Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Check. Check. [music] What's happening,

my man?

>> I'm so happy.

>> So happy to see you.

>> Wow.

>> What's going on?

>> Thank you so much. First of all,

>> pleasure.

>> Feel like uh you know, you are the

loudspeaker of the planet, man. And I'm

so honored to be here.

>> That's a very uncomfortable position to

be in. I'll tell you that. It's very

weird.

>> Yeah, I bet. [laughter] I bet. But look

at I mean, you've talked to everybody in

the planet and uh I think I'm honored to

be your first arm wrestler.

>> Well, if I'm going to have an arm

wrestler, it has to be the GOAT.

>> Oh, highly debated. Highly debated, but

uh I'll take it.

>> You're in the conversation.

>> Yeah, I'm in the conversation. There's a

couple of us, I think.

>> Um John Bzen, I don't know. How How

close do you follow arm wrestling?

>> Very little.

>> Yeah,

>> I follow you. Well, I'm I'm most

fascinated by the fact that you can't

extend your arm. [laughter and gasps]

>> You don't Yeah.

>> His arms don't straighten out.

>> No, they don't. Unfortunately, that

didn't work. Yeah,

>> it didn't work when I was trying to

fight Thor either. It kind of limited

[laughter] the extension.

But [snorts]

>> when did that start happening? [gasps]

>> So, I was uh I got into club arm

wrestling. I arm wrestled with my when I

was a kid, but I got into club arm

wrestling around like 18. By the time I

was 20 or so, we have this champion

called Crazy George. Okay. He's like a

very old, very decorated champion. And

um he famously at the time for me, he

couldn't straighten his elbows. And I

was like, "Oh man, I can't wait till my

elbows don't straighten." [laughter]

Like a silly a silly wish, right? So it

started early like I think I was like

probably like in my late 20s and it just

the the range started to shrink

>> and but how what is that from?

>> It's just pressure mostly like just the

constant pressure on the elbow joint

causes you know osteopites potentially

like and it doesn't happen to all the

arm wrestlers.

>> Have you gotten an MRI on it? I've had

three surgeries

>> to straighten them out

>> to remove uh bone and scar tissue,

>> just chip bones and stuff.

>> Chip bones. Um Dr. Pollock, bless his

soul, at the uh Ottawa Hospital has

extended my career till this age, you

know. Uh yeah, it can that's probably

one of the worst chronic conditions that

arm wresters get is uh you know if the

if the bone growth gets bad enough it

can start to constrict your nerves or

blood flow and that's when it becomes a

problem.

>> Has that happened to you?

>> 100%. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I So I was what I was probably um

it was like 2013 so like 13 years ago is

when I had my first surgery and at that

point like trying to move forward trying

to move forward and Pull it out as far

as you can go. That's it.

>> That's it, buddy. That's it.

>> Wow.

>> The left is a little more than the

right. It looks like

>> probably a little bit.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I've had two surgeries on the

right, one on the left. But in my mind,

you know, it's a small price to pay, you

know, like I'm I'm as allin in arm

wrestling as you can possibly be. And

this is our cost of admission for some

of us,

>> you know. And

>> does does that happen to every arm

wrestler?

>> No.

>> No.

>> No. Well, there's lots of arm wrestlers.

It's it's a style thing. It's a it's a

genetic predisposition. It's I rolled

the dice wrong one day and had a bad

match. You know, I think what happens is

um it's really it's the pressure, it's

the bones over time if you're and then

it's if you're a dummy and you know,

keep on doing it when you should

probably rest.

>> That probably doesn't help. And I'm I'm

guilty, you know. So,

>> like most of the greats

Anyways, it it doesn't affect me in the

sport. I I actually I call it weaponized

arthritis. [laughter]

>> Okay. Because there are ways you can

kind of make your loss of range work for

you at times.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Because there's like right, you

know, like if you're doing an arm bar,

okay, like your body resists with the

ligaments and the tendons.

>> So that starts higher for me. And I

think that there's a muscular strength

component that kicks in as well right at

the end of the range to protect you. So

I just have a higher uh you know arm

bar, you know.

>> Does it did it help you in arm bars as

well?

>> Oh god. No, it doesn't. A good jiu-jitsu

guy is still going to he's still going

to arm bar me. No,

>> it's also the bones would just snap.

>> Yeah, it's just going to snap higher.

>> Yeah, snap in bad places.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you ever try hanging from like a

chin-up bar to straighten it out? Um,

I've tried a lot of things.

>> I saw a video with you and uh Juju Mufu.

Yeah.

>> Is that how you say his name?

>> Yeah. Juji.

>> Juji. Jujim Mufu.

>> Yeah. Jujim Mufu. John Call. Yeah. He's

great.

>> He's great. He's he's such a character.

But they were rolling. They were trying

to like do some stuff with like these

big metal bars to roll out your muscles

and you were in [ __ ] agony.

>> I was like, that is crazy to watch. Like

you really can't straighten your arm.

And when they were trying, you were

screaming. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. Uh

I've kind of just accepted it.

>> Did you ever try to hang?

>> I've tried so many things, but I when I

was young, when I was 20, I was wishing

for the day that I could be like Crazy

George.

>> Wait, your arm doesn't straighten out.

>> It's It's interesting, you know, like

I'm not If I was like all about

straightening my arm, I could probably

still do it because the bone is actually

removed now. It's a sheath. There's like

a capsule that surrounds a joint. Um,

that is probably the root cause of it.

Um,

>> what is the capsule made out of?

>> I believe it's uh was it fascia? U just

connective structure. I think it

encapsulates the joint.

>> So everything is just sort of condensed

to hold the joint together.

>> I think so.

>> Wow. Yeah. It's kind of a unique study.

If you were like a physiologist or

you're studying human anatomy, you would

say, okay, like what is possible?

>> Yeah. You know, like do you know about

David Gogggins's knees?

>> I know David Gogggins. I don't know

about his knees.

[snorts]

>> His knees are so crazy. He's bone on

bone. Yeah. With both knees. And he went

to the doctor and the doctor said, "I

don't know how you can walk with these

knees. Forget about run thousands of

miles."

>> So his knees had the it's it's what is

it called, Jamie? It's like wolf

something. It's like there's a condition

when you're bone on bone for so long

where the bone actually spreads out. And

the doctor said, "I'd heard about this

in theory. I've never seen it on an

actual human being where his knee, the

bone had grown out so weird that his

knees were moving at like odd angles. So

they had to saw his tibia and move his

knee down. So he's still bone on bone,

but now he has a flat surface. And so

they cut it and then screwed it into

place and then he just rode a stationary

bike for like [ __ ] five months like a

maniac and then started running again.

Bone on bone.

>> Beautiful. Love it.

>> It's crazy.

>> He's wild, man.

>> See if you can see if you can find what

the condition is.

>> Says it's called Wolf's law. Biological

principle stating that bones adapt and

grow thicker and denser physical stress.

Is that

>> I think that's it. Yeah. And his grew

thicker and like kind of mushroomed out.

Yeah.

>> At the top of the knee because there's

nothing there. There's no And it's just

bang bang bang bang bang. So it just

kept growing out. And if you see see do

we have the images of the surgery?

>> It's

>> I know I sent it to you a long ass time.

>> Yeah. I mean it's showing a bunch of

pictures from when he was on here.

>> See that where he the fingerprints on

his shin. That's cuz he had so much

edema on his leg that he could squeeze

it and put his That's after the surgery.

>> Awesome.

>> Yeah. But look at the actual Yeah. Look

at that. The photo of what the knee

looks like.

>> That's not him.

>> That's not him. Where's

>> That's the That's like an image of what

it looked like.

>> Okay. So, they saw it and then they

screw it down in place. They saw it

slightly, you know, like a wedge off a

piece of wood.

>> You lower it, level it out, and then

screw it in place.

Yeah, for sure. I have something

similar. I've been bone on bone for

probably two decades.

>> Really? All the cartilage is gone.

>> Nothing. So when when I went and got my

surgery, uh doctor told me I have no

like there's there's nothing there but

bone. He said, Devin, maybe we can

extend maybe we can give you another

couple years on your on your career.

Maybe.

>> How long ago did he say this?

>> That was uh like 15 years ago.

[laughter]

I'm probably, no kidding, I probably

pulled off my best show ever 6 weeks

ago. So,

>> really?

>> How old are you?

>> I'm 51.

>> That's amazing.

>> And and and I have another shot at the

world title. I'm still number one in the

divisions. Uh so, you know, I'm I'm

lucky, but I think it's all it's the

doctors will say something, but it's

just not true. You can you can do

anything, you know.

>> Well, Gogggins is a perfect example of

that, and I guess so are you. It's like

the idea that you can't do something is

based on when most people quit.

>> Yeah. Uh pain is a interesting thing to

try and master, you know. Um it's it's

information and you have to be able to

live with it and work with it, but it's

it's it's good. It's good to have this

pain because it's kind of a guide on

where you need to get better. Um, you

know, the tendons and the tendonous

structures of the elbow are super super

taxed in arm wrestling and the process

of rehabilitation

and development of these structures

under great duress and trauma is is is

difficult and it it requires a lot of

time and monotony which a lot of people

aren't willing to put in.

>> I'm shocked at how much time grip

training takes.

>> Yeah,

>> it takes forever. I've I've been trying

to jack my my the those grip strength

things. The strongest I ever got to is

164. And I'm like, I want to get to 200.

I feel like in my lifetime I can get to

200. I can't get past 164. And the thing

is like I keep lifting weights with my

arms. I keep and I'm always tired. So

like every time I squeeze that thing,

I'm my hands are always sore. So I'm

like [ __ ] I got to take some time off

to see if I can get it stronger. And so

I'm doing all these wrist curls and I've

got the forearm finisher from Golden

Grip and I've got these big fat things

that I use for for cables to rotate

wrist and my hands got bigger. I'm

definitely stronger, but it's like I

don't know when to lay off of it and

when to put like how many days a week do

you do grip training?

>> What's your guess?

>> Every day.

>> Of course.

>> Every day.

>> Every day.

>> And is that the way to do it? Is that

the smart way to do it? cuz I know you

talked to a lot of those rock climber

guys and they have the craziest grip

strength.

>> Yeah.

One of the things that I'll just say

right away is a lot of people associate

grip with arm wrestling and 100%. It's

it's of massive importance. But the real

technical nuance of the sport is to try

and make the other person hold on to

you.

>> Right? So it's not necessar grip is more

like defense and added offense. But the

first step is to try and tax the other

person's grip. But

>> how do you do that?

>> Uh I think that everything there's we

are opening up like technical arm

wrestling. Okay.

>> Open it up. Let's go.

>> Okay. So I think in from my position the

opening move in arm wrestling is a

concept called rising. Like you know the

movie Over the Top.

>> Okay. This is the opening step of the

sport. And what it is is basically an

attempt to get a better grip. And if I

can the concept of making the other

opponent hold on to you, that's the

first step in technical supremacy. Okay?

If you can make the other person hold on

to you, if you can touch their fingers,

if you can get their fingers activated

and they're holding on to you, that's

they're they're less efficient.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. So, it's about attacking weakness

more than it is about going where you're

strong. So, they're the most efficient

when it's palm to palm and everything's

gripped nice and tight and as soon as

you get like out here,

>> you want the pressure uh interaction to

be unfair to your advantage. Right.

>> Right. Like if if we were to arm

wrestle, you would want to put the

pressure in my fingertips like with like

almost like a hammer type motion. Right.

So, you're basically it's almost like a

curl. It's it's more complicated, but

that's like the first way to start to

think about it. Like people think about

arm wrestling, they think about pinning

each other.

>> And this is this is a very short-sighted

way to think about the sport.

>> You you think about pulling the match

close to you. This this concept of

rising is this upwards spinning slipping

motion where the end result is you have

a better grip and anything that they try

and do it's going to go through the

weakest system they have which is their

fingertips.

>> Yeah. So it is great to have an awesome

grip. really.

>> That's not everything.

>> I I so like proportionately in my

workload, if I was doing 21 sets, 21 or

I think I do 21 working sets typically

in my workouts. Um, one of them is

dedicated purely to grip

>> every day.

>> All day.

>> All day. So, you just do them throughout

the day.

>> I I lead a very simple life at the

moment.

>> So, structure it like how do you do it?

uh my structure right now and I think

that I'm probably one of the most

dedicated arm wrestlers in the world in

time in in terms of like what I do with

my life and how much energy I give the

sport is I I base it off of a week.

Okay? So I train with the club probably

twice a week. This changes, but

typically I'm going twice a week and

these are my hardest days. And I go in

there and I just completely redline and

max out in the sport. Okay. All the the

exactly what I got to do, I'm doing at

my highest highest capacity. I I have uh

my my family where all my friends are.

So my kid uh I mean he's a pro, too.

He's Yeah, he's competing this weekend.

>> That's crazy.

>> Yeah, it's crazy. So we like we we have

our own thing where we'll hit a hit a m

like we'll train together. Um but really

two hard sessions uh a week and then

whatever I fit in with my kids. Uh and

then uh the rest of the days are like

mindless. Not just the monotony level is

extreme. Uh my wife and I I'm retired,

right? So I have nothing but time. Uh

and I try to make I just try and put

everything into it. So, like it's all

day, man. It's all day. I wake up and

I'm training like all day. Uh,

>> so these machines, like this is some of

the [ __ ] that you have. Now, is this a

machine that's specifically designed for

arm wrestling? This did this exist or

did you go did you help create this?

>> Uh, this actually machine is handed down

for me from uh the best female arm

wrestler ever to exist, uh, Leanne

Drain, uh, Johnny Roberts. So, this is

like a very standard arm wrestling

equipment. It's basically an arm

wrestling table with a cable system. And

this is super old. Okay, this this table

you're looking at here, that's like 40y

old table and it's it's still working.

But yeah, you can buy pulley system on a

table. And that's really like this is

basically all I do. I work on off of a

table, different angles, different

pressures that all just replicate the

pressures in arm wrestling. So, you have

a a fat grip, looks like a PVC tube, and

then you're using that to work your

fingertips and roll your wrists and just

get to be really strong at that position

where you're turning someone's wrist

over.

>> We call that a multi- spinner. And

what's interesting about it is you see

it's a single point attachment.

>> So, it's a little bit like Swiss ball

for the wrist. So, it's it's

>> Swiss ball. What's that?

>> You know, like a Swiss ball like uh

people do like squats on them like the

ball in the gym. People do like

>> Oh, like a Bosu ball. Is that what it's

called?

>> Bosu is like a half, right?

>> Oh, is that what it is? Okay.

>> Swiss ball is like just the big round

balls that you Okay.

>> Yeah. And you see people

>> like a yoga ball, whatever they they

call them,

>> right? You ever jumped on a Swiss ball

and done squats or anything?

>> No.

>> Okay. Well,

>> I have the the half one that I do stuff

on.

>> Yeah. Swiss ball is way more unstable.

So, it's a similar concept where it's

it's very unstable through the wrist.

Uh, and there's different wraps, but

there's like a few base moves in arm

wrestling. Probably top rolling,

hooking, and pressing.

>> And you just do [ __ ] like this all day.

>> All day. And this is in my taper. Okay.

I know it's crazy. Uh, that's the

hardest part.

>> This is in your what room?

>> This is in my basement.

>> Oh, your base room.

>> Yeah. And what you see here, this was

actually my final workout um before I

pulled the Russian champion Vitalia

Leton like six, seven weeks ago. Um so

I've tapered. Normally all these

movements you see I'm doing like a 100

repetitions.

So lots of blood flow.

>> And when you're doing 100 repetitions

like a what 50% max weight? Like what do

what do you weigh?

>> Nothing.

>> Nothing. Like 20 pounds something light.

>> Yeah.

>> Really? Is that the key?

>> I'm a b I experiment a lot. Okay. I've

done so many different systems, but this

is what I've come up with that I think

is best. So, I basically it all revolves

around these arm wrestling practice days

where um it's 100% this is what I want

my body to to to maximize about. But the

off days, the Tuesday, the Wednesday,

the it's all day just doing blood flow,

just increasing the amount of blood that

flows through the fascia, flows through

these chains in armresting motions. And

the 100 is all all I'm trying to do is

increase my circulation, especially

through my connective structures. And

movement is so essential.

Why that over why is that more

beneficial than like hard strength

training like small uh reps like low

numbers of reps but high weight?

>> So super debatable. Okay. And I've done

all of it.

>> Mhm.

>> Um what I've found is in my opinion you

only have so much energy. And this is

something we got to really weigh in

because if I could just smash, you know,

heavy stuff all the time and take steps

forward, I'd do it. But um I I've found

that you don't want to detract from the

thing that you're really really trying

to do. So anything that takes away from

your ability to do that, I think you

should look at cutting. The best part of

my training is on the table. So anything

that kind of messes with that, I don't

want to do it. I've done a lot of

systems where I'm lifting heavy, but the

thing is is they take energy, they take

resources, and what I really want to do

is prepare my body so I can do that

specific task as as good as possible.

the the high rep training heals me. It

heals me. A lot of people are like, "Oh,

that's a lot of work." And I'm like,

"It's really not." Um, it's just it's a

form of healing almost.

>> Yeah.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> Just the blood flow and the consistent

movement and high repetitions.

>> Yes. Um, it's this is highly debated,

okay? But I'm proving it over and over

over the years. I I I started doing cuz

arm wrestling is a strength sport. No

doubt about it. Uh so right away people

think, oh, you know, heavy weight and

you know, high reps is dangerous because

you're going to become an endurance guy

and it's it's going to make you weaker.

Um but when you go low, your your work

volume is tremendous. Okay? If you're

doing light light weight all day long, I

mean, the amount of total weight that

you're lifting becomes astronomical. And

I think that that adaptation over long

periods is wonderful. And you can't get

the blood flow through the connective

structures without movement. So this is

this is really why I do it. The healing

aspect, the overall metabolic

conditioning that you get. Um yeah, and

and the taper is a big part of it as

well, you know. Uh but yeah, I'm doing

all my heavy lifting specifically in the

sport. like I'm not I'm not doing my

heavy lifting at this time in my career.

>> Uh and also Joel, I'm 51 and I'm plagued

with injuries. So I have to be very

specific. I have to be very precise. Uh

yeah, this is the best formula I've come

up with.

>> And when you were younger, did you

approach it differently?

>> I have made so many mistakes.

>> What was the initial approach? Just lift

as heavy as you can. [snorts]

>> Yeah, lift as heavy as I can.

>> Well, you're a giant dude already,

right? So you already naturally have

like big bones, big genetics. So did you

powerlift? Like what did you what did

you do initially?

>> I was a a judo guy. I was a basketball

guy. Um I was a military guy. So I did a

lot of different stuff. I was very cross

trained. I even I even did um Iron Man

for a bit. Uh but

>> that's got to be so hard for you.

>> Yeah.

>> All that weight.

>> H Yeah. I so I would when I say iron man

apologies uh not traditional military

Iron Man. So

>> what's the difference?

>> Military iron man you're doing it with a

backpack you're portaging a canoe you're

paddling you're running with a backpack.

So that race you know a winning time is

you know probably anything under 6 hours

like 5 and 12 to 6 hours. So it's long

duration but it's slightly heavier. So

I'm still big even for that. like most

champions, most guys who win the Iron

Man are, you know, average size or even

smaller, but uh yeah, the side I mean

I'm a bigger person, [laughter]

but yeah, I I did a lot of different

sports, but I've I've always loved arm

wrestling. It's always been the one I've

come back to. It's you know, what is it

about it?

>> I I think that there's a lot of things

about it. You know, for me personally,

it was my first sport. Like I started

arm wrestling with my grandmother when I

was like four years old. with your

grandmother?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Really?

>> Never underestimate the power of a

grandmother. [snorts]

Yeah. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um I was a rowdy little kid

and you know in a in a with a German

mother who didn't let me do too much

crazy stuff around the house and my

grandmother used to come over and it was

a reward system. She'd tell me to do

chores and uh the result was uh I got to

arm wrestle with her. [laughter]

>> Yeah. I never beat her. That's crazy.

>> I never beat her. Uh it's it's funny. Um

her name was Leavonne.

Um and the current super heavyweight

world champion is Leavonne. So I've

never beat either of them. [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit trippy. Uh but

yeah, so I started I started young. Um I

I love arm wrestling because it's uh

it's a very safe fight. Okay. Okay. Like

I I I I love fighting. Everything in my

life has been about fighting. And um arm

wrestling is one of those fight sports

that has super low cost. Like we don't

punch each other in the head. Uh I'll be

able to walk. Uh nothing on my spine. Uh

my elbows don't straighten, you know? So

it's low cost. You can do it your whole

life. Like we have we've had world

champions in the open division who are

almost 70.

>> What?

>> Yeah.

>> What?

>> Yeah. That's cool, right?

>> That's incredible.

>> I love it.

>> How's that possible?

>> Yeah, it the hand is weird. Like this

thing here is designed for volume and it

just slowly builds. You know, the hand

is the structure is has so much

connective tissues in it, so much

tendon, and that's just it takes so long

to build. You know, age is an advantage

in a lot of ways because you just have

more time to get further in arm

wrestling. Yeah. I'm 51. I'm telling

you, I I probably competed at the

highest level and I I believe I can

still go further. Uh it's non-typical,

you know. It's non-typical. And I the

the thing that I love most about it the

very most is is the family and the

bonds. Uh arrest and clubs are special

places. Uh it's very bluecollar.

Open doors, man. There's there's not a

lot of money associated with the sport

in terms of membership fees. we we are

wrestling in each other's garages and

houses and um and it it breeds a very

tight family like I consider the club

that I train with like they're my family

like so um that's my I mean that's what

sport's all about you know

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And arm wrestling is very

conducive to that.

>> So when you say it's non-typical that

you could compete at this level this at

this age what what how old are like most

of the top guys? I'd say that you hit

your probably peak typically when you

are low 30s. So very standard, you know.

Oh, that's my buddy Pork Chop. Oh,

there's Crazy George. This is the guy.

Okay, so [snorts] this guy,

>> which one's Crazy George?

>> The dude who's down there. Uh, not the

guy in the green shirt. So these are

both my good buddies.

>> And this is the guy who can't straighten

his arms out.

>> Uh, he can't. No, he's super locked up.

Okay, but so he's doing this move called

a king's move or outside top roll. And

you see Pork Chop's wrist is bent back.

I I love Porky. I train with Porky twice

a week. Um, but yeah, Crazy George. And

Crazy George is like 160 lbs. And Pork

Yeah. And Porky's like 230 completely

tremendously jacked and strong.

>> Yeah. And Pork Chop is like a

professional arm wrestler pulling at

East versus West. Okay. That's our

highest league. And Crazy George is

[laughter] Yeah,

>> he's incredible.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's completely incredible.

Um, yeah, there's another guy from our

club, Matt Smith, against Crazy George.

I think Matt actually may have beaten

him here. This is actually the time

period of Crazy George's downfall. Okay,

so

>> how old is Crazy George in this film?

>> He'd probably be late 60s here. Okay.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. He's an absolute legend to me in

the sport. Like technically, so this

guy, he spent the first like 20 years in

the sport. Two up, two down. Okay. Go to

tournament, double elimination. And he's

and that's the Canadian champ. These

guys are all champions that you see him

arm wrestling with. And he invented

basically he didn't invent it, but there

were very few people doing this style of

arm wrestling. Okay, we call it an

outside top roll or a kings move. And he

really figured it out. And um

very difficult, very difficult to deal

with.

>> And what is he doing? He's dropping down

and lowering his body weight.

>> Yeah. So, there's many kind of main

strengths in arm wrestling. Okay.

There's uh rising strength, there's

pronational strength, there's cupping

strength, and this pronational, you see

this like this is like my favorite

example.

>> Jesus Christ. Look at that thing. That's

so weird. Show that. Show that. Look at

that. Who the [ __ ] has that muscle

armrest? muscle. So weird, right? So

that turn

>> I don't even think I have that. Where is

that?

>> Yeah, it's right there.

>> That's nuts.

>> Right.

>> That's mine is non-existent.

>> I was going to interrupt. I saw it on

this thumbnail and I was going to say,

what is that? [laughter]

>> Yeah,

>> I couldn't figure it out.

>> [ __ ] crazy.

>> It's one of my dreams to have

bodybuilders when they're, you know,

IFBB just to be doing pronator poses one

day. One day. It's the

>> even have that.

>> You got to first turn turn

[clears throat] your thumb down

>> like that.

>> Yeah. And

Pop your wrist back. There it is. See

it? There is There you go.

>> This little [ __ ] ass [ __ ] little

[ __ ] ass muscle.

>> God, that's hilar. That's gigantic.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like different

styles in arm wrestling, okay? Like they

have different roots. Okay. And the

king's move top rolling in general,

outside top rolling is super dependent

on pronation.

>> So, it's all this

>> turn twisting. Yeah.

>> Twisting. Yeah. It's it's it's

weaponized, right? We get really strong

to and and there's a relationship

between all the angles in the hand. The

hand is very complex, right? All sorts

of stuff it can do. And the main two

drivers,

cupping, we call it flexion and

pronation. And these two interact. So

when one pronates, it attacks the other

one's cup.

>> So there's a relationship between them.

So Crazy George is like the master of

pronational styles. King's move is

pronation styles. I over the course of

my career change techniques, change

techniques. Probably my best technique

is a open top roll or a king's move now.

Yeah. And and I learned a lot. It's like

the guy that one of my first coaches,

guy called Troy Eaton. Um he he could

never beat George. He couldn't be

George. We tried, we tried, we tried for

years to figure him out. So, and that

was back when I was like 20, right? So,

I've been I've been studying this style

for 30 years. Uh, and yeah, it's it's a

combination of locks and giveaways and

balancing. Arm wrestling things happen

really quickly, very, very quickly. But

it's a balancing act of of all these

different strengths. So, what is it

about you that's able to keep competing

at a very high level into your 50s?

[sighs]

>> I think uh

>> is it this approach where you're just

doing all these reps all day long? Do

you think that's a big part of it?

>> Huge,

>> huge,

>> huge part of it

>> because you're constantly forcing your

muscles to work, you're constantly

getting blood flow, and you're not

losing any strength.

>> Yeah.

>> As you get older,

>> it's a huge part of it. Yeah. the the my

my work volume probably exceeds

most people in in the sport with that.

So, metabolically and from a health

perspective, it keeps my tendons and

ligaments really functional. Um, and you

know, I'm I'm just I'm just a very

simple and obsessed person and I just I

I arm wrestle at every opportunity.

>> Don't you also have some very freaky

genetics? Like, didn't Ryan

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. What is his last name?

>> Rosner. He's This guy is the best. very

interesting guy,

>> smartest person I know,

>> geneticist. And uh he was explaining to

me how unusual your genes are.

>> We all have unusual genes.

>> Yeah, but you have like really unusual

genes.

>> Uh well, there that's that topic is so

big, you know, the genetic uh piece. I

think that what a massive piece going

forward for our species. You know, um

the mastery of genetics. Uh it's right

at the top, I think, of our highest

priorities. You know,

>> there was a thing that they were talking

about last night in the green room. See

if you could find this. They think they

might have figured out a way to end down

syndrome.

They think they might have figured out a

way with genetic engineering with

crisper or whatever they're using,

whatever modalities they're using to end

down syndrome.

>> Sure.

>> Which is wild.

>> I think that there's so many answers

with genetics, you know, from I

personally believe that uh and you know,

this is a big topic with freedom and

everything like that, but I I really

believe that when you're born, you

should be swabbed and it should

accompany your health, you know, card or

whatever. And just as a information. You

know, there's so much

>> Well, it probably will be in the future

as these all these techniques and all

this new stuff comes out. Crisper takes

a bold leap toward silencing Down

syndrome's extra chromosome. Wow. So,

[clears throat] scientists have taken an

important step towards a gene therapy

that could one day turn off the genetic

material that causes Down syndrome. Down

syndrome is a genetic condition caused

by an extra chromosome 21 and

consequently hundreds of triplicate

genes that lead to developmental and

neurological issues. According to

Washington-based National Down Syndrome

Society, one in every 640 babies in the

United States is born with Down

syndrome. That makes it the most common

chromosomal condition.

So there So what is it doing here? Um

okay. So Beth Israel Deaconist Medical

Center and Harvard Medical School found

a way to silence much of the extra

chromosomes activity in the cell at

once. Details of the research are

published in a paper in the journal

Proceedings of the National Academy of

Sciences. Wow. So what is weird about

your genes though? Ryan told me, but I

don't remember. He was He goes, "You got

to talk to him about his jeans."

[laughter]

Well, Ryan's actually got to talk to. I

mean, I'm a high school educated guy and

I I've been down to Austin several times

to hang out with Ryan. I I absorb

everything I can from this guy. But, um

I think that my genetics uh I think I'm

predisposed to um endurance actually.

>> Endurance.

>> I think so. Well, I think if you take an

overall look at my genetics, I think I

have a lot of, you know, favorable

mutations that are, you know, predispose

me to to good. But it's weird. I don't

know, man. Listen, the genetic side of

things, I I I'll sound silly if I try

and talk too much about it. I'll just

tell you that there are there are

favorable genetics for sure. you know,

there's favorable mutations and it's

amazing, you know, if you could capture

all of them from everybody and

>> you know, put it together and you never

know what

>> you'd get. Brian Shaw,

>> we've we've scanned Brian.

>> Yeah,

>> that's the thing. So, this this this

project that Ryan is doing and I I like

to help him out a little bit. Uh we've

been um we've been looking at elite

performers and with the with the goal to

find favorable mutations. And yeah, we

scanned Brian. [laughter]

>> He's in the Bible.

>> That guy's in the Bible. He's like, you

know, David and Goliath, that's they're

real people out there like that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Brian.

>> So his genetics are one out of every 500

million people. Isn't it something crazy

along those lines?

>> Yeah. He's he's completely a um an he's

he's right at the peak of human

performance right from a genetic

standpoint.

>> Just freakish freakish

>> bone density. Yeah. Everything.

>> Everything. And it's not just his bone

density, the dude's mindset. Like

there's many pieces of Brian's genetics

that that make him a champion. Um but

yeah, he has some stuff in him that that

Ryan's never seen. Yeah. No, nobody no.

He has, and [snorts] I probably

shouldn't be speaking about other

people's medical stuff, but I love Brian

and he he can sue me if he wants. Uh,

nobody has his uh growth hormone. He has

a different type of growth hormone.

>> What do you mean?

>> I don't think it's the same.

>> What?

>> I don't think he has a We're opening

something so cool cuz you talked about

the the Down syndrome and there's some

very interesting stuff with that. But uh

um yeah, Brian, I don't believe that uh

Brian's growth hormone is the same as

yours and mine.

>> What does that mean?

>> It might be molecularly different or it

might have uh You're going to have to

talk to Ryan,

>> but his growth hormone is different.

Like different kind of growth hormone.

>> He has a mutation in his growth hormone.

>> Well, that makes sense.

>> Yeah, it does.

>> I mean, he's almost 7 feet tall and he's

400 lb.

>> Yeah. And and he and he doesn't stop. He

doesn't stop. But it's weird the the

whole like Down syndrome thing, they can

do stop codes like some genes like some

mutations that you get from what I

understand there's like a stop code on a

gene. So whatever your gene is uh when

the I guess M lands on it and starts to

do its thing like there can be a stop

code or something that just stops that

gene from expressing. And I think that

that's likely what they they do with

that. They'd somehow insert a stop code.

But I mean there's people out there who

have like world records like for things

like deadlift

that don't have fast twitch muscle

according to their genetics. So it's

really weird.

>> What do you mean they don't have fast

twitch?

>> Like they have a stop code on their fast

twitch genetics

>> just naturally.

>> Doesn't make any sense at all.

>> They're just born weird.

>> Born super weird. Yet they're capable of

beating world records on the deadlift.

So [snorts]

>> wouldn't you think that deadlift is a

fast twitch thing?

>> Yeah. So I don't understand.

>> I don't know either. Um it's an amazing

field. Genetics is an amazing field.

>> Is that a lack of understanding of what

fast twitch do or is it they can

compensate with the other muscles in

some way?

>> I don't think it's other muscles cuz I

think that it would probably apply to

all the musculature. So there's

something that we don't understand.

There's something weird going on. Uh

Eddie, you can sue me. Eddie Hall, I

love you. I love you.

Uh Eddie's got a stop code

>> in his jeans

>> on fast switch muscle. Makes no sense.

>> Well, that doesn't make any sense.

[clears throat] He moves so fast.

>> I know.

>> And he hits so [ __ ] hard. That's

crazy.

>> It's crazy.

>> How is that possible? I've seen that guy

hit MITs and you're like, Jesus Christ.

>> Is this what the the Hercules mean? Not

that something else. Okay.

>> Oh, that's myostatin. That's myostatin

inhibitors.

>> Yeah.

>> So, it regulates the production of

myostatin, a protein that stops muscles

from growing too large. So with

myostatin inhibitors, they've done that

with I'm sure you've seen those

whippetss that have it. So whippets are

a weird dog. It's a very skinny fast

dog. And some whippetss are born with

this genetic mutation. That's a

myostatin inhibitor. And they look like

the Hulk. It's the cra Show show an

image of that please. It is the craziest

[laughter] that doesn't look like a real

dog.

>> That doesn't look like a real dog.

That's a crazy bodybuilder dog. Because

if you see a regular whippet, show me a

regular whippet now, please.

>> Yeah,

>> regular whippets. That's a Yeah, look at

a regular whippet. Like a real fast like

almost like a greyhound looking dog. And

then you see the ones with the mystatin

inhibitor gene and you're like, what the

hell is going on? They look like like

the most freakish bodybuilder of all

time, but in a dog form.

>> And some humans have that.

>> Belgian blues. Also, the Belgian uh

>> the cows. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And they have it too.

>> Yeah.

>> So they offer already genetic genetic

therapy that gives you folstatin.

So there's a balance between folstatin

and myostatin. From what I understand

like the key that turns on the cell for

for growth

>> is um is folstatin.

And myostatin tells the cell to stop

growing. You're big enough.

>> Right.

>> Important. Very important. And so if you

don't have myostatin, all that that

turnkey gets is folstatin. So the only

thing signal that you're ever getting

with a myostatin deficiency is full

statin. And so yeah, so they offer a

genetic therapy that increases your full

statin.

>> They offer it to who?

>> Anybody? Anybody ready to get

>> anybody with enough money with

>> Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a bunch of

genetic therapies that they've already

created. Folstatin is one of them.

>> And so that would be for powerliffters

or football players or someone who just

wanted to get [ __ ] huge.

>> I think initially it was created for

longevity because as you age your

folstatin drops and that's why people

get smaller, they shrink as they get

older, right?

>> And folstatin just helps you maintain

muscle mass.

>> Yes. So, it's it's I think it's mostly

um promoted as a anti-aging remedy, but

absolutely like you want to get your

performance up. Yeah. Increase it.

>> They're doing so many wild things now.

They've got this new therapy now for

people with disc degeneration. I'm sure

you have it. I have it. A lot of people

have it. Especially anybody who does

jiu-jitsu has it.

>> Your your discs just get worn out from

getting cranked on and like heavy

lifters always have it. Lower back

issues. your the disc is the soft

cushion in between the spinal columns

and those those big bones push down that

disc and over time and all that

compression it squashes. But now they've

got stuff that they can inject into the

disc that inflates the discs.

>> Yeah.

>> And so all these people that have been

getting artificial discs and fusions and

all the problems that come with that

because there's massive problems,

they're going to be able to eliminate

that which is amazing.

>> Super cool. Oh, so super cool. And I

tell everybody, if you could avoid back

surgery, please avoid back surgery.

Don't [ __ ] do it. There's a lot of

different way like I always tell

everybody and I'll tell everybody again.

Louis Simmons, his invention, that that

invention, the reverse hyper.

>> Yeah.

>> [ __ ] incredible. One of the the

greatest invention ever for people with

lower back problems. I have one here in

the studio. I have one at my house. I

[ __ ] swear by that machine. It's so

good. It decompresses the spine on the

on the del and on the uplift when you're

lifting up the weights, it it

strengthens the muscles out. It's like a

perfect exercise for lower back issues.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's wild when we look at

the future uh in terms of performance

and how far the age is being pushed.

like we see crazy George, but uh I think

I I I'm optimistic that all the ages are

just going to be pushed and pushed until

>> you're probably maybe not going to be a

champion until you're 60.

>> That's crazy,

>> right?

>> That's crazy. Well, that's for arm

wrestling.

>> Well, I wonder what's going to happen

with reg Well, the thing is with regular

sports, the stuff that's pushing this

stuff is performance-enhancing drugs.

you know, peptides, stem cells, not

really that's not really performance

sensing drug, but for injuries, but

testosterone, all the all these

different steroids, all these different

things. The thing about like combat

sports in particular is that you can't

use those things. They're not allowed.

But when you can use them, you see these

older athletes that have the mind of an

older athlete, but the body that works

like a young guy,

>> right?

>> My favorite example of that is Vtor

Belffort when he was in his prime. TRT

Belffor.

>> Yeah.

>> TRT Vtor was the scariest [ __ ] guy

ever.

>> Yeah.

>> Because he was jacked up with

testosterone, but he was also 37 years

old with a lifetime of combat sport

experience, a lifetime of intelligence,

but hadn't lost any speed, hadn't lost

any strength, and in fact had like

superhuman speed and strength

>> because he was

>> juicy. Super juicy. But yeah,

>> but it makes you think like, man, what

would the sport look like if that was

open to everybody,

>> right? Yeah.

>> Interesting.

>> It is interesting because there's a lot

of guys that want to keep competing, but

their body just doesn't respond the way

it used to to training because they're

37 or 38 or 39 or

>> Yeah.

>> But if you could get them on the sauce.

>> Yeah. Right. Where's the limit?

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> And why not let them?

>> Absolutely. Why not? You know, I I I'm a

big believer in tested sport. You know,

I think that that's wonderful. Uh and I

think that that'll never go away and I

think it's it's important, but I I'm

also a believer in open up the gates and

let everybody play.

>> Well, that's why I really love this

whole idea of doing the enhanced games.

It didn't really pan out the way

everybody hoped. Nobody really won any

records other than the one guy in the

swimming, but he wore a prohibited suit

that lets you swim quicker apparently. I

don't understand swimming.

>> Yeah. But I was hoping like you're going

to see some freakish superhuman

performances, but I feel like if that's

going to happen, that's going to take

years. I don't think you would get the

kind of gains that these people are

hoping to get to achieve like world

record super freak human performance

unless you're doing that stuff for a

long like you know as well as anybody

that training takes forever. Takes to

build strength, to build speed, to build

endurance takes a long ass time. You

think you're going to get strength in

three months. Like you get a little

stronger

>> for sure.

>> But you're not going to get freakish

strength for [ __ ] years. It takes

years.

>> Years. Decades.

>> Like Juju Mufu. Like how long has that

guy been lifting weights? That guy's a

[ __ ] freak.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't build this

stuff overnight.

>> And I bet he would melt a piss cup.

>> Listen, I I think

>> Not a chance.

>> Juji. Juji, look at so many. Look at

myself included. You know, I I care

about performance. This is this is what

what I care about. And so many people

fall into the same boat.

>> Look at that guy. Damn. Chance in hell

that dude's natural.

>> You know, I'll tell you, uh Juji is

probably

>> That's amazing though that he can do

that. That kind of flexibility with that

kind of mass is Look at that while

overhead pressing a full side squat or

side split. That's nuts on chairs.

JeanClaude Vanam style.

>> Juji started out tricking.

>> Okay. What does that mean?

>> Uh, like it's a form

>> because that sounds like,

>> you know what I'm saying?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] So, so he

actually started off

>> Sounds like he's picking up guys.

>> Yeah. No, no, Juji is super cool. Uh,

it's like flipping.

>> Oh, he was on America's Got Talent.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, wow.

>> It's like a form of uh like acrobatics

or gymnastics,

>> right?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, I've seen him do acrobatic stuff

and it's really nuts,

>> right? like his physical ability like it

defies what you expect from a guy with

that kind of mass,

>> right? Yeah. So, he's a com combined

like almost gymnast and bodybuilder

>> and he's probably better now than ever

and he's I mean I think Juji's in his

40s.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. And uh yeah, he's massive and

healthy and, you know, absolutely

kicking ass. Probably the most positive

human being that I've met. Well, he

seems super positive in his YouTube

videos and we have snorted his [ __ ]

smelling socks like all

>> he's got the best stuff. He does.

>> We've snorted his stuff about a hundred

times on this show. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Actually,

>> look at him doing flips. I mean, that's

crazy that a guy with that kind of mass

can move like that.

>> Juji is actually the inspiration for

this modern uh this this latest way that

I'm training. It was actually

>> really

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Juji came up to my

place uh probably about a year and a

half ago and we were just redlinining in

our two-hand work. Okay. And it was so

good.

>> Two hand work.

>> Yeah. So, okay. So, I would be

considered like the senior guy in in my

club. Okay. So, and we have this kind of

rule in the in the club just to make

things work properly. Senior holds,

junior works. Okay. So, so the senior is

kind of staying with you, floating with

you, and the junior is able to control

their intensity. So, the guy who would

normally win the match doesn't win.

>> You're just holding him in place. Okay.

Right. Like defense work in jiu-jitsu.

>> Exactly. Okay. But just to help out the

that guy typically um will do two arm

work.

>> Okay. to kind of flip the script for him

so somebody can hold like me with two

arms and kind of let me get to red line.

>> Yeah. So Juji and I were doing that like

a year and a half ago and it was so good

and it was so much fun. I was like what

am I doing you know having anything kind

of cut into this and that's when I

stopped doing heavy lifting. It was it

was as a result of training with Juji.

So this two arm work of just holding and

just work on that you feel is more

important than all the lifting and all

the other stuff. Yeah, because it's

sport specific.

>> Exactly.

>> And does he arm wrestle?

>> He does a little bit. Juju does

everything.

>> But why did you working with him make

you train differently?

>> Juji is a special guy. Um I think that

just you don't have to be the best in

your field. If you have a certain energy

or certain thing with you, Juji is a

wonderful, creative, hardworking guy and

when you get a chance to train with him,

it doesn't matter that his skill level,

it's just his level of energy is so good

>> that when we work together, it it helps

me. Um, I don't know. He I don't know

how it happened, but he unlocked this

understanding of the priority of that

training for me. I've always done it,

but never

>> How did he unlock it? I'm not not

getting it.

>> I think that our training session uh I

Okay, so what happened was Juji came

over and I normally on days that I do

table work, I do not hit the gym, okay?

Because I don't want anything to kind of

impact my my my table work. And because

I only had a day with Juji, I wanted to

show him how I was training. And at the

time, I was training very heavy. I was

training very heavy. So we did this

circuit. I showed him all my latest

exercises that I was prioritizing and

then we went to the club that night and

we had this awesome two- arm work, but I

felt as though, you know, the singles

and everything that I'd done earlier in

the day had a slight effect and I was

like, I can't ever let that happen

again. I I need to put make sure I put

all my energy into this table table

training. And it's funny, you know,

being 51 and having over 30 years

competitively in the sport, I still feel

like I learn, you know, I still feel

like I change things from from event to

event.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, that's a sign you're doing

something fun.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. As you can continue to get better

at it and continue to grow at it.

>> Key to life.

>> So, just the one training session with

him changed your perspective on that

because you just weren't performing as

well.

>> That was a tipping point. That was a

tipping point for me. So, I generally

have a protocol, like a training kind of

balance, a recipe that I'm going to

follow pretty much from event to event.

>> And this is all made by you?

>> Is made by me. Um, and I I watch

everything, you know. I I love arm

wrestling, but I'm looking at sports.

I'm always trying to get better. Um, so

yeah, it's my protocol that I come up

with, and then I'll tweak it based off

of my results. Okay? Okay. So, if I'm

doing good, not much changes. If if uh

if I don't do as good as I think I

should do or there's like something,

I'll tweak it from event to event. And

yeah, and that night uh was the night

that I decided I need to get rid of

heavy weights because this is so good.

This training is so good when done

properly. And that's the key when done

properly. Like two arm work can suck.

Like if you do two arm work wrong, it

can hurt you. It can set you back. But

when done properly, it's the best

training that there can be. Yeah.

>> Specifically for

>> super specific.

>> And do you do stuff that's not specific

for arm wrestling just for overall body

strength? Like do you feel like there's

a balance to be achieved?

>> This is uh the greatest um criticism

that I always receive as an athlete uh

is because I don't really

>> just arm wrestling stuff. I

>> I go for walks.

>> That's it.

>> I'm terrible.

>> Really? No lunges, no legs.

>> I'm trying a little bit to work it back

in in some minimal way. Uh but it's it's

interesting, you know, cross trainining

versus specialization. Uh I have a long

background in in very broad training.

Okay. Like I I once upon a time was a

fit human being in many aspects, but I

really care about being a champ, you

know, and I could probably be a

healthier guy and be able to run and

squat and deadlift. Uh or I can be a

little bit of a [ __ ] and be pulling

for world title shots is the way I kind

of look at it. And I chose that. Uh

>> wow.

>> I should do more squats. Well, my only

thought would be that if you conditioned

and strengthened your overall body, it

would just help your overall strength.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, that is the thought about

deadlifting and squatting is that it

helps everything because your whole body

just becomes stronger and it would just

n like naturally like your base,

everything, your core, everything would

just be much more your foundation would

be stronger.

>> I I hear you.

>> But I don't know. I don't I'm not

obviously I'm not an arm wrestler.

>> I don't know either. Okay. Everything.

I'm I'm playing with everything. Uh

>> this is constantly what pretty much

every reasonable person tells me and I

just I'm like I get to a point where I

do my arm wrestling work and I'm like,

"Okay, here I am.

>> If I want to beat Leavonne,

um what do I do from here?" And I just

I'm like more wrist curls,

you know? Uh look at mine.

>> What does he do?

>> Uh he's a bit more balanced than me. He

He Leavonne lifts super heavy weights.

Uh like stupid.

>> What does this dude looks like? Show me

Show me Leavonne.

>> What is his last name?

>> Sag Philly.

>> Whoa.

>> This is the pinnacle of our sport.

>> Okay. This is the guy.

>> How big is this dude?

>> He gets about 420.

[laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Oh my god.

>> I love this guy.

>> Look at the size of this [ __ ]

>> This This is

That can't be real. Is that AI? Is that

picture AI? That one right there. Okay,

that's real.

>> Oh my god, this is real.

>> I don't know, Jamie. That might be real.

He might just be pumped.

>> Leavonne is the pinnacle. Okay, we

scanned him, too. [laughter] And

surprise, he's a weirdo, also.

>> Oh, yeah. Duh.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Look at the size of that [ __ ]

>> He's in Little Rock in two days.

>> In Little Rock, Arkansas.

>> Yeah.

>> Where does he live right now?

>> Georgia.

>> Georgia. The country.

>> There's so many weirdos that come from

Georgia.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. proportionately their strength is

is not normal. Jo Leavonne is uh he

hasn't nobody has beat this guy since

2017.

He has absolutely [laughter]

flattened the field. Okay. Like

>> he's so hairy, too. He He looks like a

primitive man. He looks like a science

project. Look at the [ __ ] size of

that guy. [laughter] Oh my god.

>> Smart guy. Very cool guy. Um I I

absolutely love Leavonne. Um he has

beaten the piss out of me at every

opportunity.

>> Oh, he's so big, though.

>> Yeah, he is. He is so big and uh and

he's so good. He's like he grew up in

the trenches arm wrestling. Okay. He

didn't he's not one of these guys who

came in uh you know, he he made his way

through the world championships.

>> Yeah. He hasn't lost in 10 years, man.

>> And so he does he do different stuff

than you do?

>> He does. Um, a lot of the guys have

different formulas. Okay, Leavonne does

a lot of pull-ups, really heavy ones,

and he does a lot of really heavy curls.

>> This is the base, but he does all the

same, like we do all the same exercises,

just different different formulas. Um,

>> now when you hear the best guy is doing

things different than you,

>> Yeah.

>> what keeps you from doing what he does?

>> So, we are all different,

>> right? Um,

>> that's what he used to look like. That's

[laughter] crazy.

>> Shout out to steroids.

>> Shout out Shout out to all the

scientists out there.

>> He's very young in that first photo, of

course.

>> You know, he he slowly evolved through

the world championships to what he is

today. Um,

yeah, it's interesting when when you see

different champions, and I try and learn

from everybody. I I I watch what

everybody does. I I see what they're

doing. Uh, you have to also consider

where your body's at. Okay. I can't do

the things I did when I was 25

>> physically.

>> I just can't. I I I have I have, like I

said, I've had surgeries. Um,

>> but yet you can still arm wrestle.

>> Yeah.

>> So So obviously you're very strong in

these particular areas and it's not

holding you back at all. So what what is

holding you back? Um,

>> when you say injuries,

>> well, arm wrestling is a big thing.

Okay. There's several things that you

can kind of choose to focus on.

Probably my biggest limiting factor is

my elbow because I've had multiple

surgeries on it. I burn it out. Like at

the beginning of my career, I was more

of a a hook style arm wrestler. That's

where like the primary kind of drive in

the sport is is the flexion of the wrist

and and you're moving forward with your

shoulder and you're kind of trying to

attack the person's arm more. Uh but

over time, my elbow just got broke down

to the point where, you know, I just

don't have a lot of stability. Now, I

continue to work on it

>> and and quite honestly, my hooking now,

my this stability is probably pretty

good. Um,

I think I think that we do we all as

athletes do the best thing we think we

can and um I think that the work that I

do is very precise. Like the way that

Leavonne trains and I and and please I

don't like to criticize Leavonne. He's

the best. Okay. Um but egotistically and

arrogantly I'm going to say that my

training is more precise than his. Okay?

So, I'm working on very precise angles

where he's a sledgehammer at times, you

know, um like I'm working on very fine

angles through my wrist. Uh you know, a

lot of pronation in my style, a lot of

hand control, a lot of table time. Like

I'm doing a lot of skill-based training.

uh Leavon's base movements, his his row,

his is I mean he's doing he's doing a

180 kilo curl, [laughter]

you know,

>> two hands or one hand,

>> two, but that's a crazy but he's the the

amount of weight that he's wrist

curling. Okay, I'm ne I'm I'm never

going to get there. Okay, I'm never

gonna catch him there. Okay, I need to

catch him through something smaller.

Like I need to be able to like a pitbull

like somehow nip onto like his fingertip

and not let it go.

>> Um

>> because you're never gonna be as big as

him.

>> Probably not.

>> But do you think that it would benefit

you at all to add size to get

>> I I try it for every single prep that I

do? I'm trying in the super heavyweight

division. I'm trying to get as big as

strong as I can.

>> What do you weigh now?

>> Today I'm probably 265. And so you're

giving up a a considerable amount of

weight.

>> When I compete, I can I can get up to

300, okay, when I'm competing. Uh and

hopefully by the time I face him again,

I'll be my biggest ever. I hope when I

pull him, I'll be 310 or 320, you know.

>> And when you do that, what would you do

to get that big? Would you add a bunch

of weightlifting stuff?

>> No.

>> No. What would you do? Just eat?

>> Eat. Stay in my basement, you know?

[laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Uh,

>> but he's doing all this other stuff.

This is why I'm confused. Like, have you

tried adding all those chin-ups and all

the different things that he does?

>> I am very far down the road. I'm very,

very far down the road. I've been doing

this for like 32 years competitively.

I've gone through so many systems. Um,

while it is incredible to have a great

row, while it is incredible to have a

great um a great wrist flexion, while

it's incredible to have great legs, like

I go to tournaments sometimes and my

legs are sore, but typically the reason

why you win and lose the match is very

small things in the hand and the wrist.

Like this is typically the failure

point. So I just try and put everything

into the most valuable pieces that I

think is actually going to determine my

victory. And look at apart from

Leavonne,

>> it's working. You know, [clears throat]

this guy has raised he's raised the

sport, you know, and I continue to chase

him. I continue to try and beat this

dude. You know, my wife,

>> you gotten close. [sighs]

[laughter]

The first time, the first time he tore

my bicep.

>> Oh, whoa.

>> You know, see, see that tattoo?

>> Uhuh.

>> See, it's a cat with 415. I used to call

him a a 415 pound [ __ ] you know, in

the workup to the match. I was teasing

him and and George and it says Leavonne

was here because he ripped it. Second

round. Uh so that was the first time was

a wash. Uh the second time I pulled him,

uh I stopped him. I stopped him round

one. What does that mean?

>> So, a lot of times in arm wrestling, get

everything straight, don't move, go. And

uh to stop a match means there's no

movement.

>> So, no one's winning.

>> Nobody's winning.

>> And you don't just keep going to the

death.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> You do.

>> Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah. But I I got like

if you look up the second time that I

arm wrestled for round one. Yeah. Okay.

So, this is this is the last time I

pulled him, which is 2024. And when you

say pulled them, it means you have a

match with them.

>> Yeah, that's right.

>> Okay.

>> So, everything goes to the straps.

>> And I'm telling you, like

>> So, is that what happens when the match

doesn't work out and the hands slip away

from each other?

>> Straps.

>> Straps. Do you guys put powder in your

hands or anything? Yeah.

>> Yeah. Use chalk. But

yeah, every this sport is a strap-based

sport at this point. Like rules are

evolving in arm wrestling. It used to be

well in some leagues still you get a

foul if you if there's a slip somebody's

intentionally did it or it's a neutral

slip and then they go to the straps. Um

but yeah so we get to the straps and

this first round is the closest I've

gotten to him. Um and in this match I

think he I think he might have ripped my

spine apart like [laughter] Yeah. I

couldn't walk properly for like four

months after Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So, I'm top rolling. I get into

his wrist and uh and I'm just like I'm

in shock. I'm like I can't believe. So,

I kind of I think I had the opportunity

here to do a little bit more like to

seize the initiative, but I was in such

shock that I got him to this point. Um

you know, I'm just And then here we go.

His wrist is starting to go and so

that's a flop wrist press. And I get a

foul. Okay. For See, my shoulder goes

below the table.

>> Uhhuh. This is called decline humorous

and it's and it's a foul. You can't you

can't do that.

>> So you start from scratch.

>> Well, I'm actually on my second foul. So

that's a loss because I was being too

much of an idiot in the setup and they

and they gave me a foul and then from

here on he just he just runs me.

>> So it's a loss. What do you mean?

>> So in arm wrestling if you get two fouls

>> Uhhuh.

>> it's a loss.

>> So the match is over.

>> Match is over. But see this is best of

seven. So from here he runs me over. But

this is the closest I've gotten. Okay,

we've practiced since then. We've we've

we've gone on to I'll probably practice

with him this weekend. Um, but I'm

slated to pull this monster again. It's

going to happen one more time for sure.

It's uh it's what keeps me in my

basement. It's

>> that one guy.

>> This guy,

>> the size of that [ __ ]

>> He's awesome. Oh, he's a he's a

beautiful human. I I I love I love this

guy. He's he's the he's lifting the

sport in terms of performance, you know,

like he's so hard to deal with. Yeah.

And that's it, man. It just gets worse.

It just gets worse.

>> But, uh,

yeah. So, I I can still win in like the

115 kilo division, in the 105 kilo

division. I think I've got those ones

pretty much wrapped up. It's But but

it's the open, man. To be the best.

>> Yeah.

>> Regardless of weight. Um,

>> that's so much weight to give up.

>> I know. But

>> you giving up what? 135 lbs.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's so cool to try, [laughter] you

know? It's so cool to try. And what he

does is he cleans my life up. If it

wasn't for him, I wouldn't do all this.

>> Really?

>> Oh, no. I'd be happy being the champ,

[laughter] you know. But when you're not

the champ, you're not happy. And you're

going to do everything you can. So,

>> so even though you're a champ at your

weight class, it's the open that

>> open

>> haunts you.

>> Haunts me. Yeah, I've been there before.

Like, so in 2008, I was actually I I won

against this legendary figure of the

sport, John Bzen. He's considered the

greatest of all time. John Bzen uh

basically for 40 years, 40 years from

the time he was like 18 to like almost

60. Okay. He He went undefeated for like

basically undefeated for like 25 years.

Yeah. Ain't American. This guy This guy

super cool. Okay. Different era and

you'll see the difference. Okay. So,

you'll see that this sport has changed.

>> Can we pull him up?

>> John Bzink. John Bzink's the goat. Yeah.

Yeah. He'll be there this weekend, too.

>> And is he still competing? [gasps]

>> John is not really competing, but he's

just so tied into the sport. I think

it's inevitable that he comes back. But

>> how old is he?

>> He's like 60 61 or Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's the man. This guy's the

man. So, you know the movie Over the

Top?

>> Uh, so Sylvester, that's actually John.

The tournament was real.

>> Over. Yeah, that was a real The movie

followed the tournament

>> and John is actually the guy who won it.

>> And John's not that big.

>> No, he's not.

>> How much does John weigh

>> on a good day? On a great day, John's

like 230. But but but when he was young

and healthy, probably 195 like

>> so when he was winning

>> when he like he went like he went like

25 years around 210 lbs beating every

single person on the planet. How? He's

awesome. He's awesome. John Bzen. So

John started arm wrestling was when he

was a kid with his dad and he's one of

the first guys. Can

>> we see him do it?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying.

>> John's one of the first guys who arm

wrestling has kind of evolved in its

respectedness, okay, as a sport. I think

if you went back like 40 years and you

talk about arm wrestling, uh people

would be like, "Oh, that's cool. Yeah,

let's go arm wrestle." Like, and I'm

going to get better by arm wrestling by

doing pecs and glutes and, you know, get

my whole body strong. And John was kind

of one of the first guys who was like,

I'm an arm wrestler. I I practice arm

wrestling. I go to tournaments. I don't

need to lift weights. Okay. So, he

started young. Uh the dude's thumb is

probably like bigger than mine and he's

like, you know, 6'1, 6'2. So, he's to a

certain degree built for it. But, um

masterful technician. Um

>> so, he doesn't lift weights.

>> No.

>> So, all he did was arm wrestle to train

for arm wrestling.

>> Isn't that wild?

>> That's crazy.

>> Right. So, so it gave

>> He's not a big guy.

>> No, he's not. That's a former Russian

champion, Zhour. Uh, actually, no, Zar

might be Georgian. He might have been

Russian at this time, but he's a he's a

Georgian. Um, yeah. Yeah, John's

technique was way above everybody's. Way

way above. Uh, I remember coming up like

I had heard about John Bersink for years

before I ever saw him because, you know,