Discipline is very important, but it's

similar to the wall in learning to do a

handstand. If you use the wall one way

where you're all the time pushing

yourself off of the wall, try to catch

your handstand, you become reliant on

the wall. But there is a different

approach. We can use the wall but pull

off of it which comes from the other end

from our hands from the connection to

the ground. That does not necessitate

the wall. This is the correct way to use

discipline. You should use it as a

scaffolding as a way to get things going

like write that book. But inside the

process, you must make sure you don't

lean hard into it. You don't leave

everything for it to dictate and you

bring some playfulness, some relaxation,

some deep choice. I want to do this.

Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,

where we discuss [music] science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

[music]

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Ido Portal. Ido Portal is a

world-renowned movement teacher and the

founder of movement culture, which is an

integrative practice for developing the

self that combines physical and mental

practice. Today we discuss how anyone

can practice movement, deliberate

awareness, and even language and other

forms of communication in ways that

explore and expand your capabilities and

your understanding and sense of self.

>> [snorts]

>> Now, Ido is not anti-ex exercise or

anti-fitness, but what sets him apart as

a movement teacher and why so many

professional athletes, dancers, and

people around the world continually seek

out his teachings is his ability to show

people unique ways for how to go about

their daily life in ways that truly

expand both their mind and their body as

well as their athletic performance in

the case of athletics. Today, we discuss

unique meditation practices, ways to

build discipline and access willpower.

And by the way, what the difference

between discipline and willpower is and

how to use play as an extremely potent

way to rewire your default operating

systems in everything you do. If you

like so many other people typically

think about movement practices as for

strength or endurance or mobility, well,

today you're in for a surprise because

Ido explains how the transitions between

brain states and physical states are

linked and are fertile ground for

extremely rapid neuroplasticity and that

they can help you truly understand how

your mind and body are organized and can

function better. Today's conversation is

a truly special one. I have to be clear.

It's not philosophical. It's not

theoretical. It's a practical

exploration of movement, awareness,

language, and cognition that is rooted

in science and has real world

implications for all of us. Edo is a

truly unique human being, teacher, and

friend. And it was an honor to host him

again. So, prepare to learn. Before we

begin, I'd like to emphasize that this

podcast is separate from my teaching and

research roles at Stanford. It is

however part of my desire and effort to

bring zero cost to consumer information

about science and science related tools

to the general public. In keeping with

that theme, today's episode does include

sponsors. And now for my discussion with

Ido Portal. Idor Portal, welcome back.

>> Thank you.

>> So happy to see you again, my friend.

>> Good to see you.

>> You've aged backwards, so doing

something right now. You haven't aged at

all. What have you been up to lately? I

have many questions but I want to know

what what what's been your first thought

on waking most consistently over the

last you know year or so

the same thing always the same thing the

most important thing that exists that

there is that that's how my system

operates but getting that that change

that deep transformation in people in

myself

Why? Why are we missing it? What is what

is required

that's always been there and changes its

face, but it's the same one.

When you wake up, do you open your eyes

right away or do you ever spend some

time in that liinal state between

[clears throat] asleep and awake?

>> I'm sometimes spend some time there. I

experienced also sleep paralysis before

and various inetweens

>> where you're wide awake but the body is

still paralyzed. Yeah.

>> Yeah. When you sit a lot when when you

meditate a lot and and other practices

and somatic practices again you get to

know the territory and you can stabilize

fragile states more easily. So crossing

into that boundary of the sleep it

becomes

a slow-mo journey that you can pause

that you can you know spend time at any

point in interesting I do yoga nidra

non-sleep deep rest and there are

moments where I can feel myself falling

asleep and it literally feels like

falling and then you can kind of catch

yourself in these liinal states. Rick

Rubin once said to me, he said, "If uh

if you wake up from a like a bad dream,

a nightmare, just move your body and

look around the room. If you wake up

from a dream you were really enjoying

and you want to go back in, keep your

eyes closed." And I think what he's

talking about is more or less what

you're talking about, the ability to

kind of forward and reverse out of these

transition states. Usually the the

common way that people live and the

common person has a very

simplified

perception of these states of this the

granularity.

>> Mhm.

>> So they're difficult to stabilize. So it

becomes very binary black white sleep

you know like you you relax someone they

fall asleep. That's what happens when

there is not a lot of experience.

Everything is immediately going there.

But there is a lot of benefit in heading

to sleep and taking a sharp left just

before.

>> Tell me about that and how one might um

practice that.

>> Well, the sleep there is a kind of a way

where we can inverse the relationship.

This is the sleeping state which is

discussed in various authors and the

waking sleep and then the sleep has a

benefit because there is an openness

towards something else. So heading

directly to sleep and then navigating

from there is very powerful to reset the

system to change the schemes these rigid

schemes that we sometimes have the rigid

schemas

the models that we're running when they

become too rigid when they're surrounded

by a hard membrane

when they oversimplify

and there is this bas basian reduction

um you got to pop out of it somehow. So

psychedelics is one way and there are

other ways but the sleep every day is

key because it's a a very different

status and way of being and way of

experiencing which we experience daily

and uh we can use that transition part

and the thing itself as well. Do you

ever intentionally get up in the middle

of the night to just experience being

mostly awake but somewhat asleep just to

experience what that what that's like?

>> Yeah, I did before. Various practices

use that kind of instruction. Uh people

uh some people might be familiar with

the lucid dreaming or the the dream yoga

or the sleep yoga what is called various

practices and waking up in the middle of

the night also allows you to

appreciate something else something

different. Sometimes it happens and you

can manipulate it into somewhere and

sometimes you can do it on purpose.

Nowadays with all the longevity talk and

all this direction we we sometimes don't

capitalize on such things but uh

sometimes there is more to be gained

with a bad night's sleep than with a

good night's sleep.

>> Uh in [clears throat] 2015 to 20 I would

say 2018 I was uh very busy but I was

mourning the death of my graduate

adviser. was very close with her um

unusually close for a graduate adviser

and student

>> [clears throat]

>> um very maternal

her to me relationship knew her kids I'm

friends with her husband and kids still

and um she died in 2014 and I was really

distraught about it and someone

recommended to me uh that I set an alarm

for the middle of the night somewhere

between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. and I just

get up and and try grieving then. And at

first I thought like that sounds like

the worst thing to do. I'm like no I

have no protection then you know my

forebrain is shut down. I'm that's when

I normally would be entering more REM

sleep. And I tried it. It was very

interesting. It definitely allowed for

more intense morning but it had a very

interesting effect where I no longer had

the challenge of like falling asleep and

waking up. I had this like designated

period in my sleep. did a lot of crying

between 3:00 am and 5:00 am and in many

ways I I feel like it worked. Who knows

in some cultures it's like the veil of

suppression is is pulled back. Our

defenses are way way down in those

hours.

>> That's the point.

>> Yeah. these membranes that are

surrounding various systems inside of us

and and models that we are running that

are protecting them. This uh marov

blankets

the this filters that can rigidify and

and don't allow a lot in to simplify

things for the model so we can survive

so we can do things. And then in when

you change when you go into those times

to those change the scenario radically,

you increase your chances of opening up

of recalculating of allowing the model

to recalibrate.

And again, people nowadays that they use

extreme means, it doesn't necessarily

mean that it works. Sometimes sometimes

you need the micro dosages

[clears throat]

>> and a practice around it. repetition,

not a huge event of intensity, but a a

repeating mellow event, gentle event. I

can relate to I started a prayer

practice before sleep over two and a

half years ago, and I'm haven't been

missed a single night. Um, and some

nights I fall asleep while I'm praying

and wake up and continue. And um I tell

myself that the consistency is like

worth something on those nights cuz I I

feel sort of badly like my mind's

drifting and then okay but I haven't

missed you know it's it's all in the if

I fall asleep get out of bed and and do

it and then get back in bed. With

respect to these microp practices micro

doing as it were uh I know you're a

proponent of med meditation

um people often will talk about how long

they meditate. Do you have a practice

where you will just stop for a moment or

two or a minute or or is it for you a

meditation practice a long extended

thing and how often are you doing that?

Oh, I think there are advantages to to

both ends of the spectrum

cuz the the long meditation thing, the

the retreats, the strong determination

seats, many hours or you know many days,

they definitely [sighs]

load the trampoline and and and create

an effect. But also you become dependent

on it and it's hard later to drag this

into other areas of life which is not

often discussed and mentioned in

relation to meditation.

I didn't start to meditate because I

wanted to sit. I wanted to take the

state and to apply it into my life. So

that is a moment where you can

integrate. You can take the depth and

you can take also very short periods of

practice and apply this micro dosages

and try to get a change in the defaults

of this your state and your way of

being.

Eventually people ask me why I practice

so much is because I'm aiming for 24

hours a day.

So if you're practicing 8 hours a day or

10 hours a day, this is the unofficial

side of the practice. And this micro

practices are very helpful for that. A

good practice to do is not to take your

mind off of something like a problem

that you have to solve.

to walk around and

try to remember that thing. Try to keep

it in front of you as much as you can.

Which means the only thing you can be

blamed for is if you caught yourself

>> not focusing on that and you didn't

bring yourself back to the problem at

hand. Then you are to be blamed.

Anything else is fine. [clears throat]

>> And that is a very powerful practice. We

we can solve incredibly difficult

problems, overcome obstacles, transform

ourselves.

And we've moved away from such ways of

doing and ways of being.

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at checkout. We've done a few episodes

in the last year on or that touched on

meditation. Uh we had Richie Davidson

who's one of the like real pioneers of

studying the neuroscience of meditation

and he said that when people start a

meditation practice traditional sitting

meditation close their eyes focus on

third eye center breathing etc redirect

attention that they see a statistically

significant increase in anxiety across

that early phase and in some ways he

said that's a real value of the

practice. It's really about stress

inoculation, the stress that comes from

forcing oneself to sit still. But

eventually it does seem to give way if

people practice regularly to some other

kind of uh channel of consciousness that

is very useful to apply in the rest of

one's life.

>> Sounds [clears throat] like that second

channel is the one that you're after.

>> Yeah. this anxiety, this under reduced

state in a way, the failure to adjust

the membrane, this protective membrane

around the model, whatever model it is,

if it's the body scheme, if it's the

emotional schema or or the conceptual

schema, you're in an underreduced state.

So everything bombers you and you're

bleeding resources metabolically, right?

And that's anxiety. That's why all

almost always anxiety over a long

duration will turn into depression.

You're bleeding resources.

So adjusting simplifying that's a

critical moment. Of course lowering the

bar of the task is a very important

tool. Microtasks

and I'm not just talking about the

classical sitting meditation. I'm using

everything. For me, it's all the same

tasks with tennis balls, with a with a

stick. I I'll use anything because my

intention is not to get the success in

the specifics, is to get the

transformation

much deeper. So, it's almost irrelevant.

I'll use whatever I need to use to get

that going.

And so I think meditation many ways

sometimes becomes too dogmatic in that

sense.

>> Yeah, we've already touched on sort of

liinal states transition from sleep to

waking or waking to sleep and trying to

just catch oneself and pause in those

like you said maybe reverse maybe pause

there hover there. I'm fascinated by

this peculiar place we are with science

where we know a lot more about sleeping

states can describe phase one phase two

phase three slow wave deep sleep REM

sleep the fraction that you get

depending on the night before vivid

dreams versus non vivid dreams

we know barely anything scientifically

about waking states in comparison to

sleeping states I mean we talk alpha

waves beta waves theta waves but It's

very rudimentary. Like right now,

I assure you there's no scientific paper

that could describe the state that we're

in. We could say, oh, the these alpha

waves or these, you know, percentage of

activity in one brain area or another. I

think that the definition of different

waking states is going to come into

science from outside of science. someone

will study it. But I've been waiting for

somebody to say like this is uh like are

we in stage one of focused attention

right now? Stage four. Nobody can ex um

point to this which is should bother

people. Like we're we're really far

behind even a descriptive understanding

of where we're at. Like I feel calm

right now despite drinking caf so much

caffeine. You're clearly externally

calm. I imagine you're internally calm.

But what would you describe like your

state? How should people start to peel

back the layers and get a better

understanding of the state they're in?

Because I think there's real value to

this in waking states. And I don't have

a language for it, but you've spent a

lot more time thinking about mindbody

states than I have. I think there is a a

a m a mistake or a direction that we

took asking who we are

instead of asking what we are which can

really serve this. There is a need of

almost a a rudimentary map of what is

what is needed what is here how do I map

this what am I observing even you can't

refine what you can't define but not in

the sense of this verbal definition but

some kind of an internal definition some

kind of a boundary drawn some kind of a

selection

the selected thing the selected state

the differentiation

without this

what am I seeing when I look inside

listen to your body

I don't believe in that

>> portal doesn't believe in listen to your

body right what do you listen to

>> what are you listening

>> your heartbeat your what does that mean

>> it's corrupted you're too corrupted to

listen to your body

>> those are the most corrupted people

usually

>> the people who are saying listen to your

body.

>> Yes. I think it that whole verbiage

comes from this notion and the quite

pioneering although I would say somewhat

outof-date book the body keeps the score

I think is it was an important book best

title of any book you could imagine in

the psychology space because it's so

catchy um and I want to give proper

respect to um Bessel [clears throat]

for doing that book and it was early but

I think that embedded in people's minds

that like experiences we have live as

pain, discomfort or blockages and that

the [clears throat] solutions come from

releasing that pain, discomfort and

blockage. Erggo, if I'm feeling good,

things are moving through. I'm making

progress. I'm moving away from that

historical bad thing. And if I'm feeling

it again, it's still alive in me and it

needs to be released. That's the kind of

premise.

>> Yeah. And there a lot of data to support

that chronic stress can harm the body

and so forth. So those things those

ideas sort of took off. But I also agree

they sort of they've kind of hit a wall

in um 2020 or so. We go well what like

what do you mean? Well it's in the

fascia really like is it in the fascia

or are we just like talking about

fascia? And and I love all of that stuff

as an exploration but I think we are at

a place where we really need to ask

better questions.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's it it sounds

very corrupted again. And we know so

much about

the framing of things, excitement

versus, you know, very negative states

that it's so similar. It's so close

that it cannot make sense. We cannot

work from that place. And and also

working from our likes and dislikes.

What do I want to do? We just watch this

thing. You just need to do what you want

to do. I believe that's the last thing

for you to do.

>> Right. Um, you know, I was referring to

before we came in here, we watched two

short films. The first one is a one that

was u put out in 2014 about this guy,

real life guy slow-mo. uh we'll put a

link to it who uh guy who essentially

gave up his life as a physician and say

rollerblades very slowly on one leg down

the boardwalk in Pacific Beach San Diego

to touch into

what he describes as a mild euphoria and

altered state he's totally sober clearly

very very smart and the other film we'll

talk about several times uh which

hopefully will be out in the not too

distant future so we can all see a

beautiful film that's being made about

IDO and movement culture called the

architecture of practice. Correct.

>> Internal architecture.

>> The internal architecture of practice.

Excuse me. Um trust me folks, you want

to see this when it comes out. It's it's

visually beautiful and content uh rich.

It's it's spectacular.

>> Thank you.

>> There's something really special there.

Uh for sure. But I wrote down actually

play versus discipline. I think for some

people it would be helpful

to try and uh operationalize a bit of

what we're going to go to today. And I

know you're not a fan of like morning

routine or this or that, but I can

imagine walking toward a practice of any

kind, a workout of any kind, making

scrambled eggs

as either I'm going to approach approach

this from a with a sense of play or I'm

going to approach this with a sense of

discipline. I'm going to try and find

some friction, some edges that force me

to rewire something. Now, play can help

rewire, discipline can help rewire, but

of your waking hours, what percentage of

time do you spend in kind of a playful

explorative state, like kind of keep it

light and loose versus, you know, I know

you're also a believer in like there's

really value to putting up mental or

physical or both corridors so that your

system, your whole system improves

because at those friction points is

where plasticity

can be triggered. I think both of these

things and also the relation to

motivation

in in both of them are

required scaffoldings

that we have to use at certain points in

time but are not the essential

will

that connection to what we we don't know

nothing about that we have researched

that deeply in v various spheres but

often we just replace pure will with

discipline

or with motivation but once I motivated

myself I don't need will anymore and if

I dis if I discipline myself into doing

something I also hijack the opportunity

playfulness it brings a direction and a

flavor of something else a different way

to interact with something. How do we

start to look at that? What is the basic

requirement? I don't want to do this.

Without this requirement, I can't

research will

now if I hijack it, if I take the

process and I distort it, I use

discipline,

then again, I'm out of the game. Or if I

motivate myself, same problem.

Playfulness try to walk a different path

a little bit.

Maybe it's not it quite. It's not the

will that search for a will that you

know many authors and and practitioners

have looked for because it's so elusive.

But it's definitely something to

cultivate and we've talked about it the

last time we met

and it brings about so many positive

things. I think people should first

develop discipline

and use motivation and also research

playfulness which is a lot more tricky

for people uh these days.

It brings with it

incredible benefits. The aesthetic

intensities that are missing from our

lives, awe,

curiosity, this deep sense of curiosity,

these things can allow us to totally

transform the emotional schema which is

stuck rigid.

This model of ourselves that is often

times

rigidifies all the way to depression.

The most tricky situation of all the

total bankruptcy of that budget of those

resources.

So something like awe

which happens also in psychedelics.

Isn't this a huge part of the

psychedelic thing? What about

experiencing all regularly in a directed

targeted and practiced way?

It can be cold showers and hot shower an

experience on the sensory level. It can

be something that is more related to the

environment like sky gazing. Incredible

practice. 10 minutes a day. Your eyes

cannot grab onto things. So and it can

be and very important conceptual

or reading poetry or certain types of

stories or literature touches that so

all of this comes along with playfulness

our interaction with things I treat this

as a playful thing

>> so if I think about it it's almost

always present because it allows me not

to rigidify myself in front of the

challenge. I'm working with athletes or

work in cinema or do some project or

work with a government body or or a

military organization. I bring

playfulness.

Playfulness allows me to go much

further, much deeper. My discipline

wouldn't get me there.

>> It got me certain places. Who got there

to that place? I discovered that it

wasn't me because I use discipline. So,

it's often leaving you kind of out the

totality of you.

>> I am very very intrigued by this play

versus discipline uh thing. So many

years spent I wouldn't say punching the

clock but you know there just things you

have to do because experiments have to

be done in this time in this way. one

can develop a a real sense of an ability

to push through and to do things and

beautiful stuff can come out of what I

call chop wood carry water. It's just

like phase is like okay we're just going

to chop wood carry water but this play

thing is really powerful. I had this

experience when I lived in San Diego. My

lab started there and I I used to

commute really far to work cuz I my home

was um in an area that I really liked

and that I could afford far from campus

and the traffic was just brutal. Anyone

that's ever driven in San Diego, these

big wide eight lane freeways and and I

like listening to music, so I would

drive and I remember one morning just

being so frustrated with the drive even

though traffic was moving. And I've only

had this experience once and I just

decided I'm gonna just [clears throat]

slalom the car to work. And I wasn't

speeding. I'm like slaloming the car.

I'm listening to music and I'm like this

is the way to go to work. I can remember

this one commute is a real standout

experience in my life of like and I

thought why don't I do this all the

time?

>> The old frog crosses the street video

game.

>> Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, I'm just,

you know, and I get to work and I do

thing and and this was one instance. I

don't think I've ever done it again. And

I like to drive, but I never

deliberately turn on like I'm going to

take an ordinary experience that I do

every single day that usually is kind of

like loathe or mildly irritated at

traffic. I'm just going to enjoy this

experience. I think now that it would be

so great to just be able to apply that

to all these different little

transitions. Oddly enough, I also have

flashbulb like memories of being in

Yusede where I've spent a lot of time.

I've hiked a lot of the peaks in Yusede.

I love it. I live lived and worked up

there when I was in college and I just

adore. You know what? I remember the

great vistas and great peas that I had

urinating in the woods. I like have like

flashb memories of like and there's

something there. I think it's just the

calm and relaxation like oh like I'm

just a creature peeing in the woods, you

know. And uh as one does, you know, when

you when you count just thinking like

this is awesome. I have these like my

life is great. It's so weird that these

micro experiences that occupy like 10 to

15 seconds or a minute depending on how

much water you drink, right? One commute

could grab like real mental real estate

in our brain. There's something there.

And I know people are probably like,

"This is crazy." But I think most people

would probably describe like kind of odd

flashbulb memories that they have of

things that are kind of trivial.

>> Did you notice that the the quality of

those memories

>> cuz you recall them and it they it has a

flavor and a texture and a resolution

which is different than other things

which sometimes are should have been a

lot more detailed. And it comes and

goes, but we can become a lot more

deliberate about it. And it represents a

certain presence

in that specific scenario of a

heightened it's a heightened presence

thing. Why? Those are questions. But

playfulness opens the door for that.

Some of my best seats, my best

meditations were using a playful

approach.

Similarly to how you navigate the

traffic, [gasps]

you can use it writing your book.

>> I tried that. It was very diff I will

tell you it was very difficult because

there's aspects of the book that are

very technical. There are aspects that I

really want to get communicate things in

a certain way. I definitely tried to

relax myself. Um Cal Newport who's a

sort of a guy who's a big proponent of

of deep work uh staying away from

technology to you know writing by hand,

typewriter, this kind of thing. He said

uh and I tried this. He said to approach

work with um kind of a languid

intentionality kind of relaxed but with

a direction. I tried it. I have to

scruff myself and bring myself to it

even though I want to do it and I just

like have to like like I imagine I'm

like doing this

>> but that deep belief

>> Yeah.

>> is already a self-fulfilling prophecy

cuz you perceive yourself as that

person. This is the way for you to do

things.

>> Mhm. And I'm similar but I've glimpsed

something else.

Yes, I I also I'm the disciplinary

person. I'm a person of great work ethic

and

this is how I came about. But then I

discovered it doesn't matter because

how you write that book using that

approach it leaks into your words

and it's a different way of doing

things. you're not going to write

doniote in this way. So I appreciate

that and I also want to say come back to

that thing this scaffolding the the fact

that we have used discipline for such a

long time is very positive we need that

first thing is to get things done I'm

the practice person I'm the met person

you do it or you talk about it so

discipline is very important but it's

similar to the wall in learning to do a

handstand if you Use the wall one way

where you're all the time pushing

yourself off of the wall. Try to catch

your handstand.

You become reliant on the wall. Notice

what I said. You push yourself off of

the wall. But there is a different

approach. We can use the wall but pull

off of it. Not quite push oursel off of

it but pull off of it which comes from

the other end from our hands from the

connection to the ground. that does not

necessitate a wall. So I can pull myself

when I feel myself falling forward later

on. This is the correct way to use

discipline. You should use it as a

scaffolding as a way to get things going

like write that book. But inside the

process, you must make sure you don't

lean hard into it. You don't leave

everything for it to dictate. And you

bring some playfulness, some relaxation,

some deep choice. I want to do this.

It's so elusive.

It's so tiny. Our life didn't leave any

room for it anymore. We don't even

recognize when will come to visit us.

And here is the big shocker. It was for

me that I discovered one does not

develop the will.

The will never gets developed.

It's only get exposed.

Discipline gets developed. That's what

we mistaken will for. We call it will

will power etc.

But when a child is born with a problem,

when you're facing such a situation,

discipline might not be enough for you

to do what is necessary. or when a child

is born normal and you simply don't feel

love for that child that occurs a lot

what do I do now do I discipline myself

I need a different quality and I need to

research it and I need to open up space

for it in my life space to practice it

because it's not going to come from

somewhere else and the practice will not

develop it but it will expose an

invisible thread it's a sequentiality

I always do what I said I'm going to do,

but not by disciplinary action, but by

having a beautiful evasive sequence like

you moving around the traffic, finding

your way there. You never stopped

looking for the best route. It's a very

different approach than just pushing the

gas pedal forward.

>> Yeah. What's interesting is the traffic

example, while trivial, it hopefully

describes a process that people could

relate to. Not only did I not lose

energy from it, but I might have even

picked up some energy.

>> Beautiful.

>> And the commute was exactly the same. So

there's something in that experience and

I and you're explaining it beautifully.

This distinction between the will,

willpower, the expression of the will

and then discipline. Maybe we can define

the difference a little bit more so that

I can understand

when I'm in

discipline mode versus um exposing

willpower. You said you can build

discipline, you can't build the will.

The will is a is a fixed unit but a

hidden one, a very elusive one. [snorts]

uh we can discuss it more and we will

expose some things but we will not be

successful in a binary fashion. We won't

get it. The only way to get even a

critical mess with that concept is self

practice looking for that quality in

your life and I already mentioned that

the first requirement is to do things

you don't want to do which you're also a

big believer in from a variety of

reasons.

All of them are not as important as this

because they go to serve this layer,

this corrupted self, this success in

this area. This is not important. What

is important is you not all those

things. And will is actually that

representation of you. The totality, the

harmonious combination of all that you

are comes together and hence you can be

reliable. You have a sequence. You found

a way. You cannot push this forward. You

cannot force this. So you need first a

situation which you cannot you don't

want to do. So I tell people here is the

first requirement of this new practice

practice of will.

You have to wait for a moment. You don't

want to do the task. That's the first

thing. Not to go to the ice bath now.

This is a different process and will get

you somewhere else. Come up with a task

that only sometimes you don't want to

do. It's a crucial difference. And wait

for that moment. In that moment, catch

yourself. And there you have to

investigate. There there is a very fine

little game. It comes back to that

playfulness that we have to play. Do not

force into it. Don't jailbreak it. Don't

push hard into it. Second problem, do

not motivate yourself to do it. Don't

put any YouTube clips. Don't mention

slogans.

Relax yourself.

Essential component. Do not rigidify in

front of the task. If you do, lower the

bar. Find the task that has this right

dosage and build up gradually and

slowly. I like to use things like

difficult physical postures

like holding your arms out for 5

minutes. It's enough. Just straight arms

out. Some people can take it further

or 3 minutes or doing a horse stance and

then wait for a critical moment when I'm

tired. A lot of these things are very

useful. So I've grown to practice those

things before I at the end of the day

when I'm checking out that is the moment

where I bring it about. And then you

have to research and you have to find a

thread, a way to get this going again

and again and again with this gentle

quality, this playfulness, this softness

and slowly increase the bar. What will

you discover? Your will is sufficient is

like a mosquito's fart. That's the power

of our will. Even incredibly powerful

people because they only use discipline.

So their will is totally they don't know

how to identify it. They don't know how

to put it together. So you got to do

stuff that is so easy relatively easy

that you're not interested in doing it.

And that's why we don't develop will. So

these are some of the discoveries that I

I had with myself and trying to bring

about this quality because like you I

did a lot of stuff with powering

through. I think the value of a physical

practice um is probably obvious to

people or more intuitive like okay um

for some people ex exercise working out

movement practice perhaps there'll be

days when they want to do it there'll be

days when they don't want to do it if I

understand correctly

the idea is to get right up to that edge

and then instead of throwing oneself

across that threshold or getting enough

caffeine in yourself to get across cross

that threshold or doing hyper cyclic

hyperventilation breathing to get all

the things to kick up adrenaline talking

about getting right there relaxing and

almost letting yourself sort of drift

across but am I pushing a little bit am

I giving myself a nudge like to keep

going okay so I don't expect myself to

just default into it okay do you still

have to do that I mean you've been doing

movement practice many years are there

days when you feel that resistance And

you have to kind of nudge yourself

course if I don't feel the resistance I

don't have will. I don't develop will

and I don't have will. The whole point

of will is that it only comes to visit

and it's only necessary when there is a

resistance.

>> So you see those as opportunities

>> as well.

>> Mhm.

>> As well. But this is this is the trick.

But the to answer your question, my

answer might be a bit trickier than what

most people assume.

They want the remove of the the removal

of the problem and will that's the whole

point of will

>> right not to remove the problem and not

to also jailbreak it

and you've described it beautifully

and imagine even that clip that you saw

or over the last years things that you

saw me you see me do they're not

impressive anymore

I can still kick up here and do a one-

arm and stand in the center of the room.

My body looks different by choice and

how I move is different because I

discovered this is not going anywhere.

I've already been there. I've already

done that. I've used motivation,

discipline, this quality. I'm looking

for something much more powerful, but

much more gentle as well. So I had to go

back to baby steps and to play that game

that you you just mentioned beautifully,

the edge. Stand at the edge

and it has to be an edge. You're almost

not sure if you choose that task whether

it's difficult enough or not. It's not

the only practice. It's just another

flavor that is important for us to

practice. I still practice my

discipline. I still practice extremely

difficult things. But it's an important

flavor that I missed.

>> Mhm.

>> And I think most people are missing it.

They have no interest in doing it. It's

too easy. They don't understand the

point is not in the task at all. The

point is is in the quality that

develops, the attribute that develops

inside of us, which is one of the most

important basic attributes. I want to

know when I'm going to war with you,

whatever war that is, that you're

reliable to have a word.

And that cannot rely on caffeine or on

on discipline. And and you can play this

game. I'm right now extremely

jet-lagged. So I'm I'm very tired. So I

play this game with myself. I I have

this little internal smile here in my

jaw inside. I I I play I pay attention

to what is going on in the internal

realm, this interceptive thing and I

play a game. Before I used to kind of

push against it, harden against it and

push through whatever needs to be done

and so this way of practicing taught me

a lot.

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subscription. Yeah, I'm I'm very

intrigued by this this notion of of play

because I do think that it's energy

conserving if not energy building. And

it's kind of incredible, right? I mean,

we know that neuroplasticity is

triggered by friction points, you know,

some level of autonomic arousal. How why

else would the nervous system change if

it can do what it needs to do? You need

a change in the millu, the chemical

environment. But if one can get it from

play, that's awesome because the other

thing takes literally adrenaline,

norepinephrine. Yes, we love dopamine,

but that little cocktail of

catacolamines as we call them, that is

energy. That's chi. That's the It's

energetically costly to be in that

state. Play is a different cocktail. It

includes some of those, but it includes

some other stuff, too. We know this

neurochemically. So, I'm not just

speaking in metaphors. And it does seem

to open something up. And it's a sounds

so subtle. I'm going to be playful about

this really important thing, this

challenging thing versus I'm going to

just, you know, I'm going to just drill

into this. the rigidity that comes about

is is almost instantaneous

>> and it's more representative of you in

the way that I see this word you self I

because again that that the use of that

cocktail that the jailbreaking

is a very it removes something from

engaging it it numbs something. So here

this is the most crucial point. We get

to transform ourselves

by choosing to do something deeply

saying I want to do this in the moment

that you don't want to do this to find

that paradoxical thing. It's a

multistability. You have to be able to

glimpse these two things to feel this

emotional contradiction and to remain

functional without collapsing to remain

functional and moving forward leaning

forward into the direction. This is a

critical way of doing this is a a big

passion of mine in the last years cuz I

realized it's so crucial such a missing

component

and having listened to you and and and

various people that you brought along

really helped me helped me see it to

understand it to look at the scientific

side and the anatomy and the and the way

that we are constructing these models

and to see if that match matches my

experience and what exactly is missing

and where am I lying to myself in that

sense. So it turned out to be a valuable

insight.

>> It's come up before on a few podcasts

and you may have heard this but I'll

just briefly describe we have a finally

thanks to the work largely of my

colleague Joe Parveves at Stanford. We

have a neurological understanding of

tenacity and willpower and the

plasticity that is this anterior mids

singulate cortex that gets activated

when we don't want to do something and

we force ourselves to do it and that

structure enlarges and it becomes easier

to access and so we you know in that

sense the the discipline piece really

can be built up

>> definitely

>> the recognition that oh I don't want to

do this feels a lot like the I don't

want to do that and I was able to do

that that anterior midsulate cortex can

go to work on a number of things it's a

it's a real thing. We don't yet have the

coralate structure for the play piece.

>> Definitely

>> and it may be distributed, right? We

always want to think there's a

structure, the amygdala, fear, inter

midsulate cortex, tenacity, but these

are circuit phenomena. But but it would

be so nice to be able to find a neural

coralate because there does seem to be

something very special about people in

their 70s, 80s, 90s who

>> they're in the longevity game clearly

and they're taking great care of their

bodies and their minds, but there's a

playful spirit in there that

is never discussed in this whole

longevity thing, but it's clearly very

very crucial. hard to research that of

course from obvious reasons it's much

more easier to to research this

discipline right

>> to be playful

I I want to I want to give something

positive we all meet this quality even

many of us believe I never am in this

state investigate

>> investigate into your past like you

mentioned this moment of driving but I I

want to tell you something.

Investigate yesterday. It was also there

for moments. For brief moments, you can

always and by studying this, you would

help yourself because it is always

present. It's almost guaranteed to be

there even in extremely depressed

people. Part of the problem of

depression is this rigidity

to change to to recognize these positive

moments, right? and to to to transform

the model. So we don't end up harvesting

it but it's there. It's an important

thing because without

learning the flavor and the texture of

that we have no chance of approaching

that developing this playfulness this

will this softness about things that can

do a lot. There's a third bin which I

think people default to including myself

right I think about discipline will or

laziness sloth and wasting time. Right

now we're talking about using discipline

or a mode of play to do something. These

days it seems a lot of having a good

life is about not doing certain things.

mostly for most people not having your

consciousness and your body pulled into

algorithms. You know, I'm a fan of

social media. I learn there. I

[clears throat] see you there. I try and

teach there. But there is a way in which

our body shape, our mental shape can be

structured around this wheel of infinite

stimuli. That's how I think about it

now. Now when I go into uh social media,

I think about it as a wheel of infinite

stimula. Like a rat in an experiment. If

I want to keep that rat engaged, just

give it this, give it that. Doesn't like

this, give it that. I mean, that's the

algorithm. I try and see myself in it so

that I can navigate it with some

intentionality like, oh, this is

interesting. I'm actually quite

inspired. I'm not just saying this by

the content you've put up over the

years. I really think hard about the

I've gone and looked up authors. You

know, your philosophers and many things

I don't know. So I I follow up on those.

In the domain of strength training,

there's this guy Tom Havland. I think he

was used to be Australian special

forces. He only posts from the back. He

doesn't disclose his identity. Very

large guy. Um doing zer squats, you

know, where the bar is in the crook of

the elbow with, you know, 500 plus

pounds with pauses and it's very, you

know, if you really impressive feats of

strength. So I see and learn and

inspired by things I see in social

media. Sends me down the path of

learning. I didn't even know what a zer

squat was until recently. It's kind of

cool. Like I know the crooks of elbows

could hold that much. And the core

bracing is really interesting. But a lot

of my life these days is about no this

is not a stimulus space I want to spend

time in. I'm 50 now. I don't know how

long I'll live. Hopefully a long time.

But allocation of energy is like 90% of

the game of life, right? Maybe more. So

when you think about practices for

resisting

doing something, the no-go as we say in

neuroscience, not go tasks, but no go.

How do you think about pulling back in a

playful way? That's a little bit harder.

Beautiful question and very important

thing to to look at to examine and I I

can offer my my personal experiences

that's the only thing that I can but

again the pullback deleting the app

you know take something off throwing

your phone on the rooftop

>> done it done it

>> that's why I mentioned it cuz you told

me last time we met

>> yeah when I used to have to write grants

I would either give my phone to my

students early days and I'd say if I

asked for that back before 5:00 p.m.

today, everyone in lab gets a $100 bill.

I didn't have the money to do that. I

didn't ask for it back by 5 or throw it

on the roof and go get it later. And

this action, I'm not against it. May

maybe it sounds like it's jailbreaking

something, but it's a required moment.

One of the first thing with will

is the recognition that we're not in

contact with it that we don't possess

and we should verify it for ourselves by

trying to do things

which are definitely possible and we

can't we can't do them.

>> Mhm. [clears throat] How do I pull back

in this way? Isn't this good to delete

the app?

It's a way of

paying upfront.

It's painful and it's costly. It's

expensive. It's a required thing. Part

of me say

I'm not sure I'll be here in a few more

moments. I'm going to take this action.

It reminds me of I have great fear of

heights.

>> You?

>> Yeah. It reminds me when I went to

bungee jump the first time with friends

decades ago in Greece and I'm climbing

up there and I'm watching down this tiny

swimming pool from the crane and I

realized in that moment there is no way

I'm jumping down and the other part of

me realized there is no way I'm climbing

down

the girl screaming down there you know

and I I just stood there and I just I

just kind of threw myself forward. I

jailbreed it years after I've I redone

it with a different quality.

I softened into it.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> And I found a way to

come down feeling this great

pain, physical pain, and at the same

time the multi-stability feel a

softness, a wave of softness passing

through me as tiny as it was. So when

I'm pulling back it's very important

that I interact with this action also in

that way that I don't force myself in a

sad mazoistic way that I don't do this

action from that place maybe it's the

beginning of the process maybe it's

something that is a required stepping

stone something that you have to do but

later you learn to soften into it and

eventually you can leave the app you

don't delete it and it's there and you

keep on softening as it jumps calling

you back again and again and again and

you've developed this feedback. You've

changed, you've transformed your model

and there is a new reaction

to that stimulus and you relax. When

when the stimulus calls your name, you

recognize it, note it, and the first

thing that you do, you soften yourself,

you relax, you put a little smile on,

and only then do you go back to the task

at hand. You change the way instead of

saying no, I don't want to go back into

social media now. I want to work on my

book and forcing yourself back. You take

another extra step.

Oh, it's calling my name again.

I note it. I recognized it. I soften

myself. And only then do I go back to

the test at hand. The outcome would be

totally different. Millions of times

forward. Done again and again. you would

be amazed by the difference.

>> I absolutely get what you're saying that

there's something about paying attention

to the subtle trans subtle ripples like

they're these ripples and that language

of the subtle ripples of consciousness

makes it sound like I'm trying to be

poetic, but I I really can't find a

better language than these like subtle

ripples. It's the same thing, I believe,

as noticing the transition between

asleep and awake. Just a little bit more

each day. Maybe some days you miss it.

You just pop up and go into the day and

then you I missed I missed the there

were these ripples in between. But

catching them, this is one of the most

important attributes

also in the physical body that I believe

is totally missing from our physical

modern movement, culture, physical

practice. Granularity. I call it bodily

resolution in the application to the

body. Notice I'm not talking about

mobility or definitely not about

flexibility. There is a certain

refinement and with it a certain

complexity

that if it's not challenged by novelty

and by certain qualities of attention,

there is a deterioration of the model.

There is a simplification. There is a

hardening of the body schema. It becomes

more black and whitish and living in

this physical form becomes hell.

[snorts] The same thing happens in the

emotional schema in the emotional model

of ourselves. And the same thing happens

on the conceptual or intellectual

abstraction model.

The same thing happen in the social

schema. The same thing happen on the

spatial schema. If you don't continue to

make it detailed and to appreciate the

details, you will have a deterioration.

You're moving up or down. There is no

status quo that it's never stable.

Hence, guess what? Most people going to

the gym, doing these runs,

they totally lost something and they

don't even know. They're not as they

were as children. They don't look like

that. Kung Fu master in Beijing, 5:00 am

at the park walking with the stout of a

a child. We like to mention blue zones,

but we don't you don't look like the

blue zones. We like to mention the

importance of muscle mass for longevity,

but which muscle mass are you talking

about? Not that muscle mass. It's a

different quantity.

So we kind of moved away from those fine

things and the refinement of them is

very very important emotionally the

emotional granularity

to recognize it's so important.

Depression puts everything into the

black and white thing. So it's the

extreme and then the other side is very

high resolution of emotional

appreciation and perception

that can turn against you but only when

the conceptual layer comes and

manipulates that information. But as

long as it stays within the

nondiscursive

the the raw Yeah. the raw thing coming

from this alostostatic

system. The the the the the

way that we define our state like

poetry. That's why also reading poetry

helps and and reading literature helps

in this way. It makes you a lot more

complex. And now you discover it's not a

good or bad thing anymore, but you're

playing a different game. And here is

the playfulness back. Mhm. Because I'm

even playing game with that.

Oh, I'm I feel bad. I feel good. I feel

neutral. That thing starts to open up. I

abandon this and I go back to the body.

And that's why I like to send people

back to the body. The eye is a lot more

this than what we think it is,

especially meditators, etc. is not up

here. And of course they're talking

about it the way of the heart and you

know the har the danten etc. But

you can see when somebody is

embodied

there are signs there are cues to it in

the way that people move in the way that

they are here. [snorts] And I I often

don't see those those those clues and

then there is a great deterioration. So

I I don't care so much about structures

these days about muscle mass about you

know the joint protective things the

connective tissue or whatever because I

believe the model deteriorates way

before and the consequences come after

once the model has degraded the

simulation now we are in trouble and now

the the the structural effects are just

following that years forward decades

forward and then we discover it it's too

late

words are dangerous

like the spinal column. Do you know how

many spines this destroyed?

Countless. It's not a column. And

treating it like a column destroys our

spine. It's the way that I model myself.

Even in my words, I can I can sense that

I can feel that different languages have

different words for those things and

clues are there. the lack of

appreciation of fine micro actions

inside the torso in between the ribs, we

don't appreciate it.

The way that we distribute

pressure in the body practices that I

engage with, that I teach, that I work

with, they're very powerful, but we

don't leave room for that. We want to

go, we want to do something quickly,

crudely, and we deteriorate.

And then we go to the protocols. We go

to the help help me and and yeah there

is some help the there is definitely

some help there but to lift it into a

meaningful healing is not often done. I

I believe because the practice is

missing the notion of high resolution

versus low resolution language

movement and awareness. Maybe we just

kind of grab those three and I know

there there are others. I think about

this a lot. Uh let's start with

language. Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a

psychologist, I would also consider

somewhat of a neuroscientist because she

collaborates with neuroscientists and is

studies emotion. And she's been very

clear and it's absolutely true that in

cultures where there's many words to

describe different aspects of sadness,

aspects of happiness, even some

extremely specific circumstances. is

like there's a Japanese word, forgive

me, I don't remember, for the the

sadness one feels after a bad haircut.

The more nuance and specificity, the

less likely people are going to default

to I'm sad, I'm depressed, just kind of

like throw themselves in the broad bin.

And uh I refer to it as the

emojification

of

>> mental life. I'm happy. I'm sad. I'm

depressed. I do think that it's nice to

have a range of language ability so you

can talk to people of different

backgrounds. Some people are more

hyperverbal than others. a colleague of

mine at uh NYU um Tony Mauvshin who runs

the center for neuroscience. He's he

described an intellectual beautifully

and you certainly uh fit this

description which is an intellectual is

somebody who can talk about and work

with a concept or something at multiple

levels of granularity that are

appropriate for the conversation. like

we're going pretty deep today peeling

back layers looking you know if you have

three minutes you know it's a different

conversation but I think as you said

this is the advantage of reading more

challenging books at times or kids books

which are very simple in essence but

deliver the message in with in very

succinctly

>> generally right so I think there's real

value to working up and down the ladder

in language and having that at one's

disposal

>> and here is Another practice we go back

to being pragmatic,

ambiguity,

incompleteness.

Do you bring it about?

>> Not having to have everything resolved.

>> No.

>> And not only in the terms of problem

solving or or or or a physical what we

call kinetic coins. This is great. This

develops movement intelligence.

Something that I work with a lot.

reading puzzling symbolic texts,

parallels,

difficult to resolve things and maybe

never resolve things or movies, watch

Tarovski,

Hodorovski,

it's a very different experience than

Hollywood or watching contemporary dance

that is contemporary in the sense that I

can't define it. It's happening right

now and I'm not sure what I'm even

watching here. I've been taken to some

contemporary dance where I thought I

don't know what I'm watching.

>> Yeah. And the first time I went to wash,

I said, "I don't like it." Yes.

>> And I'm gonna come back. [laughter]

>> That was the distinguishing factor

between you and me. But I've since

developed a real appreciation uh for uh

there are some forms of dance that um

Eric Jarvis was a guest on the podcast

neuroscientist who was uh going to be

part of the Alvin

Dance Company took a hard left turn into

neuroscience and studies language and

will say this will a relevant tangent.

The species of birds that can talk are

also the ones that can dance. And he

thinks bodily movement

based on the genetics. He studies the

genetics of language and the same genes

that are in these speech areas are

strongly expressed in very similar

motifs

>> in the areas of movement. So he thinks

bodily movement is the fundamental

language. I'll just leave it at that. I

need to get you two in the same room at

some point and then I won't just want to

be there listening. If everything

depends on language, we also have to be

careful because then the granularity of

language will be the limiting factor and

it's huge pieces. So this like playing

with play the the not Lego, you know,

there was technical Lego, the small

little bits. I love this.

>> There was a normal Lego and then there

was a the the big one, the big chunks

that you started from. So, it's like

you're working with these

words are corrupted

and they're corrupting us and they're

supposed to be containers, but they

don't they're not containers. They're

more pointers,

but we've lost what they're pointing at.

The simulacum versus the sim simulation.

Simulation is something that creates a

model of something real. simulacum

is now disconnected. There is not

anymore that real thing. When I

investigated this deeply with myself, I

don't believe there is an inherent

difference between these two, but there

is definitely critical masses that can

be achieved. For example,

the sensory thing, sensor, sensory motor

thing is a lot less corrupted than the

conceptual schema. Even that is not

reality. The senses don't bring reality.

They model reality. They are simulation

machines.

>> Everything we experience is an

abstraction of what our senses are

pulling into our brain.

>> Which means

ignoring uniqueness,

erasing differences for the sake of

communicating it to the system even on

the level of sensation because it would

be overwhelming.

We would be crushed

by reality if the band wage is opened

fully.

>> Certainly if it was opened all at once.

I mean I'm um

>> this is also what happens with

psychedelics by the way. Sometimes

>> too much pours in. Yeah.

>> There there is a bandage expansion

>> too much cross talk. I mean we should

acknowledge this you know so in the

studies of psilocybin and it's um where

it has been shown to improve major

depression the typical outcome is you

know scan before

I should mention this is you know

therapy assisted psychedelic um

experience not just recreational therapy

therapy therapy therapy with

psychedelics therapy therapy therapy

therapy with psychedelic we're talking

about psilocybin here therapy Y therapy

therapy therapy therapy. Not just head

into the woods, eat a bunch of

mushrooms, talk to your friends. The

most consistent observation in the brain

is a lot more connectivity between areas

that weren't communicating prior to

that, which can offer new opportunities

for insight, new opportunities for um

it's literal integration and the

unmasking of connections that were there

but were more or less suppressed. This

can be a really good thing. It can also

be a really bad thing. One of the

hallmark definitions of psychosis is

clang associations where people with

schizophrenia or other forms of

psychosis will say, you know, this is a

really cool cup up. So everything's

moving up or stock market, you know, and

they they just follow the language in a

meaningless way that any non-sychotic

person says all they're doing is

following the rhyming of the words.

>> Those are not good connections to

follow. If you want to be functional in

the world, you might write an

interesting

book using that tool. consciously, but

these people live in that reality. So,

the pouring in and the cross

connectivity, the plasticity, it's it's

not always a good thing. I'd like to

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movement, I absolutely agree. I think

that um people who are not exercising

enough, not moving enough, not walking

enough are starting to approximate a

C-shape internally rotated. We see that

if people are taking on an exercise

program, which I think is generally

healthy, walking more, hopefully doing

some movement that gets their heart rate

up, hopefully list lifting some objects

that are outside their ability so then

they get stronger and so forth. Okay,

great. Should people do all of that and

then start to think about

the other syllables and vowels and and

uh language of movement and incorporate

that into their life or if given the

choice should people start with

many many forms of movement and the

reason I ask this is a very practical

one. Many people will say, "Well, this

all sounds great, but I got to get up in

the morning, make myself breakfast, take

my kids to school, do all my things. I

get 30 minutes. I need to get my heart

rate up. Got to get my zone 3, four. I

now have to lift things." You're telling

me now I have to pay attention to the

subtle ripples of movement, you know?

So, I could see either argument being

true that just like check off the boxes.

heart health, muscle health, ligaments,

fight deterioration,

add something on top of that versus no,

let's treat the whole system as having a

lot more opportunity there and start

there no matter where you are. That's

that's a practical question embedded in

a somewhat intellectual conversation.

>> I'll push back.

>> Mhm.

>> The question is already corrupted.

First, it's a exercise approach to

physicality.

I have 30 minutes a day and what do you

do with the rest of your time? That is

the push back.

>> Mhm.

>> What do we do that is so important that

we don't have time to pay attention to

the ripples of movement when we are

living our lives, cooking, doing?

When you're listening to me, are you

fully engaged and listening to me? Now

we are not using this time well.

Even highly productive people actually

those are often the case.

They are never

using the time well in the sense of that

presence.

So what I'm suggesting is a paradigm

shift

in the way that I view my physicality at

all. the way that I view my day today,

my being when I'm listening to you. I'm

not running after these words in my head

and

I'm also in the physical experience of

what is occurring right now and and I

developed this through my practice. We

need better education and we need better

tools

and this is the new limiting factor.

Even AI recognizes it more and more and

it will I predict become the crucial

component. The body the sensory

symbols

that are popping out

when a symbol comes to our mind that

that that that

impression those impressions that are

they are so important

without them there is nothing. And we've

tried to go down to the the root of it.

I've I've spent a lot of time reading

about this and figuring out what is the

raw currency of

cognition of that ab ob abstraction

schema. And I've heard many answers.

There is the the primal or primitive

semantics this point of view like

something that is under language. And

there is this um point of view from

phenomenology

and that this this area or or there is

the invariance something that does not

change no matter how you look at it

that's the most crucial basic element

but the best answer that I found is this

drawing a boundary

selecting which means when I look at you

I select you from the environment

I create a boundary inside my

simulation. This is the most as as

George Spencer Brown talks about this in

laws of form. This is the the act of

differentiation.

This creates the most basic thought

matter. It's a thing now. And the

unselected state which also represents

the the entropy second law of

thermodynamics the the soup that wants

to pull us back

is

the other side. So this selection and

the unselected state which are

codependent of course

they are the very root of of things. So

when we play this game of paying

attention and the quality of it we are

interacting

underneath the problems with the system.

We are going to the and I'm talking

about this open presence pre- language

thing that must inform the language

formation anyways it doesn't come from

anywhere so there must be something

underneath and and I'm sure you can

teach me a lot about that a lot more

than what I researched myself but the

experience of it myself is very

important to try to find that gentle

layer

and to try to interact with it. This

will transform the body schema and we

have to teach it to children when we

come about and some cultures maintain it

to a larger degree and of course it

depends on the language and on other

habits. This is below exercise. This is