People are now stacking their GLP-1 as

their insulin sensitivity tool, their

growth hormone or their GHR

>> and their androin modulation therapies

as this trinity stack

>> trinity stuff

>> to get very fit, very healthy quickly.

So a lot of these transformations you

see in CEOs and celebrities and stuff is

using a combination of those three

things. You know your TRT plus teptide

or retride whatever it may be and then

using a growth hormone modulation

whether if you can afford growth hormone

or testimon. And you're seeing people

lose a lot of fat gain a lot of muscle

in short amounts of time. Is that

healthy? We'll find out. But that is

like the celebrity protocol. Welcome to

the Huberman Lab podcast where we

discuss science and science-based tools

for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Abu Bakri, an internal

medicine physician who is also extremely

knowledgeable on the science and use of

peptides. When I say peptides, I mean

both FDA approved peptides such as the

GLP agonist. You probably know these as

things like Ompic, Monaro, and

Retatrutide, as well as peptides such as

body protection compound 157 or BPC57,

which as you'll learn today has a very

long history of being used in humans for

gut health and tissue repair, and many

interesting studies in animals

supporting its potential use in humans,

but a minimum of formal studies in

humans, meaning one. We discuss BPC-157,

what it does and how, as well as things

like growth hormone secrets like

tessamarellin, MK677 and others. And we

talk about things like GHK copper, which

nowadays many people are using to

promote collagen synthesis and repair

for aesthetic reasons like improving

skin, hair, and so on. We also talk

about peptides that have been studied

for the purpose of DNA repair and

longevity like epithelen and pinealin

which also have been touted to improve

REM sleep and for improving cognitive

function. You'll also learn what is

known and what is not known about these

peptides both in terms of function and

safety. During today's episode, you will

come to appreciate that Dr. Bachri has

truly encyclopedic knowledge about these

peptides. He is also formerly trained as

a physician and as a consequence you

will learn how to think about peptides

based on whether or not they have known

receptors or not. That turns out to be

very important and what their real

safety profiles are as well as what

particular concerns you ought to have if

you are considering using peptides of

any kind. As a formerly trained

board-certified physician, he comes at

this topic through the lens of a

physician, but also somebody who is very

interested in the current status and

future of peptide medicine. Today's

discussion, thanks to Dr. Bacher, is a

true masterclass on peptides. By the end

of today's discussion, I promise you,

again, thanks to him, that you will be

among the most informed, doctor or

otherwise, about peptides from the GLPS

to BPC57 and all the others that I

mentioned, including some that I didn't

mention here in the introduction. So, it

is a real gift and honor to have this

knowledge presented to all of us. So,

buckle up. You're about to learn a lot

about peptides. Before we begin, I'd

like to emphasize that this podcast is

separate from my teaching and research

roles at Stanford. It is however part of

my desire and effort to bring zero cost

to consumer information about science

and science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr. Abu

Bakri. Dr. Abu Bakri, welcome. Good to

be here. Peptides, huge topic and huge

category of biology and medicine. So, we

should start off by breaking this into

categories so that people can wrap their

minds around it because that word

peptides has come to mean stuff people

buy and take and maybe should or

shouldn't buy and take. But there's a

lot of important and quite simple

biology to understand before anyone

should even be thinking about any of

that. So if I just push the word

peptides towards you, how do you carve

that up in terms of thinking about it as

an MD as a clinician and maybe also put

yourself into the mind of a interested

let's call it a peptide curious person

out there. So scientifically I would say

it's one of the languages of the human

body right so the body likes these

different languages to communicate

between cells going from DNA to RNA to

proteins which are can be broken down as

polyeptides and peptides and peptides

are one of these languages steroid

hormones are another language and then

peptides can be broken down further into

subcategories whether or not they have

receptors or they have no receptor

>> and that kind of changes the clinical

effects we'll see like the GLP1's which

have a very strong clinical effect

compared to these obscure peptides like

BBC57, TB500, TB4 that don't have a

clear target.

>> They have receptors but they just have

many of them or they don't even have

receptors.

>> We don't have a receptor identified for

BBC57 or TB4. Just stopping you right

there. There's a very interesting

distinction. I don't think anyone else

has described peptides this way.

>> Let's take BPC57 for the moment. We're

going to talk a lot about it today. If

it doesn't have a receptor, what are

some ways that it could impact cells and

organs and so forth? Or is it that there

are receptors, we just don't know what

they are?

>> It could be that the latter that maybe

the the receptor is still elusive or it

could be that it's modifying certain

proteins that already exist or linking

different pepi uh proteins together in a

more favorable fashion for gene

transcription. The Russian peptides are

all epigenetic modifiers that they bind

to the groove of the DNA in certain

spots that either open up or close the

chromatin to certain areas of genetic

expression. And they've modeled this out

>> like a steroid hormone. So steroid

hormones bind like they bind to a like

the andro receptor binds DHT or

testosterone goes into the nucleus turns

on all the androgenic genes.

>> Yeah. Like puberty is a good example of

that.

>> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So like pinealon

that we've talked about uh shuttles uh

heat shock proteins with androen

receptors.

>> Got it. So if I just pause us for a

second, we should think about this word

peptides in two major categories at

least. Yep.

>> One is has known receptors

>> plural like the GLPS. Y

>> the other category would be does not

have known receptors might have

receptors but can definitely impact

biology in interesting ways or so say

the animal data.

>> Yep.

>> Okay.

>> A lot of animal data.

>> All right. I know a lot of people are

interested in GLPs and I want to go

there. But because I know most people

are probably listening to this foremost

because they want to hear about the

other stuff. Let's start with BPC57.

What is it? What do we know about it?

We'll explore safety and what is your

stance on it from the perspective of a

consumer and a clinician. So first of

all, what is BPC57?

>> The best way to look at it is, you know,

as humans, we've been looking for

medicines in plants for thousands of

years. And in the last, let's say 150

years, we've been looking for medicines

in cells. So animal derived versus plant

plant derived medicines is the way to

think about it. You think about aspirin,

you think about metformin, the statins,

those were all discovered in you know

plant tissues. um stats more so fungi

but you get the point. Now we've been

looking into animal tissues to find

cures, medicines, treatments. So a group

in Croatia in the '90s looks out for

this peptide called BPC that they they

and eventually named BPC. It's a $40,000

dolton giant peptide called BPC. BBC7 is

15 amino acids from that giant peptide.

We don't naturally make BPC157. That's

what you'll commonly hear online. We

make BBC the big uh protein. Did this

group go looking for body protection

compound? For those that aren't familiar

in the laboratory, you can take a

tissue, grind it up. You can do what's

called fractionation. You can start

separating basically cells and tissues

and liquids according to the size of

different proteins. Like different

filters will bring let just like certain

filters will let sand through or pebbles

through or boulders through. That's kind

of what you do. And then you figure out

what the sequences are and then you

throw them on cells or put them into

animals and you try and figure out what

they do. Why were they motivated to look

for what eventually became BPC? So

Pavlov, the famous uh scientist that

would do the dog the experiments on the

dogs with the bell and and making the

dogs salivate. The other work he did was

on gastric juices of dogs. What he'd do

is he'd put a hole in the dogs stomachs.

He would um feed them food and then get

the gastric juices and sell that as a

medicine.

>> That's how he made his money.

>> Yeah, that was part of his business.

>> So he got a Nobel Prize. He was also

kind of like what did he have a like a

um a call code? It was like like enter

pavlova for for discount at checkout.

Yeah. Amazing.

>> So this is BBC before BBC57 exists.

There's probably other peptides and

compounds in there, but they they found

that gastric juices had positive effects

on healing on people that had, you know,

gird and these kind of

>> Wait, so people were taking BPC in the

time of Pavlov?

>> They didn't know what BBC was. They were

taking gastric juices from dogs

>> for what?

>> GI distress, GI discomfort. Uh some

people were trying for wound healing.

There was a big push in this era for

like finding animal tissues and putting

them into humans. That science fizzled

out. At the same time, there's a

scientist Hansely that's coming up with

uh the stress adaptation theory and he

notices that animals are stressed out.

Three things happens to them. Their

adrenals get really big so they make

more cortisol. Their gastric lining gets

destroyed and then their thymus gland

and their lymphatics shrink down. And he

he has this published paper where you

have clear adrenal from a stressed

animal versus a non-stressed animal. A

thymus from an animal that's stressed

versus not. So this group is looking and

thinking hey Pavlov had this gastric

juice. Hansely said that there was

damage when during stress there must be

some kind of cytorotective or

organoprotective compound in the gut.

The stomach is a very rich endocrine uh

tissue. It makes ghrelin all these other

hormones. So they're like there must be

something else in the gut juice that

protects the gut lining from further

damage.

>> Were people drinking the gastric juices

of dogs? Were they injecting them?

>> Drinking was mo mostly what they did.

And it was supposed to be a medical

elixir presumably. It had many many

things in it, many peptides. Not

>> this pepsia and like upset stomach and

this kind of stuff is what people were

thinking.

>> Do the reports point to the fact that it

might have worked independent of what

was sold on uh Dr. Pavlov's non-existent

website.

>> This was in like the early 1900s. And

then uh Soia was what 1930s

>> I think. So yeah, 100 years ago.

>> Someone will correct us if we're wrong.

And this other group in Croatia

>> was 91.

>> 91. Okay,

>> their first paper talks about this like,

hey, there must be some kind of

compound. They they identified the big

40 Dalton protein BPC. And then they

they were like, what's what's causing

the actual biological effects? They

identified BPC57, the 15 amino acid

peptide that's causing all these

effects. There's actually more peptides

in gastric juices that some other

scientists may or may not have already

identified. This field of peptides going

to be very interesting because almost

every organ has a signature of peptides.

Like if you think back Dr. Vladimir

Vulvich in 1850s 1880s finds carnosine

and carnitine in muscle of cattle. So

you can think that the first peptides

that are found are carnosine and then

carnitine is the amino acid that's that

have positive effects on strength

training and performance and different

effects there. But that was the whole

idea is like hey there's muscle peptides

that may have muscle effects, right? Gut

peptides might have gut effects.

>> So this Croatian group um isolates this

15 amino acid kind of mini segment Yep.

of BPC. They and others start injecting

into mice inducing injuries to nerve to

tendon. Maybe describe a few of those

effects. I' I'm familiar with that

literature, but I can tell that you are

far more familiar with it. So, what are

some of the impressive effects that they

observed that led to where we are today?

So, they did all kinds of horrible

things to these mice. They would, you

know, sever tendons and then give them

BPC through oral or injectable

intraparitinal uh administrations and

they'd have faster healing times. They

would sever ACL of the mice. they would

uh do burn wounds. So when a patient has

a burn wound in like the ICU, they end

up having crazy gastric ulcers, but if

they were able to put BBC on topically

for the mouse, they would have no

gastric ulcers. They name it as this

anti-stress compound is how they they

they look at it. Now, when they do that

Achilles paper on the mice, that's what

explodes the bodybuilder interest and

leads us to today where we are like, oh,

MSK injuries must be BPC, tendons and

and and and muscle injuries. But the

original idea of BBC was to use it as a

gastric treatment, not to use it as a

muscoskeleletal.

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>> Let me pause you here. People are

probably saying, should I take it or

should I? Just hang in there, folks,

because this is really, really

important. What is so striking to me

about BPC and by the way that's not an

endorsement for BPC. Just what's so

striking to me because my lab worked for

a long time on optic nerve repair and

neural regeneration. Nerves don't like

to regenerate in the central nervous

system. Peripheral nervous system they

do it they do it slowly but they do it.

>> Yep.

>> Not in the central nervous system. Ask

anyone who's had a stroke or an optic

nerve injury. It's a tough road at best.

There are data that I've seen with my

own eyes that show that, you know, you

can accelerate

healing of tendon, of ligament, of nerve

pathways

>> in animals. Yes.

>> In animals. Yes. Thank you. And that it

just generally promotes quote unquote

repair.

>> Yep.

>> That's kind of weird.

>> It is weird,

>> right? Because I could spend the next 10

hours or more telling you about all the

ways that people have tried to get

nerves to regenerate and couldn't. And

as you point out, this thing doesn't

really have one specific at least known

receptor.

>> So the data on the gut make a lot of

sense. This is after all a gut peptide.

It makes sense that that gut peptide

could get lots of places in the body,

right?

>> But what is it doing mechanistically if

we know to support regeneration or

replenishment of all these different

tissue types? Because a neuron is a very

different cell type than, you know, a

fiberblast or one of the bits of

collagen that make up different

connective tissues. It's modulating a

lot of these growth and healing pathways

like in the models of damaging the

endothelial layer or the epithelial

layer of different tissues. You'll get

more veg f signaling. So that's the the

vascular endothelial growth factor. So

get more blood vessels andises being

formed which creates a lot of the

controversy around BBC safety. You'll

get cell migration especially when

coupled with TB500 and TB4. you'll get,

you know, more access of the healing

factors to the area through androgenic

pathways. On top of that, you'll get an

anti-stress effect. So, the other big

thing that they did was they'd give

corticosteroids with BPC57 to these

mice. And usually when you have a wound

and you you give corticosteroids, the

corticosteroids will slow or even stop

the wound healing from happening. When

BPC was administered, the the the

healing was either the same or even

better.

>> Is BPC considered anti-inflammatory?

Because based on what you just said, it

almost seems like it helps maintain some

of the pro-inflammatory response. Some

people might be thinking, why would you

want inflammation? What Dr. Bockery just

said is if you block inflammation with

cortosteroids,

>> you aren't going to call in the signals

to repair tissues. So lowering

inflammation is a dicey thing that maybe

we set aside for later in the

conversation if we have time. But is it

thought that BPC is lowering

inflammation or is just somehow hitting

the gas pedal on all these regenerative

restorative biological processes?

>> It's more putting the gas pedal on these

processes to bring in the immune system,

the healing factors. For example, in one

tendon model, they noticed that it

increased the amount of growth hormone

receptors on the tendon. So

theoretically, this would allow more

growth hormone to dock in and cause the

outgrowth of the tendon and the and the

regrowth of it. So there's that theory

there. downstream it'll modulate uh

nitric oxide synthesis. So that's a big

thing when it comes to wound healing

because you need to to dilate the blood

vessels, you need to call in different

cells. So it's really changing the way

cells behave at that level, but that's

only for like the tendon side of it.

They also did weird things on the

neurological side like they would make

these mice drunk, okay? And they would

then give them BBC and they'd get less

drunk and when they go through mazes.

>> Oh boy.

>> Okay.

>> We did not just recommend you take BBC

with alcohol. want to be very clear. Um,

but people are going, you know, we'll do

their own interpretation. So, I'm being

semi facicious, but very interesting.

>> And then also, they would give them get

the mice drunk and then have them

withdraw from alcohol and like

withdrawal is deadly. If we have a

patient in the hospital that

withdrawals, they could die during that

withdrawal if they're not given

benzoasipines. They got BPC and they

didn't have the withdrawal symptoms. I'm

like, what's going on here? This is a

very interesting compound. I think it

gets it gets all the hype for the MSK

stuff, but I think the neurological

neuroscychiatric, let's say, and then

gastric effects are way more interesting

when it comes to that because it's

modulating the gut brain access in an

interesting way. We'll have people come

to us and they're like, "My aderall is

not working since I've been taking oral

BPC." Are they happy with that effect?

>> No, they're not happy. They're very mad

because like it seems like it's blunting

their aderall.

>> So, it's doing something from dopanergic

signaling both on both sides, both

withdrawal uh when it comes to like the

gapurgic side, but also the the peak of

signaling. So if you like peruse Reddit,

which you should never do, um you'll

find all these anhidonia discussions

about BBC, people feel like depressed

and low energy.

>> Incredible seems to be

>> in terms of effects in animals and

anecdotal reports in humans because I

think both your and my excitement about

this might be occupying a substantial

amount of the force field here. Let's do

something that normally I would do in a

few minutes. I'm going to ask you some

very direct questions about this and you

and I don't hold you responsible as

being like BPC uh you know spokesperson

but here you are. Um that's Pavlov's

job. Um and he's dead.

Are there any known adverse events of

from people taking BPC known and

documented? Okay. adverse events where

it's unrelated to uh contamination or

something of that sort.

>> In the literature, when it comes to um

the animal data, they've injected

animals with, you know, a thousand times

the dose of BPC with no real adverse

effects. So there's we don't even know

the LD50 of BPC, which makes it hard for

it to become an FDA approved.

>> Maybe define LD50.

>> LD50 is is the dose of which would kill

50% of the animals if it was

administered to them. So we don't even

know what that is. And that's actually

an important number as as you know

barbaric as it sounds to determine for

any drug. What's the LD50 for caffeine?

What's the LD50 for aspirin? What's the

L? This is every drug you take folks on

or off the counter you know prescription

or non-prescription has gone through

LD50 testing in animals.

>> To be a clinician to prescribe this, we

need to know what that is which which

limits us. Now there was two very small

phase one and phase 2 trials on rectal

BPC enemas um in the early 2000s from

that same coration group. So that's the

big concern of BBC. all the data comes

from one group. So people can be

skeptical. There's a couple of Chinese

groups that have also replicated some of

their work. But uh those groups wanted

to try to treat ulcerative colitis. It's

a very you know miserable condition of

where the immune system attacks the

lining of the gut in multiple spots. Uh

and they use enemas of BPC up to like 80

milligrams which is much more than than

people would take.

>> Most people are injecting microgram.

Yes. 100 or 200 micrograms per day or

something. Maybe more but you're talking

about 80 milligrams.

>> Yeah. erectile enemas. They did a phase

one and phase two trial.

>> They're doing this daily or they do it

once.

>> They did it for a few weeks. Um and then

they reme-measured. They had it was

placebo controlled. The data is not

available. The abstracts are only

available. So that that's what also

gives us some pause when we're going to

you know push that forward especially

when the legal discussions are happening

here in the next few months uh on BPC. U

the first the phase one trial showed no

adverse effects. U they and they didn't

even have BPC in the systemic system

too. That's that's a key point to know

that orally administered or rectally

administered BPC doesn't seem to go

systemic. maybe define that a little bit

more specifically.

>> If you take aspirin and then you measure

blood aspirin levels, you'll notice the

levels go up. When they measured BBC

levels, BBC157 levels in these uh

individuals, they didn't find it in the

blood. So, either it was broken down

very quickly or it stayed locally to the

lining of the the gastric tissues.

>> That raises a question for me. Let's say

somebody doesn't quote unquote take any

BPC57 by enema or otherwise. If I were

to just draw your blood right now, uh

there's BPC57 in there in the bigger

protein,

>> the bigger the bigger BPC protein. I

don't you wouldn't find

>> is it circulating or is it or is it

contain or is it restricted to the gut?

>> We don't have that data.

>> Well, that's incredible, right? Because

we're talking about these effects all

over the body. We don't even know if it

leaves the gut.

>> No, but in well, the injectable is going

to go systemic.

>> And most people are going to take if

they're decide to do this, they're going

to take an oral or an injectable.

They're either going to inject local to

the injury if they can

>> or an interparitinial.

They found fragments of the 15. Like

there's there's a paper in 2024 that

looked at this and they could figure out

if somebody had BPC administered for

doping reasons cuz it's on the water

list now. So they could figure out if

someone had taken BPC.

>> Got it.

>> But there we don't know like we don't we

need to know the dynamics. We don't know

where it goes, how it goes,

>> and we don't know the results in terms

of what those 80 mgram enemas of BPC

did for the colitis.

>> In the phase one trial, it was just a

safety uh there was no adverse effects.

in the phase two trial was very small

like 40 patients there was at least a

positive signal on on the ulcer colitis

>> and this was done in the United States

or this was in Croatia okay so to be

quite direct on the one hand you have

groups um who I think are mostly

well-intentioned saying hey 80 millig of

BPC by way of enema did not cause any

adverse events and that's the phase one

that you described

>> if we believe their data is right

>> on the opposite side many people

especially in the United States and you

know in Northern Europe where the

regulations tend to be similarish right

as compared to elsewhere in the world

would say well yeah but that study was

in Croatia now I have many Croatian

friends that's not a knock on Croatia

why would it be that the clinical trials

in Croatia would hold less weight this

is this is a dicey area but I think it's

important because you'll hear this oh

those are Chinese peptides those are

Russian studies

Yeah. And you know, I mean to me, you

know, the question is,

>> was it good science? Was it done

carefully? Would it pass muster for a

phase one in the United States?

>> That's a good question. The groups seem

to be very robust and they do really

good randomized control, double blind

placebo control trials. I think we're

very uh United Statescentric. We view

ourselves as the premier science and we

are the premier science. So people kind

of trust that more and there may be you

know perverse incentives when it comes

to different government bodies and like

you know Soviet era research that might

be you know pro fabrication when it

comes to certain compounds that makes

people hesitant because there's a lot of

like these Soviet era compounds that are

not peptides or some of them are

peptides they're fantastic they sound

they sound amazing but when they get

tested maybe they're not as potent as

the Soviet data would suggest. I always

thought that the Russian stuff was like

the really potent stuff that they didn't

want anyone else to know about that kind

of way goes the other way, right?

>> It could go both ways. I mean, but they

were they were more interested in

performance. They wanted better

astronauts, better Olympians, better

soldiers. We care more about, you know,

a profit drug model that gets people on

a subscription for with the monthly

drug, unfortunately.

>> Sometimes it heals people, but

>> So nowadays, is BPC57 legal in the

United States? Like if if I wanted to go

online and buy BPC7, I can do it, right?

legal legally for research purposes

only.

>> I thought now under the new regulations

uh recently passed that you can get it

from a compounding pharmacy or

>> technically not just yet.

>> Okay.

>> And it depends on on medical boards to

to break it down. BBC157 never got FDA

approved, right? So it gets into these

compounding pharmacy lists. There's a

category 1, two, and three. Category one

means the FDA thinks like, hey, this is

not an approved drug, but we're okay

with you compounding this and you're

okay to to push that forward. Category

2, it's like do not compound. In late

2024, BPC57 and and like 20 other

peptides got moved to this category 2

list. Since about 2017 to 2024, people

have been prescribing BPC and these

alternative medicine anti-aging

practices. It gets removed from that

list. Of course, you know,

compoundingies reabel it as PDA, pedeka

peptide arginate,

>> but it's the same thing.

>> It's the same exact thing.

>> Really?

>> Yes. One of them will be an acetate, one

of them will be an arginate, but the PDA

is is BBC57. Because there are many many

people selling compounded

pentadcaeptide.

>> Pentecate.

That's the

>> arginate. Okay. I think the acetate one

is the one that's on the the phase the

category 2 list. Now just in April of

this year it got removed from the

category 2 list and it's not yet on the

category 1 list which would allow

physicians to prescribe it

>> through compoundingies. Now but they can

prescribe the PDA version.

>> People are prescribing PDA. Yes.

>> Now, now state medical boards view that

very differently.

>> Like I got a letter from one of the

licensed in many states. One of these

states reached out to me. It's like you

cannot prescribe not me directly to the

general public of of people in that

state you cannot prescribe non-FDA

approved peptides no matter what.

>> So there's controversy there. Even if

the FDA says okay we're okay with you

prescribing it. Is your medical board in

that state going to be okay with it? So

it's state by state by state laws.

>> What about with tellahalth? So,

somebody's on the east coast in a state

that um allows them to write a script

for let's just call it BBC cuz it's

effectively what it is or this other

thing where they kind of wriggle through

the regulation. Can they send that to

California or to Wisconsin or or

someplace else if the patient is there?

>> The tele health laws go into effect

where the patient is.

>> So, if let's say in California it's not

allowed to have BPC according to the

state board of pharmacy or whoever uh

bans that. Even if you're a New York

doctor that's licensed in California

that would be against the California

Medical Board and they would ask you if

they found out to stand in front of

them. Now, are boards cracking down on

this? Not really. There's a couple

states that are cracking down on people

and people know to avoid those states,

but it's going to be very dicey over the

next few years.

>> Okay. Couple of questions. anecdata. We

don't want to place too much on it, but

the big kind of rumor out there that

pricked up my years a few years ago was

when I heard that some athlete before

the summer Olympics, this was two summer

Olympics ago, um, from Eastern Europe,

had a complete Achilles transsection.

Not just a tear or a pull, but when we

think about nerves and tendons, we think

like complete cut the whole way through.

And the rumor was they took BPC-157

locally injected

>> for a few months and they podiummed in

the Olympics. Yep. They still got a

medal.

>> Familiar with that story.

>> That was the that was the story that

kind of got out there that I feel

>> kind of catalyzed this movement of BPC

out of these niche communities and in

started it toward the the public

awareness that leads to you sitting here

today among other things. We also you

have a lot of other knowledge but we're

restricting to BPC now. So

>> do we have verification of that story?

>> No. No, I I think that story was uh

hearsay. I don't think they wanted to

reveal what they actually did. I don't

think they only did BPC57. They'd be

stupid if they did. They should have,

you know, all the best and latest

greatest treatments, whether exome, stem

cells, other peptides, anything that

wasn't banned. And by the way, I should

say BPC57 was not on the banned

substances list at that time. It was so

unknown. Just like there are compounds

right now that athletes

>> are using and not just in the enhanced

games in preparation for the Olympics.

I'm not saying they're all doping, but

there it's it's a common practice that

athletes will forage into things that

can help them that are not yet on the

band substances list.

>> And I mean, good luck proving that BBC

was injected, you know, a week ago

>> because by the time the peptides already

gone out of your system. So, or at least

we think based on the phmicamics that we

understand now.

>> U that story was run with from the

research community. They use it as a

marketing tool to sell more BPC157

because what what happened in the in the

field is the GOP ones come online, you

know, late 2021 and 2022 with Ozek and

WGO V, they get the FDA approval for

weight loss. There's not enough of a

supply from the traditional

pharmaceutical versions of the GLP1s.

So, people start looking elsewhere to

get their weight loss drugs. I know

people that would drive down to Mexico

to pick up pens because a pharmacy in

the United States would cost, you know,

$1,500 for an Osmic pen. Pharmacy in

Mexico, 1 hour drive.

>> Same drug.

>> Same exact drug. How much relative cost?

>> 150 versus 1500.

>> Wow.

>> So 10x.

>> And this is the thing that Trump has

been, you know, very vocal about like

that we that we're getting overcharged

for drugs here.

>> We we definitely are. And the Trump RX

has lowered a lot of these prices, by

the way, for for a lot of these drugs.

Now, that time there was a shortage of

semiglutide and then eventually

zepatide. So the compound pharmacy game

shifted into making these drugs,

compounded versions. So they're not the

FDA approved versions, but when there's

a shortage of a medication, the

compounders are allowed to make these

drugs to meet the shortage. And in fact,

the FDA was reaching out to these people

telling them to do it. Like Brigham was

talking to him last week at the Hands

Games. He's like, "Yeah, the FDA told us

to make this stuff and then they're

getting us in trouble."

>> This is Brigham Beller who runs ways to

Well, and

>> he ran a pharmacy for a long time,

right? Compounding pharmacy. Yeah. We've

never actually met in person. One of the

best ones.

>> It's not an ad fories. We have no I have

no business relationship to bring.

>> So if there's a shortage, compounding

can jump in the game.

>> Yes. And they did and they jumped in

very hard

>> on the GLPs.

>> Yes. And they made a lot of money off

the GLP ones. Like this was, you know,

billions of dollars being made.

>> Were they selling them for less than

standard pharma was selling?

>> They were less than the ozic pens.

Unfortunately, what would happen is the

provider had the discretion on the

price. So all these providers also were

making a lot of money.

>> Who's the quote unquote provider? The

physician.

>> The physician or the NP or the PA.

>> Uh

>> who takes the difference?

>> The clinician, which is I don't think is

legal in most states.

>> Wait a second. Maybe not even federal.

>> Wait a second. So, let's say I wanted to

take a Wiggoi. Yes.

>> And there's a shortage. I can't get it

from who's the the big manufacturer.

Nova Norris doesn't have enough.

>> My doctor says, "Listen, you need this."

Yes.

>> And I say, "How much is it?" And they

say, "Well, 1,500 um $1,500, but it

turns out the compounding pharmacy

>> through a different doctor, a more

benevolent doctor.

>> There you go.

>> Could have prescribed it to me for I

could get for maybe $300. In the case

where I'm paying 1,500, it's going to my

physician unbeknownst to me. I don't

it's I'm cloaked from the process.

>> If you're getting the the Nova Nordisk

pen, the physician is not involved.

>> No, I'm talking about if I'm if I'm

drifted towards a a compounded version.

So the the most of the times when it

comes to compoundies, which I don't

think is is a is a good practice, the

clinician gets a price from the

pharmacy. So the pharmacy will tell you,

hey, a vial of semiglutide costs 150

bucks.

>> This clinician can now sell that vial to

the patient sell. It's really they're

charging an administrative fee, right?

Right? It's not a sale cuz technically

you can't sell medications like that.

They will sell it to you for $200 or

$800. Okay. If I want to ask my

physician,

>> how much are you getting the drug for

from because I know which pharmacy it's

going to come from. It's going to come

in a vile says like Upstate or Tailor

Made or what's Brigham's pharmacy?

>> Revive.

>> Revive. It's coming from Revive. What

are you paying for this from Revive?

>> Yep.

>> And then what are you going to charge

me? And I can assume the difference is

going to my clinician.

>> It's going to the clinician all.

>> All right. Sorry clinicians, the game is

up. Patients are now going to ask and

you have every right to ask as far as

I'm concerned.

>> Yeah, cuz what's going to happen with

the BBC and all these other peptides

moving is there's going to be teleahalth

platforms on every on every corner now

that are going to be like, "Hey, BBC

199, BBC 299," and they're going to like

check out and there's going to be a

doctor somewhere in a room that's going

to stamp the prescription, but it's just

a, you know, e-commerce. It supplements

with a with a stamp of a doctor, which

is not good medical care at all.

>> Okay. To balance this a bit, the route

that many people have gone for about a

decade now, but primarily in the last

three to five years, was to go to these

for research purposes only, what we

would call gray market. Let's just name

names because they're out of business

now anyway. They've shuttered

themselves. Peptide sciences till a few

years ago, you could go on there, you

could buy pretty much any peptide. It

would say for research purposes only,

not for animal or human use.

>> Yes. And you sign that many times. And

when you paid them, you would have to

Venmo them.

>> Yeah.

>> Or you could do it through zel. Yes.

>> But they would ask that you not send it

to a Peptide Sciences account. It was

like some random name and the names kept

changing. So everyone knew they were in

on something like this. By the way, I I

I want to be very clear. I ended up

getting these things, right? I was too

frightened to take them later. I have

taken BPC. I've tried it. I don't take

it currently, but I've I've tried it

through a compounding pharmacy. So I

just want to be very clear what that

experience was about.

>> So eventually they actually got payment

processors like the this this market

evolved with the desire. Okay, there's

maybe I'd say 5 to10 billion dollars on

gray market peptides being spent in the

United States in 2025 and that's going

to grow this year.

>> So here's my question. Standard pharma

we know goes through of all the things

we're talking about the most stringent

process. You may hate pharma folks or

whatever. That's you're right. But the

the stuff that you get that's

non-generic from Novanoris, from Eli

Liy, you can be certain based on the

product packaging that it's as clean as

it gets, as pure as it gets.

>> That's right.

>> Compoundingies are a mix. It depends on

the compounding pharmacy.

>> Do we know that gray market peptides had

problems? Because there are people out

there right now who are certainly not

physicians. people like Robert Breedlove

who's best known for like his work in

crypto who's also now like very open

about the fact that he's taken all these

peptides and anabolics and things and I

heard him online the other day saying

literally that he's tested the gray

market for research purposes only

peptides and compared them to the

compounding pharmacy versions and

they're identical. Now he's not a

physician and I don't think he's lying

but many people are taking that sort of

evidence and saying oh I'll just get it

from gray market sources. As a

physician,

what is your stance on this?

>> So, the API for all these active

pharmaceutical ingredients comes from

China. There are no such thing as

Americanmade peptides. It gets finished

here. So, the API,

>> they're all from China.

>> Everything's from China. the raw

materials

>> the raw materials like the semiglutide

you're getting from a compounding

pharmacy or a research pep peptide

website ratide included comes from China

and then gets either the the raw

material gets you know packaged here

>> raw materials or or synthesized compound

because there's a big difference between

getting like the raw materials for

something and getting the thing

>> the synthesized semiglutide

>> gets made in China it'd be very

expensive to make it here there are

people starting to look at that cuz

that's that's the next you know thing in

the in the arms race to make American

peptides, right?

>> So, they're all Chinese peptides.

>> Everything's Chinese peptides.

>> There's no uh Guatemalan peptides.

There's no

>> China is the best at it at doing it.

Now, the compoundingies

vary in grading. Some of them are really

good. They do all the testing,

sterility. They have very good quality

control. So, you get a good product, but

they usually have to compound it with

something else to get by the regulations

like they'll add in a B12 or a B6 to say

like the patient had nausea from the

traditional semiglutide. we can compound

them with B12 or B6 to get around the

nausea and that's that that's meets the

patient rule because there's two ways to

get compounded medications. Either a

shortage or there's a unique need that

the patient has.

>> Do we know that compounding with

something else actually deals with the

nausea or is that just it slight? It

might help some people.

>> Got it.

>> Anecdotally, people will say that they

respond better to the pens like the

actual pharma pens than to the compared

to the compounded stuff. The research

stuff is all over the place. Like some

of it could be better than compounded

stuff. It could be the wrong substance.

Like there's a there's a guy went viral

on Twitter a few weeks ago. He got rid

of two tide started getting darker. He's

like, I don't think I'm injecting reat.

Got it.

>> Yes. He was melan. He was injecting

melan too.

>> And folks, I realize that we're we're

going places that not even I predicted

we would go, but this is super

informative. So all of the raw materials

are coming from the same source. Yes.

Then they're getting filtered into these

different let's just call them

>> stringency bins. Standard pharma, quote

unquote big pharma being the most

stringent.

>> Yeah, some of the raw materials are

overseas, like I think Lily's opening

some China factories. Some of it's here.

>> Okay. Some are going into compoundingies

and compoundingies, I think it's fair to

say, have varying levels of stringency.

Some are going to be excellent, some are

good, some are going to be lousy.

>> That's right.

>> Fair. Okay. the quoteunquote gray market

peptides, the ones where it's

quoteunquote for research purposes only,

but I made the joke on X a few weeks

ago, like how many of you are running

experiments in your home, not on

animals. Were you doing cell culture at

home? Like, come on.

I know what's involved in doing cell

culture. You're not. No one's doing this

at home.

>> So, those presumably also come in

anywhere from excellent to dreadful.

>> Yes.

>> Um, but we don't know which are which.

Nope.

>> We don't know that.

>> And batch to batch. That's the big

problem.

>> Gotcha. Okay. So, it is risky to get re

for research purposes. I mean, like

that's the majority of way people are

consuming peptides. Unfortunately, we

should just because of the the the move

in 2024 to get these from the category

one to the category 2 list and make them

banned quote unquote. That opened up

this gray market zone. Like the gray

market existed for the last 15, 20

years. Bodybuilders would, you know,

have anecdotes about BPC157. They'd

inject it post, you know, post squats

for different injuries. Nobody really

cared about it. It was with the GLP-1s

and then the banning of the peptides

plus this, you know, anti- medicine kick

that's been happening over the last five

years

>> since the pandemic.

>> Yes. Since the pandemic that people are

like, you know what, I want to inject

this because it gives them a sense of

autonomy or they feel like their bro

recommended it. Like I said, the best

job in 2025 was to be a peptide

affiliate. Like people made my yearly

salary in in a month selling peptides

illegally on TikTok.

>> And I will say because for people that

think it's just bro science, it's also

gal science. I will tell you, I don't

even know this a term. Um, someone needs

to come up with a better term. Um, my

understanding and not from Reddit is

that more than half of the peptide

market is female.

>> Oh, that's right.

>> You know, there's this perception that

it's like, you know, only guys who like

to lift weights and want to be jacked

and, you know, jacked and tan or

whatever, they say, you know, no. No.

Especially when we start getting into

things like GHKU copper and we start

talking about things for collagen and

skin rejuvenation. There's a big peptide

market in towards women. I actually

think in the long run it's going to

exceed at least financially peptide

market in men.

>> I think it already has because like

soccer moms have become like affiliates

like like you know Amway and Herbal Life

was the big thing 20 years ago. Now

soccer moms just do peptide affiliation.

>> Where are they getting their peptides?

>> Research research grade websites. The

>> gray market. Okay. We already know that

they're not uh recommended, but what

what about black market? What what what

would be considered black market?

>> Black market is like if you bought it

directly from China like like it's very

cheap. Like a vial of BPC costs five

bucks to make. Like now someone will

sell it to you for $1.99 plus depending

on where. But black market is either

like you know your friend in China on

WhatsApp sent you a vial of BPC. Do not

do this or someone synthesize claims

they synthesize it in their bathtub.

Like just like the underground gear like

all the steroids that were in the '9s

and the 2000s. It's like, who knows what

that is.

>> What's so interesting to me is with

steroids, it went from bodybuilding

community to eventually hormone

replacement. It was like TRT or what I

call TRT plus cuz a lot of guys are

taking a lot more than that. Some are

taking less, some are most are taking

more, some are taking what they're

prescribed. And then HRT be has become

very popular in women. So now HRT is

kind of like a thing that it's not like,

oh my goodness, like so and so is taking

estrogen replacement or testo. It's not

not a big deal. Peptides is different

because it came, you know, the big

explosion in this came through the GLPs.

And I would argue, I'd love your opinion

on this, why so many people are now

peptide curious is because people

because of the GLPs are now also very

comfortable

>> injecting themselves. Like like 5 years

ago, if you're like, you're going to

inject yourself, people like, oh my god.

Then they realize it's like this little

tiny pin. It hurts less than a, you

know, Texan mosquikito bite. People are

doing it on their skin and like, you

know, and somebody's, you know, your

girlfriend or wife is doing it as if

it's nothing. And, you know, like heroin

addicts or diabetics,

>> right? You're not going introvenous. So,

that changed everything that

dstigmatized it. Now,

>> to be fair, I I want to touch on

>> the the question about adverse events.

Again,

>> y

>> we're going to spend a couple minutes

talking about some incredible things

that we've seen and heard about BPC57 in

terms of its positive effects.

>> Y

>> the concern I've always had was the

angioenesis, the growth of vasculature.

If somebody happens to have a little

tumor or what will eventually become a

tumor sitting on their liver or in their

gut or in their pancreas, in theory, it

could vascularize that tumor and cause

it to grow more quickly. Is there any

evidence that that's actually happened?

I want to be very clear. I'm not loading

this question because it sounds like I'm

kind of like leading the witness when I

say that. I want to know. Y

>> I'm not currently taking BPC57. I'm

fortunately I don't have an injury at

the moment. So that would be the only

condition which I'd take it unless you

told me there are other reasons. But I

don't want to give myself that risk

>> that risk. And I think most people don't

want to give themselves that risk. So

what is the the realistic risk based on

observations in humans or animals? Have

we ever seen tumors grow more quickly?

>> No. Like for example, most compounds if

they're, you know, carcinogenic, we will

see that signature in the animals like

you know with cardarine GW uh was a drug

that was very was very promising because

it had you know diabetic implications

for metabolism and now it's a

bodybuilder drug that they use for more

cardio. What is this?

>> Cardarine GW. Mhm. Uh you might have

seen on on the Reddits and those forums,

but people use it for I stay out of

Reddit.

>> Yeah. Good. Uh increases your cardio um

capacity. Got so banned on on the water

list of course, but it was it had

promise for treating diabetics because

it changed metabolism in the liver. It

had a signal of cancer in animal data.

So that whole thing was scrapped.

>> There's no signal from the animal

literature on BPC57 for for you know

cancers. Now that all that literature

comes from one group. So we have to be

very careful. that one creation group

that tells you that that's it's the

safest thing in the world.

>> All the animal data come from one group.

>> Almost all of it.

>> Interesting.

>> Almost all of it. Very few. Like there's

a couple of Chinese studies on on BBC57.

Now there's starting to become more

interest here. Like I think it's a phase

two trial on hamstrings happening here

in the United States.

>> Really? Yeah. Humans. Yes. Phase two.

>> Yes. Uh we talked to a group, an

orthopedic group somewhere on the East

Coast. They they wanted to do a BBC

trial. So we consulted with them to kind

of Great.

>> Yeah. So it's it's going to happen.

Especially if it moves to this category

one list and people can be prescribed

it. At least we can get like a phase 4

trial where it's being prescribed and we

can see what's happening to the people

as they're getting it

>> and we can, you know, aggregate all this

anecdata into one place ideally and

report on it. So that's something we're

working on in the in the background.

>> Is that something you personally working

on on aggregating all this all this data

together into a anyone nest study to put

it all all together because all the ane

data exists but like put it together

somewhere at least we can see what the

signals are. For example, on Reddit,

you'll find signals of hematomas getting

worse, which makes sense with the with

the VEGF pathway.

>> I've heard this. So, a friend and

physician who is, I would say, peptide

curious/positive

told me that when he takes BPC-157 for,

you know, a shoulder or knee or

whatever, that angiomas on his face, um,

the sort of spiderweb angiomas, not the

formal term, forgive me, derms, but, um,

get worse. That's his his personal

observation. I think a lot of people

don't want that. It makes sense though

if it's promoting angioenesis

>> based on the the mechanism it does make

sense. Now BBC157 is not a uniform

androgenis um upregulator. In some

models it decreases vef in a melanoma

model a cell line.

>> So it might be potentially anti-cancer

but we need to test it.

>> We don't know and which is what's really

unfortunate about this compound. It's

very promising. It has all this cool

literature in animals and we just don't

know when it comes to the one.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and we'd love

to know because like if it does work

like I could see a million use cases in

the ICU that we could use, you know,

BBC157 to really help people out

especially during the critical illness

because like in ICU people get gastric

ulcers. Like if if we knew that it would

work, I would love to give them an

infusion of BBC157 and that's the future

I could see happening. But we need data.

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there going to be a formal randomized

control trial on BPC and who holds the

patent?

>> There's multiple patents on BPC 157

depending on which salt they're in. The

patent has been passed around a couple

of times to through different places.

Unfortunately, the company that had the

patent under the pled got acquired by

TAVA. TA is this generic pharmaceutical

company and they don't they make, you

know, Aderall. So, they they have

they're making tons of money making

Aderal. They don't really care about

PPC157. So, they have one of the

patents. The other patent expires in

like 10 years. I think Cric still has

it. Dr. Crick is is the guy behind

BBC157. He's

>> he's in Croatia.

>> He's in Croatia. Yeah.

>> Would Tava um sell the patent?

>> I'm sure they would if someone made an

offer. The the problem is I don't I

don't see the purpose of even having the

patent because you can add on one chain

to the amino acid. This is the problem

with with peptides. This is what Luli

Eli Liy is coming into when it comes to

making rea is that patent laws for

peptides kind of suck because you can

add on one amino acid. You can modify

one thing on it and suddenly it's a

different compound.

>> This is true for other pharmaceuticals.

Like I'm familiar with some of the

ketamine and ibeane trials and there's a

company that took ibagane and basically

added a magnesium component to it and

you can make that a completely new drug.

I'm not saying that doesn't work. I

think they have a good rationale for

doing that. But so this game of sort of

protecting patents rough and plus

millions of people have already used

BPC157 through research use only

websites. So I think millions is fair.

But now how do you reel that back? Like

it's already the cat's out of the bag.

So like there's no financial incentive

to run the giant study

>> unless like we we crowdfund it as as you

know peptide curious people

>> within the category of um interesting uh

anecdotal data. Y

>> and in your role as a physician, I

realize you're not suggesting these

things, but you you have a different

picture of this stuff at the level of

mechanism and you're a clinician that

works with, you know, truly FDA approved

drugs and you're you're I want you to

share with folks. I said it in the

introduction, but internal medicine

means that you spend your days what

>> I'm on the on the wards of the hospital

admitting patients from the ER to the

floor to the ICU, managing very complex

disease ranging from, you know, a simple

pneumonia to a coronary artery bypass

patient. So, yeah,

>> that whole spectrum.

>> Okay. So that lens applied to this as

much as one can would you say that like

of the the reports that you've heard

directly from people you trust and from

people that who are not incentivized to

say these things like oh you know it

made me happier you know their skin

looked better all the things that one

can find in it with an affiliate code

attached to it of those what do you

think are the most interesting

potentially valid claims

and I asked that because If we were

going to fund a clinical trial, we need

to pick an end point or a couple of end

points. Is it going to be recovery from

injury? If so, what kinds of injuries?

Is it going to be the gastric stuff? Is

it mood interaction with dopamine

receptors? I mean, I've heard so many

different things. If we had a chunk of

money and we're going to we're going to

design a study and have someone else do

it so it's truly independent. Like what

are the top three to five outcomes that

you've heard that you have a good

feeling there's quote unquote something

there?

>> Yep.

>> And then we narrow it down to maybe one

or two for sake of the study. What What

are those five? I would say to complete

the phase one, phase two on the ulcer of

colitis, do that phase three trial on

proven that it has benefits for

ulcerative colitis. And I don't think we

need to use enema. We could probably

have an encapsulated version that

releases deeper into the intestines.

>> So fix the gut, fix the ulcered gut.

>> Yes. In conjunction with that, you could

do a trial on like, you know, gird.

That's a simple condition. A lot of

people have it randomized to BPC157 oral

capsules versus pentopresol.

>> Okay. And you're basing this on the fact

that you've seen and heard that people

who have gird get better, feel better

when they take it. Okay. And it could be

placebo.

>> Yes. I mean, anecdotally, when when I

travel, I I have a bottle of BPC orally.

>> Why is that?

>> I don't get, you know, travelers

diarrhea or or, you know,

>> when I, you know, eat exotic foods on in

random places. My friends all get sick

and I I happen not to. Anecdote, right?

But that's interesting. There seems to

be some kind of gut protective effect.

And that's what they noticed in the the

mice literature. they would have an

offending agent into the gut and they'd

notice that there would be protection

deeper down in the in the gastric tract

from that offending agent because if you

think about it the gut is the most

vulnerable part of the body like it's

open to the outside world it's a tube

that runs through you can eat something

and it could completely destroy you so

you have to have some kind of mechanisms

the prostaglandins uh the you know all

these different hormones that are made

potentially BPC17 is part of this robust

armory that the gut has to protect

itself from further injuries. Mhm. What

are some things outside the gut or

indirect from the gut that are also

compelling?

>> So, I would love to see some

neuroscychiatric um BBC studies when it

comes to um addictions. There's enough

anecdot about people talking about

addictions and and like hey I don't need

to crave insert drug here not

recommending that anyone tries that out

but for alcohol or whatever it may be.

Do you think that is likely due to the

we're speculating but likely due to a um

interference with the reinforcing

properties just like earlier you said

people are getting less drunk so people

are getting less high becomes less

reinforcing or is it somehow touching

the craving mechanisms themselves?

>> It's probably touching the craving

mechanism through the gutb brain access

because I don't think it's going

systemic either. I think it's it's

locally in the gut shutting down the

neurons from from from if you think

about it if BBC is what they claim it is

right and that's a big if that if you

have a noxious agent going into your gut

your body has to have a mechanism to

lock down you know protect your your

vital organs right so is BPC part of

this giant transduction pathway to

protect your vital organs your brain

your heart your kidneys from further

damage we had uh Dr. Diego Borquez, I

can never pronounce his last name,

forgive me, Diego, who's out at Duke,

who's really the world expert on these

neuropod cells in the gut that signal

through the noto's gangling up the Vegas

noto's ganglion to either promote or

suppress release of dopamine to make you

either approach or avoid certain foods.

Very, very interesting. I would be more

than happy to

>> encourage his lab, even if get funds for

his lab, to do something on this. What

are some other categories of interesting

effects that deserve

>> careful study?

>> Yep. So we need to see what BBC does on

the muscular skeletal system. Like

that's what the hype is. That's where

everybody's is is going. So as I look

through like what model I would look

for, you want something that's not very

vascularized but could be improved if

the blood flow was good like a tendon

injury. So perhaps you know a bicep

tricep tendon type of uh postsurgical

outcome. So like you get your bicep

tendon um torn, you get a repair, you

get BBC either inoperatively or

postoperatively and you see if if that

person heals faster because idea is not

to use BBC. It's not going to magically

reattach an ACL that's torn, right? But

can it further accelerate the healing

from an ACL surgery so you come back in

6 months rather than 12 months? That's

the big question

>> and that's what like a lot of athletes

are are using BBC157 for that use.

>> Has ever anyone ever done the one limb

versus opposite limb control experiment?

I mean I know that people take it orally

or inject it systemically like under the

skin or into the muscle goes

systemically in the bloodstream if you

apply it that way. Um if you can get to

the injury site sometimes people will

inject locally

>> but it seems that the challenge is that

let's say you have you know uh you know

tendonitis in one elbow and tendonitis

in the other elbow you could inject into

your left elbow not and not your right

but there's going to be systemic

transfer so it's hard to do that

internal control experiment. Yeah, I

know. I've had I've used BBC for one

injury and I've had results on a

different injury.

>> Positive results.

>> I had positive results. I'm like, "Oh,

interesting that like that that my

shoulder feels better even though I was

doing it from my elbow or whatever it

may be." This would be a good time for

us to, you know, bracket what we're

about to say by saying this is purely

anecdotal, but filtered through I

consider myself a skeptic on many, many

things, especially things I would put

into my body. I'll tell a a story.

What's your favorite personal BPC story

involving you and your body? Yeah,

>> I tore my tricep a few months ago. Tore.

Yeah, tore triceps lifting with people I

should have been lifting with. They're

much stronger than I was. Purple from

here to here.

>> Like the pictures I posted on on X. It's

it's brutal. I'm like, I'm going to have

to have surgery. This sucks. I I don't

have time to have surgery cuz you're

you're in a brace for like 3 months. And

I put BBC in locally. Don't try this at

home. Not medical advice, but locally in

the tissue spot with a couple of other

peptides. And within 3 weeks, my my PT

is like, "What the hell are you doing?

Like, this is healing so fast." Would I

have healed that fast anyways? I don't

know. But that's typically a grade two

tricep tear with with purple arm from

from top to bottom. It wasn't grade

three. Uh cuz I could still extend my my

elbow. That's usually a 3-month

recovery. And to be back in 3 to 4 weeks

was was fantastic for me, which is why

I'm so excited.

>> What dosage were you injecting?

>> Uh a larger dose than people would uh

>> not micrograms. No,

>> you were up in the grams.

>> Yeah. Yeah. A lot higher. I I think um

personally and in some of our our our

people, we've used bigger dosages. I

think that's the problem. the low

dosages even though that translates well

from the mice data for humans I think

the dose is way higher

>> but people just go based on the dosage

that would fit in the pile through a you

know peptide sciences website rather

than what actually we don't know what

what the human dose is for BBC157 so

there's a lot of work to do just to

figure that out like when we spoke to

the to the orthopedic group like yeah

we're going to start with you know 250

micrograms I'm like I don't know if

you're going to see an effect at that

low of a dose you might need to to raise

it up like that that's what people do

online

>> I'm like yeah but that's just because

someone's peptide website says to do

that. There's no data there, but you

know, tricep was back to normal.

>> Amazing.

>> That was a an interesting BPC case. I'

I've seen other injuries where BBC

didn't really help

>> much. I can't match your story. That's

that's a a bigger result. I can just say

that I had a bad trap neck pull where I

couldn't turn my head and I was like,

"Oh, one of those." and you know had

some BPC so it was only I think only 200

micrograms and just pinned it right into

the that's street talk for injected um

right into the kind of like upper

trapish area 2 days later completely

gone of course

>> I don't know what would have happened

had I just waited

>> but it seemed um eerily fast and then I

stopped taking it y

>> so this is a guy that you know and and

by the way that was um not gray market

it was obtained through a doctor's

prescription from a compounding pharmacy

labeled BPC1 57 not PDA PDA okay those

are anecdotes I've also read just to be

fair we should balance this out

certainly on X you know people can say

anything they want people saying oh you

know I didn't feel well I stopped taking

it okay could be due to what it was

dissolved in could be due to their own

unique you know response could be due to

bad sourcing you know contamination so

we don't know but not everyone has a

great result and some people have no

result right but many many people report

what can only be described as pretty

astonishing ing positive results

>> that cannot be directly ascribed to the

BPC because of the placebo effect etc.

And I'm not saying that to protect

myself. I'm saying that so that people

can couch this in that like how we got

here y

>> is because of stories like this.

>> Well, there's two possibilities. Either

BBC is as amazing as we think it is and

it's unfortunate that millions of people

don't have access to it

>> or BBC is actually either ineffective or

harmful to people and millions of people

are injecting it right now by buying it

through online sources. Both cases are

very bad endpoints. one's worse than the

other. You can argue which one, but

that's why we need this data. We need

people to push this forward to figure

this out because we don't want these end

points because if if in 20 years we find

out BPC is as good as, you know, Secrets

Lab says it is, then man, people are

pissed off all the, you know, joint

replacements and injuries didn't heal

and all the athletes that maybe could

have had a longer career, that would be

very unfortunate. But if it's the

opposite and like, you know, every

18-year-old kid in the in the gym will

come up to me and like, I'm going to

inject inject BPC. Like, where do you

get it from?

>> I'm like, dude, you're 18. you have all

the peptides you need in you like the

parabiosis studies that these are young

animals like you actually take your

blood and

>> we had Tony Weiss Corey on the podcast

that was you know young blood is rich

with these things and no we're not

talking about harvesting blood from

babies check out the Tony Weiss Corey

episode we'll provide a link

>> I mean what you just said about young

guys coming up to you in the gym and

saying should I be taking or I'm already

taking BBC is you know we could have a

whole other conversation maybe another

time we will talk about testosterone and

synthetics and things like that I see a

lot of young guys taking everyone.

>> I don't know if it's everyone. I don't

know if it's everyone. I see a lot of

many many people are taking testosterone

exogenously who truly don't need it and

potentially permanently shutting down

their fertility or causing other issues.

>> With the looks maxing trend, too,

>> with the looks maxing trend, you know,

they're walking around with hammers,

sledging on their face, this kind of

thing. You know, I'm sure when I was in

my 20s, you know, people in their 50s

were probably like, "What are these kids

doing?" You know, and it wasn't in

anything like this, but who knows? It

was like baggy pants and like you know

and like there was weird stuff going on

like hacky sacks and stuff. So not me,

not me. But I'm confident that thanks to

you we've framed the history of this

which by the way is fascinating

>> and kind of where we are now very very

well. So thank you. Thank you. Thank

you. Thank you.

>> I have two questions. Um well one

comment and one question. The comment is

I think there's a third category of

problematic outcome. One you said is

this thing works spectacularly well for

a number of important problems to solve

important problems and we don't find out

about it because it wasn't looked at

carefully. The other is it's

detrimental. There's the other one which

is we start hearing about adverse events

y

>> and it goes kind of the way of the dodo

or it kind of drifts back into who you

know and is it the good stuff or not the