As a woman, if I honestly thought there

were things we should do differently to

optimize our results, of course, I would

be doing them myself and telling other

women to do them, too. The narrative

that women need a sexspecific

program or nutrient timing guidance or a

particular intensity of exercise or rep

range or all of it.

It makes women feel like they're being

spoken to and being considered and then

they're part of this community instead

of oh, you know, just do what your

boyfriend does or what your husband does

or so the narrative is very much women

are not men. And so obviously women need

something different. The data says

men and women respond to exercise very

similarly.

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,

where we discuss science and

science-based tools [music] for everyday

life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Lauren Kenzo Simple. She

holds a PhD in integrative physiology

and is a certified strength and

conditioning specialist. She is an

expert in both the science and practice

of building muscle and strength,

cardiovascular fitness, and the

relationship between hormones and

exercise. Today's discussion is focused

on fitness for women, and how it

overlaps directly with the same things

that men should do for their fitness.

Therefore, today's discussion is

relevant to both women and men. Dr. Keno

Simple explains how to structure your

ideal training routine according to the

time you have available and your health

and fitness goals. She also clearly

explains what the science says about if

and when women's hormone cycles, life

stages such as menopause, and things

like birth control should actually

impact how women should train and when.

As we all know, information about best

practices for fitness, nutrition, and

health are hotly debated online. Dr.

Kenzo Simple has become one of the most

trusted voices for explaining what the

science says about women's specific

fitness as well as for delivering clear

actionable evidence for protocols that

work in the real world. It was a true

honor and pleasure to host her on the

podcast. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr.

Lauren Kenso, Simple. Dr. Lauren Kenzo

Simple, welcome.

>> Thank you.

>> Very excited to have you here. To kick

things off, is there anything

fundamentally different about muscle

tissue in men and women?

And if not at the cellular level in

terms of the hormone receptors that they

express or the hormones that they're

exposed to in a way that should change

people's behavior about how to exercise

>> when we look at how the muscle responds.

So we look at muscle protein synthesis

in response to exercise or nutrition.

There are no differences. Very similar

protein metabolism response, very

similar growth response. The major

difference and this is hormone related

is that the baseline muscularity because

during puberty when men experience a

surge in testosterone that coincides

with an increase in muscle mass. So if

you take an untrained adult man and an

untrained adult woman there will be a

disparity in their baseline muscle mass

and that is due to differences in

testosterone. However, once they start

training, they will gain similar

relative size.

>> So, not that I'm suggesting uh people

get into competitive bodybuilding and

use steroids, although some people might

make that their life choice. The vast

majority of people won't. But if we were

to look at female bodybuilders at any

point in the last 30 years or so, it's

very clear that with chemical

augmentation, which is typically

increasing testosterone or some

testosterone like uh derivative, that

women can achieve a very impressive

level of muscularity that in many ways

rivals what certainly men who are not

taking anabolic steroids can achieve.

What does that tell us? the fact that

the addition of androgens, testosterone

and testosterone like derivatives can

take female musculature and make it look

essentially like male musculature. Does

that tell us anything interesting that

informs the non-steroid user, the

non-bodybuilder?

>> Not so much because we're talking about

those suprahysiological levels and

that's the real gamecher. So if we think

about even with men what is the normal

range of testosterone we don't see this

relationship between oh you know you're

closer to 900 and you are going to

respond better to resistance training.

So as long as you're within what that

wide normal range there doesn't seem to

be a predictability of your response to

training. However, once we get into

those supraphysiological levels and

we're taking that exogenous hormone,

then yes, we are going to develop levels

of muscularity that wouldn't necessarily

be possible.

>> You said something several things uh

very interesting. Um if I understood

correctly, if a male is somewhere in the

reference range, so typically I believe

that's somewhere between 300 NOGS per

deciliter and 900 NOGS per deciliter.

Maybe in some countries it goes up to

1,200 but in any case that a male with

400 NOG per deciliter testosterone

versus 600 it's not as if the male with

600 can make you know that much more

muscle growth and the same is true for

women.

>> That's right. Okay.

>> So as long as you're within that broad

normal range and of course what's normal

for you differs from what's normal for

someone else. So if there are uh changes

that might impact you because now you're

below what is your normal then that can

manifest in in a variety of ways. But

there isn't this clear kind of linear

relationship where we would say oh let's

measure your testosterone you are going

to be a hard gainer or you're going to

put on mass really easily. If we were to

just look at people who are not

chemically augmented in any way, not

know their testosterone in any way, and

here I'm referring to women

specifically, how much individual

variation is there, or what's known

about the individual variation among

women in terms of the amount of

potential to grow muscle and strength?

Is it true that some women have a much

greater potential to build muscle mass

uh that's independent of their

testosterone levels? I'd say yes, it's

independent of the testosterone levels,

but we're going to start with different

baselines and then it depends on the

stimulus that you are using for growth.

And some people are adapting to that

growth stimulus to a greater extent than

others, but part of that is effective,

consistent, progressive training, and

then part of it is arguably some genetic

factors. But when we even look at the

molecular level, say fiber type

differences, we see adaptation in both

sexes that is quite dramatic. And that

tells us that both men and women have

the potential for large adaptations in

either direction, whether we're saying,

you know, to endurance type training or

resistance type training.

>> I would like to take a quick break and

acknowledge one of our sponsors, JW. JWV

makes medical grade red light therapy

devices. Now, if there's one thing that

I have consistently emphasized on this

podcast is the incredible impact that

light can have on our biology and our

health. Now, in addition to sunlight,

which I've talked about a lot on this

podcast, red light, near infrared, and

infrared light have been specifically

shown to have positive effects on

improving numerous aspects of cellular

and organ health. These include faster

muscle recovery, improved skin health,

wound healing, improvements in acne,

reduce pain and inflammation, improved

mitochondrial function, and even

improvements in vision. Nowadays, there

are a lot of red light devices out

there. But what sets Juv lights apart,

and why they're my preferred red light

therapy device, is that they use

clinically proven wavelengths, meaning

they use the specific wavelengths of red

light, near infrared, and infrared light

in combination to trigger the optimal

cellular adaptations. Personally, I use

the JWV whole body panel about three to

four times a week, usually for about 10

to 20 minutes per session. And I use the

JWV handheld light both at home and when

I travel. If you would like to try JWV,

they're offering up to $400 off select

products for listeners of this podcast.

To learn more, visit JV, spelled

jvv.com/huberman.

Again, that's jovv.com/huberman.

Today's episode is also brought to us

byleep. Eightle makes smart mattress

covers with cooling, heating, and sleep

tracking capacity. One of the best ways

to ensure you get a great night's sleep

is to make sure that the temperature of

your sleeping environment is correct.

And that's because in order to fall

asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body

temperature actually has to drop by

about 1 to 3°. And in order to wake up

feeling refreshed and energized, your

body temperature actually has to

increase by about 1 to 3°. Eight

automatically regulates the temperature

of your bed throughout the night

according to your unique needs. I've

been sleeping on an eightle mattress

cover for nearly 5 years now and it has

completely transformed and improved the

quality of my sleep. The latest eightle

model is the Pod 5. This is what I'm now

sleeping on and I absolutely love it. It

has so many incredible features. For

instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called

autopilot, which is an AI engine that

learns your sleep patterns and then

adjusts the temperature of your sleeping

environment across different sleep

stages. It'll even elevate your head if

you're snoring, and it makes other

shifts to optimize your sleep. If you'd

like to try eight, go to

eightsleep.com/huberman

to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.

Eight ships to many countries worldwide,

including Mexico and the UAE. Again,

that's eight.com/huberman

to save up to $350.

I want to put aside the use of exogenous

uh testosterone therapy although we can

return to that a little bit later

because it seems to be a popular theme

in women's health circles now especially

in the per perry menopause excuse me a

menopause conversation but it's well

known from studies uh I believe that

were exclusively carried out in men that

training a certain way sprints

resistance training and um we talk about

exactly how can increase circulating

testosterone grown in meaningful ways

that can feed back on psychology and can

feed back on growth and strength

development etc. Have the same studies

been carried out in women? In other

words, if a woman lifts weights um in a

certain manner for 45 minutes or 60

minutes, do we expect a big surge in her

circulating levels of testosterone?

>> Well, the circulating levels are already

quite low. And one of the issues here is

that the way testosterone has been

measured in women for a very long time

is such that the assays are not capable

of detecting some of these normal low

levels. So we know a lot less about

those lower kind of circulating levels

of testosterone in women than I think

people acknowledge. But more

importantly, that acute response to

exercise, th that those that increase in

um post exercise, testosterone, growth

hormone, etc., people used to think that

was the driver of hypertrophy. And so

there were all of these training styles

to sort of maximize that response. And

so people would uh promote high rep

training or supersets and they'd say,

"Oh, you know, this is going to really

maximize that response." But what we

know now is that response, although

acutely, it's not the driver of growth

long term. And so it it doesn't really

make sense to chase that short-term

response because it's not predictive of

longer term adaptation. Until fairly

recently,

women doing resistance training,

especially heavy for them, you know, uh

somewhere between 70 and 90% of a one

rep max or even a one rep max. So, heavy

for them was scary for a lot of women.

I've women in my family and they're

like, I don't want to lift weights. I

don't want to I don't want to get too

big. This is, you know, was a common

statement. What do you think changed? I

think part of it was the introduction of

the bikini category in competitive

bodybuilding because that was a level of

muscularity that people didn't look at

and say, "Oh, that's bulky." That was,

"Oh, she looks good in a bikini." And

so, people wanted to look like that,

realized that they needed to lift

weights to do it. And it kind of opened

up a door for resistance training being

more feminine. Um, I think that in

combination with the introduction of

more group fitness, it had resistance

training components, crossfit, which um,

a lot of women were drawn to. I think

all of that has made women feel more

empowered to lift weights and less

fearful of the the results. Although I

think there is still a sentiment in some

circles that lifting weights or lifting

too heavy is going to make you huge

instead of you know quote unquote toned.

Also if there are all of these where are

all of these bulky women? When do you

walk how often do you walk down the

street and see an incredibly jacked

woman? It's very very rare. And so

clearly no one is getting huge by

accident. you're not getting extremely

muscular without working really really

hard and often incorporating some

pharmacological help

>> for a a woman who's not currently doing

resistance training. Um maybe we could

talk to her uh for a second. Um at what

age is too early for a woman to do

resistance training? What does the data

say?

I think is a cultural

stereotype that at least in high school

the girls didn't belong in the weight

room. That was certainly my experience

growing up. Now I think that's shifting.

And so it's not that it's unsafe, it's

just that it wasn't done. And so people

weren't teaching teenage girls how to

lift weights. And there's a lot of

advantages to that, especially if you're

playing sports. Because we have female

athletes who are teenagers and then

going into college and continuing to

play their sports and there can be not

only a performance improvement but also

an injury reduction from doing some

resistance training along with your

sports specific training. So I think

it's it's certainly valuable to to start

younger also from a habit building

perspective because I know you know if

you're somebody who has gone decades

without ever doing a lot of structured

exercise or without ever lifting weights

it can feel kind of daunting and

intimidating to learn the new skill.

That said we know that you can gain

muscle anytime even if you start at 70.

So, it's not that it's ever too late to

start, but if we start earlier, we are

building muscle in the way that you're

building a savings account or a

retirement account. Because if we're not

lifting weights and if we're not

physically active, then we do start to

lose muscle with age. And later in life,

it does become a problem.

>> I wonder uh if resistance training

should be taught earlier. Um it doesn't

sound like it should be avoided for

young girls. Is that correct?

>> Yeah. I mean I think if we see a young

kid doing a barbell squat, there's

something kind of jarring about that.

But think about all the kids we see all

the time, you know, on the monkey bars

essentially doing pull-ups or muscleups

and developing a lot of upper body

strength. And certainly young gymnasts

have been doing that for a very long

time. So, it's not that there isn't any

sort of resistance training or going

around or or or happening in childhood.

It's just not the structured training

that we think when we talk about lifting

weights.

>> That's an excellent point and it makes

me realize that probably early in

development, boys and girls are doing

resistance training at the level of

pull-ups and monkey bars and all the

rest. Um, to the same extent, maybe even

the girls a bit more if the boys are all

playing video games or like I don't

know. Oh no, who knows? But then there's

a drop off because of this what really

is just a a a cultural stereotype

um that boys are going to go to the gym

and girls aren't. Although that seems to

be changing. Okay. Well, that's a bit of

the sociology around resistance training

in in young girls. What about um a woman

in her, you know, teens, 20s, 30s or

older who's just never done formal

resistance training, perhaps has done

other forms of exercise. How should she

think about starting resistance

training? We could break this down into

days per week, sets and reps, etc. But

what's the the sort of general contour

of a really good starter program for a

woman at essentially any age?

>> Historically, I think women have been

told that exercise is for weight loss.

And so, it's really important that we

start to shift that narrative because

resistance training isn't about being

smaller. It's not about the number on

the scale. So, we want to think about

getting bigger, about growing muscle.

And in order to do that, we need to

challenge the muscle in a way that is a

sufficient stimulus for growth. So, if

we think about a full body training

program, we want to target all of the

major muscle groups and a challenging

load will differ depending on the

exercise and and the muscle groups that

we're targeting. And we can train in

low, moderate, or high rep ranges, but

we need to train close enough to

failure. Meaning, if we can only do 10

and not an 11th, that's failure. So, we

can stop at maybe eight or nine and

that's an appropriate stimulus. But if

we finish that set of 10 and we could

easily do another 10, then that load is

too light. So making sure that we are

doing a full body training program

targeting all the major muscle groups

that we're using appropriate loads and

we're progressing over time because what

you'll be able to do whether it's load

or number of repetitions this month will

change next month and the month after.

>> You mentioned full body program. Does

the entire body ha uh have to be trained

each session? Or could um somebody use a

so-called split like you know chest and

back one day rest legs the next day rest

shoulders and arms calves some ab work

stretch repeat that sort of thing. If

you're only going to train two or three

times a week, I think it's better to do

a full body session because

you're hitting all those major muscle

groups at an appropriate number of times

per week. If you want to train more

often than that, it does make sense to

split it up. So, if you're training four

days per week, I would do, you know,

maybe upper body, lower body, upper

body, lower body. If you're training 5

days or six days per week, then we might

split it up even more the way that you

suggested. And there are also uh options

depending on your personal goals. And so

if we're thinking about muscle growth

for overall health, then maybe we're not

doing as many exercises like accessory

type exercises. But if we're thinking

about changing the physique with

resistance training, then we might

tailor the program to your goals and

preferences and um work a little bit

more on those muscle groups that are

important to you. for sake of example

then I I'll just try and build a

structure around what you're saying.

Let's say uh a woman decides to do a

Monday, Wednesday, Friday whole body

workout each time. Take the weekends

off. Obviously the days that it starts

could shift. Um but due to schedule or

other things, sometimes it's a Monday,

Friday, sometimes it's a Monday,

Wednesday, sometimes they hit Monday,

Wednesday, Friday. Seems like a

reasonable framework. Would you suggest

training the entire body all three or in

some cases two two days per week using

the same exercises to target the same

muscle groups each time? Meaning if she

squats on uh Monday for her quads and of

course also for uh other muscle groups,

you know, hamstrings and glutes and

lower back are going to get hit too. But

should she squat again on Wednesday and

Friday or do you recommend varying the

the the movement by uh per muscle group?

It's an option to do either. I I think

it's there's an element of personal

preference. If you're working on

improving squat strength, then you

probably do want to squat more than once

per week because it practicing the

movement is important. But if we're

talking about muscle growth, then we

have a lot of options. And so you can do

barbell work, you can do machine work,

you can do dumbbells. And we can break

it up if you wanted more variety by

saying, "Okay, Monday your lower body

exercises are going to be a squat and on

Wednesday we'll do a a good morning and

we'll work more of the posterior chain

or Friday maybe we'll do more of a a

glute dominant exercise and we'll do

some hip thrusts." And so I think it

depends how many exercises you're doing

in a session and then how long the

workout's going to be before we decide

how we're going to split that up. And so

you could do this a a more quad dominant

movement like a squat, a lunge, a leg

press, a step up, and also do more of a

glute hamstring dominant movement like a

good morning or a stiff leg deadlift.

and do both in the same session. Or you

could split those up and have more of a

quad dominant day and a more hamstring

glute dominant day.

>> Got it. Um, I'm going to drill down a

little bit more into specifics because I

anticipate that's what people will want

and it's uh probably the first time

we've had somebody uh so well qualified

to get into these specifics about

resistance training on this podcast

specifically for women. Although you're

going to tell us later that the words

specifically for women is dangerous

language. We'll we'll get back to that.

Okay. So, let's assume two or three days

per week whole body workouts. Um, one

could vary or keep the exercises per

muscle group the same. Um, how many work

sets after a sufficient warm-up? And

when I think of warm-up, I'll take the

liberty here and you can tell me where

I'm wrong. I think, okay, a light set to

kind of remind yourself what the

mechanics are, get some blood flow

going, see if anything feels like it

might need another light warm-up set and

just kind of like a stretching out. Then

a moderate set, like 50% of your one rep

max, something where you could do 10 to

15 reps, but maybe you do seven or eight

or maybe even a little heavier. And then

move to the work set. The work set

that's taken within to failure or within

a rep or two just shy of failure. How

many work sets after a sufficient

warm-up for that muscle group?

>> At least two.

>> I prefer three.

>> Uh you could do four. Beyond that is

probably overkill.

>> And that's assuming one exercise for

that muscle group for the entire

workout. So four three to four sets

per muscle group per workout, each

muscle two to three times per week

>> with the understanding that many

exercises work more than one muscle

group. So, if I'm doing a leg extension,

then I know I'm specifically working the

quads, right? But if I'm doing a leg

press or a squat, then yes, I'm working

the quads, but I'm also working the

glutes. And you can kind of say, well,

is that a half a set for the glutes? Is

that a full set for the glutes? And same

thing if we're doing a bench press. Yes,

you're working your chest, you're

working your delts, you're also working

your triceps. So, uh, is that a full set

for the triceps, or is it just a tricep

push down that I'm going to consider a

set for the triceps? So it it gets a

little bit murky when we think about

exercises that work multiple muscle

groups. But I think if we focus on those

compound movements, the the bench press,

the squats, the deadlifts, then we

should think in that range that we're

doing at least two, preferably three, uh

but beyond four probably unnecessary.

Well, at three workouts per week, you

know, it's, you know, that's getting

anywhere from, you know, nine to 12 sets

for the quads. That's that's a fair

amount of work. If one were to collapse

all of that into a single workout,

that's that's a lot of quad work. What

sort of rest intervals between sets?

>> I prefer autoregulation for rest. I

think if you have strength specific

goals, meaning you're really working on

a one rep max deadlift, let's say, in

order to repeat that type of

performance, you will need longer rest.

Um maybe four minutes, 5 minutes, it

depends, right? Uh but for an average

gym session, you know, using some

machines [clears throat] or using some

dumbbells, then two minutes is probably

fine for most people. And once you're

you've been training for a while, you'll

know when you're ready. But if it makes

you feel better to set the timer, then

I'd say 2 minutes for most exercises. Um

maybe 3 minutes for for something like a

squat or deadlift. Is there anything of

value that can be done during the rest

period other than rest and change the

weight? Of course,

>> if you want to maximize time efficiency,

then we might consider agonist

antagonist supersets. So when you look

at somebody doing a bench press or chest

press and then instead of resting for

the two to three minutes and then doing

the next set, they go and they do a row.

And so you're going back and forth and

you're you're pairing a push and a pull.

And that doesn't seem to interfere with

adaptation or even acute performance the

same way it would if you didn't rest in

between your straight sets of bench

press. So that can be a really viable

way to train especially if you are

crunched for time. So maybe a bench

press or some other press type movement,

dumbbell incline presses, whatever um

she selects and then um move immediately

from there to a pull down.

>> Sure.

>> And then wait out the remainder of the

rest interval and then do another

superset. That sort of arrangement.

>> Yep. superers setting or doing an

exercise that normally you would rest

two or three minutes between and instead

resting a minute than going doing the

antagonistic muscle and back also um

prevents getting lost in your phone

because you're on task. You know, it's

amazing how much longer workouts get

when when one starts texting or paying

attention to other things and and the

the switching back of focus from

exercise to phone is a I don't know I

don't know any good studies on this but

it it can't can't be healthy.

>> Yeah. There are also studies about

stretching in between or doing some sort

of active recovery type work in between.

We don't have enough data to say that's

necessarily beneficial. Uh but I think

if [clears throat] people are thinking I

don't want to sit and rest and do

nothing, then the the superset or even a

circuit type of structure is probably a

better way to go.

>> What about pushing past failure? some,

you know, assisted reps, aka forced

reps, done in reasonably good form, so

injury isn't a risk. Uh, drop sets where

you immediately lower the weight and get

a few more reps after failure. Are you a

fan of these so-called um intensity

techniques?

>> I think forced reps where we're not

getting much benefit from other than it

can be fun if you're working with a

training partner. [laughter]

Uh [clears throat]

drop sets um are a good kind of finisher

because they can especially if you're

doing a cable type exercise.

I'm not I'm not going to say drop sets

are better than straight sets, but it is

a way to add some kind of variety into

especially the last set of of a workout.

um or if if you're doing exercises that

are um just more conducive to drop sets

like a bicep curl or a leg extension or

something that's really easy to to

immediately [clears throat] drop the

weight and go to the next. So, it's not

better, but it's certainly a tool and it

fits into that timeefficient strategy.

>> For the longest time, I thought time

under tension and moving the weight

really slow was a value. I know that

everyone should control the weight so

that you don't get injured. No, you

know, dropping the weight and swinging

it back up and this kind of thing. Um,

but assuming that the weight is under

control, meaning momentum isn't doing

most of the work, you're being careful

to protect your um form and posture,

etc. Is there a best rate of movement

for the resistance? Should we emphasize

the the lowering phase, etc.?

>> There's always going to be a harder part

of the movement and an easier part of

the movement. So, we should

move the weight as quickly as we can

during that difficult phase and then

control on the easier phase. But trying

to intentionally slow down either

direction is not particularly

advantageous, especially if we think

about like standing up from from a

squat. We want to stand up from the

bottom of the squat as quickly as we can

under load. If we have a lot of load,

we're not going to stand up super fast,

but we should be thinking stand up

because if we don't, we're less likely

to be able to complete that repetition.

>> I think this is a really important point

that most non muscle physiologists,

exercise physiologists have not been

trained on, but I'm hearing more about

this these days that trying to move the

weight as fast as one can under control

against resistance should be the mindset

inside of the set. Is that correct? Did

I I want to make sure I'm not contorting

your words at all.

>> That's right. And when you think about

doing a set of 10, right? By the time

you get to seven, eight, nine, the

weight is already moving more slowly.

You're starting to grind it out because

it's getting more and more challenging.

And so if you are using a load that that

is appropriate, then the rate the the

time it takes for you to complete that

rep will inevitably get a little bit

longer. But that's not something you're

doing intentionally.

>> Got it. Um, getting really granular

here, but I get asked these questions

all the time and um, as it relates to

women's training specifically. You'd be

amazed that people are coming to me for

that, but almost certainly so that I

could ask you. Partial repetitions and

isometric holds. Do they have any value?

The problem with doing partial

repetitions or even playing with tempo

is that it's really difficult to

replicate consistently. And so I

mentioned earlier that we want to

progress over time. And if we're

standardizing the range of motion and

we're standardizing the exercise and

we're standardizing the tempo, then it's

easy to say, "Okay, I'm using 2 and a

half more pounds this week. I've

progressed." If we're playing around

with all of these variables and then

we're trying to add load, it starts to

get a little tricky because you're

saying, I know I'm using more load, but

am I cutting the range of motion short

in order to to to lift more? Uh am I

speeding up the reps in order to lift

more? So we want to introduce fewer

variables to make sure that we are

progressing whether it's a rep or load

>> repetition ranges. Uh earlier you said

getting close to failure or going to

failure is the critical component but

within a pretty broad range. Um, do you

think it's necessary to limit uh oneself

to certain repetition ranges on the

order of a workout, the week, the month,

a phase of the year? Um, are repetition

ranges between, you know, three and five

compatible with repetition ranges for

the, you know, other muscle groups are

the same in the same week of 10 10 to

15? I mean, I think there's a lot of um

kind of uh vagueness around there this

for women and for men. You know, you

hear, "Oh, low reps get you strong but

don't grow muscle." And then here,

higher reps, as long as you go to

failure, they'll grow muscle. And uh

that's all fine and good, but no one

really has ever said clearly how to vary

this stuff in a way that allows for the

best progress. And um I realize that's a

lot to to ask you to tackle in one

answer, but you have the mic. uh what

what are your thoughts on repetition

ranges and and how to vary them uh and

when

>> we used to think and they used to teach

all the personal trainers this there was

a strength endurance continuum such that

you're doing one to five reps and you're

building strength and then you're doing

something kind of moderate range up to

12 and that's hypertrophy and then

beyond that 12 to 20 that's in muscular

endurance and our understanding of that

has evolved certainly if you're training

for maximal strength, i.e. a one rep

max, then you need to be training in in

those lower rep ranges because that is a

sports specific uh training. And so it's

not that if you do sets of 10, your one

rep max won't get stronger. It will, but

to maximize your one rep max, then we

need to do some very high load, very low

rep training. If the goal is

hypertrophy, we have way more

flexibility because we do see similar

growth whether you're training in those

high load low rep ranges or the lower

load high rep ranges and anything in

between provided that we train close

enough to failure. However, we need to

think about overall volume because

that's very important for growth. So, if

we're doing sets of three, we're going

to need to do a lot of sets of three to

accomplish the same overall volume that

we would get by doing sets of eight or

10.

>> That last point, I'm so grateful you

said that. I used to hear the late

Charles Pulquin say this that if you're

going to use higher repetitions, let's

say between eight and 15, which for me

seems like high repetitions, um you can

I don't want to say get away with, but

you could do two or three sets per

muscle group um or per exercise and

maybe two exercises for a muscle group.

Whereas, if you were going to train in

the three to six rep range, you might

need to do eight sets of and because

typically one rests longer in between

sets when with heavier loads. Those are

two very different workouts. One is

actually much more efficient than the

other, even though it gets you something

slightly different. I'm sure people are

wondering, and I know you don't want to

bias people's choices, but do you have a

favorite repetition range for you for

your level of experience these days? I

mean, what do you typically select?

I typically

do something in the six to 12 depending

on the exercise, but I think some

exercises are fun to do 15 reps of um

and some are not. So I I think if you're

doing something like face pulls for your

rear delts or leg extensions, I would

never say, "Yeah, do a set of three."

But if you're doing squats, I don't want

to do a set of 20 squats ever. And most

people don't. Uh so I think we can for

most people say all right, somewhere in

the the kind of 6 to 12ish is a good

sweet spot. If you're new, I'd say go 8

to 12 because we want to get really

comfortable with the movement pattern.

And so if you're only doing sets of four

or sets of five, then you're not

repeating the movement enough to get

really proficient with the technique. So

I'd love for for those people to start

in a moderate rep range. I think also if

you go beyond that, then there's there's

more of a chance of uh kind of form

failure and injury risk. And so we want

to be really proficient in the moderate

rep range before we start exploring

those lower or higher rep ranges. Do you

think it's valuable uh for women to vary

the repetition or men uh to vary the

repetition ranges um like week by week

like okay this week I'm going to train

six to 10 reps on everything or um I'm

going to go three to five reps on

everything for three weeks then I'm

going to switch to six to eight for

three weeks and then I'm going to go you

know 10 to 15 for three weeks and then

repeat. Is there is there any um known

value for hypertrophy and strength

training to doing it sticking with one

thing and then systematically varying

every say three weeks?

>> You can do it that way. I prefer to

combine it into the week. So if let's

say we're doing squats twice a week,

then let's do a lower rep set day and a

moderate rep set day. And you can do

that for all of your kind of main

compound lifts. And that adds some

variety, but also means you have the

data to make sure that you're

progressing in each of those rep ranges

kind of simultaneously. Whereas if we

were to do sets of six for three weeks

and then move to sets of 12, then I

don't really have that anchor point for

am I making progress because now I'm

doing the that lift in another rep

range.

>> If you're a regular listener of the

Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt

heard me talk about the vitamin mineral

probiotic drink AG1. And if you've been

on the fence about it, now is an awesome

time to give it a try. For the next few

weeks, AG1 is giving away a full

supplement package with your first

subscription to AG1. They're giving away

a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2, a bottle

of omega-3 fish oil capsules, and a

sample pack of the new sleep formula,

AGZ, which by the way is now the only

sleep supplement I take. It's fantastic.

My sleep on AGZ is out of this world

good. AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates

the need to take a lot of pills. It

tastes great and like I said, it has me

sleeping incredibly well, waking up more

refreshed than ever. I absolutely love

it. Again, this is a limited time offer,

so make sure to go to drink

a1.com/huberman

to get started today. A moment ago, you

said something and I'm so grateful that

you said this because I don't think it's

ever been communicated as clearly as you

did and I would just want to double

click on it. Um, there's this assumption

that heavier sets, and I'm not referring

to one to three reps. I mean, let's say

in the five to eight repetition range,

final repetitions close to failure or

failure, that somehow they are more

dangerous um than high repetition sets.

In my experience, high repetitions from

15 to 25, especially on compound

movements, get people hurt

at least as often as the heavy stuff.

And I think it's because it's I'm I'm

guessing here, but that it's hard to

concentrate and generate perfect form on

a very high repetition set. And compound

movements are where you can get hurt.

You can get hurt on isolation movements,

but multi- joint movements done for 20

reps, I mean, unless you're really

locked in mentally, that's often where

people get injured is my observation.

>> Yeah, I think it's an equal opportunity

game. You know, we we really need to

make sure that form is dialed in and

that you have a spotter or a training

partner if appropriate depending on the

lift that you're doing. Because if

you're doing high rep deadlifts, for

example, you do have more opportunities

to lift the weight in such a way that

you just tweak something. And sometimes

if people are doing those lower rep

heavier sets, they're more likely to

kind of take that moment, reset, lock

in, and then perform the next rep. And

it's a bit easier to rush the set and

not kind of force yourself to to to

reset and and focus on those form cues

when you're using a load that doesn't

require you to do so.

>> Thank you. Yes, recently there was a

pretty uh avid debate online about heavy

weights versus not heavy weights,

especially for older folks. And since

now I'm 50, I place myself in that

category. I'm a big fan of low

repetitions, but not three or less. Um,

but let's just say some of my peers feel

that that's super dangerous not to

recommend, you know, five to eight

repetition range. It could be that some

people are just better at quote unquote

locking everything in and getting really

focused and doing a proper set when

there's fewer repetitions then and some

people might be great at I I realize

that doing 20 repetitions of

stiff-legged deadlifts and every

repetition is just beautiful. But isn't

there the idea that some of the smaller

supporting muscles can fatigue as a set

goes on and make one susceptible to

injury? Is that or is that just gym? Is

that just like jock science?

>> No matter what, we need to make sure

that we're appropriately warmed up and

that we're using proper technique. So,

if you try to go do a one rep max or a

set of three and you're not properly

warmed up, I'm concerned.

>> Sure. But assuming all else is equal,

then depending on the exercise, we also

have to think of overall systemic

fatigue. Even

fatigue um on the cardiovascular system

if you're doing 30 squats, you might be

out of breath before your legs give out

and that can introduce another mental

challenge to the set.

>> Excellent point. I hadn't considered

that. I also don't enjoy 20 repetition

squats. Although on the belt squat, I'm

finding some, let's just say, some

personal growth through them. Mental

personal growth. It's a whole different

thing to do high repetition leg work.

It's like a and it is very

cardiovascular. Speaking of which, um I

think most people nowadays, men and

women, uh understand that cardiovascular

exercise is important as well. And I

realize that term pisses off the

endurance athletes because what is

cardiovascular exercise? I'm talking

about something that you can repeat for

six minutes or more. um continuously uh

gets heart rate elevated and so on. I

think most people think of this as

cardio. Um how do you recommend uh

scheduling cardio with the two or three

day per week um resistance training?

Does it matter if somebody does it

before or after their weight training on

a given day? Um can they do it on the

same day? Would they be better off doing

it on other days? Uh what are the

guidelines?

So the concept of kind of the

interference effect or issues with

concurrent training come from the idea

that you have both endurance training

goals and resistance training goals and

that if you perform those too close

together that the endurance training

might blunt some of that hypertrophic

adaptation. um we see that could be true

if you're doing very high volume work

and you're stacking it very close

together. So assuming your hypertrophy

or strength is the goal, then we would

want to perform that first and if

possible, separate them by, you know, at

least several hours. But we really don't

run into true uh interference effect

type results unless we're doing tons of

training and you know, you're doing your

sprints before you do your leg workout.

I would avoid that. I think we also need

to think about whether we have endurance

training goals or we're just trying to

be fit for health. Most people listening

to this probably

um would like to get stronger, probably

would like to add muscle to specific

muscles and maybe have it in mind and

we'll get here in a moment to not

deliberately not add muscle to other

muscles and um to be what they consider

lean enough and that want to be fit. I

always think of the the general life

requirements like you want to be able to

carry your suitcase or bagging if you

have to run for the plane that you can

do it without coughing up along. Pick

things up and not get injured. Sprint if

you need to. Play a game of frisbee or

soccer or or or volleyball, a pickup

game at the picnic or something. Uh go

for a hike maybe with a kid on your

back, maybe with a backpack if you don't

have kids. I think the sort of like just

ability to go out on a Sunday and take a

long hike with a pack without having to

train for it. the ability to sprint for

the plane without without dying when you

arrive there. Um, these kinds of things

to me are the real life metrics. I feel

like that's what most people want. And

then of course some people want to run

marathons and be powerliffters and, you

know, Alex Hunnel just, you know, scaled

a a tower in Taipei without any ropes.

So, you know, there's a huge range, but

I think what I described, I think, is

where most of us are at. What do you

think most women are at?

>> Lifting weights is so important because

we don't have a lifestyle

fun equivalent activity.

>> Mhm. But I don't think we all need to be

going for a jog or spending an hour on

the elliptical if we prefer playing

tennis or going for bike rides with

friends or going for hikes or something

that is physically active and enjoyable

and that we will be more likely to do

consistently. So there is an element of

that that can be really freeing for

people because they think, "Oh, well

then I don't need to worry about adding

these structured cardio sessions in my

week. I'm just going to do those outdoor

physical activities with friends that

I'm enjoying and also benefiting from."

>> What are the data on walking? Um I've

heard 7,000 steps or so per day is a is

a good number to shoot for. where I

heard that the 10,000 number was just

kind of thrown out there the same way

that 8 hours of intermittent fasting was

just kind of thrown out there. We'll get

back to that. How important and helpful

is walking for women in particular?

>> I like to think of walking as something

you can do that is not structured

exercise. And so we're not thinking

about

meeting a step count necessarily. You

can do that, but people who focus on

something like step counts usually do so

for a few months and then stop because

being kind of obsessive about tracking

that metric gets a little old.

>> And it's important to think not only

about hitting one target, whether it's,

you know, minutes of exercise per week

or step count or heart rate goal, but

what are we doing for the the other

hours in the day? So I think somebody

who isn't active at all going from doing

very few steps to getting it up to four,

five, 6 thousand steps, yes, we're going

to see a huge benefit. But if you're

somebody who is physically active in a

variety of ways and you are moving

throughout the day, not necessarily

focusing purely on steps, then

that metric of step count is a little

bit less useful because we are getting

in that overall activity that is going

to be beneficial for health. So, what

I'm hearing is if a woman is in the gym

two or three days per week lifting the

way that you described and has some

outdoor or or indoor social sport type

activities that she enjoys, there's no

need to specifically add cardio unless

there's an endurance goal or a sprint

competition goal. Is that right?

>> Yeah. And I think a lot of people are

adding cardio for weight loss goals and

that is a bit of a fool's errand because

the fat loss that we will get from just

adding exercise is pretty disappointing

relative to the fat loss that we will

see when we adjust our nutrition.

>> What about getting up toward max heart

rate for sake of the dreaded V2 max? No,

I don't say dreaded. I mean, I just

think it's funny cuz, you know, 5 years

ago, no one was talking about heart rate

variability and V2 max. I mean, again,

I'm not trying to inject male fitness or

my routine into it, but by virtue of

what I've learned in the course of the

podcast and also what I enjoy, I make it

a point to get on the aine bike or some

other thing I can do at max effort or

close to it without getting injured um

and do, you know, 30 second sprint, 30

second rest, 30 second sprint for at

least once a week, ideally twice. I'm

assuming, and you tell me, you have the

the the credentials here. Uh I'm

assuming that by getting my heart rate

way way up uh for a couple minutes each

week, that I'm doing myself some benefit

separate from my resistance training.

Is that true or is it or is it um

because I I see I mean, I'm not a

calorie counter. Kind of an intuitive

sense of what I need. Um, but I see, you

know, at the end of those workouts, it

says I burned 100 calories, which is,

you know, I, you know, I walk I eat 100

calories of blueberries in one pass by

the [clears throat] blueberry basket.

So, so I'm not trying to do it for

caloric burn sake.

>> Yeah. The value of the really

highintensity stuff is time efficiency.

So, if we look at those adaptations to

endurance exercise or if we're going to

just say cardio broadly, then you can

get those by doing more long form

moderate intensity. You can also get

those by doing higher intensity for

shorter amounts of time. So, it's not

that [clears throat]

it's magic in terms of the adaptation,

but you're able to get more bang for

your buck because you're doing that

higher intensity and you don't need to

do it for quite as long.

>> Let's talk about the somewhat barbedwire

topic uh these days about variations in

hormones as they relate to the menstrual

cycle and training requirements.

There's a lot of assumptions about this.

There's a lot of conjecture and I do

believe there's also a lot of outright

fabrication. Not because anyone

necessarily uh wants to mislead, but I

don't think anyone has spent as much

time with the data on this as you have.

So, should women train differently

depending on where they are in their

menstrual cycle?

>> The short answer is no. The conversation

around the menstrual cycle is good. I

think it's good that we're talking about

it. It's good that people feel

comfortable discussing it with their

coach.

The unfortunate shift of because you

have a menstrual cycle and because

hormones are fluctuating, you need to

change how you are exercising is way too

simplistic and doesn't align with the

data that we have. So instead of

worrying about whether you're in this

phase or that phase or whether estradile

is high or low, I would really focus on

how you feel.

Train hard, train consistently, train

progressively. If at some point in your

cycle you experience menstrual symptoms

or fatigue or a lack of motivation that

you relate to menration, then having an

option to skip a workout or adjust the

exercises that you're doing for that

workout or do another form of exercise

that day is completely fine. Not saying

you have to grind it out, push through,

but you are not less capable that day

because you have your menstrual period

or because the hormone profile has

shifted in one direction or another.

>> There's a broader conversation around

this, I think, about when to push

through internal resistance, either just

kind of general malaise, like one

doesn't feel well or didn't sleep well,

um whether or not one is feeling run

down. Maybe we can kind of tuck that

into this conversation about uh ways to

vary training or not vary training

according to phase of the menstrual

cycle. Let's say somebody is not feeling

as rested as they normally do or would

like to. And I say that because people

assume you need eight hours of sleep,

right? I one might need eight, they

might need 10. I'm fine on 6 and 1 half

to seven. I prefer eight, but actually 6

and 1 half to seven I'm good. five,

that's a whole other issue. So,

should women push through a day of a

workout if they got, you know, maybe an

hour or two less than their normal

ration of sleep that they need? Is it or

are they putting themselves in some sort

of danger if they do that?

>> There's no danger. You might feel worse,

>> but subjective

measures of performance are different

often from objective measures of

performance. And that goes for the

menstrual cycle symptoms and and other

factors as well. So you might go in and

and deadlift the same weight as last

week and you'd say, "Wow, this feels

really heavy or the weight's moving

really slow this morning." But you're

still lifting it. So objectively, the

performance was the same. It's just your

experience of what it felt like differs.

It feels harder today. To your point,

that can be the case for a variety of

reasons. We can be underslept or we are

jet-lagged or we're stressed about

something workrelated and feeling

distracted. There's a lot of reasons why

we don't have a 10 out of 10 workout

every single time we go to the gym. So,

I think there's an argument to be made

to Yeah. push forward, just do it

anyway. even a subpar workout is better

than no workout at all.

>> In your experience and observation, um

do you think that women who take up

resistance training enjoy it on average?

Do they tend to enjoy it or do they tend

to um enjoy the feeling afterwards? How

do you how do you feel about resistance

training?

>> I think it's particularly powerful for

women because and I alluded to this

earlier, there's a history of

marketing ineffective programs to women

or encouraging them to constantly switch

it up. Try this new group fitness class

or try this new at home video workout

and they never really see the results

that they are hoping to see. And so

you're just program hopping and

disappointed and feeling like I'm

putting in all this work. I'm doing the

thing and I'm not seeing results. When

you stick to a good resistance training

program for long enough, not only do you

start to see results in the way that

your body looks, because muscle growth

can change your body composition and can

change your physique, but you also have

this empowering feeling of progression

over time. I can get stronger. I can do

more. And that keeps you coming back.

It's really motivating. So, I think that

can be really powerful that you feel

like you're getting something out of

what you're putting in and you're more

likely to stick to it long term.

>> For anyone, but since we're talking

mainly about uh women's resistance

training today, um

do you think there's value to spending

two or three weeks, maybe less, maybe

more, just learning movements properly

before getting into the whole business

of progressive overload?

>> Yes. Because the problem is you start to

see, oh, I can do more than I did last

week. And then you think, oh, well, this

is linear, right? And so you think, I

can add 10 pounds every week forever. It

doesn't work like that. So inevitably

you end up uh training in or many of us

have trained in such a way that we

injured something, tweaked something,

form failed because we got so focused on

just lifting more weight, lifting more

weight, lifting more weight. So, I agree

that uh a slower progression could be

better, but that's also the power of

just trying to add another rep instead

of trying to add weight week in and week

out.

>> We're all told we just kind of like need

to exercise. And there's examples of how

to do movements, but be wonderful if

there was kind of like getting the

basics. Like a sprinter doesn't just go

sprint, they learn how to do all these

drills and um and move into it. And some

of these things are complex and it's not

just about avoiding injury. It's about

getting the most out of the exercise

over time. That's kind of how I'm I'm

thinking about this.

>> I think it's also making sure that you

are using proper technique and full

range of motion because that's one of

the other things that is often the first

to go when we really try to load up and

load up and load up. And you see this

with people squatting and benching all

the time. they're just adding another

plate but then cutting the range of

motion short to accommodate that

additional load. And so that's not

really progressive overload because you

changed your range of motion. So I think

especially if a lift is technically

demanding something like a hinge, you

know, deadlift, good morning. For a lot

of people who've never done that

movement pattern, it can be really

difficult to just develop that

kinesthetic awareness like where am I in

space? Am I bending my knees too much or

not enough? Um am am I starting to round

my upper back? And when you can really

understand the proper form, then you

know how to load it.

>> If a woman just feels lousy at one

particular phase of her cycle, and

that's a consistent month-to-month thing

for her and she doesn't want to train

during that time.

It sounded like there's no issue with

that that you're not suggesting that you

that women push through that necessarily

that they we're on the West Coast that

they honor their their feelings is how

people speak out here. Um that they

honor their feelings as opposed to push

against the you know the the sense like

it this is just a tough time to do this.

But you're from New York and you're

giving me this look now where that makes

people who are people are just

listening. Um Lauren's looking at me

like, "Yeah, that sounds like uh you

know, I don't know." So, but I don't

want to put words in your mouth. What

are you thinking?

>> Well, I'll tell you this. We have survey

data looking at how many people report

experiencing menstrual symptoms, things

like uh cramps and low back pain, uh

lack of motivation, irritability. And 75

80% of women report feeling those

symptoms. and none of them report

changing their training in response to

those symptoms. So, and not to say that

you shouldn't, but typically, at least

where the data shows, it's not that

common that people are overhauling their

training even in response to menstrual

symptoms. That said, most people

experience them for one or two days. So,

we're only talking about skipping or

adjusting one, maybe two workouts. So, I

I don't feel that strongly about it

either way. I think it, you know, it's

up to you. And like I said, there will

be a variety of reasons within any given

month why we show up to the gym and we

don't feel our best. And some of those

days, again, for a variety of reasons,

we might decide to make some adjustments

and other days we might just decide to

push through. And both are completely

acceptable.

It's an unfortunate reality, but tap

water often contains contaminants that

negatively impact our health. In fact, a

2020 study by the Environmental Working

Group estimated that more than 200

million Americans are exposed to PAS

chemicals, also known as forever

chemicals, through drinking of tap

water. These forever chemicals are

linked to serious health issues such as

hormone disruption, gut microbiome

disruption, fertility issues, and many

other health problems. The Environmental

Working Group has also shown that over

122 million Americans drink tap water

with high levels of chemicals known to

cause cancer. It's for all these reasons

that I'm thrilled to have Rora as a

sponsor of this podcast. I've been using

the Aurora countertop system for almost

a year now. Rurora's filtration

technology removes harmful substances,

including endocrine disruptors and

disinfection byproducts, while

preserving beneficial minerals like

magnesium and calcium. It requires no

installation or plumbing. It's built

from medical grade stainless steel and

its sleek design fits beautifully on

your countertop. In fact, I consider it

a welcome addition to my kitchen. It

looks great and the water is delicious.

If you'd like to try Rora, you can go to

roora.com/huberman

and get an exclusive discount. Again,

that's r o r a.com/huberman.

If I'm not mistaken, you've uh looked at

the data on the relationship between

hormone-based contraception and effects

of exercise. Um, and I want to be very

clear. I said hormone-based

contraception because there are so many

different forms of contraception. Some

of which are hormone based, some of

which aren't. And of course, within the

domain of hormone-based, you've got

estrogen based, progesterine based, and

and there's others as well. What are the

general and more specific takeaways from

that uh literature? Does hormone-based

contraception impact the adaptation to

exercise, the motivation to exercise, or

anything else that women should be aware

of? Um, what do the data say? The

majority of these studies are on folks

taking combined oral contraceptive

pills. So, this wouldn't apply to

something like a hormonal IED uh or or

the there's a patch that people are

using now that it's more modern take,

but there is enough data at this point

to say when it comes to strength,

hypertrophy, power, we're not seeing

combined oral contraceptive pills move

the needle in either direction. And

there were appropriate hypotheses to

say, oh, maybe this could be detrimental

or maybe this could be beneficial. But

what we see similar to the influence of

the endogenous hormone fluctuations,

which are quite substantial, if those

aren't affecting performance or exercise

induced adaptations, it's not that

shocking that the hormonal

contraceptives wouldn't move the needle

to a great extent either.

>> Yeah, it's an excellent point. I mean,

if one just looks at the uh the plot of

estrogen levels or progesterone levels

across the different phases of the

menstrual cycle, you know, these are

enormous differences. Uh likewise for

testosterone and other and other

hormones in women. Um and you're making

the point that uh hormone based uh pill

contraception um is making changes in

hormones of at least that magnitude. And

and so there's no reason to expect that

it should impact um at least ability.

I can think of motivation to train um

ability somehow like if it relates

somehow to contractile ability the

muscles or or tendon um uh tendon

strength or something and then the

actual adaptation like so it sounds like

none of these things block the

adaptation to exercise the increase in

muscle size or strength or both. Is that

right?

>> That's right. I I would say if you're

just starting a contraceptive pill there

some people have symptoms and side

effects some of which are kind of

attenuated over time and some of which

are not and you need to switch to

something else. So you might for a short

term because that pill is not a good fit

for you then there could there could be

some short-term influence in that sense.

But on the flip side, a lot of people go

on a hormonal contraceptive because they

have really severe menstrual symptoms

and then that can be helpful in

relieving that pain. And so then you

might be willing to to go to the the gym

more frequently during the week where

you have your menstrual period. So I I

think we can we can think about those

kind of practical implications, but in

terms of just the hormones themselves

and the fact that, you know, we're

downregulating the endogenous hormone

production by introducing these

synthetic hormones that doesn't seem to

impact performance or adaptations to

exercise.

>> What if any are the really good data

around the relationship between

pmenopause and menopause and the hormone

changes that tend to occur? Let's assume

without hormone replacement therapy for

the moment and training. Should women

change their training as they enter

permenopause, menopause?

>> There's no reason to change your

training because we still want the same

adaptations. We want to increase and

maintain muscle size and strength. We

want to reduce fall risk and fracture

risk, maintain bone density. And so

resistance training is going to be a

really key component of an exercise

program for somebody uh pre and post

menopause. I think the idea that somehow

the hormonal changes would influence

muscle are really tied to that same

thought process that cycle syncing is

based on. And so it comes down to this

hypothesis that there is this

relationship between estrogen and

muscle. And so is if estrogen is

declining with menopause, then that

would have some effect on muscle. But we

don't see that. We see age related

muscle loss that is exacerbated by

physical inactivity. But you look at

lean mass across the men the across the

menopause transition and that in and of

itself isn't accelerating the loss of of

muscle.

>> I think for understandable reasons

there's this correlation that people

draw between hormones and muscle and

since resistance training is more kind

of muscle oriented in people's minds

anyway I mean you got you know tendon

and bone etc than cardiovascular

training. It's a silly thing but we kind

of make that association. There seem all

these things around uh women's fitness.

It's like should training change uh

during different phases of the menstrual

cycle because after all menstrual cycle

is hormones. Hormones affect how one

feels but also muscle. Here we are you

know back to muscle.

that changes in muscle size and strength

as one ages in my understanding are just

as much a function of atrophy of nerve

to muscle connections the strength of

those as they are some drop in hormones

and I think it's never really been

stated out loud you know so I just want

your thoughts on this um do you think

that if people understood that a lot of

muscle and strength loss is inactivity

as you said and inact activity brings a

weakening of the nerve to muscle

connection that it might help us get

away a little bit from this idea that

everything about muscles is hormones and

everything about hormones is muscle that

they're equally important. I really

realize I'm leading the witness here a

little bit, but I I'll just out you.

Your father's a neuroscientist. How

important is the nervous system and the

changes that the nervous system normally

undergoes as one ages important here? Is

that what we're trying to do or are we

trying to offset some of that? It's

important too because we need to

maintain those connections for all

movement patterns right and so when we

see long periods of physical inactivity

think you know immobilization or bed

rest the rate at which you lose muscle

is shocking I mean it's really really

dramatic and so we know that is a very

extreme model of of atrophy that we we

want to avoid but there are other

versions of that in just daily kind of

sedentary life. You're not on bed rest,

but and you're not technically

immobilized, but you're moving so

infrequently that you are exacerbating

muscle loss. And even if you are just

physically active, even if you're not

lifting weights, you're much more likely

to maintain that muscle. But once you

stop being physically active, then we

run into a lot of problems.

If more people understood the neural

aspect of all this exercise stuff and

muscle and how that relates to fitness

and brain health, I think it would help

men and women kind of get around this

thing that you mentioned earlier. It's

just kind of hovering my mind that so

much of the way that fitness has been

presented, exercise has been presented

to women is around weight loss.

>> And now the conversation seems to be

changing. It's about longevity. It's

about maintaining muscle. It's about

maintaining brain health and not getting

injured. And so it seems like it's

morphing slightly.

>> I think that is missed in resistance

training because we just think about it

at the muscle level. But when we think

about motor unit recruitment, that is a

neural pathway. And we need all of those

to stay intact to perform any kind of

motor function. And so when we are

lifting weights, we're not exclusively

building muscle. And that's why we see

tendon adaptations, bone adaptations,

everything is connected. And it's also

why if you're somebody who is aging, but

you're physically active in a way that

requires a certain type of coordination,

maybe it's pickle ball, um that that is

really helpful as well. I think the idea

that you have to go to the gym is

intimidating for some people because a

lot of women in their minds think that

they're going to be the only woman in

the gym. That's less and less true, but

in my experience, it's still the weight

room is still probably a maledominated

section of the gym. I think the biggest

fear is not knowing what to do. And

machines can be a really good place to

start if you're somebody who doesn't

want to work with a trainer and is a

little bit nervous about trying to

selfach those movement patterns with

barbells or dumbbells. A lot of

commercial gyms these days have a

circuit of machines and you can start

there and kind of get comfortable with

those movement patterns. get comfortable

with what is challenging, what is close

to failure, and then progress to some of

these other exercises and equipment.

>> Yeah. When I've tried to encourage

family me female family members like to

weight train, like I don't want to go to

a gym. Like, why not? They're like, I I

like my yoga class. I like Pilates. I

like going for hikes. What do you think

are some things that women could do to

sort of lower those barriers for for

people? starting with group fitness

because even though most group fitness

classes are suboptimal from the

perspective of a sound resistance

training program, it gets you into the

gym. It gets you feeling comfortable. It

will teach you some of those movement

patterns that we've discussed. And then

maybe after class, you and a couple of

friends that you've made in class can go

and and try out a couple of machines.

And so you can kind of ease into it that

way. And people gravitate towards group

fitness because it's social and you have

an appointment because you have to be

there at at a specific time. So that can

be another good kind of entry point to

get you going to the gym without feeling

overwhelmed by exercises you're not sure

how to perform or or equipment that

you're not sure how to use. In terms of

the relationship between hormones,

menstrual cycle, and training, I know

I'm staying on this, but it comes up. I

mean, you've on social media. I mean, I

don't know what percentage of questions

that you get on social media relate to

hormones and training uh as they relate

to one another.

>> It's a lot. I think now more than ever,

you're just seeing more and more of this

messaging pop up. And with the menstrual

cycle, it's not only about exercise. I

see uh the way you should eat

differently due to cycle phase, the way

you should work differently, the way you

should socialize differently. Um there

are all of these messages that are

saying you need to kind of overhaul this

aspect of your life to align with these

phases. Is there any evidence that

resistance training can help amelate

some of the um symptoms of of the

negative symptoms of uh certain phases

of the cycle that women might be

experiencing? In other words, do they

often feel better by training during the

most difficult phase of their cycle? Has

that ever been demonstrated?

>> Not with resistance training

specifically, but with physical

activity, sure. Uh it it it can

definitely help. Um because you if you

have something like cramps then just

kind of doing something to increase

blood flow even if it's going for a walk

can be helpful and it also kind of gets

your mind off of it so you're not

actually sitting there kind of focusing

on the fact that you're uncomfortable

and it depends on the person but I think

some sort of physical activity can be

beneficial and that's something that

that you should consider exploring

whether it's resistance training or

anything else.

>> What about the nutrition um aspect uh in

the menstrual cycle?

>> The nutrition data is pretty poor

because as is most nutrition data, it's

kind of self-report. And so we're saying

observationally

people tend to eat a little bit more in

this phase versus that phase on average

based on self-reported food diaries.

Does that mean that you should change

caloric intake or protein intake or

carbohydrate intake? We don't have the

data to support any of that. And a lot

of it comes back to this theory that you

have a kind of an anabolic phase or a

catabolic phase. And so that extended

from oh you should focus on more

resistance training during this phase to

oh well then you must need more protein

in this other phase. So what kind of

started as a hypothesis about anabolic

and catabolic states has twisted into

changing your exercise program and

changing your diet among other things.

>> I spoke to a couple different uh women

prior to sitting down with you today

because I needed data from actual women

as opposed to my ideas about what they

might be thinking, right? Or what I see

online, right? Um these are people I'm

close with and and uh I believe they

were honest with me and for the it

wasn't an enormous poll. This is uh not

an official study, but I heard something

at least three times out of the five

people I spoke to and it was this. I

know I should lift weights, but I feel

like I get enough muscle training from

my Pilates or yoga. And I said, "Yeah,

but couldn't those things be really

different than resistance training?" And

the answer that I got back was similar

in several cases, which was, "Yeah, but

my Pilates teacher, she looks awesome

and she has tons of energy and she's 10

years older than me and I want to look

like her, so I'm going to do Pilates."

And I said, "Well, do you does she lift

weights?" And she said, "No, she just

does Pilates." And I said, "Well, I

wonder if she like did gymnastics when

we were younger." And then pretty soon

I'm now the guy having this like

conversation trying to essentially

negotiate something I have no interest

in negotiating. But it gave me a window

into something that I think might be

pretty common, which is that um we all

look at somebody and what they're doing

and we go, "Oh, like that seems like a

look that is reasonable and and

attractive and I I would want that and

they seem to be like kicking butt in

life and happy and I'm going to just do

that." And so what do you say to women

who perhaps think like they're as

muscular as they want to be now doing

Pilates and walking and maybe doing some

other activities, but they're not doing

resistance training. Is there some

reason why they should be motivated to

also resistance train? what you're

describing is very common and

unfortunately for the vast majority of

people they then go and do the exercise

class or follow what this person eats in

a day and they never end up looking like

that person because we have genetic

factors, nutritional factors, exercise

factors and sometimes no matter what

we're not going to have the body of this

other person. But Pilates is

particularly guilty of promising these

dramatic changes in body composition.

And that if you do this class that

you're going to get toned, you're you're

going to increase your muscle mass and

get these long lean lines or you'll look

like a dancer. And so we're when we when

we use that word, which we don't, toned,

but when people use it, they mean

increase muscle size and decrease body

fat. And the most effective and

efficient way to accomplish that is

through resistance training to increase

muscle size and through nutritional

adjustments to decrease body fat.

Even if you're happy doing the Pilates

and walking right now, and I'm not

saying give that up because I'm a fan of

all physical activity that people enjoy,