Pick the choice as often as possible

that is slightly more difficult. To me,

it's the small stuff that nobody sees

that makes the biggest difference in the

world. Everybody knows the harder choice

versus the easier choice. Everybody

to include myself will look externally

and say what do I need to do? I know

what I need to do and so do they. They

need to do the thing then even if it's

microscopic that they want to do less

more often than they do the thing that

they want to do more. That over time is

the juice. Welcome to the Huberman Lab

podcast where we discuss [music] science

and science-based tools for everyday

life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Andy Stumpf, a retired Navy

Seal and subsequently a member of the

Red Bull High Performance Team where he

was a wing suitor, where they literally

get into what some people call squirrel

suits and fly. He set two world records

wing suiting. But today's discussion is

not really prompted by his career in the

military, nor his wing suiting, although

it does impact the discussion. Today's

discussion was prompted by my reading of

Andy's recent book called Drown Proof.

Now, there are a lot of books out there

by former Navy Seals, but upon reading

it, I realized that this was a special

book and that Andy's experience and the

lessons he shares and most importantly,

the tools he shares are both unique and

indeed important for everyone to hear.

For instance, he describes a tool in

there that I now use every single week,

which has allowed me and many other

people, and I'm certain you to separate

out issues of concern versus issues of

impact. meaning to allow you to actually

be able to impact perhaps not control

but certainly have an impact on certain

things while ignoring the issues in life

that distract you that pull you into

drama and that can numb you out and that

essentially waste your life. Today

you'll learn what that exercise is and

how to implement it in your life. You'll

also learn a lot of other simple tools

about how to take the slightly harder

road in certain moments versus the

easier road. You'll also learn from Andy

about the most difficult things that he

encountered in life and how he navigated

them. And no, those weren't in the

military nor wings suiting. It actually

comes from his personal life which he

shares very candidly. And finally, we

have a very serious and in many ways

somewhat emotional discussion about

suicide and mental health more

generally. I do hope that that

discussion will benefit all of you. I'm

certainly we are certainly I should say

very open to your input. That discussion

of course raises more questions than it

provides answers. But I think we can all

agree that this is an extremely

important and timely topic. The

frequency of suicide is increasing

significantly in all communities. So for

reasons related to the range and the

nature of the specific topics that we

discuss today, you're in for a very

special episode. Thank you, Andy Stumpf.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

that this podcast is separate from my

teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however part of my desire and

effort to bring zero cost to consumer

information about science and science

related tools to the general public. In

keeping with that theme, today's episode

does include sponsors. All right, my

book is finally ready for release.

Protocols, an operating manual for the

human body is coming out in 3 months.

It's my first book and I've been working

on it for many years now and it's really

a reflection of decades of research and

experience that came even prior to

starting the book. My goal for this book

is that it serves as an easytouse manual

for dealing with any number of different

pain points or performance goals that

you might have in terms of mental

health, physical health, and

performance. It covers the science and

most effective protocols for sleep,

nutrition, exercise, focused learning,

and neuroplasticity, stress management,

and much more. I'm super excited to

share it with all of you. The launch

date is September 15th. You can learn

more about it or pre-order by going to

protocolsbook.com.

It's also available on Amazon.com. And

I'm super excited that Protocols is

finally ready for release. And as

always, thank you for your interest in

science. And now for my discussion with

Andy Stumpf. Andy Stumpf, welcome.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> I read your book, Drown Proof Reese,

>> which makes me nervous, by the way.

Telling you that before we started.

>> Listen, I've read [laughter]

a lot of books, including a lot of the

quote unquote seal books. It's awesome.

I'll mention a few of the reasons why

it's awesome, but I'll let people read

it for themselves. But just to really

get right to it, one of the practices

that you describe in the book is

something that I decided to do right

away, and I've been doing every week

since I listened to it. Now, granted, I

just listened to the book a few weeks

ago, so that means twice, but I found it

to be tremendously useful, not just

during the exercise, but in the days

that follow. And it's really uh remapped

a lot of uh what I would call my

unhealthy tendencies and given me much

more sense of agency and my days are are

just going so much better. In fact, I

was on time today for the first time in

my life.

>> Influence versus concern.

>> Yes. So, could you describe this uh

simple exercise because I I'll tell you

having having done it, it is immensely

powerful. I only wish I had learned

about it like in junior high school.

>> Story of my life. Yeah. Uh so first off,

not my creation. This is something I

don't remember and I think I said this

multiple times in the book because I

want to be very clear that of basically

taking ownership over nothing in that

book because they're not my unique

ideas. They were things that were taught

to me that I'm trying to pass forward.

So, I don't remember exactly where I

first saw this, but the way it was first

uh positioned to me was your circle or

sphere of influence, which is very

small, and your sphere of concern, which

for most people, to include myself, is

very large. So, if it was the size of

this table, that would be your concern.

The influence would be the size of a pin

drop on the table. And the exercise is

actually really simple. Take a standard

piece of paper, draw a line down the

middle, concern on one side, influence

on the other, and you just take the time

to write down the things that are

occupying your waking hours. I don't

know if you're anything like me, I try

not to set an alarm unless I have

something really pressing that day, but

if I do wake up and my brain does a

revolution, I have to get out of bed

because otherwise I'm staring at the

ceiling in the bedroom. And

if I have really sticky things in the

morning, I'll I'll usually do this about

once a month or once every six months

now. But almost every time that thought

will be on the left hand side of the

column. It's just a concern. Why is it

preventing me from going back to sleep?

Why can't I let go of it? And it's

social media, the world that we all live

in. It's things you can't control. It's

just all the stuff that you spend your

energy and effort focusing on. And then

you go to the other side of that paper

and I'm still yet to find more than one

thing that you can write down. And

that's the direct influence that you

have. And all you really can write on

that is yourself. Now you can you can

tunch that out and say your thought

process, the way you speak to yourself,

the way you plan your day, the way you

manage your time. But all that goes back

into things you can actually directly

control which leads you to the

realization or leads me to the

realization that I have no control over

what happens to me in my life but I have

absolute and complete and total control

over how I respond to it. And I think

that speaks to the agency piece and it

helps me especially when I have those

sticky thoughts. It helps me at least

take a step back. I'm not going to say

I'm perfect and I can put down a lot of

the things that I'm concerned with, but

it will identify for me a healthy or an

unhealthy attachment to those things and

it does help me cross back over to okay,

I understand that this is scary or

concerning, but being scared or

concerned about it doesn't impact

outcome. Everything on the right hand

side of the paper does. So that's what

it does for me. Man, you want to talk

about developing some more efficiencies?

It's a great tool. It's startling how

much is going to be on the left and how

little is going to be on the right.

>> Yeah, it's been a game changer for me

because and maybe I misinterpreted the

exercise a little bit because on the uh

right hand side of the uh the page, I've

been listing out the things that I can

control and the things that I can do

with my time.

>> That still goes back to you're

controlling the management of your time.

That's totally fine.

>> And with all these tools, I don't think

there is a wrong answer if it has the

impact that you're looking for. Again,

you could titrate all that back up to

you controlling yourself and what you do

with your time. I think it's perfect.

>> Yeah. Again, just an awesome exercise. I

really encourage everyone to do it for

me once a week has been very helpful and

it just pops to mind anytime I'm

thinking like I saw something in the

news yesterday and and you start going

down these rabbit holes and you're like,

wait, what am I doing? Like, what am I

doing? And and we can blame the

algorithms, we can blame the world, but

ultimately Yeah. You know, it's, you

know, once you realize that you're being

manipulated, I think the obligation is

to not follow that that path.

>> The algorithm is real. I don't know what

it means. I've listened to people argue

about it at nauseium, but I have the

choice as to whether or not I interface

with the algorithm. And that's where the

power

>> that's what I think the algorithm is

trying to do is figure out a way to take

that power away from you

>> and put it back into their hands. But

it's optional.

>> You learned this some years ago.

>> Yes.

>> In the teams.

>> Yes.

>> But you still do it now about once a

month.

>> Mhm.

>> Mhm. [clears throat] you carry around

with you.

>> If you're anything like me, I spend a

lot of time on airplanes. It's a really

good time to occupy yourself with

something that is for me at least

productive as opposed to just tuning out

and watching YouTube videos of sovereign

citizens get arrested, which is one of

my favorite pastimes. I highly recommend

people get into it.

>> These are the people that um that say

you can't arrest me. I'm a sovereign

citiz.

Are they out there testing the law or

are they hoping that they'll get, you

know, flagged and and that there'll be a

video so they can promote the sovereign

citizen thing or they are they just

really into being sovereign citizens and

living their lives?

>> I think some of them fall into the first

category and I think some of them

actually just legitimately believe.

>> Okay.

>> And they uh there's amazing things on

the internet.

>> You shouldn't believe all of them,

>> right? [laughter]

>> Maybe even most of them.

>> That's a fair point actually. the vast

majority of things you should take I

think with a large dose of scrutiny on

the internet.

>> We're about the same age. So late 40s

for you, 50 for me. I was thinking about

this in light of this concern versus

influence exercise, which is, you know,

that they created these like 10 and 20

and 30 year high school reunion things.

I think for the reason that you have the

choice to go back and learn about what

people are doing and who's still

married, who's still alive, who's

thriving, or what whatever, whatever the

reason is, we have these things called

reunions. But with social media, there's

this opportunity to be constantly aware

of everybody you grew up with, them of

you, uh people you knew 5 years ago in a

job that you no longer think about. So I

I feel like that left column now has

grown tremendously regardless of

somebody's age. The opportunity to be

aware of so many more things not just

distant in other countries and other

other issues entirely but like our past

lives are very much like anchored to us

now unless we really literally draw that

line and and sever from all that stuff.

Because like as much as I wish the best

for all my classmates and all these

people in graduate school and whether

like it it really a lot of it should not

occupy one's mind. Do you ever wonder

whether social media itself is making it

harder to do this exercise?

>> I think it could be. Do you know who

Chad Wright is?

>> Yes, I know of him and we've

corresponded a little bit.

>> He is hilarious.

>> You want We should probably describe it.

>> He does the same type of stuff that

Gogggins does. He's an endurance

athlete.

>> Long red beard. I call him the Forest

Gump of the Seal teams to his face so

I'm comfortable saying it. He's amazing.

I've had him on the show a couple times.

Uh knew him when we were in the teams

together and he came on the show on my

show in November and I don't know

[clears throat] how we started talking

about it but it was this conversation

around screen time. It's like all right

bud [clears throat] let's pull the

phones out. Let's see what we got. It's

not awesome. I think it was 4 and 1/2

hours. So, we decided that in January of

this year, we're going to try to drive

our screen time per day to under an hour

for total phone usage. I think phone

calls we were able to strip out of that.

[gasps]

I think the closest he got was about 90

minutes. And then the last week of

January for me, I got mine down to 30

minutes. Now, for clarity, I was still

doing a lot of the stuff that I was

doing on my phone, but I forced it over

to my laptop, which was a really

interesting experience because it's way

less sticky on that platform. So,

Instagram on your laptop sucks. [snorts]

It's not intuitive. The things that you

would normally just do with your thumb,

they don't exist. So, you end up closing

your laptop up. So, I'd get on there,

post what I wanted to, and then just

leave. My mental health was better in

January than it had been in a long time.

So, I 100% think that social media is

not only designed to suck up as much as

that left-hand portion of your list as

possible, but again, it's it's optional.

I mean, you create content, you have a

massive platform. I create content. We

can easily tell ourselves we have to

exist on these platforms, which to a

degree we do. The question I ask myself

is, is the platform working for me or am

I working for it? And that's the healthy

relationship. And I think actually that

goes right back to that exercise. Am I

targeting what I do with my time and

being efficient with it and then moving

on? Or am I just getting stuck into this

thumb scroll of death, which is right

before bed? I've heard you say it's the

best time to have electronic device

light.

>> Yeah. [laughter] Real bright in a dark

room

>> right before bed. Right.

>> If you really want to maximize, make

sure you do it first thing in the

morning, too. And don't get outside and

look at the sun, you know. But it's so

sticky. I'm telling you, when I hopped

over to my laptop,

>> at first I couldn't even figure out how

to post a picture

>> and it's so clunky and so not intuitive

that you don't want to play with it.

>> Are you still there now?

>> Oh, no. I went right back to using my

thumb.

>> What's Chad doing now with his uh social

media? Is he still

>> He's probably doubled it. He said the

same thing, too, by the way. Man, this

is amazing. We should do this more often

and just right back to being on your

thumb again by probably March. So what's

mindboggling about this is and you'll

tell me no we're just ordinary people

who were trained to do extraordinary

things but you know seal seal selection

you know pairs down you know for every

hundred guys you know maybe 15 get

through maybe 10 you know consistently

right discipline is certainly a piece of

that resilience mental toughness you

know whatever language you want to throw

at it you have that Chad has that you

guys were weaned in that you were forged

in that then you do high-risisk high

consequence work right and on minimal

sleep etc etc And here are two guys

challenging each other to spend less

time on social media. Accomplish it by

virtue of competition. Okay, cool. And

then you say revert. What does that say?

Not about seals. [laughter] What does

that say about the platforms? Cuz I

mean, think about the rest of the world.

>> It says everything you need to know

about the platform. The fact that you

could, like you just said, you can

recognize all of those things. You can

both text each other back and forth and

you're limited phone usage for the day.

Man, this is awesome. and 60 days later,

you're back to the same behavior that

led you to the November or December

conversation.

>> That's all you need to know about the

platforms.

>> Okay, I I have to drill into this. This

is not where I thought we would

[laughter] we would go first, but but it

gets right to the heart of discipline

and self-control versus influence and

time and and time is everything. When

you are on a social media platform and

you're scrolling away, are you aware of

the time that's drifting away from you?

>> Yes.

>> Are you thinking why am I doing this but

I feel compelled to do it or are you

oblivious? Is it like being drunk where

you don't you you're not thinking about

the the the fact that you shouldn't be

doing it until you sober up.

>> I'm aware. I am aware that it's not

healthy and I will actually sometimes I

don't know if you're like this. I talk

to myself out loud. Somebody from the

outside would probably think I'm a

psychopath, but uh I will I will say to

myself, why why are you doing this? This

doesn't feel good. And just

>> for hours.

>> An hour. An hour. 45 minutes.

>> I can't go that far. I I would I would

feel as if I needed to take a shower if

I went that far. But if I have 15

minutes,

>> man, it's it's enticing.

>> And I don't know what it is about it. I

don't feel joyful after doing it. I try

not to compare myself to other people.

Good luck being on the internet and

doing that. I try not to get caught in

the uh the negativity aspect of it

because I can I recognize the negativity

bias in myself where you'll get 99 like

this is amazing and one guy is like you

kind of suck and you're just like you

mother [laughter and clears throat]

that's the only comment you pay

attention to.

>> It's the brain is is uh wired for to

identify those outliers.

>> So I refuse to be mean on social media.

I won't make negative comments. Um well

don't get me wrong you can insult people

by not being mean. just have to work

your way around it and takes a little

bit longer. But, uh, I know it's not

healthy. I know I could do

anything other than that time and be

more productive and maybe move my life

just a little bit in the direction I

want to, but I don't. I'd like to take a

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the episode description. I've got a

theory that I'm just going to share.

Please,

>> that I've been thinking about a lot

lately, having just spent some time

with, let's just say, one of the major

providers of online content. It's not a

social media platform. So, I have this

theory that unlike being drunk or doing

drugs of any kind, opioids or or or

amphetamines or something where people

exit the state of of intoxication and

and they realize like, oh my god, like

that was a huge waste of my time, my

life. I made these mistakes. etc. Being

on social media is different because

there's this awareness that we're on

there and we probably could or should be

doing something else often. And I have

this theory that it's the perfect

addiction

because

it's what I would call low resolution

enough that it doesn't occupy all of

your mind. Like when people are really

intoxicated, they're not thinking about

the fact that they shouldn't be

intoxicated. That's the state they're

trying to achieve. This is a state that

people come out of and report. There are

data on this. They go, "Yeah, it didn't

feel good being on there for the last 45

minutes or 30 minutes or I feel like I

wasted a lot of time." So, they're aware

of that even while they're doing it.

Very unusual for addictions, right? Most

addictions fall into the category of

trying to erase the sense of time, lose

themselves in the activity, forget the

trauma if you think it's trauma related,

just forget everything else and just be

in this moment. Gamblers will say this,

right? It's that zone they they crave so

much. This is different. Doesn't feel

really good. you're aware that you're

not supposed to be doing it quite like

that or that much. So, I actually think

it's it's the quote unquote ultimate

addiction because it's low resolution

enough that your brain circuits can get

attached to it and keep doing it while

you're monitoring yourself and yet you

can run these two tracks at the same

time so you're not getting absorbed and

coming out of it going, "Oh my god, I

didn't study for my final exam. Oh my

goodness, I didn't pick up the kids from

school." It's just low resolution enough

that you can still kind of tend to the

the kids, kind of be in a conversation,

sort of be on the Zoom, sort of like and

doesn't totally fall apart. Exactly. And

so in some ways, because it's not so

extreme, I think that's actually one of

the problems. The other problem is, of

course, our brains can, but are not

really designed to be split into these,

you know, two different activities for

for terribly long. It's not just an

inability to multitask. I actually think

that low resolution thing is you can

kind of do it while you're doing other

things. So I'm just this is something

that I actually want some laboratories

to look at.

>> Where does that lead if left unchecked?

>> Well, for you and for me, the

consequences are different and probably

less immediate because we've already

built our careers. There's the social

detriment, you know, relationships to

family and stuff that undoubtedly suffer

somewhat, right? But they're doing it

too, right? So there's that. I do worry

now I really sound like I'm in my 50s

like about the younger generation

because I don't know whether I would

have been able to escape this tunnel.

>> Yeah.

>> Had these devices been around. So I

think that otherwise incredible

accomplishments and human beings and

careers and families and everything in

between art and music is literally not

going to be made. I fear this much more

than I fear AI to be honest. I much much

more.

>> Yeah. in terms of taking away jobs and

taking away careers. I think that

because it's it's I'll tell you this, I

am confident that it is way way worse

than the than the quote unquote opioid

crisis which was already terrible.

>> I think we're going to be okay. So, I

have three data points which happen to

be my children. So, almost 18, almost

21, almost 23.

>> My middle son has got it dialed.

>> He's going to college in Bosezeman. I

think he's getting ready to start his

junior year in mechanical engineering.

He's doing an internship at a quantum

computing laboratory. I don't know what

that means. He tries to tell me. I'm

like, he just talked to my wife. It's

super cool stuff.

>> He made a robotic hand. Of course, the

first way he tested it was a middle

finger, which I deeply, deeply

appreciate.

>> He is your son

>> 100%. He exists on social media. Mhm.

>> He downloads the app once per week,

spends an hour on it, erases it because

it's the pendulum going the other

direction for him.

>> Mhm.

>> My oldest keeps it on his phone, but

uses it very sporadically and it's

almost at least so the middle one's

going to be 21. The other one's going to

be 23. My oldest now is almost at the

point and I think his peer group is

almost at the point a little bit of

mocking people who spend, you know what

I It's almost now it's almost almost on

the other side like oh you're one of

those even though they were raised with

electronic devices in their hand. My

daughter on the other hand surgically

connected to her hand and is constantly

consuming. So, I think she will get

there as well, too, because when I can

kind of pull her out of that digital

world or we go places that have less

than optimal cell coverage intentionally

and somehow the Wi-Fi doesn't show up

because dad unplugs the router like,

"Oh, there's no Wi-Fi at the house. That

sucks." She can see the light, but my

other two, as they've gotten a little

bit older, they have they have seen it

and found it on their own. And I I think

we're gonna be okay because I think that

generation now is really

viewing these platforms with a little

bit more of a wary eye.

>> And I don't know why, but my middle son

was the first one. He just was like,

"Nope, this is what I do. I'm on there

for an hour. It's 100% for memes for

him." And then he just deletes the

thing.

>> Great. No, I'm I'm I'm very reassured by

by what you just said.

>> That's a data point of three, though.

So, well, it's interesting because the

data on, for instance, um, smoking in

teens, like when we were growing up, a

lot of people smoked. Young people

smoked. You know,

>> that'd be your first act of rebellion.

>> There were all these campaigns to try

and get young people to quit smoking.

And they did not work. It's going to

give you lung cancers.

>> This is your lungs after smoke. None of

that worked. What worked was the ad

campaign that had these old white dudes

cackling and talking about all the money

they were going to make on these young

kids smoking. So, the rebellion of

youth, if you leverage it against the

big industry platforms, no one likes to

be manipulated, but when kids realize

and teens realize that they're being

manipulated, they'll push back in a way

that can be really good for them, which

is a little bit of what what we're

hearing here. So, so you know,

>> as a parent, I can tell you they push

back in ways super hard, maybe almost

pendalum the other way. I tell you what

they're also pushing back on in my all

three of their generation, alcohol

consumption.

Damn. Don't get me wrong, they there's a

time and place for everything. We go to

a yearly jiu-jitsu retreat in Costa

Rica. The drinking age is 18. One of my

sons is in college. Like I said, it's an

interesting watching those two. That

might be the only singular time they

drink in an entire year. That was the

opposite of me growing up and the the

culture of the first community I went

into. It is wild to see the push in the

other direction. And now I talk peptides

or my middle son. I told him I was

coming here. He's just like, "Oh, oh,

ask him what I need to be doing for

sleep optimization." Like, "Oh

[laughter] my god."

>> Happy to send it to him. That's his

generation.

>> Mhm.

>> I was not I think I started looking at

sleep optimization about last Thursday.

>> You know, it just wasn't the thing that

we were looking at. So, I actually, as

much as my children, I truly believe

children are just designed to sharpen

their teeth on the parents bones, I also

have a lot of faith on the next wave

coming through.

>> This is not a question I ever thought I

would ask on this podcast as somebody

who did an episode on alcohol that got

some reach and got people rethinking

whether or not they wanted to drink. And

I should just quickly say the major

response to that was one of three

different um types. One was, I don't

like drinking and now I can justify not

drinking. There were a lot of people who

felt that they had to drink and now they

had justification not to. Other people

who said, "Wow, I didn't realize that,

you know, it can increase breast cancer

risk. You know, we have cancers in our

family and that's a real thing." So, you

know, class one carcinogen, etc. And

then the third category, like, you know,

I wish you hadn't told me this

information. I really enjoyed drinking

and now my friends don't want to drink

with me. Fair and I don't tell people

what to do and I, you know, etc. But

I have to ask, do you think that your

kids and their generation are possibly

missing out by virtue of, you know, not

drinking at all?

>> That's a fantastic question. I mean, it

is a social lubricant

>> for a degree. I was probably and still

am antisocial in large crowds. Is there

an aspect of that where it legitimately

helped me not necessarily feel more

comfortable, but maybe get out of my own

way when I was younger? Yes. Did it lead

to some bad decisions along the way?

Yes. Did bad decisions and those

consequences shape the human being that

I would become along the way? Yes.

I don't know where it it where it lands.

I do think that there is a chance that

yes, they are missing out on maybe not

formative life experiences, but

important life experiences. Well, I

think the the camera phones are a big

concern with drinking now because people

are so worried about becoming uh less

inhibited and maybe not even saying or

doing the wrong thing, but even things

as trivial as like look, not everyone is

an awesome dancer. They can get filmed,

they can get posted, they can get

teased, there's social shame. The other

problem is that many many people are

awesome at certain things and those are

the things that tend to be high

amplitude also and so people feel like

they you know if they're going to be

seen online they have to be in some in

impressive form. So I don't really know.

I I do worry about the cannabis thing

because I'm not anti-cannabis, but I do

think given a couple drinks a week

versus smoking weed in terms of like the

the overall risk benefit, alcohol seems

less risky to me. But the the can

>> Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, there

are high high performers and people who

can use cannabis and that like not a

problem.

>> Young males in particular who have a

predisposition to psychosis or bipolar

disorder. Yeah. Some of them smoke high

potency weed or even low potency weed

and they never come back from the

psychotic episode. I know a lot of

examples of that and that's in the data

now. So alcohol, yeah, you can drive off

a cliff, you can run somebody over, you

can say or do something really really

stupid. But assuming those things don't

happen, the the immediate risks and

long-term consequences of like having

having a couple beers or a couple drinks

or maybe even a few more,

>> you get home safe, you don't say or do

anything stupid, like you're not going

to make yourself psychotic.

>> I'm kind of in the same boat that you

are. I'm not here to tell people how to

live their life. I do think that they

should pay attention to the risk versus

reward. you know, live your life how you

want. Your choices are going to have

potential consequences, and some of

those can be pretty big. There's some

things I deeply regret about my

expressions of being a human being when

I was drinking when I was younger. And

there are some things that I feel like

my life would be completely different

without that I would never want to give

those experiences back.

>> I don't know how you table that though.

>> This is a fascinating cover.

>> Didn't know we were going to go here.

>> Yeah. It's I mean I at my own life I

wouldn't give up those experiences

>> but I also don't feel comfortable saying

you have to drink to have them.

>> Mhm.

>> I don't know what the difference looks

like though. Maybe later on as you grow

into your I mean I'm a more confident

person now absent alcohol than I was a

more confident person younger absent

alcohol. So maybe time will help you get

to those places where you could take

those actions where you needed that

social lubricant. But maybe not. I don't

know man. Well, it's like sleep is super

important and I think it's great for

everyone, especially young people, to

understand just how great they can feel

and mentally and physically perform when

they're well rested. I think it's also

an important not just right of passage,

but experience to know just how terrible

you can feel after a night of no sleep

and still go take a midterm exam or go

for the run you were supposed to go for.

because it's quote unquote the best

thing for you, but just because how do

you explore the outer margins of your

capacity unless you know how feeling

really great feels and how let's just

say not lousy but how po like minimally

good you can feel and still complete

something while you're completely

crushed like I mean after a breakup

after two or three nights of poor sleep

in a very stressful time not having

eaten perfectly like it's good to

understand what a workout or what going

to class and forcing yourself to stay

awake or having a hard conversation with

your significant other feels like when

it's like the the last thing your body

wants you to do. I think there's utility

there. You know, it's kind of like the

ice bath of of mental experiences,

right?

>> Are you a fan of the ice bath?

>> I am. And

>> what temperature?

>> Cold. I So on Rogan, I said, you know,

low 50s. And he he like he was shocked

and dismayed. He looked he seemed it was

like an older brother or guy you respect

looking at you like oh man should we

even continue this podcast. I was like

you and I quickly went to yeah but I go

into the sauna at 220 degrees Fahrenheit

you know which I do. I'm very heat

tolerant not as cold tolerant. I like to

do cold shower cold plunge or whatever

like you know low 40s now.

>> All right. To me, there is nothing as

reliable and provided you don't like

jump into an ice hole or something

stupid like that or do you know

hyperventilation breathing and then jump

into cold water which has killed people.

Provided you don't do that. I I don't

know of anything that is both safe and

reliably can give you that adrenaline

spike

>> in a way that you can start to learn to

work with what it's like to be in a

highly adrenalized state. I think

there's just value in having your but

body flooded with adrenaline somewhat

against your will but you're controlling

some of it and learning. I think it's a

great space to explore, okay, do I

distract myself? Do I lean into it? Like

you can you can explore a lot of your

own consciousness in these high arousal

states. And I do think there's

carryover. And yes, there's a nice long

wave of dopamine that lasts many hours.

That's known. There's a nice long wave

of adrenaline.

>> But yeah, I think it's a great training

tool if you don't want to do it

immediately after resistance training

because it can uh it can reduce some of

the the the quote unquote gains you

would get because it it vasa constricts.

You want blood flow. You want to peruse

the muscles in order to, you know, get

get the strength and hypertrophy uh

benefits from the training. But provided

you do it before or on off days or 6

hours after you resistance train, I

think it's a really valuable tool.

>> What protocol would you use? I like to

have my cold plunge at about 80. What

would you do like 10 in, five out a

couple times?

>> 80° F.

>> It's great. I can bump it to 85 if you

think that that's a little too low. You

know, team guys have this advantage that

they did all that so they can be like,

"I did it. I don't want to do it."

Right? That's kind of like I went

through that.

>> That's an advantage.

>> You know, it's like the people who are

sleepd deprived in medical school.

They're like, "Yeah, I don't do that

anymore." I get it. Like you guys

suffered enough. When I went down to

Jacos, he he specifically had me um do a

heat cold protocol because I like to do

three rounds of each. You know, heat

somewhere about, you know, 210 215,

maybe as high as 220, which is hot, but

I'm pretty heat tolerant.

>> For how long?

>> That would be 20 minutes. and then go

into the you don't want to start right

off with that right and then go into the

cold. And so they packed the sauna, they

cranked that thing up and they kept

resetting the clock and literally he'll

tell you I was down on the floor where

it's you know not cool but it's still

colder heat rises obviously and his

daughters they were laughing his family

and then so everyone in there young and

old male and female was just laughing at

me. So, he has what he calls the factory

reset protocol, which is where you don't

know how hot or how long you're going to

be in there, and you don't know how cold

or how long you're going to be in there.

And we'll talk about this a little bit

about time, but I don't know if you

don't like the cold, you don't have to

do it, but I do think most people can

really benefit from it.

>> I'm saying I'll develop a protocol for

80. The sauna will be at 97. Easy

transition back and forth. Who knows?

>> All right. um taken from the guy who

jumps out of uh or off of mountains in a

in a squirrel suit. Let's talk about the

squirrel suit.

>> Sure.

>> And why in the world anyone who values

their life seriously though would do

this? And is there an off-ramp? Is there

a parachute? And uh when you learn how

to do this,

>> how hard is it to learn? And what's the

juice there?

>> Okay, a lot of questions there. Okay,

it's funny. A lot of people call them

squirrel suits. It's just a wing suit.

Squirrel is actually a manufacturer of

one of the suits. fantastic branding.

They happen to be the suit that I

jumped. So, essentially, it is

a human body turning into a nylon wing.

That's really all it is. It's nylon.

It's some neopre around the wrist. So,

you have a little bit of flexibility in

the wrist. They're really actually

advancing the leading edge technology

with the fabrics. Just I mean, it's

crazy to look I don't know the name of

the program, but you're looking at all

of these images from the side of wind

angles and how the suits they're looking

to reduce drag. Um, and it's more than

just the rigidity of your body. So, at

least the suits that I jumped are modern

suits. They are ram air inflated. So,

there is an outer layer on both sides,

an upper layer, let's say, for the your

back, and an under layer for your belly.

In between, it's much like a canopy.

There's ribbed fabric with port holes.

And on the front and back of the wing,

as you give it air speed, either exiting

an airplane that's already in flight,

it's most skydiving airplanes are

probably doing 80 to 120 miles an hour

or in the base jumping world, and this

is where it can get spicy, is you have

no air flow for about the first 4

seconds because

>> base jumping, for those that don't know,

is

>> fixed, call it a fixed object. Building

antenna span or earth is what the

acronym stands for.

>> You're probably not going to do it off

of buildings because it's it you need

time to get the suit actually flying.

But it's a different experience because

if you jump out of an airplane, those

ram air inlets fill up. Your suit is

it's pressurized. You can feel it and

you can already fly your suit. You can

flip over. You can actually I've gotten

above aircraft many time. You can

basically translate that horizontal lift

into power and go above them shortly.

You're going to come back down. Um

otherwise you'll stall the suit and it

starts waffling down. But in the base

jumping world, it's a zero airspeed

exit. So for the first about 0 to 4

seconds, you don't have any air filling

up the ram air inlets. So if you don't

go off in the right body position or if

you go head low and are scorpioning or

head high and then you pitch through

that and there is terrain below you,

that's how a lot of people die. But the

suit itself is is basically that. It's

uh there's wings. There's a large wing

between your leg, a wing underneath your

arm on both the left and right hand

side. And they come in a variety of

sizes. So learning it is

>> [gasps]

>> It's simple, not easy. First off,

skydive before you throw a wings suit on

in the skydiving world. I think I had

3,000 jumps before I put a wing suit on

the first time.

>> Is it important that people do different

types of skydiving? By the way, I'm not

versed in skydiving. So, what's the most

basic type of I I assume a tandem jump,

then you start doing individual jumps?

>> Some people go like I went right to the

first time I did a skydive, I had an

instructor holding on to me from for

both sides until my parachute deployed.

It's a very structured program that most

modern drop zones will have. A lot of

people will do a tandem first, which I

recommend. If you're un if you've never

done it and you're uncertain about

whether or not you would like it, I I

think there's two really good options.

One is a tandem, but if even that idea

makes you a little bit uncertain,

there's now enough wind tunnels around,

commercial wind tunnels. There's down

there's Oceanside wind tunnel. There's

one in LA. There's one in San Diego.

They're all over the place. I was just

in Virginia Beach. There's one in

Virginia Beach. So, it simulates the

sensation of falling through the air in

an environment where you don't have to

wear a parachute. You don't have to ride

an airplane. You literally hop in there.

They can hold on to you and it feels

like skydiving.

>> Sounds like fun.

>> It's leveled up what people can do in

the air cuz it's this contained

environment where you can see if you're

moving a millimeter. The number of jumps

I have had where you get out, you jump

out into the air where your only

reference is another person that's

moving around and you get you were

sliding all over the place. [ __ ] you.

You were sliding all over the place.

Neither of you know cuz your reference

is the earth just flying around and then

you get into win tunnel and you're both

up against the glass. You're like we

both suck. So makes it a little bit more

difficult. The most basic type of

skydiving would be just exiting the

plane in flighting with your belly to

the oriented towards the ground and

deploying your parachute on time.

Skydiving is two parachutes, main

parachute and reserve. Reserve is packed

by an FAA rigger and I believe it's for

one period of time it was 90 days in

between pack jobs. I think it's 6 months

in between pack jobs down but full. They

open it up, the reserve, they open the

parachute up, they inspect it, they make

sure that the canopy is good, the lines

are good, um the automatic activation

devices, which are computers sensing uh

fall rate, barometric pressure with a

firing criteria, which will fire your

reserve for you if you do nothing, which

has hundreds of documented saves, by the

way,

>> um for an unconscious jumper, whatever

it may be, or somebody, as crazy as it

is to say, somebody falling through the

air, forgetting to look at their

altimeter. because they're having so

much fun.

It happens. So, cypresses or vigils or

just AADs, automatic activation devices

have saved hundreds of lives. So, that

reserve parachute is packed by a rigger.

Most civilian jumpers will pack their

own main parachute. It takes 5 minutes

for an experienced jumper, maybe 20

minutes for somebody who is learning.

And you can go do

I think the most jumps I've ever done in

a day was probably 30. That was at a at

a an event called a boogie where it's

just as fast as you can go and you're

just jumping jumping jumping. An average

day for me when I lived in San Diego

would be six to eight jumps. I'd like to

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subscription. For somebody's first

non-tandem jump, how high is the plane

off the ground?

>> 13,000 is about average. 13 AGL. So, if

you're learning in Colorado or another

Rocky Mountain state, you might only get

12 AGL because you might be up to 16 to

18,000 ft. Mhm.

>> But there's [clears throat] flying with

your belly oriented to the earth.

There's people who like to do it

vertically, either feet down or head

down. People who fly on their back.

There are formation jumps where they'll

get a bunch of people together. I think

the world record is hundreds of people

linked up in freef fall. You can watch

it from the ground. It's crazy to see.

They'll have eight aircraft and you just

see these just people bombing out of the

back

>> and they'll make these snowflake

configurations and people just sitting

there on the ground watching either

naked eye or with uh

>> with binoculars. And then at breakoff

altitude, everybody's tracking away and

then all these canopies open up and then

on landing it gets a little bit wild. So

it can get as much as you want. And then

um wing suiting is just a part of that.

But you can jump a a smaller wing suit.

So if the suits I ended up jumping had a

lot of fabric because I wanted to have a

nice glide ratio and I wanted to be able

to extend the amount of time in the air.

You can get suits with a smaller wing

which give you more maneuverability and

you learn in those and then get a little

bit bigger, a little bit bigger and

bigger, bigger. So, as safely as

possible, graduating your way towards

those larger suits that can have more

consequence. Uh you can end up on your

back in the wing suits and flat spins.

And I've seen people they you can get

out of it. You need to get out of it

quickly, but we're talking fully blown

uh red eyes when they get to the ground

from centrifugal force. and pretty

quick, too. That's the skydiving world.

Two parachutes. The base jumping world

is you're now down to one parachute that

is packed very similar to a reserve, but

it's packed now by the jumper who is

doing the base jumping. And the reason

for that is you are generally very close

to the ground at an altitude where a

reserve isn't going to save you because

it does take a couple hundred feet for a

reserve to open up. And um in the US

there's one place to legally do it 24/7

365. It's the Pine Bridge up in Twin

Falls, which is where I learned it's,

you know, the legality aspect is if

people pursue to go that they want to go

that way, um, do your research because

there's some cities that had some

problems with it. So, they made it a

felony, which will change your life if

you want to test gravity off of a

building. I don't know if the capital F

is necessarily worth it. Vegas and New

York are two good examples of that. Um,

most people start off with that bridge.

Uh, and then an antenna is, of course,

exactly that. radio antennas and there

are other countries in the world where

that is legal to do and a lot of times

people will travel [gasps]

uh buildings you can get permission uh

depending um I know one of your guys

worked with Red Bull not for Red Bull he

clarified for us shockingly enough if

you write a large check things that were

once illegal

>> can become legal for short periods of

time so they will get permission to go

off of buildings

>> or you can go to Dubai where for I think

it was a year they had this huge just it

was fully just set up for legal base

jumping off one of the top floors of one

of those skyscrapers, which is

unbelievable. And then Earth, which is

obviously that and cliffs. Um, my first

uh base jump off of a uh actually was

from the bridge. I have I should I have

done an antenna buildings not many

building not many buildings but my first

jump uh off the earth was Monte Brento

in Italy which you jump open your canopy

land walk across the street and there's

an Italian espresso just waiting for you

perfect it's basically heaven and then

we stayed there for two and a half weeks

and went into Lauder Brunin in

Switzerland

but I had been skydiving and flying a

wings suit then I had to learn how base

jump and then at some point you have to

combine those two. So one day you have

to go from never having pushed off of a

cliff in a wings suit and having time

flying it in the air to kind of bridging

that gap where now you have this first 4

seconds that you have to deal with where

the the suit feels really sloppy. It

doesn't feel rigid and you can't really

do anything until it powers up and you

can pull away. So that's kind of the

activities. The why I can't answer for

anybody other than myself, but the why

for me actually had nothing to do with

the activity itself. And it is

dangerous. There are some people who try

to romanticize the danger of that. And

if people want to part participate in

things because they're dangerous and

that's how they want to define

themselves. I leave that to you. Um

just, you know, be aware of the

potential consequences you might get

yourself into. For me, I got into that

about three years after I got out of the

Navy, and I didn't realize what it was I

enjoyed so much, but it was the mental

reset associated with that. Um, at about

1 minute out on a helicopter, for me,

and I can only speak for me, your

entire, you know, we talking about time,

your entire circle of

concern goes away, completely gone. And

there are very few times in my life

where I've ever been able to get into

that headsp space. But it might be the

most powerful headsp space I've ever

been able to arrive into. And my ability

to find my way there lasted for months

afterwards

>> because overseas,

yeah, they ask you to do some some

bizarre stuff, but you also likely at

some point in in your career

[clears throat] will have a family,

maybe your first house, whatever it is,

and like [ __ ] the washing machine

just broke. And you're dealing with real

life stuff. Did I Did I write enough

checks before I left the before the

digital age? Did I write enough checks

before I left to make sure that the rent

was already paid? Now, these are the

things you're thinking about just normal

everyday life, an argument with your

spouse, your kids, the holidays you may

have missed, all that stuff. You get on

a helicopter and you start heading

towards an objective and all that stuff

starts to go away. And in about for me

about the one minute and in until it e

lands or you're stepping off it becomes

this focus on the next 3 seconds of your

life is the only thing I was capable of

thinking about and that is such a

beautiful place. God you want to talk

about the ability

to perform

and not feel like you're necessarily

you're not trying to force it. you're

just there's books been written about

the flow state for lack of a better

term. Incredibly impactful and I didn't

realize how much I needed that and I

didn't realize how much that job was

providing for me until it was gone. And

then the static of everyday life just is

overwhelming. Skydiving,

I guess you could get that or maybe I

got that when I first started, but after

a few thousand jumps,

about everything that's going going to

go wrong, you're going to have your

first cutaway. you're going to have a

mount, you know, I mean, you're going to

deal with your gear, your reserve is

going to open. And so that that really

narrowed focus, it actually starts

opening back up.

The base jumping world, I remember the

first time I was the guy who taught me,

he's like, "All right, you just climb

over the edge of the rail here and

you're looking at 486 ft. You test the

wind by spitting and if you can if it

drifts past a certain point, you're good

to go. [laughter] So you can track your

spit to where you are going to deck if

you don't pull your parachute. Now on

the first one, he's holding on to the

pilot shoot so it rips it off for you so

you don't have to worry about it.

[snorts] But you want to talk about that

right back into that space. Holy cow.

That's what base jumping was for me. I

had some of the the deepest

conversations with my friends on the

4-hour hikes that would lead to a

90-second jump. and two weeks of those

90-cond jumps, I could get myself into

such a more dialed headsp space for 6

months and be better at business,

better, you know, a more patient father,

a more patient husband. That's that to

me is why

>> and at some point

it probably due to the death of my

friends and I had found other activities

that had started to provide that it

crossed the metric for me where the risk

was no longer worth worth the reward. I

I have been skydiving since 1999. I

could take 5 years off and go jump out

of an airplane and I'd be fine. But I

can't do that in the base jumping world.

The currency and competency piece is so

important. And then when I moved to

Montana, my access to the drop zones and

the ability to maintain currency and

competency in that wings suit really

decreased.

So it got to a place where it just it

wasn't worth the risk. Skydiving is

still a bunch of fun, but I found other

activities that I could kind of lose

myself in. Maybe not to the same I don't

think to the same degree. I I

it's hard to describe zipping up in that

suit with a maximal heart rate to the

point where you're looking over your

buddies like, "Hey, can are you hearing

my heart too?" Cuz it's pretty loud.

It's about the you know what I mean like

that thrush in your ears. That's

informative uh [laughter] to hear that

your heart was maxed out because I

wondered if you you know if adrenaline

was low, if it was higher, you know,

something had had happened

systematically over the years in the

teams where your adrenaline was set too

low, you need to crank it above a

certain threshold. Sounds like you were

right where any rational person would

be, which was terrifying

>> because at some point you grab your

little tail wing and you make a little

nice little teepee with it and you get

your toes to the edge and you check all

your stuff and then you are just looking

out into the abyss and you have to make

yourself rock forward past a point of no

return that if you change your mind,

whoopsies, that doesn't work anymore.

And then you need to have maximal human

performance for about the next 4 seconds

of your life

>> if you want your life to continue.

So if you're not scared in that

environment, I would recommend you stop

that activity immediately because you're

not paying attention. It was terrifying

and that's probably why I liked it so

much. It was awesome. Don't get me

wrong.

>> Ripping down a mountain in Switzerland 6

feet off the ground almost playing tag

with your shadow and then turning around

and like carving through trees. Amazing.

So, you're actually pretty low to the

ground, just going very very fast over

steep ground.

>> Yes, if you want to be. Not everybody

chooses to fly that way. And you can you

can have on the exact same jump. I can

think of one very spe uh specifically.

It's at the far end of the valley in

Switzerland. It's a 4-hour hike up. And

it's I mean, you're getting water in

your in your, you know, canteen or

algaene out of like these glacially just

spouting out of the rocks and there's

sheep and stuff and, you know, it's like

a postcard. You walk for 4 hours. You

can have a really aggressive jump on

that and fly for 60 seconds or you could

flatten your suit out and just glide and

glide for two and a half minutes. Same

jump, different choices. Not that, you

know, necessarily flying farther out.

You still need to pack your parachute

correctly and all those things, but your

likelihood of impacting a tree at 100

miles an hour with your face is a lot

better than flying six feet off the

ground around corners that hopefully

you've done some test jumps on and

gotten lower and lower and lower and

lower instead of just flash pointing

that thing and hoping for the best as

you come around the corner, which people

do.

>> How fast are you moving once you're

above the ground?

>> If you really bend those suits over, I'd

say you could get them to about 120

face first. You're a human missile. It's

awesome. [laughter]

>> I can, you know, we can the those of us

like myself listening to this can only

wonder, right?

>> You can [clears throat] feel it in the

suit. So, again, the Ram Air inlets

>> when you're a little bit flatter flying

slow, you just it feels like you're on

an air mattress is really what flying

them feels like.

>> As you bend the suit over and you're

just violently diving at the ground, you

can feel the suit. It's almost like it's

it just your power meter is just all the

way up. And so if you get in trouble,

you can flatten that out. And that's how

that's your safety. You can disconnect

from the terrain, which is how

unfortunately some people die. They're

not paying attention to that sensation

and they're slowly getting flatter and

flatter and flatter and flatter. Then

they encounter flat terrain and they

don't have enough performance in the

suit to clear it and they impact. But

that when you're pitched over like that

and that thing is just and you it feels

like you are licking the largest 9bolt

battery you've ever licked in your life.

[laughter]

>> Would your uh would your parents say

that this this is a window into the

young Andy Stump or or is this a

departure or an an evolution? Devolution

evolution.

>> I don't know if they would have called

that one. I don't think

I I don't know if I would have called

that activity if I would have said this

one was going to be interesting to me.

>> Let me ask you this. When you were a

kid, I'm not recommending anyone do

this, but when you were a kid and your

and your guy [snorts] friends uh someone

found one of the larger firecrackers

available, were you the kid that would

hold it after it was lit until the last

second and then throw it? Cuz I knew

that kid, but it wasn't me.

>> Does he still have both hands?

>> Uh yes. But the he was a great

skateboarder by the way between pro

skateboarder right out of high school.

>> Um moved on to other things eventually.

I think those things were correlated

right. I he big railings like he had a

very very good relationship with

confronting fear. There was another kid

in our crew who would have been around

the corner the moment the thing came

out. Okay. I was neither of those kids.

Yeah. Right.

>> And then there's a distribution in the

middle.

>> Yeah.

>> Where were you?

>> My answer is not going to make sense to

you because holding it that long sounds

dangerous. [laughter]

It is dangerous, but wings suit.

>> I know. That's what I'm saying. It's not

going to make sense. That sounds

dangerous,

>> but just for the sake of danger, which

somebody could 100% say about base

jumping as well,

>> but I don't know if holding on to say an

M80 and wondering, you know, how long

you can provides for you that mental I

mean, I'm talking about your canopy

opens, you land, you're laying in a

[ __ ] meadow in Switzerland on your

back like at a sense of ease and peace.

>> I don't think you're getting that from

an M80. Yeah, the reason I ask is that,

you know, there are a lot of questions

that the scientist in me wants to know

about, you know, resetting of adrenaline

set points and, you know, and because

people can become desensitized to to um

high-risisk, high consequence type

situations.

>> You see that in the wing suiting

community, I would say specifically the

wings suit based jumping community,

>> the fatality rate is high.

>> I would never tell anybody that it is a

safe activity, but I think you can do it

as safely as possible. There's still

immense residual risk, so you have to

ask yourself, what is it worth? If we

were to plot out um number of wings suit

jumps

>> and

plot fatality time of fatality relative

to first jump, right? So, so that the

question like the area under the curve.

So, are you getting to address what you

just said,

>> are you getting more deaths the longer

people have been doing it independent of

the number of jumps, right? You can't

really do that experiment. It's it's not

a perfect experiment. The the question

is, are people getting more dangerous to

themselves because they need they're

pushing further and further into the

abyss, getting closer to the edge, uh,

taking risks, or is the novice more

dangerous because they're a novice?

>> I think the Dunning Krueger effect is

always

>> the most dangerous aspect of it. I think

it would probably track, you certainly

see people, especially in the

content age, I've seen people reach out,

not to me, but to forums, hey, I just

want to get into wings suit base jumping

as fast as possible. And everybody on

there is like, whoa,

>> no, you need to go I mean, most people

will recommend skydiving 200 jumps to

even before you put a wings suit on,

which for most people who aren't doing

it professionally, that's going to take

a year or two. It's a slow progression.

But that person reaching out saying that

doesn't have time for that. So you're

definitely going to get some people

early on. The guys who are around the

longest, the ones that I know who are

kind of the titans in the sport. It's

not that I don't worry about them. I

worry less. I think it's maybe more. I

honestly I think it's that Dunning

Krueger curve where it's going to get

people. Especially when let's say you do

this amazing job, right? you ripping

around a corner and things you learn

later on like, hey, is it ascending or

descending thermals right now? Where's

the wind coming from? What type of day

is this? Is the slope I'm just jumped

off. Maybe it was a

westernfacing slope that I jumped

towards and I felt this amazing upbrush

of air, which is what you want to feel

on an exit point. Same thing as why

airplanes take off into the wind. It

helps with performance. Well, as I am

cruising down this mountain, am I

thinking about the fact that

threequarters of it is covered in the

shade and maybe the thermals have

swished along the way and you're going

to start feeling this pressure of almost

a hand on your back? You, you know, you

do it the first time you do that jump

and you survive. The dangerous thing to

say is nailed it. But did you nail it or

did you get away with it?

>> And that's what kills people. And that's

that perfect Dunning Krueger ascending

line.

>> And there's a a quote that should be

stamped into everyone's brain, young and

old. Did Did you nail it or did you get

away with it? Because it translates to a

lot of areas of life that could spare

people a lot of pain and some important

insights.

>> I got away with it more than I nailed

it.

>> I'm I am

>> Are you just being humble?

>> No.

>> Okay. No, you don't know what you don't

know until

you see somebody else get bit by the

same thing or you're on a jump with

somebody and only one of the three makes

it out or two of the three makes it out

and they all had the same idea and plan

>> and you describe some of that in your

book. I don't want to give that story

away but

>> with Alex specifically. I wasn't there

for Alex's jump but I had jumped with

Alex enough for years.

The the one thing I wish I could do

looking back with him is I was there

with him for some close calls that he

had. A few were bad decisions that he I

would like to think corrected for

because there there is a phase in

anything that you're doing that my uh

instructor taught me how to fly

helicopters. He's like, "Listen, once

you know better, you can do better. But

there's a phase where you don't know any

better. And so you think what you're

doing is correct until either somebody

points it out or you watch something so

horrific happen and you pay attention to

an investigation afterwards or a debrief

afterwards and you can learn from that.

But with uh with Alex, I I wish I could

go back and just honestly slap him

around a little bit because that's what

it would take for him to pay attention.

He would be appreciative of it, I think,

if he understood what it would save. But

I I would associate his death directly

also with that Dunn and Krueger curve.

And he had been doing it for years. That

doesn't mean you're out of that. It's

that middle area where you think you

have everything dialed. I think he had

gotten away with it more than he had

nailed it. And I and I had to. Would you

let your kids squirrel suit? Do I have

the right to stop them?

>> Yes.

>> No.

knowing the risk. I mean, I would do

everything I could to prepare them as

much as possible and and by that I mean

scare the absolute dog [ __ ] out of them

with the reality and confront them with

the actual reality of it. Show them how

long it would actually take,

what they would need to do, what they

would need to sacrifice in order to be

able to get at that level. But then if

they

wanted to make that choice,

I don't feel like I have the right to

stand in between them and that desire.

>> Appreciate the honest answer. I'm sure

I'm sure they do, too. I don't know if

your wife appreciates that particular

answer, but we'll ask her. I don't get

involved in marital disputes. That's a

That's a

>> We don't have any. Our relationship is

perfect. [laughter]

>> Excellent. Excellent answer. Wait,

you've been married before. No, that was

that was a joke.

>> That is correct. I tell you what, I

learned some stuff. I learned some

stuff.

>> You talk very openly in in the book. I

mean, to the extent you don't reveal

specifics, but about the the challenges

of of uh of that the ending of that

first marriage,

>> hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

People think that being a seal is hard,

and it is. Um, but a lot of that is

truncated with, hey, we're going to go

overseas for this short period of time

and time away, and it can be

physiologically and psychologically

challenging. But once you're in that

community, I didn't encounter anything.

The military never asked me to do

anything that that got me to a place

where I was judging or asking myself

what type of person I was or if I was a

good enough person to be able to

continue going forward with anybody

other than just myself. Like those

questions I wasn't asking myself in the

military at the lowest points of a

nearly 2-year divorce process. That was

very contentious. And quite frankly, the

reason I I don't go into details is I

have built a larger or a platform and my

ex-wife doesn't have one. And that's the

fairest way to be about it.

>> I totally respect that.

>> If people want to go talk with her,

trust me, I know the story you're going

to get. Enjoy it. Believe what you want

to believe. I always tell people if you

hear bad stuff about me, please believe

it.

>> That's what you tell them.

>> Yeah. I mean, why not? It it I am

certainly not everybody's cup of tea.

There's no way to please everybody ever.

Amen to that.

>> So if somebody is out there who wants to

run me through the mud, cool. Just

believe every word that you are told if

you want to. But if you want to get the

real spit, come hang out with me for a

bit and maybe compare and contrast those

two things. But if you don't want to do

that, cool.

>> Yeah,

>> that's on you. It took every tool that I

wrote about in that book to get through

that circle of influence, circle of

concern, all the things that I was

worried about. What can I do today?

Breaking time down into the shortest

chunks humanly possible. controlling how

I talk to myself. It was absolutely

soulc crushing

and

10 out of 10. Do not recommend.

>> Yeah, zero stars on Trip Adviser.

>> Yeah, that portion of the book um

stopped me, I have to say. And and I uh

there were other parts of the book that

that paused me where I was like, whoa, I

didn't expect this coming. And you know,

I take notes on what I listen to. I also

read the hard copy. I should have

mentioned that earlier. I like to do

both. It's really helpful for me. Uh I

think maybe other people would benefit

from that as well. But that segment

where you said this is the hardest thing

I'd ever been through and it was as you

put it again soul crushing. And what I

gathered was and I certainly can say

I've experienced this before in a

different context that when

>> other people's narratives start to the

boundaries between other people's