It feels like we have a new era or we're

in a new era of financial markets where

the government is literally taking

equity stakes from private companies.

What do you make of this kind of state

capitalism, Kai?

It's state capitalism. I don't

understand how the party of free markets

and smaller government suddenly became

under Donald Trump the party of state

capitalism. And we all know that had

Biden or Obama done it, Washington would

have exploded. it would have just been

he would have been impeached like like

three days ago. I'm not sure it's a

healthy thing for the general economy.

Um and I know it's not a healthy thing

for the government of the United States

to be so heavily vested in state

capitalism.

Ky, where does this podcast find you?

I am in uh St. Paul, Minnesota,

corporate headquarters uh of the company

that owns Marketplace American Public

Media. All right. Well, listen, we very

much appreciate you here uh being here

and we have a bunch to get to. So, let's

start off with the government shutdown.

Um we're in the midst of a shutdown,

which means we're kind of flying blind

in terms of economic data. Can you paint

us a picture of what you're worried

about or paying attention to uh right

now?

Yeah, I'm worried about two things. Uh

three things. Uh the first thing I'm

worried about is uh obviously and most

importantly the data, right? we're not

getting the government data that's

helping the Federal Reserve figure out

which way this economy is going to go.

Uh and this is an interesting and a

critical moment for the Fed, right? I

mean, the New York Fed came out this

morning in its monthly survey and said

consumer expectations for inflation are

actually going up. And as we know, uh

inflation expectations can actually

drive what inflation does. So the idea

that consumers think inflation a year

out is going to be 3 and a half% or

better is really challenging. So this is

a perilous moment for the Fed just data

wise setting aside the politics of it

and we can get we can get into that if

you want to. So that's that's the first

thing I'm worried about. Second thing

I'm worried about now with this shutdown

um of course federal workers but federal

workers who are on the lower end of the

end cut spectrum right because they're

the ones who've been getting whacked

low-income consumers have been getting

whacked by the tariff passroughs that

have happened already. Um they're the

ones who are in the foulest mood.

They're the ones who have the least

disposable income. uh and they're the

ones, you know, let's call it the bottom

like 60% of the income spectrum um whose

spending is falling off, right? And

those uh in the top end are, you know,

inflation's a pain in the ass for

everybody, but most of us can bear it if

you're in the top end. If you're not,

that's a real real challenge. Uh and

then finally and and most importantly I

think on a on a macro scale is what it

says about the in just complete

inability of the government of the

United States to run itself and to

manage what is for now the most

important economy in the world. And it's

I mean it's just it's beyond parody.

What I find potentially more fragile is

that that data where the top 10% are now

responsible for half of consumer

spending.

And if there's a bit of a shock or a

slowdown or AI begins to unwind and the

10 companies driving 70% of the earnings

gains, if there's a little just a I

don't even call it a chill, but it goes

from 74 and breezy and sunny to 72 for

the top 10%. They can easily take their

spending down 10, 20, 30%. Whereas the

bottom 90, you know, they can't cut

their spending that much because they're

kind of spending money on essentials. Do

you worry? I worry that we're

increasingly fragile because a small

number of people are essentially holding

propping up the economy right now. Your

thoughts?

Yeah, look, that's actually been the way

for a long time now. Consumers overall,

as anybody who listens to marketplace

and probably listens to you knows

consumers spending by or on behalf of

consumers drives 70% of everything that

happens in this economy. And you're

right that that spending now is being

concentrated in the top part because the

lower half has to buy food, has to make

its car payments, has to do all of those

things. And when it's that concentrated

and we are on this cusp of tariff

impacts now finally starting to leak

through and consumers saying, I don't

know, then where does that leave us? You

know, it's I I think this is a more

perilous moment than than a lot of

forecasters are guessing. What are the

data blind spots that matter mo most for

the Fed or investors or for the average

person where you know we're we're flying

without instruments right now. What do

you think is the most valuable data that

we're not seeing?

Yeah. Look, I I think uh always it's the

jobs data and then for the Fed

secondarily PCE right personal

consumption expenditures and what

inflation is. And look, there are a

thousand PhD economists who work for the

Fed and they've got all kinds of private

data. But the catch is twofold. One is

private data is proprietary and not

everybody's willing to share it. But

number two, a lot of times that private

data is based on the public data that

the government puts out. And so when we

don't have that foundational information

of what's happening, then that renders

the Fed,

okay, soft landing, we had that whole

thing, you know, a number of months ago,

a year ago, whatever. The Fed's finally

going to do it. Let's complete the

analogy here, right? The the Fed had

this economy on final. Tariffs came in

and then the weather went to

right? Right. And when the weather goes

to hell and your instruments aren't

reliable, which is where the Fed is

right now, what can you do? And and my

guess would be, and I don't know, I

haven't spoken to Chair Pal in a very

long time. I've had, you know, Fed

presidents on the program from time to

time. My guess is that they're kind of

hanging on by their fingernails.

You're I think loosely my generation.

And when I talk to you,

I think we're like the same age

actually.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we are. Um let's

just say we're 50, Kai. Um let's say

that.

Let's say that. So a word that I find

people under the age of 50 are not

familiar with and that I think is we may

be on the the precipice of is

stagflation. So I see inflation

uh going up. Core inflation I think hit

3 and a half hit or 37. And meanwhile it

looks as if the jobs market is shaky.

And so this this chocolate or this not

chocolate and peanut butter which is a

good thing but this nitro and glycerin

which is a bad thing of low growth and

inflation stagflation

which is just the worst of all worlds.

Do you share my fears around that? I I

agree with you, but the most recent

indicators for GDP growth are like 3%

plus. The Atlanta Fed does this GDP now

tracker which has it like at 3.8% for

the current quarter, which is really

high. Now, is that sustainable? I'm not

sure, but we're not in stagflation yet.

A lot of the indicators are happening.

Inflation, as you said, the labor market

being really jittery, right? We're in

this low hiring, lowfiring labor market

environment, right? There's not a lot of

churn. Not a lot of people are getting

laid off, but not a lot of people are

getting hired either, which makes it

tougher to find a job now. So, we've got

two out of three, and I think the the

real question is what happens with

economic growth uh in this quarter and

then first quarter of of next year and

where that winds up sticking.

Do you worry, and I'm asked this, I

really don't know the answer to this

question. Is that 3.8 a number juice

because imports are are taken out of GDP

growth and because imports have

dramatically decreased that number is

somewhat artificially inflated if you

will.

Yeah, I think that GDP number is

actually challengeable because if that's

even a word challengeable because of

that exact formulation, right? C plus I

plus G plus net exports, right? And the

and the problem is the tariffs have

pulled all those imports forward now and

the numbers are not skewed, but they're

a little bit what's going on, you know?

Yeah. Let's talk about tariffs and

trade. There's been talk of a potential

bailout for American soybean farmers

who've been completely thrown under the

bus by Trump's tariffs. Um, Hill

Republicans estimate Trump could need to

send as much as 50 billion to farmers

hit by his own tariffs. roughly half the

revenue raised from those tariffs so

far. Can you walk us through the

economics here and what's actually

happening to farmers?

Yeah, they're they've actually gotten

shafted. That's the economics of it.

Look, I we've got a soybean farmer out

in Iowa that we talked to uh not

infrequently and I had her on about two

weeks ago. Uh she has zero orders. She

she's fine sort of cornwise, right?

Because there's lots of other uses. But

the American soybean farmers have had

zero Chinese orders. It used to be the

biggest market, right? And now because

of the president's trade war, the

Chinese are not buying American soybeans

anymore. They're going to Brazil and

other places. So all these soybean

farmers now are looking at a market

catastrophe truly because their largest

market has disappeared because of the

president's policies. So here's what's

happening. We're we have now a heavily

tariffed environment. Let's all remember

that tariffs are taxes on American

consumers and businesses. It's not China

that's paying the tariffs. It's not

Canada that's paying the tariffs.

American consumers and businesses are

paying the tariffs. It is a tax. So all

that money is going into the Treasury

without congressional authorization. By

the way, it is taxation almost literally

without representation. So that money is

now in the Treasury. The president is

going to and in ordinary times of which

we are not in, the president would need

congressional authorization to get these

bailouts to the farmers. The president's

going to take some of that tariff money

and redirect it to farmers so that we

don't have that American farming

catastrophe. It is a crisis completely

induced by the president. The pain being

borne by American farmers who are now

being subsidized by the taxes that are

the president's tariffs. It's it's the

most bizarre circular logic you're ever

going to find.

And my sense is I mean this is sort of

starting a fire and then charging

taxpayers for the cost to put it out,

right? It it's just a circular doesn't

make any sense. Do these did these

farmers ever have viable businesses? Was

I mean have we not been propping up

these farmers? And also on the back end,

my sense is this business is not coming

back. Even if we were to restore or do

away with the tariffs, China has

established secure supply routes or

sourcing from Argentina and Brazil as

you referenced that this the bottom line

is the American soybean farmer is is

going to be a thing of the past.

Yeah. So look, American farm policy for

the past 80 years is a conversation for

a whole different podcast and I'm not

well versed enough. But I can tell you

those markets are, as you say, never

ever coming back and and my corn and

soybean farmer in Iowa knows it. I

talked to a corn farmer in South Dakota.

He knows it. So now they're they're

looking for these markets. I mean, you

know, April Ems is a woman I've been

talking to for for honest to God, it's

been 10 years. She's been on this land

since she was a little girl. And now

what's she going to do with it? You

know, and American farming is is

challenging in the very best of times,

right? It's it's brutal and it's hard

and it's you are at the mercy of so many

elements. And now they're at the mercy

of the president of the United States.

Trump announced new tariffs on movies,

furniture, and other imported goods. How

far do you think he has to go before he

totally alienates his base here?

So, you forgot trucks, by the way. He

came out like yesterday, medium heavy

trucks now, 25%. Um, this is the

question I've been asking almost since

the beginning and and it's twofold. One

is what's it going to take to make

people realize what is happening, right?

And and the correlary of that is for our

leaders and for our elites in academia,

law, business, take your pick. How long

will it take them to realize they are on

the wrong side of history? Um because

this

look, we're we're less than a year in um

and one imagines that it will end

because it has to. The question is

what's the forcing function? What's it

going to take for people to understand

what is happening here? And this is a

much larger conversation than just the

economy, right? But I I bring it up

because the institutions of this

economy, all of them depend on the

institutions of this democracy. Rule of

law, transparency, fair regulation, the

right of recourse when wronged, all of

those things. And if people don't

understand that that's what's under

threat,

how do they expect the economy to

survive? Right? There was there was a

statistic out this morning. foreignborn

students are it's just cratered this

fall because of the president's

immigration policies and for uh his

conversations and and well conversations

is putting it very m charitably what

he's doing to higher education you know

immigrants to this country look

immigration is a labor market problem

but it's also a source of innovation and

dynamism and intellectual vigor that we

are now not getting because the

institutions of this democracy are under

fire.

And

I don't know about you, I've actually

been struck at how

resilient the economy has been. I would

have thought if someone had laid out

these policies, I would have said, "Wow,

that recession here we come." And it

appears that I must think of that

analogy that, you know, twothirds of an

of a of a iceberg's mass is below the

water. And it what I I mean one of two

things is happening. Either we're wrong

about the president's policies and

they're not you know there's some merit

to them or two the reality is that the

American economy is this juggernaut that

quite frankly it's like don't bother me

I'm just going to continue to grind on.

And have you been surprised at how

resilient the American economy has been?

I am completely surprised. Uh but

there's there's a couple of warning

signs. Right. First of all, I'm obliged

to say here, and as you know, the stock

market is not the economy. And the stock

market is not being driven by economic

fundamentals right now. It's being

driven by AI spending to the tune of

hundreds of billions of dollars. And

whether or not that's sustainable is, I

think, very much up in the air. You're

you're far more versed in that than I

am. Uh the American economy is a 29.9ish

trillion dollar beast. And so the tariff

impact so far has been relatively small.

It's the uncertainty, I think, that's

actually been driving the small

businesses saying, "I don't know if we

can do this. We're going to have to

raise prices." And then that trickles

down to the consumers. But I think

there's a there's another thing that's

that's happening here. And and you know,

the president and his cabinet officials

will tell you the president's um they

give three excuses for the tariffs,

right? One is to revitalize American

manufacturing, one is to generate

revenue, and the other one is to protect

American jobs. Um, the problem is that

you can't do all three of those things

at the same time because if you

revitalize American manufacturing, then

we're going to start importing less and

you're going to have less revenue. We

haven't got the workforce that wants to

do a lot of the jobs the president is

trying to protect. He announced

furniture tariffs like 10 days, two

weeks ago. I was talking to a furniture

guy a week ago in North Carolina, which

used to be the hub of American furniture

manufacturing, and he said, "I there are

not 5,000 woodworkers that I can hire to

make my high-end furniture. They just

don't exist in this country anymore."

And so the president is trying, and this

is not my original thought by any means,

the president is trying to take us back

to an economy of the ' 50s, '60s, and

70s. And it's the world isn't that

anymore. It's just not.

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We're back with more from Kai Rudolph.

I'd love to get your thoughts on the

recent uh Secretary of War summit. You

spent eight years in the Navy and I'd

love to get your reaction to Secretary

Hegsth's speech to roughly I think it

was about 800 admirals and generals at

Quantico where he told them essentially

to I saw it as embrace MAGA or quit. Uh

I what what were your reactions when you

saw that speech? I um uh it was

disgraceful. It was laughable and it was

an embarrassment to the armed forces of

the United States. and and people need

to understand, you know, I've been in

journalism now for 25ish years, but but

the most important thing to know about

me is that I'm a veteran and and how

that shapes

um how I see the world. Um

uh look, Secretary Hath is unqualified.

Full stop. I am as qualified as he is to

be the Secretary of Defense, and I'm not

I'm not qualified. Right. Um uh I I was

heartened in that speech to see all

those flag and general officers sitting

on their hands um and doing exactly what

one would expect of them. Uh I am I I

feel badly for them because they're

going to have to go back to the troops

and and explain

what the hell happened and what the

marching instructions are. and they're

going to have to do it in a way that

maintains unit cohesion and the

viability of the force and and that's

going to be really challenging uh

because of the way the secretary and

also the president treat the military as

if it's here's the quote they are his

generals which of course they are not. I

think honestly a more troubling speech

was the thing that the president did

this past weekend down in in Norfolk to

uh to celebrate the Navy's 250th

anniversary.

And he had behind him uh enlisted and a

couple of officer members of the Navy

and he walked out and he said, "Hey,

this is a rally." I mean, this is

literally what he said. He said, "Ah,

it's a rally. Who are we kidding?" And

the crowd behind him, all active duty

military, went crazy. They were

applauding, jumping up, down, just

cheering them on, all of this. And that

to me is ju it's I don't understand how

the commanding officers of these sailors

let that happen. It if professionalism

in the service means anything to you, it

means that you are a political and that

you, as the flag and general officers

did at that speech in Quantico, you sit

on your hands. Now, of course, that's

not why those guys were chosen. And

there is some measure of the American

military, probably sizable, that is in

favor of the president. But that ain't

it. That can't be it. And it's and it's

deeply deeply damaging.

Talk a little bit about your service.

What what was the motivation for joining

the Navy? And I assume you were in it

longer than you you were commissioned or

obligated to. You're in for eight years.

Give give us some color around your

service.

I um so when I went to college, I

thought I was going to be a lawyer. Uh,

and I I took all those, you know,

pre-law courses and this and that. And

then when I was a a freshman, I had a

very good friend of mine who was a um I

was a sophomore. She was a senior. She

was five kappa, you know, maxed out her

elsats, all this jazz. Applied to all

the top law schools and got into none of

them. Um, and I said, "Well, you know,

screw this. I don't I don't need to go

to law school." So, I farted around for

a couple of years. And then and then um

when I was a senior, a guy who had been

a fraternity brother of mine a year

ahead of me came back uh on leave from

Navy flight school. Um and that uh it

just it it appealed to me. It's um my

father served my father got his

citizenship by serving back in the 50s.

So I took the entrance exams. I went

down to officer candidate school in

Pensacola. Um, got my wings and then

went to the fleet. I flew E2C Hawkeyes

off the USS Theater Roosevelt for three

years. I did.

So, you you were a pilot.

Yeah, I flew.

I did not know that. I I would have

thought you were too tall to be a pilot.

No, you know, that's so interesting.

That's the second time in a couple of

days somebody has said that. No, when I

was uh in the recruiting station, you

had to do all kinds of anthropometric

measurements. They sit you in this seat

and they measure your, you know, your

tibia length and your upper body and all

this jazz and and I fit. So, so you

know,

and what was the aircraft you flew?

I flew E2C Hawkeyes, which uh they're

now E2Ds. They've been upgraded, but

they're large turborop aircraft,

carrierbased that have the big radom on

top. So, the uh the mission is command

control and and airspace battle space

management. Um, so I did that for three

and a half years. rolled out of my fleet

squadron on August the 1st, 1990, which

if August the 2nd, 1990 rings a bell,

that's when um Saddam Hussein went into

Kuwait. So, I rolled out of my fleet

squadron right before they got uh

alerted to go to the Gulf. I I wound up

in the Pentagon and the Joint Chiefs of

Staff for um I guess the rest of my

service. I was like two and a half more

years, right? Flight training was two.

Yeah. So, I was in eight years soup to

nuts the last couple years uh on staff

duty at the Pentagon. Um, look, it it um

it it defines me to this day. It it is a

sense of obligation and gratitude for

what the military and this nation has

given me. Um, and I um and that's why

that's why honestly that's why what's

going on now is just so just disturbing

and horrible.

Do you think we'd benefit from mandatory

national service?

Oh, yeah. I've I've advocated for that

forever. I think we would be a different

country. We don't know each other

anymore,

right? We don't and and look, it's a

generational thing. And and I I try to I

try to, you know, even my own kids, I

try to get them to understand this. And

and you know, my service, I imagine

they're proud of it, but I don't think

it resonates with them in a this is what

I want to do kind of thing, you know.

And do you think that type of national

service um you know should would just be

the military or different options around

senior care?

No, look there is there are zillion ways

to serve. Teach for America,

Americanore, you know, what have you,

right? In fact, we don't have the

capacity to do all to accept all the

national service volunteers that we

have. Our programs are not big enough.

We have more volunteers than we can

take. Right? It's setting aside the

military. Let's let's not make it a

draft, right? Because that just

complicates the issue in a zillion

different ways. But if you're just

looking at national service, we don't

have the infrastructure to support all

the volunteers who want to do something

for this country. So obviously, we would

have to spend money and Congress would

have to appropriate and we'd have to get

all the programs up and running. But I

believe it's a worthwhile national goal

because as I said I there's the the the

gap in our knowledge of each other is

enormous

and and that changes who we are as a

society. And look I I don't think you

have to look any farther than the

current political environment to see

that

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We're back with more from Ky Rdall.

Just to pivot back to the um economy

right now, it feels like we have a new

era or we're in a new era of financial

markets where the government is

literally taking equity stakes from

private companies. The Trump

administration now holds positions in

Intel, MP Materials, lithium Americas,

Trilogy Metals, and even a new golden

share in US Steel. What do you make of

this kind of state capitalism, Kai? It's

state capitalism. I don't understand how

the party of free markets and smaller

government suddenly became under Donald

Trump the party of state capitalism. And

we all know that had Biden or Obama done

it,

Washington would have exploded. It would

have just been he would have been

impeached like like 3 days ago. Um it it

is in in my opinion uh not a healthy

thing for corporate America. Um I'm not

sure it's a healthy thing for the

general economy. Um, and I know it's not

a healthy thing for the government of

the United States to be so heavily

vested in state capitalism. It just it's

Look, there are a zillion problems with

American capitalism. Two zillion

problems.

But the government taking actual equity

stakes or taking profits from Nvidia for

sales of certain chips to China,

I how does that help or fix anything?

I don't understand it. And it's and it's

I I don't Look, this goes to a much

larger conversation about about what has

happened to our our political elites who

see these things happening. Republicans

specifically who have the power, all the

power in Washington. Um and are uh in

private saying one thing and then in

public saying, "I'm sorry, I didn't see

the tweet." You know, um

I I don't know. So it feels as if we

have two uh and I like what you said

before and I agree that the stock market

is not the economy but within the stock

market you have 10 companies responsible

for 70% of the gains. There's I think

it's a misnomer to say the S&P 500. I

feel like there's the S&P 490 and the

S&P 10. And you're talking about just

two totally different universes.

The S&P 10 is largely driven on, you

know, AI or optimism and expectations

around AI right now. as someone covers

these stories every day. What does your

gut tell you about where we are with not

only with AI, but it's it's the

expectations in the runup in the in

these stocks? My disclaimer here is that

uh I'm not a financial analyst. I'm not

a market specialist. I'm a guy who's

been covering the general economy for 25

years. I don't actually control any of

my own investments. my wife uh because

number one she's better at it and number

two she's more interested in it is in

charge of of all of our money um and the

other reason is because I should not

have a platform that I have and be

talking about these companies with a

stake in them. So just just to get that

on the table um look that which cannot

go up forever will not and the rate at

which AI spending has been exploding

seems to me to be unsustainable. The

other catch, of course, is that all of

these data centers and all of these

tools that are being built out aren't

actually going to employ a whole lot of

people. And in point of fact, what AI is

going to do is make a whole lot of jobs

in this economy not necessary anymore.

And that I think is the is the economic

flip side of this explosion. At some

point, the lack of returns in real

economy terms

from this AI investment is going to land

and that I think is going to be a real

challenge because the economy has been

built now on the S&P 10.

We've been writing or I've been thinking

a lot about how AI is going to impact

Hollywood and the creative community in

Southern California. And it just it

feels as if I went to

um I my kids are a little bit younger

than yours, Kai. I had so I have to go

to I have to endure superhero films. And

I went to see the Fantastic Four. And

the thing that just blew me away was the

credits were 7 minutes long. And I did

some research. 3,400 people worked on

this film, which is more people than

worked at Red Work at Reddit or Lyft.

And I all I could see was uh the Greek

glands of Sam Alman going, "Oh my god,

wait until I la." Have you guys done any

stories or do you have any observations

around um there's we make this general

assumption and I think it's probably

correct that there's going to be some

labor force destruction at the hands of

AI. Have you done any stories or do you

have any thoughts specifically around AI

as it relates to kind of the creative

community in Hollywood? Yeah, let's

preface this by saying even before AI

really hit the Hollywood community,

movie making in Southern California was

really challenged, right? Other places

are offering tax incentives, Georgia,

right? So, so that's really part of part

of the problem. Um,

so we do have folks who who do AI

stories. the the the thing about AI that

that gets me every time is that the hype

around AI coming from Sam Alman and the

like uh is what's driving all the hype

around AI, right? Alman is going out

there saying we can we're going to

create this I mean this this new video

platform that they have Sora whatever

the hell it is. I mean what what are we

even doing that we are taking a video

platform and making it produce or

letting people produce just completely

fantastical videos that we are now going

to just watch like we watch Instagram

and actual people. So the destruction of

the creative class I think is is very

real. And then and then the extension of

course is you know creativity is what

makes us people and consuming the arts

cinema, movies, TV, actual art is what

makes us humanity. And if that becomes

machine driven

then where do we go?

Speaking of which, or the the media

community, obviously you're you're a key

figure in in the media and in the news

media.

Curious,

you're giving me too much credit, but

thank you.

Uh well, it's funny. I sort of I I

you're little I think the Wall Street

Journal, The Economist, and Kai Rzdoll

were some of my early like prompts

around being interested in business. the

what I'm cur any thoughts on um the

Ellison's acquiring free press and Barry

Weiss being appointed editor-inchief of

uh of CBS.

So, look, there's there's a whole rant

to be had on the media and what it means

in this moment. Consolidation of media

power is in and of itself challenging to

a democracy. Right? look at Jeff Bezos

and his personal ownership of the

Washington Post and what it has meant

for that once great paper. Um, the idea

that Ellison now controls a major movie

studio and one of the big three

broadcast networks, even though

broadcast television is in secular

decline and he's appointed Barry White,

Barry Weiss, excuse me, uh, an opinion

journalist as it is editor-inchief. I

mean, I can't imagine what it's like

actually inside CBS News right now. I I

imagine, you know, she gave this speech

this morning. I don't know when you guys

are going to drop this pod, but she gave

this speech this morning introducing

herself to the CBS new staff, and I I

have to imagine eyes were rolling all

over the place. Um this because this is

such a perilous moment for this

democracy.

The importance of accurate factbased not

afraid to use actual words for what's

happening journalism is critical

and and you see the New York Times

slowly turning the corner from false

claims to lies. Just for instance, a

credulous media will be the death of

this republic. It really will because

unless we're actually willing to say

what is happening, and as a federal

judge said the other day, the

president's position is untethered from

the facts, speaking about Portland,

uh unless we're willing to say that

in our journalism,

we are we are failing this democracy.

So, uh, just a couple thesis or I'll put

forward a couple thesis and you respond

to them. I think a lot of people see the

free press as

being a necessary counterweight to what

has become an increasingly progressive

media complexion that sometimes

uh has its own its own issues with the

quote unquote the truth because the

truth sometimes does not I don't know

fit into a progressive orthodoxy. Any

you know any thoughts on that? So, look,

I I think uh the the mainstream media,

for lack of a better phrase, uh is

generally progressive. Uh but I think it

is also blindered and hindered by its

centuries of journalistic invention,

which has led it now not to call uh a

lie a lie. We're we're slowly making

that turn. And look, this applies to

marketplace as well. But it is it is

incumbent upon us to broaden our

horizons at a time when sorry, that's a

stupid phrase. Broaden your horizons is

a is a trit phrase. It is incumbent upon

us to actually say to our listeners, our

viewers, and our readers what is what is

what is factually happening as opposed

to some euphemism. to the point of the

free press in particular. Right. Look,

free press and and conser conser small C

conservative traditional conservative

media is fine, but when you have

propaganda outlets that are operating

under a tenant of, oh, we're just doing

journalism from a conservative

perspective, that's not what is

happening, right? You you are not

actually doing journalism. You are

carrying water for an element of the

body politic

that is seeking to deceive and to

manipulate

the people of this economy and this

country.

Would you describe CNN and the New York

Times as being propaganda outlets?

Uh I I would No, they're not. They're

not propaganda outlets. That said, I've

got problems with with some of the

things both of them do, as I'm sure they

have problems with some of the things I

do. Right. that's that's it's not, you

know, tit for tat here. Um, but when you

have the reach of CNN and when you have

the reach of public radio and when you

have the reach of the New York Times,

you do nobody any service by both sides,

by using euphemisms, by not saying what

is actually happening.

you know, we've we've had this

conversation inside marketplace and I've

had it with the corporate bosses.

And I sometimes I win and sometimes I

lose. Um but but if I'm not telling

people what is happening, then I'm I

it's malpractice.

I've been struck by how much attention

the acquisition of Free Press has

received. $150 million acquisition.

Well, $150 million, right? That'll get

you. Well, but there's there was an $80

billion merger among railroad companies.

There's been five five acquisitions of

of 8 billion or more in the last week,

and no one really cares. Um, I I find

that and maybe for good reason, the

media is sort of obsessed with itself,

but I guess my question is the

following. Does CBS even matter anymore?

Does it matter who's running it? I mean,

I don't know anyone that watches CBS. It

feels I look at CBS, NBC, and ABC and I

feel like it's 21 minutes of the exact

same damn thing and then a cute story

about a bear that a woman's feeding

hamburger helper to every night. It just

Do the Are these guys are they relevant

anymore?

Yeah, I think that's a really good point

and it's tough to argue. I I will only

argue for what it symbolizes, right? uh

CBS, the Tiffany network, the network of

Walter Kankite and Edward Ar Muro, and

maybe I'm I'm way naval gazing on

journalism history, but there was a

point where those names and more

importantly what they stood for, right?

Muro gives the, you know, television

just tubes in a box unless we do it

right. um what they stood for and I

think that's what is now being being

sacrificed

as opinion journalism goes mainstream.

You know, Barry Weiss won't be able to

decide, you know, how many cameras to

send on a story and she probably won't

be involved in foreign desk assignments,

but she because David Ellison said so

will be able to influence what it is

that CBS News does. And what she does is

opinion journalism for which there is a

place. Um but but at that scale and

and in that vessel of what CBS News used

to be once was um is I don't I don't I I

think that's the the my mental

disconnect on that one.

How are you guys

um evaluate you're presenting? You're a

key figure in

um in public media or the public media

program marketplace.

How are you guys adapting? Like what's

working, what isn't? if you as you try

to thread the needle between economic

viability

and and thoughtful fact check

journalism, which by the way is I find

it's just a shitty business and

economically really challenged. How what

do you what do you think you guys are

doing well and not well and how are you

adapting to this new environment of

media while trying to stay true to the

roots of journalism which sometimes

quite frankly is just not economically

viable?

Yeah. Look, so we inside marketplace uh

and inside the corporate structure that

that owns marketplace um we are we are

uh really challenged in how we go from a

legacy media outlet, right, where

marketplace used to be appointment

listening. It was drive time. It was

people making their dinner and and it

used to be on the radio. And now, right,

that's all gone since the pandemic.

Ain't nobody driving anymore, right? And

podcasts are up and and all of that

stuff. So our challenge now is to meet

people where they are and to develop

this multi-channel strategy where we're

going to do video, we're going to do on

demand, we're going to do broadcast

media because oh by the way broad for

marketplace

broadcast is where the money is. So the

challenge now for for me and if my

corporate bosses hear this, well, we'll

see what happens. But the challenge now

for me is and me and and meaning the

larger marketplace enterprise is to

convince our parent company that

investment in marketplace as we make

this transition for which we are late by

the way to a multi-channel uh operation

will pay returns that will make up for

the loss of broadcast revenue. Right?

our broadcast revenue is up here. Our on

demand revenue is down here. And we

clearly need to change that. We need to

stabilize it and equalize it or it needs

to go like this. And those are the

conversations we're having, right? I

mean, I'm I'm on a trip to corporate HQ

now to talk about philanthropy and

development and donations and and all of

those things because the public media

news model, set aside for a second the

recision and the withdrawing of funding

for the CPB. Public media right now is

in a really challenged space as we make

this transition to multi-channel on

demand and video from a legacy broadcast

outlet. Kai, where do you get your what

are your go-tos for information? I'm

always asked this question and I never

have a good response because I think I'm

a little bit embarrassed about how I

have transitioned from the New York

Times, The Economist, the Wall Street

Journal to quite frankly social media.

I'm now I have great people on TikTok

and on reals economists and people I

think are really really smart that no

one's ever heard of that inform my

viewpoint before you take to the radio

which is you're obviously going to read

the facts but you're also going to have

a spin on you know it's I won't even

call a spin you're going to have

thoughtful color on stuff where do you

find color on the economy who are your

trusted resources

here here's so I do in essence I have

done and my my journey has been the

exact same Right. Going from the times

and the economist and the journal and

all those to social media. The the thing

I spend most of my time on honestly in

news gathering is going uh finding a

thing on social media and digging down

on that. Finding a nugget, finding a

person, right? I mean there are so many

really interesting people on social

media. Social media is a hell hole in a

whole lot of ways. But you find people

there and then you follow them and then

you read their writing and then you read

their substacks and that's how you

gather and you synthesize and then by

the time marketplace goes on the air

hopefully I have a coherent view on what

is happening that day not just from the

times in the journal but from people who

have look and you got to you got to test

their credibility and and all of those

things. But once you've done that and

you realize that they're the go-tos,

then you you use them and you synthesize

their information into the way you

present whatever we have chosen as our

lead story or whatever the feature story

is.

And just as we wrap up here, you're kind

of rounding third in terms of your

career. Have you thought about

Thanks, man. Well, you're you've you

you're an iconic whether you like it or

not. You're sort of an iconic figure

that kind of marks marks the the medium

or at least the approach to the medium.

What professionally,

well, I'll say and personally, what I've

been thinking and there's a lot of this

is projection because I'm just so

freaked out about being 60. I

can't stop thinking about the fact that

it's, you know, we're we're not on the

back nine. We're on the 18th hole is the

way I see it. And

like what have you what have you thought

about professionally? What boxes are

left for you to check? And also if

you're comfortable like personally I

think you're you're you guys are now

empty nesters, right?

Yeah. So our youngest child, our

daughter, we just dropped our daughter

off at school two weeks ago.

Oh, congrats. I would love for you let's

start there. What was that like?

Uh so the the the good part is it's

going really well so far. So we dropped

off from school. We took a a long slow

drive down the California coast back to

LA. Uh we had three or four days to just

sort of decompress, you know. Um she she

was ready to go, you know. She was like,

"Okay, see you later." Right. And and my

wife and I were like, "Oh, really? Okay,

bye." And um

uh and and then we got back home and we

kind of slid right in. Um the house is

quieter. um we we are not buying as much

food which makes total sense but after

so you know we've been parenting kids

for 27 years our refrigerator has been

stocked I have three boys who are you

know just ginormous eaters so the amount

of food in the fridge is just shockingly

small um but but the mental change to

the two of us is going really well I

think it's um we are rediscovering

um how to be a couple again with kids

bopping in and out every now and then.

On the professional front,

um,

as as I like to say to the kids when

they were little, you know, dad, what do

you do and do you know this and are you

a celebrity and all that, I'd be like,

you know what, I'm a pretty big fish in

a very small public media pond. Um,

so the next chapter now, I figure I've

got one left, maybe two if I play my

cards right, is increasingly on my mind.

Uh, where do I go from here? I am

indelibly associated with Marketplace

and the Marketplace brand, which to be

clear is a privilege and an honor,

right? I'm I'm super proud of the work

I've done at this program for for 20

years, 25 in the shop. Um, now, where do

I go? What do I do? And and not to, you

know, I don't need to blow smoke up your

ass, but I'm I'm always impressed when I

listen to you um talk about your career

path about how you bet on yourself. And

that's my challenge now is to bet on

myself and figure out where I'm going to

go.

Kyus Doll is the host and senior editor

of the public media program Marketplace,

the nation's most listened to show on

business and the economy. Uh so anyways,

brother, thanks very much and keep on

keeping on.

Thank you. Good to talk to you.

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