Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Okay. Let's rock them.

>> You need the headphones.

>> Never.

>> No.

>> Okay.

>> Um,

>> if it's okay if it's okay with you. I I

know. I've seen it both ways on

>> No, you don't have to wear them. Okay.

>> Well, you you were telling me about your

cane. That cane is amazing.

>> It's It's amazing. It's it's carved by

the Doan people who who were in in Mali

and the the uh it's a family that's been

doing it for 100 years and many of them

were killed in the Rwanda wars. Um it's

it's heavy. It's beautifully done I

think and it's been a close companion of

mine for many years. It seems to be

indestructible.

>> It's pretty awesome looking. It looks

heavy. The Doon people have a very

strange origin story. It's a fascinating

origin story that involves

>> is it uh

the

involves like here it is. That's I don't

want I didn't want to misspeak. So here

it is. Um

centers on the supreme creator Amma and

the cosmic journey of the amphibious

water spirits known as the NMA.

So they have this crazy cosmic origin

story that's a part of their mythology.

Amma then attempted to procreate with

the earth, but the pairing was flawed.

It's like a very strange descendant of

the ark. According to the Doon

traditions, the NMA descended to Earth

from the Sirius star system and a giant

ark-like vessel. The vessel contained

the eight original human ancestors along

with the seeds and animals needed to

populate the world. Those are the do

>> amazing. It's amazing. I didn't know

that was amazing.

>> Crazy story.

>> My I have a daughter who's a nature

photographer. I mean, does a lot of work

in Africa and um and uh she knows all

about that stuff.

>> So, you were telling me before we got

rolling, I said, "Save this for the

air." That Vladimir Zalinsky and his

wife have seen Basic Instinct how many

times?

>> 15. At least 15. There's a recent

biography

that that said that that began when they

were courting and that they had known

each other before and one day she saw

him with with this tape in his hand. She

said, "What is it?" And he said, "Basic

instinct and they then they saw it

together and it had such an effect on

them that they they played it together

many times at least 15 times during on

their anniversaries." Now,

I'm not sure what that says. And you

know, and I know that some people think

the movies had a kind of amatory effect

on them. But the other thing that's

interesting to me is if you see it 15

times, does does it really [ __ ] you up

to the point where you go to war with

with with

Putin? I mean, is that the real key to

why it happened?

>> Well, in his defense, Putin attacked

first, right?

>> Absolutely. and and I like Zilinsky very

much as a figure and I'm I'm very

sympathetic to the Ukrainians because

I'm I've got a Hungarian background and

in 1956 the Russians devastated Hungary

in a similar freedom fight. So maybe

maybe it gave him the balls and the

wisdom to go after Putin.

>> Maybe it just made it.

>> Who knows? Might have nothing to do with

the war.

>> Might might not.

>> You made some crazy [ __ ] movies, man.

You really did.

>> It well be. There are 18 of them that

have been made and there have been like

34 scripts that had been so there's 16

that haven't been made and and I don't

know, you know, I I kid around and I say

there's a twisted little man inside me

who lives in some spot that I'm not sure

where it exactly is, but he's 29, born

29, he will die 29, and with anything

that has a relatively strong sexual

content, he wrote the [ __ ] thing. I'm

just an old guy giving him the space,

you know. So, when the when the recent

deal was made for a record amount of

money for Basic Instinct 3, because

there was a sequel to it, that was that

was a total piece of [ __ ] and I had

nothing to do with. But this would be

three. And my title for it is is Basic

Instinct Jezebel. um the um Twisted

Little Men put together this story um

that I that I think people will have fun

with. But it's but it's it's continues

in that same vein and it seems to be his

specialty, you know. So, let's see what

happens.

>> I like how you refer to yourself as like

another person.

>> Yeah.

>> The twisted man.

>> There is, you know, there's a thing with

with little kids where they have have a

companion, an invisible companion,

right? And the twisted little man is my

main one. I have others. Mark Dwayne is

one and interestingly Jesus of Nazareth

is another you know and then these these

people are very very close to me. Twist

the little man is a darker presence than

the others. Although though Twain is a

cross between the two of them and I

absolutely love him.

>> So when you were writing things like

Basic Instinct, do do you really feel

like you were channeling like another

person? Is that what it felt like? It

felt well let me tell the backdrop the

the uh I wrote it in 13 days. Um the um

um and and and then then I felt like

like

it just poured out of me. There is a

background to it and that is that the

Katherine Tal character and then the

Nick Curran character. Um many many

years before in college um I had an

affair with a I was an 18-year-old kid

and I had an affair with a faculty

member's wife. Um and it was a serious

affair and and the the um we

she was sophisticated, smart, beautiful,

um sassy um um exactly the kind of woman

I've always fallen for. and the the uh

and she had a profound effect on me.

Now, at at the end of the at the end of

the year, she moved on and I discovered

that there was a different student that

she was with each each year and that her

husband looked the other way. Um the uh

>> how old was she?

>> 39. And I I was 18. I was a very green

18 because I grew up an ethnic immigrant

kid. Um the uh the the uh

I I I fell in love easily. Um but

falling in love easily also meant a lot

in terms of learning things because I I

was an immigrant and I really didn't

know this country and I was shy. Um, and

and I learned a lot sometimes, I think,

more from the from the women that I was

together with the beginning in college

and through the rest of my life than

than I preferred the company of women

always. Um, because they weren't armored

off in in male macho, right?

>> Um, but but anyway, she was stuck there

in my memory. And then when I was a

police reporter um almost a decade and a

half later um a decade later at the

plane dealer, I had a buddy who was a

cop that I liked very much who had been

involved in three or four shootings. Um

and when we got to know each other and

we spent time drinking together and we

did a lot of that, I started wondering

how if he really liked the shootings,

was it was it an itchy trigger finger or

did he just get off on it? So somehow

these two characters were in my head and

and then I thought about them a lot but

they didn't come together. And then I

think thanks to the twisted little man

one day the two came together in in in a

love story. And that was the that was

the genesis of basic instinct. Um and by

the time I I wrote it I thought about it

subconsciously and and directly for a

long time. I would wake up in the middle

of the night um and and jot notes down,

which happens to be sometimes when when

I'm very involved in a script. Um and I

wrote it in in Hawaii. Um I went off to

Hawaii by myself. I let the sun beat me

up. I snorted some coke. Um the uh which

which was an habit in those days. Um and

after 13 days of of all of that, and the

other thing I did was listen to the

Stones all the time. I loved the Stones.

I I loved the blues from the time I was

an immigrant kid. and the stones just

blew everything else out during that

period of time for me. So I listened to

that at the end of 13 days that I had

this script. Then I went went back home

to Marin um typed it up, sent it almost

sent it to my agent with the title Love

Hurts and I was going out the door. The

twisted little man had another thought

and I raced back inside and wrote the

words Basic Instinct. Sent it to my

agents. They auctioned it. Um, 10 days

later, my main agent, Guy Mawin, who

became my big brother and and uh and one

of the people I really loved in life,

everybody bid on it. Um, the it wound up

selling for a record $3 million. Um, and

then it became a towering hit to this

day a trend. Um the uh and this has now

gotten the critics in the beginning were

critical

mildly critical. No actually the critics

were really after the movie and then

through the years um the the critics

have had a change of mind and

>> isn't that funny? Yeah, it just the

woman named Camille Bakia who is a main

feminist critic um who went went up

against the movie very strongly recently

not recently but in the past five or 10

years has come around and said that that

the movie is the example of it's a post

feminist classic she says and it's about

women who don't who don't have to hide

their sexuality. Um so I'm

>> wild that she made such a turnaround.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I wonder did you ever have a

conversation with her?

>> No, I I've never met her. She teaches um

somewhere on the east coast and and she

has a towering reputation but I never

met her. I usually don't listen to

critics. It's through the 18 films and

you know I don't I don't listen to

critics. I worked with a director

Richard Markwand who directed Jacket

Edge and the Hearts Excuse me and Hearts

of Fire and we worked on another another

one together and Richard said to me that

u critics should be taken out into the

backyard and shot. Okay. Went with

another director Mike Figus on the one

night stand who said that critics should

be taken out of the backyard and

headbutted to death. I

was sympathetic to both to both things.

>> It's so wild that your views were formed

by this relationship that you have when

you're 18 with an older horny smart lady

who's like, you know, kind of wild.

>> Yes.

>> And then a cop.

>> Yes.

>> Who might have been a shady cop.

>> Yes. and and how the two came together

and in this in this twisted thing called

creativity,

>> you know, and they come out of this

maelstrom.

>> Um, now the other thing I'm sure was an

influence is by the time

>> I did that, I'd been through four years

of police beat experience covering cops.

Um, two in Dayton, Ohio and two in

Cleveland.

And excuse me. And that consisted of at

that point of driving around in a

company car that got the police radio um

and responding to whatever was going on.

On occasion,

you got there before the cops got there.

Um and then the the one that really

stuck in my head and and got inside me

was was there was one with the report of

a shooting a suburb in Dayton. And I got

there, um, there were no cops there. The

the the front door was wide open. I

walked in. Um, I I I passed the body of

a guy who who had shot himself and there

was blood all over the wall and then a

woman was his wife that he shot. And I

heard someone in the back of the house

screaming and crying. And then I walked

went back there and the thing that was

really got to me is she was screaming

and crying in Hungarian. Um the and it

was an old lady who was the the mother's

mom. Um and and of course I spoke fluent

Hungarian. I grew up Hungarian. Um and

uh and there was something about the

scene that that's with me to this day.

The other police beat experience I had,

Joe, that was that was very moving was I

covered the the Glennville urban

uprising in Cleveland. It was a big one

and there were I think six or seven

policemen um shot and killed. Um the I

was crouched behind a um a a car on the

street dugging down with with about 10

ft in front of me was a was a cop

bleeding, badly bleeding, moaning. um

and knew the the the um

and at the same time there were gunshots

coming from from this apartment house

and I heard that the that the gunshots

were coming from a group of so-called

black nationalists led by a man named

Fred Ahmed Evans. I knew both men

from the police beat. Um the the uh the

the cop um was Hungarian. Um, his name

was Elmer Joseph. Um, and he would come

around to the little office in the

policeman all the time and I knew him.

And and the black man was named Fred

Ahmed Evans. Um, and he would come by in

his dashiki sometimes at 2 in the

morning because I worked the overnight

shift sometimes. And we had the greatest

talks, you know, drank a lot of beer,

smoked a lot of dope, um, and got to be

pouted. and he was leading the group of

black nationalists and who had been who

were shooting these policemen. And I was

behind this this this car's wheels a few

feet away from the whole [ __ ]

>> Whoa.

>> And I and I found the whole thing so

frightening and so disturbing that I

pissed my pants.

>> Um the the um so the the four years of

police there were other incidents. I

covered the the urban uprisings in in

Detroit, two in Cleveland and one in

Newark. Um the I was very involved in

the civil rights movement. Um the um and

I you know the that's what I did. I I

covered whatever was breaking and much

of it was dark stuff. Um so by the time

that hookup happened between Katherine

um Katherine Trel and Nick Cerran, there

was a lot that went into it.

>> Yeah. I could imagine like what the

insane life experience to be able to see

all those different crime scenes and

witness all that and

>> you know the what happened was that I

happened to pick a field um that

journalism I thought and and so did

Hunter one of the things uh we became

friends we were both poor kids the and

we both dreamed of being novelists

novelist

>> and Hunter Thompson

Yeah, 100 times. Um, and the way that we

chose to begin that was by doing

journalism because no one made a living

writing novels and we both had to make a

living. Um, so the the under wrote stuff

for the National Enquire and then moved

on to Rolling Stone and all of that and

I did it on on a local level and the the

that put us into a culture that was

exploding. Um the American society was

exploding. The the black situation visav

white racism was horrendous. Um so there

was a dynamic in the country um that we

were on top of because of what we did.

So I saw a lot um I saw a lot in the

refugee camps because I was in I began

my seven years in refugee camps in

Austria and then grew up um dirt poor in

an urban city. Um the the uh and uh I

saw a lot of lot of stuff there as well

that was that was dark and moving and

and uh and profoundly effective. This

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>> Well, also, so when you're writing,

you're writing from real world

experience.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is so much more effective and

makes sense why your stuff was so dark

and wild.

>> Yeah, it does make sense. the the um and

the you know I mean I was when I was a I

was a kid in Cleveland growing up um we

lived in in a very poor part of town

near west side um and there's a bar next

door um and the um and I say I slept in

the on a couch in the living room that's

overlooked the bar and and one night um

and I was looking out the window because

I always was the the

neon lights and Puerto Rican hookers and

all of that stuff that really interested

a little kid who would spend most of his

time playing with Mark as Mark Twain

said with his pecker, you know. And so

this was all very exciting stuff. Um and

the one I was watching one one day and I

saw this man stab another one to death

and fall down and bleed to death.

>> Oh jeez. How old were you?

>> 12.

>> Oh Jesus.

Um yeah so um there are reasons why the

other thing with my scripts is almost

everything in my scripts that somehow

comes from some kind of personal tie you

know big shots which was little movie

that that was very popular with kids

came from my son Steve's experience um

in Marin County with a black friend and

how they tried to make that friendship

work um and that's what the movie is.

It's a little movie about two kids, a

white kid and a black kid, um them

trying to become friends. Um the uh the

the the there was a movie I did called

Checking Out with Jeff Daniels and that

was about midlife crisis and suddenly

now at the in my early to mid-30s I was

scared shitless that said I was going to

die and here I am at [ __ ] 81 talking

about dying at that 30 something. Um but

but so there was there was a comedic

thing that came out of that. Um

basically came out of where it where it

did. Um but there was almost with

everyone there was some kind of betrayed

came out of out of the notion that at

that particular point if you remember

there was all this right-wing craziness

where there were militias that that were

shooting people and and uh there were

jamborees where the where the

right-wingers got together.

>> When was this? betrayed which which came

out in the mid 80s. There were several

incidents in Oregon and in in the

northwest parts of the country which got

a lot of publicity. It was before

Timothy McVey. Um but but all roughly in

that same period. So I decided under a

under a false name to go to one of these

jambere and see what the hell is going

on. And then it was essentially my

journalism experience. I went into it

and then out of it I concocted this

romance between Deborah Winger and Tom

Barer. So, but they they all had some

kind of a tie. Telling Lies in America,

which is one of my favorite little

movies with Kevin Bacon and Brad Renfro,

is semi-auto autobiographical

in terms of the issues I had as a high

school kid with bullying and all of

those kinds of things in the uh becoming

an American citizen. Um the uh they were

shot

incidentally right where I grew up in

front of the apartment house where we

lived. Um the um and I remember hearing

a TV reporter in Cleveland interview an

old man um was watching the the uh the

shooting and saying um did you know Joe

and he grew up here? And he said, "Yeah,

I was a bartender there." And he then he

said, "Shit, Joe is just a [ __ ]

refugee trying to make his way in the

world." That's he nailed it. I mean

that's really what not a complicated

thing but that's really what happened.

The only the other the only other other

things and nice things have been said

about me through the years but the only

other thing that's that I really

treasure and absolute love is uh I

covered I interviewed Ois Reading the

night before he was killed in the plane

crash in Cleveland and the the u we

started we began speaking around

midnight after a show at a place called

Leo's Casino.

Um and uh and we began talking around

midnight and talked till 3:30 in the

morning. Um and the uh we did a lot of

beer. We did a lot of Jim Beam. We

smoked a lot of really powerful Thai

stuff. Um and had a great time. And at

the end of it, he had to he had to go go

he said, "Give me a [ __ ] hug." And I

gave him a hug. And he said, "You know

what you want?" He said, "You're a

[ __ ] white [ __ ] That's what you

are." And I I love that. It stayed with

me all the time. New York Times said

he's a force of nature. People said, "If

Shakespeare were alive today, would his

name be jok?"

>> Well, hearing that Otis writing was such

a legend.

>> Oh, he was he was great.

>> He died so young, too. How old

>> he died. He was really I was in his 30s

someplace. But listen to this. The

interviewed him. And I went home the

next day at the Blaine dealer. It was

Sunday and I was working um literally

the day after the interview and uh so

I'm sitting there and in this hallike

city room and the the I see a city

editor that the the Associated Press

wire machine start dinging and in those

days if it had more than like four or

five dings there was some bad thing that

happened. So I s I saw a city editor

come from the city desk to this dinging

machine, right? And he's staring at it.

The [ __ ] thing is still dinging,

staring at it. And then he looks at me

like that in in the city room and then

he looks away. So I saw that and then I

got up and went to to the digging

machine and Otis his plane had had

crashed um the uh the way to another

gig. Um, and I I was probably the last

man who really spoke to him at at

length.

>> Wow.

>> Um, the um I left the office right then

and just said, "Fuck it." for the rest

of the day. There was a bar across the

street. Um, drank myself silly and went

home with the waitress. I mean, I just,

you know, just horrible. But, but I saw

a lot. If you get back to your point

show, I did. in different ways.

Incidentally, I tried to write a movie

about all this called Blaze of Glory.

Um, and the the um we put it together. A

man named John Abdad was going to direct

it and it was announced that Cuba

Gooding was going to play Otis and the

the whole thing fell apart at the last

minute for financing reasons and to this

day it's never got made. But um I'm a

writer. What else can I do with someone

that I loved at a meeting except write

about them in that way, right? So, so

>> anybody who writes interesting things

the way you do has to have had some

interesting life experiences. You don't

get those kind of scripts that you wrote

from a a sterile environment.

>> Yeah. Um I I agree with that. Yeah.

sometimes

um not that the the after my my

conversion to Christ the Christianity

later late late in my life I wrote three

um Christian scripts and none of them

were made um and one of one of them

wasn't made was wasn't made because um

the one of the priests involved with

potentially getting Christian financing

has said we need more incense

Right. And my response to to to somebody

who interviewed me about it was, I don't

write [ __ ] incense. I write flesh and

blood, you know. So So no wonder it

wasn't made.

>> What did he mean by you need more

incense?

>> Well, the to make it more himlike to

make make give it a sense of piety. um

they would to take

to make it inspire the people so that

they become

um Catholic in this specific case and

that it was too secular. Um and and I

think what happened to me with all three

is that I fell between pews between

so-called Christian films and secular

films.

>> Um and uh and so that's why we never got

the finance all three of them. When you

say you fell between Christian films and

secular films, you mean in the way you

were writing it that you weren't writing

it specifically as a Christian film or

specifically as a secular film?

>> The way I was writing it naturally the

without

>> like you wrote everything else.

>> Yeah. Without political considerations

or

clergical clerical considerations. I was

just writing it from my heart and that

was too gritty to get Christian kind of

financing and on the other hand too

religious to get the secular financing.

>> That's too bad because that bridge is

probably what would bring more people to

Christianity where they could relate to

it. I agree with you absolutely and my

argument was, you know, these could be

hit movies because my movies in a lot of

cases have been these could be hit

movies and that's more important than

than than

spiking people with incense, right? You

know,

>> it's interesting how Hollywood has

always rejected those kind of religion

film, religious films like uh The

Passion of the Christ for instance. That

was a huge movie. Well, it's not just a

huge movie, but in my mind, um, it was

like a prayer, you know, the, uh, I

watch it each Good Friday. Um, and it

was a huge movie, beautifully done. Um

the uh the uh it was it wasn't

officially endorsed by the Catholic

Church, although I saw I saw in

Cleveland a a meeting where where a

priest organized a preview um screening

of the movie and they had like 700

people the full hall watching it. There

was such an interest in it. But part of

the part of the reason I think and you

rais a good point because I think part

of the reason um it was such a towering

hit was that it was real. It wasn't

>> it wasn't incense filled. It was real.

There was you had a figure who bled and

you really show what happened up on that

cross and how awful.

>> Yeah.

>> But that kind of pain is and the movie

really reflected that.

>> No, it was horrific. And then there was

also that William Defoe film. What was

that one called? the the last temptation

of Christ.

>> That's right.

>> The smartest scores. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. The uh I agree with that. The I

love wood fo I mean he's one of my

favorite actors.

>> Um the and and I liked it and it's also

very real that historically real.

>> Yeah. you know, the the the the notion

that that

Jesus of Nazareth

um you know, was this Fred Rogers figure

um who wasn't really a real man whereas

the Bible says he was a true man and

true God. Um the that show really showed

his that film really showed his human

side.

>> Yeah. and and my conception of Jesus who

I rever and who is one of my one of my

close friends that I speak speak to on

most days um the uh is that he was true

man and true god. He was a Jewish zealot

a freedom fighter against the Roman

Empire. Um the he was crucified by the

Romans. Um the as a freedom fighter, he

hung around bluecollar guys and and and

fishermen and hookers and tax collectors

who were the lowest of the low back then

as they should be now, but they were the

lowest of the low back then. And those

were the people that he primarily

buddied around with. That's that's Jesus

of Nazareth. and and and that that side

is is completely ignored by most films

except the two that you mentioned

specifically that are like that.

>> Yeah. the last temptation of the Christ.

I don't remember I remember there was

some controversy around it but I don't I

was too young to really be paying

attention to like how

>> the it was the very fact that Jesus had

a relationship

that was clearly indicated as being

sexual with Mary Magdalene who was

depicted as a prostitute. Now the truth,

historical truth is that Mary Magdalene

was a few years older than Jesus and a

woman of means who had advised um

advised

Roman builders in it in a city called

Sarapin. And then was one of the people

who financed Jesus as he swept through

Galilee and and the rest of Judea. Um, a

a there's another scene in the in in the

Bible where where an unnamed woman um

goes to Jesus and and

washes his feet um and then washes his

feet with his hair, right? This unnamed

woman

by a pope in the sixth century, Gregory

the Great, was picked to have been Mary

Magdalene. No connection to Mary

Magdalene. There's no no nothing that

says that million back then was a hooker

of any kind and then there's no proof

for that in any way. So the fact that

the last temptation of Christ did that

and and and and

brought the two of them together in a

sort of semi

love story without of course any real um

sexuality to it on film is why it was so

criticized. Scorsese's house was

picketed and I think the studio at that

point was run by Lou Werman

whom I knew from from Cleveland because

he was a he was a u

he ran a racing wire in Cleveland before

he went but but he was legendary man.

His house was was bigoted as well.

>> So was it just uh Catholic people and

Christian people that were upset about

this?

>> Mostly. Yeah. Yeah.

>> But it was it was very unusual for a

Martin Scorsese film to be a religious

film too, like a depiction of Jesus. It

>> people were much more averse back then.

I I feel like sometimes like religion

goes in like peaks and waves and I think

>> there was a wave of atheism back then

and Hollywood was very non-Christian to

put it mildly. Yes. It wasn't the the

Christian themes and films were never

promoted.

>> Yeah. It was You're absolutely right.

The u it's not as bad now in that sense

as it was it was in those days. The and

I think that that part of it what

frustrates me is that

is that there would be an openness to

that and into and and to Christian films

if they were real if they didn't if they

weren't full of incense and piety,

right?

>> You know what we've done to Jesus over

the years is make him a kind of Fred

Rogers figure. You know, he wasn't that.

Um, you know, the I'm not even sure that

Jesus really said, "Do not resist

violence." You know, Jesus also said,

"If you have a a cloak, but not a sword,

sell the cloak and buy a sword." He also

said, um, the I come not to make peace.

I come

not not not to make peace, but with a

sword, you know. So the

there's been a lot of of um of church

stuff um and then especially I think

Catholics are more guilty of this that

to romanticize and sort of cosmeticize

the figure of Jesus of Nazareth.

>> Well, there's always a problem when

human beings add their own

interpretation to an ancient story and

>> absolutely

>> and do it for to fit their own

narrative.

>> Absolutely. it's a great problem. But in

this case, there is historical evidence

on the other side and they they simply

ignore that and pretend it doesn't

happen. The Gnostic gospels um are full

of of um so-called revolutionary things.

And the truth is that the Gnostic

gospels were written 40 years 30 40

years after the death of of of Jesus.

Whereas the Zenata gospels, the ones

that the churches have accepted were

written 80, 90 years after the death of

Jesus. So they had to have been taken

secondhand from people who said they saw

things where with the previous there's a

there's a shot that people directly saw

them. The people in in in in the church

gospels who are named like Matthew,

Mark, Luke, and John were not the people

who are in the gospels as Matthew, Mark,

Luke, and John. Then nobody knows who

wrote them. They took with those names,

but they were they were not those

people.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I had no idea.

>> Absolutely. No doubt. Even the u even

the the churches admit that at this

point

2,000 years is such a hard time for us

to conceptualize to put into our head as

to how much time has passed.

>> Yes. such a you know to try to get an

accurate understanding of what was going

on back then it's insanely difficult.

>> I have become a since since

my my sort of conversion to to

Christianity and I would style myself a

devout Christian but not not a devout

Catholic even though I go to mass um and

I I love the mass and believe in it. But

since um since 2001

when this process really began, I I

become a real student of the historical

Jesus. Um the u the u and I learn more

and more and I'm I'm more and more

astounded at at what's been done

to cosmeticize

um this man who is Jesus of Nazareth.

>> Well, it's also he had some of the most

profound and

and

insanely resonating

teachings like even today the words that

he spoke 2,000 years ago there still

today people I mean they they resonate

with people and if you live your life by

the teachings of Jesus Christ you will

be a better person you will

>> it is a great framework to live your

life

>> yes

>> which is incredible when you think about

a person that lived so long ago

>> he is a much better person to to pick as

your um imagined companion than Mark

Twain,

>> your imagined companion. Let me ask you

this when it come because I had a long

conversation with um Mel Gibson about

this. What do you think about the shroud

of Turin?

>> Well, there was a study done a major

study that was done by by the Catholic

Church led by John Paul 2 who whom I I I

really admired.

um the um and and and read a lot about

through the years that this is a

scientific study that discovered that

the shroud of of trin came from 1313 or

1320.

um the um now this is huge controversy

about it and there are those people who

who feel that that absolutely is Christ

and I must say that when I look at it

when I look at that figure and I've I've

done that a lot and in my house we have

several blowups of of

Tin's Christ it's very very moving um

the um but the the evidence what there

is seems to indicate to that it comes

from the 1300s.

>> Yeah, I've seen that as well. But then

I've also seen people that say that that

evidence

>> there's some some controversy about that

evidence. There is and that some of the

cloth they they believe dates to far

earlier and it's the type of cloth and

the way it's made

>> seems to indicate that it's far older.

>> Um I don't know how much of the cloth

they've carbon tested. you know that

that is also an issue and whether or not

it had been repaired or whether or not

there had been additional pieces.

>> I don't either. But you know what?

Ultimately, when I look at that and when

I look at that Jesus and and I've done

that quite a bit, that face really moves

me. So, in a sense, I don't give a [ __ ]

>> At the very least, it's an insanely

compelling piece of artwork.

>> Absolutely.

>> At the very least. Absolutely. But

there's also a lot of very strange

mysteries as to how that was created in

the first place because it's not a die

and they're not exactly sure what caused

that image to appear or how if that if

that is a piece of art, they don't know

how that art was created. And the fact

that they really only could see the

accurate representation of it once they

saw it as a negative is also very

interesting because who's going to make

a piece of art where you can only really

appreciate what it looks like when you

see it as a negative.

>> Especially when you're talking about

something that you're doing you're

making something in the 1300s,

>> right?

>> Hundreds of years before photography is

ever created. So what are you what are

you making and why is it so compelling

when you look at it in the negative? And

if you're talking about something that

was created by an insane burst of

energy, which is what the proponents of

the Shroud of Torin being legitimate

think, they think it was created by this

insane burst of energy on Jesus's

resurrection. You know, I'm not I'm

agnostic on it. I don't have no idea

whether it's real or not real, but I I

find it fascinating that they have no

real explanation as to how it was

created.

the

I'm pretty much of a complete ignoramus

on anything that have to do with

science. Um, you know, I've learned

algebra and geometry and even biology,

although I caught up with biology from

personal experience, but but I just

don't know. It doesn't matter to me

ultimately because I'm moved when I look

at that when I pray before that image

and I look at it. Um, I'm moved. So, as

far as I'm concerned, and for me it's

real. It may not be for other people.

>> Well, like I said, it's at the very

least it's an insanely compelling piece

of artwork.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

>> But the thing that I don't want to

dismiss the possibility that it's real

because I'm fascinated by just the

mystery of how was Can you pull up an

image of the the

>> the negative version of it?

>> Yeah. I was just trying to look up a

bunch of stuff you guys are talking

about though and there's no answers for

any of the stuff you're saying.

>> There's no answers as terms of why

>> I like I was looking for an accurate

recreation someone's made, you know, in

the last 200 years and doesn't seem to

be one.

>> No, no one has.

>> Yeah. When you look at the image and you

realize that this is an actual negative

of the original shroud,

you you just you stop and think like,

well, what would someone do if you if

this is the negative? Like, how would

you create that as a positive? Because

it can you show me also the positive

image of it? What it actually look like?

Okay, so here's this is one image. So,

this is what it actually looks like.

This is the actual shroud.

And when you look at that, you go,

"Okay, I see like shadows and it's very

interesting." And then switch over to

the negative and it all comes to life.

And there's marks from the lashes from

the the whip marks. There's there's

blood stains from where the rods went

through his wrists.

>> It's very fascinating.

>> Yeah, it sure is.

>> And again, this is not dye. It's not ink

and they don't really know how it was

made. And again, no one has been able to

recreate this.

>> Yeah. The the uh cloth was made most

likely from a loom that wasn't invented

until like the 1300s.

>> Okay.

>> That doesn't necessarily mean that's

where it for sure came from though. But

>> Right. Right. But um

>> here's about the image. This is like how

how was the image transferred to the

cloth? I asked just you know does

anybody have any idea? I've seen a video

where someone gave some sort of

scientific explanation but I don't know

if I could remember how to find it right

now.

>> Says it behaves like a photographic

negative negative and shows some 3D

information which is unusual for normal

artwork. Uh the chemical theories that

body heat, sweat or vapors reacting with

the cloth I uh example ammonia or lactic

acid from sweat may have uh have been

proposed but don't reproduce the

shroud's sharp non-blurry details.

Simple heat or scorch theories likewise

fail to match the very shallow nonburn

discoloration of the fibers. human or

man-made image uh human-made image

theories painting or rubbing from bass

relief has been tested but studies have

not found pigments in the amounts or

patterns that would explain the image

and there's no clear brush strokes

primitive photography some suggest that

a medieval camera using light sensitive

silver salts and lenses could have

projected a body or statue onto the

cloth and experimental replicas show

that it's at least physically possible

though historically speculative and now

here's the weird One, radiation bursts

of energy theories. Some researchers

argue that a brief intense burst of

ultraviolet or similar radiation from

the body could have discovered

discolored only the top fibbrals

producing a non-cont image even where

cloth and body didn't touch. Proponents

sometimes link this to Jesus's

resurrection. But the need the needed

radiation billions of watts without

burning the cloth is far beyond anything

observed in nature. And this remains a

speculative face-based idea rather than

an established physical mechanism. In

short, there's no consensus mechanism.

The image transfer process is still

unexplained, and every proposed method

has serious problems when tested against

the cloth's measured properties.

Wild.

>> Amazing. I mean, there's no other piece

of artwork that's that fascinating

>> because every other art, Michelangelo's

work, you know, all this incredible art,

it's art. You see what they did. There's

brush strokes, there's chisel marks,

they, you know, they made incredible

sculptures, but it's clearly man-made

art,

>> right?

>> This is a different thing. It's a very

strange thing. If you can't recreate it

today, if they could recreate it today,

people would be doing it. They'd be

making their versions of the Shroud of

T.

>> Absolutely. I don't know that that's

been done historically, but what you

know whether some, you know, some nutbag

has decided to do business over

recreating the shroud of terrain.

>> Is there did they carbon test it? And

what what are the what are the arguments

that it's older? Because I I do know

that there have been some very recent

arguments that the testing was incorrect

and that it's older. See if you can find

out what that is.

whether or not

AI whether perplexity our sponsor has

some sort of a bias

like

the thing is it's like pulling from all

these when when you get an AI response

to something it's pulling from all these

articles on the web and most of the

articles seem to indicate that people

think it's at least either a hoax

>> or an elaborate

>> carbon dating seems like it happened in

1988 so I don't know that they've done

it

>> supporters of an earlier date argue that

the 198 88 radiocarbon results. 1988 is

a long time ago. Sampled an anomalous or

contaminated area and that other

historical and scientific clues point to

a much older cloth. Okay. What is the

scientific arguments? Contaminated

repaired sample. Some research claim the

1988 test piece came from a rewoven or

heavily handled corner. So its carbon

date reflects medieval repairs, not the

original cloth. Alternative dating

methods. X-ray or crystalog

crystalallographic aging of linen fibers

has produced dates compatible with the

first century. Though these methods are

newer and not widely widely accepted as

definitive pollen and dust. Analysis

reports pollen grains and mineral dust

consistent with the first century Middle

East rather than only medieval Europe

which proponents say supports a much

older origin. Image property. Some argue

that the image microscopic features and

burst of energy type characteristics

require technology or phenomena unlikely

in the Middle Ages implying an earlier

extraordinary event.

Well, why don't they do a a retesting?

>> Uh,

>> they probably don't want to know that it

actually is from the 1300s.

>> I just don't think they want

>> John Paul too um really believed in it.

No,

>> he went to see it in Trent several

times. He said he was moved by it.

That's when they launched this big

Vatican investigation and he never said

in any way that he agreed with the

investigation. Just seem to drop the

whole issue. Um the and then then from

what I know it never went any further,

you know. Um but he visited it twice. It

went out of his way.

>> Where is it be?

>> It's in Tins

looking up that too. It's currently in

the Chapel of the Holy Shroud. But so

here's interesting was who found it and

when and why or whatever.

>> The earliest undisputed record appears

in the 19 the 1350s rather in Liry a

village in France where the knight

Joffrey dese displayed a cloth claimed

to be Jesus's burial shroud. How he

obtained it and where it was between the

1st century and the 14th century are

unknown. Later theories trace it

speculatively through Adessa and

Constant Constantinol.

>> Constantinople.

>> I can't never say that. Constantinople.

But these links are debated.

Interesting. What does it look like? How

is it displayed?

>> That's how it's displayed.

>> Constantinople

was named after Constantine who was the

first Roman emperor who made Roman

Catholicism the national religion.

Brian.

>> Wow. So, you can go check it out. And

how big is it?

>> Boy, they got that sucker walled off,

huh?

>> I from my impression, Joe, it this was

these this was over the length of

Jesus's body,

>> right?

>> So, it's longer than than certainly I

expected.

>> Well, you can see it's both sides. So,

apparently folded over, right?

>> I wonder what all those markings are.

Those small triangle markings

like what is all that?

>> Like these things.

>> Yeah.

>> One other picture was pointing those

out. They might be the burn marks that

it was saying that there's burn marks on

it.

>> Again, it's

2,000 years old in theory.

>> Just imagine if it's real. That's the

thing. It's like I never want to dismiss

the possibility that it's real because

imagine if it is real. That is

>> I I absolutely I agree with you and I in

my mind it's real and I pray to it

>> you know the and I don't I try not to

worry about whether it's real or I know

that I'm moved and that's that's you

know that that's good enough for me.

>> What led to your conversion to

Christianity? I mean from a guy making

these wild

insane movies.

>> Jamie, can I ask you for some water?

There's

>> water right here. Oh

>> great. Thank you.

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>> How long ago did you convert to

Christianity?

>> Well, I grew up Catholic. Um I was an

alter boy when I was a kid. Um the um I

knew one really great priest in my life

who helped me with my life. Um the I

became a labs Catholic and then when um

the at the tail end of living in in um

in LA in Malibu actually I was was

hugely successful as a screenwriter

of course and and um the um and I was

being interviewed all over the place and

people were stealing mail from my

mailbox and all that [ __ ] and and Um, I

I I should have been overwhelmingly

happy with that, but something was

missing I felt and I couldn't really put

my finger on what that was, but

something was missing in my life. Um,

the and then I got throat cancer. Um,

stage four throat cancer.

um the uh

shortly after we moved back to

Cleveland, you know, the uh from from

Malibu and then the the Cleveland Clinic

and then a surgeon named Marshall Stro

did a surgery that they had never done

in this country that done in Switzerland

um where they took some they took the a

muscle from the left side of your neck

and attach it to your larynx. stage four

was very dicey and and he was very

honest with me about how dicey it would

be and he did it spectacularly and and

here I am at 81. Um the but in the

course of all of that when I was when I

was terrified and and and u and uh and

really frightened from one day to the

other. um I ran across a Jesus um

reading and and partly Naomi's influence

because Naomi also grew up Catholic and

she had a a very the strong um the can a

very strong faith and then then I went

to church a couple of times. Um and I

and I loved the mass

um the the mass itself. Um, and in the

in the course of recovery, there was

about a three-year recovery for for some

time I couldn't speak and then I spoke

like Brando. Um, and then I squeaked.

Um, the um in the course of my recovery

and I did everything I could physically

to help. I I joged and walked and did

all of those things. Um, and I I

recovered. Um, and I felt afterwards

that that the reason I was able to beat

a stage four cancer had to do with my

prayer life. Um, and then I started

reading um, voraciously about Jesus of

Nazareth, the apostles, all all of that,

ancient Jewish history, um, Catholic

history. Um, and some of that really

moved me as well. Um the the um so I

started going regularly to church with

Naomi and then as the bo boys were born

even with with the boys as well. And as

time went by, excuse me,

as time went by um the I also started

having issues with the Catholic Church.

Um, I continued going to the mass

because that that was a very special

thing to me, but I had issues with with

the history of anti-semitism in the

church. Um, the issue is with sexism in

terms of not allowing women to be

priests. Um, the u

issue is with with the the pope making

so-called infallible decisions. And I

shut most of that off. Although in the

process of it,

my Christianity didn't suffer at all but

but sometimes I felt like I was becoming

a kind of an agnostic Catholic. Um the

um and and my faith in Christ and and

even as all of that happened is unfl

flagged. Um I still pray to Jesus very

specifically to Jesus. um the um and he

is continues to be a major important

figure in my life.

>> So your issues were with the

organization as the Catholic Church.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Yes.

>> I I respected Martin Luther's um

revolution because he revolted against

those same kind of issues. But the the u

the um as I said in the the mass

continue to hold me worship is terrific

and I really believe in it. I actually

then the kind of worship that really

moves me is is black spiritual worship

full scale emotional I give myself to

you Jesus kind of worship. um the um and

and I felt I didn't want to that I

didn't want to really switch religions

because I had my basic Christianity, you

know, and that's continues to be

important to me.

>> So, you you felt moved by like Baptist,

>> black Baptist,

>> black Baptist, they the the whole

emotional

>> Yeah.

>> throw up your arms and say, "Okay, here

I am. Take me, Lord." Right.

>> Definitely seems a lot more fun.

>> It's fun.

>> They they look like they're having way

more fun.

>> It's fun. And I be I also have been very

fortunate through the course of my life

to have black friends and and uh to

share the black culture. I was involved

in in the civil rights movement. I had a

shotgun stuck in my belly by a deputy

who'd been indicted for killings and

told to get the [ __ ] out of the county.

Um I I had the good fortune to have

lunch with the Reverend Martin Luther

King.

>> Oh wow.

>> Um the um I knew Stokeley Carmichael.

>> What was that like?

>> Well, it was the most amazing thing. He

was in town because of a of a the death

of a of a minister in a protest and and

the the it was an unheralded appearance

and I think it was partly before um he

became the towering international figure

and the the um the uh he was heading

back to the airport and he couldn't find

couldn't find his ride and I happened to

be right there and I said I can I can

drive you re drive Reverend King just

watching. He said, "Okay." So again, we

we on the way to the airport, he said,

"Are you hungry? I'm hungry. Can we stop

someplace?" I said, "Sure." So we did

and the

what what amazed me about the man is

that he was more interested almost in

hearing about my refugee camp

experiences and what that was like and

how that worked and all of that. He said

he didn't know much about it. Then he

really than he was about he was about

talking about the the civil rights

movement.

>> Wow.

>> Um he was very very moving and a

powerful figure. Um the end then I just

drove him to the airport but the the the

man that was absolutely magnetic, you

know, that and that I felt

>> clearly.

>> Yeah. And then but then I also and when

I was in college, I had a relationship

with a young black woman. Um the um and

and that brought me much closer to the

black culture. I mean I was an ethnic

[ __ ] kid, you know, refugee and I

certainly needed lessons in that whole

cultural area and I got them and then I

sought them out. Um and uh when when

when I was at Rolling Stone, um Huie

Newton was over in Oakland and he would

come over sometimes. Um the uh I think

partly I partly suspect

because the at Rolling Stone we had some

of the most beautiful women in the world

working there. We did have air

conditioning and when it got real hot

they they they didn't wear a top at all.

So what about that spread? So it was

sort of funny.

>> They were topless.

>> They were topless when the when it got

real hot.

>> What year was this? Was this in the 60s?

>> I was at Rolling Stone from 71 to 76.

>> Wild times.

>> I was right right in there. um in the in

the

in the years where where the cultural

revolution was exploding.

>> Yeah.

>> The women's revolution was was

exploding. Um and and to be at Rolling

Stone at that time was like being in the

vortex of all of that. You know, the uh

and and u it was just a crazy time. You

know, the the uh the sexual revolution

was at its absolute height. Um, and the

the uh I've always, as I said to you,

I've always really loved smart, sassy,

sexy women. Um, and the whole office was

filled with them, you know.

>> Oh, I'm sure. What year was the birth

control pill invented?

>> I have no idea. And

>> let me guess. 65,

>> right?

>> 64. Let me guess.

I'm just taking a wild swing. I have no

idea.

>> Approved by the FDA and introduced to

the market in 1960. 68

>> 60 60

>> 1960.

Interesting.

>> Yeah. Well, that had a big factor,

right?

>> Yes. Absolutely.

>> Because before, you know, women were in

a situation where every time they had

sex, they could get pregnant.

>> Absolutely.

>> And then all a sudden,

>> but then you've got this pill that's

[ __ ] with their hormones that we

found out now that women that have been

on it for long periods of time, they

make poor choices in terms of mates and

>> it does a lot of weird stuff. I mean,

>> we're learning we're learning a lot of

weird stuff. Yeah. And also it's very

dangerous for them. Uh a friend of mine,

his daughter died. She was 17 years old.

She was on the birth control pill and

she was smoking cigarettes

>> and she I guess uh smoking cigarettes

and birth control pills for some people

can cause blood clots.

I don't I don't understand why or what,

but that is an issue, right? You're not

supposed to smoke if you're on birth

control. See if that's still the

recommendate. Well, obviously they tell

you not to smoke, period.

But I think there's some potential

complication.

Smoking while taking oral contraceptives

that contain estrogen significantly

increases the risk of severe

cardiovascular events like heart

attacks, strokes, and blood clots. The

risk is particularly high for women over

35. Quitting smoking or using

alternative birth control is highly

recommended.

>> Joan had more fun at Rolling Stone than

any any other time in my life.

>> I bet you did.

>> I just

>> I had Yan Wter in here once. Yeah, I saw

him.

>> It was an interesting conversation.

>> He kept looking at his watch.

>> Well, he was, you know, he was Yan

Winner of 2024 or 2025, not Yan Winner

of 1975.

>> Yes, absolutely.

>> You know, not the Yan Winner that was

the editor when Hunter Thompson was

writing crazy stories,

>> you know, different times, people

change.

>> You are a big Hunter fan and I know

>> and so am I. and I wanted to talk about

him because and I really haven't had a

chance to talk about him specifically.

Um, Hunter really was the cause of my

whole huge success even as a

screenwriter. Let me tell you how um the

I was a reporter at the plane dealer and

I had read Hunter of course um when he

was the National Observer doing those

kinds of pieces from Latin America

before he discovered Gonzo. Um the um

and um and I covered at the plane dealer

I covered at a a Hell's Angel shootout

of a of a bar called Bartois Cafe in

Cleveland. Um and I wrote a story about

it that the Associated Press picked up

and put on their national wire. Um the

and I get a note um shortly afterwards

from Hunter Thompson who had read the

story on the AP wire and wrote me a note

that said

I'm barely paraphrasing. Big [ __ ] now

there are two of us who know how to

write about Hell's Angels. That really

pisses me off. All the best on Dressman.

Well,

>> that must have been a fun thing to get.

>> Oh, man. I was I was as excited about

that as my two sons were to meet Joe

Rogan. They really they really it was

really really something. So, okay. Time

goes by. Um and I get a call from

Rolling Stone when I've heard it first.

I do a couple of freelance pieces for

Rolling Stone. one on Ken State um one

year afterwards and the other I forgot

what the other one was but um then then

I get a call from the managing editor

Paul Scandan who incidentally was the

was was the backbone of the editorial

content. He'd come from the from the

Wall Street Journal and he wanted to

take on the New York Times for Rolling

Stone. So then then they wanted me to do

a freelance piece on narcotics agents um

corrupt narcotics agents. So I go out

there and and I discover that

that Hunter had been after them to hire

me because of that piece and they he

kept saying he's a good guy and all of

that. Um, then when I'm at Rolling

Stone, I write a a book called Charlie

Simpsons Apocalypse.

Um, that Hunter loves by now. we know

each other and and and we're friends and

and and we enjoy each other's company

and the I write this book and Hunter um

gets me as agent who is the top literary

agent in the country and then gets me as

publisher which is Random House to to

publish it and then to to boot blurbs it

when when the book comes out and

somebody a United Artist sees it. Oh,

and then the book becomes a finalist for

the National Book Award. One of the four

finalists. Wow.

>> Okay. So, somebody at United Artist

reads the book, reads because she reads

all the finalists, reads a book, calls

me out of the blue and says, "You've got

really cinematic talent. We have you

thought about writing a script." And I

said, "No, I haven't." And I go to meet

them and they hire me and I write fist.

All of that which led to my success in

the screenplays and in the cinema was

thanks to Hunter.

>> Wow.

>> And the friendship we had was was I

never our friendship was in San

Francisco. He lived in in Woody Creek.

Um the and he would come to town. Our

friendship was in town. Um but we ran a

lot together. We enjoyed each other. We

drank um together. We both like

drinking. Um on occasion we would

good story we would go down San

Francisco was famous for its stripper

bar area I think around Ferrell Street

and stuff and he and I went down there

together there was a famous stripper

show in one of those clubs and one of

the times we get down there he of course

would take acid before every trip down

there I wouldn't do acid but I but I

said I did acid once and wound up

holding me for an hour on the uh

But that was the guy from Cleveland,

right? Which he always let me, you know,

we say, "Oh, you're from [ __ ]

Cleveland." You know anyway, the um I

would I would snort some lines and we go

down there. Um and we were waiting for

about an hour and you know the place is

filled but the girls haven't come out

and Hunter suddenly gets up, hurls his

arms up in the air and says, "Where's

the [ __ ] We want pussy." Right.

I don't make great memories in my life,

you know. Of course I settle him down

all of that. And and then when they

finally started coming very loudly

called said finally finally [ __ ]

he he was a you know larger than life no

doubt colorful figure but but also what

he was and then I discovered this

um and he didn't really share this with

that many people he was very very well

read well well read um the he had a

whole other side that was a very

sensitive

and unhippy like like side. Um I I I saw

it most clearly once. Um I was married

at at the time to a to a former reporter

at the plane dealer who was very very

straight and really rejected the whole

hippie thing and worked in in California

for a small suburban paper. Um, and Dun

had never met her, but had heard her,

and he said, "I'd really like to meet

her." So, we asked him to dinner, and

Hunter came to dinner at the at our

small tiny apartment in Nevada. And and

and my wife at the time, um, the um,

cooked a Hungarian chicken brikage

dinner. Okay. It's Hungary's most famous

meal. Um and um and he sat there with us

and what I discovered was that the boy

from Kentucky was there underneath all

of that firepower and all of the all of

that larger than life behavior. He was

sensitive and quiet and and the and uh

they got along like gang busters, you

know. The and and actually interestingly

when when when I drove him after dinner,

I drove him back to town. Um he for the

ride back he derated bered me because I

was having an affair with what he called

this hippie chick. He said, "You have

this wonderful wife here and you're

[ __ ] around with this hippie chick."

I mean true beration and anger and and

all of that. He had that side as well.

Um yes he did. If we had breakfast it

was at 4 in the afternoon and he he he

and and what he ordered were four

margaritas, six beers. Um and maybe

maybe toast with with scrambled eggs. Um

and and in that sense he he had more

tolerance than anyone that I'd ever

seen. And my tolerance in those days for

booze especially was also very high. Um

but but I'd never seen anybody quite

like him. He had a great sense of humor.

Um the u the as

many many years later.

Um the he wanted me to write the

screenplay for Rum Diary. and I hadn't

seen him in a long time and I had just

met Naomi was of course to whom I've now

been married 32 years and and the um and

he wanted me to go to Aspen so that we

could talk about it. Um, and I called

you on and I said, "Listen, I I head

over heels in blood with this woman. Um,

you know, and uh, Hunter wants me to go

out there, tell me the truth. What kind

of shape is he in?" And yeah, sort of

pauses and he says, "Well, he's good."

Um, and then he's another pause and he

says, "But you know, the Stones were in

Denver and and Mick and Keith decided to

come visit him." So, between gigs, so

they they hire a driver and they drive

up here. Um, and they they have they

they have a terrific time and but

they're about they're there about three

or four hours and they've got a gig that

night. So, they say they say we got to

go, we got a gig, blah blah. And gets

all upset and says, "Well, you just got

here." And they said, "We've been here

three or four hours and stuff." Well, he

continues to be upset. He leaves the

house for they're sitting there and

suddenly they hear gunshots. He had gone

out and shot the tires out on the on the

on the on the stone's car.

So, I never took Naomi there. I was

frightened too frightened.

>> What year was this?

>> Well, let's see. It was in 90 something

four maybe. Maybe he said somewhere

around five, four, five and then three,

three, four, five somewhere.

>> He had been going hard for 30 years by

that point.

>> Yes, he had. or at least

>> and also the the the end for him

>> I've read and heard it was very sad

because and then the the sadness

>> wasn't caused by the drugs it was caused

by booth and he was in Dean's opinion

and he saw him often in Woody Creek and

in his former wife's opinion Sy's

opinion it was the booth that did it the

u he you know his his body began being

old and he needed a wheelchair

Um he could hardly walk the she um drove

him into the wheelchair and at one time

I think in in New Orleans when when they

were visiting Sean Sean Penn um on a

film he actually fell out of the

wheelchair in the middle of traffic and

that she couldn't Anita couldn't really

pick him up and and so they had to get

help and cars are going by and all that

[ __ ] and then and then he also broke

broke a leg when they were visiting

Hawaii at Pahala. So,

um, as he said in his suicide note,

which I thought was the most

gut-wrenching and and but also terrific

suicide note, it was no fun anymore. The

fun was gone. Nothing was fun. No

football, no this, no that. No fun.

>> Yeah. Well, when the body goes

>> Yeah.

>> It's hard to have fun.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's the problem with booze.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Well, the problem with

many drugs, but particularly the problem

with booze, you know, you're breaking

down your body over and over and over

again. And with a guy like Hunter, he

was doing it every day.

>> Yeah.

>> You know,

>> Yeah.

>> There's a famous um piece that this uh

reporter wrote when he went to visit

Hunter and he documented Hunter's drug

and alcohol use throughout the day. you

know, like 6:00 in the morning

>> in the hot tub with champagne. Like

that's the end of the day.

>> Yeah.

>> And then him sleeping and then him

waking up and

>> doing all the drugs and then getting

ready to write. And uh what was the

guy's name who wrote the

there's a a guy who took me and my

friend Greg Fitz Simmons reading it out

and turned it into an EDM song.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Eene Carol, I think.

>> No, no, no.

It says a memoir of Thompson where it

says from

>> right. But the um but the the singer the

song

>> you said who wrote

>> Yes. The guy I'm sorry the guy who wrote

the

the song.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like a electronic dance music song.

We played it before many times. God I

can't believe it's like

>> Beardy Man.

>> Beardy man. Thank you. this guy Beardy

Man put it to music and it's hilarious.

>> Gotta check it out.

>> It's amazing. I mean, it's a tragic

story. Yeah. In a lot of ways, but

>> but in his prime, the writing that he

did was uh in many ways it was the

narration of an era.

>> Yes, it was. And it was genius. you

know, the he there, you know, there was

this thing called the new journalism and

I practiced that and so did people like

AJ Leise and David Elverson and and

Larry El King and but then Dunto took

that and created an entire new genre

that the Gonzo journalism thing was his

and it was it was a kind of humor that

that just knocked you down. Um and it

totally revolutionary. Um and the u

the um Tom Wolf um said who of course

was one of the people the founders of

the new journalism said that he was

today's version of Mark Twain

>> in terms of what he was able to

accomplish. Two books especially I

taught the the fear and Loathing in

Vegas of course and the campaign book

the 72 campaign book which in my mind is

the best political commentary including

all of Teddy White's books.

>> No it's fantastic. Yeah. fear and

Loathing on the campaign trail 72 a.m.

>> And he also had this freedom that was

very different from all these other

reporters because he was a one-time guy.

He was going to go in there and follow

the campaign for the entire time and

then wrote this book about it. But Joe,

these were all stayed um the the the

shoe tie wearing reporters and you turn

this this creature loose on them on the

campaign trail and of course they all

fell in love with him and they did

>> because he was such a free spirit

compared to what their lives were to be

like.

>> Well, imagine you're doing this boring

thing which is following a bunch of

fakers as they're telling you how

they're going to change the country

which you know they're not really going

to do because you've been doing this for

20 years. Absolutely.

>> And then along comes a guy like, "Let's

do acid. Come on, pussies." All a

sudden, you've got this [ __ ] maniac

who's drinking and and saying wild [ __ ]

and writing wild [ __ ] and he doesn't

have to be held to the same standards as

everyone else because he knows it

doesn't matter. If they never have him

back again, it's fine.

>> I'm I'm so sorry that Hunter wasn't here

with Trump's time.

>> Oh my god. because that could have been

[ __ ] wild and hilarious. But there's

also a part of me that says he would

have liked Trump. I know this is heresy

to liberals, you know, who who think

that he's a, you know, that he would he

would absolutely hated him and all of

that, but I'm not certain of that. And I

and I and I think that that certainly in

terms of his style, um, he would have

liked things about him.

>> Well, I think he would have liked the

fact that he's this wild character.

>> Absolutely. completely wild character

that has never existed in all of

presidential politics before. There's

never been anything like him. For good

or for bad, there's never been a guy

like him.

>> Look what he did today. I mean, he's had

a [ __ ] fit with Netanyahu.

>> Yeah.

>> And he said, you know, the uh you're

[ __ ] crazy.

>> Yeah.

>> You would have been in jail except for

me.

>> Um I saved your ass.

What other president for God's sakes has

ever spoken like that? Not only publicly

but to us,

>> right?

>> And in that sense, you know, I'm I'm I'm

proud of being a deplorable. I'm from

Cleveland. You know, the the the I grew

up among poor people and bluecollar

people and he's the first president um

that that didn't talk down but talk

directly to us.

>> Yeah. For good or for bad. I mean

>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. For

>> Yeah. I mean, he's he is who he is,

which is very odd,

>> you know. It's a very it's a very odd

person to be

>> I have a lot of questions in in certain

areas. You know, the ice area, it

bothers me. The uh the um the whole the

whole [ __ ] with the ballroom and all of

that stuff.

>> Well, the ballroom doesn't bother me

that much. Um that's to me trivial

construction. like whatever the the ICE

stuff.

>> What bothers me is we're opening the

door for militarized police on our city

streets. As many people say like, look,

we got to get these immigrants out of

here that are illegal. There's a lot of

criminals in this country. There's a lot

of people that are committing crimes. I

understand that. I understand that

perspective. My perspective is not that

you need to get the criminals out. It's

that it is a very slippery slope when

you give people and they're trained for

seven weeks. They're not trained for

very long. They're they're trained for

much less time than police officers,

much less time than military.

>> And then you have this militar

militarized police force that has no

identification and they're on the

streets.

>> That's a precedent that you might like

it when it's for a cause that you

support, but that could easily be for a

cause that you do not support. That

militarized police force could be going

doortodoor and confiscating guns. that

militarized police force that you could

you could find other ways where a

different ruler could use this precedent