Well, Tom Smith, it is great to have you

here. Our mutual friend Jesse Weber said

I had to talk to you and if

>> these last 30 minutes off camera any

preview, this is going to be a lot of

fun, man. Thanks for coming.

>> No, thank you for having me. It's a

privilege to be here. Honestly,

>> you you Well, it's my pleasure. But it

also looks like, you know, you retired a

few years ago. You look like you still

take those pythons out and beat the [ __ ]

out of someone on the streets of New

York.

>> Not not like just beat the heck out of

the gym. That's about it. That's about

it these days. The other the other part,

let the young kids do that.

>> Yeah. I don't know if they make them

like your generation anymore now. It

seems to be a whole different kind of

culture when you talk to guys who were

in NYPD or in, you know, any of these

major major league like police

departments around the country. like

it's different with the millennials and

Gen Z's kind of coming on board now.

>> It's very different. The mindset's

different, policies are different, laws

are different, you know, and the way the

public looks upon the police are

different. And that's because of the

media,

>> you know, you you get villainized, you

know, in being this kind of figure out

there that that people believe. Back in

the day, and I hate using that term, I'm

sorry, I just did. But when I started,

it was different. you know, cops were

respected uh because of upbringing that

went on with their families,

>> you know, of respect the police. If you

get in trouble, it's on you. It's not

the police fault. It's your fault,

>> you know, and that's the way it was

viewed back then. Whereas today, it's

reversed.

>> You're just picking on me because no,

I'm just enforcing the law. You screwed

up and that's it. But back then, it was

it was easier to be a cop. It's harder

today because of social media, because

of phones, because of videos. You know,

you see cops out there today. And it

drives me crazy when I see videos of

cops getting in fights because they're

allowed to defend themselves. They're

allowed to get in a fight and you're

allowed to win a fight. But you see

these videos and and they kind of step

back a little of just kind of holding on

to people they're fighting, waiting for

someone to show up and help them, right?

>> Whereas the mindset that you you do get

in fights and you're allowed to and

you're allowed to win a fight.

>> And we got told back in the academy in

1990, you're not allowed to lose a fight

under any circumstances. You cannot lose

a fight. So you do everything you can to

win that fight. And that's include using

your weapon

>> if necessary. Sure. You know, there

were, you know, that's very strict and

that's a different level, right? You

know, of of force.

>> Uh, but you were allowed to get in

fights and win fights and and we did a

lot back then. You know, you gota

remember

>> blanket

>> back back then, you know, New York City

was in the midst of a absolute crime

epidemic back in the late 80s, you know,

with crack and the the beginning of the

'9s with, you know, 3,000 homicides, you

know, and 2,800 homicides and 115,000

robberies.

>> 115,000 like per year.

>> Yep. And 88,000 sexual assaults. You

know, that's what was going on in New

York City at the time, and we were

thrown in the middle of it. Go ahead, go

clean it up.

>> What What What do you think caused that?

Because I I I hear about this sometimes,

but I'm a little hazy on what it all

was. Like the 70s and 80s New York, for

some reason, there were just certain

areas that were [ __ ] Mad Max Fury

Road.

>> Absolutely. 100%. And a lot of it was

drugs. You know, in the 70s, it was it

was coke and heroin. and the 80s were

was crack

>> and crack took over New York.

>> It absolutely ravaged it and every part

of crime led back to drugs. So the

robberies happened because of getting

money to go buy drugs. The shootings

happened because of, you know, uh, one

spot wanted another spot. So those

shootings happened. So everything always

came back to the drug epidemic in in New

York. Hey guys, three quick things.

Number one, if you haven't subscribed,

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below. Also, like crack, it was wildfire

because it was also so cheap. So

suddenly you had these drugs that you

know previously if like cocaine was

coming in before that I assume it was a

little bit more focused on where it

might be and now you have crack it's

available to everyone in every [ __ ]

neighborhood.

>> Oh yeah it was five bucks and an

immediate an immediate high you know you

didn't have to wait and sit on a couch

and for it to to hit you know like like

heroin did or cocaine did. It was

immediate and that was, you know, the

the worst part of it, you know, when it

came to what it became and how it just

ruined New York at the time. It ruined

people's lives.

>> So, when you came on to the force in

what 1991?

>> Okay. 1990 right there. You're seeing

the continued effects of that from the

70s and ' 80s. But you grew up in New

York, right?

>> Yeah. And uh Inwood, which is a northern

part of Washington Heights of Manhattan.

>> Okay. So what was it like growing up in

New York and say the 70s back then?

>> Uh it was it was interesting. My dad was

an NYPD detective of

>> course you know. So so you know I grew

up in that world and grew up I mean he

was my hero. He was everything. He was

the prototypical have in your mind Irish

cop. He was 6'3 230 you know white hair.

That's just that's what he was. I'm

picturing Michael Corleone at the

restaurant right now blowing your dad

away.

>> Uh just a big Irish cop and and he was

everything. We we would go to his old

precincts on the way to a Yankee game,

>> you know, and I'm I'm seven, eight years

old hanging out in the 44 squad and the

4-1 squad and meeting all his partners

and and hearing stories. Driving around

the Bronx or Manhattan with my dad was a

history lesson.

Every street was a story. Every alley

was a story.

>> Any stick out ones he would tell you?

>> Oh god. We had I mean there were some in

the Bronx that we would drive past. Oh,

we had a triple homicide in that hotel

and and that happened. You know, just

particulars about I forget, but oh, we

would drive any street in the Bronx.

Pick one. There'd be a story that I

would hear. So that was just more of

fuel in me to want to just follow in

what he did. Uh, it intrigued me. It

just it it's all I ever want to do. We

would sit and watch the news at six

o'clock. Now, back back then, the 6:00

news was like a TV show that you had no

choice. You sat on the couch and you

watched the news. And I did that every

night with my dad every night to see

what was going on in the city, the

sports, whatever it was. That was part

of the day, part of the night. So, if

there was a story that came out of of a

murder or something, I would literally

ask my dad, "Okay, how would you do it?"

I'm I'm 8 n 10 years old. Okay, how

would you do that case? Okay, you'd

start with this and you'd start with

that. So, I grew up learning how to do

an investigation when I was a kid. How

to start it, where it would go, who do

you talk to. And that's what I mean. He

was so great to be around knowing what I

was going to end up doing in my life,

>> obviously. I mean, that's like you're

getting an education way earlier than

everyone else.

>> But like, so he started in a precinct

like everyone else and then became a

detective. Yes. And so would he did he

have was he a specific unit as a

detective or did he do pretty

>> Yeah, he was he started in the 34 which

is in Washington Heights uh as a cop in

1950 and then sometime in the 60s he got

promoted to detective which was not

not many of them in the city at the

time.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. The detectives were a I mean a

revered which it still is, don't get me

wrong, but back then that was a big deal

being an NYPD detective in the 60s and

70s. uh to get your shoulder. Then he

even got promoted from there to second

grade, which was unheard of back then.

So he did, you know, he did narcotics,

he did, uh homicide, he did major case,

uh and then he retired out of the Bronx

DA's office.

>> What's the most important thing that

goes into being a great detective other

than being able to spot clues? Like I'm

not trying to be too obvious, but you

know,

>> you know what I tell people? Well, I I

speak at the NYPD Academy a lot in a

criminal investigation course. I speak

in colleges and I tell young detectives

all the time, if there's one thing that

you have to do and have to learn is your

communication skills.

>> If you can't talk to people, you're not

going to be successful. If you can't

have a dialogue and understand them and

understand what you want to say and get

what where they are in their lives,

you're not going to be successful. You

should be able to as a detective talk to

the CEO of the biggest company in New

York or the worst crackhead sitting on a

corner.

>> What ties them both together besides the

fact they're both humans and communicate

>> humans. Humanity. And just treat them

with respect no matter who they are. You

know, I never went into an interrogation

or an interview disrespecting someone

>> because it's not going to work. You

know, you're not going to get what you

want if you walk in. Now, were there

interviews and interrogations that had

to be done a certain way because of an

imminent thing going on? Yes, without a

doubt. But the disrespect part, people

will pick up on. Criminals even know,

they know the game. They know you're

there to do a job and you need some

information. All right? To personally

disrespect them, they're going to shut

down. So, I never went that route. I

went towards what I needed and a lot of

times it worked.

It's interesting because people always

hear about like the good cop bad cop

routine.

>> That is a thing that that that is

certainly a thing and that does work at

times. You know, does every situation

work with that? No. But me and one of my

old partners, uh, Carlos Perez, who was

still still a dear friend of mine, uh,

we were together in narcotics and then

in a robbery squad together. He's still,

like I said, very close to me. We would

do that quite often.

And we would go back and I was usually

the good cop a lot.

>> I was going to say

>> uh because it just it fit. You don't

want to you don't want to act like

something you're not. You know, could I

be the bad guy? Yeah.

>> You know, there were times that that

that was necessary. But a lot of times

when he would start off on a rant, I

wouldn't say anything. I just sit there.

How do you So if you go into an

interrogation though and

well I guess my first question is how do

you suspend

your belief in the outcome? And what I

mean by that is if you walk in there and

you're already thinking say this person

who might be a suspect did it.

>> How do you suspend that to actually

determine if they did?

>> That's a great point. And you should

never walk into a situation with a

predetermined thought in your head. You

can't. You have to just keep everything

open

>> because you don't know what that

person's going to say. So, you have to

keep an open mind because if you if you

have a closed mind of this person did

it, that's the only person I'm going to

think of. You're not going to listen to

what they're saying,

>> right?

>> Because you already have it in your head

what they should say. So, you're not

going to actually listen to what they

are saying, and that can skew an

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When I do this job, it's easy because

it's just like a conversation that goes

on YouTube. There's not life and death

stakes to it. It's not, you know,

someone going to a courtroom, you know,

to

>> plead for their life or something like

that afterwards. But in your business,

>> when you if you can even call it a

business, but in in your line of work

when you go to do that, these are the

highest stakes. M. So, how do you when

you're sitting in an interrogation room

stay present, listening to what they're

saying and not think about what you want

to say next or where you want it to go.

>> You know what? It's it's experience. You

know, it just it builds up to that,

Julian. You get to a point where you get

good at it.

>> You you become honed in on the skills

that you have and you you know, you

bring those out. uh when you first start

off, you're thinking like, you know,

you're a little nervous. You don't want

to say the wrong thing. You don't want

to lead something, you know, or miss

something. But then as you do it more

and more, you you learn how to just

listen, focus, get everything else out

of your mind and just listen to what

this person's saying. When you're trying

to get a confession is different than

like solving a crime. It's different

than getting information. Each interview

or interrogation has a different kind of

mindset to it depending on what your

goal is. So there's different questions

and different mannerisms you would go

through.

>> One of the things, you know, when when I

was trying to get a confession from

someone,

>> I would never walk in there talking

about the case. My thing, I would walk

in talk about sports for 20 minutes

and not even talk about why we were

there. I would get in and immediately

start with a joke like, "All right,

Yankee fan or my fan. You're a Met fan.

I ain't talking to you." And they go,

"Oh, no. I like the Yankee. Okay, cool."

And I would talk about the game before

the game that night, their roster,

whatever, for 15, 20 minutes.

>> How often did they know what you were

doing?

>> Not a lot. Because you have to remember

they're there thinking they're getting

ready for what they think is coming.

>> So now I come in with the complete

opposite effect and it catches them off

guard and it gets them like very

relaxed. We'll start laughing and then I

would never just jump into why we're

there. It'd be like we talk about the

Yankees. I go listen, let's just get

this out of the way while we're here.

You know, you know why we're here. Let's

just let's just kind of just get this

out of the way and we'll go back to

having a good time laughing and joking

about the Yankees. The other night,

where were you? And just lead it right

into that.

>> That is a little bit of a left turn

right there, but I see what you're

saying.

>> Well, it wouldn't be immediate. Like I

said, it would be 15 minutes or so into

it and then just go, hey, you know what?

I'm really having a good time with you,

but

>> I do have to do my job, right?

>> You know, I do have to commercial,

right? And then by that time a lot of

times they were like okay uh this is

what happened this where it was okay

cool thanks man.

>> And then do you get up and say gotcha.

>> Oh outside. Yeah.

>> You know you get a high five from you

know your partner like oh awesome. You

know

>> wow.

>> Uh

>> you know there there were a couple of

times that I would talk about you know

basketball or whatever. And there was

one in particular

have this individual in the back of a

car go up to him, start talking about a

basketball tournament that he was at,

blah blah blah. And then out of nowhere,

he just went, "Well, you want to know

how I was going to do something?" "Yeah,

sure. What do you got?" And he would lay

out like a plan of of what he was going

to do that night with with a crime that

he was planning. And I go, "Okay,

thanks, man." What is that

psychologically that makes someone get

right there? Is it is it part of like

their criminal makeup that they're they

almost want to I don't know if this is

the right word, but like boast about

>> Yes.

>> They want to be famous. They want to

listen. You know, you've heard it

probably before. Serial killers aren't

famous until they get caught.

>> Yeah. They're a different I wasn't

>> even but they don't you know you're not

famous until you get caught. So, if

you're if you have that mentality of

wanting to be famous, you're not going

to be until you get your story out

there.

>> You said your dad investigated narcotics

when he was

>> So, did he do Frank Lucas?

>> He knew Nikki Barnes.

>> Oh, all right. Well, that's I mean,

that's

>> He knew he used to I I knew who Nikki

Barnes was before some of the New York

Yankees,

>> honestly. I mean, I I knew the name

Nicki Barnes when I was a a kid before I

really realized what Nikki Barn, you

know, who he was.

>> For people out there who don't know, can

you explain?

>> Nikki Barnes was Frank Lucas and Nikki

Barnes were like the two biggest drug

dealers in Harlem at the time in the in

the 70s. And although they kind of knew

each other and were friends, they really

weren't, but they were but they weren't,

you know, kind of relationship. Uh, and

then each of them got arrested. Uh,

Nikki, I think, flipped pretty quick

when he got grabbed about some things.

Uh, but my dad used to used to see him

all the time and he told one story. He'd

always tell me a story about Nikki where

he'd see him and he always said that

Nikki Barnes was very intelligent like

Frank Lucas was. You know, you know

what? And correct me if I'm wrong here,

Tom. You usually don't get to top spot

in a criminal crazy syndicate

organization if you are not re as as

crazy as that sounds sometimes if you're

not really smart.

>> You're right. You're absolutely right.

You know, you have to be articulate. You

have to plan right. You have to, you

know, all that stuff. And he always said

he was very much. And he would tell him

all the time like, "Nikki, what are you

doing this for? You know, you have, you

know, you're smart. You could do this.

You could have a business." And my dad

would always say, Nikki always Nikki

Barnes always looked to him, "Detective

Smith, it ain't about the drugs. It

ain't about the money. It's about the

power. I can get and do anything I want

in this city."

Now, what do you say to that? Okay.

I mean, I guess my retort would be like

looking at the biggest example maybe of

all time in New York, bigger than Nikki

Barnes. You think Lucky Luchiano, right?

I mean, part of the skyline went up with

his [ __ ] Okay. Right.

>> And that you're talking about a guy who

was totally not educated in school. I

don't think he finished eighth grade.

>> Was raised in in basically the Italian

ghetto

>> who

>> to the average person if they went to

talk to him at first would assume he's

dumb, which is probably a a very good

asset for a guy like that because he was

brilliant and he ended up being this,

you know, sadistic mobster to use that

brilliance. But I always looked at guys

like that or even like a more quiet,

subtle guy like a Carlo Gambino, another

legendary infamous mobster. I looked at

guys like that and I said they could

have had that same power being the CEO

of a Fortune 10 company.

>> John Gotti.

>> Yeah.

>> John Gotti. You know, he used John Gotti

was so smart.

>> Yes. Ruthless gangster. Yep.

>> Murderer. The whole nine yards. But John

Gotti used his celebrity

>> to his advantage.

>> He became more of a celebrity in the 90s

than he was a mob guy.

>> You know, he's on he's on the cover of

magazines.

>> He's getting interviewed on shows. That

was unheard of

>> in that world.

>> You know, no mob boss sat down for an

interview or walking down the street

talking to a reporter. No one did that,

you know. But he had this this aura

about him. I mean, he would have he

would have a Fourth of July fireworks

show

>> that the NYPD would send a detail to.

>> That's, you know, that's what Right.

Exactly. That's what he was.

>> And uh just getting to your point, you

know, powers is everything.

>> New York City is my favorite city in the

world. I'm definitely biased, but it's

this amazing place where so much of the

world has come together and it's got a

lot of symbolism for like America itself

for good reasons and bad reasons.

>> But the word power of course is

something that comes to mind when you

look at a skyline like that and take in

like everything that happens here.

>> What you're talking about in these

examples though are people who found

that power through criminality. On the

other end, there are people, I alluded

to the example, there are people who

find that power in business. There are

people who find that power maybe getting

to the top of the political sphere,

maybe come up through the police ranks

even along the way or something like

that. Like

>> to me though, it's a complicated thing

to kind of describe because power can be

found in all different ways. Ways that

are viewed as on the wrong side of the

law and ways that are viewed as on the

right side of the law. But the lines

between what is right and what is wrong.

I'm not talking drugs or something

obvious, but the lines between what is

right and what is wrong to get power can

sometimes get really blurred. Like I

guess what I'm asking is do you

sometimes look at the guys like the

Nikki Barnes or the Lucky Lieutenant or

you know guys that that were powerful

that you were arrested and then look at

people on the right side of the law who

are powerful and maybe you know you

couldn't pull up a crime sheet on them

right now but you go they're just as

bad.

>> Yeah. Yeah. because it's a different

it's I understand one and you are on

target 100%. And it's just a different

way of going at something, you know, of

criminality. I'm going to do it this way

through violence, through intimidation.

Whereas powerful in in the business

world is being smart, being articulate,

being uh you know knowing your field

where you can tap into what's going to

strengthen you. But it all you know it

comes back to to understanding having a

target, having what you want in your

kind of crosshairs and where you are,

you know, in that in life is going to

get you there.

>> Yeah. Human nature never changes either.

You know, we get overall statistically

more civilized as a society. Not to say

we don't still have our problems,

>> but you know, it's not like the Middle

Ages or something with people just

[ __ ] swinging swords at each other

over a beer,

>> but you know, like I was recently

watching Game of Thrones for the first

time. D finally got me to do it. And the

moral ambiguities that you see in that,

this is supposed to be, you know, 2,000

years ago in a fake world or whatever,

but the moral ambiguities, I started to

realize like what seemed crazy, like

what the [ __ ] are they doing?

>> I started to think about it in today's

times. I'm like, okay, we wouldn't do

this or that, but we would do this or

that. And that's the same pattern,

right, as that thing right there. So,

it's just different actions,

>> right? Whether it be your dad's era or

your era, do things ever really change

or is it just the media?

>> It's just it's just the media and it's

just doing it a different way. It's just

having a different game plan for the

same game.

>> That's all it is. Uh and how you get to

your objective a certain way.

>> You know, there was,

>> you know, back then they didn't have the

technology that we had. We certainly

don't have the technology they have

today, right?

>> So, you're still going after the same

criminals, same crimes. you just have

different resources and ways to do it

today.

>> How did it like So, what let's talk

about like where you started before we

get to when you became a detective. That

was a nice preview there. But you you

started as a regular cop, right?

>> Yep. And

>> so doing the beat cop thing.

>> Yep. And you uh graduated the academy,

was assigned to the 30th precinct, which

is up in the west side of Harlem in

Washington Heights, which in 1990 1991

was one of the busiest precincts in the

city. M

>> uh we had one square mile. That's what

we were. And in one year, I think it was

1993,

in one square mile had 88 homicides.

That's what it was like.

>> In one square mile.

>> Yep. That's what it was like. You know,

because you got to remember in the early

90s, Washington Heights was the drug

capital of the Northeast. the I 95

corridor from the south came right into

Washington Heights and that's where all

the tremendous amount of kilos of

cocaine were delivered and then

dispersed from there.

>> Where was it coming from usually

>> down south Florida? Yeah.

>> It would come from, you know, some of

the South American countries into Miami

and then up uh up that 95 corridor

>> up to New York and then dispersed from

there into the Northeast, New England.

Everything came out of Washington

Heights.

>> Interesting alliances though too, right?

Because it's not necessarily like you it

may start with Pablo Escobar, but it may

end up with like the Crips selling it.

>> Oh yeah. I mean it was just I mean they

were so organized. It was you know it

was an organized crime. Uh just the way

they they had they had a boss, they had

lieutenants, they had runners, they had

enforcers. Same exact way. And it was a

business. It was 100% business and how

they did it, you know. So when we were

up there, you know, in in the three 0,

like I said, was was

drugs, guns, robberies. That's what the

third 30th person was at the time. And

we were busy every night. And I did four

to 12s. So we were rolling every single

night.

>> So you're just doing patrols and stuff?

>> Yeah. Up until 1994.

Uh, and then I got into the anti-rime

unit.

>> Okay. Before we get there on these

patrols though, because this is wild,

this is only a one

>> square mile neighborhood with all this

[ __ ] going on. So you you know every

alleyway like the back of your hand

probably within a week.

>> You know,

>> when you have that much of a

crimeinfested area to where so many

people that live there are are quite

literally just mathematically maybe in

on the crime. How do you make

relationships with the community who's

not in on the crime?

>> You know what? Even with the criminals,

you had a relationship. It was very odd.

We had a very odd relationship with the

bad guys. They knew we had a job to do.

We knew who they were. Just don't do it

in front of us.

You know, don't don't disrespect us and

do doing your deals in front of us.

Don't hang out in the corner. Don't

invite the problems. Don't do it.

>> And we would a lot of times roll up to a

corner and they turn around and see us

and they didn't move quick enough and

they were apologized to us. All right.

Sorry. and they'd walk because they it

was a weird dynamic up there at that

time, but a lot of I just had this

conversation with someone uh not too

long ago. A lot of the problems that

happened there weren't from the people

that were there. They were people that

were coming into that neighborhood to

buy drugs, to take over a drug spot, to

rob a drug spot weren't people from the

neighborhood. They weren't robbing each

other. It was other people that were

coming in that were causing these

problems. So, a lot of the really

violent stuff that was going on was from

outside people that didn't live there.

You know, the people that lived there

were stuck. You know, they weren't going

anywhere. And those are the ones you you

concentrated on helping and not getting

in the middle of this, you know, and and

playing with the kids on the corner,

throwing a football around with them and

maybe keeping them away from, you know,

what maybe their destiny was, you know,

in in keeping them away from the drug

trade because you know it. What do you

see? nice cars, jewelry, watches, girls,

the whole all of that is all wrapped up

into a kid watching it. And you did what

you could to try to keep them away from

that. Did we sometimes? Sure. You know,

but a lot of times they just fell into

it because there was nothing else to do.

>> How do you not get cynical throwing a

football around with a kid knowing, you

know, let's say throw around 10

footballs with 10 kids over a 10day

period, you know, eight of them are

[ __ ]

>> Right. Right. Yeah. It's it's hard. Uh

but you have to you have to keep a

mindset of of what you're there for.

Yeah, you're there to, you know, keep

everyone safe and whatever, but you also

have to be realistic into you only have

so much time or effort to put into

trying to save. You can't save everyone.

Like I said, some people are just

destined to fall into that uh of who

their bigger influences were other than

us. Yeah, I'm pretty obsessed in all

different capacities with the idea of

like the environment that you are born

into and how that affects everything you

do. Like,

>> you know, I'm always open to changing my

mind on stuff, but I I don't I don't

think anyone's born evil or born bad.

There might be some people with a few

things in their DNA that might make it

easier to get there. I could see that

for sure.

>> I I think even scientifically that's

backed. But like born that way, no.

>> Mhm. Which means that it's not to take

away the decisions they make as not

being their fault or something like

that, but people get put in an

environment and then they have decisions

to make. And some environments create

way more emphasis on good decisions

being made and other environments create

way more emphasis on bad decisions being

made.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, you know, it's just so hard

whenever I have a conversation with

someone like you who I kind of had to

see that like evolve, right? You see a

three-year-old and and then he's six,

he's still nice. He's nine, he's still

nice. 11, now he's not going to school

anymore. 13, he's on the corner. And

it's like, what other opportunities did

he have? You know, it's not to say

>> therefore it's okay that he's doing

that. But it is to say like, put

yourself in their shoes. Like, did did

you ever wonder that like you had an

amazing dad. You had all these police

officers to look up to, people who were

trying to do the the right things and

keep the streets clean. So, you had like

a great environment like that, but do

you ever think like, damn, if I had this

environment, I might I might be that,

too.

>> Oh, sure. Oh, god. Yeah. You know, and

that's why when you when you look at

stories in sports, I'm a huge sports

guy, if you didn't notice. Uh,

>> couldn't tell.

>> So, when you hear these stories about,

you know, these these top level athletes

getting into college, getting into pros,

who came from that, that's why it's such

a successful story. Yes. And it's such a

needed story that has to get out there

to the different generations that are

still stuck there. You can do it. How

many athletes have you heard say, "If I

could get out of here, you can too." You

just have to have the will to do it. And

you have to you have to be strong. It is

not hard or is very hard, I should say,

to tell the influence in your life, "No,

I'm doing this."

>> That's hard to do.

>> It's very hard.

>> That's very hard to do. But when you

hear these athletes and what they went

through, they did that. No, I'm not

hanging out in the corner. I got to go

to the gym,

>> right?

>> I'm not going to that party. I have

practice.

>> I don't want to take away from that at

all. I'm a huge sports guy myself and I

love those stories. I'm right there with

you. And I don't want to take away from

the guys who successfully do that and

work their ass off and get there. The

reality is when it comes to like being a

pro alete or something, the percentage

of people that make it

>> is so minuscule and it is a combination

of things including god-given talent and

you know like I wasn't born 6' n you

know what I mean? I'm 6'1. I ain't going

to be a [ __ ] power forward.

>> And so what sometimes I'm just like

>> how do we fix the system so that in

places like that the only hope isn't

just like oh let's go be an athlete.

like how do we fix the system so that

there's there's hope to be able to see

people make it out in in doing all

different pursuits, not one thing, just

like a million things. Again, not to

take away from athletes, but you know,

create more diversity with that. What

would you do to be able to fix those

generational cycles if you were in

charge?

>> Schools, education,

>> absolutely. That's where it starts.

>> But how would you fix that? Because we

[ __ ] it up for so long.

>> I know. And it's hard. And and like you

said, you're trying to you're trying to

fix something that's decades and decades

and decades old, but you have to give it

a shot into

school after school programs, coaches,

you know, get these community leaders to

be a coach somewhere doing a sport or an

activity, whatever it might be. But you

have to tap into

kids are a flat clean slate. You can go

anywhere with them. So, it's a matter of

of that teacher or that coach going,

"What do you like?"

>> Not everyone can play sports. Got it.

What else do you like?

>> What do you like? I love

>> Right. What else do you like? Oh, I love

I You know, I can sing. Cool. This is

who I'm hooking you up with down the

road. And you have to just have a

network of different things that kids

can tap into in a community. Don't just

focus on sports because like you said

it's about I think it's it's two or

three percent that get into professional

sports. 7% I think get into college

which if you look at the grand schema is

nothing with the amount of athletes that

are out there

>> and I think I think it's even actually

way lower.

>> It might be it might be they they might

have been uh you know older stats that

I'm coming up with but

>> but you can't just stick to that. Like I

said I can sing. I can draw. I nowadays

I'm a computer geek on this. You have to

have people who are available to get

that person into the right spot.

>> Yeah. I think we have to find in in all

schools anywhere. I think we have to

find a better balance between like

structure of this other day goes with

periods and classes and same [ __ ]

thing and also like kids finding their

interests to like tap into their

creativity whatever that might be. that

could their creativity could be math or

it could be music. But like being able

at an early age to be like, I want to do

this and it's not just [ __ ] off or

something like that. You know what I

mean? Like

>> there has to be a way for us to blend

those systems educationally so that you

know there's a level of fun

>> associated with education. Think about

what you just said and think about the

way schools are are set up. You're 18

years old,

>> graduating high school. before someone

says, "Hey, what do you want to do in

college?" No, that's crazy. And most of

the time, a lot of kids get into college

and start a major and change it because

their brain starts to kick in about what

they can do,

>> you know, where why are you starting

that conversation about what interests

you and what do you want to do with your

life when you're 18 and not 10? And I'll

even go one level up and say I think

it's okay if a kid hasn't figured it out

when he's 18. But to have what you're

saying is brilliant because it's like

get the conversation started because as

they learn more and their ideas change

and thoughts of the world change, they

have they've already had a broader scope

of thinking about things they might want

to do. Absolutely. Where the

possibilities for sure. But, you know,

do you think it it's fair to say that a

lot of our tax dollars kind of get

wasted? You think?

>> I mean, it's it's it's basically

>> Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's

it's

we just laid out right here a great game

plan for a community or city and they

don't and they're just focus on other

garbage where, you know, because kids

get ignored because why? They're easy to

ignore. Why? Because they don't speak

up.

>> So they're easy to get pushed to the

side. No, we're gonna we're gonna do

these projects.

>> They don't vote.

>> We're and that too, right?

>> And they don't matter, you know. And

these politicians can sit up on stage in

front of a camera go, "Oh, we care about

this. We care." No, you don't.

>> If you did, you change it. The New York

City educational system has been the

same since God knows when.

>> Nothing's changed. And then they wonder

why things are a mess. Oh, why is why

can't you know a a kid in high school

read? Okay. would you what did he do his

whole life in the same education system?

>> Y

>> right ask yourself that question. Don't

ask other people why they're failing.

Ask yourself, ask your administration.

Ask school ch uh counselor uh

chancellors. Ask them what are you

doing? Nothing's changed because it's

easy to push that aside and go to other

things.

>> I unfortunately before I say this feel

like we don't live in a world where they

would make this possible. But you know

for me I I always think like the kids

and starting there that's the future of

any country and what it is and that's

something I would be thrilled to invest

in. So

>> if I had to pay a little higher taxes

and I knew exactly me, you all of us

knew exactly where that money was going

in education such that let me just start

at high level. We could create real

incentive programs, not like, you know,

teachers union type whatever, but real

incentive programs for teachers to

actually make good money based on the

performance of their kids where they

couldn't game the system and stuff like

that in all different schools around the

country, across our public schools.

>> I would be perfectly down to pay more in

my taxes for that because guess what? My

kids will benefit from it. Your kids

will benefit from it. If I had had that,

I would have benefited from it too,

right?

>> You know what I mean? But that requires

like also like a social collective like

across us as a society all agreeing that

this is a huge issue which I don't

>> you know I don't understand why not all

of us will look at that.

>> And then you get into big companies

wanting to I mean let's just use a term

that we all know in this world that

we're in sponsors. Then you get big

companies to sponsor programs. All

right. I'm not gonna completely fund it

because someone will screw it up. But I

will sponsor X amount towards this,

right?

>> X amount towards that. And you get these

enormous billion-dollar companies to

sponsor a program. What does that do?

>> It makes it legitimate. You know where

the money's going

>> and more people will and hey, I like

that idea. Oh, they're involved in it.

Okay, I'll put myself out there to be a

coach, be a teacher, be this, be that.

The other pattern we always talk about

with tough neighborhoods like the one

you were policing is that you have

consistent statistics of them being

single parent households all the time.

>> And this is where it's like kind of a

catch 22 for guys like you because you

know your job is to enforce the law.

>> But in enforcing the law naturally, you

know, if dads are committing crimes and

stuff and then they go away for a long

time, the kid now only has the mom at

the house. A lot of the moms have to

sacrifice and work two, three jobs just

to pay the bills and then they're not

around and the pattern kind of continues

and this has happened over and over.

What do we do about that? Cuz it's not

like you can just say, "Well, because

you're a father, you don't have to go to

prison." But at the same time, it's like

recreating it, you know?

>> Yep. And you know what? Why, like we

just said, and we just stated, programs

for kids, why make it just kids? Make it

adults. What do you like to do, man? you

know, go to these corners where guys are

just hanging out in parks. What What do

you like to do? This can't be what you

like doing. Okay? You can't wake up in

the morning, go, I'm going to put on the

same crap I put on last night, okay?

Same clothes, and go hang out with the

same people I do every day, and just

stand there. You can't like that. All

right. What do you like to do? Well, I'm

a great drawer. Then what are you doing?

and set up again programs that are

sponsored by these companies to get

these fathers, these men into positions

that they can be a role model, that they

can add to their family,

>> support them, and have their kid look at

their dad the way I did.

>> I mean, what's wrong with with putting

programs out there to young adults or

adults? Why not?

>> Nothing. I Yeah, I I agree. I think

whenever you leave any part of society

ignored, it fers into cancer very

quickly.

>> No doubt. Absolutely.

>> And we do that all the time with all

groups of people. The people that don't

get ignored are whoever is going to be

the most important voting block for the

next election.

>> Yep. Because that's all politicians care

about is the next election.

>> That's right. That's it. And like

politicians are about some number that

can be put in a commercial for some

Tuesday in November for them to be able

be able to say that this statistic did

that bop.

>> But like what's the old quote like 80%

of statistics are statistical [ __ ]

or something like that. You know, like

you can make numbers do whatever they

want and have a win here. You know,

maybe homicides go way down, but don't

pay attention to the fact sexual

assaults went way up,

>> right? You know,

>> you know, there there's

I've said this before, knowing a problem

when you're a politician, knowing the

problem is easy. Understanding the

problem is what's important.

>> Knowing it's easy,

>> you know, because if you understand

something, you want to learn more about

it and you want to fix it if it's broke

or keep going in the right direction if

you understand it. If you just stand up

there and go and you hear politicians

say it all the time. Oh, I know that's a

problem. Okay, great. What's your

understanding of the problem? Well,

we're not doing ABCD. That's

understanding it. To just say, "Yeah, I

know there's a problem." And they won't

have an answer to that. That's why that

mindset has to change of just knowing

something and understanding it and

putting your your power the you know who

you are in politics and the resources

that you have into fixing that problem.

How do you

like when you were when you were telling

me the first four years when you were

doing patrols and going through the

neighborhood and you know you had to

make relationships with everyone like

you said including the criminals and it

would be like

>> you'd say to them

>> all right just don't do it in front of

me or something like that. Was part of

that also because you weren't the

detective so it wasn't your job to make

the case on them. your job was to police

the day-to-day safety of the of the

actual

>> a little bit and you know it was a

respect thing and that's what it was

back then like you asked in the

beginning of this the difference between

like now and then.

>> Yeah,

>> that was a major respect thing of don't

stand on a corner, don't make me move

you, don't get me out of my car, you

know, have enough respect of just okay,

hey, I'll I'll I'll move for now. Come

back in 10 minutes. I don't care.

>> Just don't show me up and do that. And I

think, you know,

the drug trade back then was so big that

there weren't a lot of stuff on the

street going on. There was it was mostly

inside because there was a lot of

weight. It was major weight that was

going on in that neighborhood. And it

wasn't to blow it off or just, okay,

just don't do it in front of me. It was

we all know what's going on,

you know, and you had narcotics in the

area, you had street crime in the area,

and you wanted to try to make their job

a little easier,

>> you know, in what they were doing as

well. So, it all kind of came together,

>> right? But then in '94, what was what

was the name of the first unit you were

in again? anti-rime unit which was which

was a plane close unit within the

precinct and we dealt with all the

robberies, robbery patterns, shots fired

jobs, gun runs, all that is we responded

to all those

>> gun runs.

>> Yeah. So if there was a 911 call of

someone with a gun, we would always go

first and patrol would know when we were

working. So they would wait till we got

on the scene because we had unmarked

cars. We were in plane clothes. Uh you

know, we had taxi cabs, you know, all

that. Livery cabs, mostly livery cabs up

where we worked that were decked out

looking like a livery cab, but it was

us.

>> It was halfway undercover work.

>> Mhm.

>> Did you get any extra training for that

or was this just like

>> It was experience. It was, you know,

guys went into anti-rime

after, you know, you made a lot of

arrests or you were involved in, you

know, different situations. You know, in

'93, I was involved in a a very large

big shootout.

>> Oh, what happened?

>> So, after that, a couple of about a year

after that, I went into anti-rime.

>> What happened in 93? Uh we were on

patrol and uh came across a robbery crew

that robbed a supermarket while we were

sitting across the street waiting for

one of our other cops to come out of the

bank cash check and a couple people ran

up to the car was like hey something's

going on across the street in the

supermarket. Now

I'll preface it with this the guys in

the supermarket used to chase people for

like stealing an apple. So when when

people would come up to us and go, "Hey,

there something's going on." You were

like, "Okay." Like what? So we went

down, grabbed one of the guys who was

running back up the street, grabbed him,

was like, "Hey, what's up?" He's like,

"There's three guys. They all got guns.

They tied the the security guard up.

They're coming up 144 Street in a cab.

They just carjacked."

>> Whoa.

>> Okay. So, we pull up and meet them like

headon right at the intersection. So,

they lean out of the car. They start

shooting at us. Uh we shot back a little

at that point, but then the car started

going north on Broadway and one of the

officers who was in the bank cashing his

check ran out, stopped the car. They

leaned out of the car and shot him. He

got shot in the leg about 10 ft from me.

And then we had a just gun battle with

them in the backseat of the car and us

in the rear part of the car

>> in the middle of New York City

>> at one o'clock in the afternoon on a

Friday on 145th Street in Broadway.

>> All right, before I get to what that's

like, like, you know, this isn't like

some [ __ ] desert or something like

that or a war zone. This is the middle

of a functioning United States city.

when when you you don't have much time

to react here because suddenly it goes

from not someone just stealing an apple

to like oh this is this is legit. You're

in the car going go and then pretty soon

the guns are out and you're shooting.

You hadn't been involved in something

like this before to that point. N

>> all right so and you're still young you

know on Yeah. Three years.

>> What are you 24?

>> Mhm.

>> Okay. So you're young.

>> What does your mind slow down? Do you

freeze? Like what what happens?

>> You know what? uh the training that you

get kicks in and it's it's wild how much

you don't think. It's just strictly, you

know, uh your training instincts just

kick in immediately of what you were

taught. Get behind something, you know,

uh cover where you are, get the cop

who's injured out of there, cover for

him. The problem at the time was we were

having a a gun battle with three guys in

a car and we had 38s. We didn't even

have nines yet. So, we had six shots

dealing with three guys that we were

having a gun battle with.

>> What did they have again over there?

They had one had a nine,

a 357,

and I think a I think a 44 or another or

or another 357, something like that, is

what they had.

>> And we had our little 38s.

So the whole notion, the one thing

that's different and and it was very

it's a very odd situation to go through

because

the stuff you see on TV and in the

movies of everything slowing down

actually happens.

>> It's like that.

>> It's very weird. You know, we had I

think there were 40some shots fired

>> in that situation that

>> in an intersection right here basic.

Whoa. So I heard maybe two of the shots

and the rest were like like you're in a

pillow just like whoop whoop whoop. So

the whole counting your rounds thing

that that it's not happening.

>> Does it lit like I I don't mean to over

like simplify this but is it literally

somewhat like you're you're moving like

>> oh it's slow motion. Yeah.

>> It's it was very it was just bizarre.

You know how it was. Now we go through

this. They get out of the car. I start

running now. A kind of running gun and

battle happens and I chase one guy down

the subway. The one of the three guys

who wasn't shot. I get him down the

subway. Now I could run. You know, I

>> You look like you can still run.

>> I could We'll see. Uh but

>> we'll go down Park Avenue after this.

>> But I could run and and running up

Broadway after him felt like I was in

quicksand.

Like I couldn't run. It was just like

forced. I was probably moving as quick

as I always did, but the feeling of it

was like I was running in in quicksand.

>> Like your legs are heavy,

>> just not moving,

>> but you're getting to where you need to

get to. And then we get down the subway,

get him down there, tackle him, handcuff

him, and as soon as I handcuffed him,

all the time kicked in again.

>> Wait a second. So you got him right down

in this was the one that wasn't shot,

>> right?

>> You caught You go down into the subway

in the middle of all the [ __ ] people.

Mhm.

>> What street is this approximately?

>> 145th in Broadway.

>> Okay. Yeah. It's a Friday afternoon.

There's a lot of people around, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And you just like nail him.

>> Yeah.

>> From behind.

>> I kind of Yeah. He got down to the

bottom and I kind of jumped a couple of

the steps and just got on.

>> That's badass.

>> And just got him down there.

>> But then time suddenly

>> and then it just kicks in again.

>> Yeah.

>> What's your like

do you have prior to that? Is it like

goosebumps coming down?

>> Like what what's the

>> No, you have no idea what's happening,

what's going on. There's no feeling.

There's no not even and I don't mean

this to be like sound like a badass or

whatever. I I really don't. But there's

not even a fear of what you're doing.

Like I'm firing my weapon, they're

firing back at me. Oh my god, don't get

shot. That never entered my head. It

never because it's too fast. You're

thinking of too many things going on of

of getting behind something. Do I have

any more bullets in my gun? I got to

reload now. I gotta watch them to make

sure they're not getting out of the car

coming towards me. It's a whole array of

things that go on that you don't have a

feeling until later. Then, you know,

then reality sets in, especially when I

know one of our guys was shot. you don't

know his condition, you know, we because

by the time we all finished what we were

doing uh and came back to the scene,

they had taken him to the hospital

already. So, we didn't even know his

condition. Like when when he first got

shot, I thought because I was so close

to him, I thought he got shot like under

his vest

>> because of how he fell.

>> Did you have a vest on, too?

>> Oh, yeah. Okay.

>> Uh and then I I found out later he got

actually got shot in the leg.

uh which ended his career because it

blew out his hamstring uh

>> and it just missed his artery which

thank God that happened.

>> Uh but the thinking comes in later of

the wow this could have happened. Wow,

that could have happened. Uh

>> how long was the time period from when

someone came to your car and you saw

them running out to you tackling the

guy? Do you know at all?

>> 3 minutes

>> maybe.

>> Fast.

>> Yeah, I remember. And and funny you

asked that because when the trials

started and uh two of them pled, one of

them the actual shooter that shot the

officer, he was a absolute career

criminal, so he had to fight it in

court. Uh when I listened to the radio

transmission for the first time in the

in the DA's office of our radio

transmission of the shooting, it was

over and I looked went, "Where's the

rest of it?" And she's like, "That's it.

Like, what do you mean that's it?

Where's the rest of the radio show?

She's like, that's it.

>> Was it you or one of your partners?

Yeah. Okay.

>> Yeah. It was me and and a couple other

people because it went on for for a

little while. But it was weird that it

was that quick because you had no idea

how fast it was and then I heard it and

yeah, that blew my mind.

>> Were you married yet at the time?

>> For a month.

Yep. For a month. So there wasn't, you

know, you get into gear, your training

comes into play, things slow down,

bullets start flying.

>> It's not, you're obviously not looking

at the surroundings of all the people.

This is an intersection. I get that.

That makes sense. But there was never

the thought of like,

what if this is it?

>> No. No.

>> And I and I honestly honestly can say

that it just it never entered my mind.

But you know what? It was a part, you

know, not not jumping forward, but in my

career, I never thought that like doing

a search warrant and I never went, "Oh

my god, I could hit this door and

someone could be behind it with a

shotgun because I never allowed myself

to get caught up in that

>> and get that, oh crap." Because that's

when you screw up.

>> That's when bad things happen.

>> So, I never allowed myself to think. And

listen, all honesty, all young cops,

we're all bulletproof. We're all

nothing's gonna happen to us. We can

take on the world. We can we can fight

anybody. We're all part of that. And and

that I'm sure had had a part of me, you

know, like I'll be fine. I'll be fine.

Nothing's going to happen. But I never

allowed myself to get caught up in what

could happen.

>> Were you fearless or did you ever feel

fear?

>> I don't want it to sound like I was

fearless. You know, it it's a great

question, but I just I don't want to say

I must feel it. I knew, listen, I knew

what this job was and I knew what could

happen on any given day at any moment

when I went to work. But when you're in

the middle of it, you don't

>> When you're in the middle of it,

>> in the middle of it, it's not a

conscious thought of, oh wow, if I if

I'm chasing this guy and he turns

around, I could get shot. I No, trust

him. hatch them, tackle them, done.

>> Cuz this one also happened to you. It

>> wasn't planned.

>> You didn't know you were going somewhere

dangerous to like execute some crazy

search warrant silently or something

like that. So, it's not the best example

for me to ask that question, but for

like maybe a hardcore search warrant you

did at some point in your career.

>> If you weren't thinking about

at least at one point the worst that

could happen or something like that or

what if I don't make it out here, what

does fear look like to you then? Like

when you actually felt fear if you

weren't totally

>> Well, I had Okay, great question. It was

It was more okay, we made it. We got

through that without getting hurt.

>> My my thing in my life was nightmares.

>> I would have horrific nightmares.

>> When did they start?

>> Oh, who knows? Probably real early.

>> Oh, when you were like a kid.

>> No, no, no, no. With the job with with

being a police officer, I had that's

when my like my

whatever subconscious thing went on of

me not thinking about it during work

would hit me when I slept.

>> Whoa. And I would have really really

nasty nightmares.

>> Was it like the same kind of boogeyman

every time or

>> all different? All different. And you

know, my wife went through a lot of

grabbing her in the middle of the night,

grabbing her by her hair, grabbing I

mean, it was you know, some were were

bad.

>> Uh, and she would learn

she would learn by my breathing that one

was coming. You know, she would wake up

if I would start breathing heavy and it

got worse and worse and worse and worse.

and it got to a point where she would

actually get out of bed and like try to

push me to wake up.

>> Would it always be some related to

something recent you did and like a

version of what could have happened or

something

>> somewhat? Yeah. Uh,

you know, in in my a lot of my dreams,

my gun never worked. Uh, that was a big

that was a big thing with a lot of my

nightmares. My gun never worked.

>> It just the trigger didn't work. or

there was a couple I distinctly remember

that I'd fire it and the bullet would

just fall out of the gun, you know, just

things like that. Uh fights,

uh

you know, just just yeah, things like

that. Uh just random, you know,

something I might have never went

through but subconsciously got in my

head and I dreamed about it. Was this

something that was

strictly a problem with your sleep or

did it manifest as like some PTSD in

your life?

>> No, just sleep.

>> Interesting.

>> Nope. I never, you know, I never

stressed out about the job. I never uh

oh my god, I I can't go to work today

because I had a drink. I No, that was

never never a thing. It was just

strictly I never drank. I don't smoke.

Uh, you know, so that wasn't a

>> you are a cup.

>> Well, the good kind.

>> So, right. So, I ne, you know, it

wasn't, "Oh my god, I had a nightmare.

Let me go to the bar." It wasn't, you

know, and it was never even, "All right,

maybe I should go have No, it just it

never

>> got to that. I played sports. I, you

know, and family was like a big deal. I

coached all the time, you know, so that

was all something other than the job."

And and I say that all the time to young

cops, to young detectives, you need an

outlet. You need a release from this

madness.

>> And yours was like coaching kids and

stuff like that. Okay.

>> Softball and baseball.

>> How many kids do you have?

>> Three.

>> All right. Great. So, also like being a

dad and being present in that.

>> Yeah. I mean, I coached softball. My

oldest daughter played in college. You

know, I coached her from the time she

was five to she was 23.

>> Wow. That's awesome.

>> And my son played baseball. Uh, so I

coached him, you know, so that was

always

>> always a thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Which I loved loved doing.

>> And I and obviously we're still going

along here. So for people out there,

this is extra impressive to hear for me

because I know all the places you ended

up going. I mean, you became one of the

only people with the NYPD that ended up

doing like international work post 911.

We're going to talk about that. Some

stuff we actually can't even talk about.

Correct. [ __ ] crazy. But like, you

know, the fact that you're able to deal

with that that well is interesting. Have

you ever heard of Balon Jal,

>> the Harvard neuroscientist?

>> No.

>> He's been online a little bit now. He

was on my show and and I just had him on

a second time, but

>> his it I I love the guy. He's [ __ ]

amazing. But his main area of study is

sleep and dreams and and everything

behind that. He studies a lot with the

brain, but that that's like his area of

expertise because he was a Kurd who then

grew up as an immigrant in Europe and

suffered from severe sleep paralysis and

had all kinds of issues with that where

then like the dreams would turn into

nightmares and they would wake up and he

couldn't move

>> and stuff and it would just be really

interesting I think for him to kind of

like listen.

>> Yeah. Here you're because like it didn't

it wouldn't manifest then in your life.

It was like very relegated to just the

nightmares. No,

>> I mean, how often would they happen?

>> Not it it wasn't like a steady thing. It

would they would pop up here and there,

you know. I never

>> And I never

was worried about going to sleep. I

never went, you know, I just had one

last night. I don't want to have No, I'd

go to sleep.

>> Interesting.

>> You know, I it never it never found a

way into my regular regular life. Uh, it

was just something that I I was

experiencing while I was sleeping and

>> I'd wake up in the morning, go, "All

right, that one sucked."

>> And go to work.

>> Savage.

>> Moving on. But when So, you have this

whole shootout thing. That's a wild

story, by the way. And tackling a dude

in a subway. It's pretty cool. Pretty

badass. But you said later, that's when

you actually could process some of the

things that happened and all that. So,

you were just you find out your buddy's

okay. I'm sure that was a big help.

>> So, he's not dead. And, you know, I

guess you guys got the bad guys, too.

>> Yeah, we got we got we shot two of them.

Uh, caught all three. Uh, one pled to 25

years, one pled to 20 plus and then had

to go to Boston to serve out like a he

got locked up for. And the shooter got

125 years in jail.

>> 125.

>> Yeah. cuz he was a absolute career

criminal. So every every charge that we

had against him was maxed.

>> Wow.

>> So he did 125 years,

>> right? So you but basically you were

able to just look back on him and be

like, "Wow, that was some wild shit."

>> That's it.

>> You know, it was it's just, you know, I

I don't know where I learned it or how I

learned just to compartmentalize it into

not everything being an avalanche on

your head. Uh because you can't. If you

do that in a police in police work,

you're in for a lot of problems.

>> Uh that's where alcoholism and domestic

problems pop into play when you just

have a cork on your life and don't open

it, you know, and it just it's going to

blow one day. And I just found that the

other things I was doing and not

dwelling on a dream or what happened

yesterday at work worked for me.

>> Yeah.

>> Everyone's different, you know, that's

just something that worked for me.

>> Did your dad when you were growing up

talk with you about how he dealt with

not bringing the job home?

>> Yeah. You know, not Yes. talked a little

bit, but I mostly saw it. You know, I

would watch it. He never drank. you

know, he didn't drink or smoke either.

Uh, you know, sports was our complete

lives, you know, with with me playing

and and him being at every game. And

>> were you a baseball guy?

>> Yeah, I pitched.

>> All right. Very cool.

>> Uh, that was a whole another decision I

made in my life. Uh,

but

>> you were going to be a Yankee, but you

became a cop.

>> Yes.

>> Wow. So, you were good.

Uh, and it was while I was I was

actually on the job still playing and

just got asked by a guy who actually was

at one of the games that I was pitching

and came up to me after the game and

just went, "What are you doing?"

>> And I'm like, "Huh?" He's like, "What

are you doing here?" I'm like, "I just,

you know, I'm just playing." And he's

like, you know, "What do you do?" I

said, "I'm a cop in the city." He's

like, "All right, how do I get you down

to Florida to, you know?" And I'm like,

>> a couple years ago I would have jumped

at it, but at that point, uh, you know,

just said, you know, thank you, though.

You know, I appreciate it.

>> You really wanted to be a cop. That's

that's amazing.

>> Well, it was, you know what? It was a

decision of it was a decision of timing.

It was, "All right, if I go down there

and it goes well, what am I doing? Like,

I'm going to leave the police department

and roll the dice on something." Now

something happens on my arm, I get hurt.

Now what? You know, now what am I doing?

Now I lose both, you know. So it was it

was just a it was a timing thing. It was

where I was in life. It was nice to be

asked.

>> Uh but you know, then I look at the

timing of it and who was on the team at

the time. It would have been

interesting.

>> It would have been So it is the Yankees

talking. Son of a [ __ ]

>> It would have been

>> It would have been very interesting.

>> Yeah. But uh

>> you might have been a New York legend

homegrown.

>> I'm happy with the decision.

>> You imagine setting up for Mariano.

>> He's like, "Yes, yes, I thought about

that." Right before Sam Man comes on.

>> Yeah. Uh but it like I said, it was it

was a it was a point in my life. It was

it was fun to be asked. I I love playing

ball. I mean, you know, and that's why I

got into coaching so much and the kids

started playing. Uh

>> it all worked out for you.

>> Yeah. It was just like I said, I I don't

it's not a regret. It's more one of

those conversations of a what if,

>> right?

>> You know, but it's not a regret at all.

I would do

>> I would make the same decision again

right now. I would go back and be a cop

again tomorrow. You know, that's how

much of a good time I had.

>> I believe it. You light, you know, I sit

across from enough people who do all

different kinds of [ __ ] and you can see

the people whose eyes light up talking

about what they do

>> or what they did and it's like

>> you can't really fake that.

>> No. And I I just did. I loved I loved

what I did. I absolutely loved it. I

woke up every day like, "Cool, let's

go."

>> Was it everything that you had imagined

like when you kind of had your first

heroes being your dad and the guys you

worked with? This is like, "Yeah, this

this is the other version of the Yankees

in a way."

>> Yeah. Because, you know, and I and I

tell this and not not as an embarrassing

thing, but I'll explain why. My dad was

my number one thing and what really

influenced me to be a cop was Star Tut.

Because here's why. Because Stars Ski

and Hutch was a different cop show. It

was it was made different. The

relationship between the two of them

really caught my eye.

>> So, not only did I always want that

excitement and that adrenaline rush and

and chase the bad guy, I wanted a

relationship with my partner that they

had cuz that's what I watched. And it

was them goofing around and them joking

around and them relying on each other

and them knowing each other's moves and

having their back and all that was a big

part of what I wanted in the police

department. Not just the whole action

thing. I wanted that bond with a partner

that I watched growing up my whole life.

>> Uh so that was always a big part of it.

And I saw that with my dad. I still to

this day, okay, honest to God, one of my

dad's closest partners from the 60s and

early 70s, I still to this day talk to

his family.

>> Oh, that's really cool.

>> All the time. And Joe actually just

passed away a couple years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> And I still talk to his son. Me and him

are still good friends. the daughters,

we all just and that is a relationship

that started in probably the late 50s

and 60s and we I still talk to them and

that's what I learned about what a

partner is like.

>> Did you have siblings growing up too?

>> Four older sisters.

>> Okay. All right. All right. It's

clocking now. You need you needed that

brotherhood or something. Y

>> I gotcha. That's pretty cool though

because it's like that was they don't

really make good like

>> you know buddy cop movies or anything

anymore but those that when you see

those like even you think like bad boys

like Martin Lawrence and Will Smith

there's just like a

>> you know

>> it's a thing right

>> right and it and it is a thing uh you

know when you have that guy and and you

know Carlos and I had that George Figuro

was my partner on patrol we had that uh

you know it was just it's something

clicks And you don't think where each

other's going to be, you just know. Uh,

you know, when I would go through a

door, you know, doing a search warrant

in narcotics and I was a RAM guy, so I

hit the door. I knew Carlos was right

behind me

>> when I went in that door. And if I still

have the ram in my hand and there's a

guy in front of me, I know he's got it.

>> Just duck kind of to the side.

>> Kind of to the side a little bit. We had

We always had a plan. It was great doing