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>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Okay. So, when we scheduled this, the

there's nothing happening. It was so

peaceful.

>> Every time we're here, something crazy

is going on, man.

>> Yeah. Uh maybe we manifest it.

>> To be honest, it did. 2026 did start

with a bang.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, a lot of things, you know,

it's just nothing seems stable

everywhere. Everywhere in the world

seems [ __ ] right now. Like this is the

like in all of my years, this seems the

most unstable globally.

>> Like I never worried that the UK was

going to be like complete chaos,

arresting 12,000 people for social media

posts and abandoning trial by jury, all

all that [ __ ] I never thought the

Ukraine Russia war would go on this

long. Never thought.

>> Never thought they would just continue

bombing Gaza and then what's happening

now? They just sort of stop and now

they're talking about putting a resort

there.

What are like you hear that and you go,

are you [ __ ] serious?

>> Right.

>> Tim Dylan has a I won't won't give the

bit away. He has a [ __ ] phenomenal

bit about staying in that resort.

>> Yeah. And you boys have been busy as

well, Joe.

>> Yeah. And then I was going to get to

that, the embarrassing part. Uh uh in

the middle of Ramadan, you take out the

leader of a Muslim country and uh

>> they're hangry already and you're

[ __ ] with it.

>> Well,

and they're really Yeah. They can't even

drink water, right? And then, you know,

I was listening to Tim Dylan's podcast

today. Uh he's got a great podcast with

uh Ryan Grim and one other gentleman.

But one of the things that they brought

up was that some of these drone attacks,

it doesn't even seem like they're from

Iran. Some of these drone attacks on

Gulf States

>> like that. One of them um I I don't want

to speak out of tune out of turn because

I don't I'm not exactly sure which ones

they're talking about. They're talking

about one of them on um

either it's a oil refinery. I think it

is an oil refinery that it doesn't seem

like it came from Iran.

>> So, okay.

>> Where did it come from?

>> That's a good question.

>> One of their proxies.

>> That's a good question.

>> Well, the the fear is a false flag.

That's the fear. Like if you really

wanted to get really scared of what

we're dragged into,

>> you're dragged into an ally that's not

telling you the truth and is also doing

some other stuff.

>> Well, I'm not even a saying that that's

the case, but a lot of people are

assuming that that's what it is.

>> But that's what happens when you have an

absence of information,

>> right?

>> And so the moment you have an absence of

information, there's a vacuum and nature

of a vacuum. You need to have that

vacuum filled. So that's where

conspiracies naturally flourish because

100% because if people don't have

information then they're going to

basically theorize,

>> right?

>> And part of people theorizing is

conspiracies are going to start

flourishing.

>> Well, I think they were basing it on the

where the drone came from like let's see

if we can find some information on that.

Jamie,

>> I will try. I was it was Jeremy Scill

was the other

>> That's right.

>> reporter on the video. I just find it

amazing now how many people have like a

hard take on like what's going I'm like

what the we don't know a [ __ ] thing

about what's going like the coin is in

the air right and we do not know how

it's going to but everyone's got a take

everyone knows

>> like we do not [ __ ] I don't I don't

think anyone knows like I understand if

you if you work at the White House or if

you work in Russian propaganda or you

work in Chinese propaganda like or if

you work in Iranian like you you've got

to get your point of view across to try

and persuade people but if you're

actually trying to work out what's

genuinely happening. I don't think

anyone knows how. This is a gamble of

gigantic proportions

>> and nobody knows how it's going to end.

Like it's just so unpredictable. And I

can tell you a great story that is like

positive for the for the West, let's

say, or for America. I can tell you a

terrible story and they both sound very

convincing and no one knows which one of

them is true.

>> Yeah, that's a very good point. Uh th

this is the hottake culture, right?

Everyone has a take and they want that

take to be the expert take.

>> So uh specific drone attack incidents

that call potential false flags. Saudi

Arabia uh Saudi uh Saudi Aramco rather

um oil facility attack. So Iranian

officials deny striking the Saudi Aramco

processing facility and instead suggest

Israel may have carried out that attack

as a false flag to inflamed Gulf opinion

and pull Saudi Arabia more directly into

the war with Iran. So Ryan Grim

explicitly says he thinks Iran's claims

that Israel hit the Aramco facility need

to be taken seriously and that it's very

possible Israel did it. And this was the

other one, the drone strike on the

British base in Cyprus. That was from

Lebanon, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Is that what they're saying?

>> Yeah.

>> May have come from the direction of

Lebanon. He places this in the same

context of Iran claiming Israel carried

out certain attacks in neighboring

states as false flags to blame in Iran

and drag those countries into the war.

>> Those countries, this doesn't make any

logical sense to me because those

countries already in the war. I mean,

Saudi Arabia and UAE have been attacked

by Iran because

they were on the phone to Trump

basically asking him to do this. Here's

this is another weird one. The Tucker

Carlson one.

>> You saw that, right?

>> No.

>> So Tucker Carlson said that

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That they had been

arrested that members of MSANDA have

been arrested in Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

>> So, uh,

>> but both Qatar and Saudi Arabia have

said it's not true.

>> Yeah. They've officially denied such

arrests. Their own Saudi sources also

denied it, though they note details

don't prove it didn't happen, and that

states would almost certainly hide such

arrests if real. Huh. Well,

the thing Joe is that these countries,

so Saudi Arabia and UAE, Qatar less so,

they want this to happen because they

also hate Iran or the Iranian regime,

>> right?

>> So there is no need for Israel even if

you you know, if people are tempted to

believe there's no need for Israel to do

this because these countries are already

in it,

>> right?

And that one of the reasons Iran has

attacked things in Saudi Arabia and in

the UAE is they know that. Right.

>> Right. So

>> the Gulf countries are on board with

this.

>> Right. So what would uh what would be if

let's assume that the false flag thing

that it's in play? Who would why why

would Israel how would they benefit from

doing that?

>> That's what I'm saying. There is no

rationale that I can think of.

>> The people that think the false flag is

real. Like why do they think that? like

what do they think that Israel would

benefit from it? Is there a scenario

where you could imagine it would inflame

things and further support other

countries contributing to the I mean

there's a lot of money that's being

spent on this war, right? It's like this

is insane amount of money just for

munitions, just for missiles.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And then rebuilding Iran if

we get to that, right?

>> Maybe another resort.

>> Yeah.

>> So, but I just don't see the rationale

because the the Gulf countries are

already targets for Iran, right? There's

nothing too inflamed. Like the situation

is already pretty [ __ ] inflamed,

right? And it's partly inflamed because,

as I say, actually the Gulf States and

Israel are pretty aligned on this

particular thing. They are all um at

threat from the Iranian regime.

>> Mhm.

>> Um so we we had Aean Dean and Richard M

on our show the other day. One of them

is a al-Qaeda MI6 double agent. Another

one is a really reputable investigative

journalist.

Al-Qaeda MI6.

Oh, what balls.

>> And he has a great podcast now as well

called Conflicted.

>> What a great name for a podcast for a

guy who's a double agent.

>> What balls that guy must have.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's a really cool guy. But

anyway, I mean, he was explaining that

Saudi Arabia has a population that is

way bigger than what they can sustain in

terms of the water, but they live in the

[ __ ] desert. So they have these

desalination plants which are extremely

vulnerable. Uh and Saudi Arabia, UAE,

these other countries, they felt at huge

risk from Iranian attacks for a long

time. So they none of them like the

Iranian regime that's spreading

terrorism through its proxies. So in

actual fact, dragging them into the war

kind of like there's no sense for that.

I think there's a lot of people just

they they go to reaction now whenever

anything happens is that it was Israel's

fault. You know, like Venezuela, [ __ ]

all to do with Israel, but when it

happened, every Israel I think some

people just go to that now as the

automatic response, which it comes back

to what I was saying earlier about the

hottake culture.

>> Something happened 3 minutes ago and now

everyone's got a [ __ ] take on it. You

don't know anything.

>> None of us know anything. None of us

know how this is going to go cuz this

right now is a highly unpredictable

situation. I don't think the White House

knows how this is going to go.

>> No, it's terrifying. It's terrifying and

it's exactly the opposite of what we

were told leading into this

administration

>> that it's going to be America first,

>> right?

>> And no more unnecessary foreign wars.

>> I There's the other thing that Do you

remember Desert Storm?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Desert Storm. Quick and easy, baby. Woo.

We went in, kicked some ass, took some

names. That's a wrap. Pulled out. There

was only one base that got hit, so there

was the the amount of deaths by American

citizens was fairly minimal. I think

that's what got people so confident into

entering Iran after 9/11 or excuse me,

Iraq after 911 to go back like we

already [ __ ] them up once. We're going

to go back and this is going to be easy.

Well, it wasn't easy the second time and

it was drawn out and it didn't make any

sense. But people wanted some form of

revenge something for 9/11 and so

somehow or another they justified a war

with a country that had zero to do with

it. Like it didn't even make sense. That

one took for and then we also invaded

Afghanistan at the same time. What do we

do? What the [ __ ] So in the fog of this

idea of American exceptionalism, we're

just going to go in and fix it. We did

it before. There's no one even close to

us. Well, look how that turned out.

>> Yeah. Well, this is completely true. And

then this idea that it's so easy to take

one regime, remove it, and then just put

another one in its place like it's a

Lego block, and then all of a sudden

you're going to magically fix a country

is a fantasy. Like if you take Iran, the

IRGC, which is the Islamic Revolutionary

Guard, numbers around 200,000

trained soldiers. And not only are they

trained soldiers, they're fanatical.

They're fanatics. And then you have the

secret police. And then you have the

regular police. And then you have the

people employed in the government. And

then their families, and so on and so

forth, and then their supporters within

the country. And then you've got the

various factions within Iran like the

Kurds who want independence. So the

moment the the leadership is weakened,

they're going to use it as an

opportunity to launch their own

revolution to try and break away from

the rest of Iran. So you have all of

these particular parts play these

factions and then you think if you take

out the top the tag at the top who's

holding it all together by force I'm not

saying I agree with him or I what he

does you have the very real risk that

the entire country is going to

disintegrate as what happened in Iran in

Iraq sorry

>> and also Libya.

>> Yeah.

the the idea that you could just take

the guy out and that's a wrap. The

I mean it doesn't seem like it's well

thought out.

>> Well, I mean they would say Venezuela,

right? Like regime adjustment

different kind of course. This is a

religious fanatical. It's a totally

different kind of country. Also, it's a

country that's been under threat for

decades, right? So, they've been

preparing for this kind of thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And also with Venezuela, it wasn't

a regime change. Practically everybody

who was in the old regime is still

there.

>> It's regime adjustment.

>> Exactly. Exactly. So Deli Rodriguez was

one of the senior leaders in Maduro's

regime. They just took out Maduro and

his wife. They put Deli Rodriguez there,

but the whole structure, the whole

leadership, the whole party is still in

place. So they've just what they've done

is they put Deli at the top and they've

said to her, "Look, if you [ __ ] about,

you're going to get what your boss got.

So you're going to follow what we say.

You're going to do what we say. You are

going to open up the oil refineries.

We're going to build it. We're going to

you're going to start pumping oil out.

You're going to stop messing about with

Hezbollah, which they had training camps

in the island of Margarita, which is a

little Caribbean island 2 and a half

hours away from Miami. Training camps.

You can't have that. You're not going to

be fratonizing with the Cubans and

you're going to play ball and

essentially Venezuela is now a colony of

the United States. That's what it's now

become.

>> That's wild. Well, there's also the Kurt

Mezer angle, which is hilarious. Kurt

Medsker cornered me one night at the at

the mothership and uh he explained to me

that this is all about the 2020 election

and that Maduro somehow or another had

something to do with rigging the 2020

election and he's going to say it as a

part of his testimony.

He's like, "Just wait. Just wait. Mark

my words."

>> He's he's convinced of this.

>> He goes down the rabbit hole to the

lava. Like he passes and he's like,

"This rabbit hole has been covered up.

It goes deeper and he keep he keeps

going till he's at the [ __ ] center of

the earth."

>> He's a funny guy, though.

>> Oh, he's hilarious. He's hilarious. He's

mentally ill, but he's hilarious. He's

one of the funniest people I know, like,

ever. Fantastic joke writer, too. I

mean, he's just great all around. But

Jesus Christ, like some of his nutty

theories, they go so far.

>> Oh, absolutely. I've I've been in in

bars with Kurt where he starts talking

to me and I'm like, "Kurt, I I I don't

even know what we're talking about

anymore."

>> Well, he changes he changes conspiracies

midsentence. He starts bringing up some

[ __ ] from the 70s and it's the Church

Committee and this and that and MK Ultra

and don't you know about Monarch? Like

what?

Slow down. Like not everybody knows what

you're talking about. But I I think this

is and I love Kurt, but this is kind of

where you feel that the truth isn't

enough. So you there needs to be

something else.

>> There needs to be something that goes

deeper than that. And sometimes there

is, don't get me wrong. Sometimes it

does go deeper, but sometimes like

you're making connections where there

are no connections. Like it's pretty

simple with Venezuela what was going on.

They were [ __ ] about and they were

doing it for a long time and they were

doing it in America's backyard and they

had warning after warning and Maduro,

the way I'd push back against Kurt is

I'm really sorry Kurt, but Maduro ain't

that bright.

>> Well, I don't think he has to be that

bright to finance and make sure and

arrange things because they did there

was like some something connected to the

voting machines that were there.

>> They made those claims. Sydney Powell

was it?

>> Yeah. Here we go. She's another fun one.

um post 2020 from Trump allies like

Sydney Powell and Rudy Giuliani claiming

Hugo Chavez, Maduro's predecessor,

developed rigged software to export to

US firms. These were promoted by figures

like Mike Lindell. He makes a great

pillow. Should listen to him and

amplified on social media, but courts

and fact checks rejected them, including

Fox News 78787

million uh Dominion settlement.

>> Yeah, I was going to say I was pretty

sure that those claims were debunked.

Yeah. Not to Kurt. They didn't

He's like, "You guys don't know where

the hard drives are. They're in the

center of the earth. We got to get

there." Um, yeah, that doesn't make much

sense to me. But, uh, neither does this

idea that you're going to take over a

country's oil supply, you know, like

that, you know, we'll just take it. that

the problem is from the outside like the

rest of the world. You you look at this

unnecessary aggression by the United

States government and then you tack on

whatever propaganda they have already

been spitting out about America for the

last 20 or 30 years and then this war

with Iran gets really ugly

>> because that's how you start a World War

II. You start a World War II by doing

something that

other than people that wanted this

forever. Who else thinks that's a good

idea? Who else thinks it's a good idea

to just attack a country that isn't

doing anything? They haven't done

anything. Like, if you've proof that

they have developed the depleted uranium

and they've got it up to a point where

it's they've got it to what it what what

percentage does it have to be? Like

they're at 60, right?

>> But that's way more than you need.

>> Way more than you need, right? So, it

shows that they're at least ramping up

their production where it's possible to

get it to whatever it needs to make.

It's way more than you need for civilian

use. Right. Right.

>> Um

>> but that's still it's not clear that

that justifies an invasion when North

Korea has nuclear weapons.

>> Right.

>> Right. It's like do we just want we just

trying to prevent them from ever getting

to a point where they're like North

Korea? Who the [ __ ] is worried about

North Korea? Zero people. This episode

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>> I think the difference, as you correctly

said earlier, is these people are very

different to the North Koreans, right?

North Korea wants to be left the [ __ ]

alone. Iran does not want to be left

alone. Iran wants to dominate the

region. That's why they fund Hamas. It's

why they fund Hezbollah. It's why they

fund the Houthies. It's why they are

doing [ __ ] That's why the Gulf

countries and Israel are very worried

about them. Right. So that's the

difference I think. And then there's

the, you know, uh, some of the people

we've had on the show who are Iranian

have talked about the the what is it

called? 12 Shia Islam. Is that the I

can't remember the details, but

basically they have a kind of messianic

vision of what's going to happen. And

they they believe that when the world

ends, that's when the prophecy will be

fulfilled. You don't want those guys

with nuclear weapons, right? That's a

good point.

>> Yeah. So, from that perspective, it's

different to North Korea. Um,

>> and so that that's I think that's part

of the thinking, but your your point is

interesting to me about the fact that

this doesn't reflect what people, you

know, as we're not Americans, but it

doesn't seem to have been part of the

policy platform of the Trump uh election

at the last election, right?

>> No, not at all.

>> But I do think there is some kind of

strategy behind all of this, and I'm

very curious what that is. Uh because I

guess if if you think about it

logically, you would say, well, is it an

attempt to effectively push back against

China and Russia infiltrating all these

countries, right? China and and Russia

were very close with V with Maduro in

Venezuela.

>> Very very like Francis is saying,

Hezbollah training camps, I margarita,

where was the oil going? Right. Same

with Iran. I mean, Iran sells its oil to

China and sends suicide drones to Russia

to use in Ukraine. So maybe it's that

maybe the strategy is you're trying to

push back against Chinese and Russian

influence in in all these countries

because you can't attack them directly

because you can't attack them directly,

right?

>> Yeah.

>> Uh but this is all just guessing on on

my part and that's what I'm really

curious. We're going to do some

interviews on this trip to kind like I

want to get someone on the show who can

go this is the strategy, right? this is

what we're doing because I think as we

were saying earlier it's not very clear

to most people what the rationale behind

all of this is but I also don't think

this sort of like mad dog Trump idea is

true either I think he has a strategy

I'd just love to know what it is

>> and it's very interesting because

there's been talk about regime change in

Cuba

>> and one of the things so

>> I think that's next genuinely

>> oh my god

>> I think that's next

>> so when Chavis came to power in 99. What

he did, and not enough people talk about

this, is he turned what was uh very

corrupt, admittedly, liberal, western

style democracy into a communist

dictatorship. And how do you do that?

You can't just literally do that

overnight. So what he did is he allied

with the Cubans and um Fidel in

particular, Fidel Castro. Venezuela

provided Cuba with cheap oil which

helped to keep the Cuban economy afloat

because Cuba's been going broke since

however many years, 40 odd years. And

what Castro did was he gave him the

boots on the ground in Venezuela, but

also the technical expertise and knowhow

in order to change a western liberal

democracy into a communist state with

permanent surveillance, secret police,

subjugate the population. So there was

no chance of them ever being able to

revolt and m make every and turn

everything into like I said into a

communist state. So by what they did in

Venezuela, Venezuela can no longer

support Cuba. So Cuba is literally now

withering on the vine as a result of

them knocking out the Venezuelans. M

>> so it's going to come to a point where

you say Cuba effectively going to go

bankrupt which could precipitate an

uprising a revolution by people when

people can no longer eat and that would

mean that that country is then weakened

finally they can get rid of the

communist regime there and they can have

a different type of government one which

would be far more sympathetic should we

say to working with America and being an

American island possibly

>> that makes sense to me in a way what I

don't understand about the Iran thing is

like what is the end goal here? Well,

you've got the Resa Bahavi, the Sha's

son. I mean, he left Iran a long time

ago as a kid, right? The you know, the

idea he's going to go back in there and

be welcomed by the masses. Maybe that's

true. Maybe

>> it's like Daenerys returning to the Iron

Throne.

>> Yeah, but Daener Daenerys had three

[ __ ] dragons,

right?

>> But you know what I'm saying? Like she

left when she was a baby.

>> Yeah, that's right. That's right. And

the pe it's not like the people are

desperately I I don't know maybe the

people are desperate for the return of

the

>> well it seems like some people are

desperate for a change there the people

that were protesting some people that

risk their lives 100%. But like every

country like if you only listen to the

liberals in this country you you would

think that you know that no one's

illegal on stolen land. If you only

listen to the Republicans in this

country you would think we got to find

every illegal and get them out of our

country and make America great again.

like this. It doesn't make sense if we

just go only by the protesters. Like

>> we don't really have accurate polling

because they don't have any free speech

over there. And they they've killed like

famous athletes over there for

protesting. I mean, they killed the

Olympic gold medalist in wrestling. The

UFC tried to step in and tried to do

something to stop it. They they executed

him for just

>> I apparently I don't even think he was

actually protesting. I think he was just

at a protest.

>> He wasn't even saying anything. And this

is the thing you always have to bear in

mind, Joe. Um,

>> I might be wrong about that though.

>> No, I think you are right.

>> Am I right about that?

>> The the final details, I'm not sure, but

the fact that he was executed and Dana

worked very hard to try and save that.

>> I think there there was some discrepancy

as to whether or not he was actually

participating in the the protest, but

that also could have been the defense,

you know? I don't know. But I mean, the

fact that they execute people who

protest, I mean, there's no way you can

support that kind of that's a scary ass

[ __ ] government and run by religious

fanatics. That's a scary ass government.

But the question is like, how scary ass

does it have to get where invading makes

sense because if if this keeps going

like if we we have to go boots on the

ground, that's where things get nuts.

>> You can't go boots on the ground, man.

You can't you can't,

>> right? I don't but I don't think there's

any

>> you should be president of the United

States.

>> There's a lot of people are going to

disagree with that.

>> No, I I I I don't think that's viable.

Just like

>> it might be robot boots on the ground.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, if Elon gets that factory up

in time.

>> What I want to know is like what is it

that what is what is it you're working

towards? Right. Right. Like so from what

what I understand talking to some of the

people like Israel would quite like a

reslavi monarchy because the other

Middle Eastern countries that they have

peace with you know Bahrain, Morocco, uh

increasingly the Gulf States, they're

all monarchies. Right.

>> Right.

>> Right.

>> So they're down with that. But from what

I understand the White House is really

not that interested in Pakavi. And so

what one

>> what do they want? Well, one of the

things that Richard Miner broke on our

show, because it hadn't been reported

anywhere else, was that the White House

has given the Israelis a no kill list,

which is basically a list of members of

the current regime that they don't want

to be killed because they have hoped

that these people could then be the

Rodriguez

equivalent in Iran, right? And I I don't

know that the fanatics within the

Iranian regime who are there now, how

many of them are like this mo like Darth

Vader but like like do you know what I

mean? Yeah.

>> You're kind of looking for

>> Darth Vader zero.

>> Yeah. No, no, no. No is zero Islamism.

Like I I don't know that that exists.

Right.

>> Right. Sugarfree.

>> Sugarree. Islamism free. Yeah.

>> So So that's the bit. And that doesn't

mean that there isn't like a plan,

right?

>> But I don't know what the [ __ ] that plan

is right now. And I find it hard to see

one, right?

>> So regime, evil regime gone. Wonderful.

But what but the question is always like

what comes after that,

>> right?

>> That's always the question. And that's

where I think your point is very true,

which is in the past there have been

times where this sort of approach has

gone completely off the rails.

>> Yeah,

>> that's a fact.

>> And it's also as well what has been

coming out of the Trump camp is

contradictory to put it mildly. You have

Hexf saying one thing, you have Trump

saying another. They contradict each

other at certain points. Is that a

tactic in order to befuddle the

opponent? Maybe. Who knows? Or is it the

fact that they don't actually have a

grand vision?

>> Was there some sort of a concession

today on Russian oil?

>> Yeah. Well, I think the first of all,

Trump let uh India buy Iranian oil and I

think now they are lifting the sanctions

on Russia selling its oil because the

oil prices spiked as much as they did.

Right.

>> Here it goes. US eases limits on Russian

energy as oil prices sore.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, you've got the Pink Floyd

t-shirt, so it's appropriate.

>> But you you can see it like the oil oil

prices spiked

>> for for what? One day, two days.

>> Yeah.

>> And everyone went full panic straight

away. But the thing is if that does if

that carries on for two months, the

impact of that on domestic politics, I

mean, I'm not an expert in American

politics, but even I can say that's

going to be pretty [ __ ] important.

>> Oh, it's bad,

>> right?

>> Yeah, it's going to be bad. I mean, if

oil prices spike, we're [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and the Republicans are really

[ __ ]

>> Yeah. And you got the midterms coming.

>> You got the midterms coming up in

November. And it's also the momentum

will be in their way. And look, there's,

you know, second, third, fourth order

consequences. So, at the moment in the

UK, the vast majority of people find it

are finding it more and more difficult

just to get through to the end of the

month

>> because of the cost of living,

inflation.

It's becoming worse and worse. I was

talking to a butcher in my area, which

is this very nice part of North London.

You know the type of place I'm talking

about. Everyone loves BLM. No one has a

black friend. That kind of place, right?

Okay. That's the kind of area it is. And

he was telling me that even in this very

wealthy area, people are starting to

ration in meat now. So before they'd

have meat 5 days a week, now they're

going down to three or two. And this

isn't a wealthy area. So now imagine if

there's energy spikes and then food

becomes more and more expensive. There

is already a very worrying

hardleft political movement growing in

the UK where they're talking about, you

know, the capitalism doesn't work. We

need socialism. And there's a there's

this new politician come to the four, a

guy called Zack Palansky, who talks

about what we need in this country and

and the UK is socialism. Now, imagine if

the cost of living crisis gets worse.

And the vast majority of people who work

hard in a regular job can't make ends

meet through literal no fault of their

own. Can you blame them for going, "Hang

on, capitalism doesn't work." Because in

this instance, at that moment, it

doesn't work for them. And then you

could that could spark something

completely disastrous for our country.

>> Yeah. But I think you know that's a

negative story. I think it's incredibly

persuasive and I lean more in the

direction that this could go badly. But

I also think there is the possibility of

this goes well too. I I think that is

possible. Um

>> what do you how do you envision that

scenario? Well, so if if they're able to

keep the straight off open and you don't

have this energy problems that we've got

now, um you know, Venezuela, Cuba, he's

basically resetting the region and he's

basically saying to all the people that

want to align themselves with China and

Russia, like we're not [ __ ] about

here. Do don't cross these lines. That

is an opportunity to to to address the

slide that the Western world has had

visa v China and Russia for a very long

time. That could be a very positive

thing. My the thing is what happens in

Iran like that is the thing that I don't

really see how that goes well. Might

might do like I said there's probably a

plan that we don't know and if if that

works out that could be very good.

>> Does it okay what would you imagine that

plan would be if you if you like let's

let's imagine best case scenario you're

in the White House. They're all very

rational. No one's being influenced by

foreign governor governments. No one's

incompetent. Everybody knows what

they're doing.

>> Well, yeah. I mean, we're in the realms

of fantasy now.

>> But I mean, take the Soviet Union, which

is obviously something that I know,

right? Being born in the Soviet Union,

Russia. Towards the end of the Soviet

Union, you still had some fanatical

communists. And in fact, throughout the

Soviet Union, you always had within the

government a mixture of different

people, right? You had the fanatical

communists who believed that communism

is the only thing that was ever going to

work, etc. But you also had people who

were reformers. They saw the problems.

They saw that the fanatical communists

were ruining things and things were

getting worse, right? They saw that you

had to kill more and more of your own

people to keep the to keep [ __ ] locked

down, right? So the argument could be

within the Iranian revolutionary guard

or the regime more broadly, there are

people who are like, you know, I'm I'm

I'm not necessarily that keen on on the

guy who runs Syria now, Al Galani,

right? He is a jihadi but he's kind of

like a moderate one. You know, you know

how long that I don't know how long it's

going to last. But my point is within

every regime there is some range of

opinion. There is some range of

fanaticism. There is some range of

people who partly for generational

reasons. You know the younger people

have seen uh you know a 40-year history

and they now go okay this isn't working

anymore. We need to try something else.

That is possible. So if if the the CIA

and the White House have someone like

that um and they can do a regime

adjustment and like I think the idea

that you're going to have,

you know, multi-parliamentary democracy

with, you know, free and fair elections

and women, you know, like Venice Beach,

you know, rollerblading on bikinis on. I

don't know that that's going to happen,

right? But what you might have is an

authoritarian regime of some kind like

many other countries in the Middle East

which realizes that actually economic

growth is more important than shouting

Alahaga every 3 minutes and blowing [ __ ]

up, right? that focuses on making life

better for their citizens that you know

practices traditional Muslim values

which many countries do and says you

know women ought to be modest but

doesn't force them to wear the burka or

or or or the the headscarf or whatever

or and uh is less interested in

destabilizing the region and attacking

others and trying to be this great power

and is more interested in just

prosperity for its own people survival

for them for themselves ves as a regime

and is willing to play ball with the

United States. I I mean

>> well said. Yeah. Well said. That's best

case scenario.

>> That's best case scenario. Now, if you

get there, you I think that would be a

huge win for President Trump and it' be

a huge win for the world and he will

walk away from that with a huge win. And

I think you know you're better expert on

the American people, but I think

American people like winning, right? So,

if you have all this happen, he can then

say, well, look, we did this, we did

this, we did this, Russia and China have

been pushed back. we got to, you know,

the situ is not going to get a nuke,

which is important. I think we can all

agree on that, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Um there is the possibility that he

comes out of this very well.

>> I I think that based on what I see, but

I don't know, coming back to what we

said, I think we've shared this kind of

perspective really, Francis and I, that

seems somewhat less likely at this

point, at least harder to see, but I

think you can tell a persuasive story

both ways. I really do.

>> That makes sense. And what what you're

saying I think is very valid that we

need to abandon any idea of them having

some sort of a democracy over there.

It's it's not going to happen.

>> No.

>> Um and you know you do look at the

relationships that we have with other

Gulf state

>> nations

>> seems fine. Right. It's not threatening

to us. We would like everyone to be free

and have the same sort of liberal

democracy that we have in America. But

okay, you like that all want that all

day long. You can't do anything to

change the way other people govern

themselves. Especially when you've

gotten to the point where like

take any of the Middle Eastern countries

for example, these some of these people

are worth trillions of dollars. These

royal families have been running it

forever. They have insane amounts of oil

money.

>> Good luck.

>> Good luck getting them out of there.

like good good luck saying uh we should

just vote, you know, and have a

president and you don't have any power

anymore. Like how how are you going to

pull that off? Especially if things are

going well for the people that live

there. Like like I have a friend who

moved to Dubai

>> and uh he's an American and uh he moved

back to America recently, but he was

over there and he said, "Dude, you could

leave a Rolex on the street and people

would pick it up and bring it to the

police.

>> Like it's so safe." He's like, "There's

no crime." and he's black and she he's

like, "I worry when I go out in America

I'm going to get shot. I'm worried I'm

going to go to a club and someone's

going to start beefing and shooting up

the place and I'm going to get hit." He

goes, "I don't think about that at all

over here. There's none of that." He

goes, "It's safer." Is he Is it [ __ ]

up that you know it's run by a king?

>> I I guess is there is it that much

different than a president? I mean, in

in a way, like it's a leader, right?

You've got more checks and balances over

here. You've got Congress. You got the

Senate. You got all this [ __ ] going on

with the Supreme Court. You have all

these different human beings that also

have a say and can block things. And but

at the end of the day, we're still under

this bizarre alpha male chimpanzee

structure that has existed from the time

that we were 150 people in a [ __ ]

tribe, right? So, it's still one guy

running things. It's just running things

their way. And if you were a citizen in

Dubai,

pretty [ __ ] good, right?

>> Right. Well, your point about the UAE is

really interesting because not only is

on the practical level of safety and

other things, but also uh they don't

have the Islamism problem, right,

>> that we have in Britain and increasingly

you guys are starting to see here

>> because they recognize that it's a

problem and they deal with it. So, I

don't know if you saw this news story.

The UAE no longer gives sponsorships to

their students to go to the UK because

they're worried their kids are going to

get radicalized by Islamists in Britain,

>> which is [ __ ] wild.

>> Yeah, that is [ __ ] wild.

>> And you I mean you you you were

messaging me about the story with the

Mandani situation, right, yesterday?

Yes.

>> You now have this problem in America.

>> Yeah. Yes. You have the Islamism problem

here where people who are supporters of

ISIS are thrown. I mean, your media is

pretending it's not happening, but it's

[ __ ] happening.

>> Well, it happened in Austin,

>> right?

>> I mean, the guy who shot up that bar.

>> Um,

>> because this is a

>> send that article to Jamie. Jamie, you

could probably find it on CNN because

it's kind of hilarious.

>> Incredible. This was actually

incredible.

>> The New York Times title change thing.

>> Did the New York Times change their

title? Yeah,

>> they did with the

>> I wonder why

>> I'm going to send you the CNN one first.

>> Um the CNN one is is really wild. I'm

>> called they had like fuses of things

with smoke or something. They change it

to bombs or something.

>> Yeah, [ __ ] duh. Uh I'm sending you

this one cuz the CNN one is, believe it

or not, more preposterous. The CNN one

is so kooky. You you you see their

headline, you're like, "What? What kind

of story are you painting here? Like

this is such a crazy way to frame a guy

showed up with bombs and was hurling

them at people.

>> Well, they made it sound like the exact

opposite of what actually happened.

>> Well, it sounded like it was just a

regular day. Just regular just regular

day for this fella. And then things just

went a little sideways somewhere along

the way.

>> Listen, we've all got hobbies, man. You

know what I mean? You like working out.

He has nail bombs. Come on.

>> Yeah.

>> Did you get it, Jamie? It's

>> not It's not coming through.

>> No. Look, when I uh It's not loading

there.

>> Oh, interesting. But let me um see if

they took it down.

>> I'd guess they would have. You probably

have an old link that

>> Okay, that's the New York Times one I

sent you on for Oh, well that No, that's

the one I just clicked on. Let me check

the uh original one. Nothing to see

here. Interesting.

>> Uh they probably deleted it. Okay, here.

I found it. I found it. Two Pennsylvania

teenagers crossed into New York City

Saturday morning for what could have

been a normal day enjoying the city

during abnormally warm weather. But in

less than an hour, their lives were

drastically changed as the pair would be

arrested for throwing homemade bombs.

Like she that's that's that is CNN's

tweet. Um I'm going to send you a

screenshot cuz I do believe they've

taken it down.

>> They bur them.

>> Um yep. Nothing to see here yet. Yeah,

they took it down.

>> That's not a headline though. Let's take

a second.

>> No, no, no. I'm I I'm going to send you

the uh actual tweet because they did

take it down because it's so [ __ ]

ridiculous. But uh the internet never

forgets. Um I'm sending it to you here.

Thank god I saved it. It took a

screenshot cuz I'm like this is such a

crazy way to frame

>> Yeah.

>> two guys wanted to do a terror attack.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's not an accident, Joe. It's not

crazy.

>> You know it's not crazy.

>> No. Look. Look how it's framed here.

This is the original tweet. Two

Pennsylvania teenagers, just regular

fails from from PA from Philly. Two

Philly boys had a couple of cheese

steaks and then got on the train

>> crossing New York City Saturday morning

for what could have been a normal day

enjoying the city during abnormally warm

weather. Why the [ __ ] would you even say

that? Could have been a normal day if

they weren't going there to commit

terrorism.

>> Do you know what it reads like? It reads

like when I used to teach uh 13year-olds

creative writing. That's how they'd all

start off. You know, it was like a

normal day. And

>> I mean, is the I'd like to know who

wrote who wrote that. Who's the person

who wrote that? And I want to know if

were you were we directed to write it

that way or

>> who approved it? Yeah. Who edited it?

>> Are you trying to downplay the

possibility of first of all now in New

York because you have a a guy who's an

avowed whatever he is, democratic,

socialist, some say communist, but also

Muslim. And then you have these

Islamists who are doing a terrorist

attack. So like are you trying to soften

that? Are you trying to soften it?

>> So what what happened just so people

know is there was a protest outside

Mdani's mansion.

>> Right.

>> Right. And then these two people turned

up and threw bombs at the protesters and

the way it was reported you if you just

read that and no other stuff you would

have come away from with the conclusion

that it was the protesters who were the

targets of the bombs. they were the ones

that threw the bombs. No one officially

said that's what happened. But the way

they did the story and the headline, you

would have got that impression and

you're just going, "Well, you were just

on a team. You see this as a team game,

right? And you want to present your team

in the correct light."

>> Oh, the new new post, a post regarding

two individuals arrested for throwing

handmade bombs outside of New York City

Mayor Zuhan Mandani's home failed to

reflect the gravity of the incident.

thereby breaching the editorial

standards we require for all our

reporting. It has therefore been

deleted.

>> But see how skillful this is, Joe. This

is gaslighting again. They're saying

their mistake was to what?

>> Look at the first guy. Donut operator.

Nah. You retards got called out for

trying to downplay actual terrorism and

now you're backpedaling. Yep.

>> Who's that second guy? He's really

smart.

>> Didn't fail to reflect the gravity of

the situation. This guy named

Constantine. I think he's on that

trigonometry show. Uh reflect the

gravity of the situation. It failed to

accurately communicate who was

responsible, who the intended victims

were, and where to the the blame for the

attempted terrorist attack lay. In other

words, you didn't accidentally downplay

the serious seriousness of it. You

deliberately misrepresented what

happened to conceal the truth from the

public. Well, that's how AI would say

it.

>> I still write my own [ __ ] John.

>> I know you do, but I like the donut

operator guy.

Yeah, I know. He's more your cup of tea.

>> That's how I like to talk.

>> That is what happened though, right?

>> That is what happened. But that's what's

really scary about this world we're

living in now right now because we're

we're so ideologically captured both

right and left. Everyone in this country

looks at this administration as an

existential threat to democracy itself

and our way of life and, you know, fill

in the blank whatever marginalized

groups are all going to be round up and

put in interment camps. This is this is

the narrative that the the most radical

of the left have about that the sky is

falling because Trump's in office.

>> But it's also as well what people on the

left don't want to acknowledge is the

dangers of Islamism, right? when they

see people do these kind of horrific

terror attacks, when they see for

instance what happened in the London

Bridge terror attacks in 2019 or what

happened in Manchester in the Ariana

Grande concert where Islamic terrorists

bombed a Ariana Grande concert and the

majority of the audience were little

girls were young girls and they say,

"Oh, that this happened because you know

they were marginalized and they felt

angry and this is what people do when

you push them to one side and they don't

have a means in order to how to express

themselves. You're going no what this is

is an ideology. It's an ideology which

believes that our civilization, our way

of life is evil, but also they want to

establish their form of radical Islam

across the globe. They want to create a

global Islamic caliphate and they will

do whatever it takes in order to achieve

that goal. But people in the west they

can't understand that because it's so

alien for how we see how we see things.

We believe human life is precious. We

believe the most important thing is

human life. They don't. They believe the

cause is more important than your life.

And we can't understand that because

we're raised in a world that is

fundamentally Christian even though we

might not be. We still have Christian

values. We had a guest on the show, a

wonderful historian called Tom Holland,

and he explained this to us that even if

you're not Christian, even if you think

you were raised by atheist parents, you

were still raised with Christian values.

That's the soup in which we live. That's

what the water in which we swim. So this

way of life that these people have, this

ideology is so alien to us that we can't

understand it. But also we don't want to

understand it because if you start to

actually investigate what these people

believe, what their ideology is, you

realize that we are not all the same and

these people believe something very very

different and then we're going to have a

very uncomfortable conversation of how

do you tackle this cuz can you have

western liberal democratic values and

Islamism and people who are Islamists in

the same society and the answer is you

can't

>> and I think it's really important your

point the difference between Islamists

and Muslims.

>> Yes.

>> The Muslims are these Gulf State people.

Muslims are these people in Dubai and

Saudi Arabia. Islamists are the ones

that want the caliphate.

>> Yeah. Right.

>> But then you have the crazy Christians

and that thing that I sent you, the

Yahoo thing that we talked about

yesterday with Shelonburgger.

>> The Yahoo thing is nuts. So these

military leaders, so this this comes

from one of the non-commissioned

officers who went to a briefing. He goes

to a briefing and they inform him that

you shouldn't be scared because this is

all because President Trump is anointed

by Jesus and this is to bring about

Armageddon so that Jesus returns to

Earth. This isn't a [ __ ] military

briefing. One such note included an

anecdote from a non-commissioned officer

who reported that their commander had

urged us to tell our troops this war was

all a part of God's divine plan. And he

specifically referenced numerous

citations out of the book of Revelations

referring to Armageddon and the eminent

return of Jesus Christ. This is [ __ ]

crazy. Um he said this morning our

command So this is this is an officer

who's talking about this. This morning

our commander opened up the combat

readiness status briefing by urging us

to not be afraid as to what was

happening with our combat operations in

Iran. He said, "President Trump has been

anointed by Jesus to light the signal

fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and

mark his return to Earth." He said he

had a big grit on his face when he said

all this, which made his message seem

even more crazy.

>> Well, that's reassuring.

>> That's that Well, this is this is the

scary arm of the the right. This is the

scariest arm of the right. The the

people that think that this is one of

the main reasons, the Makabe people who

think this is the main reason to protect

Israel. It's a part of God's plan. You

know, Israel is where Jesus is going to

return. He's going to return to

Jerusalem.

>> Yikes.

>> Yeah. I've never really understood that.

Like, I think you can argue for you can

be pro- Israel for pragmatic reasons.

This religious stuff is a little bit

weird to me. Well, this but the problem

is you've got fanatics like the

Islamists, but you've also got these

>> Christian hard right Christian

nationalists that really believe that

this is a part of biblical prophecy

>> and that they this is book of

revelations. It's about to go down and

they they want it to go down.

>> This is [ __ ] terrifying. This is

really interesting for us because in in

in the UK, Christianity has be dig

fanged to the point where there's a

trans flag on practically every church.

So this idea of having these hardcore

right-wing fundamentalist Christians, we

we just don't experience that.

>> We don't have that really.

>> Yeah. It's like can't any everybody live

in the middle? Why why do you have to go

all the way over to we got to start

Armageddon and Jesus Jesus is going to

come back on a white horse? You ever

read the book of Revelations?

>> Yeah, I got really into it. The book of

Revelations is kooky. You know, they

they really believe that Jesus is going

to return on a horse.

>> Why a horse?

>> A white horse?

>> It's a bit racist

>> a little bit. I mean, I don't get

I don't

>> Can we have a diverse horse at least for

>> a horse of color joke?

>> You want me to read you the passage? Cuz

I I saved it cuz it's kind of kooky. Um

because it's one of those things where

you just go, "Wait, who [ __ ] believes

this? Is this is is this really what you

think is going to go down because

someone wrote it down on paper 2,000

years ago in

>> in ancient Hebrew. Uh it says, "Heaven

opens and Christ appears on a white

horse to judge and wage war called

faithful and true with eyes like fire,

many crowns and the name King of King

and Lord of Lords." Just imagine it's

2026 and you're like, "That's the

blueprint, boys."

But this is just as scary. And

especially for people that are Muslims,

right? Or or anybody who lives in the

Middle East, like they this is more

important than human life. This is more

important than international law. This

is like in the eyes of the crazy on the

right.

>> This is the problem. So it's like it's

not it's not like one side. It's like

all good over here. We have to fight

against the Islamist. Now we we've got

some cooks over here, too. If if that

guy is for real and that guy's in a

position of power and he's really having

combat readiness meetings where he's

telling people that we have to bomb and

start Armageddon so Jesus can come back

on a white horse

>> [ __ ] yo

>> like that's kooky.

>> The thing that is probably reassuring

somewhat is like I don't President Trump

doesn't strike me as one of those

people. He's not.

>> He's not. Right.

>> Whereas the leader of Iran is

>> right. But people in the military I

think are as well. Yeah. and people in

high positions in the military, I think

maybe as well. If if this guy can give

that kind of a meeting and and that kind

of a speech at a meeting, that that's a

little terrifying. And if I was over

there, I'd be freaking the [ __ ] out. If

I'd be like, "This is your plan.

>> I'm cannon fodder so that Jesus can come

back. My body's going to be part of the

the [ __ ] signal fire."

>> Let's be honest though, it wouldn't be

that much of a plot twist for 2026,

would it?

>> Right. It would be the final, you know,

episode 10, Game of Thrones season 6.

>> Yeah, it's I mean, it is getting [ __ ]

what? And that's when the aliens come.

Maybe that's what they're doing.

>> You know, the the whole thing is uh it's

there's not a sane person on either

side.

>> The whole thing is nuts. And it's like

it does it it doesn't make sense to

anybody. And that's what scares the [ __ ]

out of me.

>> Yeah. It's the thing that scares me is

what Constantin has has addressed is I

don't get worried unless I can't see a

way out or the way that this is

resolved. And like you said, the coin is

in the air

>> and I'm slightly of more more

pessimistic nature. He's more of an

optimist. But as I I look at it and I

think to myself, this could go so wrong,

>> so badly wrong that it could make it

could make Iraq look like an absolute

picnic in comparison.

>> Yeah. Well, especially if terrorist

attacks start popping off over in

America, like major ones,

>> you know, and that that could be bad for

everything. That could be bad for

freedom of speech. That could be bad for

rights.

>> That could be bad for, you know, in

incorporation of digital ID. That would

be a good way to push that through.

There's a lot of stuff that would go

through that would radically change just

like the Patriot Act did. Patriot Act

radically changed the freedoms that we

have in America and the overreach that

the government is allowed to

>> You're so right. But we we only just

started being allowed to take water back

on the [ __ ] planes. Right.

>> Right.

>> Maybe this is what it's all about. It's

so you can't take water on a plane.

>> You decide to let people keep their

sneakers on. Wasn't that going on for a

while?

>> Yeah. You can't can't have that. We had

one [ __ ] shoe bomber. That Richard

[ __ ] that one guy. One guy.

>> And there was once, do you remember you

weren't allowed to bring scissors on?

Like a small scissors. I can't remember

the comedian who said this, but he went,

"You know what? If you take over an

entire plane armed with nothing but

water and some small scissors, you

deserve the plane."

>> Well, here's the thing. Like, you can

bring skateboards, but you can't bring a

pool queue.

>> So, it doesn't make any sense. Like,

there's the like I I [ __ ] you up with a

skateboard. If you give me, I'll [ __ ] a

lot of people up with a skateboard, you

know? Like, think about what kind of

damage you could do with that big heavy

ass thing,

>> you know?

>> Yeah. It's just And the the worry is

when it comes to all of this is you look

at these guys and you go, do you have a

vision for what is actually going to

happen,

>> right? But I do think they do though. I

do think they have a vision. What I want

to find out is what that vision is.

>> I hope you're right, but I don't think

you are.

>> You don't think I am? Uh I I think it's

very possible that they thought this

would be over much quicker. They thought

taking out the I look look just look at

the success that they had in the initial

bombing of Iran, right? The initial

bombing they supposedly decapitated

their ability to make nuclear bombs or

at least stopped it for a long time. And

there was a lot of concessions that the

Iranians were willing to submit to that

they never submitted to under Obama or

anybody else.

>> And that wasn't enough,

>> right? So the the problem is when you're

like we were talking about Desert Storm,

you get away with something that works

really well. You're like, "We know what

we're doing."

>> And then you bite off more than you

could chew.

>> Yeah. And especially once you've done

Venezuela, you feel like you're kind of

>> you're on a roll,

>> right?

>> But yeah, I I see your point. I see your

point. Um I do think though, I mean,

from what I read, uh both Kushner and

Witoff both said that the Iranians were

not playing ball actually. Um

>> Okay, which is why they went in. So

obviously if you think about it given

how long it takes for US assets to get

to the region this decision would have

been made weeks ago at the very least

right and that's because from what I

understand the negotiators like Iran

isn't actually playing ball what they're

doing is they're claiming publicly that

they're willing to make concessions but

when we sit down with them that's not

what's happening because all they're

doing is stalling for time.

>> That makes more sense. And so if you

were worried that someone was in the

middle of actually getting their uranium

up to a point where you enrich it to

nuclear bomb levels,

>> right? But I think a lot of people

misunderstand that in the sense that

like um I think it's based on my

understanding it's totally false to

claim that they were like about to

develop a nuclear they were not.

>> Well, you've seen the compilation of

Netanyahu saying Iran is two weeks away

from developing a nuclear bomb all the

way back to the 80s. Have you seen that

compilation?

>> I haven't. No. It's wonderful,

>> right?

>> See if you can find it, Jamie. Because

it's so it's so kooky. I mean, he's been

talking about this for [ __ ] ever,

right? They're that close. They're two

weeks away. They're two weeks away.

They're two weeks away.

>> And you know, maybe they are,

>> you know, and maybe Stuckset put a dent

in that, right? They they used that um

virus program to kill all the computer

programs that were running

>> their nuclear program over there.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I don't know that

they were ever like two weeks from

having a a payload that was ready to be

delivered to wherever, but they are they

were enriching uranium to to levels that

you only enrich if you want nuclear

weapons, right?

>> Uh and so I guess the question for Trump

is like, do I allow this to continue?

And do I have to wait until they've got

the [ __ ] bomb on a launcher waiting

to to go? Right

>> here it is.

>> Yeah,

>> let's hear it. You've probably heard

this line before. Iran has never given

up its quest for nuclear weapons and the

missiles to deliver them.

>> That's because Israeli Prime Minister

Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying this

for more than 30 years, claiming Iran is

close to having

>> nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons,

nuclear weapons, atomic bombs.

>> In 1992, as a member of parliament,

Netanyahu addresses the Knesset. He says

within 3 to 5 years we can assume that

Iran will become autonomous in its

ability to develop and produce a nuclear

bomb. 3 years later in his book Fighting

Terrorism he repeats the same time frame

3 to 5 years.

>> Thank you Mr. Chairman.

>> Fast forward to 2002. Netanyahu

testifies before a US congressional

committee actively calling for the

invasion of Iraq. Uh, are there any

other nations that you would recommend

that the United States launch preemptive

attacks upon? At this point,

>> the two nations that are vying competing

with each other who will be the first to

achieve nuclear weapons uh is Iraq and

Iran.

>> The invasion happens months later.

>> You keep going on this

>> are found in Iraq.

This is a fragment of a 2009 US State

Department cable released by Wikileaks.

Netanyahu tells members of Congress that

Iran is one or two years away from being

capable of developing nuclear weapons.

>> They're online.

>> It's 2012 and Netanyahu is holding up

his infamous cartoon bomb at the UN

General Assembly.

>> By next spring, at most by next summer

at current enrichment rates, they will

have finished the medium enrichment

and move on to the final stage.

From there, it's only a few months,

possibly a few weeks

before they get enough enriched uranium

for the first bomb.

>> And now, 33 years after Netanyahu's

first so-called imminent warning, Israel

attacks Iran.

>> And if not stopped, Iran could produce a

nuclear weapon in a very short time. It

could be a year. It could be within a

few months, less than a year. That's

despite the US director of national

intelligence saying Iran isn't building

a nuclear weapon months earlier.

>> Iran lied.

>> But for Netanyahu

>> big time,

>> the slogan has been the same for

decades.

>> Like how he said big time alazer,

>> we get it.

>> Yeah. So, but here's the thing. Maybe

he's kind of right, but they haven't

ever done it

>> right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they certainly

are enriching uranium to a point where

it's more than you need for power.

>> Right. So why why are they doing that?

>> Right.

>> Right. And so I guess for Trump the

calculation is like I'm in my last term.

I might as well, you know, roll the

dice. Go go go and deal with it now.

Could end very badly as we've discussed.

>> Yeah.

>> There is a way that it ends. Well, we

will see what happens. And we I I just

honestly don't think anyone knows how

it's going to happen.

>> I don't think anyone knows. But you How

can you? So many moving parts. It's like

if I ask you who's, you know, Dana White

just announced the UFC card for the

White House, right? Yeah.

>> Who's going to win Justin Gai?

You you are not going to say this is

what's going to happen,

>> right? You don't know

>> cuz nobody knows. Yeah.

>> Right. And this is like a hundred times

more complicated than that,

>> right? Yeah.

>> Yeah. At least.

>> At least. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Probably several thousand times

more. So, it's a it's a gamble. And you

got to I I mean, you've got to think if

this goes badly,

this is legacy defining for all

involved.

>> For all involved.

>> Yeah.

>> This will this will whatever you've done

up to that point, it's like Blair and

Bush.

>> Mhm.

>> Tony Blair, people forget in our

country, Tony Blair was immensely

popular

and then Iraq happened. And the only if

you mention Tony Blair now, the only

thing anyone remembers is Iraq. So for

context, Tony Blair was one of the

people. Tony Blair is a hero in Kosovo

because he effectively stopped the large

part of the reason the war in Kosovo

ended was Tony Blair. I think there was

something I saw a story that kids were

people were naming their kids Tony

Blair, right?

>> They regret it now.

>> He was one of the central people in the

Northern Ireland peace deal bringing

peace to Northern Ireland for people of

our age who grew up in the UK.

We never thought we'd see peace in

Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland was a

glorified civil war and it had been for

however long right the way from the 60s

the 70s the 80s and he was one of those

people instrumental in bringing peace to

Northern Ireland. It was a miracle. It

was an it was a total miracle that that

happened the Good Friday Agreement. And

it was other people as well like Mo

Mullen etc. So you look at Blair he was

on a roll. He he must have thought to

himself, everything I do turns to gold

here. I have achieved peace in Kosovo,

peace in Northern Ireland. Why can't I

invade Iraq and Afghanistan and install

democracies and bring peace to the

Middle East? I've done it to Northern

Ireland. No one ever thought that could

happen.

>> So this will whichever way it goes, I

think it will be defining for the people

involved. If it goes well, this is like

the biggest, you know, uh, Hail Mary

touchdown in history. In some ways, goes

badly,

that will define this. I certainly from

an outside perspective, that's what I

see. It's going to define the the

presidency. I mean, I I don't know how

you can argue with that really. Can you?

>> No. No, I don't know how you can argue

with it either. But that's what that's

what's so interesting about people that

absolutely know how it's going to play

out.

>> You know, you don't. And then there's

also uh the New York Times thing. I sent

it to you. Did they change that, Jamie,

or did they take it down?

>> I I just sent it to you.

>> So, what does it say? So, does New York

Times still have it up?

>> It's from a day ago, it says.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Crowd gathered on Monday. They didn't

say which Monday.

>> Yeah,

>> it was a Monday. It just It was just six

[ __ ] years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> Um Yeah. that and then again this is

this is the problem where everything is

polarized and politicized.

>> Well, I think your point about people

wanting to believe something is so true.

>> If if if whenever anything like this

happens, you instantly get these camps,

right? You've got the anti-war camp,

you've got the pro-war camp, you've got

the this camp, you've got the

anti-Israel camp, you've got the

pro-Israel camp, and everyone like

information is no longer about

information,

>> right?

>> It's just foder for your information war

that you're fighting.

>> Exactly. And then on top of that, and

look, this is a kind of I'm cutting my

own balls off here because I I make good

money from posting stuff on X, right?

But the monetization of content has made

things different. And we can all see it

in our feed, right? Yeah.

>> You've seen this. I mean, you must see

it.

>> So now you have people who are basically

like I go on Twitter on X to express my

opinion

>> and to engage in discussion with people

who have a different opinion. That's

what I do, right? But there are now lots

and lots of people who go to work. They

go to X to work,

>> right?

>> And that's what they're doing now. The

incentive structure of that is not

conducive to a healthy debate,

>> right,

>> at all. What you've got now is people

going, "Okay, a thing has happened. What

is my Venezuela got in? It was Israel's

fault. Okay, here's here's some content

about that."

>> And it's no longer authentic

communication, unfortunately.

>> And that's just actual people doing it,

>> right? Yeah.

>> And then you've got AI on top of that.

And then you've got foreign bot farms

>> and foreign governments trying to

influence this [ __ ]

>> There's this one currently popular page

that I follow that's clearly AI. You

mean you could just read it and tell

that it's AI and it gets immense amounts

of engagement. Heavy heavily right-wing

like really well written, you know,

funny,

>> you know, and you could but not but

yeah, but not human. Not not funny. real

funny but funny technically funny. You

know what I'm saying? Like tech insults

that are technically funny but for

whatever reason you don't digest it.

It's like remember that stuff get fat

but it just went right through you like

diarrhea.

>> That's what it's like.

>> It's got no soul. There's no soul to

>> it. That's just one. I mean how many how

many of them exist and how many state

actors are running bot farms?

>> Yeah.

>> So it's we don't know what the [ __ ] is

going on at any given time. No,

>> but it's the incentives that have become

perverted because it's no longer like

Constantin said about expressing opinion

or wanting to get involved in dialogue

or debate. What you've got now is people

like you said earning their livingings.

So if you know if you need to pay your

mortgage at the end of the month or you

need to pay a team or you have a

company, you're not going to put out a

nuance take. Why would you? It's going

to get minimal engagement. You are going

to put out something that is going to

trigger, that is going to be incendury,

that is going to drive engagement, that

is going to get people upset or angry

and agree or agree with you and

therefore more likely to share. So

that's the content you're going to put

out cuz that's the content that's going

to make you the most do

>> 100%.

>> And then you have people that are

pushing for this idea that no one should

be able to post online unless you're

using your real name

>> and you show some sort of an ID,

>> which is also kind of crazy. Yeah,

there's downsides to that for sure, but

I also I do understand why they're

saying it.