This episode was supposed to be our

second episode of the year. We had taped

it and and I loved taping it. It was one

of my favorite in a while. It was all

ready to go. And then the Trump

administration attacked Venezuela and

arrested the country's president. And

then the news cycle just accelerated and

never stopped.

It just it never felt like the right

time for it. And at the same time, I

don't think this episode, which is about

gathering and community, I don't think

this is a break from politics. I think

this is actually in some ways the core

of politics.

This is somehow both not about what we

are going through and absolutely about

what we are going through.

My motivation for this episode was a

little bit more personal. One of my

resolutions this year is to spend more

time hosting to make those gatherings

more meaningful to to be a better member

of my own community. And so the person

I'd wanted to talk with about that is

Pria Parker, who's the author of this

beautiful book, The Art of Gathering,

How We Meet and Why It Matters, and the

Substack Group Life. And she just thinks

about gathering and hosting and

community in a different way than anyone

I've met.

The way that the Zoran Mdani campaign

thought about community and built

community, which is one of its most

beautiful aspects, was partially built

on on on her work and her advice.

2026 is going to be a long year. These

next years are going to be long years.

I'm tempted to say we're going to need

to take breaks and and that is true, but

we're also just going to need each

other. And so thinking about how we pull

the people we love closer

and how we are more in community rather

than less, more together rather than

more alone is, I think, as essential as

any political or civic discipline or

personal discipline could possibly be

right now.

So I want to share this episode now

because it is both not at all the right

time for it and absolutely the perfect

time for it. As always, my email escline

shown times.com.

>> Pria Parker, welcome to the show.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> So, I wanted to begin with treating the

decision not to gather as rational, not

to host as rational.

What makes gathering hard, intimidating?

Why why do people choose because we all

choosing not to do it?

We are busy. We are many of us

overworked. We are constantly tethered

to our phones. We are suffering from a

child care crisis. We no longer live

with intergenerational families that

allow us to also intergenerationally

gather. We have beliefs about what we

need to do or be in order to host other

people. That by the way are very modern

beliefs. Our ancestors, whichever

community you come from, if you go long

enough back, were gathering. Whether

their cave was clean or whether they had

a boil on their shoulder or they had a

overbearing mother-in-law, they were

gathering. And so in modern life,

there's so many reasons that we don't we

choose not to gather or we feel like we

can't gather and it is keeping us apart

from one another. We also overemphasize

the right and the space uh of the

individual and particularly in this

country this sort of hyperindividualized

context of self-care and self-help

allows us to first focus on what the

needs of the self are or the perceived

needs of the self are before we begin to

even think about the group.

>> Say more about that idea of the

perceived needs of the self. Well, we

perceive that if I have my [ __ ]

together, if I have the right step

counts over the course of the day, if I

have my right sugar intake, if I'm

making sure that my hypoglycemic index

is on the right count and I, you know,

walk 20 minutes after I eat, all of

these sort of decades of apps and books

that help us optimize the self, right?

We literally have a self-help

revolution. But self-help doesn't

actually help us answer the questions of

our shared life. And what we actually

need is also tools for group help.

>> I thought a lot about the

rhetoric around boundaries. It feels

like it became everywhere in the past 5

to 10 years and how important good

boundaries are. I'm curious as somebody

who thinks about mediation and and

gathering how you have thought about the

the sort of boundary revolution. So I'm

a conflict resolution facilitator of

groups. And in group life, you know, a

group and gatherings, people think it's

all about the Wii, right? It's only the

Wii. But that is a cult, right? Group

life is actually about the dance between

the E, the Wii, and the I. And so if you

have too much Wii, it's a cult. And if

you have too much I, it's a federation.

And so part of group life is the is the

tools we have to make sure we have

enough voice as an individual. And then

also the tools we have to choose to give

up some amount of freedom to be part of

something greater than ourselves, right?

Even if that's practically like, yeah, I

don't usually eat cheese, but I'm going

to come over to your house and eat what

you're going to have me have me serve

me. And boundaries at some level is the

healthy sort of line drawing for the

space of the eye, right? But in

particularly in therapy, and I love

therapy. I'm in therapy. Therapy has

helped many people in my family change

their lives. And we are using therapy to

draw boundaries over bridges. We are

using therapy, the excuse of therapy to

focus on separation rather than

connection. And versus the tools of

repair, versus the tools of the mess of

relationship, versus the tools of

thinking about how do we actually

apologize and and and alter one another.

By the way, most therapists would say

this is not actually how we mean to use

boundaries, right? So, so part of what

is happening when we are overusing

boundaries is we are isolating ourselves

more and more and more. So, we have

we're going to end up with, you know,

door dashing our food, sitting alone in

our twin bed watching Netflix. And you

then you don't have the messiness of

actually being in relationship with

really annoying other people, right?

With the friction of other people. And

by the way, this this sort of vision of

door dashing, Instagram scrolling,

mindless Netflix watching is not really

also a a ci a citizen. It's a subject.

>> I've become obsessed with this quote

over the the past year from Bernard

Crick. It's in this book called In

Defense of Politics. And he says that

politics involves genuine relationships

with people who are genuinely other

people, not objects for our philanthropy

or tasks for our redemption.

But contained in that is something that

you're getting at which is other people

are difficult

>> and also other people are are are

inherent to the interaction. Right. When

I when I listen to you I'm thought I

think of Martin Booer and I vow no when

I when I listen to that quote I I think

of Martin Buber right

>> and and and this idea you know I'm a

conflict resolution facilitator. my my

mentor Hal Saunders, the first book he

ever made me read was Martin Buber's

writings and the relationship between I

and thou and the entire and and the the

idea in my field of dialogue which is

relationships get out of whack when

relationships become an I it right an

object of my charity or a task for my

redemption and dialogue which is the

real consideration of other people moves

the relationship from an I it to an I

vow it restores the relationship it

restores us to each For those of us

asking for a friend who have never made

it through Booer's I thou, what is I

thou versus I it?

>> So I thou is an idea that the

relationship between you and me is is is

sacred. It's divine that we each and by

the way this is in many cultures is the

same. There's a there's a Hindu version

of this that basically every interaction

between us is a relationship that and

whether you believe in God or not is the

has the potential to be holy to be

sacred. And when uh uh when I turn you

into an it into an object that basically

we we've broken that sacred interaction.

>> What turns me into an it for you?

>> Um

hosting a party where I need bodies in

the room

versus hosting a party where I deeply

think about who I want to be there

because I care about them.

>> So it's instrumentalizing other people.

>> It's instrumentalizing. It's

transactionalizing. Mhm.

>> It's making it's using people rather

than making them of use. I'll give a

simple example and you know and I think

right now when people are thinking about

how do we gather and a lot of the

reasons I think people don't gather

because a lot of the gatherings are

vague and diluted and you'd actually

rather be home Netflixing and chilling.

I saw this recently uh actually on

Instagram. There was a woman who was

hosting a um baby shower, but the baby

shower was all of her friends coming

over with sponges, listening to music,

scrubbing her walls, like having the

best time. They were actually feeling

like they were of use to her, right? She

needed a clean house. She was completely

overwhelmed. They came over rocking and

like it went totally viral because it's

very moving. They weren't being used.

They're being of use. I want to be part.

I want to know how I can help you in

this time of need. I want to know that I

can help. A lot of people don't even

think anyone needs them. It's so lonely.

>> There's so much I want to follow up on

there, but I want to talk about

cleanliness for a minute. You were

talking about, you know, we invited

people over to the cave, whether the

cave was clean or not. When I think

about what stops me from hosting, what

stops me from being more hospitable,

what stops me from doing more gathering?

and and this podcast is somewhat uh

motivated by my own New Year's

resolution to try to do more

>> more gathering

>> more gathering it it's actually that the

standards not just that I have set but

that I feel like the culture around me

sets the people around me believe in

that I believe in

there is so much work

in the house in the schedule in the

cooking and whatever just to get to the

point where I feel like I can have

anybody over that it's intimidating.

It's like I want to see and be with

other human beings with kids. It's hard

to go out. But if the expectation

is that everything has to be perfect

before anybody arrives,

>> you will never gather. I mean I actually

think we are living in a era where no

one has the same expectations. People

are confused. We all in traditional

societies shared norms. Right? If you if

you go to a a southern Indian, you go to

a breminical red thread tying ceremony,

everyone knows what that means. Everyone

cries because they understand and all of

their previous generations did it in the

exact same way. Right? I remember

reading in around 2006 the UN said it

was the first year in the history of

humanity where more people lived in

cities than villages, right? Which

basically means that people are

uprooted. I mean, I'm biracial. I'm

bicultural. I'm biracial. I grew up in

two different households that were also

bo both joint households. And I can tell

you like most families are making stuff

up. Two of our best friends once we

started becoming I'll give a simple

example. Once we started becoming really

close with each other years and years

and years ago, it was the first time

they ever invited us to their home for

dinner. And my husband and I

showed up and we were dressed to the

nines and uh we wanted to honor them.

>> You guys are intimidating. We often are.

We wanted to honor them. We both come

from cultures on both sides that like

feel like you dress for yourself, you

dress for others. It's a sign of

respect. There's a there's a boundary

between in-house and out of house. Like

we we we love it. And our like best

friends opened the doors and they were

in their pajamas. And we both looked

across this threshold and we all burst

into laughter. But actually both sides

were honoring the other side. for them,

they would only be in their pajamas for

whom they're actually letting into their

life. And so the good news is we have

totally different expectations of what a

gathering should be. I actually don't

think everybody assumes that the room or

the house should be totally clean. And

part of the beauty and the power of

modern life is you get to decide. So I

have a um there's a woman uh who wrote

into me, her name is Ryan. She she and

her friends have a gathering that's

called the halfass potluck. Okay? They

do it every week. Um, she and her

closest friends, there's no holiday,

there's no birthday, there's no

milestone. They gather every week. And

the rules are simple. Bring whatever is

in your fridge or pick something up on

the way. Wear sweats. Don't clean. Use

paper plates. They eat what appears.

They pile into the couch, talk, laugh.

Everyone's home by 8:30.

The most successful shift in my own

community since moving to to New York

has been there's another couple that uh

have kids around our kids age and we

spend all the time on the weekend

co-aring and we sort of have a name for

it. But what emerged in it over time was

a rule that you do not have to clean

your house

>> or put on real clothes before you all

get together.

>> Such a relief.

>> And so then you can like hang out at 8

a.m. when the kids are actually up and

before you've done anything. And it so

how so somehow in that we freed

ourselves from expectations that would

have made this much harder.

>> It's a beautiful example.

>> How do you free yourself from those

expectations?

>> Exactly. Exactly what you're doing,

right? You're you're you're you're

feeling a need. You and your wife are

feeling a need, right? Which is company,

I imagine, AC in the weekend, which is

people who aren't going to be totally

annoyed if your boys are, you know,

running around and being what loud. So

you have a need. Then at some level you

invite someone with a shared need. Oh,

this couple also has this. You've it

sounds like you've given it a name,

right? Names create structures. Name

creates stories. You've actually given

it a wardrobe, right? No real clothes.

That actually creates context. It

creates permission. You're creating this

permissions around you. And so often and

then what was the other rule?

>> No cleaning.

>> No cleaning.

>> No cleaning. Right? So part of what

you're doing is just you're doing it

intuitively. Like this is not rocket

science. Every gathering I think of as a

temporary tiny social contract. But the

part of the modern life that's both

beautiful and like terrifying is we

create the social contract.

>> One thing you focus on in the book that

felt very real to me is the discomfort

many of us have imposing structure on

others.

It feels somehow inhospitable for me to

invite people over to my house and then

tell them what to do.

>> I would not recommend doing that.

Don't you?

>> I think you I think you need to prime

them well before.

>> Got it. Tell them what to do before they

come.

>> Yes. Yes. I'm serious. I'm serious. Like

part of modern life is like we are so

confused, right? About your question of

like most people don't want structure to

tell people what to do when they get in

their home, right? Um a woman wrote me a

few years ago. Her name was Robin and

she and her husband moved to a block in

outside of Chicago and she wanted to be

part of like a neighborhood that hung

out. And as she got there a few weeks

in, she realized that like this was not

a neighborhood that hung out and she

wanted to get people together. But if

she had just invited eight strangers

that never met to come over and then

like talk to each other, it may not

work. So she started priming them. She

she sent her six and eight-year-old

girls out on scooters to hang a paper

coffee cup on their door, save the

coffee date. Then a week later, they

they went around again on scooters and

she went to Vista Print. She told me,

she was like this, I I she really

thought about this and there's

invitations and it was like come to our

house for bagel and brew and if you'd

like to come and there's three questions

uh the please tell us your email, the

number of years you've lived on this

block and two interesting facts about

you or three interesting facts about

you. She practiced what I call response,

right? That's actually she's creating

buy in and then these cards start coming

back. My dream is to go to Poland to

visit my people. I once delivered a

baby, not ours. And when they came, they

were given name tags with the number of

years they lived on the block. And then

a second name tag with three interesting

facts, but it was of someone else, like

another neighbor. So they all mingle as

casual. It's in the morning as coffee

and bagels. And then right about people

are about to leave. She brings out a

cake

>> with the number 342 on it. And someone

says, "That's the collective years we've

all lived on this block." And like years

later, she changed the culture of that

block. But if she had just said, "Come

over and I'm gonna make you go around

and tell three interesting facts about

yourself." They'd be like, you know,

buzzer off. Who Who are you to do that?

>> I had two reactions listening to that.

One was I felt myself clench up with the

amount of work.

>> Okay.

>> And the other was what an incredible act

of generosity. Like what a gift to put

that much work and intentionality

into connecting other people. It's a

deeply generous act and I would say what

clenches you up did not clench Robin up.

She loved doing it. She loved sending

her girls out from those scooters. She

loved designing those invitations. So

you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do

something that that clenches you up.

Host a gathering that you want to

attend. Simple examples. Again, we this

can look so many ways. It's like easing

the barrier of entry of hosting. Pablo

Johnson. He he passed away uh almost

exactly a year ago, January 26, 2025.

And somebody who from my group life

community sent me this sent me an email

and a video of these dinners that he had

hosted around his table in New Orleans

for 20 years. These were simple dinners.

It happened every Monday night. It was

the same menu every Monday night. Red

beans and cornbread. He would literally

it he did it around the table that his

grandmother left him. He it would

literally there was no no table was ever

the same people twice. And it was

everybody from his neighbors to maybe

visiting actors filming a TV to somebody

who literally ran into the coffee shop.

And I posted this on Instagram and it

went totally viral. It was the most

viral post I ever like posted at that

time. And I what was so interesting to

me was when people posted it, the

majority of the people said, "I wish

someone would invite me to something

like this." And I'm thinking, "Hostess,

host it. You host the dinner." Right?

Why this sort of assumption? It's like I

Why Why aren't I getting these

invitations? It's like, "No, no, no, no.

You host the red beans and cornbread

dinner." Like, it's enough. Just start.

Just start. We're all sort of sitting

there being like, I wish I was invited.

It's like host. One of the most powerful

ways to even especially if you've moved

to a new place to begin to feel like you

belong to a place is to host. When

people move to other countries, my

biggest advice to them, host something

in the first week. What if you're

terrified to start? You're you're a very

graceful person. I've I've known you a

while.

>> I really The art of gathering. It's

like, you know, the movie Ratatouille,

anyone can cook. Anyone can gather and

start.

>> I really feel strongly that as much as

Ratatouille pretends that is its

message, that is not its message.

>> Exactly. Exactly.

>> Anybody with incredible gifts can cook.

Any generationally talented rat can

cook.

>> Okay. You've watched and analyzed that

movie and I don't disagree with you. But

but but but at some deep level like

we're almost over complicating it.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. Like our ancestors in any

community that we pursue did this and so

start like first of all I feel fear

every time I feel nervous every time I

feel like is anyone going to show up? I

feel sick to my stomach. I start

snapping at you know my most beloveds.

It's really normal to feel is that it's

that being willing to hold that anxiety

and be like oh I must care about this.

So the first is to say like hey if

you're feeling some amount of fear

that's cuz you care about this. how how

interesting and build, you know, build

the ability to hold some of that that

anxiety. But the second is literally

start with a g start with something you

think would be delightful because that's

going to give you some energy. Co-host

something with people. You have a I know

of a guy who got a champagne magnum. He

worked at an ad agency like years ago.

His boss didn't drink and so he like

inherited this like massive bottle of

champagne. He's like, "What the heck am

I going to do with this?" and he real

and he he invited eight friends and uh

the bottle uh to share it and the year

of the bottle was 2004 and the price of

entry to the party was to bring a story

from your life from the year 2004.

>> That's cool.

>> It makes the night. Michelle Lri, I read

about this in the book. He um he's a he

travels a lot for his work and he wanted

to trim his tree, you know, dress his

tree for the holidays, for Christmas,

and he invited 12 friends who didn't all

know each other to send to come to to

send two moments of happiness, two

photos, moments of happiness from their

year ahead of time. When they arrived on

the table was like scissors, ornaments,

and their photos, their moments of

happiness. And inherent, oh wow, you

sold a house this year. Wow, I didn't

know you looked so great in those

tights. Oh my goodness, I didn't know

you went underwater scuba diving. It

created the context and the conversation

for the whole night he can kind of

disappear and the rest of the night

ornament making then conversations about

the past year. It it it's it's like a

play. It kind of it it it it

goes itself it goes its own way and

people then feel like they're also part

of it. We've sort of been talking from

the perspective of you are hosting or

attending a gathering which implies

you've been invited to one or you have

the people to invite to one. Uh it's a

pretty notorious statistic that in 2021

almost half of Americans reported having

three or fewer close friends.

There are many people maybe who would

like to be invited to things who aren't.

Uh

what do you recommend to people who

Yeah. Yeah, this would be great if they

were invited. This would be great if

they felt like they had the people to

invite. But they are first have to cross

a a chasm

of social connection

>> to go into your first of all. Yes,

absolutely. If you feel a need and a

desire to have connection or community,

first of all, like protect that. Don't

be embarrassed of it. You're not weird

or like it's not cuz you're like not

strong enough. Like that is a yearning.

That is a beautiful yearning to protect

and to feed and to grow. And then look

into your community. I mean, by the way,

this is what public spaces are for. This

is what libraries are for, right?

Palaces for the people. Eric

Kleinenberg's uh beautiful book about

how libraries serve as this, you know,

really important social third space.

Most libraries have public programming.

Again, go meet up. By the way, there are

many institutions that have free

programming where I'm not talking about

going to a museum, going to a a a class.

And so looking at places where there's

pre-existing community, but that's open

to the public, right? The whole purpose

is like we want more people. Um

presence and showing up and being

consistent and going over and over and

over again actually just builds trust,

right? Proximity builds trust. And so

going and treating it, highlighting it,

making it like you are with this

gathering resolution, making it a

priority and something that is not a

nice to have, that's something that is

like fundamentally crucial to your life.

>> So keeping two levels of this

conversation in mind, one is my own

interest in gathering and the other is a

a civic interest I have in in in

gathering.

Something that you have mentioned a few

times here is individuals and

individualism

and everybody talks about late

capitalism which I don't think is a

concept that makes a lot of sense but I

do think we live in late individualism

>> that we have gotten to an almost

terminal point

>> I agree with you

>> in in in how much we understand

ourselves as individuals and our purpose

here as individual expression and

fulfillment.

I'm curious in, you know, with the

cultures you know and the the gatherings

you've explored, like how you think

about the way we form our individualism

now and the tensions that creates for us

than living in being in or creating

community.

>> I mean, you may be listening to this and

thinking, well, isn't that the only way

to be? Like, how else would you

structure society? And I think of so

many examples in which like again

whether you think of it religiously or

whether you think of it as like the

pursuit of purpose where where the

design of the philosophy or of the

society is based on each other right I

remember Raina Cohen who you've had on

the show I know her her beautiful book

um the other significant others one of

the things I loved about that book was

she went back you know in lots of

different societies and I remember many

religious traditions where

attainlessness of God was actually

through the other person. I'm half

Indian and there are many many different

cultures and religions that inform India

and a huge in almost every context

whether it's bahayism whether it's

Hinduism whether it's Sikism whether

it's Islam

virtue and attainment of God is through

the other through community and there's

a saying in Hindi um me bhagan guest is

God and so there are so many traditions

in which the the sacredness the the the

sense of our purpose on earth is the

orientation to the other. By the way,

many of these societies uh are are

oppressive to the individual, right?

There's also a reason why so many

immigrants come to America. It's to sort

of to escape the group. It's to escape

the um you know, the oppressive

community. It's to have

>> multigenerational household.

>> Absolutely. The multigenerational

household. I mean, my mother came here

uh in the 70s. She secretly applied to

PhD programs. She got into one in Iowa

and one in Virginia. had no idea that

what the difference was. Begged her

parents to go. She's the third of five

children. She was supposed to have an

arranged marriage. Um they were

theosophists and to their credit her

father let her go and she came to this

country in part to think about what a

self could look like for an Indian

woman, Hindu middlechild person. and and

so much and so many people who come to

this country are delighted are so

relieved to have a space literally just

a space to think. There are beautiful

beautiful parts of the indiv of the of

the protection of the individual. Right?

Western civilization is based on the

right of the of the individual. The

individual deeply matters. But we have

gone to latestage individualism where

we've sort of fallen off the cliff and

completely forgot that the individual

also needs group life. that we are what

are we if we are not also through and

with one another. It's also boring.

>> Something that I see around me,

something that I even see in my own

family sometimes uh is

parents who immigrated here in part to

find more freedom and more space for

individual expression.

then are surprised or taken aback or or

or disappointed on some level

when to see how far their children take

it.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. But you move from not wanting to

have the entire multigenerational

family.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, under one roof and then you're

here and you realize none of the

families.

>> It's

>> outside of the nuclear families live

under one roof and often they don't even

live in the same states. and and I've

watched and including my own to some

degree. Uh my father um came here from

Brazil and we have much more family in

Brazil than we have here. And I think

actually among all of us to some degree

there is a yearning here for the

closeness of the family there

>> deeply.

>> Like I live across the continent from

the rest of my family and and you feel

that we got what we wanted good and

hard.

>> Absolutely. You know, I I I'm I'm

biracial. My mother, my mother's Indian,

my father's white American. And I

remember one of my earliest memories of

my father. I wonder if he would remember

this was I went to shut my door. I was

like was really annoyed with him. And um

I shut my door and I yelled out and he

goes, "What are you doing?" I said, "I

want privacy." And my father

loved being enveloped by my mother's

Indian extended family,

>> right? This multigenerational and he

always longs for it. and and and this

idea of like do I want privacy and not

do I want privacy what is the right role

of privacy in a family in a relationship

to our in-laws what do we share or not

that actual moment I've come back to

over and over and over again now with my

children because it's actually a deep

question which is like where is the

right balance between between the I and

the Wii between the self and the other

how do we actually do this but I think

it's important to ask the question

>> one of my favorite books by far this

year was the loneliness of sunny and

Sonia.

>> It's so beautiful.

>> It's so I mean it sits in my heart like

I think about it a couple times a week.

>> Me too.

>> But it's all about

>> It is

>> this dance.

>> Oh, I'm so happy you're bringing this

up.

>> Uh of you know the pride of the parent

on, you know, sending kids out into

America where they can f, you know, find

these destinies and fulfill them. And

then you know the disappointment in the

distance knowing that in some ways you

caused it and then on the part of the

the kids and and and again like I feel

this I'm across the country from my

parents' age and we're partially here to

be near to my wife's family but that

just speaks to how

>> impossible now the choices are right. We

can't live near both families. They live

on opposite sides of the country

>> and so you feel the you feel the loss.

>> And I think one of the reasons you know

I love that book and it's she's so

brilliant. And it's by Kieran Desai and

and the opening scene is the the

grandparents are sitting on this balcony

and they're sort of like worrying in the

morning in Alahabad like in northern

Uttar Pradesh in India in the '90s and

they're worrying about like what the

cook will make over lunch and a phone

rings and it's their granddaughter Sonia

studying in Vermont crying and the

grandmother's like but why is she crying

and he says I don't know she says she's

lonely but why would she be lonely,

right? And she he and the grandmother's

like, "She has Mexican food at that

school cafeteria. She has something

called Dexmex at the you know, like

can't imagine after all they've done

like the spoiled brat, I'm saying that

in quotes, Sonia is like lonely in

Vermont." And that's the opening of the

entire novel. And I think what is so

beautiful about what Karenai does is she

basically like puts a jackhammer to this

myth that the east is connected and that

the west is lonely. To me, the

loneliness of Sonia and Sun Sunny is

actually that the East is lonely because

they are unknown within their own

families and that the roles are stuck

and that there's no way to actually be

an individual or to actually have an

Ival relationship to use our early

language and the West is lonely because

it's the hyperindividualism. And it's a

it's a beautiful book where she actually

through her characters looks at the

entire journey journey between the

oppressive we to the oppressive eye.

>> So your read of that book is so much

deeper than mine. So I'm so glad I got

to

>> I have a lot I have a lot related you

know I could really relate to that.

>> I'm so glad I actually got to to hear

that from you.

It's funny because you brought up

something else that I think that's

interesting and speaks in a strange way

to the economics of it all. Right. You

just mentioned how much of the book is

it revolves around the cooks and the

housekeepers and the

>> and in America where the cost of labor

is is high which is wonderful. It's how

we're rich.

>> Uh

>> you don't have that which circles back

to the

>> and then you're doing everything

yourself, right? You're cooking and

you're caring for the kids and you're,

you know, and you're not in an

intergenerational household where the

weight can be distributed among

different people, some of whom are

working full-time, some of whom are not.

you have stay-at-home, you know, usually

women

>> and it it it

>> something's got to give.

>> Something's got to give. And and it

seems to me that what gives is

community, what gives is hosting

>> 100%.

>> It is easier to be alone.

>> Well, we say that, but it's actually

devastating, right?

>> I should say short. It is easier on the

question of the day to be alone.

>> Yes. Like if if Americans don't gather

more, if we and there's so many ways to

do it, we it it we will slide even more

into authoritarianism because we

actually don't know each other, right?

Every every legal expert in

authoritarianism basically says the

antidote to authoritarianism is

connection. It's knowing your neighbors.

It's knowing that, hey, how bad could

they be? Their first concert was a Tony

Braxton concert, right? It's it's these

tiny little social social bridges. And

part of modern life, I think, is not

assuming that there's a way to host. Not

assuming I almost want to like go over

there and like get this framework of

like a fancy dinner party or whatever

your mental model is of like what it

means to gather out of your head.

>> So there's a a long-running argument

that authoritarianism or totalitarianism

is built on loneliness. It's a very

famous quote from Hana Ren's the origins

of totalitarianism which when I read it

out on the show I got a bunch of emails

from political scientists be like we've

disproven that

>> can't wait for the hate mail

>> and and whatever people like to argue

about it

>> but I've been thinking about this from a

different perspective because I can come

up lots of examples of communities in

America that have been let's say very

pro-Trump and are much more communally

structured than mine is Right.

Evangelical churches are overwhelmingly

proTrump and and better at much of the

gathering and and structure community

than uh you know Brooklyn creative

class.

>> By the way, Trump is a great gatherer.

He's a great host.

>> What you mean by that?

>> Trump when when I first started there

was a there was a show that was called I

forget what it was called, but these

reporters would go around and like go to

all the rallies. This is in 2016. Um and

they went to a Trump rally and I watched

um maybe it was called the circus. I

watched I I I saw the line. I saw it was

a party outside the rally. I went in,

they experienced it. It is a temporary

alternative world. You He's creating the

world you wish you were part of. There

is there is merch. It was It felt fun.

It felt vibrant. It It's alive. He's ho

I mean I'm just like sociologically you

may not like anything he stands for. He

is an excellent host. This I think gets

to something that that you say this is

one of your more interesting uh premises

for being a good host which is that the

reason for a gathering should be

disputable.

>> It's not just hey we're all getting

together in a room

>> in a way a Trump gathering is very

disputable right you have to agree on

Donald Trump

>> and what he you know and a lot of people

don't agree on on him. So, I'd like you

to talk a bit about disputability

and why you think it's so important for

gatherings.

>> When you're gathering about everything,

you're kind of gathering about nothing.

And so much when I when I actually

started researching for the art of

gathering, I wanted to basically

demystify how anyone can create a

meaningful transformative gathering. You

don't need a fancy house. You don't need

the right silverware. You don't need to

be an extrovert. And I interviewed over

a hundred types of gatherers who other

people always credit with creating

transformative gatherings. A hockey

coach, a choir conductor. And they all

had two things in common. One was they

didn't have a mental model in their head

of what a hockey practice has to look

like or what a choir practice has to

look like. But the second thing is they

were okay not being for everybody. They

were okay for having a disputable

purpose that not everyone would agree

with. when you are actually thinking

about bringing people together to start

by asking why do I want to do this or

what is the need in this community or in

this workplace? And when you actually

think about what your specific

disputable purpose is, it helps you all

the way downstream figure out who should

be there and where should this be. And a

disputable purpose just basically allows

people to understand what this is for.

>> Let's do this in real time. I want to

host Shabbat dinners this year, right?

that if I was to to to name the main

kind of gathering I want to do it's that

what what would be the disputable

version of that what would not be

>> so I'd first step take a step back and

say why do you want to host a Shabbat

dinner what is your purpose what is your

need what is it that you're seeking

>> well I want to build a Shabbat practice

I've wanted to do that for a long time I

get closer and further at the same time

but I've gotten better at it for myself

staying off electronics building some

structures having the intention not to

act upon the world in the way I normally

do. But I also recognize that that

cannot be a real practice if it does not

have community around it.

>> And what do you what do you mean by a

Shabbat practice? Give me your

boundaries. What does that mean to you?

>> I want a 24-hour period in the week when

I rest.

>> Actually rest in the the Jewish

spiritual sense. The thing I find very

moving about Chabbat, among other

things, is the

idea that what decides what you can and

can't do is whether you are trying to

undertake that action with the intention

of creating, of changing, of

manipulating, of acting upon the world

>> versus accepting the world as perfect or

holy the way it is and simply living in

it for a day. Mhm.

>> And do you have a sense of who you would

like to do that with?

>> No.

>> Because and this has actually been a

problem for me.

>> Uh

>> I have a much more specific sense of

this and the people than than my my my

sense of what I want here

>> is in some ways like too disputable. It

is not what my children want. They would

like to act upon the world at all times.

um you know uh I don't want to speak for

my wife's interest but but you know she

has her own schedule and and needs then

you know you're inviting people over and

they've not spent as much time reading

>> uh Abraham Joshua Hessel as you have

>> and you know and I don't want it to just

be necessarily a thing that I only

invite other Jewish people to and even

most Jewish people I know don't

necessarily have the relationship to

this they've one that is either much

more intense than mine or you know uh

less so. So no that has actually been

one thing that has stopped me. Yeah,

>> because I don't want to impose this

weird search I'm on on everyone else.

>> I mean, this to me it's a beautiful

question because it kind of gets to, you

know, in in many religious traditions,

people have left the church, synagogue,

temple and sort of in some ways try to

create their own collective practice and

then realize why there's a church in a

temple, right? It was like the

infrastructure, the the institutions

actually matter. It's a force shared

collective. I mean, I would and if if

you're all listening and thinking about

starting a gathering that you do

regularly, whether it's a week or every

month, here are some of here are here

are elements that allow groups to take

off. Okay. The first is um there's a

beautiful book called uh

it's something called the the dynamics

of small groups. I mean, it's it's very

nerdy, but basically does sound

beautiful. It's it's beautiful to me.

Welcome to my brain. Um, one of one of

the core elements of that of that book

is they look at what allows for

nurturing longterm group commitment.

And there's what I consider a magical

equation. A group that has long-term

commitment to it has two things true

about it. That every member feels like

they're valuably contributing to the

group and that the group feels like it's

valuing valuably contributing to the

member. Okay, that's it.

And part of what I think for you to

think about the Shabbat dinner is is I

would create a container. I would

experiment. I would think about what you

most need. I would start with the

invitation. I would um think about who

you most would want to be part of this.

I I would think about if you are wanting

the same people the same night, which is

a which is a huge commitment. And in

that case, if that if the question is

what would allow them to meaningfully

contribute to it, it's probably six or

eight or maybe 14 people that you do a

lot of work ahead of time to think about

would you like to have this shared

collective resolution with me. And so

that's one version where it's actually

building community intentionally.

>> Boil that down to what makes that the

disputable purpose because the

disputable purpose is such an important

part of your book that I want to I want

to find it. I mean, I think the I think

I think actually inherently the category

of Shabbat, I'm not Jewish, but so so

from my understanding of it is Shabbat

is in and of itself has a specific

disputable purpose. There is an edge.

The the the the Shabbat creates the

negative space in the week, right? It is

a specific and disputable purpose to

turn off your phone. It is a specific

and disputable purpose to be at the in

modern life to be at the same place the

same week no matter what may come. It is

a specific and disputable purpose to go

to the same house over and over and over

again. A and it's not for everybody. And

so I think you could create if you

wanted to, there's one version where you

create a really thick and strong

boundary and you say actually I'm going

to see are there other people and there

probably are in your community who feel

a similar tug. Do they need to be

Jewish? Do they not? Do you have

specific non-negotiables? I'm basically

giving you your social contract, right?

That needs to be true for people to show

up. Do they need to show up on time?

Does the 8:00 p.m. Does the lighting of

the candles if you're going to light

candles, does that matter that everyone

is there? Can they come when they want?

Right? This is when I'm starting to say

that boundaries are specific and

disputable and you feel uncomfortable

creating structures but actually

structures are such clarity because then

people understand where and how do I

show up or is this a Shabbat like

experience where you are inviting

whoever

that you've ever met like Pablo Johnson

you met somebody in the coffee shop in

the morning to come but there you're

creating this temporary alternative

world where this is if you're going to

come into my home this is what we do

here

>> and AC across cultures it's such a

relief to be I I think you're and and I

want to be talking about this both. It's

like a good specific example, but I mean

it for be to be illustrative because not

everybody wants to do a Shabbat dinner.

But one thing that that I do hear you

tracing here that I think is is tricky

in hosting often is the discomfort

between making your vision and your

needs

the group's vision and demands upon the

group. So yes, I want something that

feels like time out of time.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. What what makes Shabbat

disputatious to use your term for for me

is actually whether or not I make it a

dinner or make it a Shabbat. Right.

You're not supposed to be working.

Right. One one thing I could do is say

banan all conversation of work and

politics at this dinner.

>> Great example.

>> And that would make it something

different than it would otherwise be.

And I feel as a host in any respect a

discomfort with

that kind of stricture and structure

>> I

>> on other people.

>> So this is where it comes to be a social

contract. People think invitations are

like a carrier of logistics date time

and place.

>> Invitations are your opening salvo

>> of your of your mini constitution. I'm

serious. It's your opening salvo to say

I'm going to create this temporary

alternative world.

>> Even in that you feel how aggressive

that is.

>> No.

language.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean the the first line of

your opera, like use whatever metaphor

you want, which is this is something I'm

I'm trying to do. And by the way, if you

are uncomfortable with this, my my

advice is to actually find a co-host or

find two co-hosts that would love to do

this with you. And by the way, as

anybody who runs any group will tell

you, like anybody who is really

passionate about it, you're going to

bump up and like think about new norms.

You're going to see what works and see

what doesn't work. And so, and so there

is a part of you that may need to grow

this muscle of like practicing what I

call generous authority, which is using

your power of the host to protect the

guests from each other to enforce these

pop-up rules to connect them. And then

if they're the right structure, this

beauty arises and people may realize

like, oh my gosh, this is the first time

in three years that I haven't looked at

my phone in three hours.

>> Thank you.

>> I I love the term you use generous

authority. Can you talk through what

that is? So generous authority, you

know, people think gathering is all

about connection and love, but gathering

is also about power because all

relationships are also about power. It's

about decision-making. And so one of the

one of the challenges of modern

gathering is in part because we're

trying not to impose or and it comes

from a good place. Like who am I to say

how we're supposed to gather, what

culture we, you know, what god we pray

to. But in often in modern life, we

underhost and a host has power if you

choose to host. And part of practicing

what I call your generous authority is

to use your power for the good of the

group to help it achieve its purpose,

for the good of the gathering, to help

it achieve its purpose. And in part

because you are suggesting a thing.

You're creating a thing. Tell them ahead

of time, right? So that they're not

coming in and being like, "What do you

mean these pop-up rules? What do you

mean I didn't sign up for this?" Cuz

they didn't sign up for it. You know,

when when my husband and I first moved

to New York, I read this book. I think

it was called maybe it was called

Literary Brooklyn. Very nerdy. Um, and

it was where different writers had lived

in Brooklyn over 300 years. And I I I I

loved the tracing, like so the

geographic tracing of that book. And I

um we came up with this idea because I

realized like I don't really I'm I'm not

a native New Yorker. I don't really know

the city. I said, "What if we once a

month uh went and spent 12 hours in a

neighborhood on foot and didn't look at

our phones?" And he was like, "Great."

We moved to the city.

>> Did you have kids at this point?

>> I did not have kids. And um we moved to

the city and uh happened to tell a

friend about it and she she was like

that sounds great. Can I join? And we're

like sure. And again we weren't we were

it was organic. There was a real need.

She also was an immigrant to the city

and she's like yeah I've lived here for

four years and I've never been anywhere

where I live and where I work. So then

she brought a friend and long story

short over five years we hosted what

ended up being called I am here days and

there were 12 hours. If you were going

to join, you had to come at 8 am or 10

am, join us for the meal, and be there

the entire time. No leaving early, no

micro coordinating with people who

wanted to pop in and out. In part,

again, it wasn't controlling because we

were trying to be off our phones. So, if

you're micro coordinating with someone

who's dropping in for the 2 p.m. walk or

whatever, and we spent 12 hours in East

Harlem, 12 hours in Inwood, 12 hours in

Staten Island, 12 hours in Red Hook. And

part of what was really interesting

about these days is first we learned and

we created these boundaries as we

started bumping against what was working

and what wasn't working. But the second

thing that was super interesting was I

get and we didn't call it Shabbat. But

the first four hours and different

people would come sometimes people would

bring friends. It was always a group of

about 6 to 12. 12 was a bit big because

we couldn't find a table. But we would

nap in parks. We'd we'd we we'd do all

sorts of things. And the first four

hours everyone was in a great mood and

on their best behavior. Then the next

four hours they'd start people would

often split off into different side

groups and talk. And then like by hour

sort of eight people started getting

cranky,

tired, none of the rest behavior.

Someone might burst into tears because

all of their guards are down and we

would have these beautiful conversations

that were so real. And the timber of

that third of the day was fundamentally

different. It felt like what it used to

feel like to, you know, talk till 2:00

in the morning in a college room or like

to hang out as friends and and so much

of what ended up happening as this

experiment was we were we created some

structure structure. Some people were

like, I can't leave. I was like, yeah,

but you don't have to come. This is a

very specific thing. I'm not asking you

to come, but this is a category that

worked for a specific period of time and

then we had kids and we stopped it and

that was okay, too. What you just said

about the way the I am here gatherings

ended I think is very real for a lot of

people which is if people maybe had a

>> kids

having kids meaning kids

>> not that we had like a powerful ritual

in midnight.

>> No no no uh although that would be fun

too.

>> Absolutely. Uh I think there are a lot

of people out there who had a structure

of their social life, of their

gathering, of their hosting before they

had kids and then kids broke it

and that now they don't really know what

to do. They sort of know how to do a

playd date maybe, but the kids have to

go to bed. How do you think about

ga like gatherings after becoming

parents and and making things open to

kids but not completely about the kids?

I I think people really struggle here.

>> They they really struggle. I really

struggle. Um it is a landmine. I will

first say like it might seem like oh

this is uh child's play. Parenting has

become political. Uh parenting styles

has become incredibly incredibly

divided. um including judgment judging

of one another um

and it's crazymaking. I mean the surgeon

general issued you know parenting as the

latest mental health crisis and and and

so I would I would say a couple of

things. The first is I think that um 0

to three is a fundamentally different

phase versus three and up. So let me

take 0 to three first. The first is you

know we keep hearing so much about

everybody everybody wants a village but

no one wants to be a villager. Like

there was this awesome piece in the cut

um maybe a year ago and I can't remember

the exact title but it was something

like can people with kids and people

without kids still be friends. One of

the one of the elements of to saying yes

they can is first if you is to choose to

still want to be part of a of a person

changing. So becoming a parent is also a

new identity, right? And so part of that

is also it's it's a relationship across

difference being a parent and being a

non-parent. And relationship across

difference needs conversation and it

also needs reciprocity. So what does

that look like? Reciprocity could be

like again if you want to be part of

this family life, that's a big if.

Offering your friends to babysit their

kid for a night and letting them go on a

date. And if and then the parents being

like trusting and teaching the person

without a kid how to roll a diaper,

right? So some of that is like actual uh

uh like a inter cultural relationship to

teach both sides and to ask.

>> So this goes a little bit to the way a

society that becomes very

individualistic yes changes but a

society that becomes lower fertility

changes. When I am in societies,

countries where people have many more

kids like the, you know, the number of

kids like Americans used to,

>> you just see that the expectation is

children just running around underfoot

everywhere.

>> Yes. Yes. And then here

it becomes this very like hey is it okay

if I bring my kids and they you know

>> which I actually think is okay like

>> it's okay but it is

>> it is but but also the ways in which in

a lot of these you know places in which

kids are allowed there's also like kids

benefit from being part of around adults

and so they behave differently at a

table than often many American children

behave at a table they

>> and around older kids

>> and around older kids take care of them.

I I did a piece about how to include

kids without centering them.

>> And how do you do it?

>> So I'll give a couple of examples.

Again, the age matters. So um you for so

>> let's say over three. We're just trying

to survive until they're three. Um, I

mean, this is a real example person who

invited us to New Year's party and

couldn't get a sitter because it's New

Year's Eve and our kids, I think at that

point, were maybe like five and eight

and and and so they al we're she's like,

just bring them and so we brought them

and there weren't other kids there and

we wanted to have a good time. We wanted

to talk to adults. We didn't want to

kind of be with our kids the whole time,

but we also wanted them to have a good

time. And so in this case, what my

husband did was he, my son is really

good at foil, like foil art. And my

daughter at the time like loved to draw.

And so they we took a a foil of aluminum

with us. And um my son spent the evening

going and asking people what their

favorite animal was. And then he'd go

away and for 5 minutes create that

animal, then go and like hand it to an

adult. And the adults were just like

amazed. And my daughter would ask if

they could sketch if she could sketch

them. and and people would sit and just

like quietly look at her and she'd

sketch them hand. I mean, it looks, you

know, it's more Picasso than

>> what what if your kids lack an unusually

party friendly talent.

>> I I someone No, it's not. So, forget the

talent. I a woman wrote me in on

Instagram. She said she read this piece

and she said, you know, I often take my

daughter to the National Charity League

meetings and she like sits and just does

her homework and she's just so bored.

She's on her phone. And she said, but

then after reading this piece and again

taking forget the exact details, she she

gave her a little reporter's notebook

and she went around went and met

different members at that meeting and

said, "Um,

why do you come to the Junior League?"

And they left and she was so excited.

The 12-year-old, she had conversations.

It wasn't gratuitous. It was asking

about the actual thing. It was

scaffolding. And so diff I think

parenting is like providing the seeing

your kid knowing who your kid is setting

them up for some amount of success. This

is why the age also matters. But then

also again this is not if other kids

aren't there but actually finding ways

to give them scaffolding to base on some

a way they actually want to spend time.

And then to also just know that it's

okay to be around and to listen to

conversation that isn't for them or

about them but how adults talk.

Something you've touched on here a few

times that I think is worth pulling out

is the idea of gatherings where you are

asking people to help you. You talked

about the baby shower where you know

people sponge down the house. You've

talked about kids and inviting people to

come learn how to babysit your kid.

And this has been a strange lesson for

me in my own life. It is so much easier

to help than to ask for help. And oftent

times very deep relationships for me are

forged when people will ask for help.

>> Yes.

>> In a way that almost makes me

uncomfortable. Um you know I had a a

friend who went through divorce and just

really leaned on me throughout it and is

a great gift to me.

>> Yes.

>> Because we ended up much closer on the

other side of that.

>> Yes. And I I think it in some ways

inverts some of what we're talking

about, the idea of the host, you know,

making this offering, right? You know,

making everything perfect and then

bringing somebody in to to experience

the perfection and the structure there.

There's something very much else about

the host

asking for something.

>> It's it's

>> and the gift is a vulnerability and and

and the opportunity to be of views. I'd

be curious to hear you talk about that.

And at some deeper level like it's a

deep and generous ask particularly when

it's in a group context to be the vessel

for the question. So what do I mean by

that? I had a friend years ago who

really really wanted to quit her job.

>> She was at one of consulting firm that

like the moment you know they can sort

of smell you're about to leave they're

like here's a bonus, here's a raise. And

um she finally hosted

a quitting party but it but she hadn't

quit yet. She was scared and she invited

six, eight of us and she said, "Um, I

need your courage.

Would you come and would you bring I'm

really scared to leave this job. Would

you come and would you bring one piece

of art or or poetry or a song, anything

that gives you courage?" And I was like,

"Wow, what an interesting gathering."

And we went and we all she then had us

she told us about she's really stuck.

She knows she's super prestigious like

everyone else many people in her life

you're so lucky and she just needs to

jump and leave this job and we each

shared moments where we took risks that

no one understood and we then shared to

her like it was for her ostensibly and

then she said I've invited each of you

here because you each are people who I

think of as courageous and I wanted you

to thank you for blowing courage my way

and part of what she did there was we

all then about this beautiful gift of

everyone else's ways that they are

courageous. We also she reified our own

like identity or sense of self like wow

she thinks of me as courageous. I still

think about that the poems that were

read at that gathering 15 years ago when

I'm terrified of making a decision that

feels really scary. I I think about and

so part of this is it's a gener it was

also you need to think about how to make

it fun and interesting for folks at some

level but people want to be of use

not used and most of us share common

conundrums and so instead of being

isolated in these tiny little fragments

where we're all like sadly wondering the

same thing when one person sort of takes

a risk it's also Robin for 30 years her

neighbor told her we're not a block that

hangs out and she found with care a way

that with for her that was delightful to

begin to shift that

>> something that that you're getting at

there which I think has you've touched

on a few times is the importance of

discomfort

for something that is going to be really

deep

and and to me that's important and

actually gets us back a little bit

weirdly to authoritarianism. M

>> so you were saying earlier that you know

if we can't gather we're we're not going

to be a democracy and and I would say

that there's plenty of people gathering

in this country who are perfectly happy

with at least the the turn Donald Trump

has been wanting us to take.

I I recently got I did a episode of

Search Engine PJ Votes podcast and he

had asked me to come on to talk about uh

how do you talk to your family about

politics at Thanksgiving.

And you remember there was this period

in which there was all this content on

the internet about like how to argue

with your uncle at Thanksgiving. And

and in doing that show with him, I

something that I began to think about

was the way that all of that content was

actually not about winning arguments. It

was about because nobody really thinks

you're going to win an argument at

Thanksgiving. It was about

protecting people from the fear of being

in a social situation where there was

going to be difference that they could

not control. Because what we've been

talking about here

>> are gatherings that the host has an

enormous amount of control over. And

what I thought is interesting about all

the content and the fear of being home

with your families over the holidays

is it reveals

a way in which we have

lost

the comfort and maybe the capacity to be

in social situations where we cannot

control, where we don't feel we can just

walk out, where we've not carefully

curated everybody there to make sure we

agree on all the fundamental things

>> deeply. And when I think what is going

to break our democracy, it's not that we

don't gather enough, although maybe it's

that too, but that actually we've lost

the skills not to be in a gathering that

we control, but in one that we don't.

>> I love that.

>> And and so I'd be curious to to talk a

bit about gathering amidst discomfort.

Something that I thought was really

interesting is you talk about being in

college in the book and finding that the

kinds of crosscultural and cross

ideological gatherings that worked best

were ones where there was actually an

incredibly specific dispute.

>> Yes.

>> Between the people there, not just

>> disputable relationship, a relationship.

>> Do do you want to talk a bit about that

and what you learned from that? Because

I'm interested not just in your

gathering side, but your conflict

facilitation side. I went to the

University of Virginia. Um I I'm

biracial, as I've said. I was very

frustrated by the unhealthy racial

climate there. The first question people

would ask often ask me is, "What are

you?" And I didn't I literally didn't

understand what the question meant. I

realized I was supposed to answer, "Oh

my, like racially, what am I?" And I I

learned very quickly that, okay, race

really matters here. Like, okay, got it.

And I learned about a process actually

through my mother called sustained

dialogue. And the University of Virginia

has a really strong self sense of

student self-governance, which means if

you have a this is your community. If

you have a problem with it, do something

about it. And so rather than complaining

about race, go and figure out like do

something about it. And so I learned

about this process. I was able

fortunately this this former diplomat

Harold Saunders actually helped write

the Camp David Accords, retired, was

interested in college campuses and race.

And he came down and he trained us and

we launched these dialogue groups called

sustained dialogue. We learned to become

moderators. There'd be two moderators

assigned for the first year, student

groups of 10 to 12 students from

different racial and ethnic backgrounds

to come together with the intention for

the entire school year to meet every I

think it was every other week for three

hours at a time to to deepen

relationships to be able to have

trusting relationships to begin to see

across race to bring the conversations

that often happen behind closed doors

into this group to moderate them and to

then to begin to see if you can change

your relationships to begin to change

the culture. We launched it September

10th, 2001. So 911 happened in the next

day.

>> Wow.

>> In part because of the timing, it became

a very popular student group. One of the

things we found was in the beginning, we

really didn't know what we were doing.

We're sort of throwing stuff on the

wall. And many of the groups were

diverse. And while it was, you know,

kind of interesting and beautiful, as

soon as we would come up to uh to like a

re sort of a very interesting

conversation around black and white

dynamics on the college campus, after

about 20 or 30 minutes, always, and for

good reason, the Latino person, the

South Asian person be like, gosh, this

drama again, like what about the rest of

us? There were two groups that were

started by uh by two students that were

different. One, if I remember correctly,

was college Republicans and LGBTQ

student group. And the other group, if I

remember correctly, was I think it was

JewishAmerican and ArabAmerican

students. And in our moderator groups,

basically every single time the other

groups, the moderators would come and be

like, "Yeah, it was a fine

conversation." And the facilitators of

these two very specific groups were

electric. We had incredible

conversation. We went into territory

that we barely ever get to go in. we are

we also don't know how to handle they

those groups were transformative because

there was a specific and disputable line

everyone knew why they were there also

willing to be together in that this is

2001 2002 2003 and that actually having

the boundary of the relationship was so

helpful

>> is that why you became a conflict

facilitator

>> I think I became a conflict facilitator

you know in part I I actually I'm very

I'm conflict averse And when my when my

parents divorced um when they separated,

everyone was shocked because uh they

never fought.

And I learned from an early day that

human connection can be as threatened by

unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy

conflict.

>> So then you were a conflict facilitator

in the let's call it the 20145

to 2022 2023 period. you have had this

outlook and been in these worlds during

what people now call wokeness or you

know the there was a a huge period of

social ferment.

>> Yes.

>> And we began talking about things that

we did not talk about we being American

society very much before that

>> and

me too. and and and it fel like

everything was changing and what we

could talk about was changing, what we

could and could not say was changing and

then you know you watched with 2024 and

and and and Trump's return

that shatter into a million pieces and I

think there's a tendency for actually a

lot of people on left to just like move

on like let's just not do whatever that

was again whatever it was.

>> Yeah. I'm curious if you have

reflections as somebody who thinks about

these questions is what was done well

there and what lessons need to be

learned if we are going to not just

avoid everything that got talked about

or pretend it was all wrong because that

I think would also be a mistake.

How have you reflected on it?

>> I mean that's beautiful question. I

think that

the movements like me too, the movements

like Black Lives Matter unearthed

uh

deep empower power imbalances. They

revealed, right, the collective

treatment powerfully revealed the

collective treatment of black people in

this country. And and and with me too,

you know, sort of the the cultural, if

we go back, I mean, it feels so long ago

to to this very simple invitation to put

online

and to verbalize elements that before as

a woman, one would never talk about,

right? These radical radical movements.

And I think I would say a couple of

things. I think first structurally there

was not enough uh focus in actually

creating laws to to change what has been

revealed rather than trying to change

workplace culture. The second is I

remember reading this beautiful

beautiful surprising piece. It was a it

was in BuzzFeed back when they had an

investigative journalist department and

it was by Katie Baker. It was a female

journalist who went around and actually

interviewed college students, men who

had been accused of sexual assault.

And uh I remember a quote and it was

something like it was and and they had

since I'm case has been expelled, been

suspended, kind of gone through all of

the the structural movements and the

quote was I there is no place for me to

go. there is no place for me to come

back to. I don't understand what you

want me to do. Do you want me to commit

suicide? And I remember like the quote

just struck me in my being. And I think

part of what in in all of these social

like there's the social movement and

then there's the what needs to actually

shift what do we actually need to create

space for? And then where and how do we

repair and allow people to to

collectively, socially, structurally

make amends.

to come back reformed if if they want

to. We have no again it goes back I know

I sound like a broken record. We we we

are we have so many tools for self-help.

We are so impoverished for our tools of

group help. And one of the books that I

think is a powerful book in this new

bookshelf that we're going to call group

help is Da Rutenberg's on repair and

repentance. It's a beautiful book. She's

a rabbi and she basically says

um American culture is uh is pretty bad.

Overemphasizes

forgiveness, the Christian notion of

forgiveness and underemphas emphasizes

the Jewish notion of repair and

repentance. She says we don't have

meaningful mechanisms to actually repair

with one another. And she says by the

way everybody causes harm. Like it

shouldn't be this big scary thing.

Everybody, all of us in our friendships,

in our relationships, everybody causes

harm. Everybody has been harmed and

everyone has witnessed harm. And we

don't actually have the we we don't have

the tools to actually even understand

how to apologize in our inter

relationships. And she looks towards the

12th century, do you know this book or

this works? This 12th century Jewish

philosopher Mayanades and and through

the entire book basically says these are

the steps to think about if I did

something. What does it look like to

first just understand and name what I

did without even beginning to look to

see if you forgive me or not? How do I

then begin to understand how do I change

to be a different person so I would not

do that again? And so I think so much of

what has happened structurally is like

we don't have tools to help people who

used to have power, whether they're men

or whether they're white people, to to

to kind of integrate, to have a new way

of being a man in the world, to have a

new way to be a white person in the

world in a multi-racial, multicultural

context. I think one thing that went I

don't know if arai is exactly the right

word here but but but I think about now

as I've watched what it has all come to

is

that there was often an assumption that

we knew who was oppressed or oppressor

wrong or right should be listened to or

should be discounted had had too much

power had had too little and my point

isn't even that those judgments were

wrong or always wrong but but I think

that's a very political way of thinking

about things that you know or judicial

way in some ways that uh that that

there's going to be clarity and then you

you need to figure out what the

reparation is.

I guess the thing I am getting at is

that

we went this period where the point was

to understand each other better

and it is very hard for me to not

believe we understand each other much

worse. And I don't think that was just a

failure of the left or something. I mean

the left has its own failures. I have my

failures,

but something went profoundly wrong

in our ability to sit

in

not just conflict, but diverse

narratives,