Cara, you know, you grew up like I did.

You know, you're Italian. You don't give

a [ __ ] Okay. You know, I don't give a

[ __ ] I'm ready to fight. Yeah. You

know, because I grew up here on Long

Island. We were doing push-ups in the

parking lot outside of discos getting

ready to fight people. Okay. I don't

give a [ __ ] I will fight Trump every

step of the way.

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Carara Swisser. Scott is

somewhere on a plane. We did an

emergency pod yesterday and I'm glad you

all listened to it and we thought it was

critical to do it. So today I'm joined

by a friend of the pod, the one, the

only Anthony Scaramucci, also known as

the mooch. Anthony, welcome.

>> Carrick, it's good to be here. Thanks

for having me. And I saw Scott last week

in Davos. I enjoyed his commentary and u

well I enjoy your commentary.

>> Thank you, Anthony. Um, anyway, I'm

gonna call you Anthony, not the mooch

anymore. Okay. Um, I like that better.

You You sit up straight when I say

Anthony.

>> I'm sitting up straight. You You yelled

at me before we started to sit up

straight.

>> I get it because it's very serious ahead

of time. But but we are in a serious

zone today. And actually, I'm glad to

have you here because I do want to talk

about business people and their reaction

to what's happening uh in Minnesota and

elsewhere. But before we do anything,

I'd like to point out that as the

episode drops, it's been 39 days since

the deadline passed for the DJ to

release all the Epstein files. Again, uh

Pam Bondi is in violation of a law and

they have not released them and part of

this what's happening has to do with

this too. So let's not forget that they

are out there and probably as someone

noted on uh one of the social media

sites, they're safer than anything in

America right now are the Epstein files.

Um, anyway, we've got a lot to discuss,

so let's get to it. Uh, Donald Trump

says his administration is reviewing

everything surrounding the shooting

shooting of 37-year-old ICU nurse Alex

Prey in Minneapolis this weekend. He's

also now sending his borders Tom H.

Homeman to Minneapolis. The leading GOP

candidate for Minnesota Governor just

dropped out of the race, saying he can't

support the National Republican

retribution on the citizens of his

state. And as we record, a federal judge

is hearing arguments on temporarily

halting the immigration crackdown in

Minnesota. On the latest episode of On

with Cara Swisser, I spoke with

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry. This was

before the Alex Py shooting, but Fry

knew another incident was inevitable.

Let's listen. For over a month before

Renee Good was shot, the chief of police

and I were both privately and publicly

expressing concerns that somebody was

going to get shot or killed. That either

a civilian, a resident, a police

officer, or an ICE agent was going to

get shot and killed. And tragically,

that happened. And then it happened

again. And by the way, it's going to

happen again on top of that. uh because

this is the kind of conduct that we're

seeing that inevitably will lead to

people getting hurt. Um

it's deeply concerning. Um

but it's not just Minneapolis that

should be concerned right now. I have a

deep concern for the endurance of our

republic when the constitutional norms

and these main stays of good governing

principles are thrown in the trash can.

>> Unfortunately, he was pressing although

I think a lot of people did understand

the escalating tensions there. I'll also

note I've been calling out CEOs for

their silence on this. As comedian Steve

Hoffsteader put it on threads, if

speaking out against fascism damages

your brand, that means your brand is

fascism. But since our last recording,

some execs are speaking out, at least in

Minnesota. On Sunday, more than 60 CEOs

of Minnesota based companies, including

Target, Best Buy, and 3M, released a

letter calling for deescalation. It took

them long enough. and more than 450 tech

workers uh from Google, uh Meta, OpenA,

and other companies have signed a letter

urging CEOs to demand ICE leave cities

and cancel company contracts with ICE.

Uh Scott and I talked about what

happened this weekend as a turning

point. Anthony, I'd love your thoughts

on this because you're you again, you

were just at Davos, tons of business

leaders. You obviously are tuned into

the political system. You are a

Republican who has turned away from the

Republican party um very early, I would

add. talk about what what is happening

here um from a you know obviously we're

all worried about uh the republic itself

as the mayor had but it's it's it's an

on the ground moving situation so I'd

love you to look at it from the business

point of view from Trump's point of view

and and your own

>> well well I I I I think it's important

to understand what they were trying to

do and how it backfired and we'll talk

about the business people so what they

were trying to do because I know these

sons of [ __ ] is they were trying to

set up a great media

exposition for themselves in the culture

war. And so here the narrative the uh

Minnesota blue state blue state is bad

corruption in the blue state is

conjoined. This is that conspiracy

nonsense.

>> Yeah, exactly. But it's a conspiracy

where

>> it is the greatest issue our nation

faces. The group of people who committed

fraud. You should just look at the White

House in any given day. But go ahead. I

I I I I I I I understand the push back

and we can talk about the Democrats, how

they should be responding better to it,

but I want you to understand what

they're doing. So, they're sitting there

saying, "Okay, this is great. We're

going to send the ICE people up there.

They're going to rough these people up,

and this is going to be great for our

culture war. Uh we're going to send a

signal to our red meat eating,

law-abiding people that we're getting

tough on people, particularly in the

blue states where they're doing quote

unquote all the fraud. Now they send

inexperienced ICE agents up there and we

we saw the videos and Trump saw the

videos which is why he's panicked and

they murdered the guy. I mean that's

basically what happened and now the

whole thing has blown back on them and

so this media imagery that they were

looking for has been a negative media

imagery. The problem

>> so just pictures you're saying just

photos.

>> Yeah. They they wanted a Fox News day of

programming where the day set from the A

block for 12 hours. Look at the Trump

administration, how tough ass they are

in action and we're we're defending the

Republic against fraud and we're mean

and we're tough and we're taking

5-year-olds because that's what we're

supposed to be doing. and they're

tonedeaf to the overall optics. And then

they created a Kent State like moment

for the older listeners, the younger

listeners, National Guardsman shot a

student at Kent State and it flipped the

entire political landscape at that time.

And so, so what's happening here is the

landscape is starting to flip. But

concominant to this is the chilling

effect that Donald Trump and his

Department of Justice and his

jack booted people have on business

leaders. So, hear me out for a second.

If you're on a corporate board and you

have a public CEO, you're telling the

guy or the woman, "Chill out, take a

back seat. There's 1,000 days left for

Trump." If you're the managing partner

of a law firm, negotiate with him. If

you're a president of a university,

negotiate with him. He's not quote

unquote Adolf Hitler. He's a lame duck

president. And while he's flexing on

you, take it. Don't overly criticize him

because he could do damage to our

long-term brand and damage to our

long-term stock market performance.

>> Okay? And that's short-term short-term.

But that's that's up against the stuff

that you just said about your brand is

fascism. Okay. So, the mistake that

they're all making is you have to reject

Donald Trump. If you don't flex on

Donald Trump and reject Donald Trump,

you'll be at a disadvantage. He'll

continue to roll you. European leaders,

wake up. Business leaders, wake up.

Somebody pick up the phone and call Mark

Carney, the prime minister of Canada,

and get some executive coaching, some

leadership coaching from him because he

gets it. Okay? You know, uh, Nuome is

close, by the way. Newsome would be

number two in terms of getting it. You

have to shove and push Trump back if

you're going to get any respect from

Donald Trump.

>> Can I ask you, you were at Davos, what

did Let me just say, I talked to them

behind the scenes, including people that

are close to Trump. Let me just say

like, couldn't so close they wouldn't

they could be on the other side of him.

They abhore him. It's really at one

point was with two people. I ran into on

a plane and they spent 20 minutes trying

to tell me, you know, we really can't

stand him. And I go, you need to shut

the [ __ ] up if you're not going to say

it publicly cuz I don't you're not going

to win my love because what you're doing

is so complicit. And so talk a little

bit about that because you're at Davos.

They obviously do they still shrug and

say because initially it was sort of the

shruggies with business we'll have to

deal with it and then he'll be gone like

this will this too will pass. Has that

did that change at all? Because the

Europeans got no Scott. Tell me why.

>> Uh because he's willing to do things

that other politicians were not willing

to do. He's willing to fudge the

Constitution. He's willing to overstep.

He's willing to detain you at the

airport. He's willing to uh put a

sanction against your business. He's

willing to do things that are outside of

the realm of due process. Right? So, you

have to remember to be in a safe and

free society, you have to be subordinate

to a set of laws and you have to have

due process. Did the young man that was

murdered this past weekend have due

process? No, he did not. They made a

decision to murder him indiscriminately.

Okay, that's authoritarianism.

When when leaders are turning guns on

their citizens, they care more about

power than they do their citizens,

right? And so these corporate leaders

are making a very big mistake. They're

they're cowtowing to Trump because they

feel he's got all the power and he's

going to use the power in an

unpredictable indiscriminate way to hurt

them. But if they were if they were

smarter, they would all team up. The

Fortune50 would team up like the 60 CEOs

in Minnesota and say, "Hey, listen. I'm

sorry guy. We're not going to take this

anymore. We're going to flood the zone

for Democratic donations. We're going to

try to get rid of your regime." Uh and

he's one man standing. You see this is

this is the problem.

>> Why don't they do that? Where are they

from?

>> They they don't they don't do that

because they're operating in their own

silos. Okay? And so when you operate in

your own silo car, you go to your board

and say, "What should I do?" And they

say, "Get out of the way."

>> Okay? But if you were operating

>> duck either duck or

>> duck if if the law firm Paul Weiss

called 50 other law firms and said,

"They're coming for me. They're

eventually going to come for you. What

do we do?" and they all teamed up. Now

they've got a voice, then they can push

back, right? If the Fortune 100 got

together like the Minnesota CEOs, uh,

you see, he's he got frightened. I know

this son of a [ __ ] He's a baby. You

know, most bullies are, okay? He looked

at the video. He said, "Holy [ __ ] we

murdered the guy." Which is why he told

the Wall Street Journal last night he's

reviewing everything. He called Governor

Waltz this morning and he put out a

friendly truth social about Governor

Waltz because he knows he's in trouble.

Okay, now he's got these CEOs. He's

looking at that saying, "Whoa, that's

3M. That's Target. These are big

companies. If they're coming for me and

I get wiped out in the midterms,

okay, or they start to reject

Republicanism, I just took a couple

billion dollars for myself. I'm gonna

end up and my family's going to end up

in wild investigations. So, you see what

he's doing? He's pulling back. That's

Trump's nature. Okay,

>> let me let me and yet they continue. On

the day of the shooting, this happened

in the morning. All these CEOs,

including Tim Cook, who is getting

blowback like you can't believe for

being in this Melania movie. Have you

seen it, Anthony?

>> The Melania, it's not on my list

actually, but if you if you see it, you

can report back to me.

>> It's selling out according to Donald

Trump. Of course it is, you know, but

but

>> it was like a one old lady with

Alzheimer's who wandered in like by

accident is is the group of people

watching.

>> I want to I want to tell you something

from history that your viewers and

listeners should think about. Uh when

Chamberlain headed for Munich to discuss

with Adolf Hitler uh his annexation

uh and what was going on there. The

German bureaucrats, okay, we've

discovered this in their diaries

50, 60, 80 years later. The German

bureaucrats were with great relief. They

were writing to each other and in their

diaries. Oh, this is great. The British

Empire is coming to Munich, represented

by Neville Chamberlain, and they're

going to flex on Adolf Hitler. It's

going to scare the daylights out of him,

and it's going to knock him out of

power. Thank God this last five years

have been a disaster for Germany and

he's going to get tough and knock Adolf

Hitler on his ass. Did that happen,

Cara? No, it did not happen. He went

there and he totally capitulated

>> and he he came back with a sheet of

paper said peace in our time and uh

Churchill said this is ridiculous.

You're allowing him this birth of

authoritarianism.

uh and five six seven you know 3 years

later 2 years later you're at war 5 6 7

years later 60 million people are killed

I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler I'm

just talking about behavior okay if

these CEOs and these business leaders

and political leaders got together and

said f you we're not going to take this

anymore they'll scare Mike Johnson

they'll scare the Republicans in the

Senate they'll push push back and and

they'll flip it, but they won't do it.

As long as Trump is intimidating you

oneon-one, Carara, he's going to beat

you because he's got the force of the

presidency in the federal government.

>> Sure. Sure. You have the economy, if

you're calling, you see, see Jamie Jamie

Diamond,

>> who's he suing? Whom he suing?

>> Oh, yeah. Well, let's just talk about

this for a second. He said three or four

things that Trump did not like. Okay.

Number one, he wants the Fed to be

independent. He doesn't like the lawsuit

and the criminal investigation against

Jerome Pal. Number two, he said, "I'm

not giving money to the ballroom because

if I give money to the ballroom, the

next administration is going to say,

hey, jackass, you were trying to

blackmail, you know, you were getting

blackmailed and you were paying bribe

money to the president." So, so he's

pretty open, pretty honest guy. I full

disclosure, I know Jaime personally. I

love Jaime. I think he's one of the more

brilliant financial services executives

in our history. So, he pretty honest.

And then what does Trump do? You can

bring the hammer down on him. He's going

to bring a $5 million lawsuit, which of

course he'll lose. And he's bringing a

lawsuit against Jaime personally and the

bank. He'll lose the lawsuit. But this

is a massive chilling effect.

>> Okay.

>> Or would Jamie say you're going to

[ __ ] lose

massive chilling effect. Did you see

what he just did to Jamie Diamond?

Listen to me.

>> You didn't do it. It did. Nothing is

going to happen. That's the thing. I

just don't I don't know why they don't

get the the next step. You know, you

grew up like I did. You know, you're

Italian. You don't give a [ __ ] Okay.

You know, I don't give a [ __ ] I'm ready

to fight.

>> You know, cuz I grew up here on Long

Island. We were doing push-ups in the

parking lot outside of discos getting

ready to fight people. Okay. I don't

give a [ __ ] I will fight Trump every

step of the way. Okay. which is probably

why he hasn't come after me because he

knows, okay, if he sues me, we're going

to have a great time. I'm going to pick

up a million Twitter followers and let's

go. These guys are afraid of him because

they see themselves as having too much

to lose. But what they're missing is

society has too much to lose if they

don't get together and they don't coales

with each other.

>> I don't even think that they're going to

I mean he's he's suing Capital One too

for people who don't know. And again,

this comes after Diamond warned Trump

not to interfere with the Fed and and

called his proposal, by the way, the

third thing to cap credit interest rates

and economic disaster. So, he was

critical normally as any CEO is allowed

to be. And but I I just I like he's not

it's like

>> he's not but Cara, you understand human

nature. I've read your books, burn book,

blah blah. You understand human nature

better than you're letting on. There's a

impulsive weakness up against

authoritarianism. There is people

>> I get someone like Jamie Diamond. I'm

I'm surprised if he's not pushing back

behind the scenes very strongly.

>> Oh, no, no, no. I I I I think he is. I

>> He doesn't look like he's easily capped.

No, he he's looking at the situation

snickering and he's like, I'm going to

wait this guy out, which he's going to

do, and he'll win the case, which he

will, but it's a message. It's a message

to others. You don't want to get in my

crosshairs. Okay? when when when a when

a when a cabinet member from Trump one

comes to my office, sits on the sofa and

says, "Listen, most cabinet members are

trying to avoid a Trump tweet and some

level of humiliation." Why is that, sir?

Well, it could be career ruining for us

if we do that. No,

>> that's okay. But Cara, that's how they

think. Cara, I just know how they think.

Poker. I want to play poker with these

people. Now, let me ask you about the

You mentioned the Democrats. All right.

So, the business leaders are going to

the ones that I think are in trouble are

like a Tim Cook because Apple has a

different set of values that it's pushed

for so long and here he is doing this

and particularly he's standing next to

Brett Ratner. That piece of [ __ ] um you

know at a movie nobody wants to see,

right? I don't I get that he wants the

tarot sauce. I get that he wants things

but you don't have to go this far,

right? You can sort of hide like a Bob

Iger. You don't see him. He doesn't show

up there. He doesn't say much, but he's

not there, right? He's not present.

>> Why be present is what I want to

understand.

>> Well, okay. So, in Patrick McGee's book,

Apple and China,

>> uh we learn, okay, it's a phenomenal

book. I thought it was the business book

of the year. And he talks about how

entrenched Apple is in China. And so Tim

is saying to himself, I got to get Trump

off my back and Apple's back because I'm

minting money with this iPhone 17. I've

got new products coming out. Whether

people like it or not, most of the

manufacturing is in China. I can virtue

signal that it's moving to India or

other places, but that's where it is.

And if Trump is off my back, that's

really good for my shareholders. Okay.

But but but

where is the line? and you're better at

drawing the line than he is obviously

because he's looking around and saying,

"No problem. I'll show up at the the

screening." Okay. But he happens to be

showing up at the screening where

there's a murder where there's a murder

taking place. He happens to show up at a

screening where Trump is telling our

NATO allies that he's going to invade

Greenland. And he's sending out maps on

social media where he's got the

provinces of Canada flagged alongside of

Venezuela, Cuba, and and Greenland,

right? And also Iceland. I don't know if

you noticed that Iceland was in there as

well. And so again, that that's the

trolling of Donald Trump. I get it. He's

a culture warrior. He wants to troll

everybody. He wants to set all the the

liberals hair on fire. I get all of

that. But where where Tim is sitting

there, he's saying to himself, I'm going

to give this guy a gold emulet like I

did a couple of months ago. I'm going to

shove my whole head up his ass because

of the situation. That's

>> I mean, come on.

>> That's the new That's the next season of

Heated Rivalry. Go ahead.

>> No, but I mean, come on. You can barely

see Tim's ankles hanging out of Trump's

ass. Okay. So, so, so to me, I I'm I'm

not their adviser and they would never

take any advice from me, but maybe they

would take advice from Mark Carney

because to me, if you collectively push

back on him, he folds like a paper suit.

You know, he he looked at the letter

coming in from Minnesota. He looked at

the video. He said, "I got to I got to I

got to move out Jailhouse Barbie

Christine Noom. I got to get Jailhouse

Barbie off the playing field. We're

going to put, you know, take the bribe

Honen back on the playing field, the 50

grand in cash.

>> Drunk. I call it drunk.

>> All right. We're going to put him back

in.

>> Okay. And I'm going to acquies here and

I'm going to find a way to exit this

disastrous situation. But but you see

the the real question though for me is

how are we letting Stephen Miller, who

couldn't get confirmed as a dog catcher,

forget about anything else.

>> So you explained you were there with

him.

>> This this evil Well, I'm going to tell

you how. Because Steven Miller bought

call ops on the worst day of Trump's

political life, which was January 6,

2021,

where Kevin McCarthy said he's finished.

McConnell said he's finished. They told

Pelosi, "We don't need to impeach and

remove him from office because he's

politically finished after what he did."

Mr. Miller bought call options on

Trump's electoral success in 2024.

Nobody else bought those call options.

And then Miller said, "This is

fantastic. I'm an evil guy. I hate

people and I want to inflict pain on

people." And Trump is my empty vessel to

get back into the White House. And oh,

by the way, we're going to have four

years to prepare ourselves to be even

more dastardly and more evil and to

remove more normal people out of the

checks and balances of Trump one. We're

going to have lap dogs in Trump 2 like

Bent and Buttlick or Nutlick, whatever

the I mean, the biggest [ __ ] on

earth. We're we're going to have these

people in position,

>> okay? And then I'm going to rule the

roost. I'm writing all the speeches. You

know, you can throw this [ __ ] through

chat GBT. You say, "Who who does this

sound like?" It's the writings of Steven

Miller. And so he's writing the

speeches. He's promulgating the policy.

How is he

>> Because he bought those call options. He

bought those call options. See that? I

mean, he is a whatever he is, he's like

an old crocodile. He's got to see that.

>> The the only way Trump will see it is if

you start saying Trump is the lap dog of

Steven Miller. The administration's

being run by Steven Miller. Trump will

absolutely hate that.

>> Okay? And it's like when they were

saying President Bannon,

>> when the President Bannon Time magazine

cover came out, he got hit with a ray

gun, knocked out of the administration.

And so, but Miller is running the

administration. He's running domestic

policy. He's running international

policy. He's writing the speeches about

Venezuela in Greenland. And he is

sitting

>> Does he have any foe internally? Give us

one insight into him. Have you have

spent time with him? So, give us one.

Look, I used to fight with

>> besides that he looks like a cartoon.

>> Let me let me tell you him and I were

not friends. I used to fight with him

left and right. There was one situation

in the 2016 campaign where I called him

up and read him the riot act cuz he was

treating donors with this like you know

lack of emotional attention uh and this

sort of costic

uh you know you know arrogant super

sillious way. So look he's a terrible

person. I think we can stipulate that

just by his behavior and his actions but

it fits Trump's narrative. Okay. Because

Trump likes hurting people. Trump likes

humiliating people. He likes hurting

people. He wants to denigrate people and

make them feel bad, you know. And then

and then when he gets himself in

trouble, he will walk it back like he

did with the UK war veterans. He had to

send out a a missive to Stormer because

it was ridiculous the heat that he was

getting. But but this is what these

people are like. And and and the problem

is the waiting it out strategy. If

you're a corporate board official and

you are on one of these corporate

boards, Fortune 500, and you listen to

Carara and Scott, let me here. Are are

you listening? Let me tell you what you

got to do. You got to get your CEO in

position to join forces and create

alliances with his other CEOs, he or

she,

>> and push back on Trump. You cannot wait

1 th000 days, Cara.

>> No, we've said that. We talked about

>> you got to get your [ __ ] together. You

got to get your [ __ ] together right now

>> and on behalf of the American people and

channel what those German bureaucrats

wanted from Neville Chamberlain.

>> Don't be a Neville Chamberlain and wait

the 10,000 days. Too late. It's going to

be too much existential damage done to

your company by the way and the United

States.

>> What they do think is the Democrats

won't do anything, right? Trump will

punish them. Democrats won't. I'm here

to tell you I want to make sure the

Democrats punish you all, all you tech

executives. I promise that we will. We

have long memories, as they say, and I

will make certain of that. I will bother

these Democrats forever. But let me ask

you, which the Democrats

>> The Democrats suck, though. Let me just

hear me out for a second.

>> We all agree. You know, the the

Republicans are evil, okay? So, they

suck more. But the Democrats suck

because they can't get their [ __ ]

together. If they if they could get

their [ __ ] together, they would channel

N. Gindrich. Okay, and hear me out for a

second because you're old enough to

remember this. In 1994, Nuke Kindred

said, "Hey, we're going to we're going

to combat Clinton. We're going to all

unify and we're get our ducks in an

order. Here's our 10-point contract with

America. Everybody's signing on to this

and then when we get power, we're going

to flex." The Democrats have to have the

doppelganger of the 1994 contract with

America. And even though they don't like

each other and AOC doesn't see eye to

eye with Gavin Newsome, get it together,

fellas. Get in a room.

>> So they threatened to trigger a partial

government shutdown withholding each

other. It's funny, but that's small ball

is what you're saying.

>> But not only is that small ball, that's

a disaster. You're a capital markets

person. Look at where the US dollar is

trading, the Japanese yen is trading.

Look at where gold and silver is

trading. We're in full-on currency

debasement. You know, Trump thinks he

can get out there and do his reality TV

nonsense without consequence. But people

are pulling away from the dollar.

They're forming unnatural alliances.

Carney is going to China. The dollar is

weakening. Gold is going up. People are

finding ways to barter with each other

outside of the petro dollar system. And

and Ray Gallo is going to be right,

guys. You want to shut the government

down. You're going to further weaken the

US dollar. Don't do it. That is

>> what other choice they have. They can't

fund

>> DHS. Correct. They they also can't

politically fund them.

>> What's the choice? There is no choice.

Correct,

>> Cara. There's no choice because we're in

accordion and not with each other. But

if they shut the government down, I

would rather have them fund DHS and have

the help of corporate CEOs and law

enforcement. you know that local law

enforcement is against ICE.

>> Get together people, okay? Develop a

communication strategy. Fund it,

>> but have an overwhelming group of people

push back on it. You don't want to shut

the government down when we are facing

our own economic peril. We're sitting on

a debt time bomb that's running towards

$40 trillion.

>> Doesn't that hurt Trump more? like you

have to sacrifice the village to save

the country.

>> I don't I don't I don't It's not going

to hurt Trump himself more. It's going

to hurt the man on the street more.

>> Correct.

>> Our our dollar has lost 28% of its value

since January of 2020. Okay. If you own

assets, Cara, you're fine. But if you're

like my dad, my deceased father, who

worked an hour and got an hourly wage

and had no assets, you you you you took

30% of it. You took 30% of his life away

from him. You gota we've got three or

four things happening in parallel tracks

that you know we we can control the card

table and we can maintain our mantle of

of financial services leadership and our

mantle of global leadership but we've

got to change the narrative. And the way

you change the narrative is through

coordinated opposition. Trump is banking

on the fact that the liberals are so

self-righteous and so picky with each

other that they'll have interessent

fights with each other as opposed to

coordinate and go after him. But they

could do that. They could go to the

cooks. They could go to the CEO of 3M

and they can say, "Okay, listen. We This

is not good for America. We don't want

our people murdered in the street. It's

bad for economic innovation. It's bad

for capital flows into America. Uh we

have to fight back. There are two people

Steven Miller and Donald Trump and

there's us. And there's a force majour

of us that can overwhelm them if we

coordinate with each other. And Trump is

banking on the fact that they won't do

that.

>> What's the actual move then besides

let's coordinate what precisely from a

business? Scott and I talked about an

economic boycott. Holy, wholly and

totally denounce ICE alongside of local

law enforcement, push back on them. You

create resistance, civil disobedience

resistance zones, okay? Alongside of

citizens that are willing to protest,

they got to show up unarmed so there's

no excuse to shoot at them. Uh you then

have to you then have to push the

president into a box and you have to go

to the Republicans and say sorry no more

money for Republicans for reelection

because all these people really care

about car is the money going into their

so the way excuse me those business

leaders could be an economic boycott a

really sustained one for example we're

going to get the Democrats have to say

we will hurt you

>> also in different ways

>> I I I just think and I and I heard you

guys and and I understand where Scott's

coming from and he's right. It's a very

good civil disobedient move. I would

like to try something else first before

we go there because that's going to harm

the people that we don't want to harm

the most. Do you understand what I'm

saying?

>> I get it.

>> And I understand what you're saying. You

got to burn down the village sometimes

to save the whole state. I get all that.

But let's try something different. These

are two people. We know this from the

schoolyard. the bullies when you team up

against the bully.

>> Yes, we've seen that movie.

>> You knock you knock the bully into next

week.

>> All right, last question. Is there

anybody in that White House that has

control other than Steven Miller? Susie

Wilds doesn't seem to she tried to get

out. It looks like

>> Susie Wilds doesn't give a [ __ ] She's

looking for her next lobbying gig. You

know that. And look, read the interview.

She's like, I'm trying to say this [ __ ]

about these people so that when I get

out on the outside, you think I'm quasi

normal.

>> By the way, Susie, we see you. So, Come

on. I mean, Mrs. Dowfire, I mean, this

lady is this lady ruined herself.

>> No, come on. You You

>> I'm just curious.

>> The only The only good news here

>> is that just dumb Vance, J. D. Vance is

so delusional. He thinks he's the heir

to Trump and he thinks he's going to be

the 48th president. And I'm telling you

that JD Vance is actually sitting on a

bomb that's going to blow up on him.

Okay, just give it a year or two and

this whole thing's going to blow up on

him. He's going to be the poster child

for the Trump menagerie of evil. And so

that is that is good news, by the way,

because he'll get

>> I think he doesn't like himself very

much.

>> Well, he's going to get he's going to

get knocked out of the game. Okay. So,

that's very good news.

>> You know, I call him the cyber truck of

politicians, but go ahead.

>> Tell me why.

>> Because he's it's he repels people. He

repels voters. Like you look I I'm

telling you I was when you when you see

a Cybert truck it repel people you could

see people pull back when they see it

and whatever you think of Elon it's

still a repellent vehicle right you you

may like him and you don't like that

thing I was driving a Volkswagen ID Buzz

and everybody like runs towards you

because it looks like a dinosaur driving

down the street happy dinosaur I I'm a

minor player in all said but when you

used to light my ass up on Twitter I

used to laugh but I gota I got to tell

When you're lighting Elon Musk up on

Twitter or you're saying this [ __ ] about

him on the podcast, I don't think he's

laughing. Okay. I think you're like,

>> "Oh, you know what?

>> I think you're there's a little boy

inside who who missing the love of his

parents who's laughing. Trust me."

>> All right. Well, hope may someday.

>> Not that I want to help him at all.

>> If you ever repair your relationship

with Elon, I want to be there to smoke

the peace pipe with you.

>> Never.

>> I I I knew that was going to be the end.

>> Not happening. You You took it well.

That's all I'll say. Let's go on a quick

break. When we come back, uh, what Trump

is saying about his health, or lack

thereof. Support for this show comes

from Delete Me. The new year can be a

perfect time to get your digital house

in order. And a great way to do that is

by making sure your data is protected.

Delete Me makes it easy, quick, and safe

to remove your personal data online at a

time when surveillance and data breaches

are common enough to make everyone

vulnerable. Delete Me does all the hard

work of wiping you and your family's

personal information from data broker

websites. All you need to do is sign up,

share the details you want removed, and

their experts take it from there. And

it's not a one-time fix. Delete Me will

continually monitor and remove the

personal data you don't want online

throughout the year. I've used Elite Me,

and I really like it. I did it again at

the beginning of the year, and I'm

always shocked to see how much

information is about me out there, and I

am a privacy nut, but it's always out

there. A lot of it inaccurate, but a lot

of it gathered in ways that are

troubling. I get updates all the time

and I really think their dashboard is

easy to use, which is why Wire Cutter

named Delete Me their top pick for data

removal services. You can take control

of your data and keep your private life

private by signing up for Delete Me now

at a special discount for our listeners.

Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you

go to joindeme.com/pivot

and use the promo code pivot at

checkout. The only way to get 20% off is

to go to joindeme.com/pivot

and enter code pivot at checkout. That's

jointdeleteme.com/pivotcode

pivot. Anthony, we're back with more

news. There's been speculation about

Trump's health for months, and a new

story in New York Magazine has him going

on the record about it. Trump talks

about his father's medical history, at

one point, struggling to come up with

the word Alzheimer's, then insisting he

does not have it. He also blames uh

women's fingernails and rings for cuts

on his hands. Trump's doctor says he did

not have an MRI, but an MRI like scan of

his chest and abdomen. I don't know what

that is. and the results were quote

perfect. And of course, Trump threatens

to sue the ass off New York Magazine if

he decides he doesn't like the story. I

don't think New York Magazine, as one of

the shareholders, gives a [ __ ] So, uh,

what do you think is really going on

here with this? He's got to face the the

healthc care stuff, right? Because Biden

didn't presumably

>> physically I mean, listen, you know,

you're you know, it's primmaaccia. He's

unwell. You don't you know if you if if

if someone gets busted on a football

field and the bone is sticking out of

the uniform, you don't you don't have to

be an orthopedic surgeon to know that

the bone is broken. You know, it's not

like that. The guy is unwell, okay? He's

unwell physically. He has an unsteady

gate. They put the red carpet out for

him in Davos. He wobbled down the carpet

like he did in August with Putin. He's

got bruises all over his hands, which

looks like they're infusion bruises.

They're not bumping up against the

signing desk when you have that level of

contusion on your hand. He looks

terrible. If you look at the orange

makeup and you contrast it to the pour

of his hands, he looks absolutely

terrible. I'm not a I'm not a doctor.

I'm just telling you primmaaccia. He

looks unwell. He's forgetful. He doesn't

remember the word Alzheimer's. He

doesn't remember people standing in

front of him. Uh he's getting

interviewed and they say you said the

following. He said I never said that.

Then they play the recording of him

saying it and but he looks like he's

telling the truth. Meaning he's demented

in a way where he doesn't remember it.

Yeah. He's demented in a way he could

probably pass the lie detector test. So

>> I mean he's a liar but it seems to me

that he doesn't remember it actually.

>> Yeah. I'm sure he's lying knowingly but

I think there's also lies coming out of

his mouth where he doesn't remember

anymore. So, so also the New York Times

reported something which I think is very

critical and very similar to Biden.

They're managing his schedule for 5

hours a day. They said it's 12 to 5 and

then they they pull him out of there or

if he's got to go late night, they'll

start him at 5 and they'll end him at

10. Okay, he's an elderly man. He's

about to turn 80. It's arguably the

toughest job in the world. He hauls

himself around. Okay. He's moving

himself from national football game

championships to Davos, back to Florida,

back to Washington. He's moving himself

around a lot. Uh, and that in itself is

tiring and dehydrating. And, and so, so

to me, they're going to lie about it

like the Biden people lied about it.

Okay, that's just the facts of it. And

and this is why I'm saying Miller

advantage to Miller because if Trump's

got five again, whatever you think of

Trump, I can tell you if you show Trump

a video of a guy getting innocently

murdered.

>> Mhm.

>> Even his egoomaniac narcissism is like,

[ __ ] that's not good for me.

>> He's looking at the video. He may not

have any compassion for that man or the

man's family, but he's smart enough to

know that ain't good for me.

>> Steven Miller's not smart enough to know

that. He's calling the guy an assassin

and a domestic terrorist and all this

idiocy. But the point about the illness

that people should really focus on is

that if he's only got five hours a day

where he's present, the other 19 hours

are going to Steven Miller. Don't forget

that. Okay, Stephen Miller is writing

the policy. Stephen Miller's talking to

ICE. Stephen Miller's on the phone with

Marco Rubio. Uh, you know, you know, the

joke inside the White House is, "Hey,

Stephen, we got a question for you.

We're going to make you vice roy of

Venezuela, but then when you get down

there, where are you going to deport

this Venezuelans to?"

Right? That's the joke inside the White

House. And of course, Miller looks at

them and he's all pissed and he he

doesn't answer them.

>> Right? But but but but the point is

Trump's weakness. There's a vacuum and

the void is being

>> filled by a very

>> a very evil this MF. He couldn't get dog

catcher confirmation. This MF, okay? And

he's sitting there. We had a 250year

experiment with a republic with real

checks and balances. And this guy,

because he was hated in high school and

he still wants to take it out on the

rest of us, is gonna run rough shot over

all of us because you have willing

accompllices, Carara. Uh, and those

willing accompllices are the Republicans

and the secondary willing accompllices

are the private sector smarty pants

billionaires that are afraid of Steven

Miller. How could you guys be afraid of

Steven Miller? Are you guys serious?

Were you that big of a nerd group in in

the high school cafeteria to be afraid

of Steven Miller?

>> What are you guys doing?

>> Take on Steven Miller.

>> That back to his health. What What do

they do when it becomes I mean it is

apparent that he's I've been saying this

for a year because I have relatives.

I've seen it like I've seen friends who

had Alzheimer's and the signs are rather

significant of some sort of dementia.

But what do they do when it gets what is

there something that could besides him

falling down which seems inevitable and

breaking a hip? Um what what what's the

next thing if if five hours is all you

can get?

>> Well, listen to just hold them up like

weekend at Bernie.

>> Do your do your reporting. You've got

excellent sources. We we know that Vance

met with Musk and told Musk, "Please

cool out on America's party. Uh you

know, Trump's time is coming. I'm going

to be the 48th president likely by

default and all the tech oligarchs will

be in there with me. Uh, drop the

America's party and and Mus said, "No

problem."

>> Uh, you know, they're they're they're

all they're all statistitians. They're

looking at 1,000 days

>> and they're looking at the a declining

mental acuity of a president and they're

saying, "Is it a year from now where

people look around and say, "Hey, man,

25th Amendment, in comes Vance. Is it 2

years from now? Can Trump make it to 3

years? I think he'll be alive in 3

years, but the question is, will he be

mentally cognitive to the point where

it's not overwhelmingly obvious to

everybody how bad it is? And so, I don't

know the answer to that, but if I I'm a

betting person, there's a percentage. If

you're a tech prolark, you're like,

"Okay, there's a 10 percent to 30%

chance that Vance is going to serve out

Trump's term and run for reelection in

28." And and that's also another reason

why they're not fighting as hard as they

should be because they're waiting the

thing out,

>> right? They're wait because of, you

know, actuarial tails is what you're

talking about essentially. Exactly.

Scott says, "Biology is undefeated." So

the the let me it's a terrible choice to

have to make, but if you could pick

Trump being in office at at a disa in a

disabled way versus Vance becoming

president, which one would you choose?

>> Okay, let me get the vomit bag out

first. Let me blow chow into the vomit

bag. Hold on a second.

>> That game you play, which would you

>> Okay. All right. Now, let me Now make

the Let me tell you what you got to go

advance. Okay. And let me tell you why.

Okay.

>> All right. Because Vance has no power

and even if he's president of the United

States, he doesn't have a personality

cult around him. Okay? And Vance cannot

keep that coalition together. He doesn't

understand how to do it. Trump kept Nick

Fuentes,

Ben Shapiro, and Tucker Carlson in the

same coalition. Imagine that. Okay? and

he because it's the strength of his

personality and the personality cult

around him as a political figure. Vance

has none of that. Let me give a specific

example. When they were fighting over

the beef quotas coming in from Argent,

the Argentinian beef quotas and they

were fighting over the beef coming in

from Argentina. They excoriated Vance in

the Senate. They would never do that to

Donald Trump because they're afraid

Donald Trump would send out a tweet and

say, "I'm now supporting this person to

the far right of Bill Cassidy. I'm no

longer supporting Bill Cassidy, the

senator from

>> who found balls recently somehow."

>> Well, thank God he him and a few others,

but

>> very small.

>> Okay, but let's You know what? When

someone finds their balls,

>> I'll take it.

>> I'll take it. Let's give him a [ __ ]

>> one of those leftists that's like, "No,

you should never come in." I'm like,

"Come on in,

>> Cara. Send him a magnifying glass. the

balls will look bigger in the [ __ ]

scope. Okay, let's let's go here. Okay,

but but but but honestly, Vance does not

have the power and they will push back

on him and they will flex on him. Now,

the negative to Vance is he's tied to

some evildoer oligarchs. Okay? And the

negative to Vance is that they're going

to pump him with money and they're going

to get executive orders from this stuff.

See, the problem with this nation's tech

oligarchs, they don't give a [ __ ] They

only care about themselves and their

mission quest to make a trillion

dollars. If they were a smarter group of

people, they would think about what

Henry Ford once said, which is, "I'm

going to make stuff. My workers are

going to make stuff that they can

afford. I'm going to pay them enough

money so they can afford it. They're

going to have a single family house and

a good school system so they don't

attack me with tiki torches and

pitchforks in my Dearborn Michigan

mansion when I'm eating caviar and

carving my filet minan. being an

anti-semite, but go ahead.

>> Well, I'm not He was a bad guy, but he

understood social engineering.

>> I would agree with you. I think I was

What are you guys doing?

>> I literally was like, you know,

>> they're coming to get you if you don't

start acting more generous. Like I I

literally have had more arguments with

them about this. I'm like, you will. I

said, look at They don't read history.

Anthony doesn't. They don't read

history. It's really kind of fascinating

in a lot of ways. They think

self-absorption. They'll get in a a

rocket ship. Anyway, um we're going to

go on a quick break and we come back,

Tik Tok strikes a US deal. This is

really interesting.

Support for the show comes from Vanta.

Customer trust can make or break your

business and the more your business

grows, the more complex your security

and compliance tools get. It can turn

into chaos. And chaos isn't a security

strategy. That's where Vanta comes in.

Think of Vanta as your always AI powered

security expert who scales with you.

Vant automates compliance, continuously

monitors your controls, and gives you a

single source of truth for compliance

and risk. So whether you're a fast

growing startup like Curser or an

enterprise like Snowflake, Vant fits

easily into your existing workflows so

you can keep growing a company your

customers can trust. Get started at

vanta.com/pivot.

That's va.com/pivot.

vanta.com/pivot.

Anthony, we're back with more news. Tik

Tok has dodged a potential ban and

sealed the deal to create new American

entity with investors like Oracle 15%

and Silverlake also 15% I believe in the

deal. Bite Dance keeps a small stake

around 20% but the algorithm will be

retrained on US data to address national

security concerns about Chinese control.

Oracle's sort of been doing this for a

while by the way. Um and by Oracle I

mean Larry Ellison. Uh President Trump

praised the deal and thanked China's

President Xi for proving it since he

hopes to be remembered by Tik Tok users

for making it happen. But the service is

enormously buggy in its first uh couple

days out with users reporting login

issues and feed disruptions. Other

people see a conspiracy theory in Larry

Ellison trying to shut down anti- uh ICE

stuff. Uh I I I am not of that camp. I

think it's just buggy and they're having

problems. I I I wouldn't put it past

them to do all manner of shitty things,

but in this case um I think it's just

this this shift over. um talk about this

because I there are also indications

that Tik Tok's user base is declining

and that it's uh its momentum is

declining. Um talk a little bit about

this because a lot of people are worried

about it becoming a propaganda tool. I

am less worried because I feel like it

has uh I know I'm going to get a call

from Zenya Muja in a second but I feel

like it has a MySpace vibe um to it. But

your thoughts it's big it's still

enormous but I don't I think it I think

Meta has the momentum with Instagram and

threads etc. Well, well, a couple

things. I mean, they they've neutered

Tik Tok, okay? So, it would be like

taking your dog to get spayed. You know,

the you know, the the verility of Tik

Tok is over.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and so, you know, maybe it'll work.

Uh and maybe that's a good investment

for these people. I don't know. But

>> the discounts,

>> but here here's what I do know. I do

know when I was in the White House for

that very short period of time, the

intelligence stuff was Tik Tok was

weaponsgrade

intelligence gathering and it was

weaponsgrade crowd propaganda. Crowd

propaganda. 30% of the white males below

the age of 21, they don't think the moon

landing happened. You know, 15% of the

white males below 30 think Osama bin

Laden is a freedom warrior. uh all this

stuff being generated by the algorithm

on Tik Tok and all this stuff of

fermenting

conspiracy theories which cause people

to doubt and distrust their government

and cause them to doubt and distrust the

institutions of our democracy. All of

that worked to the point where the court

said shut it down. The Biden

administration said shut it down and it

was getting shut down. But uh some of

the owners of Tik Tok had a lot of

money. They gave the money to Donald

Trump and Trump defied the court orders,

okay? And he kept Tik Tok open. And so

we're sitting here now where I don't

think the secret sauce of Tik Tok,

despite what they're saying, is going to

get replicated. Okay? It's not going to

get transferred. Uh we do know in we do

know when the deal and I believe this is

the case because intelligence agencies

in this country still have teeth even

though Trump you know I guess is Uber

Alice but the intelligence agencies are

telling us that Bidance is walled off

from the information now they own 19.9%

of the company and they're not going to

get the information from the US anymore.

So they have other back doors by the

way. Chinese intelligence has other back

doors. So, I'm not worried about Chinese

intelligence gathering. Uh, but I think

this has been spayed uh to use a

veterinarian analogy. And I think these

guys are going to wake up 5 years from

now. It may not be 100% MySpace, but it

could be like a Yahoo that was like very

prominent in 1998, is still with us in

2026, but really isn't relevant to the

way it was once relevant. That's my

guess. has

>> that's my guess with Tik Tok.

>> Yeah, I would agree. I think the energy

is dragged out of it and and you know

it's still the question is what's

effective as these things and and as

much you know I have so much disdain for

Mark Zuckerberg although he has an

opportunity see I was thinking this he

remember when Gates everyone hated Gates

he was Darth Vader etc. Mark has an

opportunity to turn himself around.

That's my feeling with these products

that are quite good. Obviously, he had a

real a real [ __ ] up on on meta the

metaverse and spent a lot of money and

wasted. Here's one thing I love. This

guy spent $56 billion on a mistake. And

then all these tech people complain

about the government misusing funds.

They misuse funds all the time. It's

their own money, but that's fine. Um

it's actually it's shareholder money. Um

I I have a if he wanted to Zuckerberg to

me especially with Musk behaving like

you know a cartoon villain um has an

opportunity especially with these

products threads and Instagram etc to

really

dominate in a way that he already does.

But I don't know. I just I have this

notion that there's if he decided to to

stop being such a ridiculous figure uh

that he could certainly revive himself

and that's not an opening for him. But I

think the hiring of Dina Powell was

interesting. I thought, you know, a very

smooth operator. Uh as you know, it just

is an interesting time. But Tik Tok, I

think, really is, you're right, it's I

think it's it's not on the upswing,

that's for sure, when these guys are

buying it. Although, again, they got a

discount, so who cares? Well, you know,

I'll say I'll say something that people,

you know, it's a little contrarian, so

just hear me out for a second, okay? I

think that uh primmaaccia, you put Dana

White on the board because you think

he's a Trump guy and you're sending a

message to Trump that you're no longer

going to bash Trump. You put Dena on the

board, her husband's a senator from

Pennsylvania. Uh she was I mean, she was

on the board, but you put her in the in

the that presidency vice chairman

position. Uh sends a message to the

right. But I'm going to say something

about both those people.

>> I think they're less Trumpy than people

think.

>> Absolutely. Dana has already told

people, "I'm done with the politics.

I'll I'll do the UFC fight with Trump on

the 14th of June, but I'm done with the

politics." Dana is more of a

libertarian. Okay? And Dena, if you

really follow her life, she is a Trump

whisperer today, but she's really more

of a garden variety. and so was David,

by the way, a Republican.

>> So, you know, there could come a moment

here one, two, three years out where

Zuckerberg is influenced by these

people.

>> Okay? And you could be right. And so, so

I think the primmaaccia look is, oh,

he's putting Trump lackey in place to

calm down Trump.

>> I believe that. I agree with you.

>> But they're not Trump lackey if you

really know their personalities. And I

listen, I don't I don't know Dana. I I

have friends I've met Dana a few times,

but I I know Dana very very well. David

and I know each other very well. Dean

and I have worked together uh and you

know and she was polite enough to call

me and give me the heads up uh the

Sunday night before the job was

announced. You know, so she and she's a

special person. I like her and I think

that this could be a positive result.

>> Just interesting choices. I I was like

everyone's like Trump. I'm like that's

not what's happening here. It's it it

isn't. I mean, she just to be clear, uh,

Dena left the White House, uh, early in

the first term. Uh, and I think probably

Charlottesville and other issues were

impactful to her in lots of ways, but I

do think it's a much more complicated. I

thought it was an interesting and

probably the best move of Zuckerberg to

bring himself back into the light. I

guess he wasn't.

>> Listen, listen. David Solomon, Lloyd

Blankfine,

>> there's a reason why Dena was at the top

of the food chain in and around the

hoop. She's got good judgment. She's a

very smart person and she also has good

diplomacy skills. Okay. And so let's

let's see what happens. I I like her a

great deal and uh and I and I wish her

well at that new job.

>> But the Tik Tok thing gives to me Meta

the biggest opportunity here to to

return itself that although I

>> your podcast but can I ask you a

question?

>> Sure. Please. Do you mind if I ask you a

question because I want to talk about

this? The

>> the international version of Tik Tok in

my opinion

>> is now going to be way more robust than

the American algorithm.

>> Absolutely.

>> Okay. And so then the question is where

does the real innovation live? Does it

live outside of the United States

>> along with electric cars and everything

else? Right.

>> Where where does it live? Say it again.

>> Uh in China. along with electric cars,

along with all.

>> That's important for your viewers and

listeners to hear that message. You see,

because

>> for all of our bravado and all the

nonsense and jingoism, take a look at

the Chinese cars. Take a look at the

Chinese algorithm. Take a look at the

Chinese AI process that's in place. And

the thing that upsets me the most is

take a look at the 10, 15, 20, and 25

year plans that China has where the US

government has UGTS. Okay? And you know

what that means? Your your your viewers

can look it up what it means. We've got

UGTS because we are playing to the cable

news cycle as opposed to a 15, 20, or

30-year plan. But I just think it's very

important people to understand that

issue, the innovation

>> and the excitement.

>> You agree with me, right?

>> Yeah. I I I put more to the point. I

think that Trump has done more damage to

the technology industry. They've done it

to themselves. Let me just say by their

lack of interest in safety, but what's

coming for them? They were so scared of

Biden, who was toothless, as far as I

could tell.

>> Um said a lot of things, but and maybe

we'll, you know, pull back on crypto a

little bit. Um and that's over obviously

but writ large I think Trump is more

damaging to the tech industry and his

reputation than anything else and has

set them back and I think China has

moved into the breach and you know Mark

Zuckerber used to always talk about the

the the challenge from China and in

affiliating so tightly with Trump I

think it really ch it it creates a

backlash that's going to be sustained

especially not doing anything about teen

girls about kids around chat bots around

everything. I think they are, you know,

they're essentially putting themselves

as the bad guy, the baddies, and they

don't have to be like there there's an

opportunity for them to, you know, I

suppose Carnegie did that as evil as all

those people were. They, as you said,

they moved into a more

>> no police obliged. They realized that

they had to take care of people. But

>> Carol, let me just say this to you and

get you to react to it. If I'm a CEO and

I'm spending 0 to 15% of my time

thinking about how to handle Trump, 0 to

20% of my time

>> anytime. Yeah.

>> Isn't Isn't that less time of me

thinking about how to innovate and how

to create plans?

>> Do you see the drag on effect of Donald

Trump for all these companies?

>> Exactly. That's exactly except for the

sort of true believers who are just

terrible people. Right. When this

happens, our tech industry has been the

leader in terms of the stock market.

Where does this go? because the numbers

still stay. Even Tesla who's the who

with which sales numbers are falling off

a cliff and obviously that's a meme

stock. So there's nothing to be done

about that. But what happens with these

tech numbers um even as they grow

higher.

>> Well listen, you know the Fed is going

to drive this in my opinion. So if

you're if you're telling me and I know

Rick Reer a long time if he's going to

become the Fed chair and he's a dollar

realist. Okay, if you read any of his

work or look at any of his PowerPoint

presentations, but if he's going to cow

to Trump in order to get the job and

drop rates, stock market's going higher.

Uh the stock market is not going higher

priced than gold. Stock market is not

going higher priced than silver, but a

weakening US dollar stock market is

going higher. And so, so I'm I'm worried

about the market because of the

concentration. I'm worried about the

market because Mr. Buffett took $400

billion out of the market when he looks

at certain levels of, you know,

valuation metrics that he looks at. And

I'm worried about the market because

Trump singlehandedly

is taking the marginal dollar that used

to flow into America's safe and secure

markets and liquid markets where rule of

law was predictable and people now want

to punish America. You talk about a

boycott, an economic boycott. I'm

talking about a capital boycott. There

are people there are so you think the

sovereign wealth fund of Norway is like,

"Okay, let me put my incremental dollar

into America right now." I'm telling

you, they're not. They're like, "Hey,

hey, f you guys. We'll find other places

to go with the money." And uh and look

at the tourism numbers are down. Look at

the flights from Europe. Look at the

flights from Canada into Florida.

>> Tourism is a bigger industry than

manufacturing. Everybody, let's

>> Exactly. So, so, so to me, what I'm

worried about is the knock-on effects of

Donald Trump. Okay? I I think the tech

guys are going to be okay probably for

the next 12 months because of where

rates are going. Okay? Unless you're

telling me Rick Reer's getting the job

and he turns to you and says something

that a traditional Fed chairman would

say, which is, "Hey, I'm probably

raising rates 50 basis points." Wait,

what? Well, gold's at 5,000. Uh the

dollar is falling. The yen carry trade

is faka and I'm going to raise rates

here to put the thing back in equipoise.

Okay. See, so the market is not sensing

that. And and by the way, Bitcoin is not

doing well because it's not for the

market. It's not structural. If you told

me that this is a structural end to the

dollar, then Bitcoin would be

whackadoodlely rattling. What's

happening right now is it's a shortterm

crisis.

>> And so that's why people are piling into

gold and silver. Bitcoin is the next

step. That's when people say, "Okay,

full-on currency disbasement. The the

dollar is now the Zimbabwe dollar. We

got to get the hell out of the dollar."

>> I have one of those.

>> Yeah. I got Hey, look, I'm a Hey, Kevin,

you better be nice to me. I am a

billionaire in Zimbabwe. But my my my

point is the money is there to drive the

market higher for the tech people.

>> Yeah. If they behave anyway. All right,

Anthony, one more quick break. We'll be

back for wins and fails. Okay. Uh

Anthony, let's hear some wins and fails.

You go first.

>> Okay. So, you're not gonna like this

one, but uh but the win of the week

>> is actually Elon Musk. And I'm going to

tell you why. He shows up with a

haircut.

>> He looks like he lost a little bit of

weight. They give him 31 minutes of air

time at the World Economic Forum, a

place that he disdained and criticized

woefully for a decade. His buddy Larry

Frink, who's now the interim chairman,

brings him on stage.

>> And he was articulate and he explained

the vision for these data centers up in

space. And he was the normal Elon and he

was the aspirational Elon. And you could

like him or dislike him, but that's the

win for the week.

>> All right. The only thing I'm saying is

a lot of his predictions he makes them

up. You know that like you could track

them at this point. He said it so much.

I'm going to have robots in your house

in a year and then 10 years goes.

>> I understand that. But but I'm talking

about imagery and you know the world is

about imagery. I think he won. Do you

want the loss or you want to go for the

win?

>> All right. Go ahead. I'll give it to

you. I'll give it to you.

>> All right. All right.

>> I heard his robots are cool.

>> The loss.

>> The loss. The loss is actually Donald

Trump. No. Neil Neil Neil Neil Ferguson

said that he won Davos. Uh and he

explained this MAGA-esque way that he

won Davos, but he actually lost Davos.

Carney Carney won Davos. He would have

been number two on the win category for

me. Although Carney has a going to have

a harder time because of where he sits

north of the American border. But but

but but Donald Trump lost this week. He

lost because he looked like an imbecile

on Greenland. He lost because the

marginal dollar is now moving away from

the United States because of his

imbecility and the situation in ICE uh

the situation the tragedy in Minnesota.

Trump has lost that too because he's

smart enough to know that the public

opinion he's -17

on ICE and immigration in the United

States and he's got a 36% approval

rating but when people ask their friends

about Trump they don't like what's

happening to their neighbors and so

Trump is losing right now uh and we're

not even addressing his health issues.

So that's the win and that's the loss.

Despite the appearance that Trump quote

unquote won and all the MAGA people like

Buttlick would say that he won, he did

not win. He lost.

>> We call him Nutlick, too. I cannot

believe it's the same person that I was

talking to at Davos 10 years ago.

>> Kevin Hassid is the one that all the

economists called me about saying, "What

in the world happened? Did he get a

brain implant or something?"

>> Yeah, Kevin I feel more sorry for. But I

mean, Howard knows better, you know.

>> Yeah. Well, who knows? He's so thirsty.

It's kind of depressing to watch.

>> Um Howard, no matter what you do, as

they say from uh

>> Dude, you lost Carmine. No matter what

you're going to do, you're going to die.

>> And you're never coming back from this,

by the way. You're never coming back

from this.

>> You're never coming back. My fail. I'm

going to do the other side of the Elon

thing. The EU regulators are

investigating X over sexualized AI

images. Any reporter who does not ask

him about this in every interview is not

doing their jobs. What is happening on X

is repulsive. I have four children. You

have children. You have many children.

>> Five of them. Yep.

>> Five of them. Uh what is the fact that

he has not gotten a hold of this on the

on this one issue? I will continue to

pound um these I hope he gets

investigated everywhere over these

sexualized AI images uh because they

have to stop. they have to stop whether

they're non-consensual uh AI images of

women, especially a child pornography is

what it is. To be known as a child

pornographer is not the image you want.

That's what I would say. So, and I I'm

going to take the other side on that. I

think it's very people are sick of this

[ __ ] of of this and it's enough. It's

enough with them running rough shot over

us. They're not going to sexualize our

children. Um and I'm not a QAnon person.

It's just it's so dangerous to do this.

Um, my win you're also not gonna like

but I I'm gonna do it. Zoran Mandani

telling New Yorkers to stay home and

read Heated Rivalry during a snowstorm I

thought was very funny and actually did

a good job on his first snowstorm. He

did Anthony, you'll have to say he's

doing he's focusing in on New Yorkers

tonight.

>> Let me let me tell you. So I I I am a

New Yorker. I am not moving to Florida.

I've got my home here in New York. I've

been a New Yorker for 62 years.

>> I want him to do well. Okay. Honestly,

if he does well, it's better for the

rest of us.

>> I agree. I think he handled the

snowstorm beautifully. He put out great

information. He did his He knows what

his job is right now, which is making

New Yorkers have a all New Yorkers have

a better life. I think that's a really

>> And if he does that, he'll win real

election and God bless him. I I I

>> I just want the city to be safe, you

know, for all the obvious reasons.

>> Yeah. I I I love New York City. Anyway,

um I'm questioning. Do you have you have

you watched Eater Ronald Rey Anthony?

>> I haven't. No. Is that something I need

to do?

>> You need to do it.

>> Yeah, I've been watching.

>> Maybe vaguely uncomfortable for you, but

I think you'll like it.

>> No. Why would it be? What do you think?

I'm homophobic. It was about

>> No, I don't. But there's a lot of sex

happening.

>> I don't Baby, I want everybody to be

happy. Okay.

>> All right. You should watch Eat Arrival

and we'll have a discussion about it.

You are a pleasure to talk to. I always

>> I can't be quiet at this point in my

life. It's like my kids say, "Dad, you

got to you got to speak up because

>> speak up. You gota you got to help

people speak up. I think what I love

about you and Scott is you're helping

people speak up. You're providing Yes.

>> a little bit of a ceiling for people to

come in under.

>> God bless you for that.

>> Absolutely. And God bless the people of

Minnesota who are doing that. I'm just

They're not organized protesters.

They're not being paid for by George

Soros. These are people who are seeing

what's happening in their community and

they don't they won't

>> Trump would not be responding the way he

responded this morning if that were the

case. Gre trust me. He would have gone

crazy with evidence related to that.

He's looking at the situation saying,

"I'm losing here. I got to pull this

back."

>> What a decent group of people and

helping their helping their fellow

citizens and Minnesota.

>> He's actually breathed life into Tim

Walls again. I have to tell you, it's

incredible, which is, you know, we'll

see.

>> That's one way to look at it.

>> Yeah. Well, it's well, actually, he's

handled himself well. And just so you

know, I I urge everyone to listen to my

Jacob Fry interview. Very interesting

interview. Unfortunately, he did predict

exactly what was going to happen and

let's hope it doesn't happen again. And

my heart goes out to the family of Alex

Prey and also the family of Renee Good

and all the families who are are subject

to brutality uh in this manner. It's

>> you can't have your government killing

its own citizens. That is correct. Not

form some level of coordinated

resistance to that.

>> Yep. Absolutely. Anyway, we want to hear

from you. Send us your questions about

business tech or whatever's on your

mind. and go to nymag.com/pivot

to submit a question for the show or

call 85551 pivot. Be sure to like and

subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll

be back on Friday. Make sure to follow

Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New

York Magazine and Vox Media. You can

subscribe to the magazine at

nymag.com/pod.

We'll be back later this week for

another breakdown of all things tech and

business. Thank you, Anthony.

>> Thanks, Cara.