If what you're saying is true around

the, you know, the first civilizations

being 20 plus thousand years ago, what

does that mean for us, for our lives?

>> Oh, it's really important meaning for us

because because it will finally remind

us and tell us once and for all that

we're not what it's all about.

>> It's not all about us. The whole human

story is not about us. It's not

inevitable that it comes to this and

that we are temporary like every other

civilization. We're so filled with

arrogance and pride right now in our

technological achievements, our great

abilities, our great powers

and uh the arrogance that comes with

that. The Greeks used to call that

hubris. It's ultimately ends in nemesis.

Ultimately brings you down. Arrogance

arrogance is not a good thing. It's not

a good thing in an individual and it's a

terrible thing in a civilization.

>> It also means that a lot of the things

that we've dismissed as you know

conspiracy or you know hocus pocus

whatever might not be. I mean you talk a

lot about like astrology and stuff like

that and

>> yeah I think we should keep open to to

systems that the ancients used which

we've dismissed like

>> which might be very astrology is one of

them. What does astrology ultimately

say? It it ultimately says that

we these beings these humans aren't

isolated but are connected to the

universe and are affected by everything

that happens in the universe and it's

and it's recognizing that there may be

patterns in that and instead of instead

of just rubbishing that or doing a few

investigations I think it may be worth

looking further into that worth looking

further into telepathy too my friend

Rbert Sheldrich a serious scientist one

of the very few who's doing serious

scientist ific work on

issues like telepathy and like

telekinesis, being able to move things

with your mind. Mainstream scientists,

most of them will just laugh at that.

Absolute rubbish. Yeah, go away. You're

a lunatic. But why are we lunatics to

look into those things? It's really

interesting and it's really worth

investigating. We re should realize that

we have a heritage of hundreds of

thousands of years and I believe it's

even older than 315,000 years. We do not

have a heritage of a hundred years,

which is the heritage of modern science.

Well, let's let's be generous. Let's put

modern science even back to the Greeks

in a way. But it doesn't become what we

would recognize as science until the

19th century really. So, it's a very

young thing on if you take the human

being as the as the heart of this and

and and you were to find a little pimple

on the nose of that human being, that

would be science. It's a pimple on the

nose of hundreds of thousands of years

of human experience. Why should we be so

arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of

thousands of years of human experience

in the favor of 150 years maximum of

so-called science?

>> I mean, one of the interesting things is

I actually did go to the Amazon

rainforest in Peru. Um,

>> and they've discovered these like big

square things underground.

>> I've been involved in that.

>> What is What is that? Well, the the name

that's being given to them is uh is

geoglyphs.

>> Geoglyphs.

>> I think I know this one. Nobody knew

they existed at all until about 40 years

ago

>> really.

>> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is

a rainforest and and densely covered

with uh canopy. However, it's constantly

being settled. This is a problem in

itself. It's constantly being settled.

The Amazon is being cleared and it's

being turned into farms. It's the

clearance of bits of the Amazon

initially that exposed these huge

geometric structures.

>> Mhm.

>> Under the rainforest, no longer under

because they cleared the rainforest. Now

with LiDAR, I've been involved with

Marty Parsonan. In fact, he was on my

Netflix show. He's a archaeologist from

Finland and and with Alteo Ramanzi, a

Brazilian geographer. Um what they're

doing is a dense lidar survey of the

whole of Ara province in Brazil. This is

in our Cray province as well. The areas

that are still under canopy rainforest

and lidar can see through the canopy and

it can see raised objects underneath and

it can actually give you the shape of

that object. Then they can go in low u

you know low impact just a few of them

go in check it out see what's there and

then begin the archaeology on the site.

>> I mean this is a prime example. I've got

um I've got a list here of things that

we used to believe and things that how

those beliefs have changed. And one of

them was that we used to believe that

the Amazon was an untouched wilderness.

>> That's right.

>> But in the 1970s, we discovered what, a

thousand of these structures

>> at least. Uh they're confident now from

the LAR work that they're talking of

thousands,

3, five, 6 thousand. There are also

roadways that run for 100 km plus. Uh

there's absolutely no doubt that the

Amazon once supported a population of

millions with um extraordinary clever

management of rainforest. soils by

creating a man-made soil that they call

terrapa. It's still used in Brazil

today. We are having to

completely reconceive the Amazon.

It was thought of as a pristine

rainforest which a few human beings

wandered around aimlessly in hunting

whatever. Now we know that it was the

homeland

of a very large population who lived in

city-sized communities.

um who joined those communities with

long straight roadways.

It's it's as though the veil is being

pulled back and we're beginning to see a

completely untold story in the Amazon.

And these geoglyphs,

very precise rectangles, triangles,

circles, squares, all of these it's

geometry. It's geometry. What what's it

what's it doing there in the Amazon? And

and when I when I talked to a local

shaman about this, and I did on on

camera in the in the in the Netflix

show, um he talked to me about how

important these places still are to him,

that these places were made by their

ancestors, that they're places for

shamanic gatherings,

places for shamans to use specifically

to contact the world beyond. Let's be

clear about this. All civilizations,

including ours, although we may deny it,

all of them emerged from shamanism.

Shamanism is the essence uh of the human

adventure uh and and all civilizations

emerge from shamanism. And this one was

shamanism. Yes. Shamanism being the

system of using altered states of

consciousness to gain direct access to

other levels of reality

>> like psychedelics.

>> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a

month. Uh that will give you some

visions too. Uh there there are there

are other ways but but psychedelics are

the most efficient way to enter the

altered state of consciousness and

shamans are masters of the use of plant

medicines everywhere in the world but

particularly in the Amazon rainforest.

This is this is where you you see it

most strongly and DMT the active

ingredient of awaska is very fast acting

in the way that it's normally consumed.

Okay. It's normally vaped or smoked. Uh

it produces a 10-minute journey

literally to the other side of reality.

Uh and there's not much you can do about

it once you're in there. But then you're

out again.

Iaska

is a very clever technology. The Iaska

brew contains DMT.

DMT is not orally active. So you can

drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in

it and it's not going to do anything to

you because there's an enzyme in the gut

that destroys it.

The iawaska vine contains a chemical

that shuts that enzyme down and allows

the DMT to be absorbed orally, producing

an experience that can last for hours

that can be physically very

uncomfortable. Um, what they're doing at

Imperial College is they're giving them

DMT by intravenous infusion

>> using basically anesthesia technology to

constantly top up the dose to keep the

individual in the peak state. And unlike

other psychedelics, there's no tolerance

with DMT. So you can keep on dosing

people.

>> When you you've taken OAS 80 times,

>> something like that. Something like

that. Um it's not just it's important to

be clear about a number of things.

First of all, all psychedelics are

extremely serious matters. They are not

to be taken trivially. They are

extremely serious with uh

experienced use of Iawaska. One of the

very common reports is this moral

dimension that you are presented with

your own life with what you've done with

your own life with the pain that you may

have caused to others and suddenly that

pain that you cause to another person

which you dismissed as they just deserve

that they just deserve those words. You

suddenly get it from their point of

view. You feel the agony that your words

caused that person.

and you and you find yourself, did I do

that? Did I say that? You suddenly see

what you are.

You can't go back into your own past and

change negative and useless and

pointless things that you did. You can't

do that. But you can avoid repeating

them in the future. And it's that

teaching of a moral lesson uh that I

find most valuable in Iawaska. It's

helped me to come to terms with my

tendency to swift anger. I'm I'm very

aware that that's a problem I have and

it's something I need to do something

about. And I IO's helped me with that.

I've become gentler and and softer. Not

gentle enough maybe. It's a journey.

It's not a it's not an overnight

transformation. Not a magic pill. Uh the

main work with Iawaska comes after the

medicine. The main work comes with what

you do with the experience. How you

integrate it into your life. That's

where the work begins. People say, "Oh,

it's so easy to take a a brew." Well,

it's not actually not that easy because

you're going to vomit and have diarrhea,

but but easy. Um, but that's where the

work begins, not where it ends.

>> And that emotion is that does that stem

back to your relationship with your

parents? Because I was reading about

your early your early years.

>> Look, we're all frail human beings.

We're all messed about in lots of ways.

We all have we all have issues in our

lives. Um,

>> you said regret.

>> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying

hurtful and unkind things to a number of

people uh over the years. I do I do

regret that very much. I do regret very

much that I wasn't

I wasn't mature enough to realize why my

parents were so difficult. Uh that I

never really forgave them for that. I

never really forgave them for the

stranges of my childhood and and uh the

various things that that that happened.

I never really saw it from their point

of view. My mother lost three children

aside from me. I'm an only child, but

her first child was carried to term

before me and born dead. Then I was

born, I lived and then the next two both

died at the age of a year. Well, I know

now as a father, I know I know what what

a catastrophe that is for a person for a

for a mother to to lose three children

like that.

>> You said weird childhood.

>> Yeah. So, this is me. This is little

Graeme here with my mother and my

father. I was it was 1954

that we landed in India. My father was a

s consultant surgeon and so he went as a

missionary surgeon to India to a place

called the Christian medical college in

velour in south India. Um and we lived

in a tin hut but he was following his

faith. He was doing what was what was

right for him. He was giving his skills

to help to help people. I I I realize

that now and a lot of resentment I have

towards him I probably you know

shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He

was very eccentric. He used to take me

in to watch dissections. Um the there

were still hangings in India at that

time and he would dissect the prisoners

after the hangings. He had me in there

watching it. Um he took me later on.

>> What age?

>> Uh uh five.

>> You were watching bodies being cut up at

five.

>> I was. Yeah. Absolutely. very strange.

See, it was presented to me as

completely normal. Um, but but it was it

it it was strange. Fundamentally, he was

a good man, I believe.

>> But I think allowing a four to

5-year-old child be to see those things

is deeply traumatic in a way that you

probably don't recognize until later.

>> I I agree. It's it's come home to me

more and more as the years have gone by

that what happened to me in those years

in India

scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the

operating theaters and the dissections

the dissections. It was the gloom and

the misery and the despair that settled

over my family at that time and I don't

think I ever really recovered from that.

>> Did you have nightmares?

>> Yeah.

>> And what were those nightmares?

Um, usually nightmares of loss. Usually

nightmares of

suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a

I'm completely isolated, lost, alone.

>> The reason I ask these questions is

there's only ever been one other guest

who I sat here with a couple of years

ago

>> who I believe's dad was a surgeon.

>> Mhm.

>> And his dad brought him in to watch

operations and dissections when he was

young. Yeah.

>> And it scarred him in a way that he

didn't realize until later.

>> And he told me about the nightmares of

waking up in the night and seeing those

bodies of those people around his bed on

a predictable basis and told me he he's

actually the guy that um coached Michael

Jordan

>> and then um Kobe before Kobe Bryant um

passed away. And he told me still as an

adult those bodies join him at

nighttime. So he'll wake up at night

time and he'll see them around

>> around his bed. So,

>> well, thank you, universe. That didn't

happen to me. I I I do not have I don't

remember having gruesome nightmares. I

remember a feeling of loneliness and

abandonment. That's what I remember.

>> Loneliness and abandonment.

>> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was

always an outsider at school. Uh

everywhere I've been all my life. That's

what I'm for. I'm here to be an

outsider. I've come to that conclusion.

and and uh I need to do that well. I

need to provide an alternative point of

view on the past.

>> There's a real cost to being an

outsider.

>> Oh yeah. But there are also some

benefits. You know, we are what we are.

And and for me, I was always strange. I

had this childhood in in in India. I

didn't fit into the British school

system. I was a total failure at school.

I could not connect. I could not connect

with any of it. It seemed I just didn't

get it. What was this about? and and and

the cruelty, the viciousness. My my dad

went to a boarding school and had a good

experience. So, he sent me to a boarding

school in Durham in the north of

England. It was the crulest place,

beatings going on. I I was repeatedly

beaten about the bare buttocks by a

sadistic headmaster with a cane. I

couldn't fit in with the other kids at

school. And uh I don't feel victimized

for being an outsider. I feel I feel

it's a privilege. I feel I've been given

I've been given an opportunity to take a

different view of things as a result of

being an outsider.

>> Are there words unsaid here with these

two people in your life?

>> Yes, there are there are so many words

unsaid. I'd like to go back to my mom

and say,

you know, I understand why you were so

obsessed with keeping me alive and

making sure that I did something with my

life. And I'd like to say to my dad,

look, you you were pretty crazy, but you

you did at least inspire me to be

eccentric.

It's a funny thing getting older. I'm

75, 76 in August. One of the things it

does is it you realize how collapsed

life actually is. I remember being a

teenager and I remember being a young

man and and I remember being

middle-aged. And the feeling is you're

immortal. It's going to go on forever.

Everything's going to go on forever. And

it's long. It's long. Lots of time to do

the things you want to do. I have a

message. No, it's not long. There is not

lots of time. If there's things you want

to do with your life, start now. Start

right away. Don't wait. Otherwise,

you'll not have the opportunity. Life is

very short. It's a beautiful, beautiful

gift that the universe has given to us.

We are responsible for returning that

gift by as far as possible within the

circumstances that the universe has

given us living a full life and

contributing something worthwhile to

that life. Not being a robot, not being

commanded what to do, not We we need to

learn to think for ourselves. This is

something that is so easily forgotten.

It's a miracle that you and I are

sitting here at all that I'm here, that

you're here, that we're here together.

It's absolute miracle. It's a result of

billions and billions of years of

processes in the universe which had

nothing to do with us randomly bring us

together at this at this point. It's

it's really quite a miraculous

situation. To be alive, to be born at

all is a miracle. Um I think it was

Voltater who talking about reincarnation

uh who said um it's no more

extraordinary to be born twice than to

be born once.

>> Uh and I think there's a point in that.

>> Are you religious? You believe in a god

or

>> I would say that I am um that I pay

attention close attention to what I

would regard as the spiritual

non-physical side of life. Um but I do

not belong to any organized religion.

One of the things I don't like about

organized religion is that your

relationship to the divine, whatever you

call the divine spirit world, whatever

you want to call it, your relationship

is mediated in some way. Some priest or

rabbi or müller teaches you how to

mediate that relationship. And I I think

what's important in for me anyway in in

the spiritual inquiry is a direct

relationship, a direct experience.

Rather than being taught something, I

want to experience it for myself. And

that's why I found Iawaska very very

valuable. Um because it has enabled me

to experience something that is

absolutely impossible to experience in

normal everyday life. We're so plugged

in. We're so plugged in to the physical

world and we have to be we've got to be

we got to obey the laws of physics. We

got to deal with the economics of our

circumstances. You know, we have to make

our way through life. All of those

things we've got to do. Um, but

if they become our total focus, we

become shut off from everything and

anything else that may exist. And what

the big psychedelics can do if they're

taken in the right circumstances with

the right advice

with sincere intention, what they can do

is get you out of your own way and allow

you to connect to that wider realm that

normally you cannot connect to. And yes,

I do believe that a wider realm exists.

uh just in the same way that uh you you

know before the invention of the

microscope we had no idea that there

were bacteria I think I'm right about

that we start seeing these tiny little

things swimming around gosh major

discovery well they were always there we

just didn't have the kit to see them and

I'm suggesting that what psychedelics

can be and certainly what they used as

shamans by for is a technology a device

uh for getting you out of your own way

and allowing you to connect with other

levels of reality that in daily life it

doesn't serve you to be connected with.

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