Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Good to see you.

>> You too. Thanks for having me.

>> My pleasure.

>> Yeah.

>> How many podcasts have you done?

>> I don't know. I don't know the count,

but maybe tens.

>> Well, when we were talking, we were

talking in the lobby. I was like this

good dude would be a good guess because

we were talking about ancient Hindu

scriptures where you were talking to me

about something that sounds like a

nuclear bomb.

>> Yeah.

>> And I was like oh

>> the brahmastra

>> I need to know more about this.

>> Yeah. So um the brahmastra is part of

the mahabarat.

>> I mean you've talked about Mahabharat in

a bunch and

>> Yeah. Yeah. So the mahabharat is one of

the two Hindu epics. The other one is

Ramayan. But Mahabarat's more

interesting. It's more complicated. It's

like a lot of different stories interled

together. And um the brahmastra is the

equivalent of the hydrogen bomb.

>> And how is it described?

>> It's described as a weapon of like mass

destruction going to inhalate like human

population. Should not be used at any

cost. There's like a moral contract.

Like you you clearly have to be like,

you know, violating so many things at at

a deeply moral level to even like wield

it.

And um it's not actually it's not

actually accessible to most warriors.

There's probably like two warriors in

the world in in in in that era who were

allowed to use it. And um and it and it

has to be passed through special access

like a teacher has to like pass it on to

you the secret to use it almost like a

new think of it as like the equivalent

of a nuclear code, right? And um Arjuna

had it uh this this this uh particular

character in Mahabharat called Arjuna.

Um he was allowed to use it. Um and then

this other person was this basically

Arjuna had a teacher named Dona and um

Dona had a son named Ashwatama

and um Ashwatama was always jealous of

Arjuna. Arjuna was not Drona's son but

he was his model disciple and so Drona

passed on the secret of the brahmastra

to him and um um

Drona's son also wanted it but because

it was his son he also passed on the

secret to his son even though the son

wasn't as good as Arjuna and at there

was the during the war Arjuna and fought

on the opposite sides it it's it's just

you know circumstances and uh and and

and his and his dad died Asham was that

the teacher died in the war and so the

son got mad and like unleashed the

brahmastra and uh Lord Krishna had to

come and save save the planet to not not

get that destruction force.

>> How old is the Mahabraata?

>> Um again it's there's a lot of different

opinions on this so I don't actually

know for sure. My understanding is is at

least 1,500 to 2,500 years old. Like

like,500 years ago is the minimum. 2,500

years ago is the maximum. So it happened

in some period in in that thousand-y

year time frame between that. And um

there's still like it's it's still

unclear if like a lot of it is just like

you know been mythologized. Um and what

actually happened was just a war between

kins. Uh there were two groups of

people. the Panda and the Kawas and um

you know each side thought they were

fighting for their own rights and

justice but um at the end of the day you

can crudely understand it as like

essentially fight for the kingdom. Um,

basically there were like there there

was a previous generation and two

brothers and they and both the brothers

had a bunch of kids and those kids were

waring to get the next in line and um

that ended up being like a massive war

and a bunch of other allies fought on

each sides and um um so many amazing

weapons were used as part of the war and

a lot of these weapons are like

extremely like like described an extreme

level of detail that is pretty in

incredible like the there's a lot of

detail around like targeted weapons so

you could precisely identify a target

and just shoot at that. Um and then uh

>> does it explain like what the weapon is?

>> Yeah. So there's one weapon called the

Dastra where you can just specifically

target any any particular person or

group and it would just automatically

direct itself and do it almost like a

semi-autonomous

weapon. And then Lord Krishna had this

um weapon called the sudan chakra. It's

basically a discus and then you can just

release it and it'll go and specifically

identify somebody and chop up their head

and come back to your you right. It it

self-directs itself. So my what I was

amazed by is how um interesting it is in

terms of

um all the autonomy in the weapons semi-

autonomy or autonomy where the weapons

could just be directed at people or like

directed at you know a group of soldiers

and it would just go and do its job and

come back to the wielder and um um there

were so many different astras wunastra

nagastra remastra is obviously the

ultimate the the hydrogen bomb

equivalent and all of these are

described in a lot of detail and like

who has access to it and of course it's

it's mythologized. So it's described as

this like these arrows in your like back

of your uh shoulders, but you could you

could understand it as like you know

somebody having just access to a lot of

weapons and then um whoever was powerful

would go capture and colonize and like

gain power and um essentially a a fight

between a group of cousins. That that

that that's the bottom line of that

story. Now, if we think of history as

this linear progression from caveman to

us, Yeah. and we hear about autonomous

weapons that were written in the

Mahabraata somewhere around 2,000 plus

years ago, we go, well, a mythology.

>> Yeah.

>> But if not, if there's been some sort of

rise and fall of civilization, if there

has been catastrophic,

>> whatever it is, asteroid impacts,

shifting of the poles, whatever it is,

>> it's caused great disasters. You can

imagine that these people are

remembering a time where there was some

sort of very advanced civilization. And

this is what they're describing. Like if

you knew for a fact that there had been

a great advanced technologically

advanced civilization when we have

>> evidence that they had some technology

like the pyramids of Giza and stuff like

how did you do that? I don't how there's

some technology involved, right?

>> Yeah.

>> But we don't have evidence of the

technology. But if we did, if we knew,

you would look at the Mahabat and go,

"Oh, this is history." They're just

explaining it in a kind of crude

contemporary way for the time. Arrows

instead of, you know, semi-autonomous

drones with exploding heads on them.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, that's what we have now. All

those things that they're describing,

hydrogen bomb, semi-autonomous and

autonomous drones. I mean, they have

they have autonomous fighter jets now.

like they don't need people anymore.

Like this we're we're in that area right

now. So when you read about something

like that from the Mahabarata, you go

like okay what what was really going on?

>> Exactly. Yeah. I mean that that's always

been my fascination with with with those

epics and uh the level of detail with

which they described all these weapons

and who had access uh different levels

of access the status required to have

access and um uh how it was used in the

wars um different formations of the

soldiers like they had all these like

crazy formation structures like forming

the army like a lotus forming the army

like a um you know there something

called a chakra vuha like a like

literally like it has to have concentric

circles. So you cannot like actually get

into the innermost circle without going

through the outer circles and then you

can get killed by each of the flanks

whenever you're trying to enter in. And

the secret of how to actually break into

these vuhas, vuhas means formations,

u was only known to a few people. And um

it it's it's it's it's incredible like

you could say, okay, like somebody had

to be extremely um skillful to have that

sort of like visualizations and

imaginations of describing a story like

that. And and obviously like Tl Keen has

done an amazing job with a lot of the

rings, you know, and creating so much

detail at the same time like a lot of it

actually coming through in real life in

some form. Again, not exactly the same

weapons but similar style makes you

wonder was there actually something

around then and uh people have tried

excavations in all these areas. There's

like two main areas in the Mahabarat.

how Singapore was the name of the

kingdom and people have done excavations

around there and have like found some

artifacts that might date back to those

years. But uh there are also some

details that are described in the epics

that don't quite align with reality. For

example, all the men, all the main

warriors in in that era were described

as like very tall, very big um 7 8 ft,

whatever, you know, I don't even know

exact numbers, but um but um his studies

by archaeologists also say that people

who lived in those years in in those

regions were probably not more than 6 ft

tall. So it's it's not clear exactly

like what happened, what was correct,

what was not correct. And you know, we

just have to keep probing more. But I

find the idea fascinating to think of

like what could have existed in sacred

texts that was only partially

communicated to the next generation and

having a lot of like reinterpretations.

Another thing that is very interesting

to think about is Vic math. So um the

basically Vic math is like a branch of

mathematics that you know some people in

India are grown up learning like I I I

read it myself too and uh some people

actually practice it just to be sharper

at mental math for doing their exams

like GMAT and things like that GRE and

um um it has like a line in the Vedas

that says oh like one from the last

digit two from the first digit whatever

you know so many different ways of

multly multiplying two different numbers

like 97 * 96. Oh, like subtract the last

two digits, put it in the right,

multiply the first digits, put it in the

left. That's that's the result. And um

then you you wonder like, oh wait, the

Rigveda is so old. It's as old as it's

is the oldest sacred text out there. How

is it describing computation?

That feels

>> right,

>> very unreal. Like do they actually know

or understand advanced forms of

computation

even back in those days? And um

>> and how old is rig beta?

>> Um I don't exactly know how old it is.

>> Why don't we put that in perplexity?

>> Yeah, let's do that.

>> Let's find out.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, it is technically the oldest

sacred text out there.

>> And so what's interesting is I wonder

how old the stories were by the time

they were written down. like how much of

it is relayed person to person

for years and years just like the Bible

before it's ever actually written down.

Scholars usually date the composition of

the Rigveda to about 1500 to,200 B.CE.

So its oldest layer is roughly 3,200

3,700 years old today.

Like I if there really was like every uh

ancient culture has a story of a flood.

every everyone they all have an

apocalyptic

>> marbar had the same thing

>> was it

>> Marbarat had the same thing where there

was a big like almost like a tsunami

like thing I don't exactly know what it

was called but that was the collapse of

Lord Krishna's kingdom Daraka after the

war a lot of people died but some people

survived and even those who survived got

wiped out by a calamity or or like some

kind of like a um fight among themselves

and um most of the people who

participated in that era actually died.

>> Here it is. The primordial, how do you

say it? Manu.

>> Yeah,

>> Manu flood. Classic Hindu great flood

myth where the righteous king Manu is

warned by a divine fish about an

imminent doge that will destroy

humanity.

He builds a boat, loads it with his

family. It's like knowing the ark. It's

the same thing with seeds and animals.

ties it to the horn of the god in fish

form which towes the boat to safety

until the waters recede and the world is

repopulated.

>> They all have the same story. Yeah.

That's what's really crazy.

>> There is a there is a concept in um

Hindu uh philosophy called the yugas.

>> Mhm.

>> I'm reading a book about it right now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So uh there's like different

yugas and yugas are like thousands of

years and the concept is that the yugas

keep cycling around and so like uh we

are in the kal yuga right now and before

that was a dwara yuga that's when most

of mahabharat happened and before that

there was a traa where the ramayan

happened and before that there was

another yuga.

>> What is next after kal yuga?

>> It no there is nothing next after

kaluga. It goes back to the first one. I

forget the name of the first yuga

>> because the what the interpretation that

I'm reading is that we're not in Kalyuga

anymore and that Kalyuga ended in the

1900s and Dwaper Yuga started then.

>> No, no, we are in Kaluga right now.

>> 100%.

>> So why do people have different

interpretations? Like there is there is

that true? Yeah, there's like a guru

interpretation. There's like one

specific guru I see

>> that has this interpretation that

Kaliuga ended in the 1900s. Okay.

>> And that we're moving on. Interesting.

>> Yeah. But I don't know who's right

because it's it's an enormous cycle,

right? The cycles of humanity.

>> Yeah. Thousands of years. Thousands of

years. And uh

>> so

>> yeah. So these are the four yugas. Um

and um

>> so why do people have different

interpretations? What? Let me tell you

the book I'm reading.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh

see if this book is discredited. Young

Jamie, it is um

it's by a guy named uh David uh

Steinowitz

Stein

Steinmets. David Steinmets and the book

is called the Yugas. Interesting.

>> Yeah. I mean the the problem is when

someone's got their own interpretation

or some guru's interpretation, it

doesn't totally align. It's hard to know

who's right and who's wrong.

>> Yeah.

>> Keys understanding our hidden past,

emerging energy, age, and enlightened

future.

>> Yeah. So that go back up to that again.

So this is in the description. See what

it says that where it says in 1894 an

Indian sage gave us an explanation not

only for our hidden past but for the

trends of today and for future

enlightenment. So there's like one guy's

interpretation that this guy is going

off of.

>> I guess the difference might be that um

he thinks the yuga cycle is 24,000 years

whereas I think it's probably much

longer than that.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> four yugas together is 4,320,000

years.

>> You know what's really nutty?

>> Yeah. One of the really nutty things is

um both in the ancient Sumerian texts

and in some of the ancient Egyptian

texts, there's depictions before the

flood of people who reigned for

thousands of years as kings.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's common. It's not It's And it's

also they're referenced multiple times

in different scripts that are from

different parts of uh what was Sumera at

the time. Yeah,

>> it it's really weird because they take

it as established history once it gets

to a certain age once they get into like

whatever the age is where they can

verify that this person was the king for

a certain period of time. But it's all

in the same text as people that reigned

for 6,000 years.

>> Yeah.

>> It's it's really one just wipes out the

whole thing.

>> Yeah. And um I mean this is also

somewhat like tangentially related to um

um the firmy paradox

>> you know like if if you assume all these

things are happening on earth itself

that entire civilizations are getting

wiped out

>> um you and and like we always wonder you

you've explored this topic the most um

and um where are the aliens

>> right

>> and um there are different arguments

that like okay like the reason we I

haven't quite found that is because the

great filter exists and uh there is like

one entertaining theory that um I like

just for the sake of entertainment is um

almost all civilizations end up

advancing technologically a lot and um

either a calamity wipes them out or like

they build some misalign AGI and then

AGI wipes them out and um and because of

that um they never actually like end up

being visible to

Or the other theory is that like they're

like um we haven't quite built the

woyman probes to actually go find them.

And um both of them are plausible and um

it it you know the there's there's no

clear way to like know unless we

actually like send out enough probes.

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There's a bunch of possibilities. I mean

there's almost too many to count but

there's the possibility that they are

observing and that they don't want to

interfere and that we are on some sort

of a evolutionary cycle cycle of

cultural evolution civilization

evolution.

>> Yeah.

>> And one of the things about this the the

crazy ages that comes from the Samrian

text and from um the ancient uh the

hieroglyphs that depict the uh zeppet uh

how do you say it? Zepetti. No.

How am I saying that? What is that text

that ancient uh remember we talked about

it with Zahias and he denied its

existence?

Zepte, is that it? Either way, you're

dealing with these kings that reign for

thousands and thousands of years. Well,

you know, David Sinclair is in the

middle of this research now that's

they're working on life extension drugs

like that are actionable.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's it. Zepte.

>> Yeah, I've heard of that.

>> Um, so these, but this is what's so

weird. If they look at hieroglyphs, they

get to a certain point and they're like,

"Oh, Kufu, he was real. This guy was

real. All these people were real."

>> Yeah.

>> But then they get back to these guys

that reigned for thousands of years and

they go, "Oh, that was horshit."

>> But but why is it that all these people

have these stories that align with this

timeline that's pre flood?

>> It's all like the same story. Yeah. And

then if you're talking about

these ancient Hindu scriptures that are

discussing technology that seems

remarkably similar to technology that we

have today.

>> Yeah. The manas or flying cars basically

>> and probably what we're going to have

100 years from now or whatever it is or

or we could have gone that way in the

past.

>> And it's very entertaining to think of

like let's say something happens to us,

right? I don't want anything to happen

to us, but let's say something happens

to us. Would people really believe you

were like launching reusable rockets,

>> right? Or making FaceTime calls to

people in Australia?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like even fundamental things like

all we're doing today.

>> Um I think it's all like incredible.

Like there's there's a lot of things

that could be just technological ideas

or maybe people actually had it and the

knowledge of it was lost and it's not

been documented. It's not been passed

along and so we are skeptical if they

ever had it.

>> Yes. And so we end up reinventing it in

different forms again and again again

and we keep cycling through this

process.

>> Well, it also could be that this is the

natural progression of human curiosity.

The human curiosity and ingenuity always

moves into these very particular ways

like what's the best way to defeat my

enemies. Yeah. If we're always going to

be territorial primates, we're always

going to want to defeat our enemies.

We're always going to protect ourselves

from being invaded. So we're going to

make better in and just with

technological innovation, it just goes

down the same path. Oh, we figure out

bullets. Oh, we figure out nuclear

bombs. Well, we figure out well, we

don't even have to use an actual plane.

We can use an autonomous drone and that

delivers it. And then scale upwards and

onwards and AI and and then also life

extension. So, if these people were able

to make the pyramids like

you know there there's a lot of

speculation as to the timeline of the

pyramids, but let's just say they really

built it 2,500 BC. Let's just say back

then. What the were they using?

Like what were you What did you do? How

did you get these stones down from the

mountains that were 500 miles away?

>> How about this one?

>> How about that one? Yeah, we were going

to get to that for sure. There's a ton.

No, thanks. It's good to good as any.

How about these temples that they find

in India that are carved entirely out of

one piece of stone?

What did you do? How did you do that?

How long ago did this happen? How many

of them were buried and then they had to

uncover them and then like figure out

like what is this? Who made it? There's

no timeline. No one really knows.

There's no evidence of tools that were

capable of doing this kind of work back

then. And they're huge and beautiful and

perfect. And they have like acoustic

properties and the geometry is

fantastic. Yeah.

>> It's nuts, man.

>> It's not just that. All of these temples

were actually just built uh not just

they were specifically the locations for

them were picked out so that you get the

right uh seismic vibrations over there

in terms of like uh proximity to the

ocean, the gravitational waves from the

sun and the moon. People actually made

that level like look at this man.

Imagine the undertaking of carving that

temple out of the side of a

giant piece of rock.

>> Yeah.

>> You screw up one thing and it's over.

>> There's no simulations. You just have to

like build it.

>> Well, what did they have? This is the

question. Like imagine today if we had

to do this. Look, it's possible. This is

a possible endeavor. It can be done.

>> Yeah. But imagine what kind of

technology would we we have to need to

map it out to make sure that it was all

precise that it all align. I mean it's

precise within like millimeters from

point to point and everything is done

out of one piece of stone. Like what did

they do? Was it chisels? Did you do that

with chisels? That's crazy. How many

times you have to sharpen your

chisel? That's nuts. Or do you have

something completely different? Because

some of the more intricate ones, see if

you can find these. Some of the crazy

ones inside these temples, there's

sculptures that are three-dimensional

and they're carved like inside of the

sculpture. So, there's like an outer

area and then there's these all these

openings and then inside it's highly

detailed. Like, how'd you even reach in

there?

>> It just says they use chisels and

hammers and I don't think that's

possible.

and careful geometric planning planning.

>> People trying to do that. They see like

this is how much work someone could do

in like 12 hours with a a hammer and

they get nowhere, let alone like perfect

and looking good.

>> Yeah, it's nuts, man. And there's a lot

of evidence of stuff like that all over

the world, which is really weird. You

have the stuff in Peru like Saki Huan

when you look at these stones and it

looks like they're melted into place and

they're 900 tons. Like what did you do?

>> Yeah. How did you even get it up there?

>> How'd you where'd they get it? How'd you

get it there? How'd you align it

perfectly? Built in only 18 years. How

do they know that?

>> How do they know that? Cuz it's uh

attributed to one king.

>> Yeah.

>> So, King Krishna the 1 756 to 773

CE.

Maybe. I mean, how do you know though?

>> Yeah. They said the archaeologist said

it would have they calculated it would

take them 100 years to do it.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, this is where like, you

know,

>> I don't know.

>> Different historian accounts are all

like muddled up, you know.

>> Uhhuh. Well, it's a real problem.

History is a real problem.

>> But yeah, it goes back to like the thing

you were saying, right? You know, what

is one thing that's common across all

these different ages is human curiosity.

So, I mean, that's something that, you

know, I would love to get your take on

this. Um like I've been toying with this

idea called a curiosity premium which is

the most effective people the most

successful people have always been the

most curious people the ones who have

been good at asking the best questions

and they tend to do better in every

aspect of their life and uh you're

you're a good example of that. So that's

why I would love to get your take on

this. And the reason I believe that is

because um long-term people who

continuously ask questions tend to do

better. They make more money. They have

a higher quality of life. They're happy.

They have more compounding

relationships. People find them more

interesting. And so they compound their

relationships over time. And so uh

naturally they end up succeeding. But

their spirit of inquiry, their intrinsic

curiosity doesn't actually stop once

they succeed. It only they just

channelize it even more. And so that's

why it keeps compounding. And I would

argue that like it's the only quality,

it's the only like quality that makes us

really human, you know, in this world

where

>> we can seek a lot of information, get

information way faster than ever before.

It feels like that's that one universal

human quality that's existed since

ancient time since the oldest text. Like

in fact in in the Riga

um you're explicitly encouraged to seek

wisdom more than wealth. And it's not

just an idea specific to Hinduism. That

specific idea exists in the Bible. It

exists in the Quran. Exists in the

Torah. It's not that seeking wealth is

admonished by religious texts. It's

actually that it's more important to

seek wisdom. And um you know like you

can that why I said you're a good

example of that is like sure you have a

very very large podcast but the way

you're running it is like you're just

curious about a lot of things and asking

a lot of questions and I think that's

that one quality that's very important.

So um and I feel like it's the oldest

thing is the only thing that we've known

since ancient time being curious.

>> Well I I I think it's stimulating to

people and genuine curiosity is

stimulating to other people. when when

someone is genuinely curious about

something, I become curious about it. I

think it's contagious.

>> And I think that it's it's also an

authentic quality. And I think there's

there's something about really wanting

to know something and being interested

in something. And if you're curious,

generally, you're going to ask more

questions about something so you have a

deeper understanding of it. So if you're

trying to do whatever you're trying to

do, a sport, a game, you you'll probably

get better at it because you're more

curious because instead of just assuming

things, you'll ask more questions.

You'll reexamine things. It's genu it's

it's one of the most important human

qualities. And to me, it's one of the

most attractive human qualities. It's

always been. When I meet curious people,

I'm always interested. I'm always like

like, "Tell me what you're curious

about." And I'll tell you what I'm

curious about. Let's talk. You know,

it's it's um and this podcast started

out genuinely because of well, it was a

lot of just talking with friends,

>> but it also led into like one of my very

first guests, actual guests, was Graham

Hancock.

>> Mhm.

>> And it's just cuz I was curious because

I had read Fingerprints of the Gods and

I'd seen him talk. I'd seen speeches and

I'm like, I want to know like what do

you know? What do you think's going on?

And uh he's another guy incredibly

curious and absolutely fascinated with

his his takes on ancient history. He has

been talking about this subject a long

time. And when he first when he first

wrote Fingerprints of the gods, I think

that came out in like

I want to say it was like 97 or 98 or

something like that. And I remember

reading it and so many of my friends,

you know, educated friends like this is

horshit. Why are you paying attention to

this? More and more and more as time

goes on, it's been proven that he's

correct. The timelines shifted back and

from the publication of that book, the

discovery of Gobecletepe and the

surrounding area,

>> like it's like, okay, now we realize,

well, there was some crazy going on

at the very least 11,000 years ago. So,

we pushed civilization back 5,000 years.

>> So, like, and this is just what we found

now. And we keep finding things. Keep

digging. Keep looking. And then you see

the stuff that they're finding

underneath the pyramid with this radio

tomography where they're looking under

the pyramid that it seems that there's

structures under the py. You've seen

that stuff.

>> I haven't seen that.

>> I had the scientist that's involved in

it. He's an Italian guy, Filipo Bondi,

and he came on the podcast. Wonderful

accent. Almost as good as yours.

>> It was uh amazing. uh but he's

describing the use of this stuff and

that they've used it successfully on

known areas in uh pyramids and other

structures and they can det in for in

fact

>> they um there's a in Italy there is a uh

particle collider that is underneath a

mountain

>> and using this technology which is

satellite based technology they get an

accurate description of this particle

collider that's I think it's 1,200

meters underground. Like how how far is

that thing underground?

We'll find out. But it's like deep under

stone. And they find that they they can

get an accurate like they can actually

give you the dimensions of this particle

collider. They have like an image of it.

And this same technology is showing that

there's these columns underneath the

pyramid in various places that are 20 m

wide and they have coils around them.

They don't know what the hell they are.

And they the whole structure of this

thing, it's not small. It goes almost a

kilometer into the ground. There's like

this enormous like bottom of it. And it

seems like it's something that's

constructed. And so they're like, "Okay,

well, the pyramid is crazy. It's crazy

enough, but if there's something

underneath it that's a man-made or

someone made it that's a kilometer deep

into the ground, like what the are

we even talking about?" Like, who made

this? What What did they have?

>> 1.2 km in

>> 1.2 kilometers into the mountain.

>> That's nuts. It's a half a mile

in it plus into the mountain.

>> And this thing can see through all that

and get this accurate depiction of this

particle collider. And it's showing with

multiple scans, not just one, multiple

scans and different technology, the same

exact images, the same exact structures

underneath this immense

2,300,000

stone structure that almost perfectly

aligns to true north, south, east, and

west. Like what? What was going on?

Don't tell me police. Don't tell me

copper tools. Like what the was

going on? Something crazy. And I have a

feeling our simplistic explanation of it

is just doing no one any justice. It's

doing no service to history. It's doing

no service to our understanding. They've

got to be a little bit more open in the

fact that they are perplexed.

>> And not just perplexed by stuff like

this. This is a 3D print of an actual

vase that exists in Egypt that they

found that is they found it in tombs of

the old kingdom. This thing was somehow

another it's made with diorite. So it's

incredibly hard stone and made to like a

thousandth of a human hair in and it's

Yeah. like crazy dimensions

>> like the way the the precision of it and

wasn't turned on a lathe because it has

handles.

>> Yeah.

>> So you look at the handles on the side.

Well, you can't carve the and those are

perfect, too. Like the alignment of

everything and it's like you just look

at it. Oh, it's a vase. No big deal. But

no, it's kind of crazy. Like how

did they cut that out? There's also

these there's all these core marks in

some of the stones that they find in

Egypt and they've analyzed the amount of

revolutions per minute that you would

have to go through to be able to cut

through something and leave these lines

and not defies explanation. Like what is

this? This is crazy. This is not sand

and copper and just rubbing things. No,

this is some insane technology that we

don't understand. There's scoop marks

out of the bottoms of some of these

stones. It's like what? What the is

this? How'd you scoop rock? Like what?

It looks like ice cream. Like they just

went like what are they doing there?

There's so many questions.

>> What tools did do they even have to do

all these things?

>> They had copper. I mean there's there's

some evidence that they had some iron

and then I think Tuton Common had a

dagger that was actually made from

meteorite which is interesting. you

know, like when they could find

meteorites and make things out of them,

it was very valuable, obviously. But the

just the sheer volume of work that they

did there, it's you if like you look at

the temple in man, you look at all the

the three major pyramids, you look at

all the different temples and all the

construction and the older you go, the

deeper into the sand they go, the more

complex these things are, which is even

weirder. Yeah.

>> So it seems like civilization after

civilization just they would there was

probably a rise and fall with their

technology as well.

>> Absolutely. I think it's it's it's just

incredible that none of this knowledge

was properly documented ever. And uh

it's a whole like line of work to just

go understand like how to even rebuild

these things leave alone how did they

build it.

>> Well think about what we're doing right

so all of our knowledge is essentially

stored on hard drives and paper. Mhm.

>> Those are the the two things that are

going to deteriorate the quickest.

>> Maybe we should like take a dump of the

internet and

>> put it on a rock,

>> go preserve it somewhere so that Yeah.

>> even if our our civilization is wiped

out and all the data centers are like

gone or whatever,

>> right?

>> Whoever comes next can go figure it out.

Well, I mean, then you've got to always

assume that even if they found a hard

drive that they would like, how long

would it take for them to backineer what

we did and figure out what these ones

and zeros actually mean?

>> Yeah.

>> That what is which is one of the most

bizarre and fantastic accomplishments of

modern civilization is that like

>> this is a terabyte.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is nuts.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I don't know what your first

computer had. I don't remember.

Definitely not not even a gigabyte

probably.

>> No, like a few hundred megabytes was

your hard drive.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, I remember when they first

came out with gigabytes, I was like,

"This is nuts."

>> Yeah. You remember like when Gmail

launched and gave everybody like free

email storage, unlimited email storage,

and the bottom sliding bar would just

keep increasing in terms of the total

allowed size.

>> Yeah.

>> And that was nuts to me. And Yeah. And

and uh I think yeah we take it for

granted that we have like infinite RAM

and infinite hard disks and nobody has

to worry about like you know you back in

those days you would worry about like

taking too many photos on your phone.

>> Right.

>> Right. And then you have to go delete

all the old ones or bad ones.

>> Yeah. You'd run out of storage on your

phone.

>> Yeah. And then you would have to buy

like an external hard drive to keep

storing things.

>> Keep transferring stuff from your phone

to the hard disk.

>> I remember the old Android phones. You

get a SD card. You could slip one of

those in there and you could store

images on that so you could

>> save space.

>> Yeah.

>> And all that stuff is so vulnerable.

It's so vulnerable. And again, if a

completely alien society had to come

down and find our hard drives and they

went a totally different path of

technology. They'd have to backineer,

reverse engineer everything that we did,

try to figure out, you know, what what

what are we using? What operating

system? How's the operating system work?

Is it Unix? Is it Linux? Is it like what

is it? How do they do it? It would be a

nightmare.

>> They would need an advanced AI to like

figure it all out for them,

>> right?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And so, uh, that's just if the

hard drive survive, right? So, if

there's some massive flood, cataclysm,

whatever, some some horrific thing that

damages all of our electronics, which is

totally possible,

>> you know, just some solar flare, some

intense,

>> you know,

>> or just just just another lab leak,

>> right? Yeah. Just time, a lab leak in

time.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's nuts. And it we could go back to

zero real quick and we would basically

be like preppers and hunt. hard to

reverse engineer everything again.

>> It would be almost impossible.

>> Which is why I'm really fascinated by

the flood the post flood timeline

because if these people like Graham

Hancock and a lot of these other folks

that have speculated that there was

probably a very advanced civilization

that went in a completely different

direction many thousands of years ago.

If you look at like the emergence of

like Sumere and you know Mesopotamia and

that area which a lot of people

attribute to be the earliest known

civilization that's around 5,000 plus

6,000 years ago rightly.

>> So the flood's like 11,000 years ago

>> plus. So you're looking at like 5,000

years of what?

>> That's not even that long in the grand

scheme of things.

>> No, not to the earth but for people

pretty long. Like think of how

long it took us to get our

together. Yeah.

>> It took thousands and thousands and

thousands of years of people probably

being monsters. Just being the the worst

of the worst. And that that's probably

the only way they survived. There's

probably a lot of cannibalism. There's a

lot of murder.

>> There was a lot of like horrific

going on for 5,000 years until people

slowly but surely figured out

agriculture again. Yeah.

>> Started building walls. Everybody

relaxed a little. got some solid weapons

to keep people away so you could work on

math. And then next thing you know,

civilization emerges again and it goes

right, you know, goes right back onto

the cycle. And then you start reading in

the the Rig Va about stuff that happened

thousands of years. You go, wait, what

the is this? Like what happened?

>> Yeah.

>> And that's my belief. Yeah. I think

there was something going on on Earth

many many many thousands of years before

established beginnings of history that

was very bizarre and probably technology

that went in a completely different

direction than what we're doing now with

combustion engines and circuits and all

the different things that we use. They

probably figured out some other kind of

technology.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is totally possible. And it's it's

amazing like it's amazing to think of

like what if we could rediscover all of

that again. And

>> yes, well I would love to be able to I

would love to just have a w if I could

choose one window in time to go back to

see what it would look like. I would

100% pick ancient Egypt while they're

building.

>> Mhm. The pyramids.

>> Yeah.

>> Show me what the was going on.

>> Yeah.

>> There's just just put me in a big

hamster wheel. There's a big plastic

bubble where no one could see me. Just

let me violate space and time and exist

there for just a few minutes. Just let

me look. I think that would be the most

insane thing that you could see about

humans in human history.

>> Yeah.

>> I just I want to know what they knew,

what they had, what they used.

>> Look, this thing Petra is same time

period at least attributed to 7,000

roughly BC.

>> Jesus. And they, you know, how would you

do that?

>> How?

>> The details of all those car carvings is

just insane.

>> Insane.

>> Yeah.

>> And what in 7,000 BC? What are the

tools?

What the hell were you using? How did

you make a temple out of the side of a

mountain? Look at the size of

it, man. The size of those columns.

>> It would be hard to do anything like

this even today.

>> It would be incredibly difficult.

insanely time consuming.

>> Oh. Uh yeah, the Caliosa Temple, by the

way, I uh I don't have it up right now,

but the uh in 1650 or so, someone sent a

thousand people to try to destroy it,

and after three years of doing nothing,

they stopped. They barely made a dent on

a couple statues.

>> Yeah. A lot of times when invasions

happen in India, like

>> they tried really hard to it up and

couldn't.

>> Oh, wow.

>> That's crazy.

>> That's very robust.

That's a great way to describe it. It's

just there's so much of that stuff

that's so interesting because it's so

undeniable. It's so undeniable in its

scale. So undeniable in its complexity

and the the planning and the the the

understanding that you you had to have a

a deep knowledge of geometry, of

measurement, of you had to have accurate

Yes. everything. sturdiness like resist

like calamities like earthquakes. If you

had that floods, what tools are you

using?

>> Yeah.

>> Like how are you doing this?

>> Yeah.

>> How are you coordinating all these

people and getting them to do stuff? And

>> I mean sure conditions must have been

way harsher. Like I'm sure people didn't

really have a choice but to do these

things because back in those days like

the only way you could take care of your

food and clothing and shelter is like

you commit yourself as a labor laborer

to the state to the kingdom. But you

could also ask like how what gave them

the initiative or drive to go do these

things.

>> Yeah. Well, that description is perhaps

of a later time. We don't even really

know what civilization was like when

these were constructed.

>> Yeah. the the real the real problem is

the material science. The real problem

is like you there's a lot of things that

you have to have to make those things.

It's not as simple as a sculpture like

Michelangelo making a sculpture out of

something that's like fairly easy to

carve into as far as far as stone goes.

You know, this is the scale is imp it's

so undeniable

that like something something some piece

of our understanding is missing. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean it it it like looking at

all this like everyone should just be

like a lot more humble, right? Like like

we don't actually know that much like

the what we know is like so little like

like whatever like the same thing as

what Socrates said. What we know is very

very little.

>> And the only thing we we should all

strive to be is just be curious. And um

I think there's a lot of tendency for

people to like think like oh like we

have all this advanced technology we're

so amazing like look at us. And it's

like, wait, hold on. Like, you don't

even understand what happened thousands

of years ago. And uh there's so much out

there to just go and explore and learn

and like get better at understanding

more.

>> What is this place?

>> This is Yeah, this is unreal.

>> This is called the Ora Caves. Timeless

wonder carved in stone.

>> They're all I think it's all like kind

of the same area.

>> Yeah, it's it's the same Allora cave in

the Shiva Temple that you saw.

>> Look at that. My god. Look at this

stuff. It's insane.

And again, there's no steel back then.

>> It's actually really symmetrical. It

It's It's not even like uh in Can you go

back to the f the first one with with

the symmetrical top? Yeah.

>> Look at the symmetry at the top. This is

>> It's nuts.

>> It looks like that mall in uh New York

they made where the World Tra

>> Yeah. But way more robust.

I mean, how what what did what were you

they you this is the thing is like the

material science aspect of it.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like you don't have the ability to

do Look at that top one. Go to that top

one again. The one that you just had,

Jamie.

>> Yeah, that one.

>> Look at that's crazy, man. I mean, I am

just blown away when I see stuff like

that. My mind just starts racing and I

just think, how did you do this? Who who

was involved? How was it planned? How

was it so symmetrical? What were the

tools?

Like what were the tools, man? If you

don't have steel,

>> you don't have what are you using? How'd

you do that? I

>> mean, most of it is done with stone,

clearly, right? So,

>> I guess I guess I doubt it. I bet they

had something else. I bet they had

something else that over time eroded

just like metal would today. I mean, if

you left a shovel outside today

and you came back to that same spot 500

years from now, there's nothing. That

shovel's gone, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And you've got to assume that these many

thousand-year-old temples that were

carved out of a mountain,

whatever tools they used probably got

absorbed by the earth. And the only

thing that's remaining,

>> it's giving me a weird thought. Like

when they make a big building downtown

though, they only bring the crane in for

a temporary period of time. And there's

only so many cranes on the planet

currently, too. So,

>> Right.

>> True.

>> You take it and you move it, you go take

it to the next spot.

>> Yep. Yeah. True.

>> Yeah. I don't know.

>> Yeah. Especially something like this,

like if they had heavy equipment and

machinery and whatever the they

were using, they probably moved it and

then moved it out and then it probably

rotted away and now it's gone. If there

was machinery. If there wasn't, like

there must have been something else.

Some other kind of like some technology

that we haven't even imagined. Yeah.

>> But it's like their

their commitment to art too was so

fascinating cuz these aren't just

structures. They're incred.

>> Yeah. Intensely beautiful.

>> Intensely ornate.

>> Yeah.

>> So it's not it's not just that they

wanted to build like a functional

structure that good architecture. No,

it's this it's a fascinating artwork and

it's so intricate. There's so many

different features and so many different

images of of different people and beings

and animals and elephants. And

>> there's one more temple like you could

pull out like it's called the Tangar

temple.

>> Oh, I've seen that one too. Yeah. Yeah.

>> That was done more recently in the in

the age of the Cholas and um it's um

it's pretty incredible.

>> When did they do that one?

>> Um I don't know the exact number but

more recent than the other ones that you

saw.

>> All of them are nuts, man. And then

there's stuff like that all over the

world. Whoa.

>> This was done as a as a project by the

king um to to basically make a name for

himself.

>> Wow. That's incredible.

Is that multiple pe pieces of stone or

did he carve that whole thing out of

stone too?

>> Probably multiple pieces.

>> So that's actually like construction.

>> Yeah.

>> Not like removal.

The other ones are it's essentially a a

giant sculpture.

Wow, it's so pretty. Look how geometric

it is, too.

>> That's what amazes me. Like, they didn't

actually have all these simulations and

CAD tools and all these things,

>> right?

>> And uh

>> what year was this made, Jamie?

>> Does it say

it's just so incredible how much of this

stuff exists where it's really baffling?

Like I just found out recently that the

Aztecs didn't build those temples that

they found them.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. They found like the Tinoitlon.

They they call it the place where the

gods were born.

>> Mhm.

>> The Aztecs found it and uncovered it.

And then on the when uh was it Tano

Chitlan or uh Tioto which whichever one

it was on the consecration day when they

were done with like whatever they were

doing with it to celebrate they killed

somewhere between 20,000 and 80,000

people in 4 days.

>> Damn.

>> Not exactly the mindset of the type of

people that would construct something

like that,

>> you know. So those are the people that

found it and it might have been sitting

there for a thousand years and then they

came along and said, "Oh, this is cool.

Let's live here." Okay. Well, what was

the society that lived there before

them? And where are they and what

happened and how' they do this and why'

they do it and why did they have it

aligned with the constellations? Like

what were they doing? Yeah,

it's some some of the some of the

calculations are pretty pretty amazing,

like how they timed it, how they

positioned it, how they cared about

planetary positions and stuff like that.

Sure, like some of it could even be

pseudocience, but whatever. I think just

the level of like calculations they were

making back in those days without, you

know, powerful computers is just

outstanding.

>> It's just nuts and it doesn't make

sense. It's like okay they're making it

without powerful computers. So what are

they using?

>> I mean at one point the word computer

just meant a human

>> right

>> like human beings would be doing the

calculations. That was their only job

like to like multiply two numbers or

like to to make some astronomers were

actually the first mathematicians.

The term mathematician and astronomer

were used synonymously at one point.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Why is that? Why why most of the stars

and math?

>> Yeah. Because like studying the stars

involved making a lot of geometry

calculations and um um that was kind of

actually one of the first set of

mathematicians in India. People like

Arya Bata Bascara all these guys were

actually astronomers too. They were not

just mathematicians.

M

>> and um Arya was earlier to like like the

idea of using zeros and then um he had a

lot of like contributions in geometry

and he was doing all this like just

because he was interested in astronomy.

>> Isn't there evidence of Pythagore

theorem in ancient is it ancient

Samrian?

Is it

>> it's some anc something something that

predates Pythagoras.

>> Interesting. My my theory is that even

though it was not formulated as a

pythogan theorem like I'm sure people

had to understand concepts of sign ss

and cosiness and like you know whatever

is the right angle for the right incline

to get this right level of like geometry

you need to you needed to have some

implicit understanding of it to build

these kind of structures. There's no way

you could do it without that.

>> Yeah 100%. and and you have to have

incredible measurement tools like not

just the actual mathematics.

>> Okay. The oldest known evidence of

Pythagoran theorem dates from old

Babylonian clay tablets from about 1900

to600 B.CE roughly 1,000 years before

Pythagoras. Isn't that wild? like how

how Clay Tabots often cited uh used what

we now call the Pythagorean theorem to

complete to compute rather the di

diagonal of uh rectangles

and squares including an excellent

approximation. Look at this. This is

nuts, man. Vadic ritual text explicitly

states the rule equivalent I don't know

how to say that. What is that? A A B

square C= C^ square for the diagonal of

a rectangle that includes numerical

examples predating or roughly

contemporary with classical Greek

mathematics. So completely different

parts of the world.

>> Yeah.

>> And they're coming up with the same

stuff.

>> Exactly. Because they're all curious.

That's it.

>> Yeah. They're all curious and eventually

all curiosity leads to truth or some

form of it. I would argue that anything

anything that's of impact in the world

has only been done by curious people. In

hindsight, we label those people as

successful, as smart, or rich, but the

common trait across all of them has been

like curious.

>> Well, that's certainly a powerful trait.

And people that aren't curious are not

fun.

>> Yeah, they're not interesting. So,

because of that, they don't attract

other smarter, interesting people. and

therefore they won't be able to do

something very meaningful in the world.

>> So it's it's it's it's kind of like um

um it's less about and and it applies to

your personal relationships and personal

life too. It's not just about

professional success like you'll have a

more fulfilling life with your wife or

your kids if you're a more curious

person. You ask them more questions. You

you you take interest in them, right? So

that's that's the one quality everybody

wants in personal relationships is like

taking interest in them and like

actually understanding them better or

like being curious about common things

and um so it's not just that you know

being curious leads to success. It's

more that people around you want you to

be successful if you're curious because

um you will have more compounding and

fulfilling relationships.

>> I would agree with that. Yeah. I'd say

it's one of the more more important

qualities of human beings. I mean it's

led to everything that we have today.

All curiosity has led to all of our

architecture, math. Yeah. Everything.

Art, everything.

>> The transistor, like you know the story

of the transistor.

>> Yeah.

>> So Bell Labs was basically employing as

many like like history adjusted as many

telephone engineers back then as the

number of software engineers today. But

only three people cared enough to

question whether you should use these

really hot giant vacuum tubes for

amplifying telephone signals. So vacuum

tubes were very big, power hungry and uh

very hot and so they were not fall

tolerant and it's very expensive and so

three people questioned the need for

that and came up with the idea of the

transistor to to to amplify current and

that that was the Nobel Prize winning

discovery and not just that it was

useful to amplify telephone signals. It

basically led to the rise of modern

computing and we wouldn't have an iPhone

like this today if if not for those

three people. Do you know what the

tinfoil hat conspiracy theory about

transistors is?

>> No.

>> It that they are back engineered from

the Roswell crash along with fiber

optics.

>> Any more?

>> So, uh, we read this on the podcast.

Remember Jamie? There's the two

scientists that were attributed. There's

this one scientist that said they

weren't even remotely exceptional guys

and that they gave them the credit for

this so that they didn't have to reveal

the true nature of where this technology

came from.

>> I see. Interesting.

>> So again, tinfoil hat securely on our

heads. This is not something I believe.

>> Okay.

>> This is just something that's fun. Um

there's a few inventions that came out

of that time period roughly after 1947

>> that are weird and one of them is fiber

optics and one of them is a transistor

and these are supposedly attributed to

back engineering programs.

>> So the Roswell crash, I don't know if

you ever paid any attention to it. It's

a real weird one because the cover of

the Roswell Daily Record said that the

government has a crash disc that landed

in the desert. Bunch of witnesses, bunch

of people saw it.

>> It's also people that saw um supposedly

saw physical bodies of these creatures

and a supposedly uh

again, who knows what's true, but Truman

went to the site. He visited it and then

the planes, two separate planes were

flown to Wright Patterson Air Force base

uh which was uh I think it was just

right base back then. I don't think it

was right Patterson but they they flew

them out and the idea was this material

was so important they didn't want to

risk one plane crashing. So they flew it

in two different planes and that this

stuff has always been known to be stored

at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.

That's what everybody always talks

about. And then a lot of it was moved to

Bell Labs. And wow,

>> there was a company called the American

Computer Company. And back in the day,

the American Computer Company was just

like it was a consumer website where you

could go and say, "Oh, I need a Windows

computer that does this, that, and the

other thing." And you could just put in

whatever your specs were, and they would

build it for you. But they had a whole

section of their website dedicated to

Bell Labs and back engineered UFO

technology and all they talked about in

this one like whoever ran it was like a

cook. I don't Is that still

around

>> that website?

>> Yeah. American computer company. Is it

still around?

>> Interesting.

>> So this is like the 1990s I think. So

you're saying your your your theory I

mean not that you believe in it but your

theory is that uh the transistor was not

like invented it was known and it was

given to the

>> there's apparently a giant leap between

the first ideas of the transistor and

then what it what actually came about

and how much money had to be spent to

create it off of this leap. This was

this

>> assertion by these scientists that were

trying to examine this. The thing about

Bell Labs is there's a military base

right outside of Bell Labs and they say,

"Well, that military base is to guard

New York City." But New York City is

quite a flight away, but Bell Labs is

right there.

>> Yeah.

>> And they were working on some deep dark

at Bell Labs for sure because I've

had a bunch of people on that were

talking about uh remote viewing

exercises that they were doing out of

Bell Labs. You know, we've had a bunch

of people that came on and and talked

about various programs that were going

on that were like top secret programs

that were happening that were being run

through Bell Labs. Like there's some

weirdness to that place. Like real

weirdness.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. And it's fun. Yeah,

>> the idea that like

>> you know that

>> it it it definitely feels very

disconnected like okay like you were

using all these vacuum tubes um and then

suddenly you're like okay like what if

we just use semiconductors

okay that there's definitely a pretty

far drift from what you're doing

currently to what you're supposed to do

>> and um um and also the the the idea of

the first transistor and what ended up

being used in chips

the junction transistor are quite

different too. So they're like big leaps

in terms of what the core idea was. It's

not an incremental change. Um the way I

thought about it was like okay that's

like tens of years of work and that's

why they made a big change and so if you

actually looked into the individual

milestones they had maybe it would have

looked pretty different. But your um

conspiracy theory is pretty interesting.

Like

>> it's always fun.

>> Yeah. Um and and also there's just too

many stories of this and David Grush has

you know on oath said that they there

are back engineering programs and he was

read into these and that they've been

around for a long time but

>> this is the assertion of that movie the

age of disclosure that the real problem

is that they have misappropriated funds

and lied to Congress and so they come

out and tell you okay we do have this

program well guess what everybody goes

to jail because you guys are a bunch of

liars and uh you've been stealing money

and you've been doing whatever you want

to do with this money. I don't know like

how much how much oversight is there on

back engineering UFO programs, you know?

So, probably a lot of people get in

trouble. A lot of people go to jail. On

top of that, these things are all being

done by weapons manufacturers, right?

Like where are you going to bring them

to? Well, you're going to bring them to

Loheed Martin or you going to bring them

to, you know, Rocket Dine or it's going

to be someone that does that kind of

work. Yeah. You're not going to do it on

your It's not going to be like we'll do

it. No, you're going to have to bring it

to people that already make spaceships

or bring it to people that already make

jets.

>> Yeah.

>> And so they have a massive competitive

advantage over any other company that's

doing it. So then there's other

companies that also had contracts with

the United States government they can

sue. And so he lays out all the problems

with disclosure. And their assertion is

that the only what we need if we really

want to find out the truth is we're

going to need widespread amnesty for all

these people that were involved. Mhm.

>> My problem with that is that's what I

would say too. If I had been stealing

money for decades and decades, I'd be

like, I we need amnesty and I'll tell

you where all this stuff is. I'm like,

how do we know what this stuff is,

whether or not these are just top secret

military programs with advanced

propulsion technology that's unavailable

to the public and they're going to say

that is aliens and they backgineered

this and they did that. Like, they

clearly don't want to tell people. They

don't want people to know. I think a

large part of it is probably because

they could get in trouble. But I think

also a large part of it is because it's

fun to keep secrets from people.

>> Yeah.

>> Especially when you're the government.

Why tell them? those people.

>> Yeah.

them. They don't even know UFOs are

real.

>> Meanwhile, you know, we're going into a

bunker in the middle of the mountain and

we're remote viewing. You know, it's

it's probably there's probably a lot of

fun involved in having access to

information that most people would kill

for.

>> Yeah. I mean there's so much information

that um we just we just don't have

access to.

>> Which brings me to this question with it

seems like one of the things that's

happening with uh both with AI and with

technology in general is that you have

more and more access to information and

more and more answers to questions than

ever before.

>> Yeah.

>> At a certain point in time there's going

to be no bottleneck.

>> Yeah.

>> And we're going to know everything about

everything. So, how is anyone in

government going to keep a secret? How

is any corruption ever going to be

possible? Is at a certain point in time

all of it will get uncovered? Like, it's

much more difficult to commit murder now

with DNA evidence, right? Back in the

1800s, like I didn't see nothing. I

wasn't there. And then you're free.

Like, now they do your fingerprints.

Now, they get your DNA. Now, there's

flock cameras. There's like more and

more and more. It's harder to get away

with things. Yeah.

>> Ultimately, there's going to come a time

where there's so much data and so much

information and you could run all your

questions like there's an AI fact

checker for politicians now. Yeah.

>> So, while a politician is giving a

speech, you can run an AI fact checker

and in real time it will tell you

whether or not these people are full of

This it seems like the direction

is there's not going to be anybody full

of in the future because it's not

going to be possible.

>> Yeah. I mean the government still would

have access to things that we human

beings wouldn't have access to like like

like regular people um and um

particularly defense related weapons

related like for example u when they did

the uh ven venezuelan thing

>> um I don't think people in Venezuela

even understood like what even those

weapons were

>> I don't think we did they were described

as like yeah they were described as

something the the literal words used

were like alien like technology.

So we even we didn't know that um the

United States had access to uh that

quality of defense technology until that

incident happened. So there are

obviously going to be secrets right

especially the highest stakes things um

I would say like building frontier AI

models is similar to that. Um, of

course, as more and more models are

getting open source, I think the

knowledge is diffusing, but still, uh,

the the true amount of details you need

to actually train a really amazing

frontier reasoning capability model is

still not like widely diffused. So, I my

my things my my my hypothesis is that

um, whatever is extremely high stakes

will still not be widely diffused. It

it's it it'll at least there'll be

enough structures in place to keep it

secret.

>> Forever.

>> Not forever, but for a while.

>> For a while.

>> Yeah.

>> That's the thing.

>> Long term. Sure. Like things do get out

and people understand.

>> It feels like long term is what I'm

looking at. Like look, when we're

looking at history, we're talking in

these like when we're looking at all

these different temples and all these

different things, we're talking about

thousands and thousands of years

>> and thousands of year time span in

between each individual one.

>> With our world, we're talking about

massive change in 200 years. Like this

country is 250 years old. Think about

how kooky that is.

>> Yeah.

>> That is a blink of an eye in history.

>> But do we do we understand everything

that happened in the United States?

>> No.

>> Exactly. So there are still some details

that are

>> sure

>> hidden from us like we we don't fully

understand everything right

>> for now.

>> Yeah.

>> But my question is as time goes on 250

years from now is it even possible to

keep any secrets from anybody

>> and and is that a good thing? It might

be a good thing. It sounds horrible to

people because they're like, "Oh my god,

what about privacy?"

>> Right. But also what about lies?

>> Yeah.

>> No more lies. Like everyone's going to

know what you're thinking. Everyone's

going to know everything people do all

the time.

>> Yeah. I mean, if you're a true

surveillance state, obviously there are

no secrets,

>> right?

>> Um except about the government itself.

>> That's the problem.

>> Yeah.

>> Does it bottleneck with the government

or does it get to a point where there

you can't even have government secrets?

Because as technology evolves and as

human civilization evolves, secrets will

be less and less not just necessary but

secrets. Secrets will be problematic

because they'll be an impediment to

knowledge. There'll be impediment to

understanding the true

>> the true scope of what the world is like

the true nature of all of our various

moving parts.

>> Yeah. May as long as the human quality

the intrinsic human quality of curiosity

and truth seeekingness which is you know

universal. that's existed ever since we

known human beings. If that continues

and that continues to be the case, then

people will have enough incentives to

figure out the truth.

>> Yeah.

>> And and they if something is actually

hard to get to, it only motivates you

more to actually go and find it.

>> For sure. But so my question is where

does this all go? you know, and you

obviously work in AI and when you think

about AI and when you think about just

technology in general and you

extrapolate, you just take it from here

and you just plotted out like what is a

possible scenario of 250 years from now?

Like what does it even look like? What

does the United States look like at 500

years old?

>> It's very hard to know. I I I'll be very

honest. I I I think it's very hard to

know even 5 years from now how it's

going to look like.

>> That's crazy.

>> Yeah. Five years ago was like

>> five years ago whoever is at the top

most in AI I'm I don't even consider

myself like that but whoever is at the

most frontier level of decision-m in AI

5 years ago I don't think they predicted

the exact state we are in today nobody

did if they did they would have already

procured all the compute and like you

know manufactured all the chips bought

out all the fabs they would have done

all that right just this counterfactual

everyone's like bottleneck by not having

enough comput and like we have we don't

have enough chips, we don't have enough

power. These are all the problems that

if you invite anybody in AI and ask what

is the bottleneck in AI today and

everybody would say power. I think

Jensen was here and he said the same

thing, right?

>> Yeah.

>> But okay, like if you predicted this

exact state 5 years before,

wouldn't you have secured enough power

and started building more power plants

yourself and start getting permits and

like started like planning out capacity?

No. Nobody did that.

>> No. Everything is reactive to the demand

that we're having today. So,

>> and that's just 5 years.

>> Yeah, that's just 5 years. So, when you