All right, chat. Today we're going to

talk about how to have a fluid

conversation. So, I don't know if yall

have ever been in this scenario where

you're sitting there, you're talking to

someone, and everything is really easy.

You're enjoying yourself, conversation

is free flowing, and then someone else

shows up and either this person is a

stranger or I feel intimidated by them

or they're a cute girl. And then I want

to continue having a free flowing fun

conversation where I'm laughing and I'm

being my best self. But instead what I

do is lock up completely. And in a day

and age where we have a loneliness

crisis, we have a dating and mating

crisis, I think understanding very

simple but crucial elements of human

interaction has become incredibly

important. So we're going to start by

understanding the science behind it

because once we understand what goes on

in your brain, in your nervous system,

then we will have a road map for how to

fix it. So the first thing is that when

we are having a normal conversation, we

are in a relaxed state which means that

our parasympathetic nervous system which

is the part of the mode of our nervous

system that involves rest, relaxation

and digestion is is active. Okay? So

what that means is if we sort of think

about a relaxed conversation, I'm not

stressed out. I'm not trying to win

anything. It's not a competition. I'm

not on trial. When I'm relaxed, words

flow very very very freely. Right? And

that's why if we have people who have

social anxiety and they have a little

bit of liquid courage or they use a

little bit of marijuana, people who are

drunk and or high will talk a lot

because their nervous system is in a

relaxed state. So when someone comes

into the picture, we were relaxed, but

then something happens. something

there's a shift in our nervous system to

where we are no longer in a relaxed

state and that is a switch from the

parasympathetic nervous system to the

sympathetic nervous system. Now the

sympathetic nervous system is governs

things like fight, flight and freeze and

this is usually the response that we see

in a lot of people who feel frozen in

social interactions. So let's understand

what's going on in the brain. The first

thing that happens is when someone

enters and is new to the conversation,

we sort of don't know if we're safe

around them. So, this can be a

combination of a couple of things. The

first is I see this problem a lot in

people who had difficult social

interactions when they were growing up.

So, I got bullied a lot. If you've been

bullied, maybe this happens to you. But

basically, there's a dividing point at

some point in your development. Okay?

There's like this like fork in the road

in your development where some human

beings are taught that the average

person is like safe and friendly and

some human beings are taught that the

average person could be a threat. And

it's not that the majority of people

that you encounter are a threat. But

this is what's really scary about human

psychology is, you know, even if there's

like a 10% chance that this person is

going to make fun of you or be mean to

you, that is something that your brain

is going to prioritize. So early on what

I what I see in my patients is that

early on a lot of them who struggle with

this problem were basically taught in

the first 15 years of their life that if

a new person shows up we have to treat

them as a threat until proven otherwise

and that's why their nervous system acts

in a particular way. This is an

interaction that may not end well. So

let's be on our guard. So first thing

that happens is sympathetic nervous

system turns on. We enter our fight,

fight, flight, freeze response because

of our past experience with people. When

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right for you. Second thing that happens

is, or maybe related to this actually

happens first technically, is our

amygdala, which is this little part of

our brain kind of seated back here. It's

it's a very primitive structure that

involves our it's our survival center of

the brain involves threat detection,

fear and anxiety generation. So this

part of the brain turns on. So we have

these benign perceptual stimuli like a

stranger shows up, right? So my eyes see

that, my ears hear that and then those

signals from my eyes and ears based on

my past history with humans travel and

turn on the amygdala. And this is where

things get interesting. So we feel

afraid, we feel fearful, our heart rate

starts to go up, we are no longer

relaxed. And then comes the really

interesting thing. You actually try to

stop that. So then what happens is our

frontal loes activate. You realize, oh

my god, it's happening to me again. I'm

stressed out. This is just a regular

conversation. Why can't I just be

natural and effortless and smooth? Why

can't I do that? So your frontal loes,

which which are the parts of your brain

that control all the other parts of the

brain, kick in. And then you have an

internal war. Okay, holo, relax. Be

charming. Be charming. You're talking to

yourself now. So you are now

introsceptive and introspective. You are

engaging with yourself. You have a

natural impulse and you are fighting

against that impulse. And that is the

the moment that you really struggle and

that's the moment that you really get

screwed. Because if we look at healthy

social interaction, it is about fluidity

between me and the other person. Right?

So, if I'm having a conversation, my

wife does this thing that I find

incredibly annoying. I love her. She's

amazing. But sometimes when I'm on a

call with someone, I'll be talking to

someone and I'll be blah blah blah. I'll

say my thing and then the moment I stop

talking, right, the person on the other

side of the phone stops talking, which

is exactly when my wife starts telling

me what to tell them. So, the moment

that I stop talking, I'm trying to have

a fluid conversation on the phone and my

wife is trying to have interject with me

and hey, make sure you tell them that

this and make sure you run. She's not

saying that while I'm talking. She's

saying that when I'm done talking, which

is exactly when the other person starts

talking that it's impossible to hear

what they're saying and I can't hear

what she's saying and ah I'm traumatized

by it and I'm sharing that with you all.

Now the point is conversation is fluid,

right? So conversation is about I'm

going to send a signal, you're going to

send me back a signal and this empathic

circuit of are are you putting down what

I'm picking up? Are you buying what I'm

selling? Are we vibing? Is this empathic

circuit intact? So this is about me and

the other person. Okay. The problem is

that once our frontal loes activate, we

lose that connection with the other

person because now I am engaging with

myself. Now I'm stuck in my own head and

this is gged out. So there's a really

fascinating medical example of when this

frontal lobe circuit shuts off, right?

So if I'm saying that, okay, when the

frontal loes turn on and they start

engaging, wrestling with your amydala,

that's when you are no longer able to

speak freely. So there's a really cool

medical example of this because if

someone has something called an anterior

cerebellar artery stroke, the anterior

cerebral artery is the the arteries that

supply the front of our brain. And when

someone has a stroke to the front parts

of their brain and their frontal loes

are no longer functioning properly, they

do something called confabulate, which

means that they are able to speak freely

regardless of what the hell is going on.

They are just they are smooth

[ __ ] Okay? So, we're going to

show you all a great example of this

called string sign.

>> They had a magic shop downtown.

>> Take this one. Oh, I really like that

one. Go get it.

>> What do you like about that one?

>> So, here's what we see in String Sign.

So, this is a doctor who's pulling out

nothing and they like they they go like

this and they're like, "Look, I have a

string here from a magic shop." And then

this person grabs the fake string and

then you can start asking them questions

about it and they're like, "Hey, you

know, what do you like about the

string?" And the guy's like, "Oh, yeah,

the string is really nice." And there's

no real string. And the reason that

someone is able to talk is because the

frontal loes are what impede us from

talking freely. And so when we damage

the frontal loes, then we are able to

freely talk irrespective of whether it

makes any [ __ ] sense. And in

confabulation, basically what you get is

patients that will make things up, but

they will just continually talk. Okay?

So we don't want to damage our frontal

loes. We don't want an anterior cerebral

artery stroke. But what we want to do is

train ourselves to turn off that

mechanism so that we can speak freely.

So there are three things that we can

really focus on. Remember there's the

autonomic nervous system which is

parasympathetic sympathetic nervous

system. That's something we need to shut

down. So how do we shut that down? This

is where a deep exhalation is or a slow

exhalation is the fastest way simplest

way in a conversation that you can shut

down your uh sympathetic nervous system.

When our sympathetic nervous system is

active, we hyperventilate. Deep shallow

I mean sorry deep rapid inhalations.

Right?

So instead and then what you'll notice

is there's a rapid exhalation.

Right? That's when we're

hyperventilating. I can feel a little

bit woozy. You can do that with me for a

second and you'll see how it feels. So

the really interesting thing if you just

do that rapid hyperventilation like I

just did, you'll start to notice a

change in your brain. So that's what's

so cool about breathing in in inhalation

and exhalation. They are very very rapid

ways to alter our nervous system

activity. Okay. So what we want to do is

slow exhalation. This is also you can do

on the DL where you're not like

interfering with a conversation. So deep

breath in.

You want to do that three times with

slow exhalations. You can do it right

now and you'll notice a physiologic

calming. The second thing that we can do

is alter our threat perception. So

remember that the reason that the

amygdala hyperactivates is because we've

been trained to treat this person like a

threat. Okay? So there are two things

that we can do here that are really

interesting. So my favorite example of

this, so I don't have cats. I'm allergic

to cats, but recently I've gone down the

rabbit hole of like rehabbing cats. And

I don't know if y'all have seen these

videos, but basically people will like

adopt cats and then there's this whole

complicated social process of

introducing cats to each other so that

they don't fight and they they start to

get along. And basically if you take two

strange cats and you stick them

together, often times what'll happen is

they'll be like they'll be hissing at

each other, swiping at each other. So

what's going on with these cats? These

cats are their their threat perception

has been activated, right? because they

lived out in the wild where cats were

dangerous. So now that they're meeting a

new cat at home, all of their danger

signals activate. And it's like really

heartwarming and oddly addictive to

watch the process of rehabilitating cats

to where they're hissing at each other

at the beginning and then we start to

like work with them and then they're

like cuddling at the end. And I think

it's like crazy that we live in a world

where we have sophisticated mechanisms

for socializing cats. Meanwhile, the

[ __ ] human beings who are doing the

socializing have this problem when

socializing with other humans. Like, we

have social rehab for cats, but we do

not have social rehab for humans.

Instead, we have this. The cool thing is

that the same principles that work for

cats because cats have amygdala, too.

They have, I guess, frontal loes, but

their frontal loes are not remember,

we're talking about the amydala right

now. So we can actually use the same

principles and this is also what we call

exposure therapy but basically this is

how this works. The way to extinguish

your threat response with a stranger is

to have a lot of benign interactions

with strangers. So remember the reason

that your amydala activates is because

when you were growing up strangers were

dangerous. Stranger danger. So basically

what we want to do is have repeated

multiple benign interactions with

strangers that make us feel a little bit

stressed. But the more of those we have

that that response in the amigdala will

naturally extinguish. And this is where

things like I think Dale Carnegie's How

to Win Friends and Influence People is a

book that you know people meme about a

lot but it's a really great book. And I

think the hidden magic in How to Win

Friends and Influence People is not any

of the techniques. The hidden magic is

something that Dale Carnegie weaves in

and tricks you into doing which is

exposing yourself to repeated social

interactions. That's the most important

thing, right? So he says in chapter 4, I

think like smile. So I think that's a

great idea. So this is really simple.

What we're going to start doing is

having conversations with strangers. Now

we live in a world where you have to be

really careful about this because people

feel like threatened and things like

that, especially if you're a dude. So,

the way that I would recommend y'all do

this, this is how I did it, is I would

pick people that are not in your mating

realm remotely at all and start to have

interactions with strangers. So, in my

case, I started chitchatting a lot with

old people, talking with people in the

elevator. You know, if I see a dude

walking by or I'm in an elevator with a

dude and they have like a shirt that I

like or something like that, arguably

this is hitting on them. I don't really

think so, but you know, I'll be like,

"Hey, that's an awesome shirt. Like,

you're really rocking that, bro." So,

starting to have small and I know that's

terrifying for you all, right? So when a

stranger is like, "Oh my god," like

interacts with you. Oh my god, it's so

terrifying. But y'all should really do

that, right? So start to interact with

people, start to have small

conversations with people. And the more

that we do that, we will extinguish this

amygdala response. The next thing that

we can do is actually to engage

curiosity. So this is where if we get

stuck in our own heads and we are sort

of assessing their threat and this is

sort of what it's like, right? So when

when someone comes in and you start to

freeze up, you are like scanning them.

You are like your threat systems are

activated, which means you're not you're

not like engaging with them. You are

assessing them. You are sizing them up.

Your your your brain and your body is

paying attention to all their body

language, what they're saying. And so

you're kind of like zoomed into them,

and there's no longer this like empathic

back and back and forth, right? either

you're too stuck in your head or you are

fully zoomed in on them, but there isn't

an even flow between the two. And one

really great way to manage that is

actually curiosity. So, if we sort of

think about, you know, let's say I'm

like um I'm walking down I'm walking

down a wilderness path and I and there's

a really scary looking stick and then

immediately I feel threatened and I'm

scared and then once the threat goes

away then I'm like, "Oh, that's a cool

looking stick." Like, "Oh my god, like

look at that stick. That stick is so

cool." So curiosity is going to engage

our parasympathetic nervous system. So

try to get interested in the person like

you know who is this person where do

they come from what brings them over

here and this is where we think about

those questions as small talk but if you

internally reframe to this is sort of

the frame that I have when I I meet

people now and this is something that's

been cultivated you know I think like

here's a human being this human being is

like completely unique they have a

unique set of genetics unique set of of

history and and experiences and like I

have an opportunity to spend some

questionable amount of time with this

person and I will probably never see

this person again. So, I have five

minutes to hang out with this unique

human being and then for the rest of my

life I'll never see them again. So, let

me try to make the most of it. Let's try

to understand who this person is, what

they're up to, if there's something I

need from them, if I need a food

recommendation or I'm new to the city or

if they're reading books and I'm looking

for a book like let's learn about this

person, right? So, you want to open up

that sort of curiosity element. I also

think when I'm working with my patients

with social anxiety, we do zero in on

this idea of like why does it matter

what this person thinks, right? Because

chances are you're never going to see

them again. And so this is where like

I've become a little bit more

comfortable with people like disliking

me and me potentially screwing up and

like that's what you have to do to make

YouTube videos on the internet, right?

It's okay for people to not like you.

And just because this person doesn't

like you, your mind may torture you when

you go to bed at night, but at the end

of the day, in the grand scheme of

things, there's not really too much to

that. And so the goal is just to be

there with them. And this is the key

thing to understand. When our frontal

loes are active, we're doing a lot of

analysis and assessment or we are

struggling with ourselves. So in order

to shut off those frontal loes, we need

to step away from those things, right?

So if you're feeling anxious, take a

deep breath, you know, slow exhalation.

Okay, I'm anxious in this moment. That

leaning into that feeling will shut off

the frontal loes in some way. other

parts of the frontal loes will get

activated but those are the those are

the ones we want active and then the

last thing is once we make this sort of

cognitive reframe of okay like this is

just an opportunity to meet this person

and I'm I've done a lot of practice

towards this right so my my

extinguishing response from the amydala

is starting to kick in this is just an

opportunity to meet this person that

frame shift that cognitive frame shift

is what will change the activity of your

frontal loes because now your frontal

loes are no longer assessing threat

they're just viewing this as as an

opportunity and then you will be

relaxed. The parasympathetic nervous

system will activate and the

conversation will start to flow.