There's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim

and today he addresses some of them for

good.

My dad, he was out of my life from

fairly young. He was arrested. He was in

prison for a while. He was definitely

sociopathic. I wonder what man I would

be if he had stuck around. Oh, I've lost

count the amount of times I've been

called a cheater. Me and Tanya broke up

just over 2 years ago. Me and Sarah got

together as far as the world is

concerned a few months later, but

obviously that wasn't it because the

world only found out me and Tanya broke

up when we decided to tell them. cuz I

lost my [ __ ] the other day on on social

media. So, I can take hate. I've got a

thick skin. It doesn't it bounces

straight off. I don't care. This is my

job. It's not a personal reflection on

me. But when it comes to somebody

calling my pregnant fiance the names

they called her and saying that my baby

should be miscarried, that's where I

draw the line. [music]

Some people come on this podcast and

they're cy. Sometimes they even try and

bend the truth, protect their ego. Dare

I say it, sometimes they even lie. Not

my next guest. Completely, utterly,

brutally honest, raw, unfiltered, and

vulnerable. He's a British celebrity

with six or seven or 8 million

followers. But you don't know Jim. You

don't know Jim Chapman. Almost nobody

does. Today, we're talking about

success, the chronic curse of

overthinking. We're talking about love,

breakups, rumors, both of the

similarities in our mindsets. We're

talking about how you need to be a

contradiction in various parts of your

life if you're going to be happy.

Something I didn't realize until today,

until this conversation. And we're

talking about child abuse. Child abuse

to an extent that most of us could and

should hopefully never be able to

imagine. We're talking about paralyzing

anxiety, social media, its upsides and

downsides, and what all of this life

stuff is fundamentally about.

Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumors

surrounding Jim. And today, he addresses

some of them for good. Without further

ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the

Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's

listening, but if you are, then please

keep this to yourself. [music]

Jim, I always think the most important

place to start when I have these

conversations is getting to know the

experiences

that made you who you are today because

for me that

creates the context for everything we're

about to discuss. And a lot of the time

people don't really know those things.

Um, so tell me about some of the

experiences when you were younger, when

you're in school, um, that you think

have contributed to the man you are

today.

Okay. Um, I guess, and God is instantly

going to sound like a so story and it

absolutely is not. This is a positive

thing. I guess the first thing that

springs to mind is my dad. So, uh, my

dad was he did some bad things like he

he abused my mom um, from even before I

was born. I got two older sisters who,

um, you know, dealt with it as well. I

don't think he ever turned a hand to

them, but he verbally was very I mean

even I remember that and I was super

young. I remember him being very very

hurtful and very unkind and just

bullying to to my sisters. Um I think he

always wanted boys so my brother and I

were kind of like I've got a twin so we

were like the the prodical children I

suppose. Um, it I didn't know this cuz

obviously I was born into it, but it's

not it wasn't until I got a little older

and I would have like sleepovers at

friends houses or I would just be in the

presence of other people and their

parents and I'd be like, "Wait, your

house isn't terrifying? That's that's uh

this is great." You know, and I think I

got as I got slightly older, I realized

that things weren't quite right. And it

was one day uh my brother and I were in

the room next door where we slept my my

parents. And we walked in and my dad was

like on top of her just beating the [ __ ]

out of her basically. And my brother and

I, we were only tiny, we must have been

like five or six, tried to pull him off,

but obviously he was huge, so just

pinged us away. And it was a wild night,

you know, the police came, took him

away, um, etc., etc., just kind of and

he I didn't know at the time, but he had

been beating my mom and abusing her for

years. [snorts] But of course, she was

trapped. Now, my mom is a saint, but

also she doesn't tolerate fools. She's

not I think the thing about domestic

abuse is a lot of people go, "Oh, just

get out of there. Just get out of

there." It's not It's not as simple as

that. She had her kids to think of. I

remember being in the car with my dad

and he would threaten to just crash the

car and kill us all. He drove like a

maniac. He was drunk quite a lot. My mom

couldn't just leave with four children

because he found us. We tried to leave

and he found us, you know. So I think um

that he's very much a cautionary tale

for me. Um he was out of my life from

fairly young but never fully out because

he you know was taken away by the

police. He was arrested. He was

imprisoned for a while but despite the

fact that we had like a court order that

he couldn't come near. He still came

near all the time. At one point he

kidnapped is a very strong word but at

one point he took me. Um it just kind of

came to the window and I was his son.

You know he was my dad. I worshiped him

and I still didn't fully understand. So

I remember going to the window and

saying, "Mom's calling the police. You

have to go." And he just sort of went,

"Okay." And just took me with him and

drove. We're in a bloody police chase.

Drove like super fast and the police had

to kind of, you know, stop and pull him

over. Um it was, you know, it's a it was

a very unsettling time for a child. But

because of that, he was removed and I

spent most of my childhood being brought

up by my mom and my big sisters. So I

wanted for nothing. Um, I was very well

loved, very well protected, super well

looked after. And I think actually I I

often wonder, and I was having this chat

with Sarah the other day because

obviously we've got a child on the way.

Uh, and I was thinking, I wonder what

man I would be if he had stuck around or

or if we couldn't get away from him or

whatever it would have been. Um, and you

know, whether he wanted to or not, he

taught me a lot of lessons. Um, but I

think mostly

cautionary lessons because my family are

bloody great. You know, there's uh got

two big sisters, I've got a mom, I've

got a twin brother, and I would choose

no one else on the planet to take those

roles. If I had the choice, they would

be the people I choose, 100%. Um, and he

missed out on that because he was

unwell, I would say. Um, he had MS and I

always remember him you being a victim

of it in a way. that my sister inherited

from it from him. And she's so

positive with it. Like she's not a

victim. She doesn't let it beat her. She

has times where she's tired. It gets on

top of her. She has a little sob. She

goes to bed. She recognizes the signs

though and she goes, "Right, okay. It's

getting on top of me. I need to rest for

a while." I remember my dad just being

like a victim of it and being like, "It

ruined my life. It did this." He used to

play football, from what I understand, a

fairly highish level. like kind of he

played for West Ham, not in the A team,

but something and he was like, "Oh, the

MS ruined it for me." Which I'm sure it

did. You know, there's no question with

that. But life deals you cards and you

react, you behave in a way that you that

you see fit. Um, and he

let the cards life dealt him ruin

everything, I think. And I think because

of that, he was angry. Um, I also I

mean, and I I don't say this lightly,

but I think he was definitely

sociopathic. He manipulated everybody

and a lot a lot of it my mom didn't even

know about until we were clear from him

and then people start asking her for

money because, you know, he owed it to

them. I mean, he he went to prison for

like armed robbery or something like he

was just, you know, he did really bad

things. Um, so I think for me that's

kind of the first thing my mind goes to

when someone asks me about kind of um

childhood

um formulation of me. But I don't

necessarily think of it as a negative

thing cuz actually I think that because

he was removed from my life by my

protectors by my mom, my big sisters, I

had a wonderful childhood. you know, we

didn't have any when he was around there

was more money because I think he stole

a lot of money and because he he took

it, you know, there was two parents

earning, but also he he earned it by

sort of nefarious means. Suddenly, we

had no money. Um, and my nan had to like

buy the house that we lived in and we

stayed at my mom's best friends for like

a year or so because she took us in cuz

we couldn't afford anywhere else. But I

was safe and I was happy and I was like

my mom had more capacity to be a better

mom because she wasn't constantly

running for the hills, you know. So

actually I think that it's a really

positive thing um that happened because

imagine if he was still around. Imagine

if he was still my father figure now. At

33, I'd be a mess for one thing, I

think, but I'd also be I wonder if I'd

be a not a nice man. And actually, I

pride myself on being decent and kind.

Um, and he missed out on that.

I read a little bit about the story as I

was doing some research on your book and

things like that. And one of the the

most startling parts of all of this is

how much empathy, dare I say, you appear

to have for this man, which I think

people would find surprising. I think

you said I don't blame him for how

things happened.

Yeah, I don't I I I actually I I think

of myself as quite an empathetic person.

Um I rarely have arguments with people.

Um I do with Sarah obviously because we

live under the same roof. Um and like we

have disagreements, but

your fiance?

Yes, my fiance. Yes. Um although not at

the moment because she's pregnant, so

[laughter] she can do no wrong. Um, but

I I do have uh I tend not to have like

extra personal drama because I I do

consider how it would be from someone

else's perspective and I appreciate

that. Yes, okay, I could have my say

because I feel slighted about a thing

and I could say, well, you did this and

it made me feel that, but that's my

feelings on an action that they um did

and they will have equal and opposite

feelings on the way I behaved because of

their actions. Nobody I don't I believe

nobody will go out of their way just to

be a prick. You know, they've always got

their thoughts and feelings and their

motivations. And I don't think anyone's

doing it like, "Oh, that will piss Jim

off. I'll do that." You know what I

mean? That they're living their life. We

all live in our bubble.

My uh my therapist calls it the

lifeboat. We all live in our lifeboat,

right?

Um but we're all on the same ocean. So

depending on how good your lifeboat is,

you will weather the storm or not,

right? There's a storm on the ocean.

We're all in it. Especially at the

moment, there's a pandemic, right? We're

all in the pandemic together. But it

depends on the boat you're sailing on.

Um, and there are times when boats kind

of bump into each other or someone's in

a dinghy and you need to sort of tie

them to yours for a while and help them

get through things or whatever. Um, but

I really don't feel like anybody is

purposely

um an ass. It might be manipulative.

They might see a way that they can

behave that will um better them in in a

situation where they go, "Okay, I'll

come off better with that." And it might

it might do him no favors, but you know,

they're not doing it for that reason.

They're doing it for that reason.

They're doing it because they want to um

have a better situation for them, not

just to piss me off. So, I tend not to

have arguments. I will say to someone,

"That's not cool. Can you see that from

my perspective?" Um,

and do you and and do you think so when

you think about your the situation with

your dad, it seems like from that you

you avoid attributing blame to him and

then so I'm I'm questioning myself. I'm

saying is that because you understand

the reasons why he was the way he is or

um

you have empathy for

I have Yeah, I just I think I just have

empathy for for people. I don't I think

there's definitely blame. I think we all

we all have to own our own actions. Um,

but I think there are also

there are reasons behind actions. I

don't think it's ever as simple as he

hit my mom just because he's aggressive.

I think you have to dig deeper. Like my

my my granddad was so his dad not okay.

I remember being I remember going to his

house and he'd be like watching

not porn but like softcore in front of

us, you know, as just he was just I

don't I don't know if he was just a bit

like

um scenile at that point or or or what,

but you know, it's not all right to do

that with young kids around. Um

and you see these generational cycles,

right?

100%. Yeah. And I'm very proud and very

happy to have broken that cycle because,

you know, I don't I don't know what his

dad was like, but my granddad taught my

dad his behavior. Not all of it because

I actually I actually do think there was

um I actually do believe my dad had

sociopathic tendencies which isn't

necessarily a taught thing. It's more

like a brain function thing, you know.

Um but I think there was definitely

something there and it didn't help

having his dad

teach instill in him certain beliefs and

patterns or whatever.

Quick one. Starting from the minute the

lockdown is lifted, we're going to start

bringing in some of our subscribers to

watch how this podcast is produced

behind the scenes means you get to meet

the guests, meet myself, and see how we

put all of this together. If you want

that to be you, all you've got to do hit

the subscribe button. My mom is a very

loud person, and that's a huge

[clears throat] understatement. Like,

loves to scream in people's faces, very

short temper. My dad is a certain way.

And as I've got older and older, I've

got more conscious that at times I feel

like myself becoming a little bit like

them in certain moments.

And it scares me sometimes. I think

and I think well genetically of course

I'm half of each of them. So um have you

ever has it ever concerned you in the

same way that you might have picked up

some of the unpleasant traits of either

of your parents?

Um has crossed your mind.

I'm turning into my mom for sure. My mom

my mom has unpleasant traits only in as

far as she for example when I moved

house wouldn't stop going on about

parking like that sort of thing. Oh you

better get parking. My mom I live in

London you don't get off streetet

parking. I've got a parking permit. I

park around the corner. That's my life.

But she's like oh you need to get a

driveway. I'm like no I don't. Like

that's the sort of thing she won't let

it drop. She's got a fact in her mind

about um Trump for example and she goes

oh Trump's bad. He did this thing. I'm

like yeah but what about all the other

things he did? you know, so she's um

that's her kind of annoying trait. And

if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine

with that. Um as far as my dad, I don't

think I mean, yeah, like I say, he's

half me or I'm half him, I suppose. Um

but I think that the thing is my my

degree is in psychology, right? So I

know a little bit about it and I'm

always quite conscious. Like I know for

example, there are certain genes that

will only get triggered under certain

environments. So yes, all right, I might

well have his gene for something, but if

I don't if I'm not in a environment

where it's had to uh where it would have

expressed itself, then I might never.

And I also think that there is an

element of um I guess consciousness that

can override that.

Self awareness. Yeah. Self awareness

and education because therapy,

psychology,

totally. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very um I work

on and I I hate this I hate saying this

because it sounds like really wanky, but

I work on bettering myself, you know? I

I I know my flaws. I work too much. Like

I forget to bring my head up and I

neglect Sarah sometimes because I'm too

busy typing away or I'm too busy in my

own little world stressing about

whatever I'm stressing about, which

doesn't need to happen, but it does and

I I'm aware of that and that's the sort

of thing I work on. But I've never been

aggressive, never been violent. Um I

weirdly I do boxing quite a lot but it's

not about the violence of it. It's about

the chess of it. Like I really like the

it's an intellectual sport. You know,

you have to be smart. You have to think

about where you're positioning all the

time. Um and I've never this is not I

don't know if this is not in my nature,

but it's something that I won't

entertain. There are times where I get

driven bonkers by Sarah or by people and

I just think, "Oh my god, I could just

like nut you right now." Obviously, I'm

never going to because it's just every

fiber of my being is would not allow me

because I've seen the impact. I've seen

I'm 6' three. I could do some real

damage. Um, but I just never would. So,

I I I do get loud sometimes if I'm, you

know, if we're having an argument, I

will kind of just talk louder. And

I think with me and Sarah in particular,

it's tricky because we're both quite

smart. And [laughter] so when it comes

to an argument, we're just trying to

outsmart each other the whole time,

which makes it really frustrating. We're

both going, "No, you're wrong because of

this." [laughter]

And both of you are right.

Yeah. And actually, yeah, there's truth

in both. Um, for sure.

Um, but it's really hard to see that

when you've got your blood up, you know

what I mean? But I totally think that

there's no there's

I've got I like to think I've got the

best bits of my mom. Um, and if there is

any kindness in my dad and and I

remember moments. I don't I don't have

loads of memories of of him.

90% of them are negative and scary. But

there are moments I remember him sitting

down with me and reading there was a

magazine, I forget what it was called,

but he used to get like um little bit of

a figure every time and he'd make the

figure and it was like something to do

with bugs and we made a big spider.

12 quid per magazine

basically. Yeah. Really, really

overpriced. But I remember him um he

would read it with me from cover to

cover and we'd put the bug together.

Now, there would end up being six issues

um that we didn't get done and we'd have

to do them in one go because he wasn't

around because he was gone doing

whatever he was doing and um he would

let me down a lot. But I remember doing

them and I remember loving that time

with him. Um

what kind of dad do you want to become?

Because you've got a kid on the way now.

Congrats again.

Yeah. [laughter] Thanks. Um, it's really

hard to say this because I know that

every first time prospective parent

goes, "Oh, I'm going to be the best

dad." And actually, you know, invariably

we'll all [ __ ] up at some point, right?

It's going to happen. Um, I just I think

for me if I can have a child and if I

can instill in them the waste of time in

anxiety like that just the the just the

sheer

nonsense of it. Like I I really want

them to understand that worrying does

nothing. You know, yes, all right, we

can be stressed about things. There are

times when life is hard and things

there's challenges to overcome, but you

overcome those challenges when they

present themselves. There's no My

therapist once said to me, when you

worry, you rob yourself twice, right?

Because the first time around, you're

overwhelmingly thinking about nothing

but a potential problem which may never

rear its head. If it doesn't rear its

head, then you've wasted time worrying

about it. If it does rear its head, then

you're forced into action because you

can't stay in that situation. So why

stress about something that's never

going to happen or you know something

that you will solve if it does happen?

So I really want my child to understand

just be content I think um and to know

that both me and Sarah and all of our

families so my my siblings my mom

Sarah's siblings and her parents will

always be there to help. You know I

think that if I can do that then I'll

have done a good job. Um I want to be

patient. It's in my nature. I'm a very

patient person. Um, but I also know that

I'll be tested. So, when I do snap, I

snap quite quite loudly.

So, I want to be calm. I want to be

patient. I want to be soft and

considerate. Um, and again, empathetic

because

the thing about kids is I I really

appreciate is they get frustrated

because they're obviously told what to

do by their parents. They can't

necessarily verbalize or especially

don't have the communication ability to

say, "No, that's not what I want." You

know, they have to appreciate that

obviously what I want overrules it for

the most part because safety or

whatever.

Sure.

But I think they I also need to

appreciate that they'll be frustrated

because they can't communicate

effectively why they feel pissed off

because I've said no. Um, and that will

often come out in like tantrums or

whatever. So,

and they won't understand daddy's world

and why when they're trying to get your

attention, they don't know you're on a

Zoom call pitching something, for

example. They're just like, "Daddy won't

play with me." You know? So,

totally.

That's interesting.

I also want to make sure I'm around

enough. My job totally allows that.

Like, I have time. I can work as little

or as much as I want. That's that's the

beauty of my job. Obviously, I work

less. I earn less. But, you know, I can

make those sacrifices. I don't at the

moment. That's my problem. I work

constantly because I like what I do and

because of the constant my it's anxiety.

I'm constantly worried about if I take

my foot off the gas, what happens next?

I find that fascinating. But I picked up

on that before we started recording

because every time we talked about your

screenplays or other things you're

working on, you would then end the

sentence with

but I might lose it all.

Right.

And I I don't resonate like that. I

found that interesting because it's not

how I end my sentences. But it was it

was like you would tell me something and

then you would also then almost caveat

it at the end with there is a chance I

might not I might not get it or I might

lose it all.

Yeah.

And I I I find it particular because I

don't think in that way.

So where does that come from in you?

This

my mom

right

uh 100%. Again she's wonderful. She has

like a like an ethos. It's not a saying

but it's an ethos which is like a day

doing nothing is a day wasted. Um she

can't relax. I can't relax as a

consequence. Um, if I'm sitting there

just chilling, even if I'm watching a

film, which for me I consider as

research because I write films, right?

If I'm watching something, I'm like,

"Oh, okay. I see what they're doing

there." And it's like, I don't watch

them passively. I'm constantly thinking

about them.

Um, but even if I'm sitting there

watching a film, I'm like, "Oh, I

shouldn't be doing it." 9:00 p.m.,

right? It's it's the evening and I'm

supposed to be relaxing and I'm sitting

there going, "I shouldn't be doing this.

I shouldn't be doing this." That's my

biggest

What's your brain saying in that moment?

It's telling me off. It's it's going,

"Dude, you need to be you can't just be

sitting here watching. You need to be

doing you need working and making what

what if this all goes wrong? How are you

going to earn the money? How are you

going to afford to look after your child

and pay the mortgage and you know all

that stuff?" Um,

a lot of people will resonate with that

for sure. Um,

and you've addressed it in therapy.

Yeah.

What have you learned?

I learned that I do it. [laughter]

Okay.

Which a lot of people don't even know,

right? That self-awareness of knowing

that it's a problem you have.

Mhm. And and it's taken me I've been

seeing my therapist for Christ six,

seven years, something like that.

How often?

Uh it varies. If I'm going through a

moment, then more often. At the moment,

like once every six weeks because I'm

pretty chill.

Um

but it's taken her most of our time

together just to crack that. And she

sort of said, you know,

with me it's my biggest um strength and

also my biggest flaw. It just depends on

where it is on the dial. Like if I've

got that at seven, it's great because

I'm motivated and I'm enjoying my work

and I'm loving it and I'm sitting there

going, "God, I'm really good at this."

You know, and I'm typing away or doing

whatever I'm doing.

If it's an eight or a nine, it's

torture.

Paralyzed or

Yeah. often paralyzed. Often paralyzed,

ironically, into doing nothing because

I'm so busy stressing about

getting it done. I don't [clears throat]

get it done because I've got no brain

space because it's too busy whizzing

around in my head going, "Get it done.

Get it done. get it done.

Um, so there's a point where it's sort

of really um,

ironically kind of just it's the

antithesis of what it's designed for.

And I think I I think I get a lot of

that from my dad because I remember

being young

knowing that it was easier to be busy

and keep myself separate. So I used to

draw. I'd be really arty. Um, and that's

one Yeah. I sit out of harm's way and I

So you would draw straw in the corner

because you felt safe if he if you were

busy and he was

I wasn't if I wasn't in his in his ey

line. I couldn't be chastised or it was

safer. Think of my dad, he was very

unpredictable. So which is terrifying

for a kid, right? Because you don't know

if you're going to get love or you're

going to get punishment for the same

action. Um so I would spend most of my

time just kind of getting on with stuff.

And because of that, I've developed a

real independence, um, a real

creativity. But if it's turned up too

high, it's crippling. Whereas, if it's

at a good number, um, then it's what's

got me to where I am. I I 100% would not

be here without that because I just

wouldn't work as hard as I do. Um, but I

don't need to work as hard as I do. You

know, human beings have a couple of

things they need to do. They need to

sleep. They need to eat. They have the

option of procreating. [laughter]

That's kind of it, right? What else is

there? The rest of it is just made up,

right? [laughter] The rest of it is just

made up [ __ ] that we've given ourselves

to do.

Society has told us that in order to be

a complete person, we need to climb,

right? Totally. And it's bloody

stressful. It's it's it's debilitating

sometimes. So, when I have that turned

up too high, I end up doing nothing. But

I worry myself. And Sarah's like, "Where

have you gone?" Like, I just disappear.

And I don't talk. I don't like I haven't

been like this for a while because I'm

pretty good at recognizing the signs and

I know to take my foot off the gas a bit

because of, you know, all the therapy

I've had.

Yeah, it's it's the bloody worst.

What has helped you?

Um, therapy. Yeah, it's absolutely that

being aware of it. There's there's a

point I always say this because I've

actually couple of my best mates have I

don't know a guy that's my age that

doesn't need it by the way. Um,

[laughter] so a couple of my best mates

I've put them in touch with therapists

or sort of said something, you know, I

think you should see someone. And

actually, we're really open and honest

with each other. We're constantly

looking out. If one of us is quiet on

the group chat, we'll go, dude, are you

all right? You've been a bit quiet. Um I

said to him at the time I was like

there's a really tough point with

therapy where you start seeing someone

and at first you're really resistant.

She's like no I'm fine. What are you

talking about? But when they point

things out to you like [ __ ] I'm not

fine.

But you're aware of doing it but you

have no tools in place of how to stop

doing it or how to at least challenge

it. So you're just punishing yourself

for doing it. Like I remember going

through that stage for a long time going

I hate that I'm failing. I hate that I'm

still stressing out about [snorts] being

like working constantly or not working

constantly or whatever it is. I hate

that I'm doing it to myself, but I can't

stop. And you feel a bit like a junkie,

you know, in a way that you're like,

you know, it's wrong. You know, you

shouldn't be doing it, but you can't you

can't not. Um, and actually it takes a

while to learn the techniques. You know,

mine is as simple as it's it's it's

painful that I have to go, right, stop.

Just don't do it. Take step away from

your laptop. step away from your camera,

do what whatever it is you're doing.

Have five minutes. If you feel better

after 5 minutes, go back to it. If not,

then take the rest of the day off. Um,

and that's what I have to do. I I need

to be Sarah needs to keep me in check

quite a lot because if I sometimes it

sneaks up on me and I'm kind of like at

stage four before I even realize it. I'm

like, [ __ ] I'm in too deep. Um, so

she's [clears throat] often like, dude,

come back. Um, and that's really

helpful. It's hard though because you

don't want to be told by someone that

you're not performing the way you

should. You know what I mean?

Especially someone that matters, right?

Right. Totally. Especially when it's

your already your weakness.

Um but you need to be like I actually

really like criticism. So it's good for

me. Like you know if I send someone some

work or something and they go, "Oh,

okay." As long as it's constructive, you

know, they go, "Okay, I see what you're

doing here. Don't like that." That

that's not great. I thrive on that. I'm

back in there and I'm, you know, so I

think having

other third parties be like, you're not

doing right right now. Um, and that's

something that I really want to be

totally aware of when it comes to my

child cuz I don't want to be an absent

father. I don't want to be a dad that's

always going, "No, no, no, no. I'm just

not my lap, so come back to me in 5

minutes." I I want to be able to,

obviously, I have to work. you know, we

all have a living, but I want to be able

to have my kid with me and be present,

you know, and not them think that

they're sort of auxiliary or like an

afterthought or just an addition. I want

them to know that they are the center of

my universe. You know,

I say this every week, but I'm going to

say it again. Um, it is a tremendous

pleasure to have a podcast sponsor that

a you've used for maybe 3 years. People

ask me as well, they say, "How many

huels do you drink a day?" The answer is

probably about two, sometimes two and a

half. Um, but a podcast sponsor that you

genuinely believe can help people change

their life for the better. Um, watching

the team at Hule argue with each other

and be so uncompromising about the

ingredients that go into this bottle or

the bags or the bars or the hot and

savory has only strengthened my

evangelism for this brand. Watching the

founder Julian and the CEO James insist

that only the best ingredients go in

here and be so scientifically precise

about what goes in this bottle and in

the bars and in the bags has only made

me love this more because I know they've

got my back and I wish all of you could

be in those boardrooms that I've been in

and watch them fight for your and my

health um via this product.

So, professionally,

we talked a little bit about your work

there. One of the things that uh that

you've said is you don't like being

called like an influencer, like a

YouTuber.

Uh I think it's really reductive.

Yeah.

Um and I think that actually if you look

at, you know, if you just weigh up the

quantity of work I do, it's only about

less than [clears throat] 50, I'd say.

Um unfortunately, I don't get paid for

the other stuff yet. [laughter]

That's how it starts,

you know. So yeah,

you get paid for YouTube at the start,

right?

Absolutely. Yeah, totally. Um but I do

lots of other stuff. I appreciate that I

communicate that other stuff online via

my social media. I just think that

influencer is for one thing it's an ugly

word because it implies that you are

um utilizing influence over someone

whereas actually I just share the stuff

I like. Even if it's an ad, even if it's

if it's um I'm working with a brand, I'm

not going to work with a brand that I

don't want to talk about. Right? So it's

I'm talking about things that I'm

actually enjoying or passionate about or

whatever it may be. And I don't see that

as exerting influence. I see that as

sharing

joy or even if it's just sharing good

tips or whatever it may be. I see that

as a as a very different thing. And I I

also have a thing and I've mentioned

this a few times as there was a void in

um social media where myself and my

contemporaries who all started around

the same time did it for fun, did it for

love, did it for adventure. We had no

idea it was going to go anywhere. And

when it started to, we were like, "Oh my

god." And genuinely I look back at it

and I was such nostalgia. I don't miss

it, but I love that I was part of it,

you know, cuz it was such a cool journey

to

moment in history as well.

Yeah, it totally absolutely was, you

know, and we sold out these venues and

we were, you know, we had screaming

fans. It felt like being in a small

version of One Direction, you know. Um,

it was wild and just so much fun.

Did you miss that?

No, I loved it at the time when I was in

my early 20ies. every young person and I

saw some of those clips of your meetups

in like parks and stuff and I've never

seen a line that long in my lifetime.

Yeah, it was wild.

But like like [laughter] a thousand

meters, I don't even know how many

meters that is of people four like four

deep in like this massive line just

screaming and crying at times.

It's really hard to put it into words. I

tried explaining it to Sarah when we

first met because obvious

Yeah, it's really hard and we if I get

stopped in the street now by someone

she's like what?

Yeah. But she's also like, "Oh, men

didn't scream or cry." Yeah, we don't

get it. They used to be. Um,

but my what my point was is that like

everyone thinks, especially young

people, especially young men, well, all

young people would love to be that guy.

And you're telling me you don't miss it.

No, I loved it at the time. Don't get me

wrong, it was great. But the novelty

soon wears off because it got to the

point where you couldn't I couldn't take

public transport. Like I couldn't walk

to the shops. um you know and it sounds

like I'm really exaggerating but

actually at the time it really was that

just I would even now if I'm walking

along the street and I see a group of

teenagers I'm like oh [ __ ]

here we go

it's not teenagers anymore they're all

in their 20ies but I'm so conditioned to

being aware of teenagers now that I'm

like oh my god oh my god they're going

to come for me and they're going to like

scream and cry and it's I don't

how is this played with your anxiety

though

that's not that's not what sets me off

so that's fine um I've always got time

for it if people stop and want to have a

conversation As long as I physically

have time for it, I'm not rushing. I'll

always stop and have a chat. You know,

I've got I'm I'm really gracious in that

I appreciate that without those people,

I wouldn't be in the position I'm in. I

don't feel like I owe them anything

because at the same time, I provided the

content they wanted to watch. But it's

definitely like almost like a

transaction, right? I wouldn't be there

without them. They wouldn't A lot of

them have said like when I had announced

that I was pregnant, Sarah was pregnant,

a lot of them sort of said, "Oh my god,

I can't believe it. You you like bought

me up." because a lot of these teenagers

watched my content and and my

contemporaries content. Um

like Shay Carl as well, don't they?

Right. Totally. Because because they

they they loved like watching us and and

we were

role models for them I suppose you know

and that was a really wonderful thing to

be part of.

And dare I say you were idyllic in a way

that it often with with the sh the

shaytards and shall his family

I didn't have a perfect family like

that. So there was it g it you felt like

you were part of that you know. Yeah, I

think that and also the friendships with

um with the others it was very identical

but it genuinely was that was our life

at the time. It was just pure fun and

like there was no stress. We were young

so we had no like um no

responsibilities, no mortgages, no no

like other things to worry about other

than just like going out there and

having a blast and we just got to

document that and share it.

You don't miss it?

No, I say I'm nostalgic. I'm really

happy I had was part of it. But I don't

miss it because I'm 33. I don't want

14-year-old girls pawning over me, you

know what I mean? Or or just kind of

like desperately trying. I remember one

time being on the tube and this young

girl just burst into tears and her dad

looked at me and thought I was like,

[laughter] you know, would you blame

him, you know? So I was like, I'm all

right. I'm on the internet, which didn't

help because just being [laughter] on

the internet. He's like, doing what? Um,

so yeah, I don't I don't miss it. Uh,

because it's actually really invasive

and like I say, I don't care about the

notoriety. It was really lovely to be

that person for some people um and to

have even then although there was big

numbers it was still fairly underground

and it hadn't really reached mainstream

it was just online right so although it

was lots of people it was of certain

sort of sector of society it wasn't

like older men it wasn't you know it was

just teenagers basically um and it was

yeah say it was a real blast but I don't

miss I feel like actually I grew out of

it fairly rapidly

The thing about it being teenagers is

that no one can obsess like teenagers.

So

they would be desperate for the photo,

the selfie, the um they scream and cry

and go ballistic and actually I'm I'm

really anticlimactic. [laughter]

I'm just I'm some dude. I'm really I'll

often just go I'm really sorry that it's

me.

Yeah.

Um so yeah, I'm very like I said, I'm

very grateful for it. Um I love that

I've got those memories and I love that

I've made those friends. Um, but yeah, I

don't miss it.

Who's Jim now then? If that's if that's

old Jim and that's your say your first

chapter, what is the what is your second

chapter?

I feel like I've had so many chapters

actually. I feel like I've I've evolved.

The beauty of my job, right, is I'm

allowed to do that. I'm allowed to

evolve. When it's forced, it can be

really ugly and I think that's how a lot

of people lose their following. Um,

partly it's it's entropy. You know,

people grow up and they move on. They do

other things, but

algorithms,

algorithms, all that. I think mostly

it's just people force it to try to get

traffic and views and actually my life

has just as it's changed I've grown up

with it and I've been I've accepted that

change like for example I'm really I'm

really hoping I turn into a silver fox.

I'm I'm looking forward to aging

gracefully. You know what I mean? Um and

I think that that's kind of my my my

role on social media. I'm not pretending

to talk to young people anymore. I'm not

pretending to be the cool guy and like,

you know, I'm I'm I appreciate that I'm

I'm getting older. My life's changed. My

interests have changed. My career has

changed. And I share that with people as

opposed to desperately trying to still

impress

a young an audience that aren't right

for me. I I speak to a lot of YouTubers

and we used to sign a couple and there

was this really interesting moment where

that first wave of YouTuber

because of algorithm changes. I think

predominantly algorithm changes. What

they were doing then just stopped

working. The views went down and I swear

to God I witnessed a form of depression

and existential crisis from these

YouTubers who suddenly were like what

the [ __ ] has happened? What do I do with

my life now? because their whole

identity from whether it was like 16

years old to 22 was doing this one

thing. They never really understood

work,

right?

And it's funny because I've never really

talked about this before, but one of the

YouTubers we signed, you'll know his

name, maybe 18 at the time. And we

remember calling him and offering him 20

grand just to show up to a place. And

he's like, "Nah."

Right?

I'm like, "Just show up to the He's

like, "Nah, just can't be bothered."

Like, and he had developed that sense of

like complacency about his career and

how you make money and how easy it is.

And then when [ __ ] changes, I'm saying

he can't make any money anymore. And and

he's spiraled down because I think life

taught him that money and life was super

easy. The algorithm changes and now he's

like [ __ ] And he has to go work at

Tesco.

That's something that I really can't

tolerate in this industry is when people

have that attitude like I'm where I am

um because I'm good to work with. as

much as the numbers and as much as

everything else, I've stayed the test of

time because I am honest and decent with

my audience and I respect my audience

and I don't take the piss and don't take

it for granted. But also, if I am

offered a job, I turn up on time. I say

my pleases and thank yous. Um, I get a

lot of repeat work because I'm good to

work with and I pride myself on that.

And I have no I have so little tolerance

for ego. Like all of us, if we're on set

shooting a thing, whether it's you,

whether you're the runner or the

director or you're me doing the bit to

camera or you're the guy going to get

coffee, we're all just want to do our

job and enjoy what we're doing and then

go home at the end of the day and say,

"Oh, that was nice." You know, we don't

there's no space for any of that. And I

think that we it's particularly bad in

this industry, right? more so than the

other because when it comes to musicians

or actors or whatever they are there's

so many people around them right who are

um looking after them and who are saying

no and who are advising them and also

they're not their own content Brad Pitt

doesn't play Brad Pitt he plays someone

else right someone like me my job is to

edit myself take my own photo make my

own caption reply to my own comments and

it's all like Jim Jim Jim Jim Jim it's

very easy to then think you're the

center of the universe, but actually for

every person who's commenting going Jim

Jim Jim Jim gym, they're also commenting

on everybody else's content because they

just consume the content. I might be

their favorite, I might not. It doesn't

matter. I'm not um my I am not my job.

And I think that's really important for

a lot of influencers to work out like

they believe themselves to be

important. And actually, I say this

quite a lot. If I were to die tomorrow,

there'd be my friends and family would

be gutted obviously and they'd be really

really sad. And there'd be a few people

of my audience who are like who um have

a real connection with me, but for the

most part, people would go, "Oh, that's

a shame. I liked him." And they'd move

on. They'd find someone else. I'm not

that important to them that they can't

continue without me.

So funny because that's it sounds really

depressive to some degree to say, "I

don't matter, whatever." But I actually

think it's the opposite. It's really

freeing.

Yeah. It's the most liberating thing

ever. I remember I remember having the

same sort of existential conversation

with myself and it really happened when

I learned about the universe and space

and I got really into the cosmos and I

was like wait a minute I'm [ __ ] not

important at all.

Totally. when you when it like there's a

scene in Cosmos where it zooms out from

and it just keeps going and you're like

wait stop and it's like nope that's just

the moon and then it goes out and it's

like that's just the galaxy and then the

galaxy becomes a piece of sand and

you're like what the

but the the freeing part is that means

that all this [ __ ] doesn't matter

and that's liberation like ego can be

and this is the the powerful thing about

psychedelics from the last person that's

sat there who's the biggest psychedelics

investor in the world

is it dissolves your ego and says to you

nothing you don't [ __ ] matter

and yeah So, I just thought that was

fascinating.

It's really something that's really

important to to learn. I I think

probably one of my biggest uh learnings

from my career cuz I went through it,

you know, at the beginning when everyone

was like obsessing over the the

YouTubers, I was like, "Wow, I'm like a

really big deal."

Um I think it's really important to know

your worth and to know your value and to

um appreciate your position. I know that

I am worth a certain amount of money if

I work with a brand or I know that I'm

worth a certain amount of time if I'm

doing a thing. But I also know that I

don't matter in the grand scheme of

things and that this is a phase. I might

I might [ __ ] this up tomorrow. Do you

know what I mean? It might last for

another 10 years. It might last for

another 30 years and I might never want

to quit. Equally, I might get bored of

it and go, you know what? I feel like

it's too invasive now. Whatever. It

doesn't matter. It's my decision and I

don't owe anybody else. But equally,

they don't owe me. They don't have to

watch me if they don't choose to. And I

think that's really important. And a lot

of people, especially when they're young

and they're developing their sense of

identity, as a lot of influencers are,

and suddenly are put in the position

where they are reaching lots and lots of

people, um it's very very easy to think

of yourself as the center of the galaxy

and we're not. And actually what really

matters, what truly matters is the

people that matter to you, you know. And

as much as I appreciate my audience, I

don't know them, you know. I wouldn't

know. I mean, statistically, there'll be

a certain number of them that die every

year just because of whatever, right?

I've got no idea it's happening.

You're not sending cards.

You know what I mean? Like, I've got no

idea what's happening. So, it just so

happens that I'm on the other side of

the camera and these people connect to

me uh and I connect to them, but it

doesn't go any further than that. You

know,

something really almost some something

your perspective is fascinating because

on one end you're very you're very

freed, right?

Right. On the other end, you you talk

about your anxiety of of of worry. And

I'm I'm trying to weigh those two things

up. This idea that you're like, do you

know what? I don't have a plan. I've

heard you say that. I don't have a, you

know, 10 year plan. The future is the

future, whatever. But then maybe when we

zoom in and we look at the micro scale,

which is like right now, today,

it seems to be very

Yeah, you're not you're not wrong. I

think on the on the the wider scale um I

um it's very freeing to to know this on

the more individual scale like when you

when you zoom right in it's the stress

of survival I suppose of like um being

enough to maintain

you know what that bit comes down to

money I think which is unfortunate

because like money is not my main

motivator but I realize it's necessary.

Where did you learn that? I feel like is

there anything in your past where money

or the lack thereof beca, you know,

became um

compromised your safety?

No, I don't think it compromised my

safety. Like I say, we didn't have any.

Um and I appreciate that life is um it's

like I said earlier, there's a point

where you have enough and that after

that point it doesn't matter anymore.

You know, you can go from having a

little bit of surplus so that you can

enjoy holidays, etc., you know, buy

yourself some luxury things, whatever

you want. After that point, it's all

numbers. It doesn't really make any

difference. But when you go the other

side of the scale and you haven't got

enough, it's a major stress, you know,

because what blows my mind about it is

it's all fake. [laughter] Like it

doesn't it's just it's literally me

going, "Here, here's a piece of paper

for loads of your stuff." And you go,

"Okay, cool. I put value in that piece

of paper." It's bollocks. But it's

unfortunately the way our world works.

And that stresses me out just in terms

of providing. Like I couldn't go back. I

mean I could. I'd have to, but I would

really struggle if I had to go back to a

conventional job. Just doesn't suit me.

Like I was bloody miserable. My mom

thought I was going to kill myself when

I was working those jobs, you know? I I

was very very sad. Um I I think it's a

it's a need for me to create. And I I

know that sounds really ridiculous and

really wank, but like I I can't turn up

to a job that is the same thing every

day. It it it it for me feels like a

prison. Um and I actually I I think the

people that can do that are like special

because how wonderful to know that you

are um you can switch on, do your job.

um you can know that you are earning

your money, you're looking after your

people, you know, you raise your kids,

whatever, whatever it is, whatever your

life is, and also provide to society and

give back your taxes and all that stuff

and just be, you know, a good egg and

then go home and switch off again. I

just think that's the most wonderful

sensation. Something I've never

experienced and probably never will

because my mind doesn't work that way.

So for me, my the anxiety comes from the

fear of going back to that or not being

able to provide. And the only way I know

how to provide is in a very risky

industry where I have to constantly

churn out content. I have to constantly

create whatever I'm creating in order to

earn the money. Um, and that's that's a

scary thought. Um,

but I also appreciate that it's it's

the anxiety comes in the job of it. I

think the freedom comes in the um sort

of the more I guess meta of it. You

know, like I don't matter. it does

whatever that the the Jim Chapman's not

really of any relevance. Um, but for my

life, it's really important that I put

food on the table for for Sarah and my

child.

And that's funny because, you know, we

we always live in now, right? It's only

ever going to be now.

And uh what you're saying is in the now

there is urgency, there is stress.

Yeah.

It's so we never we're never going to

live in the future. It's never going to

be meta. That's not the experience we're

ever going to have. Maybe if we meditate

we can spend some time there, but

dayto-day we live in the we live in the

present moment. Um it's it's yeah it's

really really interesting to me and as

you say you're in an industry where a

lot of people aren't making a lot of

money right the creative industry so

it's particularly challenging um

yeah very much so and I think people are

following their passion I think the

thing with influencing in particular is

that the passion is so easily monetized

but it's also so easily taken away and

it's so competitive that it often I

think Some people are just passionate

about the business of it. Um, now I

don't pretend to have a business mind at

all. I haven't got a bloody clue. Like

I've got a production company that I've

just started with with one of my pals

and he is in charge of the business.

When it comes to my my social media

stuff, my management are in charge of

the business. I just make the stuff I

want to make, the stuff that I think

will be good. Um, and I fully believe in

letting people do play to their

strengths. My strength is not that. So,

but I often get called like an

entrepreneur or something. I'm like,

yeah, all right. I just I just been it's

it's been luck and timing and really

bloody hard work. Um and the hard work I

can I I'm in control of the luck and the

timing I'm not. Um and the other people

around me are in charge of sort of I

guess bringing looking after like the

financial side of it, you know, it's the

admin stuff that

I don't

you hate.

I [laughter] hate the fiery passion.

Yeah. Hate it. You said just a couple of

moments ago

the the proponents that have made you

successful. You said like you know luck,

hard work, etc., etc.,

do you think you could have achieved

what you've achieved over the last 10

years without hard work?

No, absolutely not.

How do you square that with the culture

we live in today that is almost viewing

hard work as a bit of a toxic thing?

I've almost got to the point I'll never

get there because I don't care that

much. But I've almost got to the point

and just to say again, I will never get

there, right? Because I'm not going to

lie to people

where I sometimes feel bad being honest

that I wouldn't be here without hard

work. I'm not telling you to burn out,

right? But I don't know how if I hadn't

have sacrificed in the way that I did, I

would of course that's my experience.

I've not lived another life, right?

I can only tell you what I've done.

Yeah. I think it's really important.

It's like work hard, play hard, right?

It's really important. I I I posted this

on on my Instagram stories the other

day. It's everybody there's there's like

You're right. There is a lot of people

who are sort of um uh poo pooing working

hard. Don't work too hard. And there's

also people who like on my Instagram it

comes up all the time. Hey, I run three

businesses and I do this and I'm only 12

years old and like

Yeah, but that guy's trying to sell you

a course.

For sure.

That is his business.

Yes, for sure. That's what I mean.

There's there's there's there's

definitely something to be said and this

is where I like again this is where I

struggle

when you work work hard like I and and

work with passion like you know again

Sarah's dad says says um work is a dirty

four-letter word right you if you find

the other saying if you find something

you love doing you'll never work a day

in your life so work really hard and

work with passion but also stop when you

need to stop take your time off enjoy

your evenings or you know again I've got

a job which allows me to work as much or

as little as I please. I wish I did like

a 4 day week. I would very much like to

do that so I have a three-day weekend or

I take a day off in the middle of the

week. I've got the means to do so, just

haven't got the brain to do so. You

know, um, and I think that

that's a really important distinction.

You work all your bloody life and

suddenly you're 60 and you've gone, "Oh

my god, I haven't like actually enjoyed

my experiences. Um, I haven't actually,

you know, I've got to do some really

bloody incredible experiences. And

sometimes I'm too busy stressing about

what's next in my diary or finishing a

thing, meeting a deadline, or even

stressing about the key messages I've

got to get across when I'm on that

adventure that I forget to enjoy the

adventure. And it's the biggest sort of

um waste of time that my job has within

it. You know, like I remember being in a

on a helicopter and this wasn't me

actually. This was somebody else who who

I recognized in. I was taken away um to

New York. I was going on a helicopter

around Manhattan and it was like, you

know, what a cool experience. People

don't get to do that very often. Um and

this guy was sat next to me in the

middle and he couldn't take his picture

because he had to lean over me. And I

said, "Oh, I'll swap seats with you."

The pilot came over the um you know, the

whatever it said and said, "Um, oh,

don't swap seats cuz you'll unbalance

the helicopter." The guy was so pissed

off. He said, "No, I want to swap." I'm

like, "Well, no, cuz you'll kill us

now." So, it's a bit different. I

offered you my seat when I didn't think

we were going to die for doing it. And

he sold so much because he couldn't get

the photo he wanted. And I'm like, that

for me really, really kind of is the

epitome of not enjoying the moment.

Like, just enjoy the bloody helicopter

ride around Manhattan, you idiot. Um,

but that's probably a byproduct of

social media or something because

yeah,

you know, the part of the value of that

was for him clearly was being able to

tell the world he did it versus being in

the moment. And

for sure, for sure. And that and

unfortunately that is the job. We have

to tell the world we've done something

otherwise you know it hasn't happened

right and then there's no point taking

you me on that really cool experience

because I haven't told anyone about it

you know so that there there's

definitely a a dichotomy there in that

you need to prove that you've done it

and you need to show your enjoyment um

but you need to also not let that take

you out of the moment and that's a fine

line. One of the things I've been

thinking a lot about lately, which links

to that completely, is because I sit

here with people all the time and I and

one of the things I keep noticing is

that in order for them to actually be

happy, they have to try and be a

contradiction or two completely

different people in separate areas of

their life. A lot of the lack of success

they have either in their work or

relationships or whatever or in their

personal lives comes from not being able

to switch off from being like being

super successful entrepreneur and then

when they get home being loving,

patient,

you know, and then in the the example

we've just been talking about there, I

would assume happiness would come from

being able to do your job and take the

photo, but then have experiences where

you just don't give a [ __ ] if the world

is watching.

That's entirely it. Like

how do you And that's not easy. No, it's

not easy. I

um

And dare I say, the thing that put you

on the helicopter might have been the

inability to switch off in some degree

because hard work. Hard work.

I haven't I haven't got to where I am by

switching off whenever I choose to. You

know what I mean? I've got here because

I work harder than I should.

Um and that's that's a massive sacrifice

because I've missed out on moments. I've

missed out on um you know like there are

times where I should just be more

present with Sarah but I'm too busy

working you know I miss out on things

but I get to go on the helicopter but

you know more than that I get to live a

really cool existence like I love my job

so it's it's really difficult but my the

way I kind of cross that tea dot that I

suppose is that I will very often much

rather pay for a holiday and have a

actual holiday.

[ __ ]

if I want to

say oh Dubai and they'll go all right

when do you want to go right but I tend

not to because

listen if if there's often times a thing

will come to me and it's it's a place

I've never been or experience I've never

had and I'll jump on it but I will tend

not to request a free trip because

honestly it my time is more valuable

than the money I can potentially earn.

So I would rather pay my money to go

somewhere and switch off and read a

book, do the crossword puzzle, hang out,

you know, because I value that much more

than the money. I think that that's the

thing. I think some people put their

value in money in my view too high. Um,

and I I don't value it like that. I

think my what's what's most important,

what I value more is people and time.

Okay, quick one, quick story from one of

my podcast sponsors, Fiverr. Fiverr.com,

as a lot of you will know if you've

listened to this podcast before. Um, one

of the challenges we've had with this

podcast over the last, I'd say, couple

of months since we've really cranked up

the production, is we usually promote

the podcast just on Mondays. So, you've

probably seen on my channels, Monday

morning about 9:00 a.m. I put the

podcast out there. And one of the things

we've wanted to do is to keep that sort

of momentum and hype moving throughout

the week from Monday till Sunday when

the next podcast comes out. But we've

had a bit of a resource capacity because

Jack who produces all of this and edits

all of this only has so much time and

these podcasts are coming in thick and

far. So we turned to Fiverr to help us

extend our capacity and we hired a video

editor on Fiverr who's now producing all

of our video clips for this podcast. So

now in a very very very cost-effective

way, we've been able to promote the

podcast every single day from Monday

till Sunday. That is what Fiverr is all

about. Extending your team, giving you

capabilities you might not have had and

doing it in a very cost-effective way.

One of the other really interesting

things you said as we were talking,

maybe before we started filming, was you

were talking about the things that

you're good at writing about with your

screenplays, and one of the things you

said was love.

Yeah.

And I thought to myself, I wonder why

he's good at writing about love. Um, I

don't know actually. I I I know my my

strengths when it comes to writing. And

it's one of those things where to begin

with, we've all got imposter syndrome,

right? Constantly. I've still got it 10

years on. But I know I'm good at that.

Um, I know I can send a script

somewhere. They might not like it. It

might not be the thing for them. And

then I get told no quite a lot, but

invariably they say, you know what,

great script. You've done a really good

job there. Um, so I am confident in my

ability there. And I know my strengths

are dialogue. Um cuz I write how people

talk but also get the point across. Like

I can't I'm the worst person to watch a

film with cuz if I'm watching something

I'm like people don't talk like that.

[laughter] What is going you know um but

also love. I I just think I've got I I

don't know. I think I'm a bit of an old

romantic and it comes down I I think it

really for me comes down to how you feel

love. You know if you can feel love and

you can put pen to paper you can write

love. Um, and I I I

pride myself on trusting and loving like

to I'm not a jealous person. I'm not um

I'm never going to micromanage a

relationship or anything like that. If I

love someone, I trust them implicitly.

They can do as they wish. They can go

out with the boys, whatever. I'm never

going to go, "Oh, who did you meet and

what happened?" I'm never going to like

check their phone,

you know? I'm never going to do any of

that because

if I love someone, I'm all in. Um, and

that for me is really important. If you

get your fingers burnt, then all right,

then you then that's they get one

chance, you know. Um, and that's that's

my life.

You had a very public relationship,

one that was shared on YouTube for many

many years. You ended up marrying said

person and um and then that relationship

ended. Um, difficult I imagine to to

have that experience in public, right?

Next to impossible. Yeah. Like it's uh,

you know, we were together for 12 years

and most of that time was wonderful. You

know, it was really great. Like I say,

we conquered the world together. We were

we were both part of that first breed of

influencers, social media people, and we

had a wicked time. And then we grew up

together. It was as simple as growing up

in slightly different directions, you

know. Um, and at some point, you know,

the are you going to do the further you

go on like that, the wider the gap gets.

I literally just did this for the first

time last week on this podcast. I was

like, I'm almost starting to see

relationships like two parallel lines.

And and if you imagine the parallel

lines have just a 1% angle either way.

Sure.

Right. They're either going to stay

parallel. They're either going to go

away from each other or closer together

over time.

Totally. I look back at it now and I

realize that actually it probably it was

a small a small incline or decline,

whichever way you want to put it, but it

some point becomes insurmountable,

becomes a chasm you can't leap anymore,

right? So I look back at it and realize

that perhaps it was uh it started much

earlier than either of us anticipated,

even either of us realized. and we just

kind of kept getting more and more

distant until eventually we were just

roommates basically. Um,

was it hard to break it off when you get

to that point because you've got the

world watching?

Yeah, it wasn't hard as a couple cuz we

were both we both knew we deserved

better, right? We both knew we're like

this isn't working and we took a it took

a [clears throat] long time to have the

conversation because I think we both

tried for a while. We're like it'll come

back around. It'll come back around but

we're not stupid. We both knew we

deserve better. So the when we actually

had the conversation, it was for both of

us quite freeing, emotional because of

all the time we had together, but quite

freeing. Of course, you've then got the

audience to think of who make [snorts]

assumptions, right? And oh, I've lost

count the amount of times I've been

called a cheater. Um, just and poor old

Sarah gets called my mistress

constantly.

I didn't even know Sarah existed. Like,

she was not a person to me until well

after we broke up, you know? Like I met

her on an app and like I'm really I'm

really tempted at some point sometimes

to get the app, right? I haven't got it

anymore, but I want to redownload it and

find our conversation. Go, look, we

started talking on this date [laughter]

um just to just to prove the point

because it's not Sarah didn't sign up

for this [ __ ] You know, she fell in

love with me. Um and it just so happens

that I come with a bit of an audience

who have opinions on things. And you

know, we all gossip, right? You we've

all got opinions on things. I watch

people go through break up breakups on

TV or I watch like the drama with say

Megan and Harry or whatever and I and I

have my thoughts and my feelings on it.

Um but of course I'm not going to DM

them [laughter]

about it, you know. Um and I think that

is the issue that on the internet

there's sort of anonym an anonymity and

people can

say things there's no repercussions. I

lost my [ __ ] the other day on on social

media because and I never address it.

I'm very much of the like I said earlier

I I'm inconsequential on the grand

scheme of things. So I can take hate.

I've got a thick skin. It doesn't it

bounces straight off. I don't care. Like

this is my job. It's not a personal

reflection on me. So whatever. But

somebody had DM'd Sarah a bunch of

pictures of my old relationship, my

previous life. And said, "You'll never

match up to her." And then had sent

another one saying, "And your child

deserved to be miscarried." And I lost

my [ __ ] And I'd never I've never

behaved this way online. But I went

straight to my Instagram stories and I

told the person I said [ __ ] you to the

person. Um and also I was very mad and

perhaps I should have let caller heads

prevail but actually the amount of um

support I had off the back of it. People

saying you know what bloody too right.

Stand up for you stand up for Sarah.

Stand up for yourself. Stand up for your

child. Um and we had two years of it

right cuz me and Tanya broke up just

over two years ago. Me and Sarah got

together

I don't know like as far as the world is

concerned a few months later but

obviously that [clears throat] wasn't it

because the world only found out me and

Tanya broke up when we decided to tell

them and we only decided to tell them

when we did because the press found out.

So actually it was much earlier than

anyone realizes

cuz we were trying to get our heads

around it and work out how to do it with

minimal

um sort of like minimal backlash,

minimal

negative energy, right? because we

didn't have any towards each other at

all. Um, but when it comes to

when it comes to me being called a

cheater or whatever, whatever, it's

fine. It bounces back off. I hold my

head high. Everybody who I know and care

about and respect and love knows what

really happened. And that's what really

matters to me. I don't care. But when it

comes to somebody

calling my pregnant fiance the names

they called her and saying that my baby

should be miscarried, that's where I

draw the line.

the person that sent that message.

Mhm.

You know that they

they probably wanted that reaction.

Yeah, I do. Um I one of the best pieces

of advice I was ever given was don't

play around in the mud with the pigs cuz

you both get dirty but the pigs will

love it. Right. So I live by a motto of

never explain, never complain. I don't I

own my decisions. Like I own my life.

I'm an adult. I don't have to explain

myself to anyone should I not wish to.

Right? Simple. Um I am confident in my

ability and my decisions that I'm like

this is the path I'm choosing and you

can like it or lump it basically. Um but

I felt like making an example. I didn't

out anyone. I didn't say any names.

didn't, you know, share any um

usernames, but I felt like making an

example of that person, especially with

it being so out of character for me to

do so would have had overall a positive

consequence for the people who were

thinking it but weren't writing it or

the people that were thinking of writing

it. And actually, do you know what

Sarah's getting much less of it now, I'm

getting much less of it now. Um, so I

think in a way it was almost like

costbenefit analysis in a way. You know,

I I I weigh these things up and I think

there's always going to and I've been

thinking a lot lately because of um

there was a couple of my friend is the

global head of social media at

Manchester United and there's a lot of

black players and so when the team loses

what you see on the black players

Instagrams there's lots of monkey emojis

and um it's actually awfully my friend

called me and he said what do we do

about this right and he said we're going

to take this dance um as a club and you

know they we talked a little bit about

it on like our WhatsApp group or

whatever and the club stood up changed

the cover photos and said like

Manchester United against racism, the

players's got more racism because

shining a light on it.

It's like it's almost like it's not a

real thing. How do I explain this? It's

it could be some 14-year-old kid who

who's leaving these monkey emojis who is

actually quite an okay person, but they

just have this thing in them where they

want a bit of attention. They see you or

Marcus Rashford as not really a real

human, right, and an idol. And so they

think just leave. They're not like an

inherently bad person, but when you get

anonymity and you get and and we all

have this, you know, envy in us that

comes from somewhere, you know, the

lifeboat analogy,

right?

And so like I I'm what I'm I don't know

what I'm basically saying is like I

don't think we're ever going to be able

to cure that problem

with the only way I've actually seen is

I think you'd kill 99% of it if social

networks went anonymous and you had to

upload your passport

because I think if if you connect real

world consequences to behavior.

I fully agree.

It's why you don't get your dick out in

public. It's well not well that's not

why but it's like it's why you don't go

up to someone and say those things in

public because there's real world

consequences.

I totally agree. I think I think people

should have there should be some sort of

like identification process when you set

up an account and totally agree with it

because the amount I get, the amount

Sarah gets um is it's a it's a real

bloody shame as well because especially

because these people are like

supposed to be and I use this in

inverted commas fans. They're supposed

to care about my life, my existence.

They're supposed to, you know, they

followed me for a reason.

Yeah.

Um and I refuse to believe, especially

because I'm I like to think I'm a force

for positivity. I tend I talk real talk

and I share real things. But even when