This boy and girl are going to be well

equipped when the time comes to take

their places as worthy members of adult

society.

Aloha y'all. This is Daniel Eisman, the

host of the Breaking Normal podcast,

where my guests are all invited based on

the frequency of synchronicity, all done

in person and all trailblazers and the

breaking of all things normal.

>> All right, y'all. Welcome to the

Breaking Normal podcast. We're closing

out 2025 in a very Breaking Normal way.

As you can tell, I'm in a new studio,

which is actually the home of the guy

I'm sitting with, Matt Winkley. Welcome

to Breaking Normal, and welcome to your

house.

>> Well, thank you for that invite, and I'm

glad to be here.

>> I realized I said home and house. What

is the difference to you between the

two?

>> Um, I think a home is where there's love

and family and friends. I think a house

can be like an investment property,

>> which you're into both of these.

>> I'm into both. Yeah. So, I know a little

bit about the differences.

>> Yeah. And [laughter] one of the ways I

know you is because your lovely wife

Julie

>> was the realator to a previous podcast

guest and a strong ally of mine, Raj

Leody.

>> Great. Yes, that's a great connection.

>> That's one of them. How do you think we

know each other? I think we know each

other through our online community and

we have I don't know countless amounts

of mutual friends and it was bound to

bump into each other and connect and I

think somehow we got connected that way

would be my best guess. And then we took

that relationship offline to hey I'm in

Oh, I think we talked offline once. We

did like a phone call.

>> That's right. That's right. And that's

where you told me about a lot of your

past history.

>> Yeah. We just sort of like took off.

Yeah. We took their relationship offline

there. And then you were traveling to

San Diego. I'm like, "Hey, if you're in

town, let's connect." And then that's

how we met up in person.

>> And then I saw your heavily meditated

11-month-old at the sunset.

>> Meditated. Correct. Not medicated.

Meditated.

>> That actually that's a good

>> Just make sure things to talk about.

We've talked about the difference

between a home and a house. What do you

mean that he's highly meditated and not

highly medicated?

>> Um, my wife and I are very intentional

in everything that we do. And we can we

can probably go miles deep into those

directions of how we set up our life and

how we set up our marriage and how we

set up our home and how we set up our

family, how we set up our finances, how

we all of that kind of stuff. There is

massive amounts of intention behind all

of that and um

>> I can affirm that by the way by being a

guest here at your place at your

additional dwelling unit and here for

Christmas.

>> Yeah, I'm glad you could feel that

energy. It's um we put a lot of work

into it and it's not uh you know it's

something that needs to be watered and

nurtured and cared for. um and and

executed on. It's not something that

just you know uh it can be a whimsical

like yeah let's just create this and

never like actually have a clear vision

with a purpose behind that vision and a

plan that works that we're excited about

and we want to execute and take actions

on and all that. Um

but I think you know let's peel back a

little bit further before I get into

like how we set up our family. I think

where where my story starts is I'm a a

guy from a small town who wanted to

escape a small town. And growing up in

New England in a small um uh farm town,

I really wanted to experience a bigger

life and more than what uh small town

America could offer me at that time.

Even though that those are really nice

options, I um I wanted to desperately

escape and see what else was out there.

So, shortly after I graduated college, I

booked literally booked a one-way ticket

to California with no car

>> to San Diego or

>> to San Diego.

>> Have you heard of the Blink 182 song? Uh

San Diego, where he sings about booking

a one-way ticket to San Diego?

>> That might have subconsciously been part

of it. [laughter]

I'm not sure if I'm aware of that

particular lyric, but I'm aware of the

story. It's a very common story where

people uh are feel called to an

adventure and uh are drawn to it and

then go on this big adventure and find

themselves or find meaning or purpose or

whatever they're after. For me, I wanted

to discover all of it. I wanted to see a

a bigger world. I wanted to see how I

fit into that world. I wanted to see um

and taste more experiences and be

exposed to different kinds of

lifestyles, cultures. I was just looking

for a lot of that. So, when I landed in

San Diego, it was like a a big dream for

me, you know? I'm like, I'm living

inside my dream. I felt literally uh

emotionally high for like two months.

I'm like, I can't believe I live in

paradise. I can't believe I pulled it

off. I can't believe I did it. I escaped

that town and I'm here and my feet are

in the sand and I'm connected with all

these interesting people and people who

are challenging uh the status quo of

life like I was and just um you know all

kinds of rebellious people and artist

and culture that California can offer. I

was like drawn to all of it. And so the

next thing was, well, how am I going to

actually

uh live here because I got to pay for it

somehow. [laughter]

So So that started my my next chapter

where um

I didn't feel drawn to a a a normal sort

of life. I was really drawn to something

that was way outside the box. And the

next dream that I could that I could

think of was how do I control my time

that I don't have to report to a boss or

to something on a daily basis and I

could report to myself that I could

declare how I wanted my day to unfold. I

could pursue what I thought really

mattered. And really what landed was

okay I guess entrepreneurship

is how does that work? How do I become

my own boss? How do I do things that

matter? How do I figure out how money

works? And so that was my next chapter

and um explored uh an an idea of of uh

what I had experience in which was

working with kids on the autism

spectrum. I was like a social work major

in college. It was something I was good

at and I was like, can I turn this into

a business somehow because this is

basically all I really know and what I'm

pretty good at. And uh so that was my

attempt um with a business partner. We

uh scaled this little idea out of an

apartment um of working of of creating

like a mentoring program and and like

little surf camps and things like that

for kids on the autism spectrum

and started the process of of of

starting something that mattered,

starting a business. And it was slowly

but surely. It was a grind and grueling

and not an overnight success at all.

There was a lot of setbacks, a lot of

failures, a lot of learning curves. Um,

it was an absolute grind for about five

or six years until we figured out uh a

couple key things in the business that

um helped us really actually scale into

something very different. We actually

became a healthcare company and we

started doing uh therapy for kids on the

autism spectrum opening up clinics doing

in uh in school in home and clinic based

therapy work and that really took off.

We um scaled to like 200 employees and

thousands of patients. It's all

insurance-based uh which helped so

there's a lot of funding for it and

learned a lot about business, learned a

lot about creating a an amazing work c

culture where people were drawn to

heart-c centered leadership, drawn to

trusting in something that was bigger

themselves, trusting each other,

trusting themselves. Um, so I learned a

lot about leadership and how to become a

good leader, how to have integrity as a

leader, how to create a value system in

a company that people believed in. Uh we

coined the phrase in our company that

our value system is the boss and that's

who led us. That's that was our ultimate

leader.

>> And uh and had a great great experience

doing that. um a lot of buy in. Um just

just created a brand that was recognized

by quality, by sincere, heartfelt work,

by people who cared. Um so it was a it

was a phenomenal experience and I

learned all three of those things. I

became a boss, owned my time, uh was

able to do something that really deeply

mattered. We changed lives and I learned

how money worked. I figured that out

through business and then eventually

uh establishing investment comp real

estate investment companies and going in

that direction.

So all of that was from clear intention.

What I wanted, where I wanted to live,

what I wanted to do, what I wanted to

create in the world through a process

called vision planning, which I did a

lot of um to create those particular

targets, those goals, those sort of high

uh highest intentions that I had and got

clear on those and then with plans that

I could execute on. Um, so that was sort

of some work stuff that I did and we

adopted it in my personal life too. Um,

when my wife and I got together. Uh

there's about 9 and a half year

difference between us and I had been in

the hamster wheel for a while and then

when we got together she was really just

getting going in the in the work world

and she had some really keen

observations about it when she went out

and got like started to really look for

a job. um was that one she could not get

around the fact that you sit in a

cubicle or you sit somewhere for eight

hours [laughter]

>> and then you stay there. Well, first of

all, you sit in traffic and then you sit

in a building and then you come home to

sit in more traffic and then you do that

for 40 years, 50 years and that's called

life. Mhm.

>> And um so she really pushed back on that

idea. Uh that that was definitely not a

path that she was interested in. And at

that point I only knew was you just put

your head down and you work your ass

off. You work as hard as you can to get

ahead. And that was my version of

understanding how to how to do life. So

neither were very good options. and we

came together and said, 'Look, we're not

really enjoying either one of these.

What would we love to have in our life

instead of those two options? [snorts]

Like what would be an ideal day if we

started like what time would we wake up

at? What would we do during the morning?

What would we have for lunch? How would

our afternoon flow? What would be the

end of the day like? If we could dream

and really just map out like these

versions of perfect days and perfect

ideal sweet days, what would they even

look like? And we started to backfill

fill that time in like our morning would

be slow and easy. We would we would move

our bodies. We'd spend time with people

that we would care about. We would have

options. We um you know, we could do

things that felt fulfilling to us. We

could rest. We could relax. Um we could

travel. We could we could book a flight

and go somewhere on a whim. We could um

have adventures. We could you know it

was all this sort of our version of an

ideal sweet beautiful day. It started

there.

>> I find that pretty fascinating. So in

like instead of envisioning your full

life, you started almost like in a micro

dose version of how to have the ideal

day. Is this part of like the strategy

of what you call vision planning?

>> It's a little bit of it. Yeah. I I I

want to know because a lot of times

that's all life is. [laughter]

>> How many morning how many mornings do

you have in your life? What do you want

to do with those mornings?

>> You're you're going to eat foods every

day. What would you like to put in your

body? You're going to be around people.

Who would you like to be around? Uh

Julie and I's families uh are are not

close to us, but they're important to

us. How can we spend time with them and

see them as much as we want? Um, and

then the point about starting a family.

If we wanted to have a family, what

would that look like? Would would we

want to travel with our children? Would

we want to educate them from home? Would

we want to have exposure to different

places and experiences? Like, what would

that how would we want to parent them?

Would we both be stay-at-home parents?

Would one work? Would both work? Would

we be dropping them off at daycare? We

were like really had conversations about

what we wanted out of that experience.

And we got to some conclusions that felt

like from our heart that like set us on

fire, that felt inspiring, that felt

juicy and like I think we hit pay per

you know where your hair standing up on

your arm kind of feeling like

>> hit per

>> paid dirt

meaning when you go deep enough into

>> pay dirt

>> into something

>> there's a payoff because there's such a

a sweet, you know,

>> uh experience at the end of that that it

just feels so so um juicy and good. Like

I want to be ridiculously and

unbelievably happy. That's my target in

life.

>> And I feel like that's a synonym for

living a divinely inspired life. They're

one and the same.

>> And so that's what I'm interested in

pulling off. Like what does ridiculously

unbelievably happy marriage look like?

What does a ridiculously unbelievably

happy body feel like? what does a

ridiculously and unbelievably happy

finances look like? You know, so there's

what's a 10 out of 10, you know, an

ideal sweet sort of day life. And so we

put that together and I think there's a

couple words that that we came to that

felt really good. One of them was

freedom is that we wanted to generate a

lot of freedom. uh freedom to move, to

be mobile, freedom to to spend time with

people that we care about, freedom to

pursue our passions, freedom to be

healthy and balanced, um to explore our

spiritual lives, uh you know, all of

that kind of thing. And so

when we started to look at the practical

side of it, well, how are we going to

fund this freedom, right? because that's

probably not going to be attached to a a

physical job somewhere that we have to

go to Monday through Friday, you know,

40, 50, 60 hours a week.

How do we do this? We're not trust fund

people. We didn't come from, you know,

wealthy families. We're came from

hardworking middle-class families. And

that's what we knew. Um, so how do we do

that from that with that background and

that lack of financial education? what

we need to discover to create freedom in

our lives. And one of the thing by doing

the research by figuring out okay how

does financial literacy work? What are

assets? What are liabilities?

We discovered um that we really like the

idea of the asset class of real estate

for a variety of reasons. And we said,

well, let's go all in on this and learn

let this be our freedom path, financial

freedom path. let's establish some

passive income that can support this

ideal dreamy life that we want to have.

And uh so my wife decided to become a

realer. Um I kicked things into gear

with my business to try to um for that

to become successful and profitable so

we could put put uh resources into the

real estate business and start to buy

assets and start to develop them.

And after about eight years, it took us

eight years, we accomplished financial

freedom and were able to establish

enough uh assets that could we could

live off passively.

>> And that sort of began our path to that

life that we dreamed about. Being able

to have mobility, being able to meet

cool people like you, Daniel, right?

like I have all this space and time in

my life to hang out and make connections

and grow those connections and give back

to my community. We give a lot to our

community. We host a lot of people. We

travel and go visit our friends and go

have adventures and experiences with

them and um we just uh were just back

east for a period of time for the

holidays. We spent the whole summer near

my mom so my mom could get to know her

grandson more. [clears throat]

>> Um, Julie's attended every single birth

of her sisters and her uh some of her

closest friends. That's important to her

is to be around those really um

meaningful moments of life. And she was

a doula at those births and some of

those she had to be there for a month,

>> month and a half. How many, you know, a

traditional job doesn't give you those

kinds of days off, you know? So, that's

how we're using our time, the way that

we intended for it. And it's a very uh

like I said, a very intentional life

that we built based on a very clear

vision, clear values, and a plan that we

both felt like we could um execute on,

take actions on.

Well, from what I can tell, the future

that y'all remembered, you really

walking walking into it gracefully. I've

spent time with you, you and your family

and your beautiful boy, Adam, and

Julie's out with Deina right now at the

ninja gym. It's like everything you said

basically seemed is like it's true. It's

coming true.

>> It It's the Yeah. And it didn't just

start like we held our breath for eight

years. We started that day

>> because

in that moment we tr we truly started to

find our freedom because I think the

opposite of freedom is living in a

prison, an internal prison of like lack

of clarity, lack of knowing who you are,

lack of knowing what you truly long for.

Like heart stuff, like heartstorming.

Like how to really get in here and pull

this out? Like what are you truly

longing for? to be a father, to be an

entrepreneur, to be an adventurer, to be

uh to move to a new city. Like what are

you really longing for? To be healthy,

to um

>> all of them,

>> you know, like what what part of it is

you're really drawn to? And so

um

that started the process of freedom for

me because I could get real clarity on

like what I was drawn to. Prior to that,

I really didn't know. It was like being

in a room with the lights turned off.

Like, I really don't know where things

are. I really don't quite know where I'm

going. Um, I'm just kind of feeling my

way through the dark. And then someone

say, "Hey, there's a switch over here.

Why don't you pop it on?" Uh, much

better. I can see things. That's where

the couch is. I don't have to bump into

that anymore. I actually can make a path

around this room to get to where I want

to go.

You said prior to that, prior to what

the vision planning or was there like an

epiphany one day or was it meeting Julie

or was like an ongoing process?

>> It was chronic illness.

>> Okay.

>> That's what grabbed me, pulled me down

and stopped me uh in my place was um

working 80hour work weeks, grinding

myself into a pulp to pay for a life I

did not like living anymore. And that's

what grabbed me out of thin air and

halted me by the rains. My body

literally collapsed and said, "We will

not take another step forward in the

direction you're going in."

And it was a loud enough wakeup call

that it captured my attention fully

because I could not get out of bed.

>> I was a strapping athlete, marathon

runner, triathlete. I was a high

achiever type of personality

and I went hard after the things that I

thought were my goals. And a lot of

people I think are in my boat. They may

have mastery of their mind, disciplined

uh achievers,

accomplished goals, but they may not

have mastered their hearts. And that's

where I was at is I had a very strong

mind. I was able to like will myself to

these things if you if you will and but

I wasn't I was a a a student of the

heart. I was a novice of the heart. And

so I had to learn how to go inside and

find these answers that I was missing

about um peace, what that feels like

about love, about compassion towards

myself

uh to about integrity, about honesty. As

Roomie says, the only light on the inner

path is honesty. How I'm truly doing

what do I truly want? How do I actually

tap into that? How do I feel that? How

do I emotionally feel that? How do I

What does that look like to me? Um, I

had to like get into the sematics of it,

if you will, like to really tap in and

listen to this poor little guy that I

was just whipping and beating and just

like, "Go horse, go."

Until the whip didn't work anymore. So,

I had to put that down, take a new

approach, and become my own best friend

and listen to what this guy was really,

really longing for. I was not longing to

work the way that I was working. I was

not I I came out here for fun and

adventure and that got uh set to the

side and it got replaced by grind and

grit and like how do I afford to live

here? like and it was not a very good

strategy and I think like

meditating learning meditation and and I

went there's a whole other chapter of

the I went to a school to learn this and

uh I spent three or four years um

actually pretty much like living a

monk's lifestyle where I was celibate

for three of those years um I started to

go inward meditate learn how to connect

into myself. And it was a profound

education and left me with tremendous

tools, skills, and the ability to now

connect more deeply to myself to really

unearth my deeper aspirations and what's

in there and um become a champion of

putting happiness on the table, of

raising the bar of happiness. I mean,

it's so freaking low in many people's

lives. are some people are on life

support with happiness. You know,

they're they're living a two out of 10

and they're just barely getting by or

are um you know are suffering in silence

or I mean there's a lot of people really

experiencing that and I was one of them

and I didn't want a life of just getting

by. I didn't feel very

exciting to me and as I get older now

time is very precious. I don't want to

waste it by, oh, let's just spend a day

by getting by today. I want to like

unearth

the the parts of me that want to just

flourish and thrive and connect to them.

Those goals, those aspirations. Becoming

a father was one of them. I almost

didn't. Like Julie and I were really

happy with our lives we that we built.

We had a great connection. We had a

great lifestyle and felt fulfilled and

weren't wasn't sure anything else was

missing. Um until again this heart

[laughter] started started having

something to say and I sat and it was in

a meditation retreat that I had a

profound mystical non-plant medicine.

This is just organic meditation.

um a profound mystical experience um

that cracked me in a way that had never

seen myself like that before and got so

deep inside

uh the part of me that saw um I actually

deeply long to be a father

>> and I just wasn't sure that I could

because of the stress and I was getting

older and all this stuff. But I was able

to actually

resolve that and heal that pain and

become whole again and become very very

excited about the idea of of being a

father and the kind of dad I wanted to

be. And then I brought that to Julie and

my wife and she was totally on board and

she's like, "Yeah, I I want him too.

Let's do it." and like boom what like

made the intention

and then we were like we knew how we

wanted to do the pregnancy and all we

got pregnant right away and

>> were y'all taking precautionary measures

beforehand not to get pregnant. Okay.

All right. So, okay. I was just

>> there there was moments there was

moments we were desperately not trying

[laughter] to especially when I was

>> in a very deep grind with my career. um

less precautions uh after things settled

down and I sold my company and okay if

something happens but it wasn't like we

were like I had turned on like it wasn't

like I saw this this light turned on in

me that was like I really want to be a

dad now

>> and then when that came it was like a

different energy it was a totally

different energy and uh was like so

excited about this chapter

and and we had a an amazing pregnancy

and um and we got the the my wife is

very into holistic approaches towards

health and uh we had a home birth right

here in this home upstairs from here and

um Adam was born at sunset

>> and as the sun was setting uh it was a

pretty w it was a pretty wild birth uh I

had ever experienced this since then or

before then? But in the in the room

upstairs, it's a beautifully naturally

lit uh lit room and there's like all

kinds of trees outside the windows and

there was just like birds just going off

like chirping and singing right as he

was born. [laughter]

And I looked at like the midwife. I

looked at everyone in are you guys

hearing this? And everyone was like, "Oh

my god, this is wild. Adam's being born.

nature's responding to it. The sun is

setting, you know, and and there was no

complications. Um he he was born uh when

he came he was it was a great birth and

um and uh it was just it was amazing. We

actually uh filmed it and had had a

videographer and we have we put it on we

posted online to inspire other people

that might be afraid of home birth or it

can be an amazing experience. And so we

captured that and um and yeah. Yeah. So

if people want to check it out on my

Instagram, it's there.

>> Okay. Wow. I mean that's something we

have in common. And I know another

mutual friend we have in common too.

Troy Casey I think one of his home birth

her wife's home birth. You

>> put it on YouTube as well.

>> Yeah. I remember that like getting a lot

of views. Um and Deina was home birthed

a couple miles from here.

>> And now Deina and Adam are together

right now. How interesting is that?

>> Couple of home birth right around sunset

actually.

>> Oh really? the same time.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty awesome.

>> Yeah. And we had our friends uh they

were they were the hawks, so they

weren't necessarily birds, but the our

last name Hawk. They were like hovering

around because I guess she's a mom and

they were very close to us. Jenny Hawk

is a mother of three beautiful children

that we were friends with.

>> Yeah.

>> And we still are. And they just I guess

they could sense it too. And they were

just like waiting to hear. Uh so we had

the hawks while y'all had the birds

during sunset. And I I don't hear the

birds chirp like that. I mean, you'll

hear occasionally hear some birds go off

here and there, but not like at uh the

chorus that they were creat

and and and our team, our birth team was

just uh we couldn't have asked for a

better team. I mean, the whole

experience and I think that really set

the tone for Adam's life. uh my son and

uh you've experienced him.

>> He's just a very present

um little boy. He he looks at you very

deeply.

>> He loves to be seen. He wants you he

wants invites people into him as he

likes to look at you to know you.

>> Um he is just a magical child.

[laughter]

and he's been, you know, just and also

we, my wife is just I got to give all

credit to her. I mean, the way that she

um co-sleeps with him, uh, you know,

breastfed 100%.

Uh, the patience that she has and the

tenderness and the kindness. Um, we we,

you know, we don't yell at Adam. We

don't scold him. we we really just

nurture his instincts and for curiosity

and connection and um so it's uh it's so

far so good. [laughter] So far so good.

It's been an amazing journey thus far.

>> He's an amazing child and you know we

might eventually have hopefully we get

Julie on the show. Um but I can't deny

the correlation especially with the

breaking normal audience to circle it

back to the beginning how you said he's

not heavily medicated.

>> Yeah.

>> Um just the correlation of another baby

that hasn't from my understanding hasn't

seen many doctors or at all seems to be

all the ways you were describing.

>> Correct. Yeah. He

uh

>> because a lot of ch a lot

[clears throat] of parents are afraid

[music] to not take their child to a

hospital or a doctor and do as

>> well I mean we've had

>> nominal visits are my landscap

>> I wonder how I don't know how the

feedback works in all this but we'll

make it work. We'll flow with it

>> hopefully. Uh he's not supposed to be

here today but he showed up anyway. He's

part [laughter] of it.

>> Extra extra ambitious. It is a nice day.

It's a super nice day.

Um,

yeah. Anyways, I mean the treat the

inputs that he has had have been very

holistic. Like he's been to a

chiropractor, he's been to um

>> like just like like massages and just um

or things that he he may need, you know,

just that where

>> he's gone to get massages from some

someone else other than y'all.

>> Yeah. I mean, little like babies.

>> I like that. [laughter] that you can do.

>> Y'all should video that. I want to see I

want to like watch a baby get massaged,

[laughter]

>> especially Adam.

>> It's just a nervous system thing, you

know, where it just helps with with

stress and and there's stress being born

on the body. Uh he came out with a

little bit of cortisolis, which is like

a slight like kink in his neck. That's

why we did the chiropractor care, you

know, just to get that input early.

>> Um those kinds of things. Um, but I mean

Julie could probably speak to this. She

she knows a ton of um this side of

things of care in your podcast. You

probably cover that. I'm probably not as

versed there. Um but uh but overall um I

meditate with him and um when he takes a

nap with me uh that's that's a lot of

oftentimes I'll do meditation with him

>> and kind of spend time on the on the

internal life together and it's

fascinating you know to like sit and

feel the energy of him and to feel his

spirit. Um, I was kind of in this deep

meditation with him one time

where I actually consulted a friend of

mine who uh who was kind of a spiritual

mentor in my life because I was like his

soul scared me like it was so big. I

like I was I was kind of like going into

that soul space and then I was meeting

him there and it felt massive and I was

so I had questions about that. I was

like, "Can some people's souls be bigger

than others?" And he had an interesting

answer. He's like, "Your son's

witnessing more of that than you are?"

[laughter] It's like, you're in a room

and you're in the corner and he's using

the whole room and you're only using

like a tiny part of your corner of that

room because of all the veils and the

pictures that have gotten attached to

you as you've aged. And um there's no

veils on him. There's no he's witnessing

like the the divine 100% God

consciousness at this stage. Um so

that's why it felt so big was his

ability to witness more of his soul than

when what I could witness at least. I

thought that was like a cool way of like

looking at that and that felt

interesting because I kind of felt that.

I was like okay yeah it's not like a

soul is bigger than another. It's like

the witnessing of that can be different.

>> That's uh such a cool idea, meditating

with your children. Um I'm imagining a

lot of people are going to be like

inspired by that, including myself. How

would you encourage someone to start

meditating with their child?

>> Well, I um is he meditating with me or

is he just sleeping? [laughter]

I definitely am meditating and he's

laying on my chest sleeping. Right. So,

um

I I have a meditation practice. So, if

you have a practice that you can lean

into, lean into it. um I'll do my

practice

and I'll get myself into that space and

start to go through from ego to to heart

to soul like in the so I study uh Sufism

and I've studied that system

and uh in that system I'm going through

the layers of the heart so that's a

meditation practice that I'm doing and

as I'm opening each door of that layer I

can feel myself the sensations of what

it's like to rip ripple out into the

deeper parts of that heart space. And so

as I'm traveling inside, I'm sensing,

I'm feeling it, I'm starting to see

things, I'm seeing energy, I'm seeing um

these different kinds of, you know,

quantum fields, if you will. And um and

I'm starting to witness it with him, you

know, like you can tap in with others

and become like in this coherent energy

space.

>> And uh so that's where I feel like I'm

traveling together with his spirit and

my spirit. And even if he's just like

sleeping, his he's still, you know,

traveling in those spaces, if you will.

And uh so I'm just kind of like linking

up with where he's at. [laughter]

That makes sense.

>> Well, what is what [snorts] do you think

the main difference between like

dreaming while you're asleep versus

having visions while you're meditating?

Well, I think if there there's

differences is that

my understanding is that the pineal

gland, one of the key ingredients for

that to have a mechanically open is to

have the core ingredient of melatonin.

And the most amount of melatonin you

have is in the middle of the night when

you're dreaming because that's a key

ingredient for dreams. And so it's it's

actually a really nice time to wake up

and meditate. 3:00, four o'clock in the

morning, two o'clock, somewhere around

there where you have a headful of

melatonin. You're in that awake, sleepy

space

is um the in Sufism they say the veils

are the thinnest at that hour

because it's a very quiet time. Your

brain is already in that process of

being in in the ability of opening up

the pineal gland. And now you don't want

to actually go to sleep. you want to

stay awake and be cautious, but it's

kind of a fun feeling to be in that in

between state where you can have um just

a more

easy way in, if you will, that it's like

when you meditate, I don't know, right

now in the middle of the day, it's

really dense. You've been awake for a

while. The world's very active. Um it

may take a minute to drop in a little

bit, a little bit deeper, deeper,

deeper, deeper to get past that sort of

um activity in the mind and slow it down

and really kind of connect to the energy

of the heart. It's a lot easier when in

the middle of the night when you're

already kind of in that awake

uh dream state, if you will. Um it's

just a an easier doorway.

>> Do you do this in the middle of the

night? when I was uh going through the

spiritual the university of spiritual

healing and sufism was the name of the

school that I went to. I was it was a

pra it was a recommended practice and I

was getting up in the middle of the

night around 3 or 4 and I would do an

hour or two of meditation.

>> An hour or two in the Wow.

>> Oh yeah. I would sometimes four hours.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Now how did Would you wake up naturally

or would you do something? No, I would.

In the beginning, it's hard, right? You

know, there's a whole

there's poetry about this like Roomie

talks about this, right? Room is a Sufi

poet and some of his books in the

background here. He talks about the

magic of being up in the night in his

poetry. And don't miss a night, you

know. Yes. Get up. And it's hard like in

the beginning you've you're really

tired. you're groggy. It's the last

thing you want to do, right? And so

there's a little bit of discipline to

it. And then you get up and you're kind

of like nodding off and you're, you

know, it's like a practice to learn how

to do this. And then you do it another

night and it gets a little bit easier.

Kind of like your hund Sundays.

[laughter]

So it gets a little bit easier. And then

you add add a week. Now you're into it a

month. Now it's a habit. And now it can

get to a point where you can't wait to

get up because you know what's waiting

for you.

>> You know the experience that's waiting

for you. You know the feeling. You know

how it sets your whole day. The days are

different. Um the way you're you're

you're you're establishing this sort of

flow to your spirit for the day. I mean

just like when you work out and you

don't work out or when you eat junk food

or you eat a clean meal. You know the

difference. This is like eating like

high spiritual nutrition,

sitting with yourself, struggling with

your ego, getting past that, getting

into the magic of the heart, getting

into the soul space, which is very these

are like mystical

type of experiences without plant

medicine. It's like having those types

of experiences where you're seeing

visuals and you're sensing things

rippling out and you're getting lost in

these beautiful spiritual worlds and

traveling and then studying with my Sufi

teacher, he provided a road map. It's

like how do you know where you are? How

do you know when you're in the

commanding ego? How do you know when

you're in the inspired self? How do you

know when you're in the blaming self?

How do you and and there's like

indicators of where you are? And this is

what you'll experience. This is the

types of thoughts that you'll have. This

is the types of reactions that you'll

have. This is what the the the fragrance

of this state. And there's a difference

in Sufism between a state and a station.

A state is something that you visit that

you have an experience and it wears off.

A station is when you've actually

established yourself in that state and

it doesn't wear off. You live there.

>> And I mean that's high level stuff, you

know? I I mean like I'm still working on

states.

>> Yeah. Sufism as where can you tell me

just briefly for someone that's never

heard of it, what are what is that?

>> It's so uh

each religion has a mystical path to it.

Christianity has the Christiannostics. J

Judaism has the Cabala. Islam has

Sufism. Although Sufism can stand on its

own without being attached to to the

practice of Islam, but um it comes from

that part of the world. Comes comes from

Persia like that part of the world.

>> And there's a lot of different types of

Sufis. There's some uh Tariq's

communities, Sufi communities that do

the the whirling dervish and they're

spinners.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And you see them spinning and they're

hitting like realizations through that

practice of spinning through whirling.

Wow. It's like a dance. It's like a

trance.

>> Um the the path that I am on is the

Shadalia Sufi which was um my teacher

was Sidi Si. He uh lived in Jerusalem

and the path was passed down by his

teacher. It's a teacher to student,

teacher to student, teacher to student.

It goes back thousands of years and it

was passed down to him and he passed it

down to all his students and he set up a

school here in North America that I went

to. Um it was an international school so

people from all over the world came here

uh to teach this path. And so it's it's

a path of effort getting up in the

middle of the night. Um there was a

practice that he called one-third your

belly. It's very important. So putting

in one-third food, one-third water,

one-third air, not overeating, not over

drinking, not you know everything was

there was a balance to the path. And

then there's parts of study is to really

understand not just the tasting and the

witnessing but understanding where your

spirit is. What is it tasting? What is

it witnessing? Where are you? Um and the

only way to do that was through practice

like I have to practice meditating. And

there was uh there was chanting involved

is was a form of meditation. There was

silent meditations. There's a lot of

varying ways to access the heart. Um,

and you know, a lot of it too was taking

accountability for your life, like to be

a trutht teller, to um, I mean, I I love

what you did in your retreats to tell on

yourself,

>> you know, and that like

>> um, what's going on, dude? [laughter]

You know,

>> like what's going on, you know? So, were

you living on this campus? Was this like

a residential thing?

>> Uh, on and off. So, I would go there for

for a week week, two weeks at a time

once a quarter and then there was remote

learning in between. But then it was

like a retreat center really. Okay.

>> And then I would go up though on my own

in between for like a month at a time.

And that's where I would be up in the

middle of the night every day in silence

meditating 10 to 12 hours a day um

studying the teachings uh doing all the

practices the different prayers

and you just enter into you don't

realize it when you're there you realize

it when you leave

>> like [snorts] when I would go to the

airport from the when I was coming back

home

>> it's always

>> I was just like what is going on

[laughter]

it's so loud, you know, and you start to

have this ability to like feel things

very deeply and you can feel into

people, the energy of people and like

what they're putting off and it was

almost like when I would leave that's

when it was heightened the most. I could

almost like read people's energy and I

was like the sometimes it was really

sad, you know, and and um there was a

lot of broken hearts in the world, a lot

of people suffering in silence and not

saying it, but you can feel it.

>> You can sense it. You can you can be

with it. And it wasn't my place to say

anything or do anything. I just would

would send him love, you know, and move

on my way. But um when I would come back

out of those retreats,

uh people who would see me uh knew that

I was going and they they always loved

when I would come back because it was

just like you're glowing.

>> You're just like your eyes are

different. They're softer. Your whole

heart is like open and exquisite and

gentle and sweet and kind not not weak

but just strong in the sense of love and

compassion and mercy and and offering

that to people because you're offering

it to yourself and it's like rippling

out that you've done some work that you

sat with places inside yourself that

hadn't seen light in a while. You open

up those doors that were a little dark

and you let some air in and like that's

so it was a path of healing as much as

it was about becoming realized like

that's how you become realized is you

have to bring those parts that are maybe

not um that you're conscious of maybe

that you're not aware of bringing love

and gentleness like we're so hard like

listen to people's selft talk people

telling themselves all the time by

listen to what they say. [laughter]

>> Did you hear the kid at the playground

yesterday?

>> I didn't hear

>> the one that joined us for some

pull-ups.

>> What did he

>> He just kept screaming about how weak he

was and I was like, "Is this for real?"

Like,

>> "Yeah." Yeah.

>> I mean, and it's, you know, it kind of

reminded me of like the difference in

the reality uh that Deina is growing up

in. If I heard Deina say something like

that, be like, "Wait a minute. Wait a

minute. We need to have a let's have a

talk about what you just said."

>> So, he just told on himself. He just

kept telling on it. And I know I think

we were helping. That's why I was like,

I'm gonna help you do some pull-ups.

You're telling yourself

>> and but where did that voice come from?

>> Who told him that? Where did he where

did he attached to that identity? Where,

you know, where did that start? He

wasn't a old He was

>> He's quite young. He looked like about

like nine or 10 years old yesterday.

>> So why is a 10-year-old walking around

believing that he's weak?

>> So weak. and almost like and it's a

great metaphor telling because he was

saying it so loud and proud it almost

did sound like

>> he was looking for help

>> possibly but that's also like um where

where did that get picked up that idea

that narrative that um I mean and if you

sit with people they'll even tell you

where it started if you ask if you ask

good enough questions

and you can become come like a

detective. It's like if they're open to

it, you know, there's no

I I I never

respect people's boundaries and stuff

like that, but someone wants to have a

conversation, a healing conversation. I

always I just become curious without

judgment. Why you feel that way? Where

where did that come from? Where did that

start? And that's the journey in. Now we

have to go in. Yeah. Where did it

because a lot of times we're not even

aware of it. I don't know. I hear that a

lot. I don't know. And I'll peel the

back. And so where do you feel it in

your body? Right. Where does it start

there? Well, I feel it in my belly.

Okay. And then you become an

investigator and you start like

following the breadcrumbs and you can

eventually get back to an original hurt

or an original trauma or something of

where it started. And by bringing in

light and awareness and love into that,

it can create a um a real healing for

that person and change the whole

narrative around the idea of weakness or

the idea of I'm not worthy or the idea

that um whatever whatever statement it

is um that's not a statement from

truth.

>> I am curious on you mentioned 100

Sundays. That's a pretty clear itinerary

what we're doing. We're going to the

playground at 1:00 p.m. on Sundays. 100

pull-ups and 100 push-ups. Do you have a

structured itinerary for your

meditations currently or how does that

work?

>> I have a foundation. Yeah. That I've

been doing for 20 years. And so there's

daily prayers. Um there I I typically

start my day with some form of a

reflection meditation. And there's a

there's a lot of meditations that

different kinds that I do. I've even

incorporated new ones. Uh like I'm a big

fan of Joe Despensza. I like his work.

Uh I might listen to one of his

meditations just to kind of change it

up. Or I may do a Sufi meditation or I

may do some chanting or I may do a

silent remembrance practice or um or it

might be honestly a walk with my wife in

a really deep conversation. that could

feel meditative because I'm gnawing on

something and I want to process with her

and she'll help me or will find some

resolution in that conversation that

helps ease tension in my body. Um but

yeah, typically every day um I'm

listening

um collecting data on myself just my

current reality. How are you doing

today, buddy? You doing okay? Did you

sleep okay? Are you feeling a little um

off today? Are you feeling happy? You

feeling sad? What's up? You know, just

like checking in, becoming my own best

friend. And um and so from that report,

I'll I'll I'll assess what I need in

that. Do we need exercise today? Do we

need movement? Do we need reflection? Do

we need to talk to Julie about

something? Do we need, you know, from

there, I'll have sort of a plan of how I

want to tackle the day. But in addition

to that, there's sort of built-in

prayers that I do throughout the day as

well.

>> Does that mean like you get on your

knees in your room and pray or?

>> Yeah, there's a there's a whole Sufi

prayer that's structured

>> that I follow. Takes two or three

minutes to do.

>> It's like bathing in spring water that

is like blessed by the just like a

washing. I feel washed. I feel cleansed.

I feel like ah just a break in from from

myself. and an ability to like step back

into divine consciousness.

>> It's just a good sort of reminder. It

takes a couple of minutes spread out

through the day.

>> Well, and then where did the Sufi school

come in from when you got ill and like

what catalyzed this idea of going to a

Sufi school? [laughter]

>> That's a You're a good interviewer.

That's a great question. Um I came to

California because I wanted to live a

big life.

I got here and I found a lot of the

things that I was looking for, including

a California girl and I because I wanted

a relationship. I I felt like I was

going to meet a Cali girl.

>> Okay.

>> I I don't know. I felt like love was

waiting for me here and uh and it and it

was really fun and exciting and I was

just really in love with this person.

She ended the relationship and it broke

my heart and it in a way that I hadn't

felt really before. And I was also, I

think, at a place where I didn't want to

lean into a lot of the coping strategies

that I had to that point, whether that's

turning to alcohol, turning into cheap

sex, turning towards um, you know,

whatever the strategies were, [snorts]

they weren't working. And I knew that.

And I knew they were bad ideas, but I

didn't know how to feel better because I

was just in this sadness.

And I realized that I was really bad at

love. So maybe there's something around

that that I could learn. Who are the

teachers, the facilitators that are in

the space of love that could show me

about it? I could learn. Who are the

healers that I could heal this pain that

I felt? I didn't know where to find them

yet, but I would go to like the

bookstore and I would start go to the

self-help aisle, the spiritual aisle.

I'd start just just going through books,

reading and reading and reading. And

what I would find in some of those books

were just like

beautiful words around what it felt like

to feel peace and this this sort of

enlightenment, if you will. I was like

fascinated by that word. What does that

mean? What's that like? How do I feel

that way? How who knows how to do that?

Who could teach me that like on a deep

level? Because I I'm not tasting it, but

they're interesting, profound ideas. So,

I had that as an idea, a thought was

like, I want to taste the what's in

these books. I want to taste these words

and for real, whatever it takes, I want

to do it. So, that was like my

intention. And be before I started my

business for about six months I was a

teacher and at this school I was sharing

with a colleague of mine kind of hey I'm

just going through a hard time a

personal level she said she had a friend

who was a Sufi healer

>> and when it came to matters of the heart

she's exceptional. You should talk to

her. So dude what's her number?

[laughter]

I'm I'm I'm desperate for help. Sure. I

don't know what the hell this is, but

yeah, if she can help, let's find out.

>> I met this person. She was a very

unassuming. She didn't look like the

Dollaly Lama, right? Just she was a a

grandmother in Escandido. [laughter]

>> And like, you know, just worked at

worked in the um supplement aisle at

Jimbo, right? And so

just you know who among us are out there

you know and so I sat down and this was

a time where I I really was not

comfortable like sharing or exposing

myself or being vulnerable. I didn't

even know what that was or how to even

do that. like like I was tight, like

really tight, locked up and um and uh as

a young man.

>> And so for whatever reason, she held

this incredible space where I just could

disclose myself, what I was going

through, the pain that I was

experiencing. I just had to talk. So I

let it rip. And [clears throat] she

didn't judge me. She just was like this

this this angel in my life. And she

listened. She really listened to me. And

uh when I was finished speaking, she

said, "I think I could help. And I want

to teach you about Sufi meditation.

They are the experts when it comes to

love. That's what they're all about.

That's this core central to their

teachings is love. And you want to learn

about love. You got to experience what

it's like to feel love. to feel it in

yourself, to feel your heart, to feel it

open. I said, "Please show me this." And

so she taught me it and uh the first

session was okay. It was like kind of

felt calm and relaxed. And the second

session was a little bit more of that,

you know, maybe like 2x of that. And

then the third session

was that changed my life.

I had an experience for the first time

in my life. I think I was 25 or 26. It

was in my mid20s

where I felt something open in me where

I was not on drugs that felt like I was

and it was just this psychedelic

experience, but it felt so uh ex I was

ecstatic and bliss and like the walls

that I the barriers that I had so

tightly up to keep everything out.

finally crumbled and I felt something so

exquisitely beautiful. For the first

time, I felt what it was like to be in

my heart. And I was just gone in that

tasting.

Completely gone. I was not in my normal

mental analytical mind. I was not in my

normal senses of self. I was just in

this bewilderment of this spiritual

ecstatic

blissed out experience.

And um the Oddly, she would do these

sessions over the phone. Just wasn't

even in person. She'd do them over the

phone for whatever reason. She liked to

do it that way. But so I'm laying on my

bed with my earphones in. And uh and I

finally realized I think we're

disconnected.

I think I heard silence on the other end

of the phone. So I I call her back. I

said, "I think we got disconnected."

She's like, "No, I hung up 45 minutes

ago. You were so in where you needed to

be. I didn't want to disturb you. I

said, "What?

Who are you? What? What did you What

happened to me? Where did I go?" This

started my journey. It was so profound

that it was the tasting I was looking

for. And I said, "Who taught you how to

do? Can you first of all, can you show

me more of this? I want to live like

that." And it wore off after a few hours

of the like being totally blissed out.

It eventually wore off, but it was it

planted such a deep seed in me that I

wanted to to to nurture that seed and

water it. I like who taught you this?

Where does this come from? And and she

said, I went to this school and I

learned about it and this was my Sufi

teacher and he's teaching about it. And

so I immediately um went in, you know,

like started hanging out with their

community and learning from them and

eventually enrolled into the school and

just my life took off and I became a a

devout student of this work. I healed

the broken heart

>> uh through it wasn't overnight, but it

happened over several years, but I was

finding myself at the same time. And at

the end of that experience, I met my

wife. I met the like the real

relationship for me, like the one that

and it and and she

I would not have gone for a person like

Julie when I was younger. Like my

attraction changed.

>> What I was interested in changed. I

wanted something so much more profound,

so much more deep with integrity and

values that we could grow together

spiritually, emotionally, uh physically

on all levels. Sex uh our sex life and

having that be at a high level. um our

our our um the way we grow through

challenges, the way we talk to each

other, the way we resolve conflicts in

the marriage, the way we are with

partners, the way that we got this

clarity around vision and what we want

to create a life together. Um that all

came through a lot of maturity on my

end, growing spiritually and

emotionally.

um growing my integ like if I'm being

honest like I feel like my the bar of

integrity in my life at that point is

really low. Like it made me sick to want

to tell lies, to want to um do things

that were outside of my values um that

felt morally or consciously wrong. Um

because I like started to taste and feel

what it felt like to live at a way that

was in such alignment. I didn't want to

break that alignment. And um but I did

that on my own at first. I built a

foundation and a base that was in myself

that was sturdy that I could lean into

that was and I couldn't at first. I had

to like build these stories, this house.

And uh when I felt really strong, that's

when I um found my partner. And she was

doing the same work. She was on her path

>> at the same school.

>> The same school. She was working on

herself. She came to that school. She

has her own story of how she showed up.

>> Wow.

>> And um and she was working on her own.

She had her own inner journey. So we met

in the middle, you know, it wasn't like

a codependency thing. It wasn't still to

this day we have a a very strong healthy

attachment and uh you know we work on

it. It's not perfect you know we have

arguments we have fights we have

challenges and differences and um all

kinds of things you know especially now

becoming parents there's Julie had to go

through postpartum and that was watching

her hormones be um really out of balance

through the you know as all women go

through. Um, and like how to hold space

for that and like there's new things

that she needs from me and there's we're

growing now. There's new chapters that

are that are evolving currently.

Um, but that's what we set up back then

was we wanted to grow together at all

cost,

>> man.

>> So that's how I found Sufism. [laughter]

A little longwinded. Well, I'm um

what like you have just such it's like

such chapters. Sounds like you have a

book coming so many chapters of your

life.

>> A lot

>> a lot but everyone does

>> when I am like to circle it even back

more in the beginning when you did you

have a plan when you came to San Diego

did you have a house to stay at? Did you

have friends or what were you

>> I knew one person. My plan was just to

get there. Okay.

>> That was the plan. [laughter] I wasn't

good at plans back then. Like I I uh

if I I had this sense in me uh after I

graduated college that if I didn't do

something now, I might end up never

escaping this small town

>> because that was the story of a lot of

people around me.

>> Did you have a college in that town too?

>> Uh not far away. Okay. Like

>> what was the town?

>> Uh East Hatam, Connecticut. All my which

is a lovely town by the way. I I

actually enjoy going there now in life

and my mom still has a farm there and

>> we visit quite often. It's a beautiful

place to raise a family and there's good

people that live there. Um

as a young person though as a teenager

and and

you know someone who's 21, it wasn't

very exciting for me and I just wanted

to see more of the world. I had never

traveled. I never up to that point I

never really been anywhere.

>> And um so that was the motivation was to

just get out and um and I made a when I

was in college, I came out to San Diego

on a spring break trip and that was like

I made a made a mental note. [laughter]

I was like funny that

>> this place is pretty rad. I want to get

back out here. [laughter] I think I

remember being at PB once and it was

like spring break. We weren't there for

spring break but it was that was a

little out of control if I remember. I

don't know if it was PB or Witch Beach

but it was like a whole [snorts]

different scene. San Diego has so many

different

>> No, it was it was you know PB as a

21-year-old's a fun place.

>> Yeah, that's what I remember.

>> And so uh that made a very strong

impression for me. Um and uh so I made a

I made a mental note like get back here.

And so I mean actually it's kind of a

funny story is um another friend of mine

uh we were planning to come out together

and uh we were getting ready like I

didn't even have a car that would have

made it like my car was on its last

legs. I left that thing behind but his

car would have made it and I was like

and it would have been fun to go

together to have an ally in this journey

right and to go across the country and

see the country. It would have been fun.

And um he got cold feet like a couple

weeks before we were supposed to leave.

He bailed on it. And I was like,

I don't know what I'm going to do, man.

I screw it. And I And I had one friend

that I knew that lived out here and he's

like, I have a room for rent, but you

need you need to be here now. And I'm

like, done. Booked a oneway ticket

>> because he wants to rent like it'll go

fast kind of thing.

>> Yeah. Mean like you said you want to

come. Yeah. Nice.

>> All right, man. I got a space.

>> I like this friend here in San Diego.

[laughter]

>> And uh and uh so I'm like done. And I um

I went online and and booked a ticket

and just backpacked my clothes and left.

And I got had that room. So that's all I

had out here was a room and a house. So

I started he let he lent me his beach

cruiser. That was my transportation.

There was a bike in the garage I could

use to get around. Well, now I'm sure

people are also going to be curious. How

did you make the leap of like, okay, now

you're here and now San Diego has a cost

of living that I want to figure out how

to take care of. And you you kind of

like briefly mentioned earlier that you

know you were good at working with

autistic children. I'm like I don't know

many people that go into

>> there's actually there's a breaking

normal chapter that we didn't discover

that we didn't talk about yet. So

>> when I first came out here again, yeah,

you're right. I had very little money

and like how am I going to pay rent and

stuff and so um and it was getting

pretty desperate like I need to I need

income like today because rent's due in

like eight days and I don't know what

I'm going to do.

>> And so um I answered an ad in the reader

at the time like before like social

media got going. as the reader and it

said um just like a sales job. And so I

went and and to this warehouse looking

place and I met the guy. He's like,

"Yeah, if you I" So I ended up selling

art out of the trunk of my car.

>> So

>> his art he had a warehouse full of like

framed art and he's like, "Yeah, if

whatever you sell today, I will pay you

at the end of the day." I'm like, "Done.

You'll pay me today." I'm like done. So

I filled my car up. Uh so I actually um

I should back up. So I bought a car.

That was the first thing I like after

like a month or two being here. I'm like

I need a car. So I bought finally bought

a car. And then that was like all my

money is gone now. You know, whatever I

had was pretty much went into the car.

So I had a car. And then he's like, "Uh

yeah, sell art." And so I filled my car

up with his framed artwork. I don't

know. I'm looking around find just like,

you know what I mean? Like Picassos and

Van Go, prints that are framed.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> And um I literally loaded up my trunk

and uh I'm like, "What am I doing? What

did I get myself into?" Drove out of the

parking lot and I'm like, he says, "Just

go sell it." [laughter]

So I like got on the five freeway and

I'm like, "What am I doing, man? This is

crazy." And I just was like I got off an

exit and then I pulled into a strip

mall,

I opened the trunk and I started selling

it and people walking by. I went into

like nail salons where where women were

getting their nails done and I would do

like an art show like hey I'm selling

this. You know I had a whole pitch and

everything. That's where I learned

entrepreneurship. You want to talk about

like a very very people just telling you

no all day long. rejection, rejection,

rejection. And so I ended up selling a

few hundred dollars of art that day. I

came back, I had no idea if it was good.

I came back

>> and he's like, "What? How many?"

Whatever it was, a dozen pieces. That's

unbelievable. Like usually people don't

even like they turn around in a half

hour and come back and leave because

they because it's so hard or they don't

sell anything like you sold it. How? And

I'm like, "Is that good?" He's like,

"That's amazing.

and like, "Come back tomorrow." And I'm

like, "Okay." You know, this is a couple

hundred bucks. Maybe I could do that

tomorrow. I ended up um crushing that

job for like almost like 10 months or

something.

>> And where where the uh the turnover and

that's probably like people don't last a

day.

>> And I learned about how to build trust

with people very quickly within minutes.

uh transactions in the parking lot, you

know, making transactions like building

like confidence that like wow

>> like you were taking cash only or like

>> credit cards check.

>> He had like a little vending thing.

>> Yeah, little thing.

>> Okay. [laughter] Wow.

>> You give me their credit cards. I talk

about breaking normal.

>> Did you have a sign like this is

[snorts] today's art show or like how or

you were just literally like what kind

of car were you in?

>> I had charisma, man. I built charisma. I

didn't have it at first, but I started

to build like

>> to be uh like fun to be that, you know,

to like uh go up to strangers and talk

to I was that guy. I could go I went

down to the beach and sold art at the

beach.

>> Um sold it everywhere and and I figured

out strategy eventually. So, one of the

things was I would see these new

developments going in and people moving

in and like there's no art on those

walls. So, I'd go to their doors and I'd

be like, "Hey, you know, I had a whole

pitch. I'm clearing out art for 70% off

and I noticed he just moved in. I have

art, right?" "Oh, show me what you

have." Yes, we don't have any. And I,

you know, sell a bunch. Like, I was like

for periods of time the number one

salesperson in the entire company.

[laughter]

>> Like they had uh spots all over the c

like the New York one, the Miami,

Chicago. We were like the San Diego

branch. The guy wanted me to open up my

own branch at one point. He's like,

"Become a" And I was into it. I was

like, "That's actually where I met the

girl that broke my art was at selling

art."

>> Oh, like you

>> She gave him that job.

>> Was she working or someone you were?

>> She was someone I trained.

>> Oh. Oh, wow.

>> She She got a job. She was really good

at it, too. And um it was kind of a it

was it was really a hip fun like vibe.

There was a bunch of young people. There

was like a clubhouse there. At the end

of the day we'd shoot pool and you know

drink and smoke or whatever. And um you

know it was like I didn't have any

friends when I came out here. So it was

like I built this community of people.

We were all like pirates and bandits,

you know, just like like you know, just

like

>> Where was the warehouse you yall were

hanging out at? Which part of San Diego?

>> Uh the Srano Valley.

>> Okay. Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> And what kind of vehicle did you buy?

>> I bought a Mitsubishi Gla. It was like a

four-door.

>> Okay.

>> So, like I packed the trunk full of this

stuff. The back seat would be I have

pictures, dude, of me selling.

>> I would like [laughter] to see some of

>> I'll show I'll show you some of Yeah.

After we'll show you some pictures.

um

you wouldn't like like I was a kind of a

a shy introverted guy to that point and

it brought out a whole new personality

in me like where I became I learned how

to become extroverted. I learned how to

like handle very awkward situations. I

learned how to like be with silence when

people were like I learned how to close

deals.

I learned I learned tactics like uh

people be thinking it over like the

first first person to speak loses you

know in those situations. I learned how

to just be silent in the awkwardness and

wait till they speak you know or I learn

and I through failure I would speak too

fast and then they would it would end

the momentum of the deal and they would

walk away or something. So it was like a

lot of skills that I developed. So when

I did start my company, I [sighs] h I

had unbelievable confidence that I could

talk to literally anybody.

>> So when I was delivering um uh you know

trying to hire people or selling my

company's service to families, I would

sit in living rooms and I would just I I

was so good at selling. Um like I drew

those skills from the art experience

into uh building the healthcare company.

And um I was really like like that was

helpful like if I didn't have that

experience I don't know how

I don't know how the other company would

have you know what I mean like they lend

into each other just like Rob Ros

>> is is leaning into

>> tribe tribe vitamins you know it's kind

of like they build on each other

>> for sure [snorts] and what made the leap

though from the art fiasco

>> I got burned there just you know 100%

commission based jobs like I got burned

on it where I'm just like oh if I don't

make any money today I don't

>> I could work eight hours 10 hours and

not make anything

>> you know and and I would usually sell

something every day I mean some days

maybe one or two pieces would be a bad

day but it was just that like it was a

grueling grueling job and uh I just

wanted something different so that's

where I for six months decided to become

a teacher teacher. So, I went from art

uh selling art out of the trunk of my

car to getting a a teaching job,

>> like a school teacher.

>> School teacher. Yeah. I was in a special

needs school.

>> Okay.

>> I was actually a a teacher's aid.

>> Okay.

>> In a special needs school.

>> And uh and then at that school is really

where I got the idea of like I'm going

to start my own thing and and work with

children like this. But I had a

background already from um my upbringing

and my college degree and stuff and

working with children with autism. And

uh and then when I worked at that

school, I was like, I think I can do

this on my own. I'm gonna I'm gonna

figure out how to do this. And so uh I

quit that job. We put a website up. we

started getting the phone started

ringing and started enrolling um

families into our programs and it was

just kind of got off and going and uh

but I had to have like a second job uh

in the evenings to keep you know to pay

the bills to work on my business. That's

kind of how I did it. So, I left the

teaching job for a evening position uh

where I was a livein roommate for

somebody with uh autism.

So, that was like uh that was from like

1000 p.m. to 10:00 a.m.

>> But I could sleep. They allowed me to

sleep, but that was like 12 hours a day.

I got paid for those 12 hours.

>> Uh and then I would work. So, I had my

whole day free and that's where I

worked. That's why I was telling you I

was working 8000 hour weeks. Like I had

a lot going on during that time.

Startup's no joke as you as you know

it's hard.

>> How long was that stent from starting

that business to selling it?

>> 2005 to 2018.

>> Wow.

>> 13 years.

>> That sounds like a big chapter to you.

>> The first five and six years of that

were very very hard. The upstart I did

not find success until about six years

in. In fact, you can even ask Julie when

you see her next. Um, at about year four

or five,

uh, we I got together with Julie and um,

and she was like, "You're working so

hard, Matt, for so little. Why are you

doing this? Why are you keep Why don't

you do something else?" [laughter]

And I'm like, "Because I burned the

boats. I'm either taking the island or

that's it." you know, it's either easier

I do this or I die trying because I

wanted to be my own boss so bad and I

wanted to do something and it felt good.

Doing something that really mattered

felt good on my soul and I'm just I've

just got to figure it out. I haven't

figured it out yet.

And [snorts] then like a year or two

later, we broke we finally broke through

and uh that's when we that's when I

started to really become uh financially

successful and her life changed, our

life changed, started buying real estate

and all that stuff. [snorts] So

I often ask her like, "What do you think

about it now?" [laughter]

>> Yeah. I'm wondering if you

[clears throat] have any words of wisdom

for [snorts] someone that feels like

like they're get like, "Hey, it's been

five years and like what's going on?"

>> You got to get real. You got to be real

about your why, man. Like if you don't

have that on board, like if you don't

really don't know why you're doing it,

like your purpose, like and you might it

that's where it gets that's where it uh

gets fuzzy. And like um my why was so

dang strong. It just propelled me

through a lot of those lean tough years.

Um because it still was a driver. I

could still feel the purpose of it.

>> The why and what was your why?

>> My why at that time was to be my own

boss, do something that mattered and to

learn about finances, to learn how money

works. Those were like my three things

that I was trying to conquer.

>> And entrepreneurship was was how I was

going to do it. I was going to do it as

an entrepreneur. I I I just did not feel

called to be uh an employee or to work

for someone else.

>> Unemployable. [snorts]

I once had a shirt that that was what it

said on the back, but I lost it.

[laughter] I loved that shirt. I was

like unemployable. I love this. Like

unemployable.com.

>> I don't think I'm a great And I wasn't a

great employee. Like I I when I had that

teaching job, I wasn't I wasn't really

passionate about it. I you know, just I

don't think I'm that good of an