Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,

where we revisit past episodes for the

most potent and actionable science-based

tools for mental health, physical

health, and performance.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stamford School of Medicine. And now for

my discussion with Ido Portal. Ido,

thank you for coming here today. Over

the years, we've been in communication

and I've come to realize that you're a

true intellectual of the topic of

movement. And I define an intellectual

as somebody who can understand a topic

at multiple levels of granularity. To

start off, could you inform us how

people should think about approaching a

movement practice?

What is the first layer of any good

movement practice?

>> It's an open system. It has no center.

It's decentralized and it can be

approached from anywhere. And uh that's

its magic and that's that's the benefit

of it. Some people uh find the body a

good entry point and then playfulness

can be an entry point an attribute or

and this is so open. So I I don't want

to limit uh people and limit their minds

in the way that they engage with a

practice but I also want to encourage

the self inquiry. So when people enter

movement practice, it is about

education, bringing some awareness to

the fact that they are living in a body

that they are living in motion that

their mind is a type of movement that

their life is a type of movement. Uh

bringing attention to the movement of

the emotions as well. Bringing just

attention to the fact that things are in

motion. And this for me is the movement

practice is is this examination and

bringing this awareness into things. As

we sit now here, I'm also aware of my

body. I'm also aware of the way that

things make me feel, the way that your

face is communicating to me. And and I'm

not just in some limited overly verbal

state because it misses a lot of the

beautiful flux. actually in anticipation

of you arriving here today. I noticed

that as I was going up and down the

stairs in this in this house um that I

was injecting a little bit of

playfulness in the way that I might have

many many decades ago but haven't for a

very long time. And I asked myself

whether or not that's what Eido is

referring to as opposed to but of course

not exclusive from just saying I have 45

minutes. I'm going to do movement

practice before I shower and have some

dinner. Could you share with us just

some ideas to get people thinking about

or maybe even incorporating movement

practice into their day and maybe even

touch on the the potential role of play

or playfulness?

>> One thing is this what you call

wordlessness. I I have been recommending

to people nonverbal experiences. The

awareness of motion is a very good way

to start to to bring awareness to that

layer. And that layer will start to get

clarified more and more and more the

more you practice. And then it will

enable for most people a safe haven away

from many states and difficulties and

will unlock a lot of potential

uh attributes and strengths and

freshness and a lot of beautiful things.

Really uh one of the pretty perspectives

about who we are comes from person who

influenced my thinking a lot Moshe

Feldon Christ the late Moshefeldon

Christ and he talks about the body as

the core three elements the core nervous

system two is the mechanical system of

muscle skeleton etc. And the third is

the environment which is a unique way to

look at it. And he talks about how the

nervous system is both get receiving

information from the outside and from

the inside. And in the first years of

life, you work a lot on differentiating

those what am what is me and what is not

me. And I think when you feel movement,

you feel the movement of the outside

that is of course arriving to you and

receiving this and also your own

internal movement. And the same can be

said for stillness.

So bringing the attention into those

layers, it's a tricky thing. It's one of

those elusive things to look at, but

it's definitely of huge benefit to start

to train it, start to practice it, to

feel not our thoughts, not necessarily

our body, but to start to recognize the

dynamic nature, the flux, the motion,

and it occurs in all these layers. You

will need to find it in multiple

occasions before you start to more and

more make it your own. make it really

yours. For example, simple pragmatic

things. I used to do this. I spent some

time in Hong Kong. I would uh need to

get my practice in, but

I'm I'm really turned off from

commercial gyms and there is not a lot

of nature accessible there. So, I would

just strap on my bag and I would walk

the streets of Hong Kong, which are very

crowded. And then I would try to avoid

touching anyone. And it would be like

two hours of of just like mov involved

fully involved fully in my body and

experiencing beautiful things and

enjoying and developing myself as well.

So this is an example of a a way to to

practice and then the way that we're

sitting like these chairs for example

our chairs are not very dynamic but

there is rocking chairs right and this

is something I recommend for a lot of

kids like in schools I used to rock on

the chair which is very common. I would

make the chairs even more mobile

and I would support more motion and then

I would be able to bring attention

there. But I would also be able to bring

attention away from it into other things

and it keeps refreshing me. So I don't

become stale. The water doesn't stand.

This is the beauty of of movement. So

you can focus for long periods of time

and do incredible things with the mind,

with focus, with awareness, attention.

Um and it's with skin in the game. So

that's how movement keeps me very honest

and humble in the way that I view

humility and and in a way that protects

me and and keeps me yeah keeps me

fresh. What are the different domains of

movement practice? And as I asked this,

I realized I I am in serious danger of

fractionating movement into a list of

words like strength and speed and

explosiveness and uh suppleness, a word

that I've heard you use before. And yet

I think for most people because we think

in words often some of those categories

can be useful. So let's say I was going

to embark on a movement practice or a

child was going to embark on a movement

practice and either throughout the day

or for a dedicated period of time. What

are the sorts of categories of movement

that I might want to think about?

Ballistic movement, smooth movement.

Maybe you could uh just enrich us with

some of the uh some of the landscape

around that. One thing that does seem to

to to

appear for me when I look around is this

the concepts of unique postures.

Uh and I think this is true for postures

of thought, emotional postures and

movement postures. You take someone who

moves in a certain way and you teach him

all these new sports or techniques, but

essentially if you look deeply and

you're sensitive, you see it's the same

postures that he will have to work with

till the end of his life, the same

thinking postures. And this this is

really problematic

where we are

we are not freeing the mind beyond this

uh scaffolding of thinking and we are

actually letting go of the content. We

we we get more and more focused on the

the way of thinking versus the thinking

itself or or habitual ways and forms of

thinking associative thinking etc.

And emotionally the same we are

constructing these emotional postures

and then we have to go through the rest

of our lives working with that. So this

is the dark side. But of course there

are always possibilities um both I think

invading this early system to some

extent even if it's 5% or 7% or whatever

percent. and also on the freeing

yourself of going beyond all postures

period

working with the postures you have but

towards a postureless

way of doing things. So this is

something interesting uh to work when

you when people work with movements but

finally are able to go into movement and

this magic starts to happen and then the

techniques fall apart and something

appears

um and and it's a phase change.

>> It's it's a binary moment. There is a

jump there for sure and it's very rare

to see both in thinking and emotionally

and and other ways. We have many names

for it and some talk about enlightenment

and some talk about all kinds of

processes related to it and I think most

of them are

shadows of the sun but it's not the sun

itself really. Yeah, those that

exploration of degrees of freedom is

where the opportunity for um uh real

advancement and expansion of skill shows

up. As I think the way it's been

described to me is that we go from

unskilled to skilled and then there's

mastery and then there's this top tier

which is this beautiful thin layer that

so few people occupy which is virtuosity

in which the practitioner invites

variability and chance back in as an

opportunity to do truly new things. As

long as you're not out of this sleeve,

you're still within the boundaries of

achieving the result that you're after.

And then there there is all this

adaptation of all these elements inside

to keep you in the sleeve. The sleeve is

not constricted as we once thought. Oh,

beautiful technique. There are many ways

to skin a cat. Um and and that

experience and that variety, that

diversity

goes into virtuosity. It's true freedom

because your focus is on the right

thing. You don't point at the moon, look

at your finger and and and that's really

in essence being a virtuoso for for me

like mastery, let's say, if there is

such a thing.

>> I'd like to talk about vision and the

eyes. We have this incredible ability to

adjust the aperture of our visual

window. We can focus very narrowly or we

can focus very broadly. When you begin a

practice or and as you move through a

practice, do you apply a regimented

uh way of focusing your vision? Are you

in panoramic vision? Are you in in a

very narrow field of view? Or does it

entirely depend? And for the person

who's a true beginner, a true novice

like myself, how should I show up to the

practice with my eyes? We do not move

the eyes as well as we think we do

because as long as you can see and move

the eyes, people never think about it

that it can be trained that it can be

improved etc. And the effects of it are

farreaching. The eyes lead to the inner

eye. You can think of it in a beautiful

metaphorical way and it's a

representation of the way that we use

various cognitive and mind processes and

also of course affect the body. For

example, you when when you teach boxers

how to bob, usually it's not done in the

way that I I believe it it should be

done. They teach it from the feet

because they have the idea which is

correct that you'll need to do it in

spatial conditions in movement. But in

reality, the head will organize the feet

for you. Because if I'll pull your head

now to the side, you will immediately

start to organize your feet under you.

That's how I would teach someone

something like this. So, it's a very

powerful way to address movement. Not

the only one. You need to start to have

some kind of a checklist of what you're

looking to do. And then by this, you can

start to tailor the way that you use

your eyes. The same thing I do for

posture. The same thing I do for stance.

The same thing eventually I do for state

and there is different flavors. There is

no correct way to use the eye. Sometimes

it's very peripheral soft open awareness

orientation. Sometimes it's very

focused.

Notice that I'm pulling these two

opposites awareness and focus which is

often put together and confused.

>> And then the eyes are the immediate and

the easiest entry point into that.

Another thing is the placement of the

head and the eyes. Like for example,

when we lower our chin, we seem to to

see better. When we raise the eyebrows,

there is too much exposure of top light

sources. And so people would usually

when looking into the distance will tilt

their their chin in. And in many

scenarios, tilting of the the chin to

the side or placing just like listening

with the ear, placing a certain eye or

dominant eye depending on various

scenarios. And this is all like

information that I can come in

cerebrally and think about and jump my

practice forward instead of just letting

the experience teach me that I'm using

some kind of a thinking process to

improve. And this is not cheating. This

is great.

>> There are two separate clusters of

neurons in the these cranial nerve

nuclei that when eyes are up, it

increases our level of alertness. When

our eyes are down, we go into states of

more calm and quiet. When we are in this

more panoramic soft gaze as um and broad

awareness, big big swaths of visual

field as we say, the neurons that

control that come through a pathway

called magnosellar pathway. In any

event, those neurons are much thicker,

thicker cables. They transmit much

faster. Just like thick uh pipes can

carry more water more quickly. And your

reaction time is four at least four

times what it is in this awareness mode

than it is when you're narrowly focused

on something. When we drive, we're in

this peripheral vision and our reaction

times are much much faster. And I think

what you and I I hope agree on, correct

me if I'm wrong, is that exploring these

different extremes and everything in

between is where the real value is.

Another pragmatic bit here if I can

offer is um

um

since our culture has been more geared

and pushing us towards focus the the

focus use of the eyes and primary

language reading and and

other things we have less opportunities

to work with the more open panoramic

one. So it would be smart to start to

balance things out a bit more. When

you're in nature, you don't look at each

leaf. Everything is moving and you are

kind of immersed in that and then

something attracts your attention. Oh,

it's a bird and you focus and you go

back into the general state, the basic

state which is open awareness. Here we

switch things around. In our modern

culture, we are mostly focused and then

we size daydream which is maybe some

kind of a

some kind of a balancing act that comes

from deep within. I don't know maybe you

can you can share some information about

that but I see that many time people

need to the focus is overly done by far

in our in our lives. Earlier you

mentioned the cone of auditory

attention, the other sense that we can

play with in our practice. Where is your

hearing when you approach your practice?

Another set of parameters to to think

about and to play with and to be aware

of. I have the experience that some

people are

uh better at using this system or that

system and uh and you would be amazed

how differently the same results

seemingly outside results are done by

different practitioners and different

scenarios. This goes into this mutation

and change ideas. All of our culture and

practices and success puts us closer and

closer to each other. So we have the

same opinions everywhere around the

world becoming more and more the same,

less and less different. But the real

hope comes from the different. We have a

difficulty promoting that. Um and so

this is another thing that can be

promoted with the right practices, the

right, for example, I I I I work with

corporates or even worked with

governments before to bring in some of

that freshness with simple habits in the

workday or in the education of children

or in in in companies increasing

productivity.

I don't really give a [ __ ] but I'm

there to give what I view is important.

And what is important maybe increases

productivity. Um, but it's more

important to me that it improves

people's lives who are involved.

Thinking about here, the way that people

use their ears, the way that people use

listening, again, we can talk about

placement of the head and posture. Um,

sometimes angling as well, sharper

angle, chin down. Some people tend to

use the the shape of the ear. Uh, people

with different ears closer or further

out. This is it's if you're very

sensitive and you're looking around, you

would see uh this uh is affecting

people's motion. Even the shape of our

face

like the development of the vocal cords

and speaking will totally change how we

are how we look but how we listen also

will do the same. Uh people will even

make their ears bigger. I mean a lot of

people don't realize that's actually why

we do this is to capture more sound

waves right the localization of sound is

based on a simple brain stem calculation

of interoral time differences. the time

in which something the the brain

intuitively it just knows because it's a

pretty hardwired circuit that if a sound

arrives first to this ear then that ear

that it's likely coming from over here

whereas if it's dead center arrives at

the two at the same time it's um it's

almost you know ridiculously simple when

one hears it no pun intended but um it's

it is uh an incredibly valuable way of

thinking about how the architecture of

the body changes our experience

When I see people walking, I sometimes,

you know, sometimes I think, "Wow, they

really move in a strange way." People

come in different shapes and sizes,

short torsos, long arms, etc. Um, do you

think that if people have a a body type

that facilitates certain kinds of

movement and not others that they should

intentionally try and move in the way

that is right at the edge of the kind of

friction and challenge in order to um

shape new possibilities or do you think

that they should lean into the smooth

execution of what comes most naturally

to them?

Yeah, I think a good practice is to have

many walks. There is a lot of emotional

things related to walk like how I'm

walking into a business meeting or how

I'm walking out of a bad situation.

There is a lot of beautiful things to to

research there practically with

yourself. trying to approach someone

with the chin slightly down, very

linear, very efficient in the

straightest line. Or trying to approach

someone a little bit more rounded from

the side and you and tilting your head

and you will see totally different

results, totally different communication

that happens over people's heads. But if

you're sensitive, you realize that wow,

this opened the door, but it's it's part

of the approach. You can affect that. So

this is um something to play with and to

work with. And then you have of course

body proportions and ways and and we

have all these like technical invasions,

mathematics and trigonometry and

architecture. They invaded our bodies.

They invaded our nervous system. And now

our walk and our physical practices they

look linear and efficient. The path

between two points is a straight line.

It's not. This is biomechanics. It's not

mechanics. Nothing there is

given. This is no gospel. So the walk is

sometimes have to go around or sway from

side to side and there is coiling

uncoiling and there are moving bits and

what about the the coordination of my

breathing with my walk because if I walk

too linearly there is less pumping of

the air naturally in and out so now I

have to forcefully bring it in and out.

I I'm wasteful. And that's why you see

in last years these incredible runners

uh especially in long distance doing

things we never thought

were possible. pronation and and all

kinds of things like our technical

thoughts were

totally

misguided and wrong and and somebody

comes in and does it in some way that is

totally wrong and he he gets results we

could never get and that's that's the

beauty of playfulness experimentation

change being different

>> one of my favorite neuroscientists he's

out of the University of Chicago he said

one of the major jobs of evolution is to

take existing cell types and circuits

and give them new functions. But that

can only be done through the playful

exploration of new possibilities which I

think maps very well to what you're

saying that at the extreme thresholds of

technical execution you know mastery

mastery mastery you you're obviously

performance is very high but the

opportunity for evolution of the sport

or the music or the dance or the

intellectual endeavor is is limited

because you're not introducing

variability in the attempt to get proper

execution.

you're limiting oneself. We are the

biggest improvisers around like that's

that's what made us who we are I think

and this is incredible what what we can

do with it and there is something about

this openness that we humans need to

keep and also maybe something for our

leaders to be more of less specialist

and more in this openness less capable

in this or that way but more capable of

doing the whole thing by the way I think

that scientists get it right it's where

you transmit the knowledge out of the

scientific field because science have

debate and everything you're not so

connected. Of course, this can happen as

well, but then when it goes out and the

the simple person without the experience

takes it more as a gospel, as a fixed

thing and then it was just a report,

>> right? I

>> was just reporting some functions here

and play with it. see what it does for

you. Because with all the greatest

information that I can give, the person

will examine it and it might be not

useful at all for him. This is the

practitioner. Make it your own. Go

practice. Try heat, cold, light,

movement, awareness to this, awareness

to this. And this is up to you to make

it yours. But we don't like to have this

responsibility. No, people prefer to

have the this will work the first time

every time and uh will serve you best

compared to everything else. And and

while there are more reliable tools than

others, in my mind, the more reliable

tools tend to be ones that are grounded

in our innate physiology

um as opposed to some I don't like the

word hack. In fact, I loathe the word

biohack as I we were talking about again

earlier. Um because it the a hack in my

mind is is something that is designed

for one purpose that's used for another.

It's not the most efficient use of that

tool nor is it naturally the best

solution. Whereas biology has some very

good solutions but they don't always

work. Not every time.

>> Earlier today we did a practice in which

um which involved uh invasion uh shall

we say of perpersonal space. we were

close enough together we could touch

one's torsos and we were doing that as

part of this practice and uh you

encouraged me to pay attention to you

know how does it feel to have someone in

your prairie personal space and then

this notion of reactivity I know a lot

of people suffer from anxiety just being

in a face tof face conversation some

people have a lot of anxiety about being

physically close to people whether or

not they know them or not and many

people are reactive they are in that

anticipatory state of something is going

to happen you um talk about that a

little bit more.

>> Touch,

proximity, all these things. Um also

taking very

it it takes a very uh I think limited

place in our lives. People are not

touched and they don't touch enough.

There is certain bubbles of perpersonal

space according to culture, according to

environment, what is right, what is

wrong. And then came all the of course

politically correctness and harassments

and all kinds and this is a problem.

It's a problem to navigate all this

scenario and I think we are there is

definitely this side which is suffering

proximity being able to as you said

remove certain reactivity and to learn

to control that

um that volume control over how reactive

I am and in other scenarios how do I

remove this reactivity altogether is

very important for performance and also

for our lives for clear thinking etc

because everything is moving through us

and is being monitored by us. So

everything has the potential to detract

us from a certain direction of

exploration or and and if you're

reactive, you're a slave and it becomes

worse and worse and worse. Or as for

example, a fighter or a football player

etc has to know what to take, what not

to take. The fact that you can sense

more doesn't mean you should react to

it. the and the practice helps that by

bringing people into these scenarios but

often times disarming them like when we

were working closely today and because

you have a certain background with

boxing or fighting I can tell you

you are missing some kind of a way to be

in that space that is not martial

so you carry a certain tone although

you're a very kind person but often

times you held me without realizing

you're holding me with a lot of strength

for example

and and uh it just it was clear to me

you're not fully aware of what is

unfolding and it's just of course a

question of experience. So to be able to

be in this scenario but do something

else which is not geared towards winning

losing competition or just being able to

play with another person like for

example contact improvisation took that

and played with that and the work of

Steve Pton for the ones who are not

familiar it's very important to explore

many ways of being within different

distances and spaces from other people

and touched in different ways and not

contextualizing ing it always in the

same way. I can touch your chest uh in

one way. I can touch it with the exact

same pressure and speed but it will feel

very different. the parameters I'm not

sure certain intentions certain

combination of postures or ways and this

is beautiful exploration and again I

would encourage you and others to

explore the discomfort for example

certain discomfort to be with a man in

certain scenario or with a woman and

trying to see what is that because if we

are truly strong we are not afraid of

anything and this will improve our

culture tremendously. Of course, there

must be agreement. You never force

yourself, but you meet someone who is

also interested in that exploration and

then you do it moving together in all

kinds of ways. Sometimes it's walking

together, but sometimes it's a all kinds

of it can be game, playful, it can be

romantic and there are many shades. Sex

doesn't start here and end here, right?

It's like continuum and we don't even

need to define it in that way. So with

time I think it unlocks a lot of things.

People become much stronger in a good

sense in sense of becoming being and uh

we abuse less and we can approach uh

yeah other aspects to us.

>> For many people they approach movement

in the form of weight training or yoga

or running. Yoga is a bit more dynamic

but fairly linear types of exercise.

and movement uh pelaton rowing. One

thing that I have started doing on the

basis of some of your teachings um and I

just sort of created this idea is rather

than statically standing there and

lifting weights actually walking from as

I alternate repetitions it occurred to

me that I had never done uh a curl a

bicep curl with one foot in front of the

other and then I had never actually

switched that up and it's a kind of an

odd stance to be standing in parallel

and curling one's arm is kind of a

ridiculous movement when one thinks

about it. So I started incorporating

some of that. you get some strange looks

in the gym, but I just give them strange

looks back. So, what are your thoughts

about these very linear forms of

exercise? And um and do you encourage

people to expand the play space um as it

were for these kinds of exercise?

>> Yeah, it's definitely a problem and it's

a it's approachable. People want a quick

people want to hack. People want that

the icing. There is no cake. There is no

cake and and it's just like industries

of icing. Icing. Icing on what? What are

you putting it on? You are movement.

There is a dynamic entity to you. The

body is a huge is a huge part of it

communicating. You have genetic layers.

There is a personalities that got

developed and built around various

influences. But then there is also some

kind of an essence. So I think these

practices they're very good but they are

not designed for the goal that we think

they were designed to

it orients towards something else. For

example yoga there is a good book called

the yoga body which will destroy a lot

of people's yoga practice. Um, and it

goes into how did we get to this yoga,

the influence of Swedish gymnastics and

Mongolian contortionists, western the

west affecting it and then the ancient

practice which was barely asa related

posture position. So actually you said

yoga is less linear. Yoga is very linear

these days. These lines look at all the

traditional dances they look like

nothing like yoga. Look at Thai dance.

Look at Chinese dances, martial arts.

It's all rounded. It's all curly. It's

like nature. What you see in nature and

the movement of the animals.

So where does it come from? These are

things to understand because it designs

you now. It it shapes you. You're

placing yourself in these forces of

change and these streams of change. And

you have a good intention. You just want

this or that. But the joke is on us. And

this is the movement practice for me is

first education. Let's start to think

about this. I have nothing

that I can just sprinkle now some magic

powder that will help resolve this

because it's a start of a deep

investigation. Let's talk pragmatically

because what you described is not about

you placing the foot in front when

you're curling. It's about the

examination.

This is why it is a very good direction.

And then you will need another one and

another one. Don't get stuck on that

foot in front of but and try to do with

the eyes closed or with a different head

posture and you will see things arrive

unrelated things because the associative

mind the thinking this relates to this

doesn't get to the heart of it. Never.

This is a playful approach and this is a

researcher approach. Um I don't try to

fit my truth into something. I'm there

to examine. I don't have a motive yet.

Why? Because I'm fine. I don't depend on

that to define myself. I'm a human

being. But if I don't have that sense of

worth, I I'm already like geared towards

I need to do this. I need to prove this.

I have this agenda. And this is how we

get all the lies in the world and all

the the problems and difficulties. So

these practices they are related to it

to prove this that this way. um why we

need muscles for XY Z and a lot of the

reported outcomes are often from my

place is like funny I hear about

something like I I heard you say about

gratitude practice if somebody tries to

feel gratitude just sit with the eyes

closed or watch a movie and sense the

gratitude there it would be clear to you

one is very difficult to do and the

other is very easy. Hence if gratitude

is achieved easier this way that's why

it works like that although all the

traditional practices are about you and

by challenging yourself to sense that

gratitude yourself way training the

benefits or the way that the hormonal

effects the effect of cognition etc.

When you open a bit and you go far out,

you see certain things. Not the truth,

but maybe less delusion. If you don't

get the weird looks, you're not moving

in the right direction. You already know

the result of that direction. Let's say

at least that. What happens when you do

it with a smile? The same workout. And

when you do it with a frown,

>> love it. I think that's a wonderful

message. What I keep hearing from you

over and over again is that people

should explore, explore, explore. You

know, the the greatest compliment that

one can give in science is the one that

I'm going to tell you now because it's

entirely appropriate, which is we say

you're an N of one, right? And you truly

are. I don't think there's anyone that

has been as willing to embrace existing

practices, evolve them, create new

practices, and and um and to share so

broadly to really be willing to give and

teach. so much knowledge. You know,

earlier you made the mention of your

your goals of uh in part of being wild

and wise, and I'm here to tell you that

you are both wild and wise, and so thank

you so much.

>> Thank you very much. Thank you.