You're gonna enjoy this. So, I'm gonna

play a clip. Sorry. This is on This is

not

>> You You've done a lot to You've done a

lot to deserve this. There's karma. You

do this to other people.

>> You're [laughter]

You have listeners.

>> Has this not happened to you?

>> No.

>> Really?

>> You put a No.

>> Yeah. Unfortunately, it's happened to

me.

>> I've not had a This is your life like

this where you you play things. My wife

after my wife and this was before it

everything became viral and things like

that. That really hadn't happened at

that point. This was a long time ago. My

wife called me, called me, not texted me

on my iPhone, like none of that [ __ ]

existed. She called me and said, "Don't

you ever do something like that again."

>> Why?

>> And and I

>> Well, I'm going to play first what you

did and then we can talk about it.

Sorry, you can cover your ears.

I'm not. I'm here to confront you

because we need help from the media and

they're hurting us. And it's the idea is

>> if the indictment, let me get this

straight. If the indictment is

>> uh if the indictment is and I have seen

you say this, that crossfire reduces

everything as I said in the intro to

left, right, black, white. Well, it's

because see we're debate show. It's like

single.

>> No, no, no. That a storm. would love to

see a debate in a 24-hour day where we

have each side on as best no that would

be great and have them fight it out.

>> To do a debate would be great, but

that's like saying pro wrestling is a

show about athletic competition.

>> I I think you're a good comedian. I

think your lectures are boring. Let me

ask you let me ask you a question on the

news.

>> Now, this is theater. I mean, it's it's

obvious. How old are you?

>> 35.

>> And you wear a bow tie.

>> Yeah, I do. I do. So, I do. So, this is

>> No, no, I know. I know you're right. Let

me just go now. And listen, I'm not I'm

not suggesting that you're not you're

not a smart guy because those are not

easy to tie. But the thing is

>> that this you're doing theater when you

should be doing debate, which would be

great.

>> It's not honest. What you do is not

honest. What you do is partisan hackery.

>> You can put him on now. You're It's

okay. Yeah, it's it's safe now. We're

we're back in a safe space.

>> Yeah, it's all right. I apologize. Yeah,

>> I knew Tucker Carlson in those days and

his signal characteristic to me, the

thing I think you were picking up on

particularly about him is he treated it

all as a joke. You can go back and read

Tucker Carlson's old magazine journalism

and it's great, hilarious magazine

journalism. He's a very very good

magazine writer when he was young

>> and he went through all these, you know,

very quick transformations. He was on

MSNBC for a while. People forget that.

Um Rachel Matts, one of her early uh

breaks was that she was a regular

contributor to Tucker Carlson's show on

MSNBC. He was this kind of good times

libertarian type and he was a guy who

treated it all kind of as a game. I

guess what I will say for him now is I

don't think it's a joke to him now.

Something happened there. I think his

politics are much more serious and much

more

>> real and obviously for that much more

dangerous.

>> Humiliation happened.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious how you

understand his what what what

>> happened to him psychologically.

>> Well, I think that

and I I hate to do this to you, Ezra.

I'm going to I'm going to describe this

to you in professional wrestling terms

since that was one of the analogies that

I used on there. [snorts]

>> See, this is actually the sport I know.

>> Okay, then Ezra, you and I,

>> we're in good shape here. Kayfabe, I got

it.

>> Beautiful. So what I was complaining

about on Crossfire was kayfabe was this

idea that this is just theater and

everybody's playing a character and

nobody's blah blah blah. But the other

way to describe it for them is so

there's an establishment and then

there's the anti-establishment, right?

The disruptors and the rebels.

Tucker Carlson was establishment. He

was, you know, and he tried to be a

face. He was a heel like like Fox News.

Megan Kelly, same thing. FA face being a

good guy, heel being a bad guy.

>> That's right. So, she was kind of a

she's on the heel network, Fox, but

she's kind of the face on Fox. She's the

one that like every now and again will

say something and like the establishment

or liberals will go like, "Wow, she

actually that's empathy. That's like

that's interesting. Oh, she's not towing

a dogmatic party line." Right? So, they

decide like, "Oh, I will live amongst

the faces. I will join them. I will be a

part of the establishment." and the

establishment and the faces reject them.

They feel wrongly and with a dogmatic

litmus test and it's never good enough

and it's their intolerance that put them

in that position. So they tried to live

amongst the normies, right? And when

that blows up and creates humiliation,

the anger and bitter and returns them to

I think

their truer selves. I I prefer them the

way they are right now. I kind of dig

it. It is like,

>> explain that.

>> I'd rather someone not pretend to be

Barbie and just be who she is, which is,

I think, Ursula from The Little Mermaid.

>> See, I went from It really went from pro

wrestling to The Little Mermaid. You

know, in many ways, Ezra, I am still

stuck in the same entertainment options

that I was using when my kids were

little. And that's that's I'm I'm frozen

in that time. But but do do you get my

point about like what happened is they

view and Donald Trump in the same way.

He views that there's this world that is

excluding them and they are excluding

them purely for dogmatic and they think

they're better than me and they hold

these views that they think their [ __ ]

doesn't stink. and I stepped into that

world and and tried to, you know, be

amongst them and and they rejected that

because they're [ __ ]

and now I can just be in my own world

and be as angry and as vicious as I

think I was treated.

>> I

>> and I think that's kind of the way it

goes.

>> I think it's so interesting. I I don't

know Megan Kelly's story as well as I

know or watched Carlson and and Trump. I

think it's a very s I think it's very

similar.

>> Yeah, I'm just

>> Her moment was the I joined NBC.

>> This morning is the launch of Megan

Kelly today just about six minutes from

now.

>> Megan, good morning.

>> Good [cheering] morning.

>> Show didn't go that well. And and by the

way, in both instances after being run

out of Fox News, by the way, because she

asked hard questions of Donald Trump at

the first debate, right, she was

rejected by the right first because she

was not sufficiently pro-Trump and he

came after her and within a year

>> and that's why we're seeing that's what

I meant by she was a face. She became a

face. But so if you think about it, both

Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly were

rejected and the reasoning behind their

rejection, I think, is still

misunderstood.

I didn't get Crossfire canceled.

Crossfire's ratings sucked and CNN

looked for a way out and that was a

convenient flash point. And by the way,

none of that had much to do, you know,

with Tucker Carlson. Anyway, person I

really didn't like there was Novak, but

he just wasn't on the show that day. And

Megan Kelly in the same thing. Her show

just wasn't connecting on NBC.

>> I'm Megan Kelly and I want to begin with

two words. I'm sorry.

You may have heard that yesterday we had

a discussion here about political

correctness and Halloween costumes

>> and then she had that moment of it was a

blackface I think comment about the

thing.

>> I defended the idea saying as long as it

as it was respectful and part of a

Halloween costume it seemed okay. Well,

I was wrong and I am sorry.

>> If her show was killing it, they'd have

found a way to forgive it. They'd have

found a way to keep her on there. They'd

have found but they used it as a

convenient excuse. Megan Kelly looks to

be parting ways with NBC. Her show Megan

Kelly Today is now cancelled.

>> The move comes 4 days after her

blackface comments that provoked a

firestorm leading to a tearful apology.

>> The chairman of NBC News condemned

Kelly's remarks during a staff town

hall. according to Variety saying there

is no place on our air or in this

workplace for them.

>> But I'm sure for her it was incredibly

painful

and felt like a cancelled because of my

viewpoints. But the truth of the matter

is NBC executives and CNN executives,

they aren't woke. They aren't any of

those things. They're [ __ ]

desperately trying to hold on to their

jobs by generating ad revenue by

whatever means necessary. And and so

that's what they got caught up on. And

by the way though, the way that it

happened

attacked them at a core level and that's

what's created that. Like I've been

cancelled a [ __ ] ton of times. But the

only reason I was canceled is like the

network executives just were like,

"Yeah, this show sucks or you're not."

But they didn't say like, "You're a bad

person and that's why we're canceling

the show." And that's what they did to

them. the industry rather than standing

up for what was really going on there,

which is you're not generating enough

revenue and interest to justify your

large contract or whatever it is. They

turned it into we're getting rid of you

for a moral failing or lapse. And that

was wrong. I I I really And that's not

Listen, I I don't care for what they do.

I don't care for their opinions, but

what happened to them

was wrong.

>> The executives are interesting here. Uh

I was thinking about this when you were

relaying that story about Roger Als.

>> Yes.

>> Cuz I there was a period of time in my

life I did a lot of MSNBC and was a a

guest host on a lot of the prime time

programs there. And so I knew the people

who ran it pretty well.

>> And what I would say about the people

who ran it was they were fundamentally

not that ideological. They were

television executives. what they cared

about and that's why Tucker Carlson had

a show and why they were so excited

about Joe Scarboro uh you know and still

and still are why recently they tried to

hire Ronald McDaniel the uh RNC chair

sort of disgraced RNC chair that didn't

end up working out due to a revolt by

people at the um network of morals

>> Roger Als is honestly ideological right

he had as he's put it he had a vision

right he had a view about how things

should be he wanted to be successful but

he also actually knew what he was trying

to achieve in the world. Those NBC

executives who brought on Megan Kelly,

it was obvious to me that that show

wasn't going to work, but they they

wanted the look of bringing on Megan

Kelly because they are not that

ideological and particularly don't want

to be seen as

>> they're lying to themselves because they

place things in a moral universe when

they really are just crass executives

who are trying to sell. Like that's the

part where I think the critique if if

there's one critique of the media from

the right that I do agree with is the

moralizing nature. You know the idea

that these media executives moralize

their position. Like there may be no

greater disparity between uh reality and

whatever idealized moral image you have

of yourselves than the Washington Post

putting on their uh uh mass head,

democracy dies in darkness. Like who the

[ __ ] do you think you are?

Like what world? You have a board up in

your room that shows like who's getting

what clicks where. Like that's just

nonsense. And this idea that I mean I

would almost welcome maybe not

necessarily a more moral component but a

component of the news media that is more

forceful uh editorially. Like Als's

greatest trick was delegitimizing the

idea of editorial authority

while exercising almost complete

editorial authority but doing it a way

that was really smart. Like there is no

uh condescension and moralizing on Fox.

It's people on a couch asking questions.

Are you worried about how many

terrorists are coming in on the border?

Do you ever worry about that? Whereas if

you turn on MSE sometimes you're like

it's like birds descending you know at

at sea on a tuna boat going that's

factually incorrect incorrect

not correct incorrect

and YOU'RE JUST LIKE I CAN'T listen to

this but that's the brilliance of it but

you know so so when I say like Megan

Kelly's right like I do believe she's

right they pretended that they had to

get rid of her out of some moral

obligation

to enlightened racism

sensibility like [ __ ] you. That is so

not what you did. If they're making

money, they're making money. And they'll

let you get away with anything. Anything

as we see. But when you ain't making

money anymore and they don't, for some

reason have the timmerity to just go,

"Yeah, you're not making us any money."

They find some pretense of your moral

failing

and yank you.

And so I get

where the where some of that anger comes

from from those folks. don't have a ton

of sympathy because I've been fired a

bunch of times too, but for the the

old-fashioned reasons of sucking.