you've been fear-based and I was like,

"Oh my gosh, and you just wanted to

exercise it." Now, it doesn't happen

overnight,

>> but I remember soon after that's that

season ended and the whole off season

and and so the next year, we're playing

the Cowboys. They're the best team in

the league, right? And I think to

myself, this is where you find out,

right? And I remember running up to

Troyman and we're warming up and he's a

friend and he's a quarterback for the

Cowboys. And I'm like, Troy, it's so

great that you're here, man, because I'm

on this quest to see how good I can get

and I can only find out against the

best. And so, I'm so glad that you're

here. And I remember Troy looking at me

like, freaking weirdo. What's What's

wrong with you?

>> But that's what I was about.

>> Steve, thank you so much for making the

time.

>> Bet.

>> It is so nice to honor, man. Hopefully,

I can add something to the amazing stuff

that you've done for a long time. So,

>> we'll see. We'll see. It's yet to be

determined.

>> I am sure that'll be the case. And I

have to give you Well, first point out

the pink elephant in the room. Welcome

to my temple of Tim.

>> I love it. I love it. I've I bow to the

to the greatness.

>> And and also this has been for me two or

three years in the making. Sort of a

slow build because a friend of mine sent

me a Bloomberg article about you that

talked about the many chapters of Steve

Young. And at that time, as is true now,

I've been incredibly interested in

people who successfully navigate these

phase shifts.

>> And I do not follow football. I have a

lot of respect for football. God knows

every time I see one of the car crashes,

aka collisions, I think that one hit and

I would be done, right? I don't know how

you guys do that.

>> It's insane. Even now, as I watch now,

I'm like, did I actually do that? It's

It's just remarkable how durable

players are. I have no idea how you guys

do it. But what I've been hoping to dig

into is the psycho, emotional,

spiritual, mental side of things,

>> right? That's football, weirdly. That's

football.

>> Yeah, it's crazy. We'll go on for that

for a little bit, too.

>> Yeah, we'll definitely get into that.

And I thought we would start. Actually,

I'll start with a wave. Hello. I don't

think you guys know each other, but you

might have had a connection decades ago.

Friend of mine who's a bit of a reckluse

named Josh Weightskin. He was the basis,

he would hate me to introduce him this

way, but he was the basis for Searching

for Bobby Fischer, the book and then the

movie Chess Prodigy. And

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Yes.

>> And he was in most most recently he got

>> kind of doxed. He he didn't really want

to be public about it for working with

the Celtics in the last few years really

with their coach. and he is a huge fan.

I mentioned he was like, "Hey, you have

5 minutes on the phone." He texted me

this morning and I said, "I can't do it.

I'm preparing for a podcast with this

legend." And I I sent him a link and he

goes, "Oh, I studied his game. I used to

study and study and study." He's not a

football guy.

>> But I thought you were bringing it up

because that's my that was my favorite

movie. Searching for Fischer was like,

>> "Oh, I had no idea."

>> Oh, absolutely. I thought that's why you

were saying it's like you had like cuz

I've said it many times. I was like,

"Oh, that's why." No, I had no idea.

>> I love that. That's a movie everyone

needs to watch.

>> It's a compelling story.

>> Super compelling. And what what doesn't

get put into the movie because it

couldn't have been put into the movie

given the time frame is that Josh at his

peak effectively retired from chess

because of all the attention that ended

up landing on him after the success of

the book and the movie. and he has

navigated three or four very very very

successful phase shifts.

>> That's awesome.

>> And so game recognizes game. He's like,

"Oh, I know Steve Young. I've studied

Steve Young."

>> That is weird. That's like a full circle

for me.

>> Very small.

>> Growing up when I was a kid, the movie

in high school

>> and uh yeah, and people probably don't

know it.

>> I'm glad you're Let's shout it out. Go

see that. It's a It's worth it. It's

>> amazing. And and the book is is very

good. It's a fun subject slash sore

subject to chat with Josh about. But I'm

going to invoke a name that was very

meaningful for me in terms of writing

way back in the day and that is Steven

Cvy. So could you describe

>> meeting Steven CVY?

>> Wow.

>> And who Steven Cvy is

>> in the 80s 90s even the I guess you call

them. He was writing books, seven habits

books,

>> and really I'd known his kids, but I

never met him.

>> And I was I get a little background.

>> You had known his kids through the

through the church

>> at school. Yeah. No, at school at BYU.

Like I'd met them and they played

football and so but I never really met

him. I got a little background here. So

I'm I'm playing for the 49ers. Joe

Montana and I had been we were on the

same team and I we both wanted to play

and he was the king and I was this kid

that wanted to I didn't want to just sit

there, you know. I finally got my chance

to play in 1991 and it didn't go great.

>> Mhm.

>> And I always joke about walking around

town and you know that and how I

describe it is you know telling people

no I think he did throw an incomplete

pass once. You know I mean I think he

did lose a game. In fact, I think he's

thrown an interception or two. Like, cuz

a memory of someone who's great

>> is only great. And here's this kid

trying to live up to all of that. And I

was pouring myself into it. I mean, I

was over indexed on trying to figure out

how to and all I could look around was

everyone who wasn't

>> and how everything was my fault and

everything. No matter what happened, I

went anywhere. It's like, well, yeah,

Steve Young sucks. You know, it's Steve

Young's problems. And I I found myself

middle of the season middling around and

I noticed that I was like depressed. I

was miserable. Felt like I was like at

the bottom of a hole. We lost a game

against the Raiders in front of 100,000

people at the LA Coliseum. Jerry Rice is

open in the end zone to win the game and

I never he's literally waving like you

know and I didn't see him and it was

just like the epitome of like everything

that could go bad and so I was

miserable. I'm I need to give you that

backstory cuz

>> you have to know my state of mind. I was

miserable and I got on a plane cuz

Tuesday is day off in the NFL. So Monday

night I got on a plane, went to Salt

Lake City to see my brother cuz he was

in University Utah Med School. I was

like, "Man, maybe he can I don't know,

help me get out of this funk. I mean,

this is just terrible. I'm not sleeping

well. It's just miserable." And I walk

around the town with him. He's like,

"Steve, I got two kids and broke in

medical school. Like, your life looks

sweet to me." So, he didn't help very

much. And I was like, I don't know. I

told him I didn't know how I was going

to get to Christmas. So I get on the

plane to come back, sit down, and Steve

CVY sitting there, and he says, "Hello."

And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it's been,

you know, I've always wanted to meet

you." And and he goes, he he asked a

simple question. How you doing? And I'm

in a state of mind where I was pretty uh

vulnerable. I just told him, kind of

recitated everything that I just said to

you and how kind of miserable I was. And

uh I got done with it, you know, 25 30

minutes later and he goes, "Huh, wow,

man. I I can feel that. Like I can feel

all of that. The expectations, the how

tough it is to not get the help that you

think that you need and things that are

working against you." And

man, can I ask you a couple questions? I

go, "Yeah." He goes, "Your owner Eddie

Debardalo, tell me about him." "Oh my

gosh, he's the only owner in football

that ever saw players as partners. I

mean, he's amazing." And I went on about

that. And then he said, "What about your

coach, Bill Wallace?" He's like, "Yeah,

he's like a guy that talks about

hydration and nutrition and sleep and

mental health and you talk about

partnership. No one's doing what he's

doing. His West Coast offense, that guy

is amazing." He goes, "Yeah, I'd heard

that. I'd love to meet them both, you

know, cuz let me ask one last question.

Is Joe Montana on the team?" I'm like,

"Yeah, he's hurt." And that's kind of

the problem. And he's like, "Well, if

you had to ask him for mentorship, go

ask him questions to help your game.

Could you do it?" I'm like, "Yeah, I

could." And he goes, "All right. Well, I

want you to know what I do. I travel the

world looking for platforms, companies,

organizations that create

the ability for the humans on the

platform to see how good they can get

and iterate and find out because that's

that's what life should be about. As I

travel the world, I'm always looking for

it. And I I'd love to talk to those guys

about their platform, but I got to step

back, Steve, and tell you that from my

perspective,

the platform that you're on, the the

place that you are, I think might be the

greatest

one that I've ever seen.

And I was like,

wait, did you didn't you hear me? Like,

bro, this is miserable.

>> Things are terrible.

>> Things are terrible. But it stung me. It

like went through my heart. It was like,

oh my gosh.

My first thought was, I think I might

have screwed this whole thing up. Like,

oh, cuz to have him say that truth to

me. He goes, let me ask you quite one

last question cuz it's scary. He goes, I

always wonder if people are willing to

take the chance to find out how good

they are,

>> you know? And I'm like reflexive about

it. Yeah, of course. I I I'm absolutely

up for that. And then he took a minute

and he's like he he looked kind of like

he was little and bald and like long f

like a little yodish you know what I

mean?

>> I remember the about the author photo.

>> Yeah. And so he took his finger and he

kind of looked at me and said then be

about it. And I was like,

"Oh my gosh." I realized right there

that the hole I was in that I thought so

many people had dug

that I had dug it. I had no idea that I

dug the hole.

>> Mhm.

>> And I had thought that everyone pushed

me in

and I didn't realize that I had jumped

in. And so it was that, you know, we

talk about victimization for a long time

cuz it's such an important thing to far

it out in your own life over and over

again like never stop. It was the

realization that I had played the victim

and had jumped in a hole, dug it and

jumped in and I am the author of it.

Like that's what the shock was.

>> Like I authored this and and I remember

getting off the plane as if I was

transformed. I don't want to say it

lightly. It was as if I now knew if I

was going to do anything, I was going to

be about this. And I remember not

sleeping well that night, but for a

different reason. I thought, "Oh my

gosh, I think I've screwed this up

enough that on Wednesday mornings when

you get fired in the NFL." And I'm like,

I'd heard rumors about maybe getting

benched. And I'm like, "Oh crap, don't

tell me that I have screwed this up so

bad that I don't get a chance to go fix

it." M

>> and I screamed down at practice the next

day as energized as ever like I've got

just please don't b please give me

another and I didn't get benched and I

did play and and I was about it and it

was fun because it it's like something

that's true like truly true like

universally true when it's that way it

doesn't waver it doesn't you don't have

iterations of it like it's like it's

just true I don't have to worry about

like it is and he said it's not going to

be like people are really afraid like

it's hard to find out how good you are

cuz you might find out you're not very

nearly as good as you thought you were.

>> Mhm.

>> You got to make that okay and that now

I'm going to be iterate and find out how

good I can get.

>> So it's really about fear

>> and if you can lose that fear and that's

basically what you're dealing with is a

fear-based

>> you've been fear-based and I was like oh

my gosh and you just wanted to exercise

it. Now, it doesn't happen overnight,

>> but I remember soon after that's that

season ended and the whole offseason and

and so the next year, we're playing the

Cowboys. They're the best team in the

league, right? And I think to myself,

this is where you find out, right? And I

remember running up to Troyman and we're

warming up and he's a friend and he's a

quarterback for the Cowboys. And I'm

like, Troy, it's so great that you're

here, man, because I'm on this quest to

see how good I can get, and I can only

find out against the best, and so I'm so

glad that you're here. And I remember

Troy looking at me like, freaking

weirdo. What's What's wrong with you?

But that's what I was about.

>> Yeah.

>> And to finish the story, I think I have

to finish it kind of honestly and

authentically. I was MVP of the NFL that

year.

>> And you think back to being in the

bottom of a hole running to my brother

to see if like I could get out of this

depression. And it's just amazing to me

that perspective,

a truthful, universally

authentic fact can make that kind of

difference in somebody's life. I owe him

>> the greatest debt, right? Because you

think about angels in your life or

people that show up.

>> It was almost like it's a wonderful life

moment. Like, you know what I mean? Like

you almost think, was he really there or

was I imagining like this guy that's

sitting next to me? So that's the Steven

CVY story. What a wild

sliding doors moment, right? Just the

happen stance of that interaction and

how it changed things. It's so

remarkable to reflect on and it really

never ended because it's true. I now

seek out that victimization in my life,

watch it for other people, try to help

because it's such a nefarious

>> common

state of being.

>> Yeah. and totally rationalized too. I

always talk about the entropic world

that we live in. It's like super

transactional, eat what you kill, sweat

your brow, like it's all the conditions

of the world like victimization feels

almost rational.

>> Mhm.

>> But it's kind of death.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And so that's the thing that I

watch in my own like I swear, you know,

and that that feeds to accountability.

It feeds to who authors all this? you

think that someone else is authoring it,

but you continue to author it and don't

take it, you know, that's what I was

missing, right? Yeah. I'm I'm actually

And so that's why the perspective was so

powerful. I

>> to this day it gives me little chills

like I'm so grateful cuz I was about to

walk down a path that was going to be

miserable

>> and I would have said it wasn't fair.

>> You know, how can anyone, you know, this

is not right. you know I need another

chance because it you know I want a

better shot and I want people who will

support me more or you know you come up

with all kinds of stuff and that's what

would have happened

>> and who knows where it may be but

>> it would have been a different life

>> great Steven Kubby man

>> so after that realization

and makes me also think about there's a

book called extreme ownership written by

Jaco Willink former Navy Seal commander

which is really also underscores this

ownership

>> right being all about it, right? If

>> I love that

>> as you put it and I'm curious to know

after that realization, after the

questions about seeking out mentorship

or otherwise on the plane, what were

some of the next steps? What were some

of the most important changes that you

made that allowed you then a year later

to be where you were?

>> It's like a boat that leaves the harbor.

It changed the direction that you left

every morning.

>> Like there's an intent. There was a aha,

right? It was like, "Oh my, I can't

believe that I

almost walked down this treacherous

path."

>> And that's why I knew it was true is cuz

every morning I wake up and say, you

didn't have to doubt. It was like, don't

play the victim. M

>> like start owning and look forward to

the possibility of what you can like my

theology is about we're here as humans

to learn and grow. It can be tough and

miserable. It can be all kinds of things

but that's the underpinning of what

we're trying to do is learn and grow. Be

about it again. Like don't be afraid. It

changed how I went to practice. Like you

might not have a great practice.

>> Mhm.

>> But but own it. You might not be as

strong as you thought you were. Well,

freaking own it. like stop dancing

around

the the authenticity of what you're

trying to do. And once I open myself to

all that, it brings you to the moment.

Like it brings you to the present. Like

what can I do right now? Not what what

if or what possibly. And then it became

a quest that was intentional every day

to go find out like it's okay if you're

not as good as you thought you were.

Like in fact, let's just know.

>> Yeah. I don't need to read the paper to

have somebody tell me how I'm doing. I

don't need to wait in line at the

grocery store at the checkout with the

clerk and the and the lady with the

paying as they talk about the 49ers

waiting for the inevitable what do you

think about Steve Young and then waiting

for the answer as if it was going to

define me.

>> Mhm.

>> But I that's where I was right. That's

before it was like oh he sucks. I'm like

oh I suck. You know, it's like you've

allowed thinking that they're it's

you're doing it to me. I'm allowing them

to do it to me, right? Because I'm not

defining right.

>> And that has stuck with me even to today

where

>> like it's a vulnerability. It's a

authenticity about accountability. Like

where is it? Where does it lie?

>> I'm using football to describe a lot of

stuff that are very important concepts,

but it's like when you throw an

interception. And for people who don't

know football, what does that mean?

>> So I have the ball. I'm the quarterback.

I drop back to pass to win the game. The

last minute, the last seconds, the crowd

is screaming with anticipation. 80,000

people. You can feel the emotion of it

like it's happening. We're going to

we're winning this game. And then I

throw it. And the other team, the

defense that's on the field, they

intercept it. They take it. And there's

this moment where 80,000 people with all

this anticipation, it's like

like and sports is that cool because

that's it's hard to get those moments.

Yeah.

>> Where they're like

>> binary moments where it's like and then

the emotional swing like to get that

kind of a swing with 80,000 people.

>> It's kind of crazy cool. I can't believe

I'm saying that cuz it wasn't that cool

at the moment.

>> But it was cra it's crazy to feel that,

>> right? And I spent a long time with my

teammates at that moment when they would

look at me and say, "Hey, we watched you

do this and it felt like you threw it

right to them."

>> Like there's an underpinning of it like

we know you didn't do it on purpose, but

kind of looks like you did. And so as a

human behavior emotion, I'm like, "Oh, I

got to show them that like this was a

mess." like you turned the wrong way or

you didn't block your guy or something

else happened. Mitigation,

>> right? That's the mitigation. That's the

instinct. I I I take the the banner of

mitigation and say, "Look at all this

truth. I'm not telling you lies. I'm

telling you truth. This is how it

happened."

>> Mhm.

>> Facts. Own the facts. like, but I didn't

realize that there's a truth to the

mitigation,

but it but it's not actually useful

until I turn to them and say the ball

was in my hands and now it's in their

hands. That is the truest truth. Mhm.

>> Again, if you live in mitigation, which

is kind of the Steven Co. It's like

where I I was living in all this truth,

people saying things, people doing how I

felt, it's all this, but it was

mitigating and it wasn't authoring.

>> Mhm.

>> And so when I started to breathe that

back into the system, look, I screwed it

up.

>> No matter what happened, don't worry

about mitigation right now. I screwed it

up. Let's go fix it.

>> And everyone was like, "Ah, yeah, let's

go do that." And I'm sorry that I turned

the wrong way. You know, I'm sorry that

I I'm sorry that I And so all of a

sudden,

>> it's like calm is contagious in the

military ownership.

>> So it's like and so I have to when I

talk about Steven CVY, I have to talk

about my authorship,

vulnerability and accountability from

for me and being

the quest is really to be honest with

yourself and that's what I wasn't doing.

And so when you say what did you do?

What did what were the aspects of it?

what you know if someone heard this and

go I I want to I want to be about that

too

>> how do I do it to me it's it's a it's a

state of being it's not a list of things

to do

>> right well it also sounds like you were

if I'm hearing you correctly basically

out of the gate each morning it sounds

like you were reminding yourself of that

underpinning truth as you went out into

practice as you went out into

>> it was almost like you have to excise

the victimization look I don't know a

ton about brain I'm not a scientist But

what I little I know is that the brain's

here to keep me safe.

>> And in so many times your brain's

working against you because it's it's

playing the victim for you and you have

to retrain

kind of how you think about it. So like

that's why I say every day you have to

keep training a new thought pattern, a

new way to and and it was so clear to

me. It was easy. When it's not clear and

muddy, it's harder. You're like, I can't

what was the point? I can't remember.

And here comes the life. But for me, it

was so clear and obvious that I was

playing the victim that I I think for me

it was just a state of being every

morning. I might suck,

but it has to be okay.

>> Mhm.

>> It it has to be whatever it is so that I

don't look anywhere else. It's just you

can author it, you can get better at it,

but quit living in the mock of

mitigation. I guess I would say it

>> we are going to come back to some

related.

>> I'm sorry to riff like that. I

>> I love riffing. This is why it's long

form and as a muggle, right? Someone

who's looking at football and I I don't

understand all of the technicality

behind it and the strategy, but I

respect the athleticism. I look at a

quarterback and I wonder

if you were to try to explain it to

someone like me who's a a lay person per

se,

what separates good from great

quarterbacks? Are there any particular

elements that you see consistently

in great quarterbacks

that are absent, not paid as much

attention to or otherwise? I mean, they

could be physical, but I'm wondering if

if anything comes to mind.

There's not a long enough form for this.

>> Yeah.

>> Because think about it. How many very,

very smart people have been looking into

college to predict who can be great in

the NFL? And there's no worse results.

>> Yeah.

>> Than trying to predict.

>> Trying to do that.

>> And that's why why is college not a

great predictor? You know, I mean,

what's happening

>> in the NFL? That's

>> What do you think? Is it something

internal like their ability to learn in

a certain way? I've been trying to melt

it down to something that people can

just grab like this is the truth.

>> One thing's for sure, human behavior,

human mind, I don't know what the right

way to think about it, but when there's

adrenaline

and focus and pressure and opposition. I

mean, how many games are

someone's paid to actually screw you up

like physically? like I I'm paid to grab

you and throw you to the ground and you

know hurt hurt you like you know what I

mean that's my I paid millions of

dollars. So, it's all in that moment, in

that kind of dynamic that you now have

to

far it through. And I Tim I wish

everybody who loves football could stand

with a helmet on right with and at 64 or

63 or whatever 6'2 whatever like Russell

was in 6510 stand there and f it through

bodies in motion the fastest most

athletic humans on earth on both sides

and try to figure out how to and that's

why when you talk about the difference

in the NFL is the speed.

>> It's the athleticism and your brain

can't a lot of times people's brain

can't process that fast,

>> right?

>> They were processing fine in college.

>> They're processing great in high school,

>> but it's just an elevation. Gladly for

me, there's not a superpro like I would

have topped out, you know, but it's I

think more than anything the the quality

>> because there's fundamental things. You

got to be able to throw the ball. You

got to be able to but it's the process

>> of figuring out

>> the speed and then

>> because no one's you in my mind college

everybody's every receiver's open and

the pros nobody's open like that that's

the change you have to now figure out

how to deliver it so that it's not open

at the time you throw it but by the time

it gets there it's open.

>> Yeah. And I think that's the best way to

explain

>> how. And then do it over like every 30

seconds.

>> Yeah.

>> And how many times do you throw it right

at the And then just as it leaves your

hand, you get just pounded into the

ground. You don't even see it.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, how many times do you bottom of

a pile and you're like, "How did it go?"

Like, you don't know. And you just

listen for the crowd, right? Cuz you're

like, if it's home and they're securing,

you're like, "It worked." You know, and

otherwise, you know, if they're booing

you, then it's bad. So I think it's the

processing and the anti and it's a

guile.

>> Mhm.

>> It's a street smart. You met people that

is not necessarily IQ for

like taking a calculus test, right?

>> There's memorization but it's I don't

know. You know what I mean? Like it's

>> you just get it. You get it. And

>> I think there is a speed also associated

with that. Even with street smarts that

I see in some of my friends in business

a certain EQ savvy. They're very fast.

like their clock speed is high

>> and I think they'd be great

quarterbacks, right? It's where

that's the thing and I think you just

described it very well in other fields.

I see it too. But it's but again even

when I see it in other people I think I

don't know at that speed if that you

know because you just don't you don't

know until you know.

>> Well there's also the pressure of

imminent bodily harm. Well, that's I

mean it's I think most humans when

things get more intense you the

adrenaline runs and when adrenaline runs

the brain focuses right it gets smaller

and it gets more focused but yet you

don't you're not as aware

>> right and so that physiology doesn't

work

>> because in quarterbacking you have to

>> have to have the peripheral

>> and it has the more present you are like

if you're in your backyard,

>> not 80,000 people watching, but and if

like this was all happening in my

backyard, how would I take this in? So,

I've noticed that the best quarterbacks

have a genetic I think it's genetic

>> Mhm.

>> predisposition to when adrenaline runs,

it doesn't do the normal things that for

most humans.

>> And that's why the qualities like I wish

there was a test for that because I

could promise you I could tell you who's

going to be great.

>> Yeah. I wonder if it's something just

thinking out loud. I interviewed someone

named Alex Honold on the podcast before

he did his big run which turned into a

documentary called Free Solo, but he

climbed

>> oh my

>> I think it was Elcap. I can't remember

the exact face and it's like nosane.

>> And so I interviewed him.

>> I I can't watch it.

>> It's too

much like I can't I literally can't

watch it. I want to watch it.

>> I can't watch

>> Yeah.

>> life and death like that. His brain

responds differently to exactly the

circumstances

>> 100%. And that's the only way because

all of us watch it go, "Oh no,

>> panic and fall." That's

>> way no way. Every grip has to be life or

death. Like no way. People think about

quarterback in the NFL like whoa, you

know, how do you do? It's like look, you

know, talk about what you just said.

That's a whole that's like that's this

is peanuckle to

>> might be like neurologically or

genetically related. Is there anything

that when you look at your trajectory

that was learnable or coachable that you

absorbed by watching other people? Like

what did you improve most at? So there's

a lot out of the box, right? I mean, you

were successful as a younger athlete and

read some great quotes from your dad

about this, but

>> you were successful as a younger

athlete. You seem to have some hard

wiring out of the box that was very

helpful.

>> Yeah. But you didn't just hit the ground

running in the NFL and you were top of

the game. There was something that

improved. I'm wondering or many things.

>> So one fundamental thing had to happen

which was how to throw the football.

It's not intuitive. Kind of like golf.

Golf is not like you think great golf

swings. When you grab a club as an

adult, you're not going to do it right.

>> Yeah.

>> And as a kid, I grabbed a football and

because I didn't want to be embarrassed,

I wanted to spin perfectly. I would spin

it out of my hand and that's how I did

it. But you can't get behind

to throw it hard.

>> Ah, I see.

>> This was not something that was like a

deep dark secret, but in Greenwich,

Connecticut, some people grab it, grab a

golf club, grab a football, and it's

just like, oh yeah, that's how you must

do it.

>> That's not how I did it. And so I got to

college, I'd faked my way into playing

college quarterbacking without really

understanding it. And Jim McMahon was

the quarterback at the time at BYU.

Incredible. Like he second the highest

man. Like he was amazing. But he was

righty and I was lefty and I was like

how does he's throwing it different.

>> And then I realized that you have to you

turn instead of spinning it out like to

spin it. You actually go the other

direction using the tension inside your

arm as you hold it and then just go in.

>> Oh wow.

>> You actually spin it. It comes out and

spins. But now you can throw it like

with all your power.

>> Right. Right.

>> And that was you talking about what I I

had to have that.

>> I mean those are those seem you know

I've played a bunch of sports certainly

at mistakes. Right.

>> Well no it seems like rebuilding your

swing in golf or something

>> a little bit but but it was such an

unlock.

>> Yeah.

>> Once you felt it golf is maybe more

complicated because you got a stick and

you got it's like

>> you're a little divorced from the right.

But the fact that it was in my hand

>> once you felt it

>> Yeah. You're like, "Oh my gosh." And

then what I realized is I can now throw

it as hard as I want right there.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it was like this gift I had that

was going to go undiscovered.

>> Yeah.

>> And all of a sudden it just it came out.

>> Did you realize that at BYU or

>> Yes. Right there. Okay.

>> It was my freshman year. I wish I would

have written down the days like November

10th, you know.

>> Okay. It was like discovering fire.

>> Fire. Exactly. We we live. All I did

from that point on is throw the ball.

>> Like I just want to throw it throw it

everywhere. Throw it. And what's ironic

>> is that the coach who was the offensive

coordinator at the time soon after

because no one knew this is all

happening. I was eighth. I was no one. I

was nobody. Yeah.

>> No one knew my but I had figured it out.

It had it had clocked in. It was

clocking. Right. And so I think for me,

he pulled me aside later in the year. He

goes, "By the way, I don't I don't coach

lefties." He said it to me, "I don't

coach lefties." And I'm like,

>> and so I was moved to defense

at the end of that season

>> because Lavel Edwards, the coach, said,

"Look, you're super fast, super

athletic. We have 10 quarterbacks.

>> Like, we want you on the field if you

play." And so I started in the winter

practices winter as a safety in a

defense coali position I couldn't stand.

I hated every second of it. Soon as

practice ended the quarterbacks would

throw after practice. I'd go throw

>> and in the interim that coach who told

me he wouldn't coach lefties took a head

coaching job at San Diego State. Another

coach, Ted Tolner, came in and I'm

throwing with the quarterbacks after

practice and he goes, "Steve, I thought

you played quarterback." I go, "I I do,

but they told me I'm lefty, so I have to

play defense." And he goes, "That's

ridiculous. That's stupid." I go, "I

know. This is insane." And then I

screamed out, "But I I learned how to

throw, too." Like, so I have this thing

that, you know, and he's like, "Let me

go see if I can fix it." So he goes in

and changes it. Wow.

>> And that spring, spring ball was a

month,

>> you know, 30 days of practice. He got

two weeks for me to to practice

>> before I, you know, they made a

decision. And by the end of the two

weeks because of this new gift

>> Mhm.

>> that was it.

>> Wow.

>> That was it. And with that change

everything cuz I was fast, I could run,

I could throw it hard, I could process,

the game wasn't too fast for me. I kind

of all made sense to me. I just didn't

unlock that one

>> Mhm.

>> fundamental piece of throwing the

>> It's so fun having this conversation.

I've been looking forward to to it for

so long. And and before I forget, I just

wanted to say again on a very reduced

junior varsity level, but I wrestled my

whole life basically. And

>> I have total respect.

>> Yeah,

>> I wrestled in ninth grade.

>> Yeah, it's a tough sport.

>> I will never wrestle again.

>> It is tough.

>> Brutal. There is no good news.

>> No, there's no good news. you work like

I remember the first wrestling I go to

your just to break in your story I you

know it's like three one minute three

one minute or three minute I can't

remember how long and so by the first

one was over I was done

>> the people are in the best shape the

greatest athletes

>> I when I see wrestlers I tip my cap I

walk away man I'm like

>> it is a suffer fest

>> it is brutal

>> no matter what and just a brief

digression here but I spent a year

abroad in Japan in high school, which

was my first time really outside of the

United States from from Long Island to

Tokyo, which changed my whole life. But

I competed in judo while I was there.

Then I came back for my final year of

wrestling in high school and I was doing

really really well. But I hit a wall and

the reason I'm bringing this up

>> is not at all to compare apples to

apples,

>> but I get it.

somehow found a book called Mental

Toughness Training for Sports by a guy

named James Lair spelled L O E HR who

Josh Whiteskin actually also knows and I

read that book and the key piece of that

it talked about different approaches to

mental toughness but it had an

assessment and it asked you to give this

assessment to close friends, coaches,

teammates and it just made all of your

strengths and weaknesses had them rate

you on all of these different aspects,

toughness, performance, resilience,

etc., psychology. And once I had those

report cards from all of these people

and I was able to see and accept

strengths and weaknesses, I don't think

this is unique to me. There really was a

before and after, right? Like the next

practice was different and that's when

everything hockey stick and ended up

having just an incredible season.

But to people who are listening and are

haven't experienced what say Steve

experienced on that plane ride.

>> Yeah.

>> Or what I've experienced with that book,

there really can be that flash boil

before and after.

>> That's kind of what self-help stuff does

and tries to give you. And the problem

is it doesn't all time land because

>> I get the idea, right? And so I read the

book. I read the oh I'll go read the

book.

>> Yeah.

>> You read the book. Oh, okay. But the

flash point is really to me the

vulnerability

that that's the hard part.

>> Yeah.

>> The hard part is to open up and take the

risk.

>> Yeah.

>> Truly internally.

>> And I was living this life where it's

like I want to be great. I want to be

great. I want to be great. And anyone

who tells me I'm not, I don't know what

to do about it. And it feels like I

can't overcome it. And it's like you

have to become

vulnerable. That's how you take it in.

And so people are like, "How what do I

do?" I was like, like, can you start in

relationships with your mom,

>> with your s siblings, the most intimate

ones? Can you start to recognize the

complexity of that relationship, which

it always is, and however you've defined

it's probably been not a great

authentic, vulnerable place. Can you

start by opening up to your

accountability, to your

>> your pardon?

>> Yeah. Yeah. you're like cuz if you want

to have an aha moment or you want to

have a you know read a book and change

kind of inflection point it comes from

>> you were open for it you were ready for

it and I was so desperate with Steven

Cvy but it wasn't necessarily I was

looking for it was because it was it

resonated so truthfully

>> like I'm screwing this up

>> I am royally screwing this up and I

cannot keep screwing it up and I think a

lot of people at that moment go, I'm

going to keep screwing it up because I

don't want to face

>> Mhm.

>> the other side of that. That's what

Stephen Cvy remember when he said it's a

lot of people don't want to know how

good they are.

>> Yeah.

>> So, there's the v it's I hope I'm

describing it. It makes sense to my

brain.

>> Yeah.

>> That unless you get to that space, you

really can't change. Well, the

vulnerability also seems to me

fundamentally accepting the possibility

almost the certainty that you're making

mistakes and part of accepting how good

you are is not necessarily accepting

how excellent you inevitably are but

accepting the possibility that you might

be falling short in certain places.

>> And then also that the grace in it,

right? Where what's the point? Mhm.

>> Is the point to be regarded by

people or is the point to see how good

you like that's why it goes back why it

resonated with me is because my own

theology was like we're here to learn

and grow. Let's let's do it.

>> Yeah.

>> And part of learn and growing is I suck

right now but I'm not going to suck

tomorrow.

>> Yeah.

>> And once you can start to get into that

mode of like that's what I'm about.

>> That's what happens. there's a clarity

that comes like cuz now everything gets

fed through that truth and now it comes

in more authentically like and it

doesn't doesn't hit the same way, right?

And you can kind of and and you can go

in front of 80,000 people and find

a piece about it that

80,000 people could boo you mercilessly.

It is hard what I'm talking about. But

you can be authentically say, "Look, I'd

boo me too."

>> Yeah.

>> In fact, I might just boo with you.

Like, it's okay. And you get into that

place, but you're not going to boo me.

I'm going to try not to get booed

tomorrow. And then, but might it might

be and like this. But as long as your

brain is saying the whole point

is to learn and grow, then Steven CVY be

about it. And I think that really freed

me up.

>> Seems like such an important tectonic

plate underneath everything else. I want

to ask you about one of those one of

those quotes from your dad that I was

alluding to earlier. So this is from the

Bloomberg piece and the URL has in it.

Steve Young is an athlete who's actually

good at finance, which I just part of me

love part-handed compliment.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Love just love that. So your

dad was bewildered by

>> by that fact.

>> Well well he was bewildered by how well

you did at football at different levels.

And then this last line is the one I

wanted to ask you about. Says honestly

Steve's personality is probably a better

fit for law or business

>> as compared to professional athlete. Why

why would he say that do you think?

>> I think he's referring to

and I look we we should just we should

we should talk about it. So when I was a

kid

growing up, you know, first grade,

second grade, third grade,

I was a kid that when the first day of

school,

like I would turn to my mom or dad and

say, "Look, I'm not going."

>> Mhm.

>> And they're like, "Why? It's super fun."

And I'm like, and my brain was

processing it in fear and a new place,

new people, and that seemed super scary.

And that's I think clinically would be

called separation anxiety

>> childhood, you know, and I think people

listening, I'm sure they know somebody

probably that had that as a kid. And so

that didn't really show up in my life

cuz I realized very young that I was not

going to be like going on vacation with

my friends and

>> you know I was going to be home.

>> Sleepovers not so much.

>> Not so much. But during the daytime I

was killing it. like I you know I mean

only for context like all stayed in

three sports captain straight A's like

not because I was Tiger parents or Tiger

person like I just the day was awesome I

can't wait it's going to be great and at

night it's like I'm home

>> and I didn't realize that how how much I

had of this is when I went to college

>> and had to go through a

process of

geography change that was like

existential.

>> And it's hard to explain to people

because they're like going to college is

awesome, man. What the what's your

problem?

>> And why you didn't unpack your bags the

whole semester and you kept telling

you're just miserable? Like how's that

possible? Well, it's it's how my brain

worked function. I can't really say much

else about it. And I remember when I

came back for Christmas, I finally got

to come home and I remember walking

through the door and going, "Oh, wow. I

kind of want to go back to school. And I

realized in my life that was a huge

shift for me in my, you know, you live

in your own private Idaho, like all the

things that you're feeling, all the

things you don't really share, you don't

really, you know, like some of it you're

afraid to even share. And it's like all

of a sudden I realized it's going to be

all right cuz now I have two homes.

>> And that was a shift that I needed. What

my dad's describing is generally when I

had to go play,

I would there was a pattern of

focus that was like, you know, he would

call hyperfocus and not fun, you know,

and so he's like he's built for

something else. I think that's what he's

referring to. But I think it comes from

the roots of that,

you know, what I would call

clinical part of my life, you know, and

another little internal battle cuz now I

like I see the world and I'm like can't

wait to discover it. Like at some point

it just flipped. the thing that was so

constrictive and difficult and

threatening. I remember my parents left

for a couple days when I was really

little at my aunt's house and I can

still smell it. I can still feel it. I

can still like the terror

>> of them walking out and I like I look

back and like how do you explain that's

in that's an insane react. I remember I

can still hear my brothers and sisters

outside laughing with all my cousins

having good time like but that was me. I

had to part of the authenticity is come

to a place where we can look at in the

eye too, you know.

>> So I'm that's that. So that's I think

that explains my dad's comment

>> like that part of me.

>> But what he doesn't realize is that part

of me

>> drove

>> the intensity and the focus and the So

it's like it's not all bad.

>> Yeah. There's a flip side.

>> There's a flip side. And so I would say

to my dad, "Well, the way you're looking

at it, I can see why you'd say that, but

the way I'm looking at it, it's like I

think it was an I had to have it."

>> Yeah. Was there a a point where

I mean, this is going to be a strong way

of of putting it, but you know, I've

experienced this this in my own life and

have talked about struggles. Some of it

I think is hereditary with generalized

anxiety. I've had depressive episodes

which I've seen throughout my family and

appreciate how open you've been about

discussing some of this. And I'm curious

at at what point you realized you didn't

need that kind of monkey on your back.

And specifically,

>> I'm thinking about in the course of

doing research for this reading a New

York Times piece and it mentions Dr.

James Clint and Reggie, I guess. And you

approaching Reggie at one point. I think

it was after what, three sleepless

nights, something like that.

>> Mhm.

>> And I guess I'm wondering what was

happening, right, for people who don't

know what the context is.

>> Yeah.

>> And then what happened afterwards that

helped? So that's interesting. So it's

kind of a bookend actually tight

bookends between the Steven CVY story

and the Jim Clint story.

>> Mhm.

>> Because just before that and maybe

that's what leads to the vulnerability.

I in the depth of what I just described

and where I was in a hole and victimize

and depress there was a game starting

like Thursday night. The good news about

all of that anxiousness around playing I

always slept

>> so it was like you could deal with it

>> and all a sudden I wasn't. And so it was

a game where people that I was near were

like, "Steve, you're a mess.

>> You got to talk to them. Like, you can't

play."

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm like, "Oh, no.

>> We're that that's not an option. Like,

we're playing." And I remember telling

them as I left for the game in such a

state I just I'd probably never been

quite like that

>> that I promised him. And I said, "Look,

if we win,

I'll talk to the team doctor. Just tell

them like I'm not something's going on,

but if we lose, I can't There's no place

to to be able to make an exc like an

excuse.

>> Yeah.

>> Mhm.

>> That's just the way my brain was

working. So, we won. I played pretty

well.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, I don't suggest, by the way, that

that's how you prepare, right? But after

the game, I'm sitting in the training

room, towel, ice pack, and I see Reggie,

and he's old. He, you know, he's been

around. He'd been around all the Super

Bowls. He was somebody that like I I

promised my friends that I would do

this, but I didn't want to, you know,

and we won.

>> Yeah.

>> So, like, we're good for a little while,

right?

>> But I did. I pulled them aside. And I

remember back in the corner, the old

Candlestick Park, it was like stuff was

dripping down. It's in the It's a dank

like it's old school, right? And we're

in the back corner and I get kind of

move away from everybody and I'm kind of

almost face nose to nose and I'm like,

"Reggie, I'm going through this thing. I

don't know what's wrong." And I kind of

explain it. And as I'm explaining it, I

see a big ball of a tear, like a big

ball come out of his eye and then drop.

And I I it was kind of like,

did I see it? And then and then another

one. And he hasn't changed his face. He

hasn't changed anything. And I'm like,

"Reggie,

are you crying?"

And he's trying not to like break,

right? He's like,

"I

dealt with so much clinical anxiety I

could hardly get through medical

school."

>> That's what he said. That's what he

said. This is what he I mean as he

answered with a straight like he hadn't

changed his face at all. I had dealt

with and I watching you

instinctively felt that there was

something going on and I feel like I

have it's like malpractice that I didn't

that this is what's had to come to it.

like he felt this

>> incredible pain for as the team

physician that would have and and and

qualified to maybe watch for this kind

of stuff and how and I'm like

>> like I was relieved.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I was cuz I didn't know what was

going to happen. I was like explaining

something was so like total

vulnerability, total weakness it felt

like. Right.

>> And and he's like respond like, "Oh, I I

I blew it."

>> And I'm like Reggie.

>> Yeah. Don't worry about it, bro. Like,

we're like, but he said, "We're going to

get the bottom of it." And it wasn't

maybe two days later, he sent me up to a

child psychologist, psychiatrist, I'm

not sure. And they gave me a test of 10

questions

that would describe things that happened

in your life. And that would be if you

answer yes to eight of them, then you're

kind of undiagnosed childhood separation

anxiety as an adult. And so, I was nine

of them, right? Like so. But he said,

"Most people, Steve, who have this going

on in their life,

>> they're like selfmedicating, right?

They're in the basement. They're like,

you know, but you're the MVP of the NFL.

So, I think we're just going to let you

keep rolling." You know what I mean? And

find your way through it. I did find

solace in the knowledge

>> recognizing what had h because until

that point I had subconsciously always

known that I didn't like being in other

people's houses when I was a kid or you

know in other places where but my life

was so full and

amazing that I just kind of we just made

made our way

>> and so this is a point where now book

ended with Stephven CVY maybe three

weeks later

>> like these are pretty

>> vital big changes that happened that I

think allowed me the place to kind of

find

peace about it all. And so was the the

diagnosis in itself

the treatment in the respect that you

finally had a label to apply a way to

>> think about it so that it wasn't this

nebulous set of worries or what allowed

you I guess to go back to

>> was actually super cool because I didn't

think about it as a stigma like I

thought about it as like oh

>> that makes sense you know

>> and then as I told my parents, we found

out that like in my mom's side of the

family, this is a thing.

>> Yeah.

>> And explained all kinds of craziness

that was going on that now go, "Oh,

>> now the piece."

>> So now I could pay it like it paid

forward. You know what I mean? So in its

own way, that was the the knowledge was

the key.

>> And then because I was functioning

through it like it was it was it was

helpful. Didn't make

>> playing in front of 80,000 people and

trying to be a great player. It didn't

make it simple. Mhm.

>> But I think it was a piece to the puzzle

for me

to recognize that what I what I

experienced as a kid.

>> Mhm.

>> Then you could kind of put into context.

>> For sure.

>> You know, a knowledge is power, right?

>> I remember maybe it was 2 years ago.

I wanted to do this experimental

treatment that's actually not some so

far from where we're sitting, right?

We're sitting here in Palo Alto and

they're in Sunnyville. But I was doing

something called accelerated TMS. So, I

won't bore you with all the details, but

it's this medical treatment and they had

to put me through all these assessments

beforehand.

>> Is it red light? What

>> it's called? Acacia clinic, and they

apply a magnetic coil basically to your

brain

>> or to your skull.

>> And the long and short of it is it

produces a type of stimulation that is

remarkably effective for generalized

anxiety, in some cases, depression,

>> OCD. Mhm.

>> And part of them checking the box is for

me to be able to p pursue this, not just

for myself, but to interview scientists

about this on the podcast and hopefully

present more tools to people

>> who might be suffering. They took me

through all these different tests and at

one point after an hour or two, they

took this big pause and they said, you

know, Tim, based on all of this, you

seem to qualify for moderate to severe

OCD. And then he he paused and the the

the doctor was kind of nervous and he's

like, "I know this is a lot to take in.

If we need to take a break and come back

tomorrow and I was like, are you kidding

me?" I was like, "It makes perfect

sense." Like none of my friends would be

surprised.

>> It was just like in retrospect, yeah, it

makes a lot of things click together.

>> And even one of my friends later, he's

like, "Oh man, now knowing that you got

diagnosed makes it so much easier to put

up with your OCD."

>> And I was like, "Okay, I think there's a

risk that maybe you overdefine yourself

by the label." But in my case, I was

just like, "Oh, okay. That's great. Now

I have a shorthand way to piece these

things together."

>> That's exactly how it felt. It was like,

"I got a job to do. I'm about it." I

didn't realize how victimized I had

become and how inauthentic I'd become

and how all that part of it.

>> But at least

>> it all kind of like like you said, my

friend's like, "Oh yeah, I can see

that." You know, my parents like my

dad's like, "I keep telling you just go

have fun."

>> Yeah.

>> And you're not having any fun. Like

like, "Oh, now I get it." So that way it

was it was useful in that way. I feel

like again what are we here to do? Learn

and grow. Like that's okay.

>> Let's go. Let's grow through it, right?

And

>> and I still to this day find myself like

the the anxious parts have all kind of

abaded. But

>> the pattern as a kid, I'm realizing now

how you achieve, how you accomplish,

what's the root of how you try to do it.

And I was doing it in a fear-based way,

>> right?

>> Like in other words, if I worry about

something that's important to me enough,

I can make it happen.

>> It's magical thinking in a way, right?

Like if I worry and work and Fred and

something good will happen like in my

life. And if you think about all the

good in your life,

>> did it come because you worried about

it? Probably that's the wrong dynamic.

Yeah. But it takes again this

vulnerability and authenticity to kind

of say over my life I've now realized

watching good things happen and like I

didn't even worry about it.

>> Yeah. something good happened and I

didn't have to author it by some crazy

amount of and so it's like life is so

crazy amazing in that way where the

onion unraveling like you just learning

is so powerful to your life and

and again you can't get there unless

you're willing to say it's okay.

>> Yeah,

>> it could sting.

>> Yeah,

>> it could hurt. It could hurt for a while

but at least it's what is

>> real. At least it's real. Uh Steve, I

have to ask you about the following.

This is this is the law degree. Over the

course of seven off seasons, he pursued

a law degree at BYU.

Side note, this is this is from the

Bloomer piece. His great

greatgrandfather was Bringham Young

himself. That's wild. I mean, I've spent

a lot of time in Utah. That's maybe a

whole separate chapter for another time.

But why the law degree? Why did you

pursue that? Uh my dad when I was

growing up cuz I had a picture of Roger

Stalach was a famous quarterback for the

Dallas Cowboys on my wall. He'd tell me,

"What do you want to be when you grow

up?" And I'd be like, "I want to be a

quarterback." Like Roger Stackback, look

at my, you know, and he'd go, "Well,

that's a great dream, son. That's a

great dream." And dreams are less than

1% chance,

>> you know, but dreams are important.

>> Like have a dream. Like I love it. Have

it. But that's very unlikely. I need you

to make a plan that's 80% chance.

>> And so I would tell him 80% chance I'll

fake it and tell you that I'll go to

college and then I'll go to law school

>> like you dad and I'll be I'll be a

lawyer.

>> Okay. So your dad was a lawyer.

>> My dad's a lawyer.

>> And I kind of liked what he you know he

described law and I was like I think I

could do that. So then I would tell him

that he goes you know I think there's an

80% chance that you can do that.

>> So that'll be the plan. That's a plan

and now we have a dream and a plan. He

was always about that. even he turned 90

in February and I recently asked him

like so what's the dream dad you know

because he always you like 110

>> you know like he has it in his mind yeah

like that's the dream

>> so then I had a dream and a plan

>> so then I go to college and I end up

going you know pro and

>> and I'm like the dream comes true right

I'm like dad

so much for 1% bro it's 100% now you

know and then he would always say well

what average career is three years, you

know, and then I played for six years.

And I and he's like, "Well, what are you

going to do the rest of, you know,

you're going to retire at 35 and then

what? You got another half of your life.

What are you going to do?"

>> So, he just kept,

>> you know, kind of put in my head,

>> dog with a bone. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, it wasn't I didn't bother me

because I knew it was pretty true what

he was saying. Like, what are you going

to do with the rest of your life?

>> And so, it got I don't know how it got

in my head. I look back on that as like,

Tim, that's that's that's just stupid to

try to go to law school while you play.

Like, that's just dumb. But I figured it

out with the ABA with the law school

because the first semester in law school

is in the fall nationwide. The first

year curriculum is sequential. You can't

cheat it. And they worked it out where I

could audit the second semester one

winter. If I pass the classes cold, then

that would qualify me to come back and

take the second semester, blah blah blah

blah. So over seven years, six for

credit semesters,

I went back and what was funny now, but

wasn't funny at the time, is we went to

three Super Bowls in that time. And the

Super Bowl is in February, you know, end

of January, February. School starts

right after the new year. So I'm showing

up a month late and no one in law school

cares. you still got to do the work. So

I remember going the parade down Market

Street in San Francisco and jumping on a

plane, the Delta plane back to Salt Lake

City at like evening and then the next

morning in class and every class the

five first, you know, whatever class I

usually five or six classes, every class

at Socratic method, they walk in and

they say, you know, Miss Jones, can you

please brief us on blah blah. The whole

day was Mr. young, could you please keep

us? So, I'm just scrambling trying. But

I think I loved that in a weird way, but

I look back, I was like, what are you

doing, man? What are you doing? But my

dad was right. I'm now 25 years in

private equity.

>> And the only way I was able to cut the

line being late to the party was because

I had an advanced degree.

>> That's how I did it. And so, he was

right.

>> Yeah. It served its purpose. dream and

plan.

>> All right. So, you're doing, you know,

these seven off seasons, you're flying

back, parade, get on a plane, fly back,

next morning, Mr. Young, right? So,

you're doing that. How do you make the

hop to finance? How does that even

materialize? Yeah. Okay. So,

you got to remember the 49ers

in 1988

were given land in Santa Clara by the

city of Santa Clara because there's

nothing going on down there to build a

training facility and try to attract

more business. And it's funny now

because Silicon Valley, you know, you

know, Santa Claras, middle of this, like

it is the epicenter of of Silicon

Valley.

>> And so that's where I worked all the

years. And so as we worked and watched

the explosion of Silicon Valley and

technology, we're sitting in the in the

locker room and there's five or six of

us, the lunch group that we would figure

out, okay, look, how do we get in on all

this venture investing, all this stuff

that's going on, all these businesses,

guys were leaving Stanford business

school, literally in the middle of class

would get a text or something and they

would take the CEO job of a new startup

and walk out. You know what I mean?

>> And so how do we get in the middle of

it? So we started trading access to the

locker room from these guys on Sand Hill

Road for venture investing. So we

started to get everything they did. We

give them $50,000 of what they were

doing. We spread it out.

>> How did that relationship happen?

>> Well, it doesn't seem like the ven

diagrams would totally overlap.

>> Well, no, because like Doug Leone was a

great guy.

>> He's one of the greats.

>> He was one that said, "Look, we didn't

make a trade." Yeah.

>> It wasn't a transaction. It was more

like, "Hey, we'd love a relationship.

Come in the locker room. be a part of

our life and let us be a part of your

life essentially. And so he was somebody

that I think really appreciated the

complexity of what we were doing and the

high function that we were doing and

then we obviously appreciated the high

function and complexity of what he was

doing and so we shared in that and I

think that that was that started a

process. I was asked by Brian Maxwell,

who's now passed away, but he started

Power Bar.

>> That was a meal replacement for

marathon, right? I remember back. But

for a single guy, that was my it was

meal replacement like not for marathon

for like day to day, right?

>> And so I kind of got famous around the

Bay Area that I was power. He asked me

to be on the board and and I was like,

well, I never done that before. I'll try

that. first board meeting, Larry

Sanscini, one of the

>> Yeah.

>> Like

Silicon Valley.

>> So when I first moved, just for people

who don't recognize, so back in the day,

Wilson Sancini were kind of the

connective tissue

>> behind the scenes for Silicon Valley.

They were one of the big

>> it was the backbone of the legal

backbone. And then Warren Helman of

Helman and Free like Warren Helman's

like icon of

>> investing in the late 90s.

>> Yeah. and really his whole life he's he

is the icon. So there's two of them and

I'm sitting in the board and

>> I mean your list is pretty insane.

>> It's insane. Yeah. How does this happen?

And so

>> I had a guy I'm glad this is long form.

I had a I had a friend in college who

was messing around with the URLs before

the internet was shut down by the

government. You could go in and he had

an algorithm where he'd put a geographic

boundary around an internet search. And

if you're old enough to know in the '9s

the internet was a mess. You put in

PaloAlto Hammer.

>> Yeah.

>> You'd get like a USSR sickle.

>> Yeah.

>> Like you'd get like nothing made sense.

But with this enablement, you could put

in PaloAlto hammer and get the local Ace

Hardware store. Yeah.

>> So that made it useful. And so we had

that enablement. My buddy was doing it.

He was like, "Can you help me?" I'm

like, "So I take it to the board meeting

>> and I'm like, "What do you think about

this?" And they're like, "That works.

You need to start a business that

retailers are panicked right now because

their brick-and-mortar stores are going

to be usurped by Amazon, right?

>> And late 90s, like it's 10 years before

the time, but people are thinking about

it. Take this enablement to them. They

can query their inventory real time

>> and they can drop ship it that day and

someone can pick it up. They could you,

you know, it's like it becomes your

distribution point.

>> And I'm like, ah. So we went and did

that and my longtime partner who 30

almost 30 years together left his

banking job at Morgan Stanley to be the

CEO of this business called found.com.

>> What's your partner's name?

>> Rich Lawson.

>> How did you meet this? I just love these

stories. And I want to just take a quick

sidebar for folks

because

>> this is a great example of going to

where the action is

>> in the sense I just had a conversation

with Bill Gurley, legendary venture

capitalist.

>> Yes.

>> And he's got a book that might be out by

the time this is published, but it's

coming out soon called Running Down a

Dream.

>> And in it, he has a chapter on going

where the action is. Bob Dylan going

from Minnesota to New York City,

>> right? And you can kind of go down the

list. And in this case, it's like you

you happen to be right in the epicenter.

>> And again, I wish I was Bob Dylan and

had the smarts to go from Minneapolis to

the action in Silicon Valley, but I

actually

>> luckily

>> Yeah.

>> was already here like just sitting here.

I actually watched the traffic get worse

and worse.

>> Like where is all this traffic coming

from? Like I used to get to work in 10

minutes. Now I get to work in 30. And so

it's like you made fun of the athletic

brain. It's like took a little while to

kind of get it going, but in the end we

were in the middle of it and and I found

myself. So to finish that story,

>> we start a business. Rich is the CEO.

I'm the chairman backed by Excel KKKR

and Bane. It was all of that. And so

that's when Warren and Larry Sini, who

Larry became a very close friend of

mine, a mentor, still is. I mean,

really, it still is. I mean, he's just

an amazing guy. He's like, "Steve, I'm a

lawyer. You're not. You need to go do

this."

>> And that's how it switched.

>> Oh, I see. He said, "I'm a lawyer." And

he is saying that referring to

>> He just said, "Look, your EQ and the way

you look at the world." And I had

graduated in finance. So, I was like, I

knew enough to be d not not even

dangerous, but knew enough to what it

really was about. He said, "You need to

go help people build businesses."

>> And, uh, that's kind of how it switched.

I'm looking right over your shoulder at

looks like maybe a tweet from Rich

Lawson, your partner says, "Very proud

to break into the top 20 of 500 plus

private equity firms globally in just

over the decade." Da da da da da. Okay.

So, I mean, you've had these these

multiple chapters.

How did you connect with Rich Lawson?

That's actually you can see Rich Lawson

right there. So, perfect timing. How did

you manage to Let's back up because what

you're alluding to I think is that what

we've been talking about really for the

whole time is transition.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> The difficulties like because I love

football and I was very successful at

it. I run into a lot of people who

played in high school and loved it like

if they the dream like they would give

their arm or leg to be able to play in

college and keep the dream going. And I

always think about how when I left the

game,

it wasn't necessarily forced, but you do

age out like it just sooner or later.

Even Tom Brady aged out at 45. Like it's

a young man's game. The day I retired, I

was known for this thing that I had been

able to do worldwide. Even the next day,

I remember waking up and now that that's

gone.

Now what? Yeah. Yeah. And what I've

learned about transition that leads to

Rich Lawson,

how I describe it, that everyone and

even the high schooler that the last day

they play and it has to be put away

needs to recognize and treat it like a

death

to mourn it and go through all the steps

of mourning it and and burying it and

actually having it as a place that you

can keep referring to as almost like a

grave site like you because otherwise

you carry it around

>> and it never gets you never transition.

Transitioning is about actually moving

from to right. And so I'm really

grateful my Roger Stack poster on my

wall. I got to know him.

>> He became a friend. Like he like it's

insane.

>> Yeah. How cool is that?

>> And and he famously transitioned

probably the most successful transition

in history of the NFL.

>> What did he transition to? He did the

stallback company was a real estate

business that he was hugely successful.

And I remember asking him towards the

end of my career, Roger, what do I give

me some tips? He goes, run.

I'm like, run where? He goes, just run

away. That was his tip. Because he said,

the game will never leave you, but you

need to leave it. You need to move on.

And I thought that was just simple, but

really important. And I tell people

today and I really want to write a book

about transition. Yeah.

>> Because everybody is constantly

transitioning whether they like it or

not. Most of it forced, right? But if

there's a authentic, vulnerable way to

transition and bury and mourn, you can

wake up the next day, realize I was

great at something and now I'm not even

good at anything else. But you know

what? I'm going to

>> learn and grow.

>> We're going to learn and grow.

>> Thought I'm slow, but I'm getting there.

I'm only twice as dumb as I was.

>> Useful.

>> What did morning football look like to

you? What did running from it look like

and what did morning

>> It's funny. So lead to Rich. So as we

built this business and I was still

playing, I was getting ready to run and

I was already running away from it even

before it was over. I think there was a