Only in Serbia somebody could give you a

bolarakia because you hit his car.

>> This is Ralph. 15 years ago [music] he

moved from the Netherlands to Serbia

where he married a Serbian wife and

opened a bike rental business in

Belgrid. Today besides renting bikes he

also [music] runs yoga tours tours

around Belgrid in an old zasta by

exploring Yugoslav monuments and

architecture. He shared how Kafana

explains life in Serbia, the main

lessons he learned from Serbs about work

culture, and how you can find unexpected

[music] warmth here even in the most

unlikely situations. IMO, we have three

Zastava cars which we use to show the

city to to our guests to old. One is

like almost 50 years old and there's a

little bit of slope in front of the shop

here and we put stones uh behind the

wheels to to stop them from rolling

back. So, one of my guides one day, a

few few weeks ago took the stones away

and the car decided to already start

rolling backwards. Uh the handbrake

didn't work. It was in first gear, but

it just didn't want to stay and we

couldn't do anything. It was just

rolling in front of our eyes and it's a

very busy street here and we just saw it

going on the street. it would be a huge

traffic accident. Luckily, some guy just

turned here on this parking and it

ramped the car in the front and it also

scratched uh another car. Anyway, long

story short, the guy uh who we hit, we

gave some money and it wasn't that big

damage luckily. And then the other car

that was parked here and it's was

scratched pretty badly. Uh the guy

wasn't there, the owner. So, after an

hour or two, uh I was working in my shop

and I saw him getting into his car. He

didn't even notice it was scratched. And

I came came to him. I said, "Sir, sir,

uh, sorry, you know, I scratched your

car and in my bed Serbian." And the guy

said, "Okay, yeah, what can I do? You

know, the the guy who hit my car is gone

now." He said, "No, no, no." We had to

explain it again. We hit your car. You

know, that's our car there. It hit He

still didn't get it. He said, "You

waited for me. You're coming to tell me

that your you hit my car. You're telling

me?" But instead of getting angry and

and everything, he opened the hood of

his car, the back of his car, got out a

bottle of rakia and gave us a bottle of

rakia because we were so honest to tell

him that we damaged his car. Only in

Serbia somebody could give you a bottle

of rakia because you hit his car. This

Dutch couple came to Ralph's place to

take a tour around Belgrit in one of the

zast ofas. Of course, I asked them about

the biggest shock in Serbia and the

answer really shocked me too. Did you

have any cultural shocks here?

>> There's one. People are waiting for the

red light.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Before uh crossing the streets.

>> Before crossing the streets. Yeah. In

the Netherlands a red light is more like

an advice. Like we advise you to stop

but

>> basically everybody just walks on. And

here people wait

>> up until the green light and then they

walk. That's Yeah, that's a cultural

show.

>> Being akisette.

Do you think it's kind of a status here?

>> Well, it's like the golden ticket. I

even tell my Serbian friends, you know,

sometimes they should just act like

they're foreigner and saying they're

serette because, you know, it will in a

kafana it will give you free get you

free rakia. You know, if they know

you're gizette, the waiter will go.

I don't know why, but [laughter]

uh I was stopped a few times uh with the

because I broke traffic laws, you know,

speeding, but I never got a fine, you

know, as soon as soon as I pulled out

the the golden surfette card, they would

say, "Oh, wait, your surf kiset. Ah,

then it's okay. Then you can go." you

know, they they think either we're one

I'm one of them, you know, or they feel

so sorry that I married a Serbian wife

and [laughter]

they feel like, "Oh, I'm so sorry that

here I have Iraq." Yeah. Don't pay the

fine.

>> Was it difficult to overcome cultural

differences between you and your wife in

everyday life?

>> Well, I don't know if we overcame all of

them. [laughter]

I think there's some cultural

differences you just have to accept and

live with. For one thing, there there is

enuties.

I think Balkcon thing uh where people

are so stubborn is not logical anymore.

It hurts themselves. And I don't know if

it's my wife uh because she is a woman,

if it's uh because she is Serbian or

because it's her character or it's me,

you know, because I'm not a nice guy or

something. But sometimes this enut comes

up or this this fights come up and I say

like this is not logical. Why are you

doing this? Stop it. And she will just

continue with it. You know, in Holland,

we don't care so much how we look. You

know, it's it's okay just to wear your

old clothes. And for my wife, it's very

different. You know, she she wants me to

to look okay when I go on the street.

Yesterday, we were in the in the

elevator going from the ground floor to

our apartment. So, we saw nobody, but

still, you know, I had to tuck in my

shirt in my she just automatically she

says, "Hey, tuck in your shirt." Like,

[snorts] "Hey, we're in elevator.

There's nobody else here. You know,

we're at home." I but basically as with

working culture I learned a lot from it.

Uh I learn a lot from family culture and

everything. For example, you have how

how important family is. You know,

family comes on the number one place

above everything. Uh above work uh above

friends. Sometimes it's it's irritating.

You know, you don't want to spend so

much time on family or go to your

funeral of a auntie of a cousin which

you never seen, but you have to go

through all this trouble. Um but you do

it because it is family and it's very

big extended family and that's how it's

a it's a whole system kept in place. I

mean weddings of three 400 people you

can you can't imagine in Holland you

know in Holland you might invite 80

people but 20 for the wedding itself and

then uh there's a reception with 30

other friends kind of and then you

invite another 15 for the dinner because

you're not going to pay dinner for our

80 people, you know. No, it's all going

to be too expensive. And you know, very

regulated, on the money, uh, you know,

not thinking, hey, this is the greatest

day of my life. I want all my friends

and family to spend three days of

partying with me like it happens here

sometimes.

>> You have witnessed Serbian wedding.

>> Yes. Yes. Several. Yeah. Yeah.

>> I was I was shocked when I discovered

that they have this custom of shooting

the tree.

>> I'm still waiting for my moment that

that somebody will give me that gun and

shoot the apple because I got married.

But uh we didn't do it in a traditional

way. We did it quite quickly. So I hope

to do it once big and and and shoot a

gun because you know for a Dutch guy

it's great to shoot a gun you know once

in your life like shoot an apple. But um

yeah know all the customs are are crazy.

I've been to really traditional ones you

know.

>> What shocked you the most? I think first

of all the amount of people invited you

know I've been been on weddings with 400

people like crazy you know and they're

all eating and drinking and they they

start in the morning at 10:00 and I I

remember one wedding it was really big

it was in Anjel we were there at 10:00

in the morning already in a big hall and

you know people were already eating and

and drinking raia full speed you know

and then the kum he came in with a you

know a poor pick a full pig you know

dead but like [laughter] a bomb put it

in front of the the couple like, "Yeah,

here's my gift, you know." And then

everybody was drunk and we drove in this

caravan with, you know, all the cars uh

with the gypsy band with trumpets in the

car as well to get the bride and there

they started shooting. Yeah. But I know

there's a tradition, I don't know if you

heard about it, but the next day um

there somebody should climb on the roof

of the house of the newly wet couple. I

think it's the kum and start demolishing

the roof, throwing the towels on the

ground and the couple comes out and

starts offering him money to stop. I

haven't seen it myself because I haven't

been there, you know, the morning after

the wedding night, but [laughter] I hope

it won't happen to me. But so this is

also a tradition.

>> Okay. Kafana. Uh what what my favorite

topic.

>> Yeah. What what makes uh it so

attractive for you? Do you have uh in

Holland uh something that resembles

kafana? No, you you have something like

a bar, traditional bar. We call it brown

bar because everything is dark brown

wood and they start drinking there at

10:00 in the morning, you know, and just

talking about life and everything. But

there's no food. So, it's it's

absolutely nothing to do with the kafana

actually. I mean, the only thing is that

it's old and traditional and people

drink. But Kafana is a completely

different institution altogether. You

know, I I can't see that working in in

Holland or other any other country for

that matter. My own explanation is the

mix between the Austrian influences here

from the past and the Ottoman

influences. Kafana reminds me on the one

hand of this coffee houses in Vienna,

these grand coffee houses with big art

on the wall and it's quite luxurious and

fancy ladies drink their coffee there.

And then in in Turkey in Istanbul, you

will have the small coffee houses where

only men sit and they smoke all day and

drink their tea. I think these

influences come together in the kafana.

They're not these small coffee houses

like in Turkey, but they are more like

in shape the big gr cafes in from

Vienna, but you know the men are sitting

in it and smoking and talking about

politics like they do in Turkey. So for

me that's the the cultural explanation

of a kafana. Yeah, for me it's it's the

essence of of of the Balkans and of

Serbia and of Belgrade. Everything comes

together there. The joy, the sadness.

After a funeral, you go to the nearest

kafana. There's always kafana next to a

graveyard. With a wedding, you go to the

kafana. Uh when somebody is born, you go

to the kafana. So, it's joy, it's it's

sadness, all these emotions come there.

Uh it's hospitality because you always

been treat are treated really well by

the waiters. It's the food which is, you

know, essential for Serbia and for the

Balkans is great food. It's the drink of

course the raka and the beer that's

flowing unlimitedless you know unlimited

and then there's the singing which is

bringing back going back to that culture

of of togetherness and maybe the family

everybody knows at least 10 maybe 50

Serbian songs there's not one song you

can sing in Holland that everybody knows

you cannot go into a bar and start

singing a song that people know from A

to Z you know and here you can just

start any song and people will sing it

>> you to sit somewhere for hours and hours

in a basically a restaurant, but uh long

after you finish your food, the waiters

won't kick you out or the waiter. Uh

sometimes you don't even have to eat. Uh

sometimes after 2 hours, somebody else

will start eating. So there's this

freedom or just not not strict rules

like in a restaurant, you sit and you

know, you eat your food and then go

again. It's a social thing, you know. I

can spend hours in a cafana, you know.

It's it's fantastic. They always close

too early. I don't know doesn't matter

to what is the closing time a kafana

will always close too early you know

because you're always in a discussion I

never left the kafana before closing

time [laughter] because yeah there's no

closing time in that atmosphere you're

just you know all together and and

speaking

>> what is your favorite kafana in Belgrade

>> they're disappearing you know they're

disappearing and some lose their

character kalanich was a brilliant

kafana just old school near kalanich in

brchar but they the quality went down

and the prices went up so I don't go

there. There's kafanas that been totally

transformed and modernized. Horrible. So

I think mourina

these are some old school places that

didn't change in interior uh in menu in

in atmosphere. Last night I was in

Kotraana. It's a wooden shack in New

Belgrade between the blocks and

fantastic food, great waitresses,

elderly ladies who run the place for I

don't know how long. I don't like the

polished ones. I like the ones with the

least decoration, so to say, where all

about the food and the people.

>> It's Tito.

>> Yeah, it's Tito. Yeah, I think we have

to buy a new calendar, but uh this is

2024, so a few more months. Still people

buy them apparently, not just me. Uh we

have a map of Yugoslavia. Here we have

our This is our business card. It's also

detail on the Yugo tour. And

>> what's the medal?

>> Uh the medal is was a championship for

rowing. We rented some bikes to a German

or Dutch rowing team and they won and

they were so happy with the bikes that

they gave us a medal.

>> As a student or even as before studying

when I was 16 15 I started traveling to

Eastern Europe uh with friends uh just

to discover it. It was still a bit

unknown uh in in the west of Europe. We

were told at school uh that uh it was

very scary there in Eastern Europe. You

know I'm talking about the 80s. I'm born

in 1977. So it was still there was a big

wall somewhere in Europe and behind that

wall everything was in black and white

literally everything was gray people

were not nice they had a bomb and they

want to throw it on us that's how we

were educated in the cold war you could

say and uh I want to find out for myself

and I discovered that everything was in

color people are very nice nobody they

want to hurt us was it emotionally

difficult for you to overcome these uh

stereotypes that you had uh in Western

Europe about Serbia when you came here.

>> I I traveled already in Eastern Europe.

So you you maybe the first time I don't

remember that so good, but the first

time I went there I was probably more

afraid or a bit more cautious. Let me

put it that way. Like okay, you know,

you only hear the bad story. So what can

I expect? But you know soon enough uh

you you lose that caution or you see

that people are just just you you know

and and even friendly and you know uh so

I think the first time in when I came to

the Balkans I I I lost that tension a

bit you know I traveled so much already.

It was a very different period than now.

You know it was 2004. I also traveled to

to Kosovo where you know it was a very

tense situation uh with a lot of

militaries on the street. So that was

quite uh new to me. But at that point I

was studying sociology and international

relations and I studied a lot about

communism and the fall of Yugoslavia and

so I think it it was very interesting

for me more than scary. Uh I didn't have

that uh you know prejudices that that a

lot of people maybe had.

>> Do you remember any particular moment

when you realized that it's safe here?

>> Well I never saw so much military in my

life. It felt pretty [laughter] safe.

The first tank I ever saw was was here,

you know, but that was back then. You

know what you have your cautious like I

said in the beginning, especially when I

was traveling to Eastern Europe and I

remember we were staying at some

campsite with some friends outside some

town in the middle of nowhere and some

guy just offered us a ride to the train

station where we had to go instead of

taking a taxi. And as Dutch guys who,

you know, we were like, I know what's

we're going to get in this, you know,

broken down old Mercedes with this big,

you know, unshaved Eastern Balk Eastern

Eastern European guy, you know,

everything from the from the movies

like, should we do this? Is this safe?

Will he, you know, dump us somewhere and

steal our passports or something? I

remember that moment. And he just drove

us to the station and we wanted to offer

him money, you know, and he didn't want

to take the money. It was just

friendliness and that was maybe a moment

like that. like you think oh like all my

you know the thoughts and the images you

have in your head are are not right

you're confronted with your own you know

prejudices

>> how Serbia has changed during the time

that you've been here

>> well I can't tell the change over 20

years it's because it changes every day

almost and that's what I'm that what

makes it for me very interesting you

know there's uh it's changing in in a

good way you could say in one way you

know economically there's really less

poverty And a lot of people are leaving

better than 20 years ago. I see as a

sort of yugo nostalgic person that I am,

you know, I find Yugoslavia very

interesting. I find that period very

interesting uh politically uh but also

in a design way or in a matter of life.

So I see that disappearing you know I

see less zustavas on the street. I see

old kafanas which I love disappearing.

Uh so a lot of traces of the past are

disappearing and what you see in a place

like the Netherlands where I'm from

people preserve the past a lot you know

they do a lot of trouble to to keep old

buildings uh standing and renovate them

and everything they pay a lot of

attention here on that there and uh here

it seems sometimes the opposite you know

old buildings even protected buildings

being demolished just to place a new

building so I think um maybe It's a

result of the urge of uh uh going

forwards. You know, uh the Balkans has

been on a standstill during the '90s

because of the troubles here. Maybe they

tried to catch up and there's

development that goes very quick and the

old is not cared about. you know, it's

like let's get out with everything

that's old and and place replace it with

something new, which as a nostalgic

person like me, what attracted me also

maybe in the first place, you know, that

everything is a bit older and not

everything is modern and developed and

it's different here, you know, uh

[snorts] that's that's a big change that

you visually uh see. This car is an old

one from 1977

and uh it's still function and still

running and uh yeah we keep them up to

date and uh we use them like a time

machine you know to get the real

experience and feel of how was it living

in Yugoslavia

>> and well as we go into the car you might

feel surprised how comfortable the car

is as most of our tourists do. So let's

come right in.

>> My first ride in Zastava. Okay. Uh the

handle's a bit shaky.

>> Yeah. The thing is right now you're with

me in the front but people like to sit

most in the back because there's no seat

belt in the back

>> and well you know people feel the

freedom like oh man when I was a kid I

was driving in one car like this we

didn't have to put seat belts and

everything so

>> yeah yeah

>> it's a bit gives you more freedom let's

say

>> it's so you know

mechanic

>> oh yeah tell me about it the first time

I drove it this power steering thing you

know it's like you don't need to go to

the gym afterwards you worked uh in NGO

when you first came to to

>> Balkans. What we were doing basically uh

was helping young people starting their

own business. Uh this was uh back then

uh the way uh in Holland was fought

about helping people in uh postconlict

areas as it was still named this area.

How do we help people? Not to by sending

just money or building schools or

something. No, but to help people help

themselves, you know, by starting

businesses and everything. We were

working with local people, a lot local

colleagues. Uh we didn't want to come in

as a bunch of foreigners who did

everything. So, we we really had the

team local was bigger than the team from

Amsterdam where we were. Our goal was to

help young people start their own

business. But our hidden agenda you

could say or our secondary goal was also

to teach our local colleagues how to

organize and how to work in a western

way you could say or whatever just to

how how to work good that emails should

be answered directly that you should

organize and plan ahead and all these

yeah things that is very normal for us

in Holland but not necessarily here but

to my surprise I was actually learning

just as much from the work work ethics

here which we didn't

And I think that is in general a thing

uh in in richer countries or more

developed countries, western countries,

they have a kind of we could almost call

it arrogance, but because they're richer

and more developed, they think their

their work ethics are the absolute best.

And uh that's why they want to teach

others, tell others how to do it in this

best way. But it's not always true or

there it's not an absolute truth. Uh you

can learn a lot from work ethics from

other places too. So I learned to you

know don't take everything so s

seriously uh have a meeting with a

coffee on a terrace and not you know

plan a meeting three weeks ahead in a

special room reserve it for that

meeting. No you can do the things in a

more relaxed way so to say and enjoy

enjoy work more uh don't be don't be the

robot and the machine you know to to get

to the goal but also make getting to the

goal a more pleasant experience so to

say. I brought a lot of that work ethics

back to Holland and sometimes it went

wrong there because I wanted to have a

coffee with people you know on a terrace

in Holland but they didn't understand

that you know what you also see is

sometimes with foreign NOS's or foreign

companies they try to bring the system

they use at home uh here and try to

implement it here but that's that's uh

also very hard and I learned that for

instance in the Balkans it's hard to

plan anything but it's super easy to

arrange something I remember we had some

And uh it was in Macedonia I think and

we it was in a half a year. So we tried

to find a transport company, a bus

company to to work for us on that day, 6

months later, but there was no company

that could make an agreement. Oh, in 6

months we will be the there and there

and there on that spot. In Holland, you

could do that. Of course, you can plan

things two years ahead if you want. But

we had to wait like for three days

before the event, you know, and then

call the company and say, "Hey, do you

have a bus free?" you know, oh yeah, we

can do it. Uh, [snorts] and there was a

lot of these uh kind of emergency or

last minute situations which things you

cannot plan, you know, because they're

just happening which couldn't could not

have been solved in a country like

Holland, but here everybody knows

somebody and has a connection and

everything can be arranged. So nothing

can be planned, but everything can be

arranged.

>> So you had kind of reverse cultural

shocks back in Netherland.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've rolled back

some habits also not just work things

but also hospitality or friendliness or

um you know here men still open the

doors for for ladies because it's nice

or that's how you should do things and I

remember coming back in Holland once

after a few weeks in the Balkans and I

did the same I got used to opening the

door for my female colleague and I just

hit her head very hard because she

didn't see it coming and she didn't

expect me to open the door for her so

[laughter] that was really a culture

clash literally you could say not

everything that works there works over

there and and vice versa of course.

>> How did you get accustomed to this kind

of unpredictability to not be able to

plan ahead but to to be able to arrange

everything?

>> Well, I don't give up on planning. I

still try to plan. I work in tourism and

I also I work with foreign clients 99%

of the time and they expect things to be

arranged a year ahead. Sometimes I get

bookings, you know, now already for

something that will happen in September

2026. So I what I can arrange myself I

do, but sometimes you need partners and

I I still try to plan uh but you just

have to be aware that it's not always

plannable and that things might change.

Uh and um be ready for that. Sometimes I

plan things double. you know, I'll if we

keep stick to the the example of uh

organizing transport for a group or

something, I might, you know, organize

two transport companies already a few

months ahead, you know, and then I will

cancel one a month before or something

or something like that. You sometimes

plan things double, you know, just to

make sure that one thing happens. You

also have to, you know, be ready for the

disappointment. Don't go into stress

mode uh when something is canceled last

minute, for instance. And uh I think

well what I learned is you have to

believe a little bit in magic. It sounds

a bit weird. Uh I'm a very rational

business guy. I guess you know when it

comes to business but uh in the 15 years

that I worked here I've been in so many

situations where you think oh no you

know everything is going to fall apart.

This is not happening. And it all, you

know, somehow did happen and it went

well, you know, and our guest uh just

didn't notice anything of all the things

that went back bad on the background.

And I I really started to believe in

kind of magic like, you know, how does

how does it always work out, you know?

>> Okay, we have customers.

>> Yeah, good. Okay. Hi. Hello.

>> Uh we have an interview here, but uh I

can help you if you uh if you want to

rent the bike, maybe. Yeah, we want but

unfortunately I forgot for all my

documents.

>> No problem. You can leave your wife here

and you can rent the bike and then when

you come back you can get your wife

back. [laughter]

>> No, not a good deal. The other way

around.

>> No, no, no. It's it's okay. Uh you can

rent a bike. Do you have maybe some

photo of your passport or something like

that? Then we'll just do that.

>> Personally, I got the impression that

Belgrade is not bike friendly city. How

did you get this idea to open here a

bike rent?

>> I am from Holland so we always bike. We

a bit naive I think you know or I was

and I I see that with other Dutch people

coming here as well. We can just think

we can bike anywhere. So as long as you

don't think it's impossible, it's

possible. You understand? Uh people who

grow up here think probably okay it's

not possible to bike or it's unsafe so

you won't bike. But if you're stupid

enough and come from Holland and you

don't know that, you just start biking

and it is possible. I I I ride my bike

every day through the city and I'm not

an extreme good biker or something. And

you just have to learn to be aware that

people don't expect you because there's

not so many bikes on the streets. Uh I

always tell people from countries where

biking is more normal. Then just know

that people don't watch their right

mirror in their car when they turn

right. they don't expect the bike to

come and if you follow these little you

know tricks if you just look out for the

other as well uh it's pretty possible to

bike not everywhere of course um but

yeah I came here in 2011 and um I I I

was missing bike tours here because

everywhere I would go on holiday and to

a city like Barcelona or Rome I would

always first do a bike tour uh and

that's way you can see a lot of the city

of a big city in a short period of time.

And for me, there was always a good

basis for starting uh exploring a city.

And it was missing here. There was no

bike tours at all in Belgrade. So I

thought, why isn't it here? Why

shouldn't I do it? and I could combine

uh my knowledge about biking knowledge

like this because it's just I was born

and raised with cycling because I'm

Dutch and uh share my passion and

interest in uh in the Balkans in uh

Belgrade also in Yugoslavia. I wanted to

live in Belgrade. I want to move here uh

just because I wanted that. There was no

other no really logical reason and then

I had to do something here to make money

and to do yeah this was for me a logical

thing was very illogical for everybody

here to start bike tours so I think uh

bit naivity stupidity and just go for it

mentality I took one month to

get a buy a secondhand bike and I was

just biking through the city I I've been

working in the region for a while I knew

Belgrade a little bit I had friends here

as Well, but I just every day I got on

my bike and got lost. I just biked till

I couldn't bike anymore or you know I

just discovered a whole city every in

and out. That was one of the luckiest

the happiest periods of my life. I think

I had an office job you know and I was

always working for somebody else but

suddenly I had the freedom. I was living

in Belgrade which I loved and I had this

independence and I was riding a bike

every day getting lost discovering you

know all these new places. So I took a

month or something to develop the tours

and um I made some flyers. I made a very

simple website. So I think after two

months of me riding a bike in Belgrade,

I was the number one thing to do above

Kamedon, above St. Saba, you know, Trip

Advisor everywhere. [laughter] I was the

number one thing to do. So

>> what is the most challenging thing for

you in running business in Serbia?

>> I never was faced with any form of

corruption or somebody trying to, you

know, make me pay for something. But I

must say uh one challenge it was

especially at the beginning when setting

up uh bureaucracy wise actually was I

wanted to pay taxes. I started uh I

started with a secondhand bike standing

on the street every day at 2:00 people

would come to me and we would start

biking. They would pay me in cash. I

didn't have any other way to to handle

that. And I went to the tax office. I

say look I start this business. I want

to pay tax. I want to be 100% legal. And

I had to struggle so much to to pay tax.

You know, [laughter]

I went to the tax office six times. They

said, "Yeah, but you you where do you

work?" I say, "Yeah, I work on the

streets." And yeah, where do you make

your payments? Yeah, on the street. You

know, there was no other option for me,

you know. I don't have an office. I have

a laptop. That's my office. But the

system is so old that they don't

understand that you can run a business

without an office, you know. I I don't

you know, I hope they change it now

because now a lot of people work from

their laptop, you know, but back in the

days at least, they didn't understand

that. And they came with an official

answer at after a few months saying,

"Okay, we found the answer. You have to

buy a car, register at a taxi and then

you can uh you know make uh receipts

like a taxi."

>> I said, "I'm a bike company, man. I

don't want to buy a car

>> for you to pay taxes, you know."

>> So that was just complicated. I don't

know. I got some accountant and we

solved it and I'm nicely paying taxes

now.

>> Who are the most challenging customers

to deal with? With no offense, let me

explain this. but ser [laughter]

and that's because they know of course

you're you're telling something as a

foreigner or something as my guides are

all locals but uh when I was still

guiding a lot myself and I was starting

sometimes there would be a Serbian guest

normally bringing foreigners uh on a

tour and they would join themselves but

you would always get in a discussion you

know because I would say the SIF

building the pedals of Serbia would be

built in 1961 and then you know the guy

on the tour from here would say no No,

my grandfather helped building this and

it was 1962 or something. I mean it more

jokingly, but of course they they know

more than you or they have a personal

experience with things as well. That's

also it can also get delicate. Of

course, if you're talking about politics

or even history is not so 100% defined,

especially when you talk about

Yugoslavia or the break up of

Yugoslavia. Yeah, there's a lot of

opinions about it and different

interpretations about what happened. So

if you tell that story to a foreigner

who knows nothing about it, they will

believe what you say. But if you tell it

to people from the region for instance,

yeah, they might have something else

other opinion uh about it. I'm not

saying it's uh not nice. It's actually

nice because you learn from it uh

sometimes and this interaction is great,

of course. So it makes it much more

interesting than just telling your story

and everybody saying yes, I believe you.

Has the influx of Russians somehow

influenced your business?

>> Well, it influenced it um in kind of a

positive way because the people from

Russia that moved to Belgrade in the

past years, there's a lot of cyclists

there much more than Serbians actually.

I don't know, they live here and they're

not the typical tourist uh but they want

to go for a longer ride for instance and

want to rent a good bike for for that.

We had a lot of families with young kids

uh suddenly. So I noticed I had to buy

more kids seats uh because of Russian

families uh coming. These are small

things but that's how I noticed.

>> How do you estimate the influence of

Russians who came here after 2022 in

general? You know, there's a sort of a

general idea like, okay, these Russians,

they all came together almost at the

same time and they stick together and

they made their make their own like city

within the city. You know, they have

their own cafes, uh, uh, shops,

bakeries, hairdressers, everything and

their own services. Um, which is a true

thing. So, you don't meet a Russian on

the street so quickly or in a bar, you

would say, because they stick to their

own uh, crowd. when I meet them here in

my shop personally I got a really

different opinion really nice open

people and we have very nice long

discussions you know or talks and really

friendly so there is this idea that it's

as a community or to me it's a quite

close community uh but the people are

just very friendly and open actually uh

I don't know the historical cultural

sociological explanation for that and if

I'm right it's just my experience but uh

that's how I notice it.

>> Yeah.

>> And I I studied sociology and

international relations. So what's

happening with a move of one group of

people from one country because of

political reasons to another country?

Yeah. It's super fascinating for me to

see this happening. I find it

fascinating that you know you you have

to go leave your your hometown, your

home place uh and leave everything

behind. But you see people starting

businesses here and you know developing

things here. You know, nobody knows how

long you're going to stay here. you

know, probably most people were hoping

it was like a few months and going back.

But yeah, I'm quite uh impressed by the

guys who start and girls who start

businesses at least, you know, I think

they also bring a lot of new stuff, you

know. I think especially the guys from

Moscow and St. Petersburg, it's much

more hip there. I think it's a bit

bigger metropol, of course, the kind of

design they bring in their shops and

everything. Uh the music they bring.

I've been to some festivals with Russian

music and bands which I never would have

seen else and it's very avanguard and

very very cool [snorts] and my maybe my

guiding background you had the same

influx of Russians in 1917 during the

the revolution then it's interesting the

first uh ballet uh performance in in in

Serbia was done then by Russians you

know they brought ballet to to to Serbia

if I'm correct

>> what is the main thing that Serb about

torture.

>> They're different, you know, can be

different and you can be better off on

your side, but it doesn't mean that the

other side is is is bad. I'm thinking of

Holland as a country, as a rich country

and a democracy and everything is

orderly and everybody follows the rules

and nice and we're on top of a lot of

things, you know, in the statistics in

the world, you know, healthiest country,

happiest country, richest country, and

everything. That makes people feel

better sometimes than people in other

countries. And I learned there's that's

just complete You know,

there's nothing to be feeling better

about. You know, people here uh have

just as much uh good things uh speaking

for them uh as as people in Holland and

even more maybe.

>> What is the most valuable thing that you

found in Serbia?

>> Well, I have to say my wife, of course,

cuz you will see this I think.

[laughter]

But it's true. my wife and and uh her

family, you know, is yeah, it's just

amazing for a simple Dutch guy to be

welcomed. Yeah, that makes me feel

special always, you know, to just be

there. And I'm still after 15 years in a

foreigner, you know, and a strange as

they call it. And it still feels like

that also because I'm maybe not speaking

fluently Serbian, you're still outside

or maybe I will always be a bit distr,

you know, and I I don't know. It's maybe

also going back to my Yugo nostalgia

again. Sometimes I can be here in

Belgrade or somewhere else in in the

region or in Serbia driving in one of my

old sustavas

specifically and I nothing reminds me of

2025. But even when you walk drive to a

little town or something and there's

nothing modern, you know, which you see

as a positive thing, not that everything

is old, no, but you know, you're not com

you can go back in time a little bit

like, oh, it's 1970 or 1980, you know.

For me personally, that's a very these

are very nice experience which I can

only find here and not in Holland for

instance. You know, something can be old

for a while. You know, there's still

streets call being called after Tito,

for instance. I I like that. You know,

it's Yeah, it's from the old days, but

it's still there.

>> Do you personally feel Yugo nostalgic?

>> Well, I wasn't born in Yugoslav. It was

already Serbia. I'm much younger than

that. So I can't really feel you

nostalgic but you know I feel u from the

stories of my grandpas and grandmas like

that it was really nice to be there you

know because you you had connections all

over the country everybody was friendly

everything was doing fine and u yeah you

know like I'm friendly with people I

like to hang out so I feel that now

there is a bit of animosity right now

but um for example I do have a friend

from Croatia and One time there was a

Ramstein concert in Belgra and he's a

huge Ramstein fan. So, um, we went to

the concert and, uh, you know, I like

the guy no matter like I'm Serbian, he's

creation, but we do connect, you know,

and, uh, he's a good guy, I'm a good

guy, so why shouldn't we hang out? But,

you know, I I know that there are some

people from Croatia and Serbia as well

that saying like, oh, I would never go

to Croatia. I would never go to Serbia,

you know, and I feel that u it's a

shame, you know, that there is no unity

anymore. [music]

>> [music]