People really care about what's making

them disliked. And they really want to

know how to be liked.

>> Okay. So, first, this is an exercise

that I do in my class at Harvard called

10 questions to fall in like.

>> So, if I ask someone those questions,

they're going to like me.

>> It's a great starting point, but let's

talk about this because they're going to

be little clues about how to be better

liked. And it's the most teachable,

practical, scientifically rigorous

framework in the world for

communication. Do you want to hear about

it, Stephen?

>> Of course I want to hear about it. I

want to be the most persuasive,

influential, likable talker in the

world. So, I shall follow your lead.

>> Oh my gosh,

>> it's a lot of power.

>> I love it. I love it so much.

>> Harvard professor Allison Woodbrooks is

a behavioral scientist

>> who has spent two [music] decades

studying conversational science.

>> And she's revealing the communication

mistakes we all make. The art of

negotiation and how to get anyone to

like you.

>> We all get to adulthood and we feel like

conversation should be easy. But as a

scientist, when you look under the hood,

you realize this is why we have so many

awkward moments, why we say things that

we shouldn't, why we are boring, why we

get angry and hostile. And there's very

clear strategies to help us with all of

that. Like one of my biggest findings

was how we reframe social anxiety

[music] as excitement, which makes you

focus on opportunities rather than

threats. And that paper ended up being

featured in Inside Out, the movie. And

then there's small talk.

>> I hate small talk.

>> I'm going to help you reframe that

because it's really important. But the

mistake that people make is that they

say they're way too long and they need

to move up this topic pyramid.

>> What about in a digital age? Do we need

to start communicating differently?

>> Yeah, there's clear things that we

should do to make our textbased

communication better and we'll go

through all of them.

>> And you said you've done an interesting

study recently about male friendship.

>> Yes. And it's quite troubling.

>> So, how can I make more friends as a

man?

>> Yeah, let's talk about that.

I see messages all the time in the

comments section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way, you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

you.

>> [music]

>> Professor Allison Wood Brooks.

What is it that you do and why do you

think it matters so much to the world?

>> I am a professor at Harvard and I'm a

behavioral scientist. I study how people

talk to each other and how they can do

it better. I teach a course that I

created there called talk. I wrote a

book about it, also called Talk: The

Science of Conversation and the Art of

Being Ourselves.

>> And if someone's chosen to listen to

this conversation now, they've just

clicked on it and they're thinking, you

know, should I stay or should I should I

go? What promise can we give them if

they stay and listen to this

conversation that is based on the work

you've done in your book and all the

research you've done? What is it that

you think the average person can come

away with that will have a meaningful

impact on their day-to-day life? All of

life is about relationships and

relationships are about talking. So if

they can learn even one strategy that

helps them in their conversations, it

will massively improve their lives. If

you think of everything from work to

romantic relationships, friendships,

productivity, all of it hinges on having

excellent conversations.

>> But conversations are easy, right? Like

[laughter] you just talk.

>> We all feel that way. We all get to

adulthood and we feel like conversation

should be easy because we started

learning how to do it when we were one

one and a half years old as toddlers and

we practice doing it with an enormous

number of partners conversation partners

every day of our lives. So by the time

we become adults it feels like we should

be experts like we should be great at

it. But as a scientist, when you look

under the hood and you see, oh my

goodness, all of the complexity that's

happening under the hood, you realize,

oh, this is why we have so many awkward

moments, why we say things that we

shouldn't, why we don't say things that

we should, why we hurt each other, why

we get defensive, um why we are boring,

why we get angry and hostile. And there

are very clear strategies to help us

with all of that.

As you were saying that, I was thinking,

do you think there's a lot of people

that are going through life giving off

the wrong impression because they don't

know how to talk? Maybe they are

disliked. Maybe they are misunderstood

because they haven't mastered the

science of how to have a great

conversation. On my worst days, I worry

that everybody's walking around being

misunderstood. When you think about

talking, even as I'm talking right now,

there's no way to take the entire

contents of your mind and all of your

personality and say it out loud. And so,

we're always curating. We're always

choosing what some subset of stuff to

share with other people through

conversation. And no one is doing that

perfectly. And I and I fear that many

people are are really struggling with

it. If you had to pinpoint just a few

things that people want when they think

about becoming a great conversationalist

like what is it that we actually are

aiming at? Is it to be you know what is

that?

>> Yeah. Usually people want to be liked

even loved. Usually we want to enjoy our

conversations to not have them be

miserable. We want to feel safe and

protected and and not have it be

dreadful and timeconuming. And we want

to achieve professional goals. So

advancing and achieving and making great

decisions. So already the very basic

drives of what people are trying to

achieve in conversation are actually a

little bit more complicated than just

like oh we're looking for connection. Um

and then when you really dig into it

within all of the goals that people want

in those categories, it's like a vast

constellation of of motives.

>> I would like you to teach me how to talk

really really well.

>> I don't know if you need my help that

much, Stephen, but I'd love to. Even the

best communicators have room for

improvement.

>> No, I think I do. I think I [laughter]

do because I, you know, this I was

thinking about this last this last week

and all the conversations I've had, the

different types of conversations. I had

one conversation where I met someone's

family for the first time who works with

me. And it was, you know, it was a

little bit nerve-wracking because

>> that contact, you know, people have have

these moments where they meet the

in-laws or whatever or they meet

>> um for me it's often meeting someone who

works with me's family, I find quite

nerve-wracking because they're like, I

think they're kind of probably judging

me. I've also had difficult business

conversations

>> because they are judging you.

>> Yeah, they are judging [laughter] me and

I can feel it. And as I go towards those

conversations, I'm like, "Oh my god."

And then I end up just like freezing or

being a little bit paralyzed. And you'd

think as someone like me who does this

for a living living finds conversations

easy. I absolutely do not. you I I

actually the more uh you know I talk to

very high level seuite um very

successful people and in fact the higher

and more successful people are the more

likely they are to be aware that this is

really important and that they have room

for improvement. It's almost like you're

aware that this skill is probably what

helped you get where you are and

therefore you want to get even better at

it and you're keenly aware of when you

have awkward moments or make mistakes or

missteps and you're like I would really

like to get that out of my life please.

>> Amen. I like ruminate on an awkward

encounter I had like two and a half

weeks ago. I was like, I should have

just da da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d

d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d

d d d d d but actually in reading some

of your work I thought about what I

could have done and we'll get to this

this idea of preparing for those moments

which I typically don't because I assume

I should be a natural.

>> Can I ask you as you were talking about

these different examples of things that

you're ruminating about? Um, do you feel

like you have a a a weakness or like a a

recurring thing that you suspect you

need to get better at? I think one of

them is I am a bit of an introvert in my

sort of self-classification and as

people know who I am more in the world,

I think I've become more introverted.

>> So, and sometimes that can be perceived

in the wrong way. So, my like happy

state is kind of being alone or around

people that I'm extremely familiar with.

>> If I leave the house and I go say to a

gym or something,

>> I have a little bit of paranoia.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I'm always kind of on edge, which

means that this kind of shuts me down

more. So when I do have conversations, I

can sometimes feel appear to be a bit

more shut down and I don't want to carry

that into moments where I need to be a

bit more open. And then I would say

generally I just like hate small talk.

>> Yeah, you're not alone there.

>> And [laughter] I just say it's like a

point. This is why I think I podcast

because you can just skip straight into

the deep stuff and I can ask people

about their trauma. Like

>> you can do that in normal conversations

too actually. Do you find that you get

stuck in small talk?

>> Yes,

>> a good bit.

>> I just try and avoid it. So I I've got

this funny story. one of the most that

the most prestigious people on planet

earth invited me to come to a thing and

I said no because there would be a

hundred other people there and I just

didn't want to be in a room for four

hours with a bunch of other people like

it just for me it's so exhausting.

>> Yeah.

>> And if I told you that what this context

was you'd burst out laughing [laughter]

and my team were like you go to that

[ __ ] YOU GO

>> AND YOU enjoy it

>> and I'm like no I'm not going there's

[laughter] too many people there. But

that's that's kind of what I'm like. I

love this environment, but I hate small

talk. And I hate

>> I don't know if that's a weakness as

much as it is you learning your

preferences.

>> I think it's okay. Uh maybe we'll get

there, but large groups are very

stressful. Group conversation and

figuring out the structure of like who

should be talking to whom when and about

what is very overwhelming for the human

mind. um it's quite different than one

on intimate one-on-one conversation

which is much more within your control

and it's much clearer what the purpose

is. Um so we should think about it maybe

not a we can reframe it and it's not a

weakness but thinking about your social

portfolio. Who are you talking to? Is it

the right people and are is it in the

right arrangements in the right group

size? So, what we're doing right now

one-on-one is a categorically different

task than going to a party with a

hundred people. So, I'm going to help

you reframe that later on.

[clears throat]

>> Why did you choose to do this? All the

things you could have done with your

life.

>> Yeah, it's Isn't life so fascinating? I

often think about the paths not taken.

Um, but I'm very happy to be on this

path. Um, I grew up in upstate New York

on a small lake in a small town. I was a

late girl, just gorgeous place. And I

love playing sports, team sports in

particular. I love female friendship

from an early age. And probably most

formatively, I'm an identical twin. And

all of the things I just described, I

think, are either

indicators of how much I love

conversation or formed my love of

conversation. But either way, I I

arrived at college deeply interested in

understanding humans and their behavior.

And by the time I got to Harvard, I

realized, wow, there are whole fields

like social psychology and communication

that are purportedly about

communication, but nobody's bothered to

actually transcribe real conversations

and study them at very large scale. And

so that's what I've been up to for the

last 15 years.

>> How has being an identical twin been

formative in this regard? M. So, my

twin's name is Sarah. Um, being an

identical twin, I'm there are many

things that are similar to being a close

sibling, I'm sure. But an identical

twin, it's like you have another version

of you in the world. And we share a

bedroom. We were on the same sports

teams. We played in band together. And

so, it's sort of like watching a version

of yourself up close. And I got to see

how she failed and thought, "Oh, well,

I'm I'm going to avoid that." and I

would see how she succeeds. She hits a

an amazing joke. She answers answers an

amazing question. I know that I'm able

to do that because we have the same DNA,

the same abilities. In a sort of

subconscious way, I think I've just been

chasing trying to help other people find

that in their relationships, uh, in

their friendships, in their romantic

relationships, in their work

collaborations, because I've gotten to

see how amazing that can be for two

human beings, how close you can be and

how much you can actually understand

each other when you communicate well.

>> And what research have you done? Like,

what are the reference points you're

pulling on? Do you do your own research?

>> So much. and give me a flavor of the the

>> Too much probably. I uh it's almost like

I'm a recovering academic. I've been

working in academia doing behavioral

science research for 20 years. I know I

look impossibly young. Um, I started in

graduate school studying emotions,

especially anxiety and and not the kind

of anxiety that requires medication or

therapy necessarily, but the types of

social anxiety that people feel

constantly all day long. And figuring

out, okay, how does it affect different

behaviors like how we negotiate or how

we take advice from each other or how we

perform when we're public speaking? Uh,

these types of things. and then figuring

out strategies and tips to help people

manage that anxiety more effectively.

And one of my biggest findings was how

we reframe anxiety as excitement. Uh

it's a very easy flip to move from it's

essentially they're the same emotion

because they're both high arousal, high

energy, high cortisol, a stress hormone,

um high heart rate, uh sweaty palms. You

just change how you think about it in

your mind. So literally saying things

out loud like I'm excited change how

your appraisal of it. So you actually

experience excitement. It helps you

perform a lot better in a lot of

different ways.

>> So you did a study in 2011 was it?

>> Yes. Yes.

>> The nervous Nelly negotiation study.

>> So that one was about negotiation

specifically the um this excitement

reappraisal. The paper's called get

excited. And that paper actually ended

up being featured in uh Inside Out the

movie.

>> Oh wow.

>> Yeah. There's a great scene where the

main character is about to have a panic

attack and Joy sneaks into the little

cubicle farm of minions and says, "Stop

drawing all of these projections about

how things are going to go badly and

instead draw how things could go well."

Which is so great. And I was sitting in

the movie theater with my kids and my

husband kind of looked down the way and

he was like, "Is that your thing?" And I

was like, "Yeah, yeah, [laughter] yeah,

it's my thing."

>> So, what what did that study show? of

those two studies, the the nervous Nelly

one, but also the the one of excitement.

>> When [clears throat] we feel anxious, as

most people do in negotiations because

it's an intense environment filled with

uncertainty and a lack of control, which

is the recipe for anxiety, we tend we

want to escape. We either want to

relieve that feeling by making

concessions or get out of there, right?

Just exit the interaction. That was the

main finding of the nervous Nelly

anxiety and negotiation paper. The

reframing anxiety as excitement paper is

lots of different ways to convince

yourself that you're feeling excited

just by saying I'm excited out loud. And

in doing so, that makes you focus on

opportunities rather than threats, how

things could go well rather than poorly.

And it has incredible downstream

consequences. Helps you sing better,

helps you do public speaking better, it

helps you collaborate more effectively.

Um, so it's just a very it's a very

powerful intervention.

>> And what was the sort of mechanics of

the study? So, we would have bring

people in. You tell them, "Hey, Stephen,

you're going to be singing karaoke in

front of an audience. People start to

feel quite nervous about this

naturally."

Then, right before they're going to get

up and sing this song, we say, "Okay, an

experimenttor is going to ask you how

you're feeling. Some of you, we want you

to say you're feeling excited, and some

of you, we want you to say you're

feeling anxious." And that alone, when I

say, "Stephen, how are you feeling right

now?" and you say

>> anxious.

>> Great. Okay, let's go sing the song. You

go. People who said I'm anxious sing

worse compared to people who say I'm

excited. They get out there. They're

more in tempo, more on pitch. They have

better rhythm. And we measure it with a

software when they're actually singing

in front of the experimenters.

>> Just by me saying I am excited.

>> Yeah.

>> So the other day when I met my team

members family, I I should have been

saying to myself, I'm so excited to meet

them. among other things. So, so this

and this is important. It doesn't always

work, right? If you're terrified

>> and it's really something dreadful, like

you're terrified that your mother's

going to die and turns out it's going to

be hard to get excited about that if she

has a terminal illness. But on the

margin, if you're sort of torn between

feeling nervous or excited in your mind,

if you can really convince yourself that

you actually are excited and that things

could go well, I'm going to crush this

exam. I'm gonna I'm gonna tear it up on

the basketball court. That flip, if

repeated enough, actually becomes more

likely to come true and certainly before

a high stakes conversation like meeting

your colleagues family.

>> So interesting. I I really I have this

behind the scenes channel um called

Behind the Diary on YouTube and uh the

other day when I did Jimmy Fallon

because it's kind of outside of my

wheelhouse to go on like late night TV

in America and like seven minutes to be

funny or whatever. So I was [ __ ]

myself cuz I'm a very serious guy.

[laughter]

So before I went out, there's a video of

me and I said to my team, what I said to

myself before the little curtain opened

was, "This is going to be amazing. Can't

wait. You've you've like prepared for

this." Then I said all this nonsense in

my head thinking that it was nonsense

and I walked out. I had the best time of

my life. It was it went so great.

>> Great.

>> And I I made a video about that how, you

know, I'm not one to believe in things

that without like rigor and evidence and

I didn't have it.

>> Now you do.

>> Now I do. [laughter] Now we have a study

that proves that it's not.

>> This one is interesting. I think this

was the beginning of my scientific

journey realizing that the way we talk

to other people and the way we talk to

ourselves especially in a repeated sense

if you think about okay you did that

before Jimmy Fallon now what if you do

it before the next time you meet a

colleague's family now what if you do it

before you interview Bill Gates before

you do it right if you then get in the

habit of telling yourself you're excited

and that becomes effective for you it's

incredibly meaningful in accumulation

over time right so just focusing on one

time yes it's helpful but if you can

make it habitual it has this sort of

upward spiral effect on people it was

the beginning of my scientific journey

thinking oh well if we can study one

phrase like get excited or I'm excited

what if we start studying the cascading

unfolding ways that people talk to each

other and not just one line but like

every turn of a conversation no one had

done that before

>> and this negotiation study you did what

was the mechanism for that

>> yeah that was a more class so the the

literature. People have been studying

negotiations for decades now. And

there's a really great negotiation

course at almost every business school

and law school that's based in all of

this rigorous work. What had not been

studied on in terms of negotiating are

people's emotions. It was a it was about

15 years ago that people including

scholars came to the point where we were

like, "Oh, people's feelings matter."

When they feel nervous or when they feel

angry, that's actually important

distinction. how you feel on the inside

versus what you're expressing to your

counterpart. So in this paper, what we

found is as a base rate, most people

feel anxious before and during a

negotiation because it is an intense

environment. It's probably one of the

greatest benefits of taking a

negotiation course is that you just get

reps and so you get more comfortable

with the process of doing it. That might

be the biggest takeaway from doing a

training course like that. And so in

this paper, we had that sort of base

rate. Look, everybody's feeling anxious.

Um, and then what are the downstream

consequences of feeling anxious? And

what we find people, we had people doing

negotiations, playing these negotiation

games. What we find is that people are

much more likely to sort of leave

prematurely or make more concessions to

relieve the feelings of anxiety,

>> make bad offers.

>> Yeah. Or it depends on your goals,

right? If you if your goal is to claim a

lot of value, then making concessions

and giving money away is not going to

help you with that. So, if I'm asking my

boss for a pay rise, for example, and I

and I'm very very nervous, I'm much more

likely to um lower my expectations,

accept a bad offer, and leave the

situation prematurely.

>> Absolutely.

>> So, what do I do about that?

>> Oh, so many things. If we're talking

about asking for a raise, um what you

want is to go in there with as much sort

of personal power as you can, one way to

do that is to get another job offer

somewhere else first. So, we talk about

this as the best alternative to a

negotiated agreement, a BATNA. You want

to strengthen your BATNA. So, if your

boss says, "No, I'm not giving you a

raise." You can legitimately say, "I'm

going to go take this other job offer

cuz I just got a better offer from the

guy down the street."

>> What if you don't want to take the the

other offer?

>> Then you need to be honest with yourself

about how much power you have in the

negotiation. You also probably a lot of

people make the mistake of going in sort

of hands on hips like I deserve more

money. There are lots of questions that

you should ask first to know am I

negotiating with the right person? Does

my company have the funds to actually

give me more money? Why? What? How can I

justify this in a way that's compelling

to them? Right? It's it's not up to you.

It's that they they need to want to keep

you and to feel like you are being

fairly and generously rewarded and all

of that requires asking a lot of

questions before you go in and start

making demands.

>> In that context, how would you try and

persuade me if you work for me? So, what

would you say? Because I do think, you

know, it's very easy to get someone's

backup when you walk in and ask them for

money. Yeah.

>> If you do it

>> 100%. I

it's hard for me to answer this because

um maybe this is sort of my personal

values. It's almost like I'm taking off

my expert hat for a moment. I think the

best way to get a raise is to be

awesome.

Do things that are valuable

and your company is going to give you

more money without even having to ask

for it. So in my heart, this question of

how do we have a conversation where I

ask for more money? It's almost like I I

would hope that you don't even get to

that point. If you are truly making

yourself almost irreplaceable and

incredibly valuable, your boss is going

to be coming to you and saying, "I have

to keep you around. You're amazing.

You're so incredible." That's a much

easier conversation to have than walking

in and saying, "I'm I'm it's not fair. I

don't make enough."

>> I do think that holds to be true. I

think that generally if people's first

priority is what they want, then they

often don't tend to get what they want.

But people who have the priority, their

first priority is what I can give tend

to get what they want.

>> That's right. It's so um it's a bit of a

sort of like a mindset shift. If you

prioritize other people's needs, if

you're thinking about what your boss

finds valuable, what the organization

finds valuable, and you rise to meet

those needs, you make yourself valuable,

which is going to come back to you. Um

hopefully that's what that's the hope.

And I think often that is the case.

Almost always that is the case in the

talk framework and we'll get there. The

K is for kindness. And it's not kindness

in the sense of like altruism because

I'm going to help my boss and do

everything he wants because I care so

deeply. That can be part of it. But also

it's this sort of loop of like well if

you give him everything every if you

give the organization what it needs

that's going to come back to you. You

will actually become valuable and get

what you want as well. That's how

relationships work. Usually when I

interview people, I lead the way. Today,

I'm going to follow, okay? [laughter]

Because you know the outcome that me and

the audience want to get to. So, I have

all this stuff here.

>> I love it. Props.

>> I have all these props.

>> Fabulous.

>> I have these blocks that for anyone that

can't see the conversation, say T A L K

on them. Talk.

>> Fabulous.

>> And you tell me the best place to start.

You know the outcome. You know where I

want to get to. I want to be the best

conversationalist, the best talker, the

most persuasive, influential, likable

talker in the world. Um, so I shall

follow your lead.

>> Oh my gosh,

>> it's a lot of power.

>> I love it. I love it so much. Um, let's

start with this. Um, I want you to think

of a conversation that you had recently.

It has to be more than 5 minutes long.

>> More than five? Yes, I can think of one

immediately. It was a conversation I had

with my girlfriend where I just wanted

her to know that I accept the fact that

I [ __ ] up. Like I I I accept the fact

that I should have been more present in

a particular moment and I wasn't. And I

just wanted to like

>> own it.

>> Own it

>> and and convey that to her

>> and convey that I'm sorry and I get it.

>> Yeah.

>> And this is not one where I'm going to

try and justify my whatever. No,

actually

objectively I should have been more

attentive and present. Y

>> I just wanted her to know that.

>> Yep. So you sort of have an admission of

blameworthiness.

Uh why why did you want to do that?

>> Because I felt that she was right and I

regretted my my behavior.

>> Yeah.

>> So sometimes I don't feel like she's

right. Sometimes I'm here to, you know,

respond. In this particular scenario, I

thought, you know, actually on balance,

I should have been more present. This

was an important time for her and in

hindsight,

that's not how I wish I had behaved.

>> Okay. How did you want her to feel

during and at the end of this

conversation?

>> Understood.

>> And

you really unders that was really it.

It's like I wanted her to feel

understood and

>> I guess like connected to me. But it's

more it's really more I just wanted her

to not worry that I didn't understand so

she didn't have to say it again. Like I

just wanted her to know that I I get it.

>> Mhm.

>> Mhm. Mh.

>> And that in future I wish I behave

differently.

>> How did you want to feel during and

after this conversation?

>> I guess I wanted to offload the guilt.

>> Uhhuh. [laughter]

Aha. Good. Good.

>> Because I felt bad. I felt like no

actually.

>> And it was weighing on your conscience.

You were like, I got to I I got to say

that. I got to own this because it's

making me feel like a [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Fabulous. Okay.

When we look back on our conversations

and try and describe what our goals

were, very quickly you start to realize

that our goals are very complicated that

we want a lot of things. I'm also

guessing there may have been a time

component. Can you talk a little bit

about that? Like how much time did you

have to achieve these goals?

>> I mean, I never seem to have enough

time. So, it was like it was [laughter]

Yeah. So, I I I had about probably about

20 minutes.

>> Great. Hey, that's pretty good.

>> I wish I had 20 minutes with my husband.

Okay. Um, so I have a framework that

helps us think about conversational

goals and I call it the conversational

compass. Okay. And like a compass that

you might use to find your way out of

the desert or the forest. The compass

helps you decide which way not to walk

but to talk. Okay. So the xaxis

>> I'll put this on the screen for anyone

that's uh can see the video.

>> Great. Um, the X-axis, which runs

horizontally, is about your

relationship.

>> Also, I'll link it below.

>> So, this relational axis, high

relational goals are things that you

care about that are serving the other

person or your relationship. This

conversation sounded very high

relational. You're truly like, I just

really want her to know that I feel like

a [ __ ] and that I'm owning it and

like I care and I maybe won't do it

again. Something like that. Low

relational goals are things we care

about that serve us. So in this case you

said something like I want to offload

get rid of my guilt. I wasn't I was

feeling bad. [snorts] The why access is

about information exchange. High

informationational goals are hinge on

exchanging accurate information. It's

sort of the reason human beings learn

develop the ability to communicate at

all right way back when is to take

what's in my brain communicate it to you

accurately. But we care about tons of

stuff that is lowformational. So it's

not about exchanging information and

sometimes it's about concealing it. In

this case, you had a highformational

goal. You wanted to sort of persuade her

or prove to her that you're a good guy

and that she should stay with you

essentially, trust you. But you also had

lowformational goals like you didn't

want it to be emotionally unpleasant to

have this conversation. You also had

lowformational goals like a time

constraint. You needed to protect your

time and her time. uh and and so we're

always limited by time and cognitive

resources.

So the point of this is to help us plot

all of those goals in a logical way. Uh

each quadrant is good. We live in all

four quadrants. We're not trying to get

to one or another. It's just to help us

describe all of the many things that we

actually care about almost to validate

them and say, "Listen, it's legit that

you wanted to relieve your guilt. super

admirable that you wanted to signal to

her that like you're owning this

mistake. It's legit that you have time

constraints. It's legit that you don't

want your conversations to be

unpleasant. So each of the quadrants get

gets a positive name. Highformational,

high relational is about connection.

Okay. Often you'll hear communications

uh experts just talk about connection

which is um too narrow. It's not the

only thing that we care about down here.

Low informational, high relational is

about savoring.

>> What does informational mean

>> in this context?

>> Like how much uh accurate information

you are trying to you need to exchange

with each other. If we just sat here

kind of quietly and I hummed a song

because we that and I said something

like I love your shirt. We're not

exchanging a lot of information but we

might be having a very lovely

interaction with each other. So not

every conversation is about high

information exchange though many people

think that it is. You know these people

they're very transactional. They feel

like a conversation is where you just

say things you know at other people and

that they're going to say things they

know back at you. That's a big mistake.

>> So having fun I can see is in the bottom

right corner.

>> Having fun. Yes.

>> Because it's not about huge information

exchange but it is about connections.

Okay.

>> Oh and it's really important. Many of my

students at Harvard almost forget about

this quadrant. They're like, "If we're

not persuading and making decisions,

we're not living right. Like, this is

really important, especially over time.

If we're not enjoying being with each

other, I'm not going to look forward to

talking to you again." That's true at

work and outside of work. Lower left is

essentially discernment. We call it

protection. It's protecting your time,

protecting your reputation, protecting

information. So, concealing, keeping

secrets, moving quickly. We can't sit

here for hours and hours and hours. Um,

and then protecting your reputation.

Like you care about making a positive

impression on other people. I want you

to see me as smart and warm and calm and

trustworthy. These are self-serving, low

relational or low informational goals.

And then we get up to upper left, which

is low relational, they're self-s

serving, high informational. This is a

lot of work rellated goal, persuasion,

making decisions, brainstorming, etc. So

if I want to be liked and have great

relationships, I need to be on the right

side of this. Is that accurate?

>> So what happens if someone who trusts

you and loves you tells you something in

confidence and then you go tell

everybody else?

>> You lose trust.

>> Yeah. So it's not that you can only live

on this side of the compass because

discernment matters

>> for relationships. Okay. Right. So, and

here you are going to be in a

relationship where hopefully you're

going to be like brainstorming things

together, making decisions together.

Even with a friend, you're like, "Oh,

where should we go to dinner tonight?"

You need to make that coordinate that

choice well together. So, I think one

aspiration is to try and be over on the

right side as much as you can. And in

fact, having the mindset of pushing

yourself to try and think about your

goals that are more pro-social more

often is a virtuous goal. But like

listen, we all have actual needs. So

like you can't only live on the right

side of the compass. It's about moving

around in a way that is savvy and and

actually serves what you care about.

>> Yeah.

>> Gotcha.

>> Do you have a sense of where your goals

from that conversation that you

described would be?

>> Apologize.

>> Which is high relational

and not very high on informational cuz I

didn't have a bunch I didn't have a lot

to say. It was just very simply about

letting her know that I was sorry. And

it wasn't I didn't have a big

explanation or a bunch of excuses or

justifications. It was just listen, I

[ __ ] up. Yeah, I get it.

>> Can we talk about apologies for a sec?

>> Sure.

>> I love that you chose this as your

example because and the way you're

describing it. I love how you're saying

um I didn't go into a huge explanation

of why I did it or anything. More people

should apologize that way. A lot of

people their instinct when they're

apologizing is to revisit the problem

and sort of make excuses or explain why

they m did the thing wrong. It's not

effective. Um what is more effective is

what you're describing. Taking ownership

and saying, "Look, I I just messed up

and I'm so sorry and I feel awful about

it." And the most effective component of

an apology is actually making a promise

to change. If you say to your

girlfriend, "I realize I messed up here.

I'm not going to do it again. Here's how

I'm going to be different in the future.

Like a concrete plan. It's so compelling

to hear that you've thought about that

and that and then it's measurable

because she can see in the future. Do do

you actually live up to that promise? Do

you follow through on this promise to

never do make the mistake again?

>> Is there a point where you can apologize

too much?

>> We studied this. I ran some studies on

this. Um, we started by looking at um,

frequency of apologies made during

normal conversations. It's quite rare

for someone to over apologize, but it

does seem like within one conversation,

if you apologize more than twice, it

starts to be more of a reminder of the

bad thing that happened. Like you just

keep revisiting it and it brings you

back to the negativity rather than

moving forward.

We also studied apologies in a really

large data set of parole hearings like

among people who had committed really

serious crimes and we looked at the

types of apologies that they made in

their par during their parole hearings.

And there it seems like you actually

can't overapologize like more is better.

And again, the most effective component

is making a promise to change in the

future. Um I'm going to go I'm when I

get out I'm going to be an AA. I'm going

to live live with my grandmother. here's

the job I'm going to do, whatever the

plan is. Um, you're actually more likely

to get out of jail.

>> And going into those difficult

conversations, is there anything one

needs to do to prepare?

>> Because we our lives are full of

difficult conversations and actually

it's the avoidance of them that ends up

messing up our lives the most. So when

you think about difficult conversations

that we all have to have or with

difficult people is do I have to prepare

for that?

>> So this is very natural. Almost every

person that you hear talk about

communication tends to focus on

difficult conversations. I'm going to

suggest to you that that is a very

narrow view of the conversational world

actually. And in fact, thinking about

difficult conversations is a little bit

of a misnomer. It's not like there are

some conversations that are difficult

and some that are easy.

>> It's that in every conversation there

can be moments of difference where we

use different language to mean the same

thing. where we have an in congruence in

our emotions, where we have a difference

in motives. I want to give you advice,

but you don't want to take it. Or

something dips down to a difference in

our identities. I'm American and you're

a Brit. So, anytime you encounter these

little fleeting moments of difference in

all of these different ways, and maybe

there was an image here. Let me see. No,

it's not here. Um, it looks like layers.

We talk about it like layers of the

earth. And above the surface are the

words and sounds that you hear while

people are talking. Right at the surface

are people's emotions. So I feel excited

but you feel tired and bored. That's

going to be uh tough. Right below that

are people's motives. What I want to

that gets back to the compass. What I

want to achieve is different than what

you want to achieve. We're all walking

around with a compass in our mind and

they're different from each other. Right

below that are our beliefs. Right? I

believe that immigration is a problem

and you believe that AI is a way bigger

problem than human immigration.

>> Um how do we talk about that in a way

and then all of it get dips down to the

the sort of hot magma in this layers of

the earth model of our identities. So

even an easy conversation, we're on a

date or we're two spouses are driving in

a car or friends are hanging out

watching a movie, like you can stumble

upon these little moments of difficulty

any time for any reason and you need to

have the skill set to be able to make

sure the temperature doesn't get too

hot.

>> What is that skill set?

>> There's a fabulous research on this. I

have found it incredibly helpful in my

life um research by Julia Mincson, Mike

Yman's, Hannah Collins called

receptiveness. So it's receptiveness to

opposing viewpoints and it's both the

mindset when you when someone comes to

you with something that seems crazy,

you don't judge it negatively. You have

to fight the human instinct to think of

it as like that's crazy, that's wrong,

and now I'm going to win and now I'm

going to be right and prove you wrong.

Because all of those instincts ruin our

conversations and our relationships.

>> Why? It makes us defensive on the

receiving end. It makes us sort of

accusatory and hostile on the attack

end. Once we get into an accusation and

defense mode, the conversation is broken

down. It's no longer

about connection favoring, protecting,

and advancing. We're now in this new

world that is not achieving any of our

goals.

>> She says someone comes to me and comes

to you and says something crazy. They

say, you know, the sky is purple. Yeah,

>> it's actually it's not blue, it's

purple.

>> Here's a magical phrase that you can say

in that moment. It makes sense that you

feel that the sky is purple. It makes

sense that you feel excited to tell me

that the sky is purple. It makes sense

that you feel X about Y. Makes sense

that you feel skeptical about podcasts.

It makes you It makes sense that you

feel annoyed that I speak quickly. It

makes sense that you are worried about

AI. Whatever people are feeling,

whatever they express to you, we can

validate that feeling because whatever

is going on in their mind is their

reality. And we have to say that out

loud before we go on to do anything

else, even if we're about to disagree

with them vehemently.

But we have to say the validation piece

first just like therapists do all the

time in order for them to feel heard and

like, "Oh yeah, I'm safe here so that I

can join you on your side of the table

and now we're going to untangle this

weird problem together." You say the sky

is purple. Tell me more like what how

did you come to feel like the sky is

purple? Um are do you are you color

blind? Are you do you see everything in

purple? Like now I can ask you questions

about how you came to that perspective

and we can learn I can learn about it.

>> I guess the risk is you don't want to

>> validate something wrong.

>> Yeah.

>> Why not?

>> You don't want to appear to be saying

cuz if I say it makes sense that you

think the sky is purple but it's

actually blue.

>> The word thinks is important. It's it

makes sense that you feel X about Y.

>> Not it makes sense that you think X

about Y. Thinking is like a cognition.

>> Is the risk of it sounding patronizing?

Maybe, but in in in practice it feels

really really good. When I run this, so

I run an exercise in my class where we

go around. Let's say there there's a

group of five students and you have to

share something. We start easy like

share one song you love and then the

next person has to validate that before

they share their favorite next song. And

you go around and around very quickly.

And so it feels very contrived to say,

okay, you have to say, I love that you

love that Taylor Swift song. That's so

interesting. I actually don't like

Taylor Swift. It feels very contrived,

but when you talk to the students after

it, they say, "Yes, I knew what we were

doing." It did feel over the top to say

that about people's song preferences.

And still, it felt amazing to have the

person next to me say, "I love that you

love that Taylor Swift song."

Validation. We are all so hungry for

validation that even ridiculous

validation feels amazing. So then when

you get to round two and everybody's

sharing something that they're really

struggling with and the person next to

them says, "Wow, I'm so sorry. That

sounds really, really hard." It makes

sense that you feel upset about your

mom. Now you've got that habit and

you're making them feel quite good about

something that actually does deserve

that validation. So it's all about like

developing these habits no matter where

the difference or disagreement is coming

from. What's the opposite of that?

>> The opposite is what how people

naturally respond, tend to naturally

respond, which is by trying to win and

prove them wrong and prove that they're

right. So you say the sky is purple and

I say that's crazy. Skye's blue.

And then where does our conversation go?

It feels terrible for you. It's so I

learned this um [clears throat]

because I employed this person once and

this person when we'd talk about ideas

the first word out of their mouth was

always I disagree and then they'd make

their point.

>> That's right.

>> And I don't know what it was about it,

but I noticed that it would like get my

backup

>> of course.

>> And so I'd say I don't know. I'd say I

think we should do it like this. I

disagree. Yeah.

>> And then they'd make their point. And I

remember thinking, gosh, that's such a

>> And it's so ironic because their goal is

to persuade you. At the end of it, they

want you to agree with their position.

That's not at all how persuasion works.

The only way that we change our beliefs

is is usually across many conversations.

And we're around someone we like talking

to and respect and have admiration for.

And then over time, we sort of bend to

the gentle pressure of their differing

viewpoint.

If I say, "I disagree. Now, let's fight

about it."

>> You're you get your backup and you're

not having you're not enjoying talking

to me. Even if you're right and right,

like it's not about being right or wrong

in that moment.

>> The goal here is to keep the

conversation in an emotional place where

it can continue. So, you can continue to

engage. And that's what these

researchers find in this receptiveness

research is there. If you qualify your

statement saying like, "I wonder if the

sky could be a different color rather

than the sky is blue with certainty."

There are all of these sort of hedging

language, you can divide yourself into

multiple parts. So if you said to me,

"The sky is purple," I would say, "Oh my

gosh, as your friend and as a painter,

that is so intriguing to me." As a

biologist or as a as a meteorologist,

maybe we should investigate that.

>> Um, literally dividing yourself into two

disagreeing parts. It's usually how we

actually feel. So if your mother says

something crazy to you that seems crazy

to you, you could say as your daughter,

I'm so intrigued that you've come to

hold that perspective. I'd love to hear

more. You know, as a representative of

Gen Z, I know my friends would want you

want me to say this. It means that you

can hold two perspectives at once and it

is very helpful to the other person to

keep the conversation going. But all of

the elements of this receptiveness

recipe have have this flavor. It's a

little surprising. I think often people

think of these types of things as

weakness because it's like our our

instinct is to try to win and be right.

And instead, what I'm saying is no,

hedge your claims. Show that you're

uncertain about stuff. Validate their

feelings. Divide yourself into

disagreeing parts because you're not

certain about anything in order to keep

the conversation going so that you have

any shred of hope of persuading them

over the longer term. I remember Tali

Sharrett telling me about a study

either. She told me, she's a

neuroscientist in London and she told me

they put two people in a brain imaging

scanner and got them to like look at

photos and come to agreement on the

price of something. Yes.

>> And then eventually in these studies,

I'm super paraphrasing here. She's

probably like cringing.

>> I think I know what study you're talking

about.

>> Oh, do could you explain it?

>> Yeah. So, so they studied what what

lights up in your brain when you're in a

situation of disagreement versus

agreement. And it is actually more

taxing to your mind when someone is

disagreeing with you. It's like these

neurological um alarm bells go off and

all of a sudden

>> like you describe what was your afraid?

My back goes up. What was

>> Yeah, my back goes up. I get my back up.

Yeah,

>> that's it. It's actually in your brain.

Your brain goes up and it's hard. It's

it's very hard to continue to engage

once that process is underway.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Some people call it amydal

hijacking, which is not quite right. Um,

but your brain does look different when

you're in a situation of disagreement.

So, whatever we can do conversationally

to sort of tamp that down so that your

back doesn't go up [clears throat]

>> is going to be quite helpful.

>> She showed pictures of the brain in

these scans when someone disagrees with

you. And I think, and I might be getting

this inverted, that it was almost like

the brain had shut down to

receptiveness. Yes. In that moment it

was like so I always when I wrote this

chapter in my book called do not

disagree. It's it's an intentionally

provocative chapter because people think

what do you mean never disagree with

anybody but I mean like don't make the

first thing you say I disagree.

>> That's right. It can come later. It can

come later but first has to come like oh

it's so intriguing that you said that.

I'm so fascinated and it makes sense

that you might feel that way. I wonder

if and then you can go on instead of I

disagree. I met a girl called an who

always said yes and instead of but

>> good

>> and it shocked me because it was so

different. I having a conversation with

her, you say something to her and you go

I think this and she goes yes and and

then she would make her point and it

could be a complete disagreement but I

noticed she was doing it and I loved it.

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. And you we often think of

the yes and as part of sort of improv

comedy humor etc. They were the

comedians were really on to something

much more profound about conversation

broadly. If you can come from a sort of

mindset or like spiritual place of yes

and essentially you're saying uh I'm

going to give you the benefit of the

doubt here even though it what you're

saying seems a little crazy.

>> Mhm.

>> That's what is required to have great

relationships. It's like we're all going

to have these moments where someone

feels something or says something that

seems crazy. And if you react to it in

an invalidating way,

that's how we kill our relationships.

>> Do we need to kill the word but? Because

what ends up happening is someone will

say the thing you just said about

validating relationships. Yes, I

completely understand. Um I think you

made a great point, Allison, but. And

the minute I say but, it's kind of like

I've just taken an eraser to everything

you just said.

>> I would love to get rid of the word but.

Not but with two T's but but with one T.

Yes. [laughter]

>> Yeah. You never need it. You can make

the same point and say and

>> but [laughter] like it just completely

it just it immediately says

>> it rever it also reveals that you're

sitting there

in a state of I I can't wait. I'm like

on the tip of my tongue is something I

can't wait to say that's opposite of

what you're saying. And it's the the

spirit of it is is antagonistic.

>> One of the things we notice when we have

conversations on this show about uh

about conversation

>> is people really care about likability.

>> Yes.

>> Like they they really want to know

what's making them disliked and they

really want to know how to be liked.

>> Good. So being liked is a huge drive. Um

but it's just one of many things that we

we care about in terms of gaining

status. So status is uh respect,

admiration, liking in the eyes of other

people. Liking is usually comes from

sort of warmth and charm. Uh admiration

often comes from like perceptions of

competence. So we want warmth and

competence at once ideally. Okay. Let's

go back in time. Should we talk about

the talk framework because they're going

to be little clues about how to be

better liked across the whole framework.

>> Okay. [laughter]

>> Okay. Let's start with T. I'm going to

push these to the side. T is first I

just want to say as a whole framework

TAK

is the most comprehensive teachable

practical scientifically rigorous

framework in the world for

communication.

>> Did you invent it?

>> I did.

>> So you would say that

>> but I didn't when I first wrote the book

I didn't say it strongly enough. And in

the last almost year I've come to

realize why. One part is because most

people focus only on difficult

conversations and here we are focusing

on all conversations even the ones that

seem like they should be easy and fun.

It's all conversations everywhere

personal and professional. The other

piece is that I didn't even really

intend this as a scientist but the way

we do research is essentially uh natural

language processing machine learning

fits into this new world of AI. So the

framework can be used by humans or

machines to coach people to be better

conversationalists and used as a rubric

after the fact of saying, "Okay, how did

this go? Did you do well? Let's look at

T A L K and evaluate."

>> Okay, it's the best in the world ever. I

>> thank you, Stephen. Okay, thank you.

>> Um, thank you for recognizing.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Okay. T is for topics.

>> Topics.

>> Topics. Topics are the building blocks

of conversation. It is what we choose to

talk about.

>> Okay,

>> very simple. We all have an intuitive

understanding that we sort of work

through different chunks. First, we're

going to talk about your conversation

with your girlfriend. Then, we're going

to talk about the talk framework. Then,

we're talk about the compass, whatever.

We're working through topics. What I

think most people don't realize is that

we're choosing topics every time we

talk. It's not just at the beginning of

a conversation like an opener like,

"Hey, what do you think of this, you

know, the diplomat?" No, it's every time

you're talking, we're making moves to

gently stay on topic or switch to

something else. What's so beautiful

about that is it means we all have

power. We all have control to nudge the

conversation one way or another.

And we can all do a better job with it.

>> So, what's the game here? To pick better

topics, to know what topic we're aiming

at.

>> There's a lot of goals. It's both about

choosing better topics. It's also about

how can we make any topic better. Okay,

one huge piece of advice that when you

start to realize how much your mind is

doing during a live conversation is to

offload some of that cognitive work to

beforehand.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. [clears throat] So, prepping

topics ahead of time. This does not mean

writing out an agenda before you call

your parents or before you call your

girlfriend. What it does mean is

spending even 30 seconds, maybe even 10

seconds before you're in the chaos of a

conversation to think about what you

could talk about or what might be

important for you to remember to talk

about.

>> Did you do that today?

>> Always.

>> Sometimes you don't have to, right? Like

you did it today. You did extensive

prep. Um, you even have things printed

on cards here.

>> And in a [clears throat] way, I have

been prepping for this conversation for

20 years. I've been studying these

things. I designed the framework myself.

I've gone on 80 other, you know,

podcasts. I that's all prep for this

moment.

>> What about in your personal life?

>> Yeah.

>> Can you give me an example of where you

prepared topics?

>> Every conversation that I know is

coming. I give an example.

>> So with Casi uh before I got here,

>> which is a member of our team.

>> Yes. Thank you. I thought about I wanted

to ask her what it's like to be moving

from London to LA. I wanted to ask her

what it's like to work with you. She

said all good. All good things.

[laughter]

>> All good things. Next question. What

does A mean? [laughter]

>> So funny. Um I often will um so you can

It's not rocket science. It's literally

just a little bit of forethought. What

kinds of questions or topics could I ask

you that will make our conversation feel

a little bit better than just like

winging it in the moment and talking

about like some random thing I see in

the room?

>> Mh. [clears throat]

I try to do this before every

conversation because now I know how

powerful it is and how kind it is. If

you are calling somebody and you're

like, "Okay, oh yeah, their kid was

going to take guitar lessons. I should

remember to ask about that." Or, "Oh, my

friend had this big presentation at

work. I should remember to ask how that

went." That means you're going to

remember to ask them and that's super

kind and it they're excited to talk

about it, too. It makes everything

better. So, topic prep is a huge deal.

In our research, what we find when you

randomly assign people to prep topics or

not, the conversations where people have

thought ahead even for 30 seconds, they

feel less anxious. They're much

smoother. There are fewer disfluencies,

so ums, stutters between topics. They

cover more topics, which is usually a

good thing. More likely to land on good

topics. You're less likely to blurt, so

you're less likely to share things that

you don't want to share with people.

It's just an incredibly powerful

strategy and it doesn't need to be

complicated. I've gotten in the habit of

putting like two or three bullet points

for people in my Google calendar notes

when you know you have a meeting coming

up and and you don't even have to do it

right before like oh a week ahead of

time if it pops in my head that I want

to ask Stephen about do you want to have

children I might write that as a little

bullet point in my calendar note for the

time that I'm going to be here with you

and then I'll be more likely to remember

it. Do you feel skeptical about this?

>> No. I was just thinking it probably

makes you more, going back to the point

about likability, it probably makes you

a more likable person.

>> Much more likable. Yeah. In fact, if you

can achieve more of your goals, whether

they're high informational,

lowformational, high relational, low

relational, um, all of that makes you

more likable. You you seem more

competent. You seem more warm,

especially when you lean towards those

pro-social, high relational uh, goals.

Cuz everyone talks about how if you're

interested in someone else, like you

were interested in Cozy.

>> Yes,

>> that must have felt good for her, which

must make her like you more.

>> We should go ask her.

>> That's a good point.

>> I ask um I have my students sometimes do

a reflection task where I say, "If you

had to walk into a room and your your

job was to make people like you a one

out of 10, a five out of 10, or a 10 out

of 10, what are the behaviors that you

would do to try and pursue those three

worlds?" Okay. So, if I wanted people to

like me, one out of 10. Yeah. What What

would you do? You tell me. You tell me.

You're the expert. [laughter]

>> I want to hear your I want to hear your

guesses.

>> My guesses I would walk in quiet on my

phone and I would ignore them and maybe

[clears throat] I'd look up and make

some kind of snide comment. I definitely

wouldn't notice that they were there.

>> Yeah.

>> And I

wouldn't make eye contact with them. I

>> would maybe be rid like take a phone

call.

>> I was gonna say you one's really low. So

you probably insults probably.

>> Oh yeah, I'd offend them.

>> Yeah, offend [clears throat] them.

>> Maybe take a phone call and then while

you're on the phone call, talk about how

great you are. Or something, right? Like

some sort of arrogance, etc.

>> Um maybe if they try and talk to you,

interrupt them.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and be like, "Not now."

>> Or look at my phone midway through what

they're saying. Like Yeah.

>> Yeah. Okay. So there's lots of things

you can imagine there.

>> Okay.

>> Already we've touched on topics though,

right? When you think about, okay, I'm

talking on the phone in front of them

and what am I going to be talking about

that reduces my likability even for

someone who's like just observing you

talking?

>> I'd get the name.

>> That's great. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

>> That's a good way to say you don't

matter to me.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Five out of 10 is an

interesting one. You want to do it's

probably more blaszeise like you engage

with them but not very well.

Talk about small talk topics like you

were saying things that you could talk

about with anyone that are not

personalized at all seem a bit

disinterested

um but not offensive just bland.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. Then we get to 10 out of 10 world.

You

>> 10 out of 10 liability.

>> Yeah. What are what are you doing if

you're trying to get 10 out of 10?

>> I am completely focused on them.

>> Good. Um, I'm attentive. I'm

complimentary. I'm gonna flatter them.

>> Yeah.

>> Um,

>> do you think it will seem obquous?

>> And I don't know if I get it right.

>> Okay.

>> Um, because I'm going to mean it.

>> Yeah. Cuz it's going to be sincere.

>> It's going to be really sincere.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm going to crack a great joke.

>> Yes.

>> Knock knock.

>> Yeah. Who's there?

>> I don't know. I [laughter]

like I don't know. My friend, didn't

you?

>> Exactly.

>> So, yeah, I'm going to flatter them.

Crack jokes. Be very attentive. Get

their name right. Ask them about their

grandchild.

>> Good. Okay, let's pause. I want to in

that description already you're moving

quite quickly through topics as you're

interacting with them. You know that you

can't be circling the drain talking

about the weather for long periods of

time. So just briefly let me say we

don't need to avoid small talk. In fact,

it's a very important social ritual for

people who are strangers to each other,

people who haven't seen each other in a

long time. It's where we land and say,

"Oh, we're doing conversation now." The

mistake that people make is

they stay there too long. Way too long.

Any more than like one beat of, "Oh my

goodness, the weather's really warm.

It's like summer in California." Then

you need to make it more personal and

move up this topic pyramid towards

medium talk, deep talk quickly. Right?

So small talk is at the bottom. These

are topics anybody can talk about.

Tailored talk is more exciting, more

personalized, more relevant to your

interests. Deep talk is the peak of this

pyramid. Only we can talk about this

thing in this special way. Not every

conversation is bound to get to the deep

talk, but when it does, we should feel

very appreciative. It's one of the most

magical things about being humans. Um,

so we don't need to get to deep talk

with like the barista at Starbucks or

with your neighbor when they're taking

out their trash, but it does happen

sometimes and it's quite lovely. I think

I used to put girls off when I was 11

because I used to ask them like the

meaning of life too quickly on my mother

stole a Nokia phone.

>> Yeah.

>> And so they would stop texting back.

>> Yeah.

>> So I I think I learned early that like

some people just don't like

>> Well, the joke's on them now. Now you

get to do it for your for your life's

work. No, but I think we you were on to

something there. It's not that you asked

them about the meaning of life at all.

You asked it too quickly.

>> So getting it's about the pacing as we

move up here. Most people stay too long

at the bottom, but we also cannot jump

to the top often. You kind of have to do

the ritual of climbing to feel like you

get there in a natural way.

>> And is that where relationships are

built? Deep ones

>> for sure.

>> At the top

>> moments at the top probably, right? This

is where vulnerability takes you. Um,

often asking lots of questions,

especially follow-up questions, gets you

up the pyramid more quickly. So shall we

shall we shift to the A of the talk

framework because A is for

asking. Uh topics and asking are

intimately tied to each other. The most

common way that people switch topics is

by asking a question. So you can use

questions like what are you excited

about recently? Or what has been your

favorite guest to talk to? Or what have

you and your girlfriend done together

recently? You can you do that to switch

topics. Once you're on a topic, we use

follow-up questions to kind of dive

deeply and move up the topic pyramid.

Um,

>> so are you saying I should ask more

questions?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Well, ask more than they're asking

me.

>> Maybe not you because you spend a lot of

time asking questions, but most people

the topline advice to make their

conversations better is to ask many more

questions.

asking. It sounds so simple and it's

almost like everybody already knows

that, but doing it in practice is quite

hard and it's a skill. And people who do

it well are more successful on romantic

dates. They're more successful in work

meetings. They're more successful as

collaborators. They're more successful

as entrepreneurs in getting funding. All

of it hinges on on question asking. So

the topline advice, just ask more

questions. At the very least, don't be a

zero question asker.

>> What happens to the fate of zero

question askers?

>> Oh, they're not they're not getting a

second date. They're not going to get

that funding. They're not they're not

learning enough about their partner to

enable them to succeed. If you go on a

first date and you're asking zero

questions, which like imagine that we've

all sort of been on that date probably,

you want to leave within 10 minutes.

When you're on a first date, you have so

much to learn about each other. M

>> you [clears throat]

have everything to learn about each

other. So if someone's not asking, it's

a real real real problem. Especially I

think this is a very especially good

hack for men um on heterosexual dates.

Often what they're getting wrong is that

they're not asking enough questions.

>> How'd you know this?

>> From data. [laughter]

>> From data.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we have a thousand speed

dates and we uh the outcome is does your

the other person want to go on a second

date with you and we have transcripts.

It was an amazing study run by this

incredible research group at Stanford

about 10 years ago and you can just

measure it. Measure how many questions

they ask on each date. People who ask

more questions are enormously more

likely to get asked to on a second date.

So much. So, imagine you go on 20 first

dates and I say, "Okay, Stephen, you

just have to ask one extra question on

those 20 dates. If you do, you'll

convert another date into a second date

from just one question per date,

>> according to the data."

>> Yes. It's true for both men and women,

but it's particularly helpful for men

because they ask fewer questions on

average than women do.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Significantly less.

>> Yes. And the other funny gender effect

in the data is that men are just more

likely to agree to go on second dates.

They're less discerning in general.

But if they want if if men want to get

asked on the second date, just ask more

questions.

>> What is it me asking more questions

doing to the other person?

>> It makes them feel heard and like you

want to know their answer, that you're

interested in them. And so it signals

your interest, but also you learn what's

in their mind and what their experience

is, which gives arms you with more

information that to then ask more better

questions. So it's not just about asking

more, although that's a good start. It's

about asking f great follow-up

questions. The the the benefits of

question asking are almost entirely

driven by the power of follow-up

questions.

>> So what? Give me an example of asking a

great follow-up question.

>> We're on a date. It's uh there's food.

It's going really well. I've just shared

with you that I went on an amazing walk

down the Sunset Strip this morning.

>> And then I would say, "Really? Oh my

god, I've always wanted to go. Tell me

tell me about it. How was it?"

>> Oh, incredible. Um, so I got to this

point. I had never been here there

before. There was I had to decide, was I

going to veer off and go see um the

Marilyn Monroe apartment, which by the

way is right next to the Frank Lidd

Wright house. Oh my god. or was I going

to go a few blocks away was the um

Mendez brothers house.

>> Who's that?

>> The two brothers who killed their

parents.

>> Oh, on Netflix.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, wow. Okay.

>> So, I would literally right in between

and I was at this crossroads. Do I

choose Cultured? Do I choose Morbid

Curiosity? Um,

>> and which one did you choose?

>> I went with Cultured. I was too afraid

by [laughter]

myself.

>> You're so cute.

>> So, okay. So, we Okay, we're off our

date now. That was so fun. you were

asking such lovely questions and it

really helped to like cheer me on like

you actually wanted to hear this story.

>> Um even though it might like someone

else might have been like not that

interested and then you feel embarrassed

like oh I just shared a bunch of

vulnerable stuff. I was walking alone in

LA. I had morbid curiosity about these

two brothers and this story. Um, it's

very easy to make someone feel

invalidated in that moment, but

follow-up questions make me feel like,

oh, he wants to know more. He's coming

with me on this journey.

>> So, did I do the right thing then?

>> Yeah, you were doing great.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> And what's the wrong thing to have done

for me to just just

>> Oh, imagine if I had been like, "Oh, I

went this on an amazing walk down the

Sunset Strip." And you said, "Oh, my

favorite restaurant on the strip is a

sushi place."

>> Oh, [ __ ]

>> Um, I I went to this amazing restaurant

and I went to this amazing store. Uh,

yeah. They carried our mess. I bought an

amazing pair of boots. Um,

>> people do that all the time.

>> Constantly. So, this is called boomer

asking.

>> Boomer asking.

>> Not because of boomers. We love What are

you saying? It's for people of all ages.