What are the five most important things

for anyone who's striving to be a

masterful communicator to get what they

want out of life?

>> The first is authenticity and presence

is the highest form of authenticity.

>> Okay, on that point, I'm going to play

this video on the screen that went viral

of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell.

>> Oh, I haven't seen this.

That's painful to watch.

>> Number two,

>> reduce the amount of distraction. Three,

stop overexplaining.

>> Number four, know how to deal with their

sadness. And I'll go through all of

these in detail, but number five is you

have to know how to handle the

narcissist and the gaslighter. What do I

do? Let me show you. First, you need to

come.

>> Yeah. For a lot of people, that kind of

blows their mind. Jefferson Fiser is

back and the board certified trial

lawyer is using his expertise in

conflict resolution and communication

>> to teach couples, friends, employees,

>> and everyone in between how to master

difficult conversations.

>> Here's the truth. You have to invest in

your communication. If I don't say what

needs [music] to be said at work, I'll

lose that promotion. Same thing in

relationships. Most relationships don't

fall apart because they fell out of

love. They fell out of communication

because of a 100 moments where repair

could have happened and it didn't. Cuz

you said, "Ah, this is so stupid. This

so small." Like there's a recent study

showing that the biggest predictor of

the child's well-being within the

parental relationship is not whether

they were married or divorced. It was

how they deal with conflict. But people

are definitely afraid of the conflict

that they're in cuz they don't know what

to say. And so I want to help them feel

controlled in this, feel confident in

this. And it's knowing things like being

right is overrated. If I respond first

with frustration, I'm going to lose

every time. Or if you want to know how

to handle the insults, the patronizing,

the dismissive, the first thing you have

to do is the mistake I've made multiple

times.

>> I see messages all the time in the

comment section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way, you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

you.

[music]

[singing]

Jefferson Fisher.

>> What do you do professionally?

>> What is your How do you sort of

characterize your profession?

>> Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade.

>> What does that mean?

>> That means I help clients with legal

needs. I'm board certified in personal

injury. So, when people get hurt, I have

trials. So, that means there are other

attorneys that don't ever go to a

courtroom. I go into a courtroom.

>> Then you stand before a judge

>> and a Yeah. You have a judge, you have a

jury, you have a court reporter, a

baiff, you have opposing attorneys.

There are people in the room

>> and you try and convince those people of

your point of view to get a particular

outcome.

>> I advocate my client's facts in order to

get the result that they want.

>> So, why did you think it was important

to write a book about conversation

talking, getting what you want from

the conversations we have with people we

care about? Because I have seen time and

time again that when I am training a

client is what I call I'm preparing them

for cross- examination for deposition

they really don't know how to engage in

conflict. And so I can't think of any

other profession that is more entrenched

in conflict maybe outside of a a boxer

or some you know UFC something that

deals with actual conflict and sits

there and listens to it all than in the

legal world in a trial attorney. And so,

yeah, it's my job to advocate based on

my clients facts to to get them the

result that they want. The reason why I

wrote that book and how that book

applies is I took a lot of the lessons

that I teach every one of my clients and

put them in that book because I'm

sitting there preparing them for

cross-examination and realizing, oh,

wait, they are deathly afraid of the

conflict that they're in. is most of the

time it's the most

emotional, stressful, overwhelmed they

are ever in their life. They've they're

in a place they've never been. They

don't know what it's like. They've only

seen it on TV. And so it's my job to

kind of take their hand and say, "This

is how we're going to this is how we're

going to do it."

>> And how does that apply to the average

person in their life?

>> People think that

the goal of any argument or any

conversation is to win. And same for a

trial. They say you want to win a trial.

I've seen it so many times where I've

gotten the result that they want and

I've realized they still have the

problem. They still wanted the apology.

It all would have been resolved. There'd

be no case if somebody had just said,

"I'm sorry." And so you find that for

the everyday person, it's my job now and

and passion to be able to help them get

into conflict and say, "I feel

controlled in this. I feel confident in

this now. I know exactly where I'm going

in this because I've been there before

and it is not a skill that comes

naturally. It is a skill that is

learned.

And what do you think is the the sort of

variance and outcome? How would my life

change if I became an absolute master in

this? You know, if I started from zero

in this regard and then I became a

master in dealing with conflict and

dealing with difficult people and

dealing with people that gaslight me and

dealing with narcissists and all these

kinds of things, why would my life be

different and and in what domains?

>> It's quite a lot.

>> Yeah. First would be you would be

equipped for outside of necessary

expertise anywhere you wanted to be in

life. People feel like communication is

zero cost. It costs you something. If

I'm not speaking up in that

relationship, it costs my own sense of

worth. If I don't say what needs to be

said at work, I might have lost that

promotion. I I everything the bill

always comes due. If you can think of

every time you didn't say the thing as

like a receipt at a restaurant, every

time it's it's a bill of what I am not

putting into my life because I chose to

either say something or not say

something at the right time. And when

you realize that if I can speak with

confidence, well, that's me gaining a

little bit more. If if I can say things

with control, that's me gaining just a

little bit more. A second benefit of it

is that you realize

being right is overrated.

You can, if you tell me the sky is

purple, knock yourself out, Stephen. It

doesn't have to touch anything with me

on on who I am or any of my opinions.

We're we're opinion-making machines. I

feel that's all on social media. It's to

be set up to give your opinion on things

that most of the time will rarely ever

touch you. And if you can have the peace

of mind of knowing

I don't need to agree with you to

understand you.

If you have an opinion, I don't have to

give one back. If you say something, I

can choose not to say anything at all.

And for a lot of people, that kind of

blows their mind of, "You mean I don't

have to respond?" No, you don't have to

say anything. If somebody's talking

really fast, you can talk really slow.

They forget that you have full autonomy

in it. And when you realize that it's

you who's taking the wheel, you take the

wheel of your life.

>> But what about justice, Jefferson?

>> Yeah.

>> Do you know justice? Like this person

has wronged me. They've said something

wrong. They've I don't know, they

tweeted at me something which is

incorrect. I need to correct the record.

Justice. I think we all have a sort of

an an innate sense of justice. We want

things to be fair and right.

>> Yes, justice is an inherent value that

is high priority for a lot of people for

good reason. You might say, well,

they've they've wronged me. This isn't

right. That's all well and good. The

question is going to be, how long do you

want to carry it? How long do you want

to carry that feeling? Because I can

either choose to let it go. I can choose

to say the thing. It's it's not at all

my position that you should be stepping

on eggshells and not say the thing and

be a wallflower. No, it's the opposite.

I'm saying you you say what you need to

say in a way that is controlled, in a

way that is signaling I don't I'm saying

this because it needs to be said, but

not because I have to say it. There's a

lot of people who feel like, well,

something needs to be said, but am I

maybe you're not the one to say it.

Maybe you you're the one that needs to

maybe needs doesn't need to be said

right now because if they're not willing

to listen, well then what good is it

ever do? What I like to say is, you

know, for you to learn how to stand up

for yourself, you first have to learn

who's worth getting out of your chair

for. I'm not going to be making big

moves for something that is not at all

worth my my time. So yeah, justice is

absolutely worth it. But when you go,

I'm the one that has to be carrying

this. A lot of the times people do

things to you and it's nothing to them,

but yet it's everything to you and now

you're just you're walking around for 20

years with a comment that you could have

said something way long ago and decided

to drop it, but you you chose to to

carry it and now you're the only one

that has the the weight of that. If I'm

dealing with someone who's in a position

of power, someone who's a I don't know a

senior to me at my company or even

someone who in my social group is a bit

more higher up in the sort of social

pecking order and they're continually

putting me down or being difficult or

even a partner that I'm romantically

involved in.

>> What are the hallmarks of someone who

has control over their communication?

And what are the hallmarks of someone

that doesn't like what is it that makes

because when you speak it's very feels

very composed and controlled. What are

you intentionally doing to achieve that

effect?

I'm wanting you to match my rhythm. I'm

wanting you to come to my frequency.

People get it wrong when they go big

time to an 11. Big emotional reaction.

If I have a big emotional outburst, am I

signaling that I'm somebody who's

trustworthy, reliable, and confident? Or

am I signaling that I am out of my

depth? I don't know what I want, and I

am not to be believed. Right? because

it's when you have an emotional

outburst, everybody thinks this is

you're just being emotional and they

don't all of a sudden you're not

credited for the truth of what you're

saying. So sometimes emotions can get in

the way of what needs to be said because

of how you're delivering it. So when I

say I'm going to talk to you in a way

that's going to sound more controlled,

it's I'm slowing down my words. I'm

lowering my volume. Why? Because I want

to pull you down here.

And if I can pull you down here, well

then we can talk about a lot harder

things rather than feeling like I have

to to rush. So if you want to talk to

somebody in your relationship or

somebody that's kind of higher up on the

pecking order, so to speak, when you can

show them that

change doesn't bother you, when you can

show them that you don't have to rush

through this situation, people feel that

you are giving them a sense of comfort.

In other words, in conversation,

everybody is looking for an anchor.

When you go to a meeting, we listen to

the person who's the anchor. They're

usually the person who says a lot less,

the person who's observing and listening

rather than always giving their opinion

about what you should be doing. Those

are the people you don't listen to. As

soon as you, if you've ever heard

somebody say, "You know what I think you

should do?" Does that ever make you want

to do what they said? No. It's because

they they've made it their idea. Now

they're telling you what to do. If I

were to say to you, you can't do that.

What's the first thing you think of?

Yes, I can.

>> You know, it's it's the same kind of

concept where it's me lowering to be the

anchor in the conversation.

>> And when you're in a case in front of a

judge, is is there anything else that

you're intentionally thinking about

with, I don't know, your body language

or the eye contact or any of these other

things that you've learned over time are

really important to get your message

heard?

>> I'm speaking like I've been there

before.

>> Explain that to me. walk into a room

like you've been there before, as if

everybody else is just visiting. So,

what I do before every trial is I will

go in there before the jury comes in,

the judge comes in, everybody comes in

and I say to myself, this is my living

room and everybody else is just

visiting. And so, I will touch the

chairs. I will put my hands on the

banisters. I will walk around. I will

feel that space and and feel it in a way

of saying I have been here before. And

when I can exude that kind of confidence

that every juror that watches,

all of a sudden it calms them down. They

go, who can I rely on here? Who's more

trustworthy? Who's more credible?

Because that's what it is when you're

when you're persuading, when you are

advocating your case, it's who

ultimately it comes down to who is more

credible. And so when I can

not get emotionally flustered, like I've

seen it so many times where a judge

rules against me

and I act as though that's exactly what

I wanted. You know, I am I'm acting as

though, thank you, judge. And the jur

the juryy's never going to know really

any different. But I've seen on other

attorneys where the judge rules against

them and they go [sighs]

or they roll their eyes or they act

frustrated. And what does the juror

think? Oh, they must not have wanted me

to hear this information or this must

have been bad for their case. So, if you

are always reacting to situations in

which you have to be emotional with in a

sense that you're not paying attention

to who's watching you.

>> Okay. On that point,

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, when you say rules against you, you

mean during the trial

>> there's something you request, the judge

might say no, and you say, "Thank you,

judge."

>> You act as if

>> you're not defeated. you act as though

that's exactly what you expected, right?

It's it's the whole idea of that's not

going to shake shake me. So, a lot of

the times you'll see in real court, not

TV, uh the judge will say, "Counsel, can

you approach?" And both attorneys come

up and they play some kind of noise

cancellation to where only the the

attorneys can hear the judge and the

judge is making a decision at that time

that we don't want to hear to let the

jury know. Why? Because it's information

that might sway the case in some way and

not be as objective.

And you have to pay attention to who's

how the attorneys are walking away after

that meeting's done. If somebody looks

defeated, it just signals, oh, this is

information that they must not want or

they're objecting. I've seen so many

cases where there's one attorney who

objects to everything.

It's my rule if I really want to have

one objection the whole trial because to

the jury, an objection is me keeping

evidence out. So, if you always object,

always object, always object, you're

just signaling there's information I

don't want you to hear. But if I have

the confidence of knowing there's really

one objection I know that's going to be

material to my case,

that way they know I've been there

before. This is not something that's

going to be making or breaking my case.

It's it's all of credibility. If they

don't trust me, they're not going to

trust my client or my client's case.

>> I think also it illuminates to me how

much of a communication is nonverbal.

Because in that example, you're just

talking about how they're watching your

body language and how you've received

something,

>> right?

>> And the, you know, if you were

defensive, you know, with all those

objections or if you were defeated in

the judge's ruling,

>> that would work against you even though

it's really nothing was said, like

nothing significant was said.

>> Yeah. It's it's a balance of knowing

am I going to

choose to react because of personal ego

of I didn't get in my way or am I having

the better mindset of I'm advocating on

behalf of my client like I I've been

let's say you're a witness and you're

opposed to me and I'm asking you a

question and I think you said something

that's contrary contrary to the evidence

that I have right here rather than me

getting messed up saying are you are you

sure about that, Mr. Barl. Let me go.

You know, I have this piece of paper

here and I get really worked up versus

me putting you said something and I put

my hand on the the paper. I said, "You

sure?" Like all of a sudden, it's a

moment of it kind of peaks their

interest of like, "What's happening? Oh,

this attorney knows. This attorney is

somebody who's confident and has this

what I call in the pocket presence. I'm

not trying to be too forward. I'm not

trying to be too pack. I'm just in the

pocket like a a jazz band." Like

everybody is on everybody's on beat and

so I'm not I'm not rushing. I'm not

slowing down. I'm just right in the

pocket.

>> In the pocket. Is that what people call

aura?

>> Swagger maybe as some people call it.

Yeah. Aura. You you could have it for

anything in any context. I like to say

in the pocket because it just reminds me

of

the right timing is my timing. And that

is I'm I'm going to match

how I need to be of what's most

authentic, what's most genuine to me. If

you were to ask me to read something

really fast, it wouldn't sound that

great because that's not that's not my

personality. And so if I know that I am

acting and speaking in accordance with

the values that I hold and I'm saying

everybody here is just is just visiting.

This is I've been here before. Let me

y'all don't know where to go. Let me

show you. And I I have that kind of

mentality,

people will listen to you forever.

They'll they'll find that attractive,

saying, "How does this person know where

they're going? Well, I can I can follow

them." It's just it's natural leadership

to speak in a way that says, "I know

where I've I'm going. I've been here

before."

>> I think that's probably good advice for

people who um have important meetings or

are going on dates.

>> Yeah.

>> To maybe get there ahead of time and

familiarize yourself with the location.

>> Yes. just so you you know you don't have

the added anxiety of like stumbling

through the physical environment like

looking for the thing or trying to find

the toilet or

>> I don't know trying to figure out how to

make the PowerPoint presentation airdrop

onto the screen and all those kinds of

things which we've all seen before.

>> Yeah. I always anytime I go to speak um

I I spoke this past week uh in Santa

Barbara.

>> I went ahead of time before my speaking

time to to go I want to see what the

room looks like. I want to see how how

can I touch and say hi to the people

that are working AV. How can I meet

them? How can I if you really want to be

better as a professional speaker? Talk

to people in the crowd before you speak.

>> Get to know people's names. It's going

to naturally lower you. Get to know

their names. Ask them why they're here.

Say, "I'm so thankful that you're here.

I'm really looking forward to the

message and getting to talk to you

today." when you when you can go in and

touch people, it's a different sense

than if I'm going into a room totally

cold because you don't really have the

vibe. You don't really know how that is.

So, yeah, going into a restaurant ahead

of time, that's great. Not bringing your

phone, even better. You know, getting

able to be a sense of knowing

I I've been here before. I want to

welcome you to to my space. When we talk

about um people that have aura, you must

have met a lot of people in your career

and your life generally that you felt

had a sense of aura.

>> Yes.

>> What was it about them that gave them

that aura? What is it? It's a frequency

of

peace for me. I think of people and you

think of people in your life who you

have felt most

comfortable with. the person you feel

like I I can just be myself. I can

finally let everything down. Like for

me, it was my my grandparents house. As

soon as I walk in, it's a different

feeling of time kind of stands still.

They want to know about me. They want to

know how am I doing? They It's It's that

feeling. I could talk about people who

seem like they have aura and they just

have a a glow about them. It's usually

of they're not trying to prove anything

to anybody. They just naturally exude

that kind of charisma because of the

security of knowing who they are and

what they can do. And I guess what

what's the opposite of that then?

Sometimes it's easier to understand

something by understanding the opposite.

What would that look like?

>> I would say that

authentic people,

authentic aura as you said, doesn't come

from people

securing themselves to you. That's for

insecure people.

The people who are authentic know that I

am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you

want to rush? I'm I'm in really no rush.

I'm What happens today happens today. Is

it really due today or could it be done

tomorrow if I I had to? if it's a slower

pace. I I find that there is so much

kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on

these kind of things where and I'm from

Texas in the south. So it's it's kind of

this

knowing that the right time will come

when that time is right and not having

to push that. So if you want to look at

the opposite, it's the it's the opposite

of aura is insecure. It's named

dropping. It's having to be friends

immediately. It's having to prove to you

how much money I have or what. It's

everything else

being everything to everybody else

except myself.

Like people who have a sense of style,

their own sense of style naturally have

an aura. Why? Because they don't care

what in the world anybody else is

wearing. This is what I like. My

daughter, all right, she's six. We tried

setting out clothes. Forget [snorts] it.

She she can come down in a leopard print

tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she

wants. And you know what? She thinks she

is the flyest thing in the world. I mean

that's I never want to take that out of

her. The people who have a sense of

fashion, a sense of who I am and they

didn't have to look cool to anybody

social standard, but it's do they really

care what anybody else thinks? Usually

the people with aura do not. Mhm.

>> And sometimes when you come up against I

mean we were talking before we started

recording about since this book's

publication what have been people saying

to you what have the chapters um what

are the chapters that have stood out the

most to people and you mentioned that it

tends to be things around dealing with

difficult conversations dealing with

difficult people.

>> Right.

>> And one of the phrases that's been

arguably overused a lot in society is

this phrase gaslighting.

>> Yeah. And the definition of gaslighting

that I managed to pull was gaslighting

is psychological manipulation where one

person purposefully lies or manipulates

the other to make them doubt their own

reality, memory, or sanity.

>> Mhm.

>> Do people talk to you about gaslighting

a lot?

>> Yes.

>> Now that you've written this book?

>> Yes.

>> And what do you think gaslighting? It's

one of those things that's been used so

often that we almost have to like pause

for a second just to define it again.

>> Yes. Well, let me put it this way. The

difference between

gaslighting and lying. Lying is a

surface level of

I could tell you instead of having a

silver cup, this is a red cup. Well,

that would be a lie. Gaslighting is I'm

trying to alter your reality into mine.

I'm I'm trying to make you question how

other people perceive you, including

myself. How you perceive yourself. If

anybody's ever questioned, "Am I crazy?

Am I the crazy one? Is it Is it me? Is

it is everybody most likely you're

probably being gas and here's the truth.

I have been the gaslighter.

Everybody has been the gaslighter

whether they intentionally know it or

not. Because it's all that feeling of

preservation of defensiveness of I don't

want people to know the truth of of

what's happening in my life so I'm going

to mislead. In gaslighting, the intent

is to alter your reality, to make you

question what is real and what is not.

So, I might do something wrong and then

I might come home and know that I've

done something wrong and intentionally

try and sell my partner a version of

reality that makes them fundamentally

question what they know to try and spare

me

>> the critique or to control them.

>> Yes. To protect yourself. It's it's it's

selfpreservation.

Say, let's say you and your partner had

come home from a a dinner, all right?

And you're just in a very critical mood

and maybe you're trying to to distract

from something else that's going on in

your life and you're being critical of a

story that she shared at dinner and

you're like, why did you why would you

ever say that? And she goes, everything

was fine. You're like, fine. No, no, it

was not. Did you not see how they

reacted? No, no, no, no. Listen, I know

you don't want to hear this, but

everybody feels that, you know, you're a

little bit much. You and I and I'm I'm

the one that needs to tell you this. You

see how you're all of a sudden is

starting to alter how she feels in that

moment. And I've seen the the other side

of that. And it is it is not at all

something that you can come back from

without serious relationship work to be

able to find a way to say okay what's

how are we really walking in truth

because you get so far away from radical

honesty in conversation. So gaslighting

is is is not something to be taken

lightly. But I will say people often

apply to the wrong thing. They'll use it

as a sense of saying you're saying

something I don't like so you're

gaslighting me. You know, we're in an

argument and you're pointing out

something that hurt your feelings. Oh,

that's gaslighting, you know, and and

they they they use it as an excuse.

>> It's almost a form of gaslighting.

>> Exactly. That's exactly right. And it in

a weird way, it can reverse that way.

But imagine me saying something hurtful

to you and you go, "That really hurt my

feelings." I go, "That's just my

boundary. I just I have a boundary about

everything." Or, "This is you're just

gaslighting me." You know, I've never

met somebody who talked about their ex

without saying my narcissistic ex. you

know, I finally just got out of a

narcissistic relationship. It's never

us, right? It's always the other It's

always the other person. And so, there's

these words that we can kind of pepper

insult into sentences that are also

still another form if we look at it, a

form of self-preservation. Look at all

their bad and don't look at mine.

>> Why is it important that we don't

gaslight others? And I asked this

question because everybody listening now

is probably going to want the answer to

the question, which is what what do I do

about a gaslighter? Yeah. Yeah,

>> but this is avoiding the responsibility

that we all have a like a tendency or at

some point in our life have gaslighted

somebody else

>> and you know I don't think my audience

is just the gaslighted [laughter]

>> statistically clearly you're also all

the gaslighters

>> right

>> so how do um why is it important that we

don't gaslight other people and is there

a way for us to avoid

you know getting into a situation where

our back's against the wall and we end

up gaslighting one,

>> it's important not to gaslight somebody

because every time you do, you're

removing

yourself further and further from the

truth, the truth of how you feel, the

truth of your relationship. You are

withholding

reality from that other person rather

than having radical radical honesty

about what's what's happening. So it it

degrades the relationship. It degrades

another person's selfworth. And in many

ways, gaslighting steals their reality.

It's not something you can give back

without a lot of work. It it's it's

taking in some sense. Now, it can be

absolutely

intentional and it can also be

unintentional as a form of

self-preservation.

And if you feel like you are being

gaslit,

the secret to knowing is slowing down

the conversation.

If I am staying still in the

conversation, meaning you could say

something to me that's a form of

gaslighting, making me question, did I

oh my goodness, did I really say that?

Did I really hurt their feelings? No, I

did I and get into my head and I start

kind of jumping around and trying to

change what I did. But if I were to say,

"Stephen, I remember that differently."

And that's where I stop.

Then you can try other things. And I'm

going to repeat, "Yeah, I remember that

differently."

It's standing in the truth of what you

know rather than being concerned

and misled

by giving someone the reins and the

leash to drag you around.

And if I um if I think about I think

it's thinking about all the times where

I've I think I might have gas gas gas

gas lit someone you know in

relationships backs against the wall um

and you're having an argument with

someone or

>> it's quite difficult in my head to know

the difference between the word like

just tell saying something that isn't

necessarily true or is that is your

perception of things versus like

gaslighting

>> is the is the difference in your mind

intention

>> like is if I if I give my version of

reality

>> yeah We were at that party. You said

this thing. I saw the person roll their

eyes and then they walked away. I think

they're really offended. I think you

offended them,

>> right?

>> What's the difference between that and

me gaslighting someone

>> of between lying and gaslighting or it's

>> Yeah. Like I'm trying to understand in

in that context you gave about going to

a party, someone said something and then

they walk up. What's the difference

between if that's how you saw reality

and you're communicating it versus

gaslighting someone?

>> It to the intention.

>> It's the intention. The tension is I'm

the one in control, not you.

>> Okay.

>> So, you are trying to control the

narrative. You are trying to be both

director, producer, and actor

>> for your own agenda.

>> That's right. For your own film

>> and for control.

>> I'm I'm the character in my own movie.

I'm the main character. And you need to

behave this way. You need to believe

this. You need to act upon that. And so

the more I can try to manipulate that

reality

and what's so wild is it becomes so

manipulated that you believe it too. Now

now that that falsehood has now become

your fact in some sense that the really

good liars convince themselves that that

lie is is the truth. Is there a certain

type of person that's more susceptible

to being gaslit or to being victimized

in any way with conversation in your

view?

>> Anxious attachment. The ones that are

they

people who can't regulate by themselves,

they have to co-regulate.

Meaning

most of the time men are were good

self-regulators. Just give me some time

by myself. Give me an evening. Give me

an hour. Let me walk outside. I'll and

I'll regulate myself.

Most of the time, it's been my

experience. Women are not like that.

They co-regulate most of them. They they

need you to also make them feel good.

They can't be good if you're not good.

We're not good. I'm not good if if

you're not okay. So, it's it's that

whole I'm not okay if you're not okay.

And so in many ways they need you to be

able to calm down themselves and they

they don't self-regulate as well. And so

the people who are most susceptible to

gaslighting are ones who need

co-regulation.

People who are anxious anxious

attachment meaning they they need uh are

you okay? Are you good? Do you need

anything? Are you sure you're not okay?

and versus the people who are more

avoidant and three the the people who

are are typically more insecure.

>> So do you think women get gas lit more

than men?

>> Yes.

>> But women still gaslight women, right?

>> Of course.

>> But just men are more

>> when you're talking relationships. When

you're talking relationships, that's my

personal opinion is because from my

feedback from the people that have read

my book and the people who give me

feedback on my book, Yeah. It's majority

vast majority are are women. I'm not

saying that's some empirical study on

it. But what I will say is

women are just as capable of gaslighting

and gas women can certainly gaslight

women. And it's I I'm saying this with

the mindset of everybody gaslights

whether they know it or not. And they

have in the past. Most likely they can

think of a time in the past where they

did without knowing it. But it is that

would be my opinion that most of the

time men are the ones that do it to

women.

>> Just reading some research here that

says multiple studies on emotional abuse

in heterosexual relationships show women

report higher rates of gaslighting and

coercive control than men. Men do report

gaslighting too, but less frequently and

usually in different forms. Um, and as

it relates to workplace data, surveys

from management and organizational

psychology show women are more likely to

have their competence questioned, their

memory doubted, or their experience

dismissed.

Women in male-dominated fields report

the highest rates of gaslighting, and

women of color report even higher rates

of being told their perception is wrong

or misinterpret or that they're

misinterpreting things.

>> Sounds like that tracks.

And also in medical settings, women are

less likely to be to be believed about

their symptoms. Women's pain is

underestimated. Women get later

diagnoses for multiple conditions like

heart disease and autoimmune disorders,

ADHD and autism. And the list goes on

and on and on. If I had to say who does

more, you know, I'm not trying to put

some kind of like headline of men do it

more than women. In my experience, it

tends to be the guy. And you know what

does that that information show me? It

shows me that that sounds about right. I

do think from the people that follow my

content, listen to my content because I

stay very connected to my community of

so many women say I feel like I'm in

this workplace and they are doubting my

competence. They're doubting my ability

to make decisions. I'm not being

believed. I'm putting I'm I'm being put

down. I'm whether it's not even their

experience. it's just because of their

gender. And those are real those are

real questions. Does that mean that

that's gaslighting? Probably not all the

time. But for me to say, ah, that's

that's a dumb complaint. Uh, you know,

that's just complaining. In many ways,

when you start denying that reality,

then you have the same problem. Do you

know I am I've I've hired thousands of

people over the last decade and I have

to say sometimes it's it's difficult to

understand the plight of someone else

when you haven't lived their experience

like you haven't been a woman or

whatever. It's like very difficult. So,

you kind of just have to take them for

their word sometimes if you've not lived

it yourself or you can look at data or

whatever else.

>> And I do have to say that I have

experienced

>> male executives who were

extremely dismissive of their female

peers in a way that was 100%

inconsistent as it relates to genders.

What I mean by that is I can think of

several male executives over the years

who I observed

dismissing or diminishing or not giving

the woman in the room the same credit

really for no other reason than she was

a woman. And so it's a very real thing.

And it's not every man, I have to say

this, but there is a certain particular

type of person

>> who for some reason in my experience

would see a woman in the in the

workplace or in the high sort of upper

echelons of the professional um uh

environment as being less than them just

because of her gender. So when I hear,

you know, what you're saying about women

are predominantly come, you know, coming

to you talking about these issues of

gaslighting, it does kind of track with

what I've seen. I'll tell you this. I've

never had a man come to me in all this

time that I've been from my book to my

content this number of years ever say I

think I'm being gaslit. It is it has

always been the woman.

>> Never.

>> Never.

>> What about the conversation around like

dealing with narcissists? Cuz this feels

like it's kind of one and the same. The

words are used in the same sort of

vernacular but

>> Yeah.

>> Do you have men coming to you saying

that I think my partner's a narcissist?

Yes, you do.

>> Yeah, that I do have. Yeah, it's always

it's always they're married to one or

just got out of a relationship with one,

but it's never them.

>> And what what do you say to someone who

is dealing with an artist who is dealing

with someone who repeatedly gas

gaslights them? Let's say it's in the

context of work.

>> Yeah.

>> What are they meant to do? Quit their

job.

>> Well, that is an option. So, let's not

rule that out.

>> Okay.

>> Um if it's if it's worth it to you

because that's that's the question of

what's your what's your purpose here?

And this is where you're going to be

forever. Then there's some things we

need to put in place. But what are you

to do? You are to limit the interaction

like limit the exposure. Talk less

neutral statements.

So if you can many ways you can just

limit the amount of physicality of I

don't have to see you. I don't have to

communicate with you. I know you work

three doors down but I don't have to be

your best friend and you certainly don't

have to be mine. Two is understanding

the game that you're in. It's a it's a

game for narcissists of praise or

provoke. Meaning, if I am not showering

you with praise, then the narcissist

will turn to provoke in order to create

an argument for the same effect. They

they delight in frustration just as may

just as much as they delight in your

praise because they get the same type of

control. I have seen so many expert

witnesses in my field that are that I

what I would term are narcissists. They

they they can never possibly be wrong.

They they don't do empathy. And again,

this is me with the understanding of

hey, we all have narcissistic

tendencies. You know, we all have

narcissistic traits and narcissism is a

diagnosible condition that you can have.

I think more people would qualify more

than they think. But how do you handle

it daytoday is know knowing what kind of

game you're in and it's a game you're

just not going to play. I know I don't

have to say anything to that person.

Two, I'm going to limit my distance to

them. And three, I'm going to use

neutral statements. I'm going to use

neutral statements like that's good to

know. Thanks for sharing. Noted and

things that they can't grab on to and

continue to have in a conversation. When

you think of like the hallmarks of of of

a really really one of these types of

people, what are the way the

characteristics that I could should be

looking out for? If I'm dealing with one

such person who is is going to try and

manipulate me, it's going to try and

gaslight me. What what do they do? They

can never be happy for anybody but

themselves.

They can't be happy for you. They can't

be happy for other people. These are the

type that if you were to say, "Hey, did

you see that Stephen just got this

award? Isn't that so great? You just

nominated for whatever." And they go, "I

mean, that's I guess that's fine. You

know, I when I did this," and they start

talking about themselves.

They can never be happy for somebody

else. They can't be happy for you. It's

they have to find some way to turn the

conversation of why the world is so hard

and so pitiful for them that the world

was against them and they couldn't get

it, but they were just as deserving. I

mean, I guess that's fine. And I mean,

you know, I do this, but nobody nobody

listens. Nobody really cares. They find

that they have a very victim mentality.

So, two is a victim mentality.

Everything happens to them in some way.

And three, they can't feel for other

people. They don't do emotion. It's it's

always about the perception of what

others would think. They're very very

sensitive to how others might portray

them. So, they're going to give you a

different view than they give other

people. And so, the couple might be

terrible,

but for a narcissist, they're going to

put on face that the relationship is

perfect to everybody else. And everybody

goes, "You you must be so blessed to be

married to that person." And you're

going, "You kidding me? They're they're

fooling everybody." And it's a very

helpless position.

>> Have you ever had a narcissist try and

pray on you?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the legal

field, man. Expert witnesses have

opinions to them that are

unquestionable. You can't this is their

opinion and nobody else could ever argue

with it when I have another expert who

says just the opposite. So a lot of the

times they are very condescending

you know that's fine and they have their

opinion and this is all there is and how

dumb of you to ever question me. And

usually what gives it away is if I feel

like this is somebody that okay they're

they can't be reasonable. They're never

going to give an inch on what's

reasonable.

I will ask this. I'll say this is

typically in a deposition. I'll say and

you think the juryy's going to like

that.

And or you think other people are going

to agree with you and all of a sudden

they kind of change in an instant to be

able to match what the jury is going to

think. So, if I were to say, and you

think and you think that's okay, and you

think others are going to find that

okay, and you think that the jury when

they hear this, they're they're all

going to agree with this very hardline

opinion. I've seen it every time. Or

they that's it's only when I reference

other people, the presentation of

themselves to other people that they

kind of put on a a show.

>> Why?

because they know that

the perception of the crowd is

everything. They need everybody to like

them, to fawn over them. They they want

their idea to to be the best. And so

they will manipulate the situation to be

the chameleon to to make sure that

everybody loves them at least in in

their mind. It's not a it's not a

reasonable thought. So they will

typically change their opinion to sound

more palatable even though they could

have admitted to that you know two hours

into the deposition.

>> Do they tend to talk more or less than

the average person in the room?

>> Much more.

>> Is there a thin line between just being

insecure and being a narcissist? Because

you know one of the things I was

thinking about is you said earlier that

they tend to bring everything back to

themselves. And I was thinking about all

the people that I know that if we were

having a conversation about your book

doing really really well, the first

response to that would be their mention

of their own book like they would

immediately bring it straight back to

something about them. And I was

wondering some of those people I just

have in the category of just being a

little bit insecure and that they just,

you know, they're a search for

validation. So I'm wondering where where

you think the line might be between sort

of narcissistic behavior and just like

extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a

line. Maybe extreme insecurity is

narcissism.

>> Both can be true. You know, I' I'd say

that

not all insecure people are narcissists,

but all narcissists are insecure.

[clears throat]

>> Um, I would I would say that if I had to

give some kind of line, it would be the

interest for growth.

Insecure people are looking for ways to

grow and to secure and attach.

Narcissists, they're not looking for

anybody to attach on to. They're looking

for people to support them, you know, to

please them. And so it they have no

interest in growth. They to them they've

learned all they've have to learn. I I

am the best. I I cannot improve anymore.

That to me would be the difference.

>> When you dealt with narcissists in your

own life and in the courtroom,

what is the reason why they couldn't

prey on you? What did you do as defense

to stop their games, their typical games

working on you? I don't chase their

words.

Often, one of the biggest things I see

wrong in conversation

is a narcissist will, same for a

gaslighter, they'll dig a hole. All

right? And then they expect you to fill

it.

Meaning, they're going to say something

to frustrate you and you go, "No, no,

that's not what happened. Don't you

remember?" and you start chasing it and

then they just dig another hole and you

keep going and you keep going and you're

exhausted because all you've been doing

is trying to plug holes. You're not

having a real conversation.

And when I can give it a very clear

definition, a very clear signal of

noted, you know, I'm just going to stay

right there. I'm going to see I'm going

to put down the shovel and stay right

there with them. and maybe I'll say

something as neutral as got it. I don't

have to chase it. I don't have to say

anything. And and to me, the the people

that have those narcissistic traits,

once they realize that they're going to

have no game with you, that you're not

going to play, they find somebody else.

They find somebody. If you've ever had

somebody come to you and they're the

more emotionally toxic type of person,

they always have some kind of problem.

They come with you and they have this

problem. and you go, I I just I can't

right this moment. I will. And 10

minutes later, what's happened? They

don't have that issue. They've already

gone to talk to somebody else.

>> I was watching uh Dame Dash on the

Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've

seen it, [laughter]

>> but it's really

>> another Breakfast Club,

>> but it's it's Dame Dash is on there

because he he was um he filed for

bankruptcy and Charlemagne is sat there

>> and Charlemagne [clears throat] is I've

actually interviewed both of them, both

Dame and Charlemagne. And Charlemagne is

very relaxed and every once in a while

just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's

broke. And then Dame Dash is like very

like hotaded and like trying to prove

prove all the reasons why he's not broke

and like really like you know gassing

him. And I it was it was an interesting

it's an interesting video to watch. I

think it's the more recent one that came

out within the last year because it does

show in my view how to deal with someone

who has a very has a significant ego.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is Charlemagne just never changes

state. Like no matter what the volume

is, no matter how much emotion, no

matter when he starts calling him some

quite personal insults, Charlemagne's

demeanor, his tone, his posture,

>> yeah,

>> doesn't change.

>> Unbothered. unbothered. And you can see

it's super triggering that you just

can't get to this guy. Like it looks

like Dame is like really annoyed that he

and he tries to say more offensive

things. He calls you're a you're this,

you're that, the other.

>> And it's funny cuz I was watching it

this morning and it for me it kind of

tracks with a lot of the stuff you're

saying about like just not going with

them.

>> Yeah.

>> Just not following them where because

they want you to go somewhere and

there's a certain conflict they want to

get in with you and if you just kind of

refuse and just stay anchored to

whatever your point of view is, it's

it's funny to watch. They want to push

you.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. My my dad I can remember growing

up I'd be in the passenger seat. He's

driving

>> and you ever had it where somebody

you're in the passenger seat and

somebody's just rearing the bumper right

on them

>> and and I and I'd be looking in the side

mirror. I'm like I kind of start

stressing out for him. You know,

somebody's really riding the bumper, you

know, right behind him.

>> And I mean just like clockwork. what he

would do, we have shoulders on our in on

the roads there in Texas, and rather

than trying to speed up or get mad, he

would just kind of pull over to the

shoulder and he would say this every

time. He'd say, "Go on with your bad

self." Every time he go, "Go on with

your bad self in the rearview mirror."

Like, that's how unbothered he was by

that of I feel like so many people get

road rage as so many people talk out

loud to the cars while they're while

they're driving.

And he it just never got him worked up.

And realizing

my value and my worth of knowing who I

am is not at all determined

by

where you feel I should go. It goes back

to that idea of if you want to tell me

the sky is purple, knock yourself out.

You know, I I don't have to be right and

you don't have the ability to to push

me. I can move and you have your own. I

I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't

have to match anybody else's. So when

somebody is unbothered, it's not because

they don't care. It's not for lack of

care.

It's an understanding. It's discernment

of knowing

I know who I am in this moment and why

in the world would I try to be anybody

else?

>> Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all

be untriggerable?

It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure.

>> It's interesting because again, just

reflecting on that interview I watched

this morning, when Dame Dash calls

Charlemagne something really, really

offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I

immediately look at Charlemagne

to see his reaction to figure out if

what Dame Dash just said was true.

And do you see what I'm saying? So he he

turned to him and said, "You're ex,

>> right?"

>> And then Charlemagne just kind of

laughed and like

>> it just it was like water off a duck's

back. So immediately as the viewer I go,

"Well, that can't be true then because

Charlemagne doesn't seem to care."

>> Exactly. Well, it's it's not the lack of

a care. It's

it's just the opposite. It's all the

more care of knowing who he is. So, if I

were to tell you right now, I hate your

purple shirt. It's the most ugliest

purple shirt I've ever seen, Stephen.

Like your shirt is so ugly in that

purple. Does it affect you whatsoever?

>> No, because I'm not wearing a purple

shirt for anyone that's an apple.

>> That's right. [laughter]

That's a good point. Right. But you see

how you you already know the

characteristics of of you. You already

know what you're wearing.

>> And it's not just your clothes. I'm I'm

wearing my confidence. I'm wearing

everything that your parents, your your

loved ones have instilled and put on

you. I am I am wearing the armor of my

faith. I I am I have all these other

things that I'm wearing. And if you want

to say my shirt's purple, that that

doesn't affect me at all because that's

that's not who I am. And so so often

people get mixed up of arguing about no,

I don't have a purple shirt on.

>> When why would you ever argue with that?

They they it's that quote by Abraham

Lincoln that I love.

if never argue with a fool because an

onlooker

>> can never know the difference, right?

And so it's it's knowing no, I I know

exactly who I am and what I'm wearing.

>> And this sort of speaks to the fact that

your reaction determines how onlookers

will interpret everything that's

happening.

>> Like, you know,

>> oh, the worst thing you could do to

somebody who insults you is laugh. I

mean, what does it do? It I mean, it it

it infuriates them, right? But when the

same thing with a bully, a bully says

something to you that they know is meant

to hurt you.

And if I were to turn around and say,

"Did you say that to to embarrass me?" I

mean, what are they going to do? They

they could say yes, they could say no.

But either way, you're realizing I'm not

going to get any reaction. What you're

showing them is for you to do this, it's

just not going to be fun for you. It's

going to be zero fun whatsoever for you.

And so, they'll find that with somebody

somebody else. It's it's always your

reaction that's going to determine how

the conversation goes forward.

>> There's a lot of people listening right

now that are a long way away from that.

Very easily triggered.

>> Yeah.

>> Seeking justice, you know, whatever it

might be. For those people, is it like a

muscle they have to build or is there

what is the journey to getting to this

level of sort of mastery?

>> It's a discipline. It is in the same way

that people invest in so many other

things in our life. We invest in our

health. We invest in self-help books. We

invest in the podcasts that we listen

to. It is the same. You have to invest

in your communication. We don't get

taught in school. We don't, you know, I

I went to law school. People think I

learned this in law school. No. Law

school teaches you how to read the law.

It doesn't teach you how to read people.

You had to. To me, if you are somebody

that is in a position of expertise and

to share something, it either came at

great personal cost or you're making it

up like it it it is something that you

have learned, right? [laughter]

>> It's true. And so I mean whether it's

through skill, knowledge, training, it's

I've you want to know how that I know

these things because I've lived it. You

know, I I have been on the bad side.

I've been on the good side. And it's it

is not it's never something that's just

going to come to you.

>> We are emotional creatures and we're

hormonal creatures.

>> Mhm. So, how do how do you think about

our emotions, our hormones, our health,

our physical, cognitive state as it

relates to like walking into the

courtroom and being ready? Like how much

of it, you know, because if I've had

zero hours sleep and I'm, I don't know,

hungry and whatever else and I'm had an

argument, I'm stressed about something,

it's going to be significantly harder to

show up and be a great communicator and

win the argument against somebody,

>> right?

>> So, do you think about these things

>> all the time? I mean, the emotions are

are right there connected to the words.

And what do you how do you prepare to be

ready for battle?

>> It's an emotional awareness of how I'm

feeling

and also how the other person is because

if I just respond me Yeah. If I respond

to their emotional reaction, I'll miss

it every time. Same thing in

relationships. If I respond to the

reaction, I'll lose that moment to

actually speak to the need. So even in

the courtroom for me, if I know that I'm

a little sleepy, I know I'm a little

hungry, I'm a little grumpy, you know

what? I can either try and pretend that

I'm not. Or I might get up in front of

the jury and say, "Good morning,

everybody. I have to admit to you, I'm a

little grumpy. I didn't need all that

much this morning. Anybody else grumpy?"

And everybody starts to kind of nod. And

now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to

my words, but now to the feeling. And

now you trust me more. I trust you more

because I'm being more authentic.

>> And do you think people should do that

in their own interpersonal relationships

which is just call out their state?

>> Absolutely. Because perfection is not

relatable. Struggle is emotions are. If

I were to come to you and say and you

say how are you and I go good

everything's good when it is not. Am I

being authentic or am I being fake? But

if I were to say, "Let me tell you, I've

had a morning and it's tested me in a

way I was not expecting and my mind is

just not here." Does that make you trust

me more or trust me less?

>> Trust me more

>> every time.

>> So, when you can share your struggles

with people, I'm not talking about your

deepest inner desire struggles. I'm

saying, let me put it this way. Sierra

and I check in with each other every

morning. It's my wife.

And it's only about 10 minutes after she

drops the kid off, uh, kids off. And

we kind of run through how we're doing.

And the number one thing she asks me or

tells me, he goes, "You told me a lot

about what you're doing. You haven't

told me about how you're feeling." And

that's that's the truth of the default,

I think, of a lot of men and a lot of

people. I'm going to tell you what's

going on, what's on my agenda, what I'm

doing. I haven't told you a lot about

how I'm feeling. And we store all that

stuff up because it's still there. But

if I can share with you,

what is my struggle? What's happening?

Not just the good, but more importantly

the the bad.

I mean that it's always going to bring

that authenticity into the play.

>> Women and men are very different in many

ways. And [laughter]

>> yeah,

>> we're very different in many ways. Men

are I I don't know. It feels like men

just, you know, and again, I'm I'm

stereotyping here, so it's not all men

and

>> of course people are different, but just

speaking generally, the stereotype is

that men are a typically a bit more

emotionally composed or should I say

flat and women have uh more emotional

fluctuations. One could look at hormone

changes throughout the month and talk

about why that might be, etc., etc. I've

had many scientists here talk to me

about hormone fluctuations and how that

impacts how someone feels. But what this

means in our romantic relationships is

sometimes we meet each other on very

different wavelengths.

>> Yeah.

>> So in my relationship, my partner's

probably seen me cry once,

>> right?

>> In seven years, maybe twice, but

probably once.

I've probably seen her cry

500 times, [laughter] maybe more.

>> Yeah.

>> So it feels it almost feels like I'm

just going to be completely honest

because I just think it's helpful. So

you can [ __ ] me up online if you want.

But I it sometimes feels like

we're we're a different species.

>> Like the way that I interact with my guy

friendss and the way that the sort of

wavelength that my romantic partner my

my my girlfriend operates on are very

very different. So it's very easy to

like misunderstand. And we spend a lot

of time talking about how men need to be

more emotional and more I don't know men

need to change how the how they are.

Yeah. Because it's the problem. But

what about the like what about the other

side of that which is

[laughter]

do

do women also need to think about

do we need to meet in the middle

[laughter]

is what I'm saying

>> there certainly is space to meet in the

middle

>> like who's right in that I don't know is

is is there a person that's right in

this configuration am I meant to be way

more emotional and be or or is she meant

to be way more composed cuz I I think

that's often how both sides feel. They

feel like, why aren't you coming to my

wavelength on this issue? But I think

here's what you're missing. She would be

much more composed if you would be more

emotional.

>> And so a lot of the times what I find in

my own marriage is when I show emotion,

the more composed she is.

>> I mean, if I start screaming and crying,

I I think my girlfriend's

>> I'm not saying screaming. I'm I'm saying

show emotion. What kind of emotion

>> of being in it with her?

>> And what does that look like?

>> That means you're going to say things

that make her feel it. There's a

difference if I just go static. That's

what happens to me a lot. Uh truthfully,

is let's say we're in an argument about

something or something came up and see

emotional about it. If I dismiss it,

okay, this is so dumb really right now.

This is because arguments never come at

the most opportune time. They come at

the worst possible time. Yeah, that's

hello. That's all relationships. If I

dismiss it, right, does that make her

come closer to me or further away from

me? And if I'm pushing her further away

from me, why would she not be more

emotional? Why why would she why would

she not be further away from me if I

dismiss that? For every woman to be more

emotional as a man, tears are not

necessary.

connection is being in it is saying

things that make her feel that you're

you're genuinely feeling it. The

difference I find with men and what I

struggle with is I can say that I'm sad.

I have a hard time expressing sad. I can

say that I'm really regretful. I have a

hard time

expressing that. I think that is

something that happens a lot with most

relationships and I think that happens a

lot with men of we were emotional and we

got taught early that

you you were not to cry. We I couldn't

even tell you how many times I ever saw

my dad cry.

>> I think this is it. The modeling we had

as well is my dad was either angry or

completely static. And when I say angry,

he was very very rarely angry. But but

when I saw him engage with my mom on an

emotional level, it would be

>> him yelling back,

>> right?

>> If he wasn't yelling back, he was

completely just like he was just very

calm, static, emotional. There was no in

between.

>> Yeah. It's it all comes down to repair.

How quickly you get to repair. That

means can I validate the feeling that

she has?

Validation

is repair. It's not weakness. It's

repair. In my world,

relationships don't fall apart because

of one big failure. They fall apart

because of a hundred moments where

repair could have happened and it

didn't. You just chose not to. Or you

could have said, "I'm sorry," but you

withheld it. I could have chose to

validate how you're feeling, but I said

that's stupid. And it's it's those the

hundreds of those little bitty moments

where all of a sudden, no wonder your

your world's apart because you chose in

those little bitty moments not to do the

repair because you said, "Ah, this is so

stupid. This so small." Yeah, it is

small. All the more reason why you

should repair pretty quickly. And so

when you can validate those concerns,

even when you say she's being emotional,

you're not.

When you go into that static mode, when

I go into that static mode, it's a

choice by me to do something different,

not say the thing I always say, not be

dismissive, not find ways to try and

convince her that she shouldn't feel

this way, but if I validate, if I say

things like, I can see how you feel that

way. If that's how you interpreted it,

you know what? I don't blame you for

feeling that way. I I can see that. That

sounds scary. That sounds frustrating.

If I can choose that it's it's this like

this isn't the key for me and trust me

I'm talking to myself here.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Because every every guy I feel

like can be like, "Okay, this is right."

And if I can

make the hard choice in that moment to

put aside my frustration just for a

moment, put aside my personal

frustration

and validate the feeling and say words

that speak to her need, the need to feel

heard, the need to feel safe, the need

to feel like she's not being too much.

Then all of a sudden, it all shrinks.

And you know what? my frustration kind

of goes away. Why? Because everything's

better now. We've we've had moments of

repair. And then if I still am really

frustrated, then I can bring it up. Hey,

can I can I bring up something to you

that you said that's really bothering

me? And then you do it.

>> How as a man do you know that you're not

setting a bad precedence for the future?

And what I mean here is

>> Yeah. if I constantly, you know, justify

how she's feeling and I and I seek

repair and then when she's happy, I just

let it go. There's I think sometimes

there's a worry as a man that if you

just lay down and take everything, then

you're just going to get more stuff in

the future. Like you're setting a bad

precedence for the future of this

relationship where no, sometimes

actually no, I wasn't in the wrong or oh

no, I did I I do disagree with this.

>> Right? And I think I've observed a lot

of relationships, especially with some

of my guy friends where because they

like never stood up for themselves,

they're now like living in a prison,

>> right?

>> They like never stood up for themselves.

>> Yes.

>> And so they're they've kind of lost all

of their autonomy and agency and control

and they,

>> you know, even when you're listening to

this, there's probably people you can

think of in your life where the guy has

always opted for an easy life in the

short term and now over the long term,

he has a really hard one.

>> Yes.

>> And again, men and women,

>> of course. So this is the balance I'm

trying to understand in your view is you

know when do you pick the fight and when

do you say no that's not

versus just laying down and taking it.

This is quite [laughter] per this is

quite personal to me as well because I

think my dad did that a bit too much. I

think my dad, he never he never chose to

fight. And then I look I look at how

that played out over 20 years and I'm

like, damn, it's completely changed me

because it means that I will now go

through the conflict

>> and stand up for myself when I hit a

place where I'm like that I'm not going

to be able to honor that for you for the

next 30 years. I will stand my ground.

Do you know if there's like an area

where um we might my say my girlfriend's

unhappy about a certain thing I do.

>> Yeah. If I don't think that I'm I'm

going to be able to promise to not do

that for the next like 10, 20, 30 years,

if I if I'm unwilling to change, Yes. I

have to stand my ground because if I

concede today, it's hell tomorrow.

>> Yeah. What what I'm hearing what I'm

hearing is fear of autonomy, fear of my

rights, fear of my

>> dominance.

>> Yeah. Like my freedom being Yeah. Well,

it's it's you want to hear the probably

the number one word you'll hear with

relationships that are on the brink.

It's caged. Men feels caged. You know,

the man feels caged. And really all that

is, it's a lack of confidence

of knowing

if I am willing to do something

different,

then I can't have anything else. So it's

it's it's thinking in terms of

zero sum. See, both can be true. I can

you can still validate how she's feeling

and not at all touch what you still know

to be true. So you can still disagree

with her, but every time we go into a

conversation, we walk in with a need, a

need to feel loved, understood, it is

always depth. Like you think of um like

a kid, right? My son, my daughter, if

when she was small and she screamed or

she cried or told me no, still tells me

no, you know, of all these things and I

just said no. Are you kidding me? You're

going to tell me and I you're crying

right now? Really? And I get all upset

when she screams. But with kids, we

don't do that. We go she's hungry. She's

tired. She's scared. M

>> and we just forget that we're all just

big kids and we all have those like

hidden needs underneath us and so you

still can stand your ground and say

so let's run it. So let's say for

example

>> an example a specific example from my

ex-girlfriend I was on my phone in bed

and I was sending a message cuz there's

something going on my in my business

back in the UK and I was in I was in

Asia at the time.

>> Yeah. And she said to me that she wanted

to make a rule where there was never any

phones in bed ever. I could never touch

my phone in the bedroom.

>> Right?

>> And as I thought this through, I

thought, God, I thought about all the

scenarios where I might need to touch my

phone in the bedroom. And what would I I

realized that what would end up

happening is I just wouldn't come into

the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in

the in [clears throat] the toilet or the

shower or I just like I wouldn't come to

bed if I needed to do something on my

phone,

>> right? And so the conversation went

where I was like I I realized in this

moment I had to kind of like not lay

down on this issue because I would

disappoint her in the future.

>> I was setting myself up to fail in the

future if I if I accepted this and made

her some kind of promise or you know

agreed that we I wasn't going to touch

my phone ever again in the bedroom.

>> And so that was one such example where

I'm like I think [clears throat] I

actually need to stand my ground a bit

here or I'm setting myself up for a

future expectation I can't meet.

So in that moment, what did you think

her need was?

>> Her need was connection. And she was

interpreting me being on the phone in

that space as a disconnection in some

way.

>> And could it possibly be perceived as

that?

>> 100%.

>> Okay.

>> But it wasn't the phone. It was the it

was the it was me not it was her not

feeling connected I in my view it at

that moment in time in that particular

week because I was so busy in that

particular week that I think she was

trying to find a a symptom or a tool or

a guarantee or a promise to express the

feeling of disconnection. So that's why

I look back on it and go it was actually

something else that was just a symptom

of a feeling she had at that moment in

time probably.

>> Right. But that was an example where

like I if id conceded it would have it

would not have been sustainable. There

would have been arguments in the future.

>> I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying

there are times that if you want the key

to the relationship, it is putting her

comfort over your inconvenience.

>> So what should I have done in that

situation? Give me some advice. Do you

think?

>> Well, you've already kind of named it.

one, she's it's not you saying what the

wrong thing to say is, "Well, you were

just on your phone. I mean, you just I

mean, you're on your phone all your

time. You're on the phone all the time.

What are you talking about?" And you

start arguing because now you're you're

responding to the reaction. You're not

addressing the need. If you were to slow

down

and say, "Look, I I still want to be

connected with you. Is there any kind of

place where I can still take care of

what I need to take care of?" and also

be connected to you. Or if there's a

situation where you say, "Well, what

about this?"