Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Okay, cool.

>> Why? Why would I hate my tattoos?

>> Because you get older and they get all

smudgy. And

>> Mine are getting kind of smudgy.

>> Yeah, look at this one.

>> It's pretty smudgy. Pretty [ __ ]

smudgy.

I I owned a tattoo parlor in

I don't know what year it was, mid80s.

And they were illegal in Indiana, but

because it was me, they said, "Okay,

leave him alone."

>> Really?

>> Mhm.

>> I remember when they were illegal in New

York. I used to I went to Connecticut to

get my first tattoo.

>> Yeah. I uh

I didn't know it was illegal, but I met

this guy in LA and uh he worked at

Sunset, you know, where the Hyatt houses

and there was a tattoo parlor right

across the street.

Anyway, he was there and uh

so I brought him to Bloomington because

he wanted to get out of LA

and guess why? They closed me down.

>> Why?

>> [ __ ] guy was a heroin addict.

I know. And he did this tattoo one time

and I went over I just went over to the

shop. I said, "Hey, let's do this

little" and he was all [ __ ] up.

And it was just like what's wrong with

it? You know, cuz I didn't know. I don't

know anything about heroin addicts. So,

there wasn't a lot of heroin addicts

back then. That was a rare thing. Now, I

mean, think about how many people are

because of the Sackler family. Think of

how many people are hooked on opiates

today. I mean, it's got to be lots.

>> It's off the charts in comparison to

what it was like in, you know, the

1980s. There's I mean, I knew one guy

that uh had a friend who did heroin.

That's it.

>> Well, I was at a The first time I saw

somebody do heroin was uh

I was in college and there was a place

called Bull Island that tried to imitate

Woodstock.

and me and my then wife and a kid and a

little girl and uh

and my roommate who lived with us. We're

just walking down there and we see this

guy shooting up. So, we just thought,

well, we'll watch

cuz he was just sitting right there and

I mean there was like 200,000 people

there.

And he shot

and he went out.

And I looked at the guy I was with go,

we won't be doing this.

We're not going to do this.

I had a friend who was a long shoreman

and he worked with this guy that every

lunchtime he would go and score and sit

in his truck and shoot up and that's

what he did every lunch. He was a

functional heroin addict and he would

show up for work every day and he did

his job.

But uh during lunchtime, during his

hour, he would do heroin and just

[ __ ] find his happy place and then an

hour later go back to work

>> and he and the one shot would last all

day.

>> I don't know. I don't know if he did

hero I didn't ask if he did heroin after

that as well. I'm assuming he probably

did.

But he was a functional heroin addict.

Like guy kept a full job. He was in the

union

and everybody knew this guy would go on

his break, shoot up.

>> Last time I did drugs was 1973.

>> What was the reason you stopped?

>> Want to hear?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Well, I used to like to

smoke.

and drink whiskey

and then I like to fight.

>> Oh, that's problem.

>> I couldn't whip anybody.

I could I could

but I loved the contact and the the the

rush of like, you know, starting the

fight. But so anyway,

I was in college and

my roommate and I went to this downtown

bar, which we'd never been to, and I sat

at the bar and I would start these

fights, you know, just a prick.

And uh

I was sitting next to this big guy and

uh

for whatever reason, I thought it was a

good idea if I spit on him. Oh,

>> one of those guys. You know, you know

those guys that get drunk?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, that was me.

So I did and

we went out back and he left me in the

alley like a wet rag. I mean, he beat

the [ __ ] out of me. Beat the [ __ ] out of

me. And I was a hippie. I had hair down

to here.

And they, the guy, my roommate, was

driving me home in an old pinto.

And I was leaning on the door like this.

I was so [ __ ] up from getting beat up.

I mean, the ores around my face were

this big. And I was leaning on the door

and all of a sudden he went over track

and I fell out of the car. Got my hair

wrapped around the jigma flop that holds

the car. And the guy that I'm with drunk

driving,

he didn't even know I fell out of the

car. And I'm going, "Stop the car.

Stop." He went, "Oh."

And um

so I got up the next morning and I

looked at myself

and I was unrecognizable. I had road

rash on my arms. My knees were all

[ __ ] up.

my face was beat up from the and I just

said, you know, this drug and alcohol

thing is not working for you.

And so I I went and got all my hair cut

off. Not as short as yours, but not much

longer.

And uh that was it.

>> Well, you found your rock bottom.

>> Yeah, that's what they say. They say you

need to find rock bottom. I would never

imagine that you would be the type of

guy that would [ __ ] with people at a bar

and spit on somebody and start a fight.

It just you just don't seem like that at

all.

>> Well, I grew up in a small town and uh

there was not much to do in a small

town.

Uh you know, you would either uh find a

girl or or fight

just

>> I figured you for the find the girl type

guy. Well, you know, I I I was uh I did

okay with that, but it didn't always

work. So, yeah. Yeah. It was like uh

Don't forget, Joe, it was like 19676.

You weren't You weren't even born yet.

>> I was born ' 67.

>> Yeah. So, this is like 1967.

>> Wow. So, you know, so from that time on

until I turned 21. I was 21 when I quit

using drugs and quit smoking, quit

drinking.

>> Wow. Nothing since then.

>> Not a drop.

>> That's impressive.

>> Not a drop. Well, you know, I think I've

thought about and I think that I didn't

really like it that much,

>> you know, as much as I thought I did.

>> Well, you certainly didn't like the

results, right? One bad result will

>> what do you

>> set you straight.

>> Yeah. What do you Yeah.

>> You were uh a big part of my high school

experience. It it was interesting

because you uh your song sort of

introduced the idea of nostalgia to me.

>> You know,

>> I don't know what that meant. Well, the

when you were singing songs like Jack

and Diane, it's like I was kind of

realizing as I was a very young guy

listening to those great songs that

there's there's going to be a like this

is a weird time in life and there's

going to be a time where you're going to

look back on this and it's probably one

of the best times of your life, but even

though it doesn't feel like it, it felt,

you know, felt confusing and weird. And

I I remember thinking at the time like

my god like is this as good as it gets.

You know, some people look back on this

weird confusing time of adolescence as

the happiest moments of their life. I'm

like, I can't wait to get the [ __ ] out

of this time of my life. And it's like,

you know, you were singing from a

position of like an everyman

position of no, you know, you were you

were singing the star. They were great

[ __ ] songs. They had heart and there

was

it was soul to them, but it was like it

was a lot of sadness, you know, a lot

of, "Oh, yeah, life goes on long after

the thrill of living is gone." And I was

like, "Oh, Jesus Christ. Life's going to

go. This is it.

>> This is it.

>> This is it.

>> This is it." Well, I listen, I struggled

with that

probably like you did or he did. Uh,

you know, there's a point in a man's

life where he feels like there's got to

be more to life than this. I mean, I had

huge hit records and,

you know, very, very, very, very, very

lucky, very lucky.

You know, everything was, you know, was

just I was just lucky.

And I would go home and I would think,

I'm not happy. There's got to be more to

life than this. And then guess what

happened? I got a little bit older and I

found out

there's not.

And I'm good at it.

I'm good at it. So,

you know, we're only on this earth for a

few [ __ ] minutes. quit feeling sorry

for yourself and quit being confused and

accept your responsibilities and and try

to, you know, maintain some humility,

which was a million miles away from me

spitting on people,

>> right,

>> in a bar.

>> What didn't you enjoy about being this

enormous rock star in the early days of

MTV? I mean, you were a rock star when

it became a totally different thing

because it was like this visual thing

that was in everyone's household now. It

wasn't as simple as no, you were on the

Tonight Show and you would sing this

musical segment and people would have to

go see you live to go see you perform.

>> And all you got to see of guys in rock

bands were their album covers.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, you you would go to a record

store and and file through the records

and if you like the way a band looked,

you would buy the record. At least I

would.

>> I would too. Yeah.

>> And and so um

I forgot the question. Well, I was just

saying like what was it what was not

good about that? I mean, what what was

that experience like being this enormous

rockstar that left you feeling like you

wanted more, that you weren't happy? Uh,

I think that uh for me, I think I I

think it when it when that happens, it's

the age you're at, and I think it's a

chemical imbalance in our brain.

And as we grow older, it kind of finds

its way. And like I said, I just woke up

one day and just went, "Hey, this is all

there is. Accept it

and try to show some humility and and

try to be good at it." And it I never

thought about it again.

>> That's interesting. Well, you're a

you're a snap out of it type of guy,

right? You snapped out of drugs and

alcohol. You snapped out of feeling

sorry for yourself. Yeah,

>> that's a good trait to have.

>> Well, I'm very lucky that that I'm

Listen, Joe, you're looking at the

luckiest [ __ ] guy you you've ever

interviewed. I don't give a [ __ ] who

you've interviewed. I'm the luckiest guy

you know. I was born with spinoipida. Do

you know what that is?

>> I don't. That's where you have a hole in

your spine

and

the fluid and all of the your nerve

endings like on me.

>> Look at the back of my neck.

>> Oh wow.

>> You see that scar?

>> Oh, that's crazy. Yeah,

>> that scar is huge.

>> That's 1951.

In 1951, you got that operation.

>> I was born with You're born with spinal

b.

And

>> so what do they do to what what was that

operation exactly?

>> Well, they had to uh Well, here's the

story.

I was a my parents were only 20 years

older than me. So I was born

deformed

and my parents didn't know what the [ __ ]

to do. You know what are we going to do

with this kid? So they just went like

that to my grandmother. Here you take

him. And uh

so I was in the hospital and uh there

were four other kids and there was a

young doctor named Heinberger who was

just a young neurosurgeon. Don't forget

neurosurgery in 1951 was in its

so he just said well we've got to try to

do something with these kids. And uh

so he operated on all of us.

I was the only one that lived.

>> Oh boy.

>> You know the fact that

and he charged my parents a dollar

for the you because it was an

experiment. I was like a guinea pig and

these other poor kids who had the same

thing I did.

Uh they all died within,

you know, 6 months.

>> I remember seeing one girl that made it

till she was 14 and she was in a

wheelchair. I would see her basketball

games and my parents would go, "That's

the other little girl that had the same

operation you did." And then she died.

So my whole life has been full of luck.

I mean, uh, I'm not supposed to be here.

>> What did they do during the operation?

What is the procedure?

>> Well, they have to

cut your head off for starters. You

know, they they had to cut my head and

lay it open

>> to get to my spine. And then they would

push each individual

nerve ending back down into my spine.

drain the fluid off

uh sew it back up and make sure that

everything was working.

And uh they told my parents, you know,

look, uh here he is. He's probably going

to die become get encphilitis and his

head's going to fill up with water. We

we don't anticipate him living much more

than six or seven months.

And I was [ __ ] I think I was in fifth

grade. I didn't even know I'd had the

operation. And some kid in my class

said, "Hey, Mal Camp, what's that big

scar on the back of your neck?" Don't

forget. Now we're talking,

you know, 1957, 58,

60 maybe.

I didn't even know there was a scar back

there, you know. Wow. Wasn't like I was

going and my parents never told me. So I

came home and I asked my old man. I

said, "Dad, what what's with the scar in

the back of my neck?" And he goes, "Oh,

don't worry about it. You had an

operation when you were born." So I did

it. I played football. I ran track. I

fought. You know, I did everything that

every other kid did without a thought of

that. Not until I got older and I had

started having panic disorder that I

thought

I thought maybe that the panning

disorder was from uh

from that operation.

>> How old when you started having panic

disorder?

>> Uh I was just out of college. I couldn't

leave the house. I became what they call

uh what's that called? Agorophobia.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, I had agorophobia for about a

year and a half and then I got a record

deal and I had to leave the house. I

mean, I was married in high school. I

got married in high school and the girl

I was married to was 5 years older than

me, you know.

>> How old were you?

>> 18.

>> 18.

>> Yeah.

>> You had a kid, right? You had a kid real

young.

>> Yeah. She's uh 50some now.

>> Wow.

>> I I have three girls and two boys.

Weren't you a grandfather when you were

in your 30s?

>> Maybe.

>> I think you were. Right.

>> Yeah.

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>> Cuz that oldest daughter of mine got

married when she was like 19.

>> Wow.

>> Not much to do in a small town, man.

>> Yeah.

>> Not much to do.

So

that's the spobifida.

>> But it never bothered you again other

than the panic. Do were you performing

when you were having the panic stuff?

>> Oh man, I have been on stage in front of

like 20,000 people and had a panic

attack.

>> Yeah. It's like, have you ever had one?

>> No.

>> You're lucky

cuz you feel like uh I can't breathe.

>> My chest hurts.

And

>> I've seen it. I've seen people have

them. It's It's horrific. You can't do

anything for them. You're like, "Are you

okay? You think they're having a heart

attack. You think they're dying."

>> Yeah. Well, I've been on stage and I

remember having to plant my feet

>> and just power through, you know, in

front of 20,000 people and it was it was

awful.

>> Did it pass while you were on stage?

>> Uh, I don't know if it did. I just

remember it happening numerous times.

And then guess what happened? I had a

[ __ ] real heart attack on stage at

Jones Beach like 30 years later.

>> Oh Jesus.

>> I know. So,

but you know what that heart attack led

to? I was I just married Elaine

uh Irwin and we had two little boys and

I got to stay home

because I said, "Fuck it. I'm going to

die. I didn't know about heart disease.

I'm going to die. So, I want to spend

the last couple years of my life with my

boys who were little teeny guys, which I

want to tell you a story about them and

you. Uh,

and uh uh so I got to actually kind of

not be in the music business, which

pleased me.

Um,

>> how old were you when you had your heart

attack?

>> 42.

>> Oh, jeez.

And uh so I got to stay home. I stayed

home for three and a half years. Elaine

didn't model and we just

you know we had TV shows we watched

which is unheard of in my life you know

like hey it's Thursday night let's watch

let's watch this you know which is where

you come in. So the boys were little

and they loved your show.

They loved your [ __ ] show.

And I was kind of like, I don't know if

the kids should be watching this, you

know?

>> You talking about Fear Factor?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I don't know if the kids should be

watch. So, I made a deal with them. All

right, you guys. You can watch this

show, but you have to watch 60 Minutes,

too.

So, if you're going to watch this, then

you got to watch 60 Minutes. And they

obliged, which surprised the hell out of

me. But it was like, "Dad, 60 minutes

on, Dad. Fear Factor's on." I know. So,

we would watch it together. I mean, how

lucky is that?

>> That Well, it sounds like it was a

blessing in disguise.

>> Yeah. Well, that's

>> Yeah. It gave you pause.

>> You know what luck is?

>> What?

>> Thinking you're lucky.

>> Thinking you're lucky.

>> Yeah.

>> What you think about yourself all comes

true. I wrote it in a song once. what

you think about yourself will come true.

>> So if you call yourself a dumbass, guess

what? You do it enough and you start

your brain starts believing it.

>> What caused your heart attack at such a

young age?

>> Me being stupid.

Uh I would go in and to get a physical

and they would go, "John, your

cholesterol is off the charts. It's at

400. And I would go, "Am I all right

now?" And they'd go, "Well, yeah, you're

all right now." Good. Cuz I didn't want

to get on medicine.

>> You know, and statin drugs had just

become

just were invented.

Uh, you know, at that time, people

started using statins and I didn't want

to take them. I didn't know what they

were,

but I know all about heart disease now.

>> Did you have plaque? Did you have

arterial plaque?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh it runs in my family.

I have a sister that has or she used to.

I don't think she does anymore, but her

cholesterol was a 500.

Imagine that's like

it's crazy. Cholesterol is a very

controversial subject now because people

are starting to try to sort out what is

the actual cause of heart disease. And

there's a lot of people that don't

believe it is cholesterol. They think

it's arterial plaque. And what is that

stuff called?

Nattokenis.

I I don't know how to pronounce it, but

there's a a supplement like an

over-the-counter supplement that's

supposed to be able to eliminate

arterial plaque in a very profound way

that they're just starting to realize.

>> I don't know. But

>> clogging of it. Listen, what

I was in New York once

with a girl and I went to the doctor

with her. She's an actress

and she was getting a physical and she

wanted me to go so I went with her and

uh

she went to the best doctor in New York

City and I found myself alone with that

doctor and I said so uh

the doctor in Bloomington just put me on

metformin

what's the side effects for metformin

and this guy. Joe was the guy. He went

longevity.

And he said, "If it was up to me, I'd

put the entire United States on

metformin and a statin because the

[ __ ] food we eat is terrible."

>> Yeah.

>> It's processed. It's this and that, you

know, and he just said,

>> you know, the the human body was not

meant to eat this crap.

>> That's a fact.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think the solution is probably

eating food that you're meant to eat.

But metformin is uh one of those drugs

that longevity doctors recommend. I've

never been on it, but uh I know quite a

few people that have. I I think isn't it

a diabetes drug initially?

>> Yeah. And I'm my mom died of diabetes.

So uh I was always borderline and I'm

still borderline and this was

>> she get type one or type two?

>> Well, she started out with two and then

she paid no attention to it. Wouldn't

take her medicine. We'd drive by crispy

cream and she'd go this don't tell your

dad, okay? And she'd get a half a dozen,

you know, crispy creams and eat them.

And it's just like

>> that's where it's at. It's it's the

food. It's a horrible thing that we've

done to this country. You know, there's

I mean, this is the most controversial

thing about RFK Jr., here, I guess, or

one of the most controversial things is

the elimination of all the stuff that's

already eliminated in a lot of European

countries. He's

>> I I had a friend come here from Europe

who had not ever been United States and

got sick.

>> Mhm.

>> Just from eating

>> just eating our food.

>> Yeah.

>> It's crazy. Just our bread. What is that

that supplement?

>> That's not You had it right.

>> How do I say it?

>> Think of how you were saying it.

>> Can you find out what it's supposed to

do? Like what? because there's a recent

study. There it is. Okay. So, nano Yeah,

that's it. Nanokinise supplementation

can significantly reduce the size of

existing arterial plaques and slow the

progression of ar arterioclerosis.

I never say that word. Arthther

athetherio sclerosis

a no atherosclerosis

whatever particularly at higher doses.

uh nattokenase and arterial plaque

reduction. Multiple clinical trials

provide evidence that nattokenise, an

enzyme derived from fermented Japanese

food, NATO, has a positive effect on

arterial sclerosis, hardening and

narrowing of the arteries due to plaque

buildup. Yeah. So folks, go take that

stuff. Highdose supplement shrinks

arterial plaque by 36%. Very interesting

stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's a very common supplement. It's

an easy to get supplement and you know

it comes from fermented food.

>> Mhm. Well, you know, if you if you know

I've watched a lot of things about the

food that we eat

and

>> terrible,

>> terrible.

>> Well, a bunch of monsters decided to

make more money and the way they make

more money is to throw a bunch of

preservatives and [ __ ] and stuff

into food so it keeps their shelf life

as long as possible.

>> Oh, yeah. You you've heard those stories

about uh taking a a a hamburger that you

would buy at a very popular store and

just putting it in a box and leaving it

for five years and you five years later

it's

>> Oh yeah. I my some of my grandkids were

at my house in on DeFuski

and uh they had an ice cream sandwich

and they only ate half of it

and it sat there for three hours and did

not melt.

>> Yeah, I've seen those.

>> Yeah, that's not ice cream.

>> That's not ice cream.

>> I don't know what the [ __ ] in there,

but it's not regular ice cream. The

Burger King or the McDonald's hamburger

thing is nuts because what is the

longest that that guy There's one guy

that's had one on a shelf at his house

for God I want to say it's close to 20

years or something crazy like that. It's

just sitting there and you would think

that he got it 5 hours ago.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And we're supposed to be eating that.

>> Yeah.

>> And for a lot of people that's a big

portion of their diet is fast food which

is just crazy. You're just sucking down

all these chemicals and preservatives.

Cuz if something can not rot, can sit

there and not rot.

>> Quarter pounder that's 30 years old. It

says

>> it's a quarter pound and it's 30 years

old. Wow.

That is insane.

>> Yeah,

>> that's insane.

>> That's craziness.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Our our our food source and and I

don't know about RFK Jr. I, you know, I

don't follow what he says or listen. I

try not to listen to much politics.

>> Good for you.

>> You know why?

>> That's another good way to not have a

heart attack.

>> Well, you know why? Cuz it's all, you

know, I was a hippie.

>> Mhm.

>> And I grew up thinking,

you know, that anybody over 30 was the

enemy,

>> right? And you know, it's kind of like

my I remember when Kennedy was shot, I

asked my dad,

I go, "Do you I was like a kid. I go, do

you really think one guy did it?" And he

just looked at me and went, "What do you

think?" And that was the whole his whole

answer.

>> Wow. Well, he knew it back then. That's

interesting because it took a long It

took until

Dick Gregory brought the Zapruder film

on the Heraldo Rivera show which was I

think it was 12 years after Kennedy's

assassination that people realized that

he probably had gotten shot from the

front.

>> Yeah.

>> Because his head went back into the

left.

>> Yeah. and and and I've seen that and uh

I remember my dad was a young Democrat,

you know, and and uh so he he was

involved a lot with the Democratic party

back then and uh I'd ask him questions

and he never would really give me

answers.

He would just give me looks

It was kind of like and he knew the

look. It was just like,

uh,

what do you think, John?

You really think somebody did that? You,

you know, figure it out for yourself.

>> Yeah. Not much has changed.

And and that's why I don't watch

I don't you know I used to be very

politically minded and and cared about

what politicians said. I don't give a

[ __ ] what they said. I don't trust any

of them. I don't like any of them. Not

that I don't like them.

>> Right. It's just that I don't I I you

know it's just hard to believe anything

that anybody says because everybody's

spinning everything in such a way that

it's just like for their purposes,

you know. So, you know, and

unfortunately we're more aware of it now

than ever before. There's less trust in

politics now than there's ever been. And

then there's more people talking about

politics than there's ever been. There's

more polarization. I mean, I don't know

what it was like when uh you were a kid,

but when I was a kid, there there wasn't

this polarization between people that

were conservative and people that were

liberal. Like, you could hang out and

talk to each other. You didn't they

didn't hate each other. They just

thought the other person was a fool for

having a different opinion than them.

But there wasn't hate like there is

today.

>> Well,

here's the way you got to look at it.

This is that when you used to vote, you

would go inside a place and they would

shut the curtains

>> and you would vote and that was your

[ __ ] business.

>> Yep.

>> It's nobody else's business.

So, like, you know, it's like, you know,

I'm for anybody that's doing good. If

you're doing good and you're not hurting

somebody, go, man.

But I, you know, I I'm not for cheating

and,

you know, how about a little morality

and

>> Yeah.

>> integrity and what you're saying and

doing?

>> No, it would be nice. It would be nice.

>> Well, it's it's never been that way.

>> No, never.

>> It's ne it's never been that way. I

mean, in the in the 60s when I was

a hippie, uh

I mean, people think that this is like

really bad. No, it was really bad when

[ __ ] Russia had had uh missiles in

Cuba and it was really bad when kids

with long hair were getting shot at Kent

State. I mean it was really the

separation of of of adults and and and

kids, you know, there was a change that

was happening and uh of course the

change happened and all my generation

did was get to wear blue jeans to work.

That was about that's about all we

accomplished.

>> Well, the change was because it was the

first generation that realized that the

war that they were being sold was

[ __ ]

>> Yeah. you know, uh, the people that were

involved in World War I and World War

II, they thought they were stopping the

world from an evil dictator taking over

and and just ruining the world. That's

what we we're in World War II, United

States was fighting Hitler. You you

can't get a more evil

person that's leading an army that you

want to fight against than that guy,

right? So, everybody felt like that was

a just war. Came back from that war

victorious. America had national pride.

We did it. We're the good guys. But then

all a sudden we're in Vietnam. Like what

the [ __ ] are we doing in Vietnam? Didn't

make any sense.

>> Back up, Joe. What do you think the

Civil War was fought about?

>> The Civil War?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, slavery was a big one.

>> No.

>> No.

>> Ports.

>> Ports.

>> They fought It was fought over ports.

The port in Savannah, Georgia was the

biggest port in America. And the ports

in Boston, New York were struggling.

And the North said, "Hey,

why don't you guys send some of that our

way? You guys got more than you can

handle." And they said, "Fuck you. No,

no, we're we're not sending you any of

our stuff." And they just kind of went,

"Well, then [ __ ] you. We're going to

come down and take it."

But how are we going to get the American

people to get behind that?

Slaves

will say it's to free the slaves.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. I live I I have a house in the

south and and uh

that's what it was about. It was about

the ports. Slavery was just an excuse

because nobody cared about black people.

>> So,

>> north or south?

>> Wow. So you think that if they had just

spread the wealth a little bit that that

would not have happened and slavery

would have still continued? Don't you

think that I mean there was already a

distaste of slavery because it wasn't

>> it wasn't ubiquitous in the north

>> but in the south

>> but but it was

>> in the north it was

>> yeah I mean Lincoln had slaves

>> right back then but not in not in the

1860s when they were fighting the Civil

War.

He was president.

>> Really? He had slaves when he was

fighting in the war?

>> Yeah.

>> I wasn't aware of that.

>> Yeah. A lot of people in the north, you

know, they weren't at they they hadn't

spun it to be so cruel as the South was

apparently.

>> Well, there was more in the South,

right? Because of plantations and

>> Yeah.

>> So, here it is. Abraham Lincoln never

personally owned slaves. This is

according to Perplexity, which is our uh

AI sponsor, which is always very

accurate. Either before, during his

presidency, according to mainstream

historical scholarship, claims that he

had slaves through inheritance or

marriage come from fringe or highly

disputed sources and are not accepted by

most professional historians.

>> That's me.

Lincoln was born in Kentucky, raised in

Indiana and Illinois, all as a non-slave

owner, working as a laborer, a lawyer,

and a politician. He was a really good

wrestler, too. Um, being related to

slaveholders did not legally make those

enslaved people his property, and the

best documented homes Lincoln himself

maintained in Illinois and Washington

employed free servants, not slaves.

>> Okay, where the

>> I'll call him for a second. Let me stop

for a second. You can call it what you

want.

>> Mhm.

>> Free servants. Call it what you want.

>> Well, they were free and they were

getting paid is like means like you

said, you had a housekeeper.

>> It was still a minstal show no matter

how you got it.

>> Okay. Uh some modern writers and

websites argue Lincoln inherited or

ordered this is where the idea Lincoln

had slaves came from. Uh websites argued

Lincoln inherited or ordered the sale of

slaves via the Todd estate. But these

claims hinge on a small number of

contested documents and are rejected by

most specialists in Lincoln studies.

>> There you go.

>> Well, it's interesting that the

>> the fact that we're even talking about

it.

>> Mhm. Well, it's kind of crazy how recent

it was. That's what's really crazy.

>> Oh, yeah. It wasn't that long ago.

>> Two two people ago. You know, people

live to be 100.

>> Yeah.

>> 1865 is roughly two people ago.

>> Yeah.

>> That's [ __ ] crazy.

>> Well, I know. I bet you when you were in

school, you thought World War II was

ancient history.

>> Oh, yeah. Which is nuts because I I was

in high school in the 80s, right? So,

World War II ended in 45, which is nuts.

Like,

>> yeah, I thought it was ancient history.

I I remember sitting in in history class

in 8th grade going, "What do I need to

know this [ __ ] for?" You know, and I was

born in 51,

>> so it was only like three or four years

and the war had just ended to me. Nuts.

And but to me it was ancient history.

>> Isn't that crazy? Because that

essentially what we're talking about now

is like the 1980s.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, that that to us the 1980s like to

kids today that must be like, "Oh my

god, [ __ ] dinosaur days." Yeah. No

internet. [ __ ] big old tube TVs. It

was a giant box.

>> Yeah.

>> A big one was 14 in.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I I uh I I remember being at home

once and I told my dad I said, "Hey,

Dad, the people down the street have got

like a changer and it's got a cord on

it." And he goes, "I got a changer, too.

Change it to channel 4." I was the

changer.

Yeah. I remember we used to have a

pliers because the thing got stripped,

so you had to change the channel with

the plier. You didn't know what channel

it was until like, oh, it's CBS. All

right, so we're on five. Go like this,

then you're on ABC. Go like that, you're

on NBC.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I remember the day cable came out.

I was like, this is [ __ ] bananas.

Yes.

>> Look at all these channels.

>> Well, I I I remember seeing a home box

office time. It was like, what on earth?

I even remember what movie it was. It

was some

The Miracle Man or something. And I

thought, "What is it? This it's past

11:00 and this movie's just starting.

>> Are you kidding?"

>> Yeah.

>> Do you remember in the old days when the

TV would sign off and the American flag

would wave and it would just play music

and then it would just go

>> and then Well, the Indian would always

show up. The American Indian would

always show up and it had like this

>> Yep. And then it would go to nothing.

They would stop broadcasting at night.

>> Yeah. 11.

>> Yeah.

>> 11.

>> Those are wild times. Cable changed

everything. Home box office changed

everything because when HBO came around,

all of a sudden you got to see standup

comedy uncensored. I remember the first

time I watched Sam Kenisonson on HBO, I

was like, "This is [ __ ] crazy." Yeah.

>> Like I had never seen anything like that

before. Like wild raw comedy.

>> Sam Canson?

>> No, I never met him.

>> I did.

>> What was he like? Wild.

>> Yeah, I would imagine.

>> He was very unpredictable, very uh you

know, he was empty.

>> You know his story, how he became that

way?

>> No.

>> Got hit by a truck when he was a little

kid. He was real normal, like a normal

kid. His brother Bill wrote about it.

His brother Bill wrote a great book

called My Brother Sam. And um he said

that Sam was just a normal kid. got hit

by a truck, got really [ __ ] up, bad

brain injury, and then from then on,

wild and reckless, just like impossible

to control, just a maniac.

>> Well, you could imagine. I mean, you

know, that's

>> I don't know about you, but if you grew

up in the 80s, you know, our parents

used to just tell us, "Go outside."

>> Yeah.

>> Yep.

>> Go outside and we'll see you at dark.

>> Yep. And you know I could go I was I

don't know 10 nine riding my bike all

over Seymour.

>> Yep.

>> Which is where I grew up and just nobody

kept an eye on us. No

>> nobody you know

>> and nobody had any idea of knowing where

you are either. It was just your

responsibility to come home. There was

no way to find you.

>> It was funny. They had to remind us that

uh

remind our parents that you have kids.

There was a thing that said it's 10:00.

Do you know where your children are?

>> Yeah. Cuz a lot of people didn't.

>> Well, they didn't.

>> And people would yell. They would open

up the window and yell their kid's name.

Billy.

>> You just hear it in the neighborhood.

Someone like rolling down their window.

Rolling up their window and just

screaming out the kid's name to tell

them to come home and hoping the kid was

in earshot. I remember uh uh somebody in

my neighborhood I would hear every night

at dark Henry EARL

and I'd hear it and go I better go home.

>> It's time for Henry Earl to go home. I

better get home.

>> What was it like when MTV rolled around?

>> Uh I didn't I mean I liked it. And uh

>> how long had you been performing by

then? Oh, I was in my first band when I

was 11.

>> Wow.

>> Uh, you know, a little garage band with

a bunch of kids playing along with

records and then I was in a band called

The Crepe Soul.

I think about this, Joe. I was 14 years

old playing in bars.

>> Wow.

>> And my parents were cool with it.

Was like, where's John? He's playing

tonight. Playing what? He's He's in the

grape soul. Oh, and it was me and this

black kid named Fred Booker.

And we shared the vocals and we would

do, you know, we would do songs like uh

pull strings and I'll kiss your lips,

I'm your puppet,

I'm your puppet. And we had, you know,

neighbor jackets on. And I was cute back

then. And And so, you know, it was great

for me. I would have done it for free

because I was 14 years old making out

with 18, 19 year old girls.

>> Wow.

>> I know. It was great. Are you kidding

me? And then uh we played at every

fraternity, every sorority,

and I came home with maybe, you know,

over the weekend I might make 60 bucks.

I was the best dressed kid in school.

>> Wow.

>> That Melanchamp kid is just a dressed up

hood. That's all he is.

>> So, did you know back then that you were

going to be a professional musician or

were you doing it for fun? Did you think

it was going to be a career?

>> I thought, here's what I thought. I'm

either going to be a professional

football player, a professional boxer,

or a singer. That was my choices.

>> You boxed?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'll whip your ass right now

at 74.

>> Is that why you were getting in so many

fights?

>> Yeah, I liked it.

>> Wow.

>> I liked it. I I liked the contact.

Didn't like getting whipped every

goddamn night, but you know, it happens.

>> Did you have any any professional boxing

matches?

>> No, but my son, I'm going to brag on my

son

uh was national Golden Gloves champ

twice.

>> Wow. And uh then he played football for

Duke and uh he was you don't want to

mess with Hud.

Don't want to mess with HUD.

>> And so

>> he's 31 now.

>> When did the music thing really start

taking off for you?

Well, I went to college and I got a

degree in uh

broadcasting technology,

which at that time was pretty

and uh

I would they would have dances at

college and bands playing and I would

sit there in the audience and go, I can

do this better than that. I know I can.

And so as soon as I got out of college,

I got into a band called the Mason

Brothers,

which I have I have so many funny

stories. Like I said, I'm so lucky.

I got into a band called the Mason

Brothers, and we played every weekend.

And uh I was a barroom singer, you know.

I never wrote any songs or anything like

that. Uh you want to hear a funny story

about the Mason Brothers? How the Mason

Brothers ended?

>> Yeah.

This is good.

The guy that ran the band, I was just a

singer. And the guy that ran the band

was a guy named Dave. And Dave

talked to the Booker.

And we had a gig on a riverboat up and

down the Ohio River. And it was

fraternity show.

And we had an old Plymouth

and a U-Haul on the back.

And we get there and the guys in the

fraternity Joe are so [ __ ] mad at us.

Dave failed to realize that there was a

time change between Seymour and

Cincinnati, which is on the Ohio River.

So they could all these fraternity guys

are going, "Where the hell have you guys

been? You're an hour late."

So it really pissed me off. I go, "Dave,

godamn it. if you're going to run the

band, you got to like keep track of this

[ __ ] He said, "Oh, don't worry about

it." And as time went on and

uh

so

as and you had to do four sets back

then, you know, four 45 minute sets,

which was plenty of time for Dave to get

drunk

and he would drink and he was the bass

player.

And the fraternity guys already hated

us, you know, because we weren't really

any good anyway. So

Dave's playing and it's going along

really good and he was putting on a show

and he leaned back and man overboard.

He [ __ ] fell off the ship and they

had to stop and fish him out.

>> Oh my god.

>> So I got so [ __ ] mad at him that he

said uh I said, "Dave, I'm going to

quit. this is this is it for me. I'm I'm

done with with this crap. Uh

and then Dave said, "No, John, give us

one more chance." And then the drummer

quit cuz he went to uh he went to

medical school and then the guitar

player was still in high school.

>> Wow.

>> And he was my mom and dad's paper boy.

And uh

so uh Dave said, "John, let me put the

band back together. I'll get some new

guys.

And I'd call him up and I go, "Dave,

how's the band going?" And he'd go, "Oh,

it's going great, man. It's going really

great." I said, "Good." I said, "Who are

these new guys?" He goes, "You'll see

when you get there. Don't worry about

it. I got it covered." I said, "Oh, you

mean like you did with the time change?"

And he goes, "No, no, no. This these

guys are good." So, I show up for this

gig. I haven't even rehearsed with these

guys. not even rehearsed with them. But

it was the same [ __ ] you know, because

it we we we were just a cover band and I

was just a barroom singer. So, you know,

if you want to see taking care of

business, I'm your guy, you know, and uh

taking care of business,

you know, who can't do that. So, anyway,

I show up. Dave has recruited two

sophomores in high school

who couldn't play their instruments at

all.

The drummer was like, it's like

boom boom crack, [ __ ] Boom, boom,

crack. That's all you got to do. And he

was

the whole [ __ ] time. And and and so

the show was about half over. I just

said I looked at Dave and I go, "You're

the lead singer." And I just left.

because it was just too embarrassing.

And then uh I got uh I went I went to

New York

and uh I was afraid,

Joe. I was afraid. I mean, I'm from a

[ __ ] town of 18,000 people. And I'd

been to Chicago once, never been on an

airplane.

And so I flew to New York because I came

into some money. That's another funny

story. I came into some money and I went

there and I was afraid to come out of my

hotel room for the first two days

because New York in the early 70s

was broke and there were prostitutes and

pimps and everything everywhere, you

know, and homeless people. Which reminds

me, you guys got a lot of homeless guys

here. There's a few. It's not as bad as

LA.

>> Well, that isn't You can say that about

anything, Joe.

>> That's true. Yeah. Um, it's a lot better

than it was during the pandemic. During

the pandemic, they allowed them to do

the camping on the street thing. So,

you'd go down like Caesar Chavez and

you'd see like 15, 20 tents where people

were just hanging out and people were

trying to jog and ride their bikes past

them. It was it was pretty bad. But uh

the former former mayor uh cleaned it up

and they have pretty good programs here

to get people into housing.

>> Well, everybody here everybody here must

love uh and I'm not putting Austin down.

I'm just I have you know I was I played

here about three years ago.

Uh but everybody must love graffiti

here.

And that's the thing about graffiti. I I

don't mind if you want to

destroy somebody else's property, but at

least do something original

>> because it all looks the same.

>> You know, it's big letters and outlined

in it's done in black and outlined in

yellow and it's it's the same [ __ ]

[ __ ] you see in New York or Los Angeles.

It's the same, right?

>> If you're gonna if you're going to be a

an artist, be an artist.

>> Well, a lot of these guys are just

tagging. They're just like sister gang

affiliation or whatever it is, I guess.

>> I don't know.

>> Yeah,

>> but it wasn't that way the first time I

came to Austin.

>> No, it's Well, I think all cities have

deteriorated,

but I think Austin's deteriorated quite

a bit less. We found out recently that

Skid Row in LA is 50 blocks 50

>> right now.

>> Right now. 50 blocks.

>> Wow.

>> Of homeless people just living on the

streets.

and like almost impassable. Like if

you've ever been down Skid Row, it's

[ __ ] I went there once accidentally

and this was in the 2000s. We were

filming Fear Factor downtown in LA and I

took a wrong turn and wound up in Skid

Row and I was like I couldn't believe it

was real. Like I it was like a zombie

movie and that's I mean

so you decided on Fear Factor you go

stay in here for three days and you win.

three days and do no coke. Yeah. You

could do three days with no meth and you

win.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It was uh it was sobering. And

then then we looked up the history of uh

Skid Row. And the reason why it's like

that is they would take people out of

Hollywood and Beverly Hills and homeless

people then and they would put them in

Skid Row and force them to stay there.

And they they sort of built it as a

place where they could deposit vagrants

and homeless people.

>> Well, there is a law in this country

called vagrancy.

>> Mhm. Yeah. Not very enforced.

>> Well, well, it's it's it would be Let me

tell you something. If you grew up in

Seymour, Indiana, it was enforcable,

>> right?

>> Because if you stand up town too long,

which is all kids did back then,

>> the cops come up and go, "Hey, you've

been here for three hours. if we've been

timing yet.

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>> Yeah.

>> Move on.

>> You want to keep a nice clean town,

that's how you do it.

>> Yeah.

>> But if you let it go long enough, it

will be like Skid Row. But I mean, and I

think that what we're saying like the

documentary, what was the uh hotel

again? That one

>> Hotel Cecil,

>> the Hotel Cecil, the documentary was

about the Hotel Cecil, which was a

beautiful hotel in downtown LA that's

now a [ __ ] disaster area, but it's in

that whole area. And they just they

couldn't figure out a way to deal with

the homeless problem, but they didn't

want it messing up the beauty and

glamour of Hollywood. So every time they

would find homeless people, they would

just ship them to downtown. Downtown LA

is really the only downtown of any major

city that I've ever been to where nobody

wants to go.

>> Downtown New York is [ __ ] downtown.

Like, holy [ __ ] we're downtown. Look at

all the restaurants. Look at all the

shops.

>> Yeah, but it wasn't that way in the 70s.

I mean, the first time I went there, it

was just like,

>> yeah,

>> you went to Time Square. It was

frightening.

>> The first time I went to uh New York was

to fight. I was fighting in a martial

arts tournament in 1980.

It had to be I guess it was 85 or 86 and

uh it was bad. We went through through

Time Square and I was like oh my god I

couldn't believe people lived like this.

I remember the first time driving

through it I couldn't believe how big it

was. I was like this is crazy. It was so

because Boston where I was from was you

know the big city. I thought it was

nothing compared to New York. I'm like

this is nuts. I couldn't believe how

many streets there were and how many

buildings there were and how tall they

were.

>> But the uh just the seediness of it was

so strange to me, you know, the peep

shows and all the weird people and I was

a kid back then. I was probably, you

know, 18.

>> It was very strange.

>> It was frightening.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like like I was I don't know. I

probably got sidetracked, but the first

time I went there, I I didn't leave my

hotel room. I had a I was at a Holiday

Inn on 57th Street and I just kind of

peeked through the curtains and looked

and I can't go out there. I mean, I I

was, you know, coming off

uh agorophobia

and here I'm in New York because I have

a meeting with some record company

people and you know they like to demo

and

so let's go back to that. So, you were

um your [ __ ] up drunk friend. You quit

him. How do you get back into music

after that?

>> Oh, Dave.

>> Yeah.

>> No, I when I got my first record deal,

the first guy I called was Dave.

>> No, he was he was a great bass player.

He was a great bass player.

>> Did he get his [ __ ] together before

then?

>> No.

>> Nope. Still not?

>> No. No. I got funny stories about Dave

and Max's cast.

>> Is he still around? Yeah, he's a

professor now. He found God and all this

stuff. He's a professor at Vince

University and he teaches

>> He's a professor. Wow. What does he

teach?

>> Music.

>> Oh, wow.

>> And uh

No, he was really a handsome really good

bass player. Really, really, really,

really good. body just, you know,

you know, Dave and we were 20 years old,

22 years old, you know, the [ __ ] did we

know about anything?

>> Yeah.

>> Nothing. Nothing.

>> So, when you left Dave and you left that

band, what what happened next? What was

like the big break for you?

>> I never really had a big break.

>> Well, something must have happened.

It was a slow climb.

>> Yeah,

>> it was a very slow climb. Yeah. I uh

I got a record deal

and of course being me at that age at

22.

Uh I went out to California and I met

with a guy named Mike Maitlin who hated

my new record but said I had great

possibilities.

And I told

I just stood up and I said,

"Motherfucker, you're an old man. What

do you know about rock music?" He must

have been 40.

And of course, I got dropped

immediately. I was on MCA and I got

dropped immediately. But there were a

couple people at MCA who believed in

what I was doing and so they helped me

along. And then I got introduced to uh

Rod Stewart's manager

and I moved to England for two years,

made a record and and you know lived

with the whole band on Chelsea in

Chelsea

and uh punk was just starting and just

starting I mean you know the Clash and

the Sex Pistol I mean these they were

brand new bands.

>> Wow. And there I am with an acoustic

guitar going, I need a lover that won't

drive them like

however that song became number one in

Australia

and uh

so

Australia was ahead of us with

televising rock bands

and they had a whole bunch of rock shows

and I had the number one record album

and single in Australia

and couldn't fill up a bar in

Bloomington.

>> Wow.

>> Couldn't nobody come to see me. So

anyway, I went to Australia

and then uh a girl covered I Need a Love

and she had a big hit with it. I mean,

my mine was like went to like 30 or

something like that, but hers went to

like two of of that song. And that's how

it all started for me. That was the very

first thing.

>> Wow.

>> Was some girl covering one of my songs.

>> And you were living in England.

>> I lived in England for uh

two years

and uh

and they had the National Front there at

the time. I don't know if you know what

that is. The National Front was if

you're not English, get out of our

country.

>> Oh. And a couple my couple guys in my

band got beat up because they heard, you

know, some of the National Front guys

heard uh their accent and it wasn't

English. So it was like dangerous to

even go to the movies. Keep

>> keep your [ __ ] mouth shut your head

down.

>> What year was this around?

>> 70s.

>> 776

7.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The National Front was, you

know, they were like all a bunch of skin

head guys and violent and didn't did not

want any foreigners

in their country at all. And even

Americans, you know, so yeah, you had to

keep your I you know, I learned real

quick to keep your head down, your mouth

shut.

>> Wow.

And so you got out of there because of

that?

>> No, I got out of there because I got mad

at the I know it's hard to believe that

I got mad at somebody, but uh I got mad

at the manager because I never could get

the cockseacker on the phone, you know,

and then I came back to United States

and he had a he had a record deal based

on the number one record in Australia.

And I used to go, "Well, we have a

number one record in Australia." And

they would look at me and go, "Not many

Australians in the United States, John.

So, you know, and then it just kind of

built but see what happened and I don't

mean to sound arrogant,

but I didn't give a [ __ ]

I I got to the point where I was like, I

don't give a [ __ ]

you know, do what the [ __ ] you want

because I I didn't want to be Johnny

Cougar, which is how they made me start.

Whose idea was that to turn you into

John Cougar?

>> It was Johnny to start off with.

>> Johnny Cougar. Tony DeFreeze managed me,

David Bowie,

>> Lou Reed, uh, Martha Hoople. You

remember all these bands?

>> Oh, Lou Reed for sure. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Anyway,

>> David Bowie, obviously. Rod Stewart,

obviously.

>> Yeah.

>> Same guy. Manager.

>> Now, Rod Stewart was different.

>> Different manager.

>> Different man, but he was English, too.

So, uh,

>> it's hard to argue with someone that's

got that kind of talent, right?

>> Well, it's hard to argue, uh, when

you're 22 years old with a 45 year old

man who has had success,

>> right?

>> Yeah. Like I signed away my publishing

and stuff. This is an old story,

but I mean, an old story from everybody

from the Rolling Stones to, you know,

you name it. Prince

>> if you were black, you know, it was like

here's a new car and a and a shiny ring

and some money.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh so I remember the I was in

getting ready getting ready to leave

England and I heard that

Gaff had

uh

had good news for me in America. So

that's the reason I went home. And the

good news was is that he just got a deal

for me for on Mercury Records.

And then uh so I can't I went back to

the United States and uh

we started, you know, started making

records and just kept plowing away. And

the critics hated me, you know, they

[ __ ] hated me because of Johnny

Cougar. And main man came up with that

name, Johnny Cougar. And he his excuse

was, his name was David Jones, and I

called him David Bowie. And look how

well that worked out. And that was and

I'm 22. And I'm going, "But I don't like

this name." And they go, "Well, you

don't have to you don't have to

uh participate. you can go back to

Indiana if you want. It was like, well,

[ __ ] you then. I will. And then I walked

outside and thought for a minute,

thought.

I guess I'm Johnny Cougar.

Wow.

I hated it. And and they compared me to

James Dean and Bruce and you know, so

the critics just hated that. It was

like, you know, he's so American. He's

so American. You know, yeah, I was a

[ __ ] hillbilly.

[ __ ] critics.

>> Yeah,

>> they're always going to be a problem.

>> Yeah, but you know what?

Um, I learned stuff from some of the

critics that were good.

>> Like what?

>> Well, one of my best friends was a guy

named Tim White who was the editor of

Rolling Stone and the editor of

Billboard magazine and he died a few

years ago.

And uh

you want to hear some inside baseball?

>> Sure.

>> Uh Tim and I talked every day and Tim is

as different as me as you.

Tim wore a bow tie,

white bucks,

you know, blue jeans, suit jacket every

day. And he was the editor of Rolling

Stone for a long time.

And then he became editor, Bill Board,

and he called me up and he said,

"I'm going to have to sign a deal with

Sounds Scan."

I said, "So?"

I didn't know what that was.

He goes, "John, you don't understand the

ramifications of signing a deal with

Sounds Scan." I said, "Well, what are

they?" He goes, "You'll be out of

business." I go, "Why do you say that?"

He goes,

"Because now the way the Billboard

charts work, is this getting too inside

baseball?"

>> No, not at all. No.

>> Uh, the way the the charts work is that

if you get played in Indianapolis

and you get played in New York, it

counts as one play. New York counts as

one play. Indianapolis counts as one

play. A play is a play.

When Sounds Scan came in, they changed

it so it's like the number one record of

the week.

So if you got to play in New York, that

was worth five points. If you got to

play in Indianapolis, that was worth a

half a point.

>> Oh.

>> So what does that mean? That means that

people who grew up in St. Lewis and

where rock took place.

All of a sudden, you know, where I what

got played all the time, the points

didn't amount to [ __ ]

>> But what did

urban stations?

Urban stations played what?

Rap.

So,

do you remember when all of a sudden rap

music took over?

>> Mhm.

>> It was because it wasn't because these

guys were so great. And I'm not saying

they were bad. I'm just saying that it

was because of Sounds Scan. And my

friend Tim knew this was going to happen

as soon as I signed this deal with

Sounds Scan. And there was a magazine

called Radio and Records at the time who

was rivaling uh Billboard

and uh

uh if Tim hadn't bought Soundscan,

Radio and Records would have bought them

which would have made them the premier

record company because they were the

most modern. And so Sounds Scan changed

everything. So, I'm sure that you

remember that there was a time when you

knew every song that was number one.

Then all of a sudden, you woke up one

day and you didn't know what the what

what's how does this song become number

one? But the way that it was before

Sounds Scan, each song had to work its

way up the charts.

So, if you had like, you know, let's say

20 plays, I'm just throwing out low

numbers, but if you had 20 plays,

uh, that got added to the 20 plays that

you got the next week. So, now you have

40 plays. So, you might move up from 36

to 31. But Joe Rogan in Boston was

hearing the [ __ ] songs as they move

up. Oh, I heard this new song. You

talked to your friends. and they said,

"Yeah, I heard that song." And then all

of a sudden, the song would build and

build and build and build and build and

build and Michael Jackson would be

number one or whoever.

>> And once

Sounds Scan took over, if you were in a

rock band, the record companies said,

"Well, [ __ ] this. We're not even going

to advertise in Indianapolis anymore."

Oh,

>> the biggest the biggest uh uh

uh numbers

are uh R&B stations and they're playing

rap and that's what we're we're going to

service those people cuz back then you

know there was poliola and all that

stuff going on

>> of course

>> so there was like no money coming into

Indianapolis all of a sudden where there

used to be

>> it was all going to New York, Los

Geggles, San Francisco to all these R&B

stations

and then

uh

what was that thing called when you

could like download records for nothing?

>> Napster.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And then that started and then that

really put us out put all rock guys in

out of business. If you check the

Billboard charts right now, I bet you

you you'd be hardressed to find two rock

bands in the top 100.

>> Rock bands right now just in general are

almost non-existent in terms of like new

bands. It's really weird. There used to

be so many rock bands and rock and roll

is still a very popular form of music

when you listen to the older stuff.

That's why that's why I've decided I

don't mean to plug myself, but I

they have been asking me because I got

tired

of going on tour and being a

cheerleader, which is what I was. Let's

do a rounding hit of Small Town. I was

born, you know, and everybody stand up

and sing and it I was playing to 20,000

people and everybody was drunk and I was

just kind of the cheerleader, you know,

the human good time.

>> Yeah. Giving them the opportunity. I

just thought, you know, I'm here to be a

musician. This is not being a musician.

This is being a [ __ ] clown.

I don't want to be a clown. So, I

started playing in theaters, which

pissed everybody off. I said, and you

know when you come to one of my shows,

and this has been for the last 20 years

I've been doing this. You come to one of

my shows in a theater, it says, "Please

recognize

>> back then." Pull that sucker up close to

your face.

>> What?

>> The microphone. Otherwise, we're barely

here. You're very soft spoken already.

>> How's that?

>> There we go. Um,

>> I am.

>> And I I am soft spoken.

>> Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

>> You know why?

>> Why?

>> Cuz I'm deaf.

>> Are you really? Oh, from all the

singing.

>> Yeah. All the music. Oh, every rock star

is deaf. Yeah,

>> I'm deaf.

>> No one knew [ __ ] about hearing

protection back then.

>> No, I'm deaf. I can't hear.

>> All my friends in bands

>> and all my friends that are hunters.

Deaf.

>> Can't hear.

>> Yeah. Guns and loud music.

>> Yeah. Uh my kids would love it because

they could walk up and say [ __ ] behind

my back.

>> Like I heard that.

I got three girls and two boys. And what

how many kids you got?

>> Uh three. Three girls.

>> Uh girls or

at about 12 you lose them

and then about 21 they come back.

>> I haven't lost them.

>> You haven't?

>> Fortunately. No. No. I'm real close.

>> Yeah. 15 17 or 28.

>> I kind of lost mine. you know, it's like

and but now it's kind of like but I do

have a daughter that's really sick.

>> It's not falcon vine.

>> Oh, that sucks. I'm sorry to hear that.

>> She's got um

she's got cancer in the brain.

>> Oh Jesus.

>> And uh she's suffering right now.

But that kid used to call me up and I'd