I lived there for 8 years with a Dutch

girl, but I cannot remember one day

because it was all so harmonious and

nice and cool, polite and here you can

have the biggest fights and after that

the best sex. There is some amplitude in

your in your life that makes you feel

more alive.

>> Meet waterhilling born in the

Netherlands in the late '9s. He was the

head of Univer's Balkcon branch and

later held senior roles at several

multinational companies in Serbia. Today

he is the president of the Dutch Serban

Business Association, married to a

Serbian wife and does marathon swims in

the Saba. He shared how a trip to

Helander literally saved his life. How

Drafka Church almost became his kum and

why he considers Serbia a rich country.

Imo I went to Hillander. Helander is a

monastery on Atos and we went with a

delegation of Serbian businessmen. We

came in the monastery 2 hours service

you know religious standing

>> and no joking at all during these you

know not even during the meals when we

were talking then some priest would come

by and hit on the table quiet you're

very religious all day but then in the

evening you sleep in some kind of not

barracks but but you know you have these

bunk beds where where two two

>> I was with a was a friend and and then

next to us were two some kind of

bodybuilders uh

with one had a huge you know Orthodox

cross the tooth over his whole back. Not

people you regularly meet but when

you're there together you start talking

about some very non-religious subjects

you know after the whole day being so

you need to have some balance in your

life. So we had all the sex, drugs, rock

and roll, you know, cars, motorbikes,

and after a week with this week, you get

kind of you get bonded. You know, you're

in the same situation, but not in a way

that, you know, I would never exchange

numbers or meet up again. But you know,

fast forwards 10 10 years, some

beautiful girl asked me to go out to a

certain club. I was single, so yeah, why

not? Pretty soon when we came into that

club, I already felt that that, you

know, something is fishy that she wanted

to show up with with me, some foreigner,

you know, just to make some future or

ex-boyfriend jealous or there was one

guy that immediately started aggressive

to us. We were in some kind of a how do

you call that? Sare and I saw he had a

gun. So I started already to say, "Okay,

one drink and we leave because this is

not going anywhere." But it was getting

really, you know, nasty. And I saw that

he was not alone but with some other,

you know, bad guys. And uh I felt so

uncomfortable. I told the girl, "Please

call security because, you know, we need

to get out of here and we can't leave.

They're not going to let us leave." So u

and you know, it got so harid in the

end. I asked the waiter, "Please call

because she didn't do it." Then two guys

come in from security and that is an

awkward moment because I'm not a regular

at the club. These guys look like they

were. So they'll choose their side not

not my side. So you know if anybody and

then the guys come say hey these guys

from the monastery.

>> Wow.

>> Incredible security.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So

>> wow. So in that sense you could say that

you know visiting London saved my life

that

>> we have kind of compatible minds the

Dutch and the Serbs we are able to make

fun about our own situation. When I

lived in Greece the Greeks take

themselves very serious. Yeah. So if you

make jokes about them which we joke

about everybody we deal with and and

about ourselves occasionally but in

Greece that's unacceptable. you hear

people, you know, laugh about it and

and, you know, do better and return the

favor, you know. So, we're compatible in

that sense and also in a very European

way of of of of doing business. Other EU

member countries are sometimes less in

that direction. We have this this thing

of full transparency. fool is is you

know uh disputable but but you know the

principle is that if you and I are in in

in a are making a business deal it's my

responsibility

that it's interesting for you because

only that way we can make a long-term

deal something that works you know and

that it's interesting for me of course

but you know that is kind of you know

the beginning of everything serves have

that thing of finding a way to make it

interesting for both parties yes there

are differences but the basics

are European

>> and what is the biggest difference do

you see in war work culture?

>> Well, what we're doing now, you know,

drinking coffee and and out of the

office, that is completely different in

in Holland. Everything is uh is

organized, planned. You lose the

flexibility and I think my quality of

life here is I think better than in

Holland. It's also because you learn

>> over the years what what what is really

valuable for you. I have an old mother

uh that I I like to visit uh as much as

I can, but I can't always plan my visits

to uh to Holland weeks ahead. If I have

some free time, I want to call friends.

Well, I spend my time with my mother. I

have some hours left and say, "Let's

call a friend to uh so you call your

friend. If you get him on the line

already, that is a bonus." And I get

answers like, "Ah, you know, today is

Tuesday and on Tuesday I go to the gym."

That is, you know, kind of insulting. I

say, "Dude, I skip the gym when I'm not

here every day." But, you know, you have

to feel that you have to start

justifying how important you are to him.

here in Serbia. If I want to see anyone,

no matter if that's a big, you know,

captain of industry, owner of a big

company or or or I don't know, God

himself, after 10 minutes, we were

sitting somewhere drinking coffee. And

there's a downside to that as well, of

course. I mean, the fact that you

sometimes have to wait for somebody for

a meeting.

>> That's because he met Walter on on the

way and wanted to go for a coffee. But

in principle that's I think uh the main

thing a kind of a flexibility and we

have to be careful here

>> that we don't lose that as well.

>> Do you think Serbia loses is losing it?

>> I think with introduction of more kind

of you know professionalized meeting

planners and things like that the

flexibility goes down the drain. The

thing that we value most so you have to

be careful to to to find a balance. The

beauty for me in in in Serbia was always

that you can and have a quality life in

terms of of you know going out, eating

and do business at the kind of a level

of professionality that is satisfying

for for yourself. In

professionalization, you can also go too

far that everything becomes you're not a

machine. We need to feel happy. We need

to feel motivated in what we're doing.

And you need to do the things you do

with some love, not just produce,

produce. And it's it's not all in

numbers. If you do business in Holland

or in any stable market, a lot of

factors you basically ignore. You really

as a kind of a top sporter, you know,

changes his tolerances for pain in in

business. You you change your tolerances

for all these things that you say, okay,

you have to be more alert on on more

much more factors to to to play it good.

So in that sense, it was interesting. We

had I say in the five years of uni liver

I had more history happening economic

and also political than than than in 50

years in Holland. We had you know

hyperinflation we had change of

government kind of you know revolution

style change we had you know the prime

minister killed

>> we had bombing NATO bombing 99

>> you were here.

>> Yeah. Well that was another story. I got

a call from the the president of

Unilver. Unilver at the time had

300,000. So he doesn't call everybody

every day. You know, it's trouble when

he calls. So you start, you know,

spraying your numbers and your your uh

your results and yeah, I know all that,

but uh I hear from your bosses that

you're not planning to close the office,

correct? Because you know, after three

times, I finally got it right. Now, as

you can see, we're going fine. He said,

"Well, look, we have information that

things are going uh to happen. We can't

take the responsibility for you to be in

the country. This is the deal or you

leave the country or you leave uni

liver." And then the deal was to to be

responsible for Serbia, but from

Croatia. So, I got responsibility for

Croatia as well, which was also a bigger

market at the time. And um you know, big

corporation. So, you know, bigger car,

bigger house, bigger bigger salary. So

you know kind of an offer you can't

refuse and I moved there

20th of March and 24th of March the

bombing started and I had to travel a

lot back to Belgrade of course you kind

of felt embarrassed at the border how

friendly they were you know you come

with your passport just NATO passport so

you expect

>> yes

>> you know some some some comments at

least or but nothing you know completely

professional sorry you know excuses that

uh we you have to wait a bit because we

have to check with Belgrade and it can

take 20 minutes. Go have a coffee there

and uh I'll bring your passport when

we're finished.

>> Things like that. And then you come to

to cuz you were watching I don't know

what we were watching CNN then in in

Croatia. You see bombing and everything,

you know, terrible. The the world is

burning. But then you come back in

Belgrade and all your friends are in the

coffee places. So the picture you get

from the media

is always a bit

>> distorted. Yeah. No, no, because coming

from Holland, you have, you know, an

idea about the Serbs there. You know,

Serbia is war. And then you come here

and you see the most polite people.

People greet you on the street. You have

good conversation. They love foreigners.

They don't hate foreigners. And also,

it's a very good filter because I for

work, I mean, I've been in many they

sent me to to to many beautiful places

so far. I was in Indonesia, New Zealand,

Australia. And of course your friends

visit you but it's always a bit

corrupted in the sense that you know are

they visiting me or are they visiting

the country that I happen to be in.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

>> At that time definitely not. You know

Serbia was not regarded as a touristic

place. So it's kind of a nice filter

that you say somebody visited me in

Serbia is coming for me.

>> But having said that everybody that came

that time came back later on as well. So

they love Serbia.

>> Serbia. Can you remember what was the

biggest shock for you back in '90s when

you just came to survey?

>> Maybe the traffic that was uh you know

the complete uh chaos

>> chaos. But then after that when I moved

to Nigeria then I

>> was more chaos. Well, no. I' I've seen

chaos. You know, in the Far East, cities

can also be chaotic, but uh the

aggression, but you you adapt, you know,

you uh my my friends when they first

came to Serbia and they saw how I drive,

they say, "Dude, you mean you can never

come back to Holland. You'll lose your

driving license in the in the first 5

km." that forever that is the other

things the greyness and the air

pollution and uh that that was and

that's still

uh an issue.

>> This is because Holland is very colorful

country so you in Amsterdam you have a

lot of colors.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Amsterdam became a bit

of a Disneyland but Poland can be highly

depressive as well. I mean we have no

mountains. So you have many times that

you're you're you know if there are some

clouds that they stay there for 3 weeks.

a low hanging clouds that you for 3

weeks you don't see a hole in the sky

that is uh that gets to you in a way

here you will always have some mountain

that that somehow compact and then there

will be some rain and some bad weather

it's a bit like the minds of the people

as well my ex-wife was Greek my wife now

is Serbian and I lived with a Dutch girl

as well it's a completely different

mentality I lived for 8 years with a

Dutch girl but I cannot remember one day

because it was also harmonious and nice

and cool, polite and everything. Then

here, you know, Balkcon, you know, you

know what I mean? You you you

really uh you can have the biggest

fights and after that the best sex and

then then you know that there is some

amplitude in your in your life that

makes you feel more alive. You you you

feel that you live. That's also how I

met my uh my my wife through a role in a

movie in fact.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Yeah, she's a producer. Well, now,

yeah, now I get get more and more uh all

minor roles, but some some uh

appearances more than than a role.

>> And most of the time I'm some Nazi or

some some German. So,

>> it's strange because I consider myself a

very nice person, but I always get these

bad characters that

>> How did you get your first role? Well,

that's how I met my wife in fact that

they needed somebody with a well at the

end of the day with a Dutch passport.

They were looking for some director of a

foreign company and then uh a girl that

uh worked with my wife remembered me,

called me to say, you know, do you still

have that uh big car? And

that's how we met. And then well when we

found out that it was uh serious we we

didn't waste time. 2 years later we had

two daughters

and well then you start thinking yeah I

mean who are you fooling that you're not

married now? So so then we got married

afterwards. It was quite the procedure

in fact to get married as a Dutchman to

a Serbian girl. I think on purpose they

complicated that procedure be because of

uh you know to avoid fake marriages and

and things like that. So not only on on

the Serbian side but also the procedure

is quite complicated at the Dutch side

as well. And you always have that moment

that

there's one document missing and my

document had to come from Greece and at

the time I was flying up and down a lot.

So I knew all the people that were

regulars on the plane and I asked yacht

air Serbia representative is there any

of my guys my you know club on that uh

on the plane today that they can bring

that paper for me. Do you know Draco

Chich? I know Draco Chol the singer but

this is definitely not not him. Yeah,

that one. I'll give it to Zrafco and you

guys uh here's his number. You guys

communicate uh

>> to uh pick it up because he's not coming

out of the regular gate but you know to

avoid and then we met in a restaurant at

the airport. We spent 5 hours just you

know talking drink because you know how

how it goes when you're cholich you

don't order basically in a in a

restaurant. You're you're sitting

>> and then drinks are arriving because

everybody sees

So, so we had a we had a tough job, you

know, digging through all these beers

and then uh

>> but it was it was beautiful, very nice

person, very warm and and and open. It

shows, you know, the people have, you

know, true interest and no vanity in

terms of you I'm the big star and where

you very nice

>> and he took your document and

>> he took my document, brought it to me

and uh no, we got married in the end.

>> Have you asked him to be your crew? No,

no, I haven't. No, that would be the

best. Now you give me ideas.

>> Shortly after I met my wife, my

motorbike got stolen. I had a beautiful

motorbike. I parked it under the cameras

to be sure, you know, that it was safe.

Everybody told me there's no chance, you

know, that uh that you will ever find

that back. But the police did their job,

you know, miraculously. Okay, you have

to kind of find the context and make

clear that that you know make you make

your case that it's very important that

you get that motor bike back. And uh

that was even on TV that case that they

found it after 2 months. But I still

have the bike.

>> The same bike

>> and you you can't you couldn't imagine

it in ' 90s or beginning to 2000.

>> You have to somehow give it to make sure

that it gets priority by shouting big

names and that is the

>> but you know systems are in place.

That's what I want to say. I think the

police can pretty much do everything

once they see it as a priority. How did

you earn the trust of Serbs? Is there

any life hacks?

>> Well, no. One thing is is is to show

true interest. Learn the language. The

serves at the moment that that you show

the willingness to speak their language,

you will get all the support.

Foreign

speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

Could

you please pass me the sugar?

>> Uhhuh.

>> Deter. It's the way they use it. And of

course they all know me. You can say

Well, the adobium set

for me it sounds a bit harsh uh every

time I you know I cannot get used to

that even if you're direct you you stay

polite when I was in IMLAC I signed the

sponsor contract with partisan

we had this thing that's called

collleium that is um a kind of a meeting

you have as all the managers and dairy

business is a you know early hours

business everything you sold until 7:00.

What is not in the supermarket at 7:00

is not sold that day. So, it's it it's

very early. It's we had this uh and I'm

not an early morning person, but I was

always there in time. Then I signed with

uh Partisan 2 years uh church sponsor.

That day after I uh signed with

Partisan, I came in and nobody greeted

me. Good morning everybody. Not a word.

So I saying to myself, "Good morning,

Mr. Vaning.

Good morning boys." And still nothing.

They were old guys, but very nice guys.

Director of productions at him.

You signed with the

Partisan.

Yes, I did two years. And but don't you

know the team like is already 50 years?

I said, "Well, I didn't know, but I know

that it's part now, so uh let's get on

with it." But no, they they brought that

to the highest level of the owners. Uh

that I in the end I had to sponsor the

same amount that I gave to Partiton to

Sylvester basketball

club to uh to level that out.

shirt sponsor of of a football club is a

is a good investment if you see at the

exposure every day in the newspaper we

can see now there will be some partisan

shirt in the newspaper whether there's a

match or not there will always be

something about that

>> I'm thinking that uh many economies many

countries have like a basis for the

economy one basis for example for Russia

it's oil for China it's manufacturing

what do you think for Serbia would be

such a basis for economy.

>> No, Serbia is a rich country in terms of

minerals, in terms of agriculture if

they use that in the right way. Whatever

you have, it becomes a question, can you

make use of it in a sustainable way and

then do something good for the country

in a broader perspective than than just

a short-term gain.

>> So, agriculture could be such thing.

>> Agriculture is is big and there's a huge

potential. Well, I see that also in you

know Dutch companies although the the

big companies we have here are are for

instance in retail deault deault is the

owner of Delaza is a Dutch company. So

all the the Moxy and Shop and Go are

Dutch company but you know Moxy is a and

they're I think they're the biggest

private employer at the moment that they

more than 15,000 employees. So it's

really a you know big player and it's

funny to see then that that with you

know these margin caps I don't know if

you follow that that they basically have

then a big investor you have a big

investor that that does play it

completely by the book uh pays all the

taxes employs so many people uh and then

you make their life difficult. It's not

very inviting for for for yeah because

my job as a president of this business

association is to to motivate investors

to come to Serbia.

>> How do you pitch Serbia for foreigner

investors?

>> A lot of opportunities not only in what

traditional was of course lower labor

cost. I don't know how sustainable that

is in itself. You want to to to raise

the standard of the people working here

as well. You cannot mention lower labor

cost and and and more foreign direct

investment at the same time. If you

don't offer something else, we should

move away from that and then stress the

other opportunity like like you know a

highly skilled labor force for instance

that you know you have people with very

good education in engineering,

electroengineering but also you know in

other other fields. motivated people

that are, you know, eager to do new

things, eager to travel because at the

end of the day, finding the right people

is is is key to any business.

>> There is a word for companies which

costs $1 billion they called unicorn

companies.

>> Yeah.

>> What do you think uh should happen in

Serbia that Serbia could grow a unicorn

company?

>> Oh, it has has the possibility already.

I mean there's uh look that that sounds

like you know it and things like that.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> And it Serbia has

fantastic possibilities. First of all

education at that level is is fantastic.

Also more and more companies see that.

So there will be huge possibilities. I

mean from Dutch side we have a lot of IT

investments. Companies like Levi 9 but

also smaller ones. Enigma 3, BIT. there

are, you know, there's some uh very

successful companies that are operating

and especially between Holland and and

and and Serbia that but I don't know if

you know about companies like nothing to

do with with with with Holland but

Soulflare for instance that you they

have this it's basically a Solana wallet

crypto wallet.

>> Interesting.

>> They had and they're from Novisad.

They're they're a relatively small

company, but at times they have like the

funds that they have on the on their

wallets is between 80 billion 120

billion, but that's one and a half time

the Serbian GDP.

>> Yes.

>> And it's bigger than the country. So

yeah, possibilities are there. Uh but

that's okay. That's not the company

doesn't own that money, but they handle

that. They made this possibility now

that you that you can take with your

credit card, you can take your crypto

into cash. There's no reason why Serbia

couldn't have a unicorn company.

>> From my point of view, as a content

creator, Serbia is very small country.

It's like six million people, 6 8

million people. I perceive Serbia rather

than uh as a very good base for doing

international business.

>> In a lot of businesses, the the actual

geographic location becomes less

important. still this openness to to to

all the other markets is is important

but especially because of that I think

there's work to be done in in you know

getting these row of trucks finished at

the border I don't know if you're aware

of of you know we have problems with

with truck drivers that that spend 3

days at the border these three days add

up so at a certain moment they have more

than 30 days you have on a on a

temporary residence permit you limit

their possibility to work especially in

the electronic age you would say that

that you know that that must be possible

to solve that okay work has been done on

that but it's going slow too slow I mean

every day lost at the border for a truck

driver is a waste and that's also

determines what kind of products you can

even bring to EU

>> why do you believe in survey

>> privately I I really think that my

quality of life here is is is better uh

than what I would get in Holland or uh

in another country, but I miss the sea.

Here, I hardly swim. I miss the sea.

There's one thing if I miss one thing in

uh in Serbia, it's the sea. The river

cannot replace that. I I did one race.

I'm a marathon swimmer. Did I tell you

that or not? When I lived in Greece, we

had these beautiful races, you know,

between islands and u I swam the Toronto

Golf two times. It's a 26 km race. I

realized when I moved to Belgrade that

in fact my whole life I was next to the

sea. When I look at the sea and you

breathe the sea you see you know the big

nothing

then you feel that and you know that all

the trouble and all the work and the

stress is on one side and the rest is

there. It's clear

>> and you swim only in open water. Yeah.

You don't swim. Oh, I you know the

trainings are also in Greece. I was

living and next to the sea and next to

the swimming pool

heaven the morning trainings are are

famous that you go you know nobody in

his right mind wants to to go to a

training in the morning. So you need

that to do that on the routine. So you

go, you're still sleeping, you get out

of your bed, you have your stuff ready

the night before and then you dive into

the water and then you realize, oh, you

know, and then you wake up awake and

then you do your training. You really

you start your day completely different.

Here I I did some race. I did 19 km in

the Sava. It's beautiful because you you

u the Sava has some 3 km an hour its own

speed of course the stream of the SA.

And most of the race you're you're

swimming and you see the the the you

know that you're moving because you know

you have this 3 km per hour extra and

then the last bit you come around an

island and you have to swim back to the

to the bridge but you go upstream then

and that is I think it's a kilometer or

so or you think okay I'll start my

sprint to to to the end to to uh give

everything I have to them and then 10

minutes in my sprint I look to the side

and I'm pretty pretty much where I

started.

>> How do you manage to endure such long

races?

>> Your first kilometer all the pain you

get in in marathon swimming is in the

first kilometer kilometer and a half cuz

you have this buildup of acidity in your

muscle and things like that. But that

comes to a certain level

>> where it's constant and once you find

out that that is it, it basically goes

because you ignore it and then it it it

disappears.

You need to find the rhythm

>> of your arms and of your So you listen

to the water, you listen to your arms

and then the rhythm is stronger than

everything. So I the last race that I

did, I fell asleep.

>> Really?

>> I fell asleep for more than an hour,

maybe 2 hours. The thing is you have

that boat next to you and the boat

basically produces two waves. One at the

front of the boat, one of the heck of

the boat, one of the the the end of the

boat. If you come too close to the boat,

it will suck you in the propeller.

That's not good. We don't want that. So,

and if you go too far, it pushes you

away. And I'm swimming with my if I go

in front with my fingers open

so that you feel that kind of a hill

that you that you can hang on. Plus,

then you have your rhythm. Then you can

close your eyes. You know where the boat

is. You know your position next to the

boat. And because you don't, you know,

your brain takes a lot of energy. So if

you can shut that down, you save that

energy for your muscle. At one time I

nearly died. You're very very tired. You

hardly have any energy. So you go

completely on autopilot, you know, no

brains, no just the rhythm that that

that keeps you going. And then I got a

wave of of uh you know, I got made some

mistake in breathing or some odd wave

and I I swallowed the water. And then I

felt I

was going down. Totally opposite of what

I always thought about drowning. That's

so scary and think it's only beautiful.

You know, you become one with nature and

you completely relax and it's all it's

all hallelujah.

>> How did you manage to get out of this

situation

>> to out of that situation? You you get

you think all of a sudden you get this

flesh. Yeah, but I have kids. I have

this. You need to fight back. You know,

you need to really and then you put

everything together. You know, if I

don't because you in all the beauty, you

realize that there's no way back. It's

very tempting to go there because it's

so beautiful. It's a no. I told my

parents at the time that if I ever go

like that, you know, don't worry because

it's beautiful.

>> Was there any moment uh while you have

been living here in Serbia that you

regretted this decision to stay in

Serbia?

>> Yes, I mean the love for the country

like like you know it goes in waves. I

mean you you sometimes I adore

everything here and then it can be a

month later that I hate everything about

here

that so you have to you know that also

is a long-term process the love for such

a country at times it it is

disappointing to see how how slow change

goes but said you trust the process you

need to it's it's like marathon swimming

you you you just uh need to keep the the

finish line uh

in your mind and and then stay on direct

direction is very important. Stay true

to your values and then know that you're

doing the right thing and then

eventually that will pay off.

>> Can you call Serbia your home now?

>> I do. Yeah, I uh I definitely do. I uh

well found the love of my life here. I'm

very happy uh with my children, with

their school, with the whole with my

neighborhood. I feel at home, home at

home. These things are important. You

just inter human contact. You know, I

know almost everybody here in the in the

cafe because we come here every day and

in the summer it's even more because

we're sitting outside. So, uh these are

my neighbors. You know, we we come here

to, you know, just share very day-to-day

stuff, but it gives you a feeling of

belonging to to, you know, to yeah, you

have a place to come home to. That is

something that in the west maybe they

underestimate the importance of that.

think that we are a bit closer to the

truth here in terms of the importance of

you know interhuman relations that you

have to be caring for each other, share

the love and give that a higher priority

than just the financial gain and and and

all the the hard factors in life. I

think the Serbs have that better than we

do.