[music]

Welcome to First Time Founders. I'm Ed

Elson. 12 years ago, my next guest was a

Wall Street trader with a problem.

[music] And it had nothing to do with

markets. His problem was that his coat

either kept him warm and looked

terrible, or they [music] looked nice,

but they left him freezing. So he left

finance behind to create coats that

deliver style and performance in the

cold. Fast forward to today [music]

and those coats have become a staple in

the business world. They are known as

the coat to wear to Daros. They're sold

in high-end retailers [music] like Sachs

and Bloomingdales and you might even

recognize them from Succession, but they

were one of the few brands to get a name

drop on the show. Over time, [music]

these coats have gone into something of

a cult following in the quiet luxury

world, and they're becoming big in the

world of finance. This is my

conversation with Michael [music]

Burkowitz, founder and CEO of Norwegian

Wool. Uh, Michael Burkowitz, thank you

for joining me on First Time Founders.

It's a pleasure. So, uh, I want to go

back to the beginning of Norwegian Wool

starting this company. You were working

on Wall Street. Is that right?

>> That's right.

>> Yeah. Tell us the story of how it all

began.

>> Sure. So, um, basically I was a

commodities trader and I was actually

one of the youngest guys in the firm.

So, I was probably extra concerned about

how I was perceived. You know, I they I

had to we'll say I I don't know, pull

some strings, but uh I had to work extra

hard to get into that position. And, you

know, I really always wanted to do a

good job. And if I were to be walking

into a room and making a presentation

for something, I knew I was going to be

scrutinized extra closely.

>> Yeah.

>> And the way I dressed was a was a part

of that. I I I've discussed this uh a

bunch of times that you know a lot of

who you are you're not in control of.

Your height, certain aspects of how you

look, but your clothing you are in

control of. And I always felt that I

should dress in a way that would make

people respect me and and take what I

say seriously. And what happened was I

would come in from outside of the city

into Midtown Manhattan and uh my nice

coats weren't warm and my warm coats

weren't nice. So that that was the

problem that I had that I always felt

that uh you know in the in the workforce

I I wasn't putting on my best by the way

I was dressed when it came to fall and

winter. I was like coming to meetings

and trying to quickly hide my coat

behind my back so people wouldn't see me

or check it in before we would get into

a restaurant or something like that. And

uh so the the cogs start to turn. Maybe

maybe you know I need to find something.

That was where it first started. I just

wanted to find something that looked

nice um that I felt uh I wasn't a suit

and tie guy, but I wanted to look

presentable, not something that was big

and puffy and with branding you could

see from the moon. I wanted something

that looked uh presentable and also

would keep me warm and dry. And that's

how the idea started.

>> So, you're you're working on Wall

Street. How old are you at this point?

>> Oo, early 20s. Early early to mid20s

already. Yeah.

>> Wall Street where I assume you're

getting paid a lot of money and you're

kind of rubbing elbows with the monsters

of the universe and then you decide,

okay, I'm going to go start a coat

company,

>> right? So, it doesn't all happen

overnight. Um, first that struggle

looking and not finding something that

kept on getting higher and higher. And

then actually um a close friend of mine

who we used to commute in a lot

together. His mother-in-law is a very

well-known fashion designer who actually

subsequently has become a real mentor of

mine and he would know about brands I

never heard of. He you know his mom was

selling to Sachs and to Neman's and a

lot of the great places and he would

tell me about things that I never heard

of.

>> And um I asked him uh you know I'm

looking for a coat that's that's nice

that I'm proud to be wearing but also

keep me warm and dry. And he leaned in

and he put his hand on me. goes, "Dude,

when you find one, get one for me, too."

[laughter] So, that started to get me

thinking. This is a guy who knows more

than I do about the various different

brands. And there was no brand that came

to mind, you know, like for so many

other performance plus fashion needs.

Anything from a a Lululemon to an Under

Arour through, you know, um a Villa

Quinn for for bathing suits. Like, who

who's the guy who's taking care of

business professionals who need like

nice looking good quality outerwear? And

that's when I start to realize, okay, if

there's no brand that's really cornering

the space, there might be an item here

and there that's a step in the right

direction, but there's no brand that

this guy and other people would answer

is go get yourself one of these. Yes.

>> That's when I realized, okay, maybe it's

not about a product here, but there's be

a whole brand that could brand itself

around, you know, luxury, performance,

wool, and cashmere.

>> When I think about what are the the

staples of outerear, especially in New

York, and especially in business, it's

like the barber jacket. I mean, everyone

talks about the Barber jacket. Uh, but

as you say, that's your fall jacket. Uh,

that's not really heavy enough. And then

I guess the other jacket that absolutely

just took over, but I feel like is kind

of going out of fashion is the Canada

Goose, which as you say, you got the big

giant logo on the arm. I remember uh

several years ago when that was like the

ultimate flex if you had the Canada

Goose badge. I assume it's not really

the case anymore, but uh you realize

this and you decide to quit your job or

do you start working on this on the side

while you're working in your job? How do

you actually exit out of commodities

trading and get into this?

>> I did not quit my job right away just

off an idea. I um I first tested it out.

I made some samples. Yeah. And I

actually took my nights and weekends uh

in my very busy schedule to go around to

specialty shops across the northeast

Carter, so Boston down to DC and

literally played the role of a traveling

salesperson with a suitcase with a

couple of samples and showed these

stores. And these were stores that were

selling Barber, let's say, on the on the

lower end up through um Zenya, Brunell,

Coochinelli on the on the higher end,

and showed them the idea. And the nicest

thing was I never really had to explain

what we were trying to accomplish. They

all right away nodded their head when I

said the problem and they're like,

"Yeah, we get it." You know, it's it's

it's that Canada goose warmth in

something that looks much more uh

professional and clean and small and

fitted. And so when they started buying

units and they started selling them

without me there, they put it on their

floors. They placed orders and they put

on their floors. And whether we were on

the higher price point or right smack in

the middle or even on the lower end,

they um they sold really well. and was

when they started to place orders for

the next fall winter. Uh, that's when I

that's when I quit my job and lined up

some investment.

>> What is it like actually starting a

business where you're making you're

making things, you're making these

coats, you're creating these materials

like you don't have any experience in

fashion, I assume at this point, how do

you how did you figure that out?

>> That was probably one of the hardest

things. And uh I think for any

entrepreneur who's trying to get in the

world of making stuff when you come in

as an outsider, the factories that you

would want to work with don't want to

work with you. And the ones that are

hungry to work with you, there's

probably a red flag there like, you

know, so how do you get in? Um

>> what would those red flags be? If a

factory says, "Oh yeah, we really want

to work with you." What's what is a

potential?

>> Why are they so hungry for your

business? You're a no-name. They should

be super busy and turning you away. It's

like you want to go to the the country

club that doesn't let you in. Type of

thing, you know? You want to get into

the best quality especially in our world

where it's all about quality. Yes. And

we were making things in Italy and Italy

is a very closed off place for for new

manufacturing and uh a lot of the

business has been there for generations

after generations after generation. So

they're not as excited about a new guy

coming in with an idea. They want

continuity. So in this case it was

really all about convincing the people

we wanted to get with the best quality

places both on the raw materials and the

actual manufacturing that we are there

for real and you know our relationships

grew as we started ordering more and

paying for everything on time and going

through all the trials and tribulations

of life and co's and all this you know

fast forwarding years later but it took

time to really develop that but we had

to really

strategically think about how to

penetrate because there might have been

an item that we wanted. We knew that

existed, but it's hard to just get it.

It's like you can't just place an order

on Amazon for performance cashmere. You

know, you have to be able to figure out

how to get there. And in some cases, it

might me mean going to dinners with some

of these older founders or owners of

companies and talking to them for a

while about their grandkids and their

hip replacement surgery or whatever it

is, but building the relationship and

then getting access to some of these

harder to find raw materials. Yeah, the

luxury space is is an interesting space

to be starting a company because it's so

dominated by all of these legacy brands.

I mean, that's part of what makes luxury

luxury, the idea that these brands have

been around for generations. I think

about, you know, Hermes and uh Louis

Vuitton and I I guess those are really

the two companies that seem to own the

space. LVMH and you got Hermes and you

kind of got everyone else. uh to what

extent do those companies dominate in

luxury? I mean, if you're an upstart and

you're trying to you're trying to get in

the game, are they boxing you out? Is it

more difficult in luxury than it is in

other sectors to really get your foot in

the door?

>> It's definitely harder. Yeah. And um you

you you said it exactly right that most

luxury brands are legacy brands. In many

cases, they didn't even start out

luxury. You have brands like Burberry

that really started out as trench coats

out in the trenches, you know, in in

fighting and became luxury only [snorts]

later on.

>> Um, and very often the luxury, you know,

association it takes decades. What we

were trying to do is everyone was

telling us it's impossible. And they

were right that it's hard, but it's not

impossible. We were trying to say that

for the problem we're trying to solve,

you actually need to be an outsider.

That the people that were really

entrenched in the world of fashion

didn't understand the problem. You

needed someone who actually works out on

Wall Street whether it be New York,

London, you know, Paris, Zurich or

Beijing to be in that work professional

place to know what was missing, what was

the void and to come in and I did have

an understanding of fashion. I always

liked nice things. So I had a little

appreciation for um fabrics and things

like that. So um but you it was

definitely hard but it was because it

was hard and it was because we were

coming as outsiders that we were

actually able to achieve what we wanted

to achieve and we were thinking about

things a different way and we actually

struggled. We were very lucky that um

the factory that we started working with

to develop our our real core collection.

The head designer we worked with out of

Italy was half Norwegian,

>> half Italian. He worked for Laura Piana

for 14 years and um he spent like half

his year in Norway outside understanding

the culture that we were trying to

really bring from like this whole idea

of Scandinavian outdoor living and that

there's no such thing as bad weather

there's just bad clothing. So he

understood the idea of having better

neck protection and better pockets and

you know closures and thinking about the

performance but was also really

entrenched in the world of luxury

fabrics and luxury fashion. So when we

met and we started talking about our

concept, you know, he ran with it. He

understood it and we were lucky to be

able to then get some access to, you

know, other manufacturing and resources

from there.

>> When you think about being in that

position where you're trying to break

into this new world, we're trying to

establish these relationships with

manufacturers, with factories, with

distributors. What would you say are are

the takeaways from what you got right?

You were trying to get your foot in the

door. You did it successfully. you're

now distributing your coats around the

world. Uh for someone else, for another

founder who's out there and they're

trying to just make that first step,

trying to establish that relationship,

what are some things you think that you

got right that allowed you to be

successful in that?

>> Even though when you're first starting,

you're on a budget, there's no cutting

corners when it comes to quality. Yeah.

And especially again if anyone is going

into any sort of luxury space whether

it's our industry of fashion whether

it's the food industry or any other

consumer good show everyone on both ends

on the manufacturing side and on the

selling side that your quality is just

amazing.

>> So that anyone who touches what you're

doing they're wowed by it. And then when

it comes to the selling side, even if

you don't have the legacy brand name

yet, that they're comfortable selling

your product and that the customers come

back with, you know, an incredible

feedback that they're bringing other

customers to their stores to buy this,

you know, item, whatever it is, that

that's gold and that's will get, you

know, that will open up so many doors

when people see that you're actually

bringing them something special. So,

understanding that you you have to be

budget conscious, but not when it comes

to the quality of your product. You

might even have to overpay to first get

it and then you'll bring it down once

you start scaling and you start showing

them that you're ordering larger

quantities and that's when you'll be

able to bring your prices down from your

cost side.

>> Do that later. Right now just make sure

the product's amazing.

>> So you figure out the distribution, you

you figure out the manufacturing, you're

making the coats at this point. The next

question is okay, how do we convince

customers to buy these things? How did

you do that? What was your story that

you were pitching to customers? whenever

we had an opportunity to say what we

were doing and what problem we were

solving, we were in a very good place. I

remember early on um we were at a trade

show and before the trade show would

begin there was a breakfast underneath

uh the building in this uh like

conference room area that would be for

all these stores across the world that

we'd hear presentations from new brands

and I was the new kid on the block so I

spoke last and the brands before me um I

would say honestly were not that

impressive in terms of their problem

that they were solving. I remember there

was one brand that said, uh, they're

making very comfortable shorts. And the

guy sitting in front of me goes, "I

didn't know uncomfortable shorts was a

problem." [laughter] Um, and there was a

couple of things like that. So, when I

got up, I wore one of my coats and

again, everyone was anxious to leave. I

was the last guy to speak, and

everyone's anxious to get to their

appointments. And I show up with real

New York energy. I just start clapping

my hands and waking everyone up and I

say, "Uh, how does my coat look? Does it

look nice?" Yeah. Yeah. I flashed them

open and showed them the whole thing was

lined with down and I said, "By the way,

this is Kashmir on the outside, fully

down lined and waterproof." I got a

standing ovation from everyone in the

room, [laughter] which is something

that's probably never happens in that

type of setting, but it's not because,

you know, um of the theatrics. It was

because everyone felt like, okay, that

is a real problem. We have customers

coming and asking us for stuff that

solves this problem, and we're letting

them leave empty-handed because there

was nothing on the floor that really

solved their problem. So we were writing

orders right then and there from stores

are saying we I already know which

customer you know he came in last week

and was asking for something like this

how quickly can you get it from me. So

that was the starting point just you

know being very very

>> clear about the problem we're solving

and then everyone's nodding their heads

and like we get it. There's the utility

side to it which is always important for

any business, any company. You need to

prove there is a problem. We're solving

the problem. This is the use case which

sounds like you were very clear about.

But when it comes to luxury, there's

there's another piece to it which is

like it's actually not all about solving

a problem. It's about a feeling. It's

about something that makes you feel

special uh dignified. And these aren't

necessarily

use cases. There's there's like a

there's there's a janisa about luxury.

So how do you do that as a startup? How

do you build a brand that demonstrates

aspiration that demonstrates luxury that

shows people this is something that you

want to aspire to and that you want to

pay a lot of money for. What happened

was is that originally through word of

mouth the code kept on getting on people

>> that would evoke that kind of emotion.

So uh and it kept on spreading from that

was dominoing. So when we started being

the main provider to a lot of the guys

going to to Davos, whether you like

those people or don't like those people,

people looked at them as being the real

influential movers and shakers in the

the whole business world and the richest

of the rich, people that could buy

whatever they wanted. And when stories

were coming out and the New York Times

did a whole piece called this is the

coat to wear to Davos and more and more

people were wearing it in places like

that and then we got into different

shows that really needed our product. So

then you start to have that association

uh where I want to be like those people

and that's what those people are

wearing. That's when it it continued to

explode that way and have that luxury

emotion. We always wanted from from day

one that it's not just a coat. It is an

emotion that when you put on one of our

products, whether a coat, a blazer,

anything, it should make your your

shoulders broader, that you go into the

meeting more confident in yourself, that

you go into the date more confident. For

guys and girls, we now do a lot of uh

women's. That's our fastest growing

area. So, it's not just about staying

warm and dry. It's about you're looking

forward. You're looking on your weather

app and saying, "Okay, in 2 days it's

going to be chilly enough. I can't wait

to wear that." That that's luxury when

you're looking forward to doing it and

excited for it and especially you're

excited to be seen in it. That that

changed everything.

>> Yeah. Now, it is the the Wall Street

coat and it is, as you say, the Daros

coat. And I think another big moment for

the company is when it got a shout out

in succession.

>> Yeah. um uh where I I forget which one

one of the Roy says, you know, I I left

my Norwegian wool in there. Um how does

that all happen at once? I mean, what

are you thinking when you see all of

these guys going to Daros, all of these

head honchos of all of these banks, the

people who you were originally trying to

impress when you were a commodities

trader and you're just trying to be

accepted uh on Wall Street, suddenly all

of these guys are wearing your product.

How did it get to that point? Why did

they start wearing the product? And how

did you feel when you saw that?

>> So felt great. It's very very

gratifying. And um I would say even more

gratifying for when they buy their first

is when they buy their second, third,

and fourth. And when you have um we have

this one very very famous uh billionaire

here from the New York area who uh he

might be number one for the most

personal shopping. We just calculated

he's up to 52 units and that's even more

than what I have. He doesn't keep all

them for himself. He gives them away for

a lot of them end of year gifts to a lot

of his important clients. So it feels

great because then you know that they

really like it. They've tested out and

they continue to come back. And that's

you know what every entrepreneur wants

to feel that whatever they're creating

really is is great. In terms of really

how to get there again come back to make

something really special. You know that

it's unique. One thing that I think that

is an amazing aspect of marketing is if

you do solve a problem and people have

whatever it is that you made, they want

to talk about it. It makes them feel

good that they found something,

especially if they're one of the earlier

ones to have it. That's something that

comes up at dinner tables and and

parties. They want to show it off. And

when someone hangs up their coat at a at

a dinner at a friend's dinner party and

they take it off and say, "Oh, this is

nice." They don't just say, "Thank you."

They say, "Oh, well, I happen to get

this and you do know you know whatever

it does." And you would have this free

marketing of people telling other people

and then people coming to when I we

opened our Fifth Avenue store, people

would come in and say, "I did dinner at

so and so's last night and I got to get

this." Yes.

>> Um so I think that there is something

special that people like to talk about

when they have something special like uh

the joke used to be how do you know when

someone has a new iPhone? They tell you.

>> So like uh and now that's not even you

know so you know that's uh such a common

thing. If someone has something more

special

>> they feel special when they have it and

they will talk about it. So would you

say that that is your your main

marketing strategy is letting the

customer do the marketing for you? They

put on the coat, they talk about it to

their friends. What how do you get your

brand out there? What is your marketing

approach?

>> Yeah, that's definitely a big part of

it. I mean, even some of the various

different partnerships we've done, we

don't really pay classic influencers. We

were very lucky that uh liquidity, if

you ever heard of him, is great. you

know, uh this was when he was still

anonymous and uh he came into our store

and someone told me he's like, I think

that's liquidity and I my my office is

upstairs. So, I came down and uh he was

there with a couple buddies to buy coats

and uh you know uh I told him, hey, I'll

give you something free if you uh you

know do a little shout out. So, he did

something where he at the time he had to

hold his baseball cap down.

>> Just for for the listeners, liquidity is

is this meme account that absolutely

exploded on Wall Street. former Wall

Street banker I believe turned me and

he's sort of the the biggest

>> influencer uh in the Wall Street game.

Sorry, continue.

>> Yeah. No, he's the guy that if you uh

are at the the equivalent of like the

the water cooler at Goldman Sachs and

you know it used to be people saying did

you see last night's game now people are

saying did you see his post and

everyone's talking about it. Yeah. So

like um he ended up buying more pieces

also, but like he he's great and he uh

took a picture of himself in Norwegian

wool with the name behind it, but he

blocked his face at the time with his

baseball cap down and just wrote

something like, "Love my Norwegian

code." And you know, within minutes we

had 120,000 people to our site.

>> Wow.

>> Um so yeah, so the more organic, the

more authentic,

um the better. And I think a lot of

customers are seeing that. you know,

anyone could just pay for someone to

wear something, but if there's actually

a connection, if someone's really

wearing it, even when they're not paid

to be wearing it because they really

like it, um, that gets out. Actually, we

were very lucky. Um, Patrick Dempsey was

shooting something in the area and they

had to stop production because he was

too cold and he needed to dress nicely

for that part. And their stylist came

and they they bought like four coats

from us because they wanted to just make

sure they they couldn't allow another

day to go by without without shooting.

And um when pictures came out of him

wearing it and the story came out that

he stopped production until he got his

Norwegian wool. Again, that wasn't that

we didn't pay for him. We didn't know

that that was going to happen. Uh the

authenticity certainly helps a lot.

>> There's something in there about sort of

honing in on these these micro cultures.

I I I mean stay with me here but the

idea that you are on the one hand uh

showing to the distributors I understand

the game of luxury. I understand this is

a very specific game and you want to

partner with me because I know all the

details. And then on the other side of

it, you have this memer who walks into

your store and I would bet you that you

know that the the store manager at Laura

Piana, if liquidity, this random meme

account on Wall Street walked in, they

wouldn't know, nor would they really

give a about the idea that this

this this meme account has walked into

the store. And there's something about

the idea that you knew that there was

this this niche uh cultural moment that

you could tap into here because this is

the Wall Street guy. I've been on Wall

Street. I know it. I know this problem,

this very very specific problem. And so

you tapped into this micro culture on

Wall Street which grew into okay now

this is the Wall Street coat grew into

now this is the Daravos coat. Then it's

this the fans of Succession are hearing

about this company and it's all a very

specific part of the market which is

kind of high finance New York culture.

Um talk a little bit more about how you

tapped into that and how important that

culture is to growing your brand.

>> Our culture is way beyond just the New

York finance. It would be any business

professional.

>> Yeah. who cares about how they look. And

at least for now, most of what we make

is chillish weather and above. It

doesn't have to be freezing, but we're

doing a lot of stuff that has some sort

of warmth aspect to it.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh even our rainear, which has grown a

lot.

>> And I think that um for all the respect

that I have for the luxury brands and

customers have, there's also a

recognition that they're very stubborn.

They do things the way they've done for

the last hundred years, for better and

for worse. M

>> and sometimes again you have to open up

your ideas a little bit differently and

say that there's a huge market that's

being left behind and there's there's a

lot of reasons why they ended up that

way and you know I think that when

you're in a specific fashion culture

that's designing with your windows

closed you know you're just trying to

design in a vacuum you end up forgetting

about certain basic needs and at the end

of the day our philosophy is that our

coats and our our our products are not

just for runways in Milan they're

actually be meant to be worn in New

York, Chicago, Boston, uh, San Francisco

and really worn, you know, in real life.

So, our design approach is very

relatable, very understandable, and it's

something that I think some people would

find a little bit they turned off by

some of the luxury brands that don't

appreciate. There have been a lot of

things, you know, I remember um, like

stretch originally a lot of the luxury

brands sort of poo pooed that like

stretches for for Walmart for just like

the guy who is the fat couch potato.

>> Stretches in like the material is

stretchy.

>> Correct. And you know, now they've

understood that being comfortable is

luxurious, right? And you know, our our

billionaires who are buying our stuff

want to wear jeans that have 5% elastane

in them and are super comfortably could

run a marathon in them and wearing super

super soft stretch pure cashmere

sweaters, not wearing something that's

stiff and rigid and uncomfortable. So,

they were a little bit slow to that, you

know. Um, even in the car industry, I'm

a big car fan. four-wheel drive.

All-wheel drive was something that the

luxury car brands are like, "Oh, that's

for the American brands and maybe the

Japanese brands." And now you see 4x4

Bentleys, you're seeing Maseratis and

Porsche, they're all doing that because

at the end of the day,

>> even if you're the wealthiest person,

you still might have to drive in bad

weather or you still like to be

comfortable and have the performance

aspect. Performance is luxury, right?

>> So, I think they've always been slow to

understand that. And since we have said

that the two worlds are not

contradictory, the softest luxury

Kashmir Vikunia with stretch and

waterproof is not a contradiction. It

belongs together.

>> Um that certainly helped and I think

that now coming back to how to resonate

with that world.

>> I think that uh you know again

everything I just said they're they're

going to be listening and nodding their

heads and be like we want both. We don't

want to have to choose between the two.

We don't want to have to have our

comfortable high performance coat

>> and then our nicel looking thing. like

why can't we have both come together?

Just like you have your your 4x4, you

know, Range Rover with the nicest, you

know, Napa leather, but it could also go

off-road here. If anything, most people

don't drive off-road the way the

commercial show, but people do walk, you

know, and it starts raining or snowing.

So, I think they totally get it. And um

I think there was an appreciation for

our story where we came from.

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We're back with Firsttime Founders. Your

brand is all part of the quiet luxury

trend that has been growing over the

past few years. Quiet luxury meaning no

big flashy brands, no big logos. Uh we

talked about the Canada Goose uh badge

on the on the arm. That would be the

opposite loud luxury. Um, I found this

this trend interesting because I mean

one thing that I think was really

positive about loud luxury from a

business perspective is that it is

basically

uh free branding. I mean free

advertising I should say. I mean

everyone who's wearing your clothes if

you have the logo big and bold and you

everyone's seeing it they're basically a

walking billboard. And I've always

thought that that is kind of a a

marketing and advertising hack that you

can just have your customers literally

wearing your brand around and projecting

to the world you should buy this brand.

Um I I'd be interested to hear how you

have taken up quiet luxury, [snorts] why

quiet luxury is the future, and your

thoughts on why it's perhaps more

difficult to be a quiet luxury brand

versus a loud luxury brand. So, um, this

must be like six, seven years ago, I was

interviewed somewhere and they were just

talking about how there's been a major

trend to spend more on outerwear and

that where people would try to find um

discounts and and bargains in other

places were spending a lot on outerwear.

So, I explained that, you know, for

other areas of clothing, a sweater,

let's say, if it pills after a season or

two, you might be okay with that. You

know, if it looks good and you can get

it for super cheap, great. But if a coat

doesn't do what it's supposed to do

already on day one, it's not keeping you

warm and dry. Then however cheap it is,

it's not worth it because you're wasting

your money. So people are realizing that

and you're seeing a lot of customers

that even if they have tons of money,

they will spend when it makes sense to

spend and they want value there and when

it doesn't make sense, they they rather

get a bargain. So the question was

followed up with, what do I think about

people spending a lot of money to get

the logo on their sleeve?

>> Yeah. So, I said, "Look, if you think

it's a nice coat and you think it's

good, get it. But if you're spending

1,500 2,000 just for the logo, you'd be

better off spending that money on

therapy." And [laughter] uh I know that

that shocked them a little bit, but I I

explained if that's what you're doing,

you really need to seek some therapy to

get some confidence in who you are. And

you know, you're covering up for other

issues. And that again, those coats

might be great. And if you're getting it

for other reasons, fine. But if you're

just wearing it to show off, it means

you don't you don't have confidence in

who you are. you need to walk around the

street and take someone else's story.

>> And I think um

>> quiet luxury was here even before it

became a trend that the media picked up

and is will always be a trend for people

that are confident in themselves because

they want to tell their own story. They

want to walk into room and everyone

wants to know about what they do for

their career, who what are they

accomplishing in their personal lives,

you know, to tell them for them just to

speak on behalf of some mega legacy

brand that you know should be paying

them to wear the coat. that's not as

exciting. That means you have less to

say about yourself. So I think for

people who want to be perceived as

confident and you know they have

something interesting going on in their

own lives. Tell your own story and let

let it be a again the clothing should be

beautiful but it should complement who

you are not some other brand. So I I'm I

love quiet luxury always have even

before we heard the term quiet luxury.

The beautiful clothing should should be

understated and speak for itself. Do you

think that is the reason why loud

luxury, maybe I'm wrong here, but I get

the sense that loud luxury is going out

of fashion, that you're seeing less of

these giant logos on people's clothes

anymore, whereas I I compare it to maybe

like 10 years ago where I feel like that

was a huge thing. It was cool to have

logos all over your clothes. Do you

think that part of the reason that it is

going out of fashion, if that is the

case, is because of that, it's because

people started to realize that

if you have to wear a logo to present,

you know, who you are and and and show

how cool or important you are or how

rich you are, whatever it is, then that

in itself is

not cool.

>> Yeah, I I I agree. It's an admission

that that you need someone else's help

to feel cool.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think that

>> consumers also care a little bit more

about stories now. I think uh people are

reading about the history of brands more

and what they stand for.

>> And in many cases, people are buying

fewer things but going deeper into those

things that they're getting. Um and I

think that that all plays out into that

world as well that getting something is

super special.

>> Why are people more interested? I think

that's right. They're more interested in

understanding what the story of the

brand is, how the materials were made.

Um, they want to understand who often

times they want to understand who are

the people who are running this company,

who is the founder of this company. What

do you think that is all about?

>> I would say it's a combination of

information being more available. So, it

used to be, you know, not that long ago

before internet was really the thing and

the hundreds and hundreds and thousands

of years of people buying stuff, you

didn't have access. If the founder was

many miles away, you didn't happen to

know them, you wouldn't have that kind

of information. Now, with with social

and the internet, you can find out the

information. So, if one brand is sharing

that information, one's not, then you're

more inclined to go with the one that

has more of a story.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I think the other thing is that

um

>> because everything you do wear does say

something about yourself and what your

values and ethos are and you know, who

you want to be and how you're perceived.

So when you're able to get more into it

and you're able to understand it more,

you're able to pick things that really

reflect what what you stand for. And I

think now people want that and people

want something that's special. Everyone

wants something special in their lives

and you know consumer goods. And if

you're able to make it that it really

makes you again more comfortable, more

confident, happy and you want people to

ask you about that. You don't want just

say yeah I got it on sale you know for

this but this is really special. Do you

know what this is? People want that. So

hence the interest in going with brands

that have stories,

>> right? How important has social media

been to your strategy? I mean my

understanding is that if you want to

launch a successful retail business

today, like you just have to be on

social media, you have to be advertising

on Instagram, Tik Tok. Maybe that's

wrong. Um but to what extent is social

media playing a part in your business

strategy?

>> That's a really interesting one because

I didn't really grow up so much with

social even though I'm not that old. I

I've never really gravitated as much

myself.

>> Um, and we have been successful and

growing a lot these last few years

through really not thinking about how to

make things successful in social, just

telling the basic things that we're

already doing.

>> So, if we're doing some sort of charity

partnership, uh, tell the people about

it and, you know, starting to show a

little bit more of the behind the

scenes. We just put together a little

video of behind the scenes how some of

our coats are made and like showing the

special machines we use to blow in

feathers into these small little

pouches. And I think that uh what we

realized is that we don't have to think

about this so so hard in terms of being

crazy out of the box in terms of crazy

um you know campaigns from a posting

standpoint. Just post what we're already

doing and there'll be people out there

that are interested in it. And now we've

even been posting a little bit more on

LinkedIn because LinkedIn has become

more of like a real social media place.

And we'll even notice a lot of people

come up to us and say, "Oh, we saw you

just, you know, in traveling to this

interesting place and, you know, that

was really cool." And we see that people

care about that. So, uh, we're we're

making the effort just to share more of

what we're already doing, which I'm a

little bit of a private person and we

keep our stuff pretty private, but we

have to go outside of our usual comfort

zone there and share it because people

do want to see that. Our codes take like

9 months to make. We have to let the

fabrics rest for a month doing nothing

just so that the waterproof membrane

bonds with the fabric. And like we were

told, you got to tell people that people

love like aged wines and aged, you know,

uh finer spirits. People want a coat

that knows that it wasn't sweat shop,

you know, in and out that uh you know,

this this took almost a year to make.

Yes.

>> Um so just sharing that people seem to

care about that. reminds me of one of my

favorite scenes in Madmen where I think

they're doing an ad for uh I think it's

Lucky Strike and they're trying to

figure out what should the message be

and they're trying to there's the

research coming out about the

relationship between cigarettes and

cancer and they're trying to navigate

all of that and then Don Draper asked

the guys, "Well, tell me about how you

make the cigarettes." And they're like,

"Well, first we take the tobacco, we uh

we put it in a tray, we toast it in the

oven." And he goes, "Stop right there."

and he's like, "It's toasted,

>> right?

>> That's your that's your message." And I

love that because as you say, it's just

it's describing just a small little

detail about the process by which these

products are made that gives you an

understanding and this feeling, oh, I

there's something there's something

different about this. There's something

specific that they are offering me,

which it sounds like that is kind of

exactly what you're going for as well.

>> So funny. I've actually quoted that

scene to to my employees and I remember

even one of the things he talks about

like menthol fresh and like

>> tell the people about it and we take it

for granted now afterwards but when

people first started telling those

stories

>> it wasn't always being done and I always

forget that some of the things that we

do which are super special everyone else

doesn't know about that so like our

design headquarters in Italy is actually

a castle it's super cool it's one of

these really old castles that is

surrounded by vineyards and it's such a

beautiful area you could see why they

get distracted Ed, and they take 9

months to make a goat because, you know,

they're finished by 5:00 every day.

There's no one staying there after 5:01

because it's so beautiful and they're

all, you know, getting their uh, you

know, all their drinks and everything.

But I remember someone from my team

said, you know, show people it looks

cool. And I'm like, you know what,

you're right. They're like, because most

times, you know, you know, people are

designing things not in a castle in

Tuscanyany. Yes. Um, and we know the

process that it takes to make this and

the painstaking process it takes to

make, you know, every one of our pieces,

but others don't show more of it and

show the beauty of, you know, the the

there's something to be said that you're

made in a beautiful area in some small

town in Tuscany as opposed to just a

sweat shop outside of, you know,

Shanghai or Ho Chi Min, whatever it is,

and uh, show that. So, we're doing that.

>> Just going back to social media, there

was a time when I mean, first it was

digital. I mean, my co-host Scott used

to consult for a lot of these luxury

brands, and when the internet was

happening, a lot of these luxury brands

said, "Our our product and our brand is

too high-end that we don't want to

really be associated with the internet.

We don't want to be advertising online."

Um, and then it gets to social media,

gets to Instagram and Tik Tok. And I

would imagine that there were similar

conversations happening where, you know,

uh, we are Louis Vuitton, uh, we are

Hermes, whatever your brand is, we're

going to be on giant billboards in Times

Square. We're not going to be on these

little Instagram ads when you're

scrolling through your feed. That's I

believe that is starting to change. But

do you think about ad placement and the

extent to which it might cheapen your

brand? I mean one of the one of the

things you have to do is you have to

make sure that your brand is protected

that is your your differentiator. I was

wondering to what extent does the

placement of your advertising and your

marketing if you're going on social

media do you worry about how that might

cheapen the image? These are

conversations we have all the time and

my overall viewpoint is is that we

always want to know what luxury thinks

are the standards but we will break that

if we feel there's a need to

>> and we do in the exact example you give

and other similar ones that if they're

luxury customers in a certain space

whether it be digital or physical and

they're doing their thing whether you

know commuting to work or or you know

using their phones and that's where

they're at, then by definition it is

luxury because this is where they're at.

And I don't care about, you know,

standards that says that, oh, that's

beneath us. You know, if we're able to

communicate our story and we'll be in

charge of our ads themselves and make

sure that they have a luxury feel, we'll

never go into areas that, you know,

where the ads themselves feel uh

inappropriate or cheesy or less than

luxury. But if there's a place where

luxury people are are crowding around,

get to them, you know, communicate. that

that's part of the stubbornness that I I

I see things differently. I I know a lot

of the other CEOs in other companies

will sometimes say, "Well, it's just not

the way it's done." And sometimes you be

like, "Well, maybe there's a a reason to

think that that that's not the smartest

thing." And, you know, uh we can can do

things a little bit different. The

again, part of our brand is is is

nodding our hat to the way things have

always been done, but part of us always

will shake things up a little bit. So,

we're not we're not shy to go to certain

areas of reaching luxury customers in a

luxury way, even if it's not standardly

done.

>> The other big piece of brand image when

it comes to luxury is pricing, which I

would imagine is one of the hardest

things to figure out in this space. How

did you figure out your pricing? What is

your pricing strategy? How has that

evolved and how will it change?

>> Pricing is one of the hardest things.

And what we try to do is work both on a

bottom up and top down perspective. So

bottom up is is working with our costs

and really understanding you know what's

the break even what do we have to start

with that we know we absolutely can't go

below this price point. Um we think

about it in a way that one thing that

again some of the luxury guys have been

offenders in the space is where they

price things very high but then they end

up on sale.

>> Um we really try to keep our price

integrity strong where it shouldn't be

that you buy it at the beginning of the

season and then two weeks later you see

it significantly less somewhere else.

So, we try to keep that very controlled.

Um, we really try to make it that our

price isn't artificially jacked up so

that the 40% off is the real price. We

we we start at what is the real price.

Um, occasionally, maybe at the end of

the season, there'll be something, you

know, triple extra largees are, you

know, available on sale from our, you

know, our our showroom or something like

that.

>> But, so keeping it steady is very, very

important.

>> Why is that important? What is the

problem with discounts and sales? Sales

is a four-letter word, you know. Uh

people

people are happy to spend, but they just

don't want it to be that the guy next to

them spends half the price. And you want

to spend for what the real thing is that

you want to spend because you know that

the materials and the craftsmanship are

very high, not that they're they're

charging some crazy price so that they

could give you a deal of 40% off. People

don't want those mind games and I don't

want those mind games when I'm shopping.

So you you know that our coats are not

cheap, but that you're getting something

really special and that, you know, for

the most part, this is the the real

price. Uh prices go up every year as

inflation and costs go up, but we also

try to make it that there's an element

of value in there as well, that you

don't feel like you're getting ripped

off. uh you know even uh you know the

real estate that we have and the various

different popups we do and we try to put

the money mostly into the product and

you'll see that we're not wasting money

on other things. So when you're getting

your box you really feel that the coat

is where the money is in not all the

other things that are detracting from

the quality but we're paying for all

these other crazy things that brands

will sometimes do and people appreciate

that. So, we would be on the middle to

slightly higher lux level, but there's

some other brands that have just gone

super crazy expensive. And I think

that's something else that um I I see

one of our competitors has a a coat now

for 75,000. And there there there are

people who buy that, but you know, when

I was working commodities, I I wasn't

going to show up to to work wearing one

of those coats. And even people who

could afford it, there are a lot of

people that feel like that that's that's

crazy. And um so the wellpriced normal

luxury is where we're at. [music]

We'll be right back.

We're back with first time founders. I

think one of the big uh pluses of being

a luxury brand is that there is a huge

benefit to your margins. And that is if

you can present through your brand and

through the story that you're telling a

a a more aspirational story, it means

that you can charge higher prices. And

yes, sometimes your costs are higher

because you're getting better materials

and more quality materials. And this

isn't just in fashion. This is in

literally every industry. But because of

the story and the aspirational story

that you're telling, customers are

willing to spend more to be part of that

story. Um, it sounds like you are trying

to keep things pretty affordable, which

I assume is, you know, you you you have

decent margins, but maybe they could be

higher. And and I could imagine that as

you as the as the the company grows, I

mean, what we've seen with all of these

other luxury brands is they will just

push the prices up as high as as high as

possible and they will sell a $75,000

jacket and it works for the business.

So, I'm just wondering how do you think

about that from a strategy perspective?

You do have an obligation to your

shareholders to increase your margins,

expand your margins, and at the same

time, you don't want to charge

ridiculous prices for these codes. So

one of the things we also do is keep our

quantities controlled. What destroys

some of the other brands is that they

flood the market and then they have all

this leftover inventory that then they

have to mark down. So even though yes,

theoretically their MSRP has a very high

margin, but what percentage are they

selling at the MSRP? And what percentage

are they really just offloading for dirt

cheap to these other discounters? And

we're seeing a lot of brands uh uh I

won't say which one, but one of the

major brands just uh lost 15% of their

uh market value last week because one of

the things that they were shown was that

they were supposed to be super expensive

and here they were absolutely just

dumping all this extra inventory.

>> So what we do is we keep our every year

we're growing and our quantities are are

certainly quite nice, but we're keeping

our distribution controlled. They're not

in every single store. You're not going

to walk one block and see seven stores

that are carrying it plus their own

boutiques and then having tons of

inventory at the end of the season. We

end up getting a tremendous amount of

pre-orders. Things sell out early and

then people are pre-ordering it. So what

that does is that it maintains our

margins are healthy margins, but it

means that those are real margins and a

very high percentage of the coats are

being sold at those full prices. So it

allows you again not to play those games

of theoretically very very high margins

but only 20% actually 10% get sold at

those prices right and um the FOMO is

also a big part of the branding that

people are buying in the summer already

to prepare for the winter knowing that

it will sell out so there are a lot of

brands that are very controlled

obviously Rolex protect Philip and uh

you know Hermes with their bags and

that's a very very smart thing you don't

want to flood the market it seems to be

a good idea for year one because you get

a bigger paycheck, but we have turned

down a lot of distribution options

knowing that they just buy big and then

at the end of the season who ends up who

knows where and we it's our brand. We

put everything into it. We want to know

where every code is. We want to know

everything that's being controlled and

that uh the customer appreciates that.

>> Yeah, the scarcity management is just

essential. Um looking ahead, what is the

future for your company? You you you're

selling these coats, you're having

success there. Are you now at a point

where you're thinking, okay, what other

products do we need to introduce? What

does the future look like for you at

this point?

>> Sure. So, on the product side, so

firstly, women's has been a huge part of

our growth. We only launched that a

about 5 years ago. And so, there's a

little catch-up there because men's are

ready. We have lighter weight options.

We have totally unlined options. We have

rainwear. We have sports jackets. Um, we

have hats, baseball caps, we have bags.

So, there's more items that we want to

make on the women's side. And both for

men's and women's, we're really not

looking to be a brand that makes

absolutely everything. I I I joke I left

the world of commodities. I'm not in

commodities now. So, you're not just

going to see a pullover polo or V-neck

sweater. There always has to be an

element of performance. So what we're

trying to do is make it that if you're

any sort of business professional again

whatever it is real estate finance you

could a lawyer anyone who needs to be

out and be seen and you're exposed to

some sort of fall winter weather that

for most of those things you could come

to Norwegian wool and find amazing

options. So for instance we have pants

being worked on right now that are wear

to work. They're like beautiful wool

cashmere with lots of stretch but are

not joggers because a lot of people

cannot wear joggers to work but they

feel like joggers. So, you know, trying

to expand into other areas where we

could take wool and cashmere and

performanceify it for, you know, uh, for

our customer, you know, that's where we

want that you, it should be a one-stop

shop for all the different things that

you feel aren't doing what they're

supposed to do. If your white cotton

t-shirt is doing a perfect job, then we

don't need to get involved in that. Uh,

you know, no silk ties from us, you

know, again, unless there is an element

of, uh, performance. Even with scars, we

haven't launched that yet because we

feel like if our scars are just like the

other scars on the market, there's no

reason for us to get into it. We want to

maintain our margins, be expensive, and

be great for what we are. So, there's a

lot of different products being

developed right now that horizontally

integrate us into those worlds.

>> And then, you know, we've also been

doing a lot of additional geographic um

acquire like getting into other places.

So, we have another setup in Paris this

year. We've been doing a lot in Europe.

Uh we've done pop-ups in Milan, pop-ups

in Paris, doing more in Paris, and and

uh we're doing something now with

Vienna.

>> So, this is very interesting. We're

doing a couple of collaborations, but

the collaborations we do again are not

necessarily the way you would think

from,

>> I don't know, just paying a celebrity to

put their name on a pair of sneakers

that they really have nothing to do

with. The collaborations, like we have

one that we're working on, which is

another company that has incredibly

specific, impressive expertise in

something that we may not have as much.

and we have what they don't have. So, we

want to really work together to create

and you could see both signatures on it.

It's not just one brand really making

the other one putting their label on it.

>> Um, and then we're working in in one way

on on a luggage collaboration that is

for for like a traveler piece. So, those

types of things interesting product

that's super lux that solves problems

and is is different. Let everyone else

in the fashion world go their way with

collaborations. We think about it a

little differently. Yeah, it is

interesting these collaborations which

was kind of a new thing maybe 10, 15

years ago, but sort of what you're

describing is that they've become a

little bit BS in a way where you can

really see through them when a celebrity

shows up and like oh I'm wearing my new

Reebok or the new Travis Scott I mean

even McDonald's the Travis Scott

McDonald's meal. I mean there are that

there there are there's a sense in which

these these trends become so

corporatized

um and and you can feel the companies

sort of squeezing money out of these

things to a point where it does cheapen

the collaboration and suddenly it

doesn't feel special anymore. And it is

interesting how it's like there's if you

want to if you want to present a brand

that people believe in, you need to

really be believing in these

collaborations yourself, you need to

have some reason as to why this specific

brand or this specific partnership is

important or resonates with us. And it

cannot just be we're going to make money

here because this guy's a big deal.

>> And I'm fine with a McDonald's doing

something like that. I just think in the

world of luxury it should be at a higher

level than that. And it shouldn't be

just a cheap writing check type of

situation. If you're collaborating,

collaborate, work together. Like I want

to see that whatever the collaboration

is, is there's two groups of people

using their brain power together and

say, "This is what we know. This is what

you know. Let's make something

transcendental together based on these

two levels of expertise." When that

happens, that's really cool and amazing.

Um, again, when it's just paying someone

to wear something for one year and then

they're getting paid by someone else to

wear it the next year. I mean, silly.

>> Yeah. Absolutely. Um well, you've been

very generous with your time. Appreciate

it. Um just final question before we

wrap up here. [snorts] Uh if you had any

advice to any young entrepreneurs, um I

would say people who are working perhaps

in the fashion industry or at least in

the arts in general, uh what would your

advice be and why?

>> I think everything else that comes to

mind are things that are obvious. You

know, making sure your numbers add up

and making sure that you're really

solving a problem. I hear all the times

the the uncomfortable short situation

where people say, "Wasn't this ever a

problem?" And you're like, "No, that

wasn't." So, make sure you're getting

the honest answers on that. But if I

were to give one one piece of advice is

actually customer service.

>> Um, I see all the time we get flooded

with actual fan mail from people who

bought and have worked with us,

especially on the digital space. Because

when you're buying something cheap on

digital, you don't really care if it's

exactly what you think. If you end up

not returning it, okay, it's not that

much money. buying expensive things in

store, but especially digitally, it's a

scary thing to do. Even if you have the

money, you just don't want to throw

$2,000 out and buy something. You don't

want to become a UPS distribution center

in your house.

>> Um, so

make sure to have amazing customer

service. I think that's something people

really crave. And like I just I just

bought a pair of shoes and when it came

the color was wrong. So when I I I did a

live chat with them and I asked them

this question. It took like 30 minutes

till they responded and I just wanted to

know what is the color you know that I'm

looking for cuz I had them once before

and they said just order and if it's not

right return it

>> and I wrote back I didn't need to wait

35 minutes just to be told just try it

and if it's not right return it. They

the people that working for them and

their customer service I don't know if

it was an AI bot or a real person but

the knowledge there wasn't there

regardless. Know your stuff. Make sure

you have a team that knows your stuff

that's passionate about it. Make sure

that every aspect of your customer

service when you're interacting with

customers has that luxury feel. I think

people are so sick and tired of spending

a lot and feeling like they're in a

crappy store that you're like that like

they're doing you a favor, you know,

like uh so I think that whatever

customer what consumer good you're in,

make sure that the experience is a fun,

easy, good experience that they feel

like when they're calling you, texting

you, you know, live chatting you that

they're actually getting helpful

experience. People love it. It's

amazing. Like if you just give someone

the guidance on what size to get and

it's right,

>> the amount of appreciation there is more

than what people would expect. It's it's

more than the okay, I'm happy I got the

right size. I didn't have to return it.

It's a lot more than that. So

>> go all out on good customer service and

and value that, you know, very very

greatly in terms of your business plan

and how you're going to deal with it.

You could have a great product, but if

it's not communicated well to the people

who are buying it, and if it's not sold

in a way that people enjoy that process,

again, it will be very limited.

>> My final question, what is the best

example of customer service you've seen?

And it could be something that you've

done or something you've experienced,

but I totally agree with you. I think

customer service is so underrated. What

is a moment where you were like, damn,

that is great customer service? So, a

couple years back, we have a uh a couple

of people who are like our customer

service managers who manage everyone

else who takes care of customer service.

And uh we were smaller back then, but an

issue was brought to my attention that

someone from I remember it was

Greenwich, Connecticut, had bought a

coat with one request. They had spoken

to someone for a while, but they wanted

to be a surprise for their husband for

for a Christmas gift. So they said, "Can

you please hold on to it for like 2 or 3

days because if you ship it after that,

I'll be home and I'll be able to put it

aside, but if you ship it right away and

it gets there, he he's home and he's

going to see it."

>> Mhm.

>> Because it's before Christmas and things

were super super busy. The person who

helped that and said, "Sure, didn't

properly make sure to go to the

warehouse and make sure it gets held

up." And lo and behold, it got shipped

and the woman wrote that the husband

loves it. great coat, but now she

doesn't have a surprise for under the

tree on Christmas Day.

>> And um this was brought to my attention

and I said, you know, we really dropped

the ball on this. You know, he's going

to love his coat, but their experience

is going to left a sour taste in their

mouth.

>> I said I looked at the conversation.

They were deciding between two coats,

two very different ones. I said, "We're

going to send the other one completely

for free."

>> Yeah.

>> And tell them that we're doing it and

make sure you're coordinate this time

and get it right that uh you know, come

to them uh when she could get it. The

husband was definitely not expecting a

second coat. Yeah. Loved how it was

different and it solved her problem of

giving a gift, but it just changed. It

turned lemons into lemonade. We did mess

up. We owned it. She spent all this time

explaining what she needed from us and

we we didn't follow through. Now we got

to, you know, match that in the other

direction and, you know, just try to

make it right. I think that's what

people want, a real relationship.

>> Real relationship and the goodwill as

well of the brand. Michael Burkowitz is

the founder and CEO of Norwegian Wool.

Michael, we really appreciate your time.

My pleasure. Thanks so much.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you for listening to First Time

Founders for Prof Media. We will see you

next month with another founders story.