There's mention of Greenland being

invaded by the United States. There's

the situation in Iran. Trump has

snatched Maduro from Venezuela. There's

talk of China taking back Taiwan. What

the hell is going on?

>> Well, what you're seeing is the West

becoming weaker and embolding our

enemies and the final collapse of a

shared myth that we were living in a

structured world where everything is

done according to the rules. That is now

gone. And Trump is acting in recognition

of that reality, saying we are not going

to play by the fake rules anymore that

no one else is playing by. Anyway,

>> is there a risk with this strategy?

>> Of course. And we can talk about the

reasons for it. I think it's really

important.

>> The floor is yours.

>> Constantine Kissen is one of the

sharpest voices in political commentary

right now.

>> He's here to unpack the current

geopolitical landscape and what could be

done to salvage the West before it's too

late.

>> So, Russia invading Ukraine was not an

accident. It was a consequence of the

fact that Putin felt this was the moment

to test the waters. Can we now do the

things we've always wanted to do?

Because the West lost its focus and

sense of purpose. So, for example, I

don't know if you know this, Europe is

12% of the world's population, 25% of

the world's GDP, and 60% of the world's

welfare spending. Germany destroyed its

nuclear facilities, thereby making

itself reliant on Russian gas. And in

Britain, we've destroyed our

manufacturing, which is now produced

elsewhere. and we've run down our armed

forces because we have felt so safe and

so comfortable because there's been no

consequence. Well, the consequences are

here per person. We have less money

today than we did 20 years ago. We have

the highest tax burden in peace time

history. We're driving out the

entrepreneurs and we've already seen a

decline in our power in the world and

our influence in the world. That's the

big danger. But there is an opportunity

to turn things around if we can make

these big decisions. What are you

hopeful?

>> Listen, my my team gave me a script that

they asked me to read, but I'm just

going to ask you um in the nicest way I

possibly can. Thank you first and

foremost for choosing to subscribe to

this channel. It is um it's been one of

the most incredible crazy years of my

life. I never could have imagined. I had

so many dreams in my life, but this was

not one of them. And the very fact that

these conversations have resonated with

you and you've given me so much feedback

is something I will always be

appreciative of. And I almost carry away

a sort of burden of uh responsibility to

pay you back. And the favor I would like

to ask from you today is to subscribe to

the channel if you um would be so

obliged. It's completely free to do

that. Roughly about 47% of you that

listen to this channel frequently

currently don't subscribe to this

channel. So if you're one of those

people, please come and join us. Hit the

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you down if you hit the subscribe

button. I promise you. And if I do,

please do unsubscribe, but I promise I

won't. Thank you,

Constantine.

There is so much going on in the world

right now that it is incredibly

confusing to somebody like me who

doesn't spend a lot of time thinking

about geopolitics or the bigger picture.

I'm very very heads downstand as I

imagine a lot of people in my audience

are. We kind of get on with our lives.

But every time we look up at the news,

there's Trump has snatched Maduro from

Venezuela. There's the war with Russia

and Ukraine. There's something going on

with Iran. There's mention of Greenland

being invaded by the United States.

There's talk of China taking back

Taiwan. I wanted to speak to you today

to understand your perspective on the

bigger picture here.

>> What the hell is going on?

Well, what you're seeing is the the

final collapse of what people have

described as the postworld war II order,

which then became the post Soviet

collapse order. So, if you think about

1945, World War II finishes and the Cold

War begins. So, you go from World War II

to two big major players in the world

competing for dominance. And that lasts

until 1991 when the Soviet Union

collapses at which point you get the

uniolar world in which there's only one

hedgeimonyy, only one country that's

really setting the terms of what's

happening in the world. The west lost

its focus and its sense of purpose in

1991 because we were like, well, we we

defeated our great rival, communism,

Soviet, Russia, etc. And then we kind of

didn't really know what to do and we

took eye off the ball. And what's

happening now is that entire framework

that we have had since World War II is

disintegrating very rapidly. This is why

you know in in light of recent events

and the the Maduro situation you hear a

lot of people talk about international

law. International law was I don't know

if you if you ever had you will know

Harrari on your show. I have yet to

wrote the book book called Sapiens in

which he talks about the fact that

almost everything that we live in the

world in in which we exist is a kind of

shared myth that we have and laws and

money and all these things. They are

agreements that we have between us to

make things real that are not real.

Money isn't real. That piece of paper

has no value in your pocket really

outside of the fact that other people

have got together and agreed that it's

money. Right. Well, international law

really was that, but even weaker than

that. Because if you think about what a

law is, a law is something that has to

be backed by not only the consent of the

people who are involved, but also

ultimately it's about the use of force,

the legitimate use of force. Now, for

international law, there's never been

anything that could enforce that law

other than the most powerful country in

the world, right? So if China invades

Taiwan, no one's going to do anything

about it because there is no overarching

authority with the military to be able

to do anything about it. And so that

shared fiction that we had which we were

living in a structured world in which

everything is done according to the

rules, the rules-based order. You might

have heard that term being used. That is

now gone. And Trump is acting in

recognition of that reality. and he's

saying, well, given that it's sort of

every man for himself now, I'm going to

do what's in the interest of the United

States. Is it in the interest of the

United States, for example, to have an

openly hostile leader of a country close

to the US, which is so destabilized that

7 million people have fled as refugees?

>> Venezuela.

>> Venezuela. Is it in our interest to have

this person cozying up to Russia and

China? Is it in our interest to allow

him to have Hezbollah training camps on

the island of Margarita? Is it in our

interest? It's going back to the Monroy

doctrine, the idea that America does not

allow foreign nations to meddle in its

backyard, so to speak. And so what he's

doing now is going, "Well, look, this is

the world we live in. I'm going to do

what's best for my country." And I think

that's what you're seeing.

>> Is there a risk with this strategy?

>> Of course, there's a risk with every

strategy. Of course, there's a risk with

this strategy. There was a big risk

inevitably with this strategy and I

think you know as I talked about in my

book the the west becoming weaker and

emboldening our enemies which is what we

have done for a long time now is

creating an environment where we are

opening ourselves up to challenge from

other forces. Russia invading Ukraine

was not an accident. It was not an

accident. It was a consequence of the

fact that Putin and other people in his

leadership team felt this was the moment

to test the waters. Can we now do the

things we've always wanted to do

>> and they felt they could do that under

Biden in your view?

>> Yes. But see, I wouldn't personalize it

down to that level. I think far too many

people get carried away with, you know,

Republican, Democrat, left, right,

Biden, Trump. It's an ongoing process

that's been going on for decades. And

the culmination of it was first the

invasion of Ukraine, then October 7th.

October 7th was not an accident either.

Hamas backed by Iran felt that this was

their moment to act because again is the

West going to be able to respond

morally, militarily, and in other ways

powerfully to that. They felt that they

were able to test it. The fact that

China now is openly talking about taking

Taiwan is again another symptom of this

same thing. So the risk is there and of

course the risk as well is that you know

the the crumbling western alliance we

can talk about the reasons for it. I

think it's really important to

particularly we're recording this in

Britain and and in Europe more broadly.

I think that's an important

conversation. The western alliance is

falling apart. Um and that is always

going to be a risk. It's particularly

big risk for Europe. I feel

>> how much of this and before we go into

the details and just catch up on a few

of the things you said there. How much

of this is linked to nuclear weapons?

Because I was thinking I I can't really

All of these superpowers are going for

countries that aren't armed with nuclear

weapons.

>> And it all it somewhat feels to me that

the reason why the US wouldn't get

involved if China took Taiwan is because

they have nukes. And the reason why

the US is a little bit intimidated by

Russia is because they have nukes. So is

it really the world is splitting into

nuclear powers and anyone with nukes can

do what the they want because they

can basically wipe out planet Earth if

they get angry. And that has always been

the case except we've been constrained

by the framework of the rules-based

order. But that got taken apart. And

this is where I think the West and the

United States including needs to take

responsibility because the the war in

Afghanistan and Iraq even more so

completely undermined our moral

credibility. You know, how can you say,

well, Russia isn't allowed to invade

Ukraine if you go around invading

countries on a whim, making up excuses

and reasons to do that. So we have

eroded our moral authority and we've

also eroded our military strength and

the potential that we have to inflict

damage on people who misbehave so to

speak. So both of those things have come

together.

>> It seems so crazy to me that in my

lifetime I'm I'm seeing cuz it's really

never happened in the 33 years that I've

been alive. I'm hearing a US president

talk about kidnapping another president

and then going in and taking the oil.

And then you know what? We might take

Greenland as well. We might have that

big country over there as well. Even

though it belongs to a NATO ally in

Denmark,

>> it it feels like something has

fundamentally changed.

>> It has.

>> And I'm scared of the presidents this is

going to set because do we then all just

get to start taking countries we want?

>> Well, this is what happens when there is

a a a a shifting of the balance of

power. This is why I always said

maintaining the unipolar moment as it

was and not allowing the west to weaken

itself was a really important thing

because the moment you have a power

vacuum, you always have a power

struggle. Mexico is a very good example

of this. If you look at what's been

happening, there's been a a gigantic

drug war in Mexico for the last 20 years

because there are different cartels

vying for power. And the moment you take

out the leader of one cartel or

something happens, there's a bloodbath.

Because this is what happens when the

central authority, the central power,

the the current system breaks down. You

inevitably end up in a much more

violent, much more unstable, much more

unpredictable place. And all Trump

really is doing is reflecting the

reality that has been already there for

years, except he's reflecting in

American foreign policy. He's saying,

"Well, look, if Russia is going to do

what it wants to do, and we can't stop

them, and if China is going to do what

they want to do, and we can't stop them,

well, we've got to do what we've got to

do, and no one's going to stop us." And

that's the world you've ended up in. And

by the way, just on the nuclear point, I

think it's important to say you're 100%

right. And this is one of the things

I've always said about not supporting

Ukraine properly, which we haven't done.

we have not supported them enough to be

able to actually fully repel the

aggression from Russia is it would

inevitably lead to lots of other small

countries pursuing nuclear weapons

because it is the only guarantee of

security in this world. it that is a

huge danger for the world in terms of

nuclear proliferation because if the

precedent is like you say the people

with nuclear weapons can do what they

want and they can never be attacked and

the people with no nuclear weapons are

vulnerable and weak what would be the

most rational thing for you to do if

you're a smaller country that's the big

danger

>> cuz you know you were talking about a

uniolar world and a multi-polar world

but I wonder if the it's going to be how

many nuclear powers are there there's

like nine or or 10

>> if the world is going to split into

these 10 nuclear powers and these 10

nuclear powers can basically do what

they want.

>> Well, nuclear powers are different. I

don't I don't see Pakistan likely to be

rampaging through its neighbors, not at

least cuz they're all they're all

nuclear powers themselves. Uh I think

you're you're talking about Russia,

China, and the US primarily. I don't see

Britain, you know, reinvading France,

although that's something obviously I'm

in favor of. If Pakistan decided to take

a neighboring country though,

>> nobody can really come for them because

>> uh economic

>> having one nuke is not the same as

having a gigantic nuclear arsenal. I

think Pakistan is relatively constrained

in its behavior, but the big superpowers

are not. So,

>> by the way, retaking France was a joke.

I just want to make that clear.

>> And there's eight there's nine nuclear

powers. United States, Russia, UK,

France, China, India, Pakistan, North

Korea, and Israel. Although I don't

think they admit it.

>> Yeah. Israel's policy on nuclear weapons

is very funny. Do you know what the

official position is? We don't have

nuclear weapons, but if the state of

Israel is at risk of being destroyed, we

will definitely use them.

>> So, how did we get here? What are what

are the factors at play that brought us

to this particular situation? You talked

about the crumbling of the Western

Alliance and other things. What what do

we need to know about what happened for

us to get to this state where it seems

like it's every big power for themsel?

>> Well, partly we've already talked about

it. So it's it's after 91 in particular

the west loses its not only its sense of

purpose but it loses its its sense of

danger and sense of risk. So we get very

comfortable. I don't know if you know

this uh Europe is 12% of the world's

population, 25% of the world's GDP and

60% of the world's welfare spending.

>> Wow.

>> So if you do that, that is a sign that

you've got very comfortable. You've got

very lazy. You have lost the ability to

realize you live in a dangerous world.

It's, you know, this is a bit of a

sidetrack, but it is an important

addendum to this conversation. This is

why European countries have pursued

economic suicide that we call net zero

as vigorously as we have because we have

felt so safe and so comfortable. we've

engaged in all this luxury uh obsessions

to the point where as you know Germany

destroyed its nuclear facilities uh

thereby making itself reliant on Russian

gas so that when Russia invaded Ukraine

the Germans opened the first thing that

they said is oh we were going to support

Ukraine we're going to give them 5,000

helmets right because they were so

dependent on Russian gas because they

refused to produce their own energy this

is exactly the same thing we've done in

Britain Britain has the highest

industrial electricity prices in the

world in the developed world which means

we basically destroyed all our

manufacturing industry which is now

produced elsewhere. We're getting to the

point where we can't make our own virgin

steel. Steel is kind of important if you

want to have a military etc etc etc. So

in Europe in particular, this has

happened because we've just felt so safe

and so comfortable and also so

rudderless that we've been able to

engage in all these looney ideas because

there's been no consequence. Well, the

consequences are here.

>> Where does Britain and Europe sit in the

sort of rankings of importance in the

world and power?

>> It's plummeting.

I mean, look at the the Trump's uh

12-day war in Iran, destroying Iran's

nuclear facilities. No one even asked

the British what we thought about

anymore. And that's not because, you

know, a lot of people like to say, "Oh,

you know, the Americans, they hate the

British." Americans love Britain. As you

know, you live in America now. You have

a British accent. I'm sure people come

up to you all the time and talk to you

about their connections with our

country, the shared history, all of that

stuff. The problem is we have made

ourselves irrelevant because everything

that Trump is looking at is strength.

Right? Is Britain strong now in the

world? No. Is Europe strong now in the

world? No. And so if you're not strong,

you will not be taken seriously. And

unfortunately because of what our

leaders have done over success of and

it's left right every political party

that we have that's been in power they

have overseen a decline in our status in

the world in our power in the world in

our influence in the world to the point

now where the Americans are looking at

Europe and they're going why would we be

allied with people who are not useful to

us an alliance is kind of like a

marriage both people have to bring

something to the table what do we bring

to the table from an American

perspective

>> this is a fairly new thing, isn't it?

Because I remember growing up, I'd

repeatedly hear the prime minister of

the UK talking about how he had spoken

to his US counterpart and they had made

a decision and then in even with the

Venezuela situation, I think Karma came

out the next day and said like, I had no

idea this was happening.

>> Of course, but why would you consult

with people who don't matter?

>> Why don't we matter?

>> We don't matter because we have nothing

to bring to the table. We don't despite

the the extremely high level of

professionalism, our technological

superiority, the courage of our soldiers

and our sailors and our airmen, despite

the immense military tradition Britain

has, we have cut I mean our debt

interest repayments annually

1.5 times heading towards being twice

our defense budget. We spent more on

paying off the debt, the national debt

every year than we spend on defense. How

did the UK get here?

>> Well, our our debt to GDP is over 100%.

We keep borrowing money. We talked about

the disproportionate amount of welfare

spending and social spending and so on.

We got here by forgetting that we live

in the real world and engaging in lots

of luxury beliefs about what we ought to

do. Uh so we have the highest tax burden

in peace time history in this country.

And we do that not because we want to

have a robust military or to do other

things like that. We do it so that we

can continue to pay ourselves money we

don't have borrowing it from our

children and our grandchildren. And this

is the case across Europe really.

America also has a high level of debt

but they have a growing economy unlike

ours. Britain uh Britain's GDP per

capita is lower today than it was in

2006. We have per capita which is what

matters per person. We have less money

today than we did 20 years ago. So our

economy's declined. We've destroyed our

manufacturing. we've run down our armed

forces. And also, I mean, look,

President Trump, I think, is fair to

say, is quite sensitive about what

people say about him. We have a

government now that very imprudently and

unwisely spent the time they were in

opposition on him on a daily

basis. David Lambie, if you take, who's

our foreign secretary, if you take some

of his comments about President Trump,

they were just deeply irresponsible.

whatever you think about the rights and

wrongs of what he said. A someone who

has the potential to be this country's

foreign secretary in charge of our

relationship with the United States

cannot be so imprudent as to make those

kinds of comments. And then you're

going, well, you've just been calling

this guy every name under the sun and

now you want to you want to be relevant.

You want to be taken seriously. You want

to be engaged with as he makes huge

decisions about geopolitics. Actions

have consequences and the actions we

have been taken have produced the

consequences that we've got. Now look, I

am not all doom and gloom about that. If

we change our strategy and if we change

our behavior, we can change the pro the

the the end product of that. We can do

that. But that's going to require a

massive readjustment

>> with the current direction of travel.

Where does the UK end up?

>> We're already there. We're irrelevant.

We are irrelevant when these, like you

said, Venezuela happens. No one cares

about us. When Iran gets bombed, no one

cares about us. All the future big

decisions about geopolitics are going to

be made without Britain even being

considered because it's going to be made

by the major powers of which Britain is

no longer one.

>> You choose to live in the UK despite

your views that the UK is a bit of a

sinking ship. I guess

>> because of my views actually.

>> Because of your views.

>> Yeah. Like look, you've moved to the

United States, which I'm grateful for

cuz it's made us the biggest UK podcast

in our space. I I appreciate that. But

as you can imagine, we get offers to do

the same in all sorts of different ways,

and we could have done the same. I love

this country. I'm very grateful to, and

I feel to stay and fight for it and to

articulate my views and try and persuade

people to my point of view so that we

can have a British renaissance, so that

we can have a British recovery is my

duty for as long as I can do that. And

if at some point, you know, I feel it's

completely futile, which I do not. Um,

>> so you hopeful.

>> I'm not despondent to the point of

giving up is where I am.

>> Are you hopeful?

>> No. No. But but I'm also not at the

point where I feel it's futile. I think

there is there is an opportunity to turn

things around if if everything comes

together and we're very fortunate. Uh,

and that's what I'm hopefully trying to

contribute to. through history when

companies pursue the strategy that the

UK is currently pursuing

>> where where does it end up economically?

>> Well, Stephen, you're the business guy.

You tell me.

>> No, but I don't I'm not I don't have the

greatest view of history and so I'm

wondering if there's because you know in

the UK I I was born 33 years ago in

Bosotswana and I moved to the UK when I

was young and um I've always known the

UK to be important and consequential and

the the economy to be, you know, much

better than where I'm from in Botswana.

So it's it's almost inconceivable for a

British person of my age to to think

that the UK could ever not be that. Yes.

Because it's always been in my lifetime.

>> Yes. But that is in many ways I'm not

pinning the blame on you obviously, but

that is in many ways how we got here.

Because what we thought collectively

was, well, look, no matter what we do,

we're always going to be Great Britain.

We're going to have a great economy.

We're going to have a strong military.

We're going to have a this. We're going

to have influence in the world. And then

we started doing lots of stupid

And that's how we've ended up in the

place that we've ended up. So this

country has every potential to be great.

The people are incredible. The level of

education, uh, the scientific and

technological advances that this country

has produced, the cultural, look at the

greatest bands in human history. Like

half of them are British comedians. I

mean, standup comedy is not a a British

invention. It was actually invented in

America. But look at some of the

greatest comedians in human history.

Again, lots and lots of British people.

So culturally, scientifically,

technologically, economically, we have

the potential. We have to have the

correct leadership and the right

strategy. And those two things have been

lacking for a long time. That's how

we've ended up here. Can we turn it

around? It's going to be very, very,

very difficult. But I but we've got to

try.

>> Why would these issues impact us on a

individual level? So I'm thinking about

the average person listening now,

whether they are in the United States or

here in Britain. You know, this stuff

happens kind of up above us and we get

on with our lives. But what are the

symptoms we'll begin to see

>> this multipolar world or the the fall of

Britain?

>> You are already poorer today than you

were 20 years ago

>> per capita

>> in the UK.

>> In the UK,

>> yeah,

>> that seems to me quite important. And in

fact, many of our conversations about

domestic issues, whether it's mass

immigration and all of these other

things, they're really proxies for that

conversation. because if we if the

economy was growing and people felt

richer,

all of this stuff would become less

important, right? Well, I think we'd

agree with that. So, that's one aspect

of it. The other aspect of it is, as I

talked about the multipolar world being

by necessity more violent and unstable.

We are going, you know, you we I don't

know when this will go out, but we're

recording this in the middle of January.

It's been like two weeks since the year

started and we've already seen crazy

amounts of instability geopolitically

already. Is that fair to say? So, this

will continue and that will bleed

through to domestic politics because if

you have to spend more of your resources

worrying about things abroad, it means

you can do less at home and so on and so

on and so on. So the the ramifications

of this will be very impactful on

everybody around the world more on

non-western countries because they a lot

of them are going to be in the front

line of this in in the way that I I

doubt we will be. Uh but still the

consequences for us will be very

significant.

>> And we're seeing adjacent to this this

rise in socialism.

>> Yeah.

>> The conversation around socialism.

Obviously Menani has been elected mayor.

But do you think this is at all linked

to the bigger picture this rise in

socialism?

>> Yeah. In fact, I I think you know I

wrote an article a long time ago called

Why I Fear the Future and I did a video

based on it in which I talked about

something. It's interesting. I did a

live show um here in London just before

Christmas and I did a book signing and

one of the guys came up to me and he

said, "I've got two kids. They're both

teenagers, daughter and the son and I'm

trying to pull the daughter in from the

far left and I'm trying to pull the son

in from the far right." That's going to

be the big challenge going forward

because um the amount of chaos and

instability and cultural kind of

cultural upheaval that we've seen has

produced a craving for order and on the

social that's the right side you know we

must you know get this and on the other

side it's produced a sense of injustice

and the pursuit of inequality. That's

why you hear people talk so much about

the rich the rich the rich the rich and

you know eat the rich we got to

redistribute all of this stuff because

particularly in the big cities young

people rightly feel that they can they

can't really get on the housing ladder

they can't establish a family life is

more difficult so they reach for these

very um dis disproven discredited and

completely unworkable solutions of the

kind Manny uh will of course deliver but

it's because their sense of their sense

is that the future's been taken away

from And in many ways they're correct

because as I said earlier we have been

borrowing from our children and our

grandchildren. We've been saddling with

crippling debts our entire economy that

will come to an end and it's going to be

them that is left to foot the bill and

it's going to be very painful and partly

they see that and already they see that

they just can't afford the life that

they want. I do think in the United

States it's a much more contained

phenomenon. I think Mamani and if you

look at sort of the American socialists,

they all tend to cluster around New York

and one or two other big cities. It's

not like the entirety of America is

going socialist. But I think housing

unaffordability is one. Another

explanation which I think is also

powerful is what's called elite over

production which is if you have as Tony

Blair did this idea that 50% of the

public should should go to university.

Well, they do and then it turns out

there's not enough jobs for them.

Particularly in the age of AI where they

are the jobs that are being eliminated

very rapidly. You then get a lot of

people whose entitlement is up here and

whose prospects are down here. That

produces a tremendous amount of social

disease as well.

>> I think this is a really important

connected point

on the subject of socialism and the rise

of socialism that we will see is this

point of AI. And when I listen to very

very smart people who are considered to

be the godfathers of AI or CEOs who are

building these technology companies,

there seems to be a consensus that

socialism will only increase because the

job losses associated with AI are going

to be pretty quick and pretty extreme.

And um I mean one of them that most

Brits won't understand is something we

understand now living in America, which

is my car drives itself.

>> Yes. And I I've said this a few times

because I'm really trying to it's like

the first moment Eureka moment I think

you have is in America when I get in my

car I don't touch the steering wheel or

the pedals and it can drive me to Joshua

Tree which is like 2 and a half three

hours away uninterrupted and I say this

because driving is like one of the

biggest employees in the world. I think

it is the biggest profession in the

world

>> and London just announced that Whimos

are here and soon surely Teslas will be

allowed to do full self-driving here as

well

>> and in such a world delivery drivers,

taxi drivers, Uber drivers are going to

be without jobs and we're seeing this um

huge rise in autonomous humanoid robots

as well

>> and Elon's pay packet says that he he

will make a million of these autonomous

robots and get them out into the world

and Jason Kakanakas who just visited

Elon 's factory said there'll be a

billion of these and he thinks that we

won't even even remember Tesla for

making cars will only remember them for

the robots they're made because these

Optimus robots which are coming are

going to be so consequential and the

last point here is a very good friend of

mine who runs this big sort of

innovation accelerator in San Francisco

I visited the accelerator a couple of

weeks back and um he I said to him why

why is everybody here all these young

founders these 40 50 young founders in

your building called effing all working

on robotics and he goes well you know

we've had all parts for like 20, 30

years. But the expensive part was the

intelligence.

>> The brain.

>> Yeah. The brain. He goes, "Now we have

the bra." He said, "It used to He showed

me this arm, this robotic arm that had a

frying pan on it that would cook for you

in a box. It just cooks whatever you

want in a box." And he goes, "We've had

all these parts for the last 30 years."

That they were cheap. He goes, "The the

intelligence part, the brain would cost

20 or $30,000 just for this little robot

arm." He goes, "Now it's like 2 cents."

>> Yeah.

>> And he say, "So you're seeing this huge

explosion in robotics." I don't think

people understand what's coming.

>> No. And going to San Francisco is

eyeopening on two levels. Number one is

like a quarter to a third of the cars on

the road don't have drivers.

>> Yeah.

>> And just visually seeing that is so

striking.

>> Um but the other thing is talking to

some of the people involved. There is a

there are some people who are fairly

sensible about it, fairly responsible

among the founders, although they will

still say and I think they're right that

like if we don't do this, China will and

so we've got to do this. But there's

also a lot and I I'm sure you've

encountered there's a kind of you know

that famous Facebook mantra of move fast

and break things. There's a lot of that

going on in the AI space and so it's

going to be hugely impactful. I don't

claim to know the the all the little

details of how that will play out other

than to say it's going to be very

disruptive. Uh and disruptiveness has

happened throughout human history. It's

always produced a backlash. It's always

caused a lot of disease. But then

humanity has managed to recover. This is

different level and we will see how it

plays out. But yeah, of course it's

going to be and yeah, a world in which

millions of people in which millions of

people no longer have jobs and most of

them are disproportionately young people

who are more prone to extremism anyway.

Yeah, that's not a pretty picture

>> and one would assume that the wealth

will acrude to a few.

>> Yes,

>> in such a scenario.

>> And what's funny is I have said really

only half jokingly. I mean I wrote a

whole book about my opposition to

communism and socialism based on

experience.

In a world in which no one has a job,

I'm like 100% on board with communism.

>> Do you think that's the world we're

heading towards?

>> Possibly.

>> Yeah. But it makes sense. I mean, like

you, if you think about it from the

perspective of

50 people in the world, have all the

money in the world, and everyone else

has no job. I think a little bit of

wealth redistribution is going to be

unavoidable in that situation. And it

can either happen voluntarily or it's

going to happen at the end of bayonets.

That's the choice.

>> When you say communism would be the only

choice in such a scenario, what what

does that mean?

>> Uh it means everybody gets paid for

existing,

right? Well, I mean, what else is there?

You're going to create fake jobs for

people. That's not going to work, right?

So if if all the wealth in the world is

going to be created by robots, a world

in which th the products of their labor

it only acrus to 50 people who had the

idea or did the work 20 years ago that's

not going to sustain itself. And so uh

it would be very very unwise of those

people to attempt to hold on to all that

wealth and it would not end well for

them in my opinion.

>> On a personal level, you know, this

disruption is going to happen in your

lifetime.

>> Yeah. Are you thinking much about it or

planning for it at all? Did has it

changed any of the decisions you you

make on a a day-to-day basis or

month-to-month basis?

>> Well, I'm very fortunate that I am

probably a little harder to replace with

a robot just because people don't really

want to hear robots opinions. I would

imagine we might get to that point, but

I think it's unlikely. So on my my own

level, I'm probably, you know, the time

scale I'm working to in the next 10

years, I imagine I'll I'll get myself to

a point where I'm going to be reasonably

comfortable no matter what happens. For

my children,

>> that was us cutting forward 10 years and

watching.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Just totally me just

unemployed long.

I can't believe what happened. For my

children, it's a very different

conversation. Uh so a lot of people are

like, well, you know, what should I

teach my children? And people are, oh

yeah, they should be a plumber. I don't

think you're going to need plumbers 15,

20 years from now either. So I I

honestly don't know what that future

looks like. And in many ways, that's

always been the reality of life for most

people. We are living through one of

those great transitions in human history

in which all you can do is equip your

children with the basic skill sets of

life as opposed to what might have been

done 20 30 years ago where like you you

get you go to school to develop a skill

to go to university to build a career.

Now, you're going to have to show a lot

of flex in this modern world. So, you're

going to have to be personable. You're

going to have to be resourceful. You're

going to have to be creative. You're

going to have to go have a a positive

go-getter mindset. You're going to have

to have those basics nailed down as

opposed to here's the career that you've

been predetermined to have, unless of

course you go into AI and robotics, in

which case you probably won't be

replaced for at least 5 years.

>> I think there's something to the fact

that there's an angst with AI. And when

you know people listen to podcasts all

the time. Yeah.

>> They everyone who has a job in a big

corporate environment now is being told

by their CEO that you better learn AI or

it's going to replace you. So we're

living in this moment of

>> there's like aliens coming over the

horizon and we've spotted them.

>> They're not quite here yet,

>> but it's it's like saying to the general

public, look, there's aliens coming and

they're coming for your job and

everything you value. That angst in and

of itself I think can drive people

towards ideas like socialism

understandably.

>> Yeah.

>> Because you you know it's it's a it's a

deep existential angst

>> and also a lot of the AI people not all

of them a lot of them are being but a

lot of them are being deeply

irresponsible and very unwise with their

messaging. What? Last time I was in New

York, I was walking through Time Square.

There was this giant billboard which

said, it was the name of the company,

which I don't remember. Stop hiring

humans. The age of the AI employees

here. I'm going, have you really thought

about this? Have you thought about

putting your company's name on this

poster? Do you understand the impact

this is going to have on a normal person

looking at that? Um, but they are. So,

the thing is with AI is the the positive

upsides of it are limitless. Literally

limitless. And so a lot of the people

who are in that space, that's what they

focus on. And they're like, we can solve

cancer. We can solve medical problems.

We can have AI that's better than any

physicist that can ever that's ever

lived that can give us the, you know,

the eternal engine or or or whatever. We

don't need energy anymore. Like there

are all sorts of crazy things that come

out of AI that are potentially

beneficial. And that is exciting. But

the angst that you talk about, I think,

is there. And I think it's also quite

rational. You just reminded me of a

video that came out this week from Elon

where he says this. I'll play it for

you. I think it's this one's. So, he's

talking about Elon's talking about the

robots that are about to be released

from Tesla, which are called Optimus.

And someone's asking him

>> how good they will be at surgery.

>> What do you think Optimus will be a

better surgeon than the best surgeons?

How long for that?

>> Three years.

>> Three years. Okay. Yeah. And by the way,

I say three years.

at scale.

>> Yes.

>> And there will be more probably more

Optimus robots that are great surgeons

than there are

>> all surgeons on Earth.

>> And the cost of that but that's an

important statement in 3 years time.

>> Yeah.

>> Um because medicine I mean absolutely

if it's four or five years who cares.

It's still an

>> extreme precision.

>> Yes.

>> Three years. Um,

yes. Better than any any probably I'd

say if you like put a little margin on

it. Better than any human in four years

>> who's in plastic surgery. 5 years is not

even close.

>> I think your point was medicine is going

to be effectively free. The best

medicine in the world.

>> Everyone will have access to medical

care that is better than what the

president receives right now.

>> So don't go to medical school.

>> Yes. Pointless.

>> Yeah. pointless going to medical school.

>> Look, he knows way more about this than

I do. I would also say that I think both

the incentive structure and his personal

temperament lean towards a kind of

optimism and there's a sales dimension

to this as well, obviously, cuz he's one

of the people producing the stuff. So,

his optimism may be a product of the

incentive structure that he's subject

to. But even if it's not 3 years,

I I don't think it's more than 10 years.

So, that's the time frame. And given how

long it takes to train to become a

doctor. Yeah.

>> I want to talk about the situation in

Iran.

>> We're seeing what one might call an

uprising at the moment where protesters

are are on the street in a country where

it is very very dangerous um and also

very brave to protest against the

leadership there. Where does this fit in

the broader context? What what the hell

is going on?

>> I am not an expert on Iran, but

effectively what's happening in Iran is

an attempted counterrevolution. So they

had a revolution in 1979. They overthrew

the ruler, the sha, and they replaced

him with a an Islamic dictatorship,

which is what you've had since 1979. And

the people of Iran have attempted to

overthrow this Islamic dictatorship

repeatedly. They've always been brutally

suppressed. And that's basically what's

happening now again.

>> And is does this fit somewhere into the

broader conflict of geopolitics in the

US, the multipol? Well, only in the

sense that you can see that even

President Trump, who's talked quite

brashly about what he might do if this

sort of gets out of hand, is still not

as we speak doing anything about it on a

on a kind of kinetic level. And that's

partly for the reasons that we talked

about earlier, which is the United

States is deeply deeply the United

States public are deeply deeply

skeptical about foreign interventions.

And so the idea that we that we the West

would support a a regime change in Iran

is not something that you can sell to

the American people right now. And so he

has to be he has to be much more careful

about what he might otherwise have done

in Iran. And so because of that, the

leaders of Iran probably feel like

they're in a better position to crack

down and survive versus what might have

happened in the past. I mean, Trump's

been quite vocal in what he might do in

his threats. He said that the US would

come to the protesters rescue, that we

are locked, loaded, and ready to go. He

announced that countries doing business

with Iran, faced a 25% tariff on their

trade with the US, ramping up pressure.

>> And he called for Iranians to keep

protesting.

Um, and then more recently, he said,

"I've canceled all meetings with Iranian

officials until the senseless killing of

protest stops. Help is on the way. Mag

mega,

>> make Iran great." Well, Iran, you know,

I mean, one thing that should be said is

the Persian Empire and the Persian

people are a great people with a very

rich history. And what's interesting is

in attempting to over I don't know if

you've ever seen pictures from Tehran

from before 1979, it's like women

walking around in miniskirts and and all

the rest of it. So, they have a very

long history of freedom in a way that we

don't tend to think of the Middle East

as having today. uh and that's that's

that's an example of how it's perhaps

different from other parts of the Middle

East. But you can see the the reluctance

to actually do anything about it because

the question is well let's say you do

remove the current leadership. Let's say

you bring back the son of the former

Shah Resa he oversees a transition to

some kind of democratic thing. Who is

there protecting that process from being

disrupted by the remnants of the old

regime? Who's going to do that? Is there

American boots on the ground? Cuz

there's literally zero appetite for that

in America. That's the challenge that I

think he faces, which is probably why he

hasn't done anything.

>> And how do you think the story plays

out?

>> No idea, mate. No idea. I I I have no

idea what what's going to happen here. I

fear unfortunately that what the regime

will do I'm not saying this is what will

happen but my fear is and it's one of

the reasons that I am

I sympathize so deeply with the Iranian

people that are rising up against the

oppression but I am wary of encouraging

encouraging them unless we are willing

to back them fully. This is exactly in

in a way that what happened with

Ukraine. There was a lot of rah rah

rahrh and there was not nearly enough

support to actually help them defend

their country. My fear is there will be

a lot of rah. We support the Ukrainian

people. We stand with them blah blah,

you know, blah blah blah. But ultimately

the regime will kill more of them and it

will kill enough of them for this to go

away. That's my worry.

>> Well, I hope the world does come to the

support of the Iranians. I really do.

>> Me too. because for all the reasons

you've said, beautiful country,

beautiful people, and um it's it's

horrific to see what's going on. There's

varying estimates. It's unfortunately we

we don't have accurate numbers because I

mean the internet is down and it's

always hard to get accurate numbers in

the situation, but I've heard estimates

ranging from 2,000 to 18,000 people

being killed. And uh it's inconceivable

I think for Westerners like us to

understand what it is to live in an

environment like that.

>> Which is why they're protesting as

courageously as they are. I just hope

that the geopolitical realities allow us

to support them in the way that we keep

saying we would. Do you see what I'm

saying?

>> Yeah, of course. Yeah. And this is Yeah.

>> And this is my big worry. We have we

have done a lot of this. We stand with

you. We support you. And then when push

comes to shove,

the realities of the thing come into

play and suddenly we're a lot more

careful about it.

>> Trump seems to walk the walk more so

than others.

>> Absolutely.

>> And he seems to It's funny because I

think it was Biden that said to China

that if they took back Taiwan, he would

get involved.

>> Trump didn't say that.

>> He's kind of I was looking at some

quotes from Trump and it seems like he's

basically like, well, if they take

Taiwan back, I ain't going to get

involved. But in other instances where

he warns countries that he'll bomb them

or take action. Yeah.

>> Like Venezuela or like Iran with the the

nuclear weapon situation, he does seem

to follow through.

>> And I Marco Rubio and Hegathth were

saying the other day in the interview I

was watching that listen when when is

the world going to learn? If Trump says

something, he's going to do it. And you

know him saying that we will come to

your rescue.

>> Well, hopefully they come through on

that, but also hopefully they have a

plan for what happens after that.

>> Yeah. And this is the mistake we've

obviously made in a number of countries,

Libya, Iraq,

Afghanistan,

Syria, which is now basically headed by

a jihadi.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Where we go, oh yeah, we've got

to remove this terrible guy and yeah,

he's terrible guy and we're right to

remove him. But then what do you end up

with afterwards? So if they do help the

Iranian people, which I hope they have,

they have the plans to do, then I hope

they have a plan for what happens after

that and how you get Iran to a position

where the people of Iran get to choose

their own leaders and those leaders stay

in power and those leaders are the sorts

of people that you might want to see in

charge because you know this happened in

Egypt. They they they have the Arab

Spring. They overthrow the evil dictator

and what do they do? they elect the

Muslim Brotherhood and then the people

go no no no no we need the military back

etc. So these are not easy problems to

solve which is why people are being

careful about it. So I hope they have a

a plan and a solution for what comes

after if they in fact act

>> and Trump's also talking about taking

Greenland

>> which is the first time I heard him say

that I thought he was joking. I thought

this is just a funny Trump, you know,

when he was talking about taking Canada.

>> Yeah,

>> it was he was calling it the great state

of Canada. I thought this was him just

joking. But in more recent times, in the

last week, I heard him say in an

interview, "We're going to do it the

easy way or the hard way." Words to that

effect.

>> What's going on?

>> Well, we talked about they're trying to

protect their sphere of influence in

North America and South America, and

they they want they want they want to

have the military bases there that they

want to have there. They want to have

the resources and access to that.

>> Are we returning to empires?

>> We never left empire. This is the This

is the great thing that we we've been

living in the dream world. We've been

pretending these things haven't been

going on the entire time. They have. The

world's always been like this.

There was a brief moment after World War

II when it wasn't like this because we

were fighting the Soviet Union. And the

Soviet Union, the battle in the Cold War

was very similar. There was proxy wars

all over the place between those two

great powers. Right now there's two

different great powers and a third

smaller power in Russia and India is

rising as well who are all trying to

make their moves and all Trump is doing

is saying well we are not going to play

by the fake rules anymore that no one

else is playing by anyway.

>> And so is Trump endeavoring to take that

part of the world take control of that?

>> Take control. Yeah. In many ways, it's

what every great power seeks to do is to

control its neighbors so that they don't

have foreign influence in their backyard

so that they have the strategic

advantage in that area. Um, it's the way

of the world.

>> I mean, I didn't hear this rhetoric for

the other 30 years of my life.

>> Yeah.

>> As explicitly.

>> Yeah.

>> And when you say multipolar,

what are the polls?

>> Well, it's the US and China.

>> Yeah. are the two Russia wants to claim

it's a third one and then you will see

the rise of India I think over time as

well India is a lot more sensible about

these things about the way that they're

developing

>> and is is the multipolar world a good

thing or a bad thing or is it just

indifferent

>> for whom

>> for let's do people living in Europe

>> I think it's likely to be a very bad

thing for people living in Europe

because we become less powerful less

wealthy less relevant

uh for the reasons we've already

discussed. We could change it if we

wanted to.

>> How

>> we could uh abandon our suicidal

economic policy. So we could have

economic growth again which would

increase our share of GDP. We would make

our people more prosperous. It would

help to quell domestic unease.

>> Part of which has been created by mass

immigration. People care about that more

because they're poorer. Right? If we

were growing, then everybody's a little

bit happier. It's like you move to LA,

the sunshine is nice, everybody's a

little bit happier. When you're getting

richer, everybody's a little bit

happier. So, that's one of them. The

second one is you've got to recognize

that the huge waves of immigration we

have had uh have brought some positives.

They've also brought a tremendous amount

of cultural instability. People feel

like their country is changing. They

never voted for it. In fact, they

repeatedly voted against it. So you have

to arrest the sense that our country is

ceasing to be one place and instead

we're becoming different communities,

right? The this community, the that

community. Instead, we've got to go to a

place where we're all British or we're

all American or we're all French or

whatever it is, we've got to integrate

fully the people have already arrived.

And to do that, you have to make sure

you don't continue to have the same

scale of inflows that we've had. You

have to deal with illegal immigration.

You have to stop that from happening

because that that really affects how

people feel about sense of fairness and

a commitment and loyalty to their

country. One of the reasons if you talk

to young people they they'll say they're

disillusioned, they won't fight for

their country, etc. is they feel like

well their country doesn't care about

them. It's bringing in people that it's

paying to have a house and and so all

the rest of it while they can't get on

the property letter. So you've got to

deal with immigration as a whole

package. Then you have to rebuild your

military. You have to rebuild your

military capacity.

And then you have to understand the new

world in which we live and really pick a

team and say which alliances are we

going to nurture. In my opinion the best

thing Britain could do is to nurture the

alliance with the United States to make

itself relevant within that alliance for

in the ways that I've already talked

about and then join forces with the US

and recognize that we have very similar

interests in a lot of things and if we

were prepared to act like it then we'd

be in a much better place.

And also you got to have more kids.

A lot more kids.

>> Why?

>> Uh if you if you look at forget about

the moral kind of sensibilities and

politically correct stuff about it, the

more people you have, the more powerful

you are comparative all other things

being equal, right? A country with more

people is more powerful than a country

with fewer people. Just if everything

else is the same. But more importantly,

our dem we're in a demographic death

spiral. And this is one of the reasons

we have had mass immigration.

Politicians won't tell you the honest

truth of it. But the real reason is they

keep bringing in hundreds of thousands

of people is if they don't, we will see

the reality which is that we're getting

poorer all the time. But if they bring

in a mass of people from outside, they

can say that the economy is growing not

because it's growing on a per capita

basis, but because you've simply added

more people to the population. And if if

if this is seems abstract, think about

it like this. Let's say you have

uh you have a family, you, your

girlfriend, and you've got two kids,

right? And your total household income

is £100,000 a year, let's say, for the

four of you. Now, let's say you bring in

your in-laws. They live in the same

house, right? They don't earn anything.

Let's say they own 10 grand a year each.

So now your household income is

£120,000. So you've got richer, haven't

you?

>> No, you've now got six people to spread

that money over and now you're per

person a lot poorer. That's what British

and European leaders have done so that

they could pretend that we're not

getting poorer all the time. That's why

they've done it. Uh this is what they

say. We need people to come and do the

jobs. That that's what they mean. They

mean we need to bring in more people so

we can tell you the economy has grown by

0.3%.

While you've been getting poorer. So

you've got to address the economic side

of this as well of the demographic

thing. And the third thing actually is

societies with lots of kids kids are

just much more dynamic than societies

without them. You know, you get very

stale when you've got too many older

people. You need that young energy, that

young blood. You need young people. You

need children around. Uh and then they

will of course be the next generation to

drive things forward. So you we've got

to have loads more loads more kids.

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And what do you think of Kier Starmmer

and the way he's leading the UK?

>> It's very tempting always. We come back

to the Biden Trump left right thing to

put the blame on one specific person. I

don't think he's doing a good job for

the reasons that I told you. We we've

got the highest tax burden in peace time

history. So, he's driving business

through the floor. I know that you will

we you and I have never spoken about

this, but I bet you could name 50 people

off the top of your head who've left the

UK to go to other places, who run

businesses. You're nodding, right, for

people listening. But why is that

happening? because the business climate

here is not good.

>> Mhm.

>> The taxes here are very high and also

the quality of life here is declined.

>> And generally, you know, I think maybe

the first point you said about climate,

there's a pessimism.

>> Yes.

>> Why is that? Why is that?

>> It's self-fulfilling.

>> Yes.

>> It's like a self-fulfilling pessimism

where founders who are in my portfolio

that I've invested in will come to me

and say, "Hi, you know, we've just sold

uh 10% of the business for 20 million."

Yeah.

>> And then the next sentence will be their

escape plan.

>> Mhm.

>> And that didn't used to happen even 10

years ago.

>> And that's because of government policy.

That's the only way that this happens.

Right? Because if the government a keeps

taxing you up to your eyeballs and b

keeps telling you that you are evil,

which is what it does, right? If you're

rich in Britain, you are evil. That's

the that's the algorithm we have. And we

treat successful people. We immediately

assume that they're privileged people.

Well, my pet theory is that this goes

back to the land of gentry. The idea

that in this country if you were rich,

there was a time when that was almost

certainly because your dad was rich or

at least people thought that. And so

this sense that if someone is successful

economically, financially, it's probably

because they've benefited from some sort

of illotten privilege. It permeates

everything. In America, people don't

feel that way. They go, "You've been

successful because you've worked really

hard and you've had a great idea. I'd

love to learn from you. I'd love to be

more like you." In Britain, we go,

"You've been successful. You know, we

got to tax you." So, if the government

keeps taxing you and then telling you

you're a bad person while you pay the

overwhelming share of the taxes in the

country, it's not a great place to be.

You know, if I come home tonight and my

wife says, "Yeah, you earn all the

money, but you're a dick and I don't

like you." And

after a while, you sort of go, well, if

this isn't working, I'll go somewhere

where I'm wanted. Do you know what I

mean? And I think that's what's

happening to a lot of the most driven,

the most talented, the most successful,

the most creative people. And so, we're

driving out the business, we're driving

out the entrepreneurs. Then on the

industrial side of it, we talked about

it before, net zero basically means that

any energyintensive business is

completely unviable in Britain. And I'm

sure you've seen this with AI and lots

of other things. you go to where you can

do your business. Then on top of that

you add regulation particularly in in

Europe which restricts your ability to

do things again. So there's this um you

and it didn't didn't have to be like

that. It wasn't like that in the '9s in

this country, right? There was a

positive go-getter business climate and

you can do that again. You just have to

have a leader who is willing to do that.

And SAM is the opposite of that. And

part of the reason is that they simply

can't do anything about the fact that we

are spending huge amounts of money uh

keeping lots and lots of people trapped

in welfare against in many ways against

their interest and actually in some ways

I would argue even against their will

because and I've made this point before

if you said to you're a very driven

person. I'm a very driven person, but

when I was in my early 20s, if you'd

said to me, "You don't need to work."

You know, I know you're feeling a bit

depressed, as I was in my early 20s. I

wasn't sure what I was doing with life.

You're a bit depressed. You're a bit

anxious. I remember going to apply for a

job and just sweating buckets cuz I was

so anxious. Right. Well, you've got

anxiety, you've got depression, you

can't work. We'll give you 20 grand a

year and you can just, you know, we'll

write you off and you just sit home,

play on the PlayStation, smoke weed. I

would have taken that. Most people would

have taken that. And that's the position

we have put a lot of our young people

in. Uh we just ride them off. We give

them benefits and we forget about them.

And that welfare bill has become a

unsustainable, but it's also uncutable.

They try the Labor government tried to

cut it. They tried to reform welfare and

their own backbenches revolted and they

caved and they said, "No, no, no. We're

not going to reform welfare. We're going

to tax the rich because the rich, you

know, don't pay enough tax." when in the

reality I think the top you maybe look

this up 10 the top 10% of taxpayers in

this country pay

I think more than half of all the tax

probably significantly more than half of

all the tax but look it up I think the

top 1% pay 33% of all the tax fact check

me on this

>> okay so the top 10% of taxpayers

pay 60% of all income tax

>> yeah and also um what's the other one

the capital gains as well. If you look

up capital gains, it's basically the

same. So if you put those two together,

which is basically what we pay on

earning, the top 10% pay 60% of it. So

what happens when you chase out those

people, which is what we're doing. What

happens to your tax base? You get less

and less tax. That means you have to tax

the people who haven't left yet more and

more in order to pay people who are not

who are net consumers of tax revenues.

According to HM revenue and customs data

in the UK, the top 1% pay 30% of all

income.

>> I said 33. So 30. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So what happens when you say that

1% are evil and they must pay more? 1%

pay 30% of all the tax.

>> It's funny. I'm quite a torn person on

this subject because I I represent kind

of two sides of this argument. The first

side of the argument, I just have this

sort of visceral memory of being sat at

my desk in Mosside with these like baiff

letters on my right, this smashed up

laptop on my left, knowing that I had no

way of eating that day and thinking,

"Oh, I you know what I need to do?

There's this thing called jobsekers

allowance."

>> And I was like messing with the do I

join it cuz like right now I'm like

scavenging for pound coins to see if I

can buy some Chinese from Young Dar

Takeaway. And I printed off the forms

and the forms were there in front of me

on the desk to apply for jobsekers

allowance when I was maybe 18 years old,

roughly that age, 18, 19 years old. And

because I got so close, I have the huge

amount of empathy for people that

>> get to that point. And then on the other

side, because I'm now in a different

world

>> and I I'm around entrepreneurs so much

who are

>> so so frequently telling me their escape

plan from the UK that I feel the need to

let the average the the normal person

that's listening to this podcast that

maybe doesn't have the access to

entrepreneurs or the inside

conversations that that I have with

entrepreneurs know that when people come

on the show and tell you that rich

people will leave, it is my experience

that rich people leave and like because

there there is an argument ongoing

argument no they won't leave and there

people point out different things no

they they leave they leave I mean we

just saw Revolute which is one of the

the most successful companies emerge

from the UK in recent times it's

probably going to be worth a hundred

billion the founder left

>> I think it's Dubai or somewhere it's

gone to

>> and people say well Britain can't

compete with a zero tax environment we

don't need to compete with a zero tax

environment people want to live in

Britain still you just have to stop

clobbering over them over the head and

calling them evil.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, look, you know, I can give you a

sob story as well. Like when I was at

university, I had no I had to stop

university cuz I couldn't pay for it. I

slept on the street in a park. Blah blah

blah blah blah. Empathy for days for

people who are in that position. And

there are lots of people, by the way,

and this is important to say, Stephen,

who are not in your position. They're

not super talented. They're not

predisposed to success. They're not as

hardworking and motivated as you for

whatever reason. And many people are

disabled. Many people have all sorts of

other issues. And of course, we've got

to help them. But what we have done is

trapped now hundreds of thousands, if

not millions of people who could be

working and have meaning and purpose in

their life on welfare and we're not

helping them get off it because it's

much easier to give them a payout and

forget about them. That's what's

happening. And so, you know, I've had

these views since before I was in any

way successful. I just looked at what

works. And when we talk about rich

people leaving, the thing is I don't

care about rich people leaving. People

who have a lot of money leaving is not

really an issue for me. What's an issue

for me is people who are going to create

wealth leaving. So on that point, the

founder of Revolute leaving the UK, Nick

Strinsky, I think his name is, um,

estimates say, credible reports say that

because he's leaving, there's going to

be a3 billion pound potential loss of

capital gains tax that he would have

paid had he not absconded to the UAE.

Now to put this into more stark terms

what that means. I then um did some

research and I was looking at how many

people it would take to pay that 3

billion. How many average taxpayers it

would take to pay that 3 billion that we

that we lose by him leaving.

>> And it says roughly £450,000

average UK taxpayers because the average

UK taxpayer pays about £7,000 to £7,500

a year. So very simple math 3 billion

divided by 7,000 equals 430,000 people.

Mhm.

>> So in plain English, that billionaire's

potential tax bill is equal to the

entire income tax of a midsized UK city

for one year because that person decided

to leave.

>> Congratulations, you tax the rich.

Congratulations. Now half a million

people have to pay more tax.

Well done.

That's what we're doing. And because

it's become a moral argument because the

rich are evil

in our mentality,

people don't hear this point at all. It

just totally goes over their head. They

go, you know, but but the rich are evil,

they must pay more tax. And you go, even

if I agreed with you, it still doesn't

work in practice.

So if something is not working in

practice, why would you keep doing it?

I think as well, you know, one of your

other points was around what the UK has

to offer them. And I think if the UK was

really growth focused and you know, the

energy point you made, energy was

cheaper here, then

>> that equation that these founders are

making whether to stay or to leave would

tilt a little bit further in our

direction. So, it's super it's so

difficult.

>> And no, no disrespect to Dubai, but most

people don't want to have to live in

Dubai.

I think the UK is a lovely honestly I

mean

>> that's what I mean right and I say this

with there's lots of great appealing

things about Dubai but if you dealt with

prime in the UK and you had a growth

focused mindset you had a tax climate

that encouraged people to start

businesses and employ people we wouldn't

be losing these people and we shouldn't

be losing these people they are they are

the people who will create the wealth of

the future and they should be doing it

here they should be founding and keeping

their businesses here and if you did

that then you start to turn the whole

thing we've been talking about around

because ultimately everything is about

economics in in this sense the military

is about economics.

It's about do you have the resources to

have a strong military? We don't. So we

don't.

>> So which leader do we need?

>> Again, I don't like getting into the

personality side of things. But what you

need is someone who understands how the

economy works.

>> Why don't you like getting into the

personality side of things?

>> Because what happens when if I give you

a name?

>> Yeah.

>> Then immediately people say, "Oh, he's

one of them."

>> Okay.

>> Right. I am not one of them of any them.

I'm just telling you what the policies

are that I think would work for our

country. If Kia Starama tomorrow came on

your show and said, "Stephen, I'm here

to announce a great British

transformation. We're going to cut

business taxes. We're going to get rid

of net zero. We're going to make sure

that we have the cheapest energy in the

world for our businesses to grow and

thrive. We're going to have a strong,

capable military. And by the way, I've

just hired 50,000 new police officers to

deal with all the ridiculous amounts of

street crime we've got in London. Sign

me up. I'm all K star ride or die,

right? But that's probably not going to

happen. That's probably not going to

happen with any of the other leaders

that we have. So, I'm here telling you

what I think the right policies are. And

if there's a leader who advocates for

those policies, that's the sort of

leader that I will support.

>> Only 18% of Britons view Karma