What's the deal? Can people reverse the

graying of their hair by reducing their

stress? Can people accelerate the

graying of their hair by stressing more?

Likely both are true. Yes.

>> Okay. And I think what we discovered is

that hair graying, at least temporarily,

is reversible. This was surprising

because it goes against this notion that

aging is a linear, you know, uh, process

that just happens over time no matter

what you do. And here we should know

actually a a hallmark of aging which is

you know depigmentation losing color and

your beard and your hair um is something

that happens to almost everyone but at

different you know stages of life and

and so on and then on the same person

and the reason we got into this was that

this felt like the perfect experiment.

Every hair has the same genome. They're

all genetically identical twins, right?

And they're all exposed to the same

exercise regime, the same food, the same

stress levels. Uh but yet some hairs go

gray when you're like late 30s and then

some hairs go gray when you're like in

your 80s. What the hell's happening? If

we could figure this out, maybe we can

understand why different people age at

different rates.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh because it's very clear that there's

no more than 10% of how long you live

that genetically driven. Like the best

studies put this at around 7%. 7% of of

longevity is genetically inherited maybe

and then about 90% is not. Welcome to

the Huberman Lab podcast where we

discuss science and science-based tools

[music] for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Martin Peard. Dr. Martin

Peard is a professor of behavioral

medicine at Columbia University. He is

also a leading expert on how your daily

behaviors and your mode of thinking,

meaning your psychology, change energy

production in your cells and can

accelerate or reverse biological aging.

Most people have heard of mitochondria

as the energy producing organels within

their cells. And of course, that's

linked to what we call metabolism and

metabolic health. And of course, most

people understand that eating properly,

exercising, and sleep are critical for

metabolic health. But it turns out

that's only part of the story. As Dr.

Bicard explains, "Mychondria don't just

make energy. They act as sort of

antennas to link your psychological

experiences to your organ health, your

rate of aging, and your sense of vigor,

meaning your mental and physical

readiness." He explains that how well

your mitochondria work in different

organs and brain areas reflects what

specific forms of exercise you do, as

well as how you think and how you manage

stress. Today he explains the things

that you can do to enhance mitochondrial

function that go beyond the typical get

sleep, eat right, and exercise advice.

His lab has shown that aging is not

linear. It's not just a progression from

youth to death where your mitochondria

decline over that time. At different

ages and stages, mitochondrial health

drops off like a cliff. But there are

critical things that you can do in terms

of how you eat, your mindset, and

exercise that can offset those changes.

His lab also famously showed that

graying of hair is indeed related to

stress and is also fortunately

reversible. By the end of today's

episode, you will not only have had a

master class in mitochondria, he

explains mitochondria with immense

clarity so that you really will

understand how these incredible organels

work to produce energy and as these sort

of antennas to direct that energy from

outside you and by the things you do.

And by the end of today's episode,

you'll also have a lot of actionable

items that you can apply toward your

health and to offset aging. Before we

begin, I'd like to emphasize that this

podcast is separate from my teaching and

research roles at Stanford. It is

however part of my desire and effort to

bring zero cost to consumer information

about science and science related tools

to the general public. In keeping with

that theme, today's episode does include

sponsors. And now for my discussion with

Dr. Martin Peard. Dr. Martin Peard,

welcome.

>> Thank you. Your work is so relevant

nowadays. I suppose it was relevant

always, but these days we hear so much

about mitochondria. Most people have

perhaps heard of mitochondria, they

think the powerhouse of the cell, but

you're going to tell us that it's a lot

more than that. And I should say right

off the bat that if people think that

perhaps a discussion about these little

organels we call mitochondria is not for

them, keep in mind Martin's laboratory

was the one that discovered that you can

indeed reverse the graying of your hair.

Uh that graying of hair is not a

prerequisite uh of aging. There's some

other ways that hair grays. So we'll get

to that later. Super interesting work. I

have a million questions for you. Let's

start off with the most important and

most basic question which is what is

this thing that we call energy? There's

electrical energy. We know the sun gives

us energy etc. But when we're talking

about the energy of life

>> physical and mental vigor, the feeling

that we want to do something as opposed

to have to force ourselves to do it.

What is this at the organism and

cellular level? I mean even physicists

don't agree on what energy is and

there's been debates you know Richard

Fineman who was like this amazing

science communicator physicist said like

we don't even know what energy is and

what's the best way to define it because

there are all of these forms thermal

energy heat right energy electromagnetic

uh kinetic energy movement speed right

uh potential energy so uh energy kind of

manifests in all of these different ways

so in in a nutshell I think the best

definition I've I've heard heard uh from

my wife Nosha is uh who's a biohysicist

energy is the potential for change

>> right so and that applies to any kind of

form any form of energy you can think

about it's the potential for change for

changing something in the system and

that's uh I think an accurate

description of you know thermal energy

if something is frozen solid there's no

you know potential for for moving

something we need to be at 37 7 Celsius,

right? The human body it gives us the

potential to move and muscles to

contract and you know our biology to to

to function. So this is just one example

where there's like a sweet spot of

energy or there needs to be some thermal

energy. You need to be a little warm to

be alive.

>> Um uh so the potential for change and

then it manifests in all these beautiful

ways. Uh and it's something that flows.

You know when a key property of of

energy is something that has the ability

to flow and to transform. So you can

never create nor destroy energy, right?

That's like a fundamental law of

thermodynamics. But energy always

transforms. So you can transform heat,

right, into motion, right? And like the

the steam engine, for example, through

pressure, another form of energy. Uh or

you can transform electricity into, you

know, a picture on your screen. That's,

you know, what your computer does. uh

transforms your raw energy electricity

into you know a picture a sound or um so

that's what happens all around us. It's

all you know energy moving transforming

energy from the sun this outer you know

reactor in you know nuclear reactor in

outer space beams energy at us and then

what plants do is they take that energy

transform you know light into

biochemistry and then you get energy

which used to be immaterial that gets

crystallized into biochemistry and then

we human beings animals eat that biochem

cold energy and then the inner

mitochondria that energy gets

transformed Right? Again, the potential

for change and then the that biochemical

energy gets transformed into an

electrochemical gradient. Like you

charge your little batteries, your

mitochondria and then that's another

form of energy which again is a

potential for change. And then you can

make ATP with this. You can make

reactive oxygen species, you can make

hormones, you can you know all of the

beautiful things that mitochondria do.

So energy is that potential for change

that has all of these different forms

that continuously transforms.

>> Amazing. Or you can use your brain to

create technologies that create other

forms of energy or excuse me transform

other forms of energy.

>> Exactly. uh and your question it was

about you know the the human energy

vitality like you know the the the

energy to do something and that's I

think another manifestation of energy as

energy flows through this thing that we

call biology or you know the the human

body uh it kind of moves us into into

action right and uh we know from first

principles that the the the basis for

human experiences you know the mind and

our ability to be inspired to to feel

you positive things or to feel negative

things depends on the flow of energy,

right? That the difference between a

thinking, feeling, conscious person

having experiences and uh being able to

go to the gym and lift and like or and a

cadaavver is really it's not the size of

the muscles, the number of cells, the

nucleus, the genes, the mitochondria.

It's none of this. The difference

between a living person and a cadaavver

is the flow of energy. When you die, all

of the structure, you know, the physical

stuff remains as is, but energy stops

flowing. If you stop breathing, if your

heart stops beating, energy flow stops

and then energy transformation,

therefore it can't happen. And then

that's what we call death and then the

mind dies, right? Like you you don't

have an experience anymore. And um so

the flow of energy I think has to be the

the the basis not only of life which we

know you know to be to be correct but

also the basis of human experiences and

what we experience as energy. We think

about energy. We we crave energy and we

know and the way we talk about you know

this person is really good energy or

this thing you know really energize me

or you know had this great idea your

friend was telling you I had this great

idea I'm buzzing man like what's that

buzzing thing it is a real experience

and uh most people have you know had the

the experience of feeling really excited

about something right a new idea a new

person and then you know you have

butterflies and you know their emotions

going on in your body. I suspect

emotions the best kind of first

principles definition of an emotion is

energy and motion

>> and uh we can talk more about like uh

what we experience in terms of energy

but I think it's pretty clear we don't

experience energy per se like you don't

have a direct experience

um an empirical uh you know access to

how much fat you have in your body like

there are hormones that communicate and

you know how much energy is in your

liver and or how much you heat uh is is

in you know something what you feel what

you experience is a change in energy

when energy moves you feel that right

and I suspect that's what emotions are

there's like a movement of energy

something shifts and then you experience

that a bit like uh uh like if you're in

a car and your eyes are closed and

you're going constant speed right

kinetic energy you have no way of

knowing from first experience if you're

going at 100 miles an hour 10 miles an

hour or if you're standing still. These

are very different energy, energetic

quantities, right? The kinetic energy.

Uh what you do feel is acceleration and

deceleration. You feel the delta in

energy,

>> right? The change in energy,

acceleration, deceleration. Same with

temperature. Like if you touch something

and it's body temperature, right? The

same temperature as your hand, you don't

feel it. You don't feel, you know, room

temperature, you know, or body

temperature. What you feel if some you

touch something that's cooler than your

body, what you're feeling is not the

temperature of what you're touching.

You're feeling your temperature leaving

your body, right? It's the heat of your

body leaving through conduction towards

this. And then that's what you

experience. And if you touch something

that's hot, you're not feeling in the

energy of the thing, you're feeling the

heat that's coming into your body. So

you feel that delta and that change. And

that's how human perception also uh

works. like you we're able to see colors

to see light. You've studied the the

visual system a lot. You know,

fundamentally the ability of the eye of

the retina to perceive, right? To to

sense light uh requires that you bring

photons, right, that are beaming from

whatever source, short, long wavelength.

Uh you need to bring them into

stillness, right? You need to resist the

flow of of of photons. And then so you

change the speed of the photon and it's

that change in energy. you get kinetic

energy, speed of light [laughter]

and then boom that when that that the

the delta v the the change in in in

speed uh happens this is when you can

you can trigger you a calcium release

and then molecular series of events and

action potential and so in order to see

you need to resist the flow of photons

right you need to uh resist you know

energy movement and then that triggers a

transformation same for hearing right we

here and I hear your voice uh because my

eardrum resists the pressure waves that

you know you're producing. So your

energy is being channeled and projected

through through the air as sound waves,

another form of energy. And then I'm

feeling you right through your energy

that's carried through the air. And then

because my eardrum resists the the

pressure wave that you're producing and

then it's that resistance right and that

change that delta again in in speed by

resisting your the sound waves coming

from you by resisting your energy now I

can perceive them and then the little

osticles in the ear that transmit what

used to be pressure waves into now

mechanical motion and then into like

fluid into the inner ear and then the

cilia that move and then ions that come

in then eventually they get transformed

into electricity right so again it's one

form of energy pressure waves turn into

electricity and then the brain uses

electricity as a form of energy. There

can there are many right but that

electricity is just so amendable to

computation processing and integration.

So once you have this common energetic

language for sight for hearing for you

know uh touch and smell and and taste

then you can integrate that we perceive

energy uh transformation and change in

energy. We don't perceive energy, you

know, per se.

>> I'd like to take a quick break and

acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows

that are customized to your unique sleep

needs. Now, I've spoken many times

before on the Hubberman Lab podcast and

elsewhere about the fact that getting a

great night's sleep is the foundation of

mental health, physical health, and

performance. Now, the mattress you sleep

on makes a huge difference in terms of

the quality of sleep that you get each

night. how soft it is, how firm it is,

how breathable it is, the temperature,

all play into your comfort and needs to

be tailored to your unique sleep needs.

If you go to the Helix website, you'll

take a brief two-minute quiz and it will

ask you questions such as, do you tend

to sleep on your back, your side, or

your stomach? Maybe you don't know, but

it will also ask you, do you tend to run

hot or cold during the night or the

early part of the night, etc. Things of

that sort. Maybe you know the answers to

those questions, maybe you don't. But

either way, Helix will match you to the

ideal mattress for you. For me, that

turned out to be the Dusk mattress, Dus

SK. I started sleeping on the Dusk

mattress about 3 and a half years ago,

and it's been far and away the best

sleep that I've ever had. It's

absolutely clear to me that having a

mattress that's right for you does

improve one's sleep. If you'd like to

try Helix, you can go to

helixleep.com/huberman,

take that 2-minute sleep quiz, and Helix

will match you to a mattress that is

customized for you. Right now, Helix is

giving up to 20% off sitewide. Helix has

also teamed up with TrueMed, which

allows you to use your HSA FSA dollars

to shop Helix's award-winning

mattresses. Again, that's

helix.com/huberman

to get up to 20% off. Today's episode is

also brought to us by Lingo. Glucose is

a key player in how our body functions,

not just in the long term, but in every

moment of our lives. That's because it

is the major fuel for our cells,

especially our brain cells. Glucose

directly impacts our brain function,

mood, and energy levels. and it may even

affect our levels of tenacity and

willpower. This is why I use the

continuous glucose monitor from Lingo. I

absolutely love it and I'm thrilled to

have them as a sponsor of the podcast.

Lingo helps me track my glucose in real

time to see how the foods I eat and the

actions I take impact my glucose. When

glucose in your body spikes or crashes,

your cognitive and physical performance

do too. In fact, large glucose peaks and

valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue,

irritability, and hunger. What you eat,

of course, plays a major role in your

glucose. Some foods cause sharp spikes

and big crashes and others do not. But

not everyone is the same in terms of how

they respond to particular foods. Seeing

your glucose in real time helps you

build eating and other habits that

support metabolic health, mental

clarity, and sustained energy. Lingo has

helped me to better understand what

foods to eat, when to eat, and how

things like a brief walk after a meal

can help keep my glucose stable, and

much more. If you'd like to try Lingo,

Lingo is offering Huberman podcast

listeners in the US 10% off a four-week

Lingo plan. Terms and conditions apply.

Visit hellolingo.com/huberman

for more information. The Lingo glucose

system is for users 18 and older, not on

insulin. It is not intended for the

diagnosis of diseases including

diabetes. Individual responses may vary.

Your description uh brings to mind a

number of things but uh years ago a

colleague of mine who unfortunately now

has passed um stopped me in the hallway

at Stanford this was Ben Barers my

postto adviser later my colleague as a

faculty member he said

why do we have so much less energy as we

get older and [laughter] I said well

it's probably not a concern with you Ben

I mean he was known for having

tremendous amounts of energy he probably

only slept four or five hours a night

but in any case I said I don't know and

he goes well how come no 's working on

that? Like, why are we working on all

this other stupid stuff? And I won't

tell you what he listed off cuz some of

it was stuff in his laboratory. Um, and

I said, "Well, that stuff's interesting,

too." He goes, "But nothing is more

interesting than why we have less energy

as we get older, except perhaps why it

is that the brain can't change as

readily

>> and when we're young as opposed to

older." you said something very

important to uh underscore and that I'd

like to get into a bit more which is you

said you know or your partner said um uh

energy is the potential for change and

you mentioned emotions they stir us

right and that that feeling especially

of positive anticipation is so much of

what we live for in fact the

>> the signature feature of major

depression is lack of

>> of kind of any idea that there is a

future worth living into

>> apathy.

>> So apathy etc. Whereas vitality and

excitement and everything good about

life is about wanting to know what comes

next. So if we take a um a biohysical to

cellular to psychological set of steps

here we would say that somehow energy is

converted into uh this internal

vibration which we call emotions that

let us sense physically sense into a

future

>> could be even a negative emotion but

that but it still senses into a future

and then you give this example very

dramatic example but

believe appropriate of a cadaavver where

all the material is is still there right

after death before it degrades right but

it can't move and therefore there is no

future sense

>> it's a very a very different way of of

thinking about death so

>> let's talk about um psychological energy

and physical energy that we call

vitality um and if you would is a bit of

a challenge but could you perhaps use

that as an opportunity to teach us about

these incredible organels that we call

mitochondria.

>> I use a slide uh often as an opening

slide when I give presentations to

academics or non-academics uh which is

kind of a mitoric view of the world,

>> right? Like at some point we realized

that the the earth was not the the

center of the world and then we switched

over to a different form of a different

you know model of the universe. So my

sense is we need to do something similar

for uh in biio medicine. We still have I

think in most people's mind especially

the older generations a very gene

centric you know nucleioentric view of

biology that the genes are there and

then central dogma right the genes drive

RNA drive protein and then drive

phenotype uh and we know that that's not

the full picture and there's a lot of

end phenotypes for example and

genetically identical mice right there

are mice that all have the same genome

and some are like very anxious and some

are super chill

it it can't be encoded in the gene

somehow. We found recently that's

actually there differences in

mitochondria and part of the reason why

these animals behaviorally are different

maybe half of what half of the varants

half of like the the interindividual

differences what makes one mouse super

chill and the other the brother the

sister that is genetically identical uh

very anxious has to do about with

energetics in in some way. Um so I use

this slide to convey this mitoric uh

perspective if you want to have a copy

and you know show people um I'm happy to

share this and one way to understand

this is energy comes into the organism

as food we eat and we breathe to fuel

our mitochondria right so the the reason

you breathe is to bring oxygen into the

body most people know this and then once

oxygen is in your lungs it goes into

your blood and then it goes to the heart

and then the heart kind of boom

distributes this you know across a whole

organism. Uh and then when oxygen gets

you know to your big toe or to your

muscle or to your neuron and you know

the your hippocampus or some brain

region um what happens is the oxygen

enters the cell and then once it's

inside the cell it looks for

mitochondria looks I mean it's attracted

by a concentration gradient. So that's

the mitochondria is where oxygen is

consumed. uh and then when mitochondria

consume oxygen they basically create a

downhill slope for oxygen to kind of be

attracted to that. So you breathe to

bring oxygen to your mitochondria and

you eat to bring electrons into your

mitochondria. And uh what happens there

is you know this beautiful sequence of

of of a reactions where you have

electrons from that were initially stuck

on food by the plant. You know taking

solar energy to stick electrons onto

carbon and then you make hydrocarbons

and then that's you know glucose or

starch or and then li oils lipids

everything that that's good for good

fuel for mitochondria. those things, the

food and the oxygen converge inside the

mitochondria and then finally the uh the

electrons that were you know ripped off

as CO2 is broken into oxygen and and uh

or reunited in your mitochondria and so

your mitochondria actually make water uh

and and and then release CO2. So that's

the they close the life cycle that you

know we have with photosynthesis.

photosynthesis makes oxygen and food and

then our mitochondria brings those two

things together and then they release

water and CO2 exactly what plants need.

So it's this beautiful cycle. So when

mitochondria do this uh is basically uh

feeding unpatterned energy into the

system and it starts with with the

mitochondria the same way that if you

feed electricity into a mo morse code

right like t um you feed electricity

it's unpatterned energy like food and

biochemistry is to your body and then

you by pressing and releasing a little

lever right with a specific pattern what

you're doing is you're patterning

electricity which means means nothing.

It's just, you know, raw current. And

then you pattern it in something that

means something. Short beeps, long

beeps, and then you can spell stuff. You

can communicate information, right? So

you're creating information

out of, you know, by patterning in in

time, right? By patterning electricity.

So mitochondria, the way I see them is

they're kind of an energy patterning

system.

>> And we've called them the mitochondrial

information processing system for that

reason. Should we think of them like a

little morse code um lever? I

>> I think it's a decent you know analogy

for uh you know part of their behavior,

part of what they do fundamentally. They

take raw energy and then they pattern

that energy into molecules.

>> This perhaps is why I've heard you say

that we should not just think about

mitochondria as the powerhouse of the

cell generating more ATP.

That is true, but it's also true that

they're controlling the flow of energy

in a very detailed way.

>> Correct. And they're controlling the

flow of energy, but they're also

controlling um the transformation of

energy, right? The electricity, you

know, can be converted, transformed into

all sorts of different messages,

signals, right, with your MOS Morris

code depending on the needs, depending

on, you know, the state, depending on

the person pressing, releasing the

lever. Um, and sometimes the organism

needs a lot of ATP. If you're a

mitochondrian and you live in the heart

and your job is to make ATP, a lot of

ATP and then there's side jobs. If

you're a mitochondrian in the liver,

your job is very different and you're a

very different kind of mitochondrian.

>> Well, let me ask you this. Uh, I think

you just answered the question, but

>> are there different types of

mitochondria?

>> Yes.

How does a mitochondria in the liver

versus in the brain versus in the heart

know to take the energy that it's

transforming

>> and pattern its output so that heart

cells can do what heart cells need to do

or liver or brain?

>> Uh this seems like a very important

issue. Um

>> is it possible even that the

mitochondria and these different tissues

are fundamentally different organels?

And we should probably define what an

organel is for people.

>> Yes. Yeah. Organel is the the technical

term uh for an organ of the cell. Uh and

the cell typically is represented as

this you know skin and then inside the

skin is the cytoplasm the big soup. And

then inside the soup the cytoplasm

there's a bunch of little organs that

allow the cell to do all sorts of uh

things and perform its activities and

replicate and so on. Mitochondria is one

of those organs. uh and their purpose is

to uh process transform energy. Uh and

one of the ways in which they they

transform energy is taking raw uh energy

from biochemistry the the food you eat

uh empowered by oxygen to you know flow

those electrons and then making building

a a charge and then powering this

beautiful rotor. Uh some people might

have seen this. It's kind of a a rotary,

you know, uh engine kind of thing. a

turbine uh and then when the mito when

mitochondria build their membrane

potential to become charged they use

that charge to power the rotation of

this turbine and then as the turbine

turns it converts ADP into ATP so now

you have conversion of biochemistry into

electricity and electrochemical charge

in the mitochondria back into

biochemistry ATP what's um in the

backdrop of all this of course is that

all of this self-organizes during

development that yes the genes are the

blueprint but This is all built up from

scratch and probably a a a tangent for

another time. But

>> so how does a a heart cell know to

produce

>> a lot of ATP versus a liver cell? And of

course it's coordinated in time with

sleep and circadian stuff, but how does

it know or does it even know I'm a I'm a

mitochondria inside a heart cell and the

amount of energy I need to transform is

X?

>> Yeah. How does a mitochondrian right

singular is mitochondrian and multiple

is mitochondria. Uh how does a

mitochondrian and a hard cell know that

it needs to be a cardiac mitochondrian

right? Is that your question?

>> Yeah. Is it is it genetically different

than a mitochondrian from uh the liver?

>> No, they're genetically exactly the

same. And uh and that's another uh kind

of punch to the the gene-based, you

know, model of biology. How could it be

that every cell in your body is

genetically identical? Uh and the

mitochondria have their own genetic

material.

You we all have our mom's mitochondria,

which is really beautiful. Again,

>> 100% of our mitochondrial genome is from

mom. Is that true?

>> Correct.

>> Okay.

>> And there were a few papers a few years

ago that said, "Oh, no, look here.

There's this like re this one case,

[laughter]

this one kid or this, you know, these

two kids that have paternal, you know,

father mitochondria." Turns out it was

like a mistake in the sequencing or

>> so mothers are truly always right.

[laughter]

>> Yes. Power to power to mothers. people

will be thinking and I'm also thinking

does that mean and of course there are

lifestyle issues but does that mean that

if we were to look at the quoteunquote

energy levels of mom versus energy

levels of dad that what better predicts

the energy levels of a kid is the

mother's sort of baseline levels of

energy at a given age

>> I don't know the of studies that have

asked that question about like

subjective energy or like the energy to

do stuff and uh which we I think we'll

talk more about but uh people have

looked at other more uh tractable which

what we do in biio medicine we take

things that we can measure objectively

or like you know run on a gel or

sequence or you know objectify with a

biioarker in in the clinic uh people

have looked at longevity right are are

you more likely to live long if your mom

lived long or if your dad lived long.

Turns out the heritability of longevity

is more maternal than paternal.

uh or are you more likely to have a

mental health disorder or to have

Parkinson's or Alzheimer's if your mom

or your dad had it? Uh some evidence say

it's more maternally inherited than

paternally inherited.

>> Uh so it could be that part of uh the

your ability to live a long healthy life

uh or your risk or your resilience right

to those disorders really are conveyed

or carried by mitochondria by your

ability to to transform energy. And the

the reason why through evolution

uh unique parental inheritance you get

your mitochondria from a single parent

uh has developed most people think is

because there needs to be a really close

metabolic energetic match between the

mom and the baby right like the baby

comes out and then if the mom has like a

certain type of metabolism and we're all

different I hope we talk about like how

different we are energetically

metabolically uh so we're all very

different if the baby that was born was

like so metabolically different than the

mom, there's a chance that there would

be a mismatch, right? And then the mom

wouldn't be able to support through

breastfeeding. Historically, that's how

babies survived. Uh, and that would be a

catastrophe. So, you know, it's probably

a good uh system to have baby metabolism

match pretty closely because they have

the same mitochondria as the mom to mom

metabolism. Uh, so that's I think a

loose hypothesis, but it makes a lot of

sense.

>> It does make a lot of sense. Yeah, every

mitochondria you have in your body, like

the brain mitochondria, neuron

mitochondria, astroite mitochondria,

whatever your favorite cell type is,

your heart mitochondria, liver

mitochondria, muscle mitochondria,

they're they're very different. And now

we have a new method. There's a

wonderful scientist in her group, Anna

Monzel, who's developed a method to

profile different types of mitochondria.

We call this mitotyping. The same way

that now in neuroscience or in

immunology, it makes no sense to talk

about a brain cell or like an immune

cell, right?

>> If you're a self uh you know respecting

immunologists, you know, your cell types

and there's, you know, at least 30

different types. Uh so I think we're at

this point in mitochondrial science

where we need to adopt a similar level

of specificity. There are different

types of mitochondria. We call those

mitoypes. uh and they emerge all of them

from the same mitoype in the egg right

the the egg that the mother carries and

you know releases from the ovary there's

about half a million uh mitochondria in

that egg uh and then those mitochondria

there's a single type of mitochondria in

there and then when it's fertilized

development happens in this beautiful uh

process and through that process as the

heart starts to form the brain starts to

form the muscles start to form the

mitochondria differentiate and then you

end up with different types of

mitochondria that are adapted and

matched to the different demands of of

of cell types of organs. uh and one way

we think about this is I think it's uh

it makes a lot of sense to think about

mitochondria as social organisms

>> and there multiple features of

mitochondrial biology that obey you know

what u behavioral social scientists you

know classify as as social you know if

you study ants for example there's like

a few rules that we know ants are social

creatures because uh they form groups

right and there are different types they

they divide there's division of labor

you have worker ants that, you know,

work really hard and you have a warrior

ants that are like really chubby and

like they're they're here to defend the

the hive. They like to fight. Yeah.

Exactly. So, those two types of ants,

you look at them side by side, there's

like this little flimsy super like uh uh

active worker ant and then this like

chubby uh warrior ant. Genetically,

they're they're identical.

>> They have the same genome. They came as,

you know, little larae from the, you

know, the queen. Uh but their their

morphology is super different. behavior

is is very different. Uh but through

development there are cues that you know

are are um uh uh applied to the

different larve and then they end up

becoming a worker or a warrior. Uh so

the same kind of thing happens uh in in

mitochondria. So mito there are

different types of mitochondria like the

two types of ants. There's division of

labor. There's some mitochondria for

example in the muscle that are at the

surface of the muscle like just

underneath the saroma the the skin of

the muscle cells and then there

mitochondria that are inside you where

the actin measin the contractile

proteins happen subscar mitochondria and

interophibrillary mitochondria two

populations their proteom is different

their their molecular composition of

those different types of mitochondria

are different their functions ATP

synthesis reactive oxygen species

production their ability to handle

calcium and release calcium is

different. Their morphology is very

different. So even within one cell you

get this uh division of labor and um uh

differentiation of mitochondria and in

every cell mitochondria have a life

cycle. New mitochondria are born and old

mitochondria die out uh which is what

happens in social creatures. Um and

there's a few other features like this

that I think make mitochondria social

organisms. And once you start to think

about mitochondria as social uh

creatures, then you understand maybe a

little better why they need to fuse with

one another. And if you if you ask

Google what do mitochondria look like or

chat GPT or whatever, uh the it shows

you always the same kind of images. It's

like a little bean.

>> I brought one you brought one as a gift.

I at one moment I thought they might be

brass knuckles when you hand first

handed them to me, but I said

mitochondrian with the ce of the

mitochondria. usually looks like this.

But you're saying in in reality there'd

be many of these connected to closely

fused to one another.

>> Yeah. So, and when they fuse, you get

these like bean or kidney shapes or

peanut shape, whatever your your

preference is that fuse with one another

and then they form these beautiful

filaments. Uh so, if you're lucky enough

to work in a lab that has one of these

cool microscopes called conffocal

microscope or light sheet microscopy and

then you can make the mitochondria

fluorescent. So you put a dye in in the

dish and then it's a little fluorescent

molecule that it goes inside the

mitochondria. It's attracted by the big

uh charge that mitochondria have uh and

then you turn off the lights, look down

the eyepiece and then you see this

beautiful like filaments, you know,

mitochondria moving. They move pretty

slowly and interestingly they're just at

the edge of human perception of like uh

how quickly we can perceive things to

move. So they move like, you know,

barely fast enough so you can see them

and then they they they kiss uh and and

then confuse completely.

>> Either you can invite everyone to your

lab to see this, but that's a lot of

people. You'd be very busy. We'll put a

link to a video of this.

>> Um

>> we're we're building a web page called

Mid Life, uh which is to help people,

you know, understand themselves

energetically uh and through, you know,

the beauty of mitochondria. And there

are all sorts of different types of

mitochondria that move differently. And

when the mitochondria are are not

healthy and if they can't flow and

transform energy properly, they start to

look really weird. [snorts] It occurred

to me that, you know, for the longest

time, I'm 50 now, so I can say for the

longest time. For the longest time, we

heard that if we want energy, we need to

eat, right? Of course, we need to sleep,

but we need to eat. So be like and and

every kid learns you're consuming energy

that so that you fuel your body there

all these discussions you should eat

meat don't eat meat I believe you should

eat some meat you should eat some

vegetables some fruit etc I think you

should be an omnivore some fats yes

that's my my belief but we all

understood that but then at some point

probably about 10 years ago it became

clear to people that just consuming more

energy didn't give you more energy it

was an obvious thing but it's now

abundantly clear and based on what

you're saying, it should be clear to

everyone that the issue is not lack of

energy going into the system.

>> It's that the transformation of energy

that occurs in mitochondria somehow is

not happening correctly in people that

are obese um or in people that are

eating and feeling lethargic. And of

course, there's blood sugar, you know,

aspects to this and we could discuss all

of that and we won't because that's not

the topic for uh for today. But I think

if nothing else, if people can just

understand that they have not just these

powerhouses, but these power plants

within their bodies that are

transforming the energy and that the

mitochondria are central to how the

energy is transformed and distributed

>> on an organ byorgan basis.

I think that would be a helpful concept

for people to get into their mind

because people are talking about

mitochondria all the time. People are

talking about and hearing about

nutrition all the time and so often we

just think about calories and you know

everyone knows that you know calories is

a unit of you know heat offput when you

burn a given food and we learn this

stuff but it doesn't transform into good

health practices

>> but I think nowadays people are starting

to get a sense of of how their bodies

work and you're adding a lot of

important uh detail and aspects to that

today.

>> Um so I just want to frame that up. Y

>> um if you have any reflections on that

great if not it was just a point that

came to mind that I think it might be

useful. Yes, it's so important and we

are energy fundamentally we are the flow

of energy through this biological

infrastructure right that we call the

body but you are not the cells or the

genes or right that that thing you are

much more uh that energy that is flowing

which is why when the energy stops

flowing you are no longer when you die

all the phys physical stuff remains but

you you no longer have an experience you

no longer exist as a as a person

>> the way I think about this is rather

than thinking in nouns, think in verbs.

>> And I think as biologists when we teach

biology, you have to teach some nouns,

some names of things. But if you can get

people to understand the verbs, as

concepts,

>> it's worth a a gazillion nouns.

>> And so I think um people thinking about

themselves as a verb state

>> of as energy transformation being, it

sounds so mystical, but it's not

mystical. It's biochemical. it is

>> uh I think could be useful. Along those

lines, I I do want to um talk about this

recent paper that you uh published uh

which essentially my understanding is

that looked at different brain areas

and found that different brain areas

have different concentrations of

mitochondria. And we know that different

body areas and different organs have

different concentrations of

mitochondria. But I heard you say

someplace and this is such a beautiful

sticky topic as they say that perhaps

the things we do in life

>> maybe lift weights, maybe study biology,

maybe play the piano, maybe some

combination of things

>> will enrich the mitochondria, these

energy transformation sites in

particular organs and areas of our brain

more than others. And so we really

become

what we pay attention to. We become

enhanced for what we do. And that makes

sense at the level of endurance runners

run and their muscles become and

everything becomes optimized for

running. Weightlifterss something else.

But in the brain, this gets very

interesting. This means that if we read

poetry for instance or study biology

that the areas and circuits of the brain

that are responsible for that in some

sense become better at doing that. Mhm.

>> And I think this is a very important

topic because it really gets to the

essence of who we are as individuals

based on our choices of what to do and

what not to do.

>> So with that as the backdrop, if you

could tell us about this paper and tell

us about what you think about these

findings and what they might mean,

>> I I would love that.

>> We flow as energetic processes, right?

To to your point like we we are

transformative processes. Like we

transform, we flow. We are the energy

that flows. And the more you direct

energy to one area, right? If you go to

the gym and you do bicep curls, like

you're resisting the flow of energy

while you're contracting and then you do

this a few times and then when you let

go, you get like blood flow, right?

Energy flow through the system. Uh and

we know exercise training is a beautiful

example. Like if you train to run a

marathon, for example, you can double

the number of mitochondria in your

muscles. Wow.

>> Double, right? And my understanding of

this is as energy flows through the

existing mitochondria you're basically

bringing you know energy into that that

system and then this uh that the

biochemical energy gets transformed and

into molecules into metabolites and then

eventually into proteins and then

structure gets created as energy flows

right so it's the flow of energy first

you resist it that's we call this energy

resistance and and then when you let go

of of the resistance it's that's when we

build. That's when we grow. That's when,

right, Arnold Schwazer said, um, muscles

are torn in the gym. They're fed in the

kitchen and are, um, grown in bed, I

think, is,

um,

>> in an Austrian accent.

>> Yes. So, um, so yeah, if you direct

energy towards a muscle, right, then one

way to direct energy is to resist the

energy flow and then to to let go. And

that's what exercise fundamentally is,

right? You resist the energy flow and

then you let go. When you resist energy

too much, it feels uncomfortable which

is like the the burning pain of of and

then when you let go is when growth and

uh you know building can happen. Uh and

we know the same thing happens like

everywhere. This is this is not like a

mysterious thing of the muscle and like

of exercise uh you know physiology. This

is a fundamental biological principle.

If you flow energy in one area then it

will grow. It will you know get better.

it will get more efficient. And if you

block energy flow to one area like you

block blood flow for example or you get

an accident and the nerve gets you know

damaged then the the muscle doesn't

contract anymore you're basically

blocking the flow of energy there and

what happens it atrophies right atrophy

is a normal uh movement of life when

energy flow decreases and if if there's

no energy flow really there's no purpose

for that structure if you feed if you

stimulate that structure be it a muscle

or brain circuit, right? A brain network

or brain area. Uh then naturally, you

know, that that area should uh should

grow and and and build. Uh and there

what we know happens in the brain and

also happens between different organs of

the body is there's kind of a

competition for finite energy resources.

>> Right? What you said earlier like you

can't just eat more to get more energy.

We know now we know very well if you

overeat, right? you eat more than your

body is actually flowing consuming in

terms of energy transforming you get

sick like if you can you put on fat

which is a good adaptive

uh coping mechanism to eating too much

uh but then eventually the systems like

it gets overwhelmed and then that hurts

the mitochondria and it hurts you know

cells to become insulin resistant and so

there's all sorts of consequences to

eating too much you cannot eat more to

get more energy and that is I think

still scientifically a very big mystery,

right? That why can't we just ramp up

our energy

uh consumption, energy transformation

and then like sleep less and you know uh

work out 3 hours every day that even

like professional athletes who devote

all of their energy to you know building

muscle mass, building skills or you know

building aptitudes, there's a limit to

how much you you know you can eat. Uh

and they're they're yeah we don't really

know why that is why there's a limit to

that. And uh so the body operates an

economy of energy. You have x amount of

energy. You can push that up, you know,

over short periods of time. Like if you

start to work out and you're you're a

cyclist, you do the to France, right?

Like three weeks, you're you're going

for like five 7,000 calories a day. You

do this for three weeks. There's a

reason why the to France is not four

weeks and five weeks,

>> right? There there's there's a cap. And

there's beautiful data showing that the

longer the event the athletic event the

lower the max output per day and and if

you looked at that curve you know the

the first point max power output you can

develop over 10 seconds is what you see

in the 100 meter sprint right and then

you get the uh 400 meters and and then

it goes down at the very and the to

France is you know marathon is here to

France three weeks is here then you get

like crazy run across America multiple

weeks and then at the very end nine

months

pregnancy

and [snorts] it costs energy to grow a

human being and uh some of the data

suggest that when you grow a human being

for 9 months you're basically operating

at the max of her capacity if you

integrate over you know a 9-month

period.

>> Do pregnant women accumulate more

mitochondria or the energy demands are

entirely for the mitochondria of the

developing fetus?

>> That is a good question. We know certain

brain areas grow during pregnancy

>> that the brain remodels. Exactly. Uh

there are different demands, right? As a

mother, if you're pregnant now, you need

to start to care about different things.

>> Maybe it's adaptive to start to think

about the world slightly different way.

And it's not just just about yourself.

And

>> um so there there are certainly and even

long-lasting brain changes happen in in

the woman's brain. So this economy of

energy between organs is likely what

explains if you're a young woman and you

exercise a lot, you lose your menes,

right? Aminora, then this is not because

the the reproductive system is broken or

because the ovaries are or are sick or

something like that. The best

explanation we have is there's a short

shortage of energy. Like you're pushing

and driving all of your energy budget

towards your working muscles towards

making more mitochondria in your muscles

and there's no more energy to fuel to to

to fuel uh reproduction. I have a

practical question related to this.

I have always wondered why is it that

when we're coming down with a cold or a

flu or some sort of other infection that

there are a bunch of processes that make

us uh more lethargic and tired and these

are very adaptive and we know we need to

rest. But it's not just about getting

sleep. We actually need to slow our

circulation down. We need to rest.

>> And there all these theories, you know,

about do you feed or starve a cold or

flu. And I covered that in a different

episode. We'll put a link. It's not

straightforward, but um follow your

appetite, stay hydrated, keep your

electrolytes up and so forth is the

short answer. But is it that the immune

system needs more energy and the body as

a protective mechanism, as an adaptive

mechanism is saying slow down everything

else and devote yourself to uh healing,

to fighting this infection as opposed to

spending energy even walking up the

stairs as much as you typically do

during a day. Is that the is that the

idea?

>> Yep. I think that's the best model we

have. Uh and I had a personal experience

of this uh over a New Year's a couple

years ago where I I could feel I was,

you know, coming down with something uh

before the, you know, New Year's dinner.

And so it ended up being a pretty short

night. I went to bed early and that

night was terrible. The next day I was

so uh so off and I was, you know,

starting to work on on the book Energy

and then I thought, "Oo, this is such a

a cool opportunity." Like now I'm

experiencing I'm feeling drained, right?

Like I'm in bed, everything hurts. And

then I thought I should be writing about

this, right? Like and then I I thought

like just the the thought of like

grabbing my computer then I shouldn't

cost more doesn't cost a lot of energy

just like wiggle my fingers on the

keyboard. But you know there was no

drive. I stopped caring about stuff that

I usually care about, right? Everyone

has experienced this when you're really

sick.

>> Uh motivation, right? zero. Um, my

capacity to be the best human being that

that that I am and to be kind

>> a little diminished.

>> Just like [snorts]

I was just

>> trying to survive, you know,

like and and what we know in terms of

biology and mitochondria and energy that

happens when you're fighting something

like this, the immune system cost a lot

of energy.

>> Mhm. Uh so I think the best model

interpretation we have of sickness

behavior is what you were describing the

technical term is you feel sick right

and you don't want to move the body you

feel cold right which then uh forces you

to put covers or you know to to dress to

avoid cold environments uh you it it

hurts to move your body like to contract

muscles and like the the there's alodmia

right the sensitiz you become more

sensitive to pain all of these things uh

likely exist in service of conserving

your precious energy budget and even not

eating right like follow your appetite.

Yes. And and if you you know eating

costs energy nothing in biology is free.

Everything costs something. And if you

eat food now you need to masticate. You

need to like have peristelsis. You need

to have gastric acidification movement

you know secretreting digestive enzymes

and maybe some bile. Like there the the

orchestration of digestion is pretty

expensive. It's like 10 15% of your

daily energy budget. So that's a 10 15%

of your daily energy budget if you're

running like a limit is a lot. By now

I'm sure that many of you have heard me

say that I've been taking AG1 for more

than a decade. And indeed that's true.

The reason I started taking AG1 way back

in 2012 and the reason why I still

continue to take it every single day is

because AG1 is to my knowledge the

highest quality and most comprehensive

of the foundational nutritional

supplements on the market. What that

means is that it contains not just

vitamins and minerals, but also

probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens

to cover any gaps that you might have in

your diet while also providing support

for a demanding life. Given the

probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it

also helps support a healthy gut

microbiome. The gut microbiome consists

of trillions of little microorganisms

that line your digestive tract and

impact things such as your immune

status, your metabolic health, your

hormone health, and much more. Taking

AG1 consistently helps my digestion,

keeps my immune system strong, and it

ensures that my mood and mental focus

are always at their best. AG1 is now

available in three new flavors: berry,

citrus, and tropical. And while I've

always loved the AG1 original flavor,

especially with a bit of lemon juice

added, I'm really enjoying the new berry

flavor in particular. It tastes great.

But then again, I do love all the

flavors. If you'd like to try AG1 and

try these new flavors, you can go to

drinkag1.com/huberman

to claim a special offer. Just go to

drinka1.com/huberman

to get started. You mentioned that if

women exercise beyond a certain

threshold, uh they stop menrating and

that it's because there's not enough

energy essentially to menrate. One idea

would be well if you just eat enough

then you have enough energy. But we have

to think in verb states not absolutes.

And so what I'm realizing is that while

one needs sufficient energy input in the

form of food and this could also be true

for the example of being sick,

>> it's necessary but not sufficient

because the mitochondria are doing two

things. They're transforming that food

energy into bodily energy to menrate or

to move or exercise or think or care

about a book etc.

>> But part of their job is not just to

transform the energy, it's to distribute

the energy. And so you really need two

conditions and you know I'm not a

computer scientist but I know enough

about programming you know and

engineering that you know this concept

of an andgate you need sufficient energy

so coming into the system and you need

to be able to distribute that energy

properly in order for something to occur

it's an endgate you need both things

basically

>> so I now and forever going forward will

think about mitochondria as not just

energy production but energy

distribution organal Yes,

>> thanks to the way you described it. And

now it makes perfect sense as to why

when I'm sick, if I'm not hungry, I'm

not going to force myself to eat,

provided I have enough body fat stores,

you know, I need to eat eventually, but

whatever weakness or fatigue I feel is

probably in that situation where I don't

have an appetite is probably not a lack

of caloric energy driving that fatigue.

It's that my body is saying, you know

what, you're better off just not having

me shuttle that food energy through you

so I can shuttle your immune cells to

the proper place. Exactly.

>> And this is when people say the body is

smart. There's an intelligence to the

system. I think that's true because with

our brains, we think, oh no, I'll just

cram more energy into you need to eat.

You need to No, maybe not. Whereas if I

do have an appetite, I don't care what

people say about feed a cold, starve a

flu or feed, you know, starve a flu,

feed a cold. I'm just going to do what

my body tells me to.

>> Yes. Yes. And I I agree the body is

wise. Animals who don't have a very

other non-human animals like your dogs

uh like they they don't have a mind to

distract them from, you know, living in

alignment with their energetic states.

>> So when they're sick, the immune system

just the the amount of the the part of

your budget that gets consumed by the

immune system, you know, expands, right?

So this energy this extra energy needs

to be stolen from somewhere because you

can't eat more to have you know infinite

energy. Uh so what where's that energy

coming from? So not contracting your

muscles because you feel in pain is a

good way. Not having to thermmorreulate

because you you know cover up another

way to conserve energy. and then

stopping to care about stuff like

becoming asocial and apathic and all of

those features of sickness behavior or

energyconserving

uh strategies and not eating like if you

can have like free 10 15% of your energy

now you can allocate it to your immune

system that is a very good strategy most

people walk around with multiple weeks

if not months worth of energy right like

under the skin and their love handles uh

the record actually for not eating is

from this uh Scottish man. 382 days.

>> Was he fat when he started?

>> He was very fat.

>> Was he fat when it ended?

>> Uh he lost uh how much he lost like 250

lbs I think.

>> That's all stored sandwiches.

>> Yeah. So most people can eat can go a

full month without eating. So So and

this maybe goes back to what we talked

about earlier like we don't feel energy

quantity, right? Like uh if you close

your eyes and you feel your energy like

you don't feel how much fat you have on

your body, how much glycogen you have in

your liver or you know in your muscles.

What you feel is the transformation of

energy,

>> the neural energy.

>> Do you want to do a little experiment?

We can do a little experiment to to feel

our energy.

>> Definitely.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> By the way, a a a tenure full professor

at Columbia School of Medicine just

said, "Uh, do you want to do a little

experiment to feel your energy?" and we

both closed our eyes, which tells you

that it's definitely 2025. [laughter]

>> You know, the reason

>> good things have happened in the world.

Okay.

>> The reason we both closed our eyes and

kind of stopped moving our our bodies,

which is kind of what you do if you want

to meditate or something like this, is

because it turns off the noise.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. And the if you want to survive in

a dangerous physical world, you need to

be aware of like stuff that might hurt

you, right? Or kill you. Um and feeling

your body like propriception and all of

this needs to be very high level. Yeah.

It needs to be prioritized over whatever

intraceptive you know signal there are.

There's some intraceptive signal that's

what we'll feel into that you know can

overcome that but just not moving the

body closing your eyes it kind of helps

you to tune into your energy and I

suspect there's a lot of value there.

>> Yeah. We'll talk more about some

incredible results about meditation and

and restoration of energy. Um, can the

audience do this along with us provided

they're not driving?

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Okay, great.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, so to do this, uh, best is you're

sitting comfortably and, um, you can

close your eyes if you want to. I think

that helps with the the process. We'll

take one breath in and then, uh, we'll

we'll hold the breath for a little bit.

So, breathing in, [snorts]

breathing out,

and you can breathe out all the way, all

the way down. And then hold that breath.

And for the first few seconds, it's

generally not too uncomfortable. But

then as you hold this, feel into your

body, to your belly, into your chest,

into your head.

What's the effect of not breathing? And

then you start to feel maybe this urge

to breathe and this desire to bring

oxygen into your body, to your

mitochondria.

And then when you need to, you take a

breath in. You can open your eyes. If

you can hold it longer, you you do.

Yeah. What did you feel? So when I went

to the full exhale and held my breath,

>> uh my what we geek speak, what

neuroscientists call interosception, my

perception of things from the skin

inward became more salient and I could

feel my heartbeat uh more and more. Um,

and then it didn't speed up, but I could

just feel my heart beating. I was more

aware, excuse me, of my heart beating.

And then I, as the impulse to breathe

started to kick in,

uh, you could feel a bit of ramping up

of it's not anxiety, but it's a sense of

urgency,

>> you know, hardwired, fortunately, sense

of urgency. And then with an with an

inhale, there's a a relaxation of of

that sense. Y

>> and um there is this sense that uh

energy moves out from the center at that

point like like you feel more of your

body

>> because I think anytime we don't have

air um our brain goes to how do I bring

air right here right now you're not

thinking heartbeat you're thinking get

get air

>> something of that sort

>> yes I think if you do that and the the

the urgency right the anxiety the stress

or um this you know it feels dangerous

right and And I think to many people

dying by drowning or like suffocation is

like the the the one of the worst death.

And uh so why is that? Like what is that

sense of urgency of anxiety? It's CO2

building up in your blood. Right? CO2 is

the product that mitochondria release as

they transform energy. And then when CO2

builds up, it means oxygen is getting

depleted. Right? If oxygen gets

depleted, the electrons from the food

you eat can no longer flow. Right? If

there's no oxygen at the end in your

mitochondria to accept the electrons

flowing, you stop flowing. So you as a

movement of energy are at risk of of

ceasing to exist. Not being able to

breathe, right? Uh being out of breath

is an existential threat to your

energetic self. Without getting into the

details, I've talked about it on other

podcasts. I had a a scuba diving

accident a few years ago, 2017. ran ran

out of air in a

>> in a bad situation to begin with. Um and

I'll tell you the sense of urgency is

very immediate and um fortunately didn't

end up with any PTSD from that. It

obviously worked out okay. I'm I'm

sitting here and talking. But um now

I understand why. And I never did this

to another kid, nor did anyone ever do

it to me, but there's this joke that

kids play on one another where their

friend is coming up from underwater and

you're ready to take a breath. That's

why you come up from underwater. And if

someone holds your head right at that

point, even though it's just a m a

moment,

>> the sense of urgency that kicks in

>> is very intense and very very fast.

>> Uh which speaks to just how hardwired

these circuits are because at that point

presumably there was enough air to stay

under for another 5 seconds or whatever

it is. But when we anticipate getting

oxygen and we don't,

>> there's a big increase in

>> stress. energy goes straight to whatever

whatever areas of the brain, amydala and

other areas presumably that are like

this is a bad situation do anything and

everything becomes about resolving this

situation.

>> Yes. And and that's because we are

energy. We are the flowing energy

through the system. And if energy uh

starts to stall, it just feels so

uncomfortable. We have to have evolved

to to feel this. If something is making

your energy stall, like there's not

enough oxygen around, you need to get

out of there. And you need to have this

instinct, right, to to survive. So,

what's trying to survive is not like the

the physical body. It's it's the this

flow of energy that's, you know, being

threatened, right, from from lacking

oxygen.

>> Many times already, you've talked about

the flow of energy, and that concept, I

think it's going to be threaded through

as we go forward. when you hear about um

practices

like Tai Chi or when you hear like in

the martial arts where people are taking

other people's energy and you know

converting and this is a not just a

thing of like of iikido but the notion

that like if you box you learn that you

you're not just hitting with your arm

and your shoulder you have to keep your

feet planted you're pulling from the

floor in some sense you're transferring

the energy but you're actually pushing

back against the floor and then it's

coming up through your body people talk

about the fascial slings you know when

people run there There are a bazillion

different variations on this, but it's

all about this concept of flow of

energy. And I find that so much of what

we find incredible when people dance,

when people uh sing, when people uh do

incredible athletic feats or channel

everything they've got into something.

This channeling of energy is the human

animal deliberately channeling all their

energy in the form of practice into

something. In many ways, we love that.

Even though by definition it creates a

very uh lopsided person and I I'm not

trying to get into the psychology of

this so much as I want to go back to

this notion of our brain areas having

different amounts of mitochondria

>> probably from birth but then if we play

soccer and we like math and uh pottery

we get a different brain

>> than if we like reading and theater and

movies and We'll exercise, but we're not

too crazy about it. You know, if we

exercise, our brain works better. We've

heard,

>> but there's also the notion of the

person who just spends all their time

exercising

>> and their brain doesn't get better.

>> I'm being gentle there.

>> And I like exercise and I like thinking.

[laughter]

So,

>> is there a trade-off?

>> Is there a trade-off?

>> Because I believe in staying fit and

staying healthy and living a long life,

but most people are not competitive

athletes. Most people don't want to be

the strongest person in the gym or the

best runner. Most people, I believe, and

I'm one of these, I want to be strong

enough. I want to have endurance. I want

to have some speed, but I want to be

able to think. I want my mitochondria

balanced across all my systems. My

girlfriend would say, "Well, you're a

Libra. Of course you do." But I'm saying

I want it because I want to be able to

lean into a lot of different aspects of

life. I don't want to become the

atrophied

>> in one area and hypertrophied to some

great extent in some other area, human.

>> Yep. So, what are your thoughts on these

through the lens of the results that you

recently published?

>> Is it a trade-off? I don't think we know

uh exactly, but we did a study recently

that points to the fact that there might

be trade-offs

>> between different systems.

>> Sorry, meattheads. No, I'm just kidding.

I love I love working out in the gym,

but you have to read too, you know.

[laughter]

>> You know, we we tested the hypothesis

that if you have more mitochondria in

your muscles, you also have more in your

brain and then your heart and then your

liver and then your skin. And the result

is that's not the case.

>> And you know, you Andrew, I think you

seem to derive a lot of fulfillment. And

um you know,

you live up to your full potential when

you can do all of these things, right?

And you're a great communicator. You're

a great integrator. You know, the kind

of thinking you do is like this this

beautiful integrative thinking uh which

is which might be what has led you to do

what you do now, right, for with most of

your time because this really taps into

your strengths. It really moves you, I

suspect, energetically. I think I enjoy

it. You enjoy it. What does that mean?

Right? Enjoyment is kind of an emotional

state, an affective state that it's an

energetic state. We're all different

energy transformers, right? Like you

transform energy and you have this

ability to do what you do. Other people

have very different skills, right, and

gifts. I think we we're born with

something that uh doesn't seem to be

fully just encoded in in people's

genomes. [laughter] there are

genetically identical twins that have

very different aptitudes and you know

personalities and we don't know where

this comes from. Um and and then we are

fed we're you know moved and inspired by

different things and uh when people seem

to follow that it it appears to bring

them energy and what this means

biologically the level of mitochondria I

think our our research is starting to to

point in a direction that says if you're

engaged in things that bring you purpose

and fulfillment there's another study we

did we asked people our colleagues in

Chicago ask people before they died. How

do you how much uh sense of purpose do

you have in your life? How meaningful

social connections, well-being, right?

Uh and then the negative stuff,

depression, loneliness, you know,

anxiety, uh and then every year they

answered those questionnaires. So, we

knew how deep people felt about

themselves, about life, about, you know,

some greater power, you know, beyond

them. Uh and then they died, gave their

brain to science. We got a little piece

of brain and now we're measuring the

mitochondria. uh and Cavalyn Trump uh a

researcher who works in her group who's

a a bonafide mitochondrial

psychobiologist. So she asked questions

between the psyche and and the and the

biology of mitochondria. So she asked

could it be that how people felt before

they died relates to the bitochondria in

their brain and the prefrontal cortex

the DLPFC the dorsalateral prefrontal

cortex. And what she found is that

people who felt more purpose in life and

who felt more connected to others and

who felt you know well-being uh for

whatever whatever was bringing them

well-being it seemed like that was

sufficient to increase the energy

transformation capacity of the

mitochondria in their brain. So is this

because of the experiences that you know

they're fortunate to have or that

they're actively fostering in their life

uh that's actually transforming the

mitochondria in their brain maybe. Or

it's the other way around for some

reason that we don't understand they

have more of the energy transformation

capacity in their brain mitochondria and

that is leading them to experience the

world as more positive and as more

purposeful and as more meaningful.

Right? Animal studies say it probably

goes both ways. So if you tweak the

mitochondria in a rat brain, you can

change the behavior of that animal to

from more submissive to more dominant or

from more dominant to more submissive.

Beautiful work by Carmen Sandy at EPFL

in Switzerland that showed this. Uh and

then the other way around, if you

chronically stress animals, you deprive

them of kind of freedom of choosing

different, you know, options. So

chronically stressful things actually

damage the mitochondria in the brain.

And there in some brain areas there are

fewer mitochondria and they don't

transform energy as well. So the

mitochondria are responsive it seems to

our states of mind. Uh and that the

mitochondria in our brain can also

influence our states of mind. And and if

if we want to talk about the philosophy

of this thinking about like what's

causing what maybe is and you're really

the right question to ask but what's

emerging is that's relevant to your

question. There's a clear connection

between the subjective experiences that

we have that we know from first person

to be meaningful, right? Because that's

what we have access to uh primarily is

how we feel, how we experience the world

somehow is related to the biology of the

energy transforming units, energy

processing units in our brain,

>> man.

>> Uh and and maybe also in our immune

system. And so we've done work in immune

cells and in brain tissue. Um, and we're

currently analyzing mitochondria from

5,000 uh human brain samples. That's 10

different uh brain and and muscle uh

samples from 500 people.

>> Do you have histories on these people as

to how much purpose, what they did, how

life how much life fulfillment they had.

>> I'm so glad that biologists like you

exist. I just want to say that uh not

just because you're agreeing to be a

public health educator, but um just it's

incredible how much things have changed

in the last few years in terms of the

public awareness about biology and

psychology. But I I have the genuine

sense that with you doing the kind of

work that you're doing that no longer

are we going to be talking about the

eastern philosophy of energy versus you

know mitochondria in a laboratory at

some medical school at an Ivy League

medical school. But you're merging these

ideas in in real data. And I think it's

going to bring together ideas that have

been in cooperation for a long time but

didn't realize it. And I think it's

going to transform human health because

>> if we think about ourselves as energy

transformation beings,

we're going to think pretty carefully