When the moment calls for fierceness,

a good Morirani is a killer. And they

they are. They're warriors. They'll kill

you. Don't cross them. When the moment

calls for tenderness, a good Morirani

will lay down his sword and shield and

be sweet like a baby. What makes a great

Morani is knowing which moment is which.

Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,

where we discuss [music] science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

>> [music]

>> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Terry Reel. Terry Reel is a

therapist and considered one of the

world's foremost experts on male

psychology and on male female dynamics

in romantic relationships. Today we

discuss what it means to be a man and

the mental health crisis that men are

facing nowadays. As you may have heard,

rates of depression and suicide are at

an all-time high in men right now. Fewer

and fewer men are in romantic

relationships, and many don't even have

a single close friend. And for those

that are in romantic relationships, the

public messaging about how to show up in

those relationships is very conflicted.

Today, we address all of these issues

headon. Terry explains that to thrive in

life, men have to look at relating as a

skill that requires action and yes,

feelings, but also processing and

communicating those feelings in a

specific way and sometimes not

communicating them at all. We also

discussed the critical importance of

fraternity, not necessarily college

fraternities, but finding and belonging

to a group of men that you can trust,

that you can enjoy time with, that give

you honest feedback, and that hold you

accountable. What I appreciate so much

about Terry Reel is that he's willing to

answer the hard questions about men and

women very directly. And frankly, most

therapists are not willing to do that

publicly. For example, he explains that

in his extensive work with couples,

women and men are equally bad at

relationships, but in different ways,

and he offers solutions for them both if

they actually want their relationship to

thrive. Thanks to his honesty and

providing practical tools, Terry Reel

provides us today with essential

information for men and women of all

ages. It cuts through all the

generational differences that certainly

exist to highlight the practical ways

that men can build and support their

mental health and thrive at work,

school, and in romantic relationships

and also just as importantly in their

relationship to themselves. That is how

men can build a strong self-concept,

sense of agency, and confidence. Before

we begin, I'd like to emphasize that

this podcast is separate from my

teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however part of my desire and

effort to bring zero cost to consumer

information about science and science

related tools to the general public. In

keeping with that theme, today's episode

does include sponsors. And now for my

discussion with Terry Real. Terry Reel,

welcome.

>> Uh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank

you.

>> What's going on with men? What's this

mental health uh men's crisis suicide

rates are way way up? What's going on?

What's going on is that the old role is

shifted. The sand is uh shifted under

our feet

and we're trying to figure out what the

hell we are and if we're not going to be

what our dads and granddads were, what

are we going to be? and

we're searching and we're grappling. I

got to tell you the other thing that's

going on

is

somewhat in reaction to feminism and you

know somebody said about my work women

have had a revolution and now men have

to deal with it. It's like what are we

supposed to do here? And there's been a

backlash.

Uh there's been a resurgence in our

country and around the globe of almost a

celebration of some of the most

difficult

unattractive aspects of traditional

masculinity.

And we're not sure what it means to be a

man anymore. particularly young guys are

are grappling and um

there aren't a lot of healthy examples

saying, "Okay, here's the new territory.

Let me let me show you what it looks

like." Uh the biggest response that I

see uh to the confusion about what are

we supposed to do here uh has been uh

regressive. Let's go back to being

powerful, dominant, entitled,

aggressive.

Uh, and you see this at the top. You see

this in politics, not just in our

country, but all over the globe. Um,

autocracy dominance is is celebrated.

And it's like

we're tired of the woke. We're tired of

being told that we're bad. You know, I

grew up in the 60s in the height of

feminist and I consider myself a

feminist family therapist.

>> Did you have long hair in the

>> Oh, yeah. And a mustache and the whole

thing. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And a lot of

drugs. And uh but uh when I grew up, the

the joke was um you know, the

philosophical uh if a tree falls in the

woods and no one's there, does it still

make a sound? And when I grew up, it was

uh if a man speaks in the woods and

there's no one there, is he still wrong?

>> [clears throat]

>> That was the the first surge of of major

feminism.

>> Yeah. Well, early stage feminism was uh

angry. I am proud to say my dear friends

and colleagues who are uh in the

forefront of feminism, Mr. Pel, Carol

Gilligan are man-loving feminists. But

that's that wasn't the first wave. And

it was really a um understandable

uh reaction to

the entitlement and the oppression of

women. But I call that political

patriarchy and it exists. Look uh you

step out of America and it's pretty

clear uh women are oppressed by men all

over the globe. That's true. But what I

as a psychologist, what I'm interested

in is what I call psychological

patriarchy. The dynamics of patriarchy.

And that can take place between two men,

between two women, between a mother and

a child, between two races. And the

psychology of patriarchy is a straight

jacket that is, I believe, toxic for

everybody. Uh, now there there are some

positive traits to traditional

masculinity. It's not completely black

and white, but a lot of it is really

unhealthy.

So, a lot of guys reacted to being told,

"You're wrong, you're wrong, you're

wrong," by, "Hey, I'm throwing off the

shackles. I'll do what the hell I want."

And a kind of celebration of the old

freedoms and the old entitlements. But

that ain't the way out. And even though

we see this resurgence right now, that

does not breed a happy human being. Uh

so we need models of progressive

masculinity, not regressive masculinity,

and they're rare.

Is it possible that now there are more

templates of what it is to be a man than

there were before? I mean, in my mind,

in my very simple-minded,

not formally educated about this topic,

except having grown up.

>> Yeah, you are a man. You are a guy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the only

experience I have, right? So,

everything's filtered through my own

experience as best as I can try and get

outside. I mean,

>> this is where I started and where I'll

end up. uh you know that the model that

I was exposed to was okay you know um in

the 40s and 50s men looked and acted a

certain way

>> and there it was a fairly narrow

template

>> very narrow

>> pretty narrow template

>> and pretty inhuman in some ways the

essence of traditional masculinity

which didn't end in the 50s it's still

with us very much today is stoicism uh

The essence of being a man is being

invulnerable.

The more invulnerable you are, the more

manly you are. The more vulnerable you

are, the more girly you are to this day.

And being girly is not a good thing.

Well, there's some problems with that.

One is we are vulnerable as human

beings. That's a lie. Denying our

vulnerability is a lie. And so I see

chronic anxiety, depression, everybody's

in a state of do I measure up? And you

don't because what you're trying to

measure up to isn't real. You know, I

say to guys, uh trying to to run away

from your own vulnerability is like

trying to outrun your rectum. It has a

way of following you everywhere you go.

We are vulnerable. And the other issue

with that traditional model of stoicism

is we connect to each other through

vulnerability. That's how human beings

connect. And men are walled off. And one

of the issues facing us uh is in

heterero relationships. Women across the

West are insisting on levels of

emotional connection and openheartedness

and intimacy from their from us guys

that literally were stamped out of us as

boys. You know, the way we turn boys

into men traditionally in this culture

is through disconnection.

You disconnect from your feelings. You

disconnect from vulnerability. You

disconnect from others. you disconnect

from your mother. We call all this

becoming autonomous. Well, this whole

story of achieving autonomy has nothing

to do with real psychology. There's no

basis for it at all. It's just

patriarchy.

So, like for example, you know, the

monoselabic adolescent boy who won't

answer his mother, that's not normal. We

we think of it as normal. Uh but that's

not psychologically necessary. It is a

mandate of traditional masculinity.

And I'm here to tell you that

traditional masculinity is harmful.

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Let me ask you about this uh template.

Like, so there's the 1940s

went into the 60s somewhat template,

right? As Steve Jobs so aptly said, you

know, the 60s really happened in the

70s. The long hair, the mustaches, most

of that was in the 70s. Some of it was

in the 60s, but most of it was in the

70s. Okay? So there's that very stoic

template,

>> right?

>> Right. Um provider, protector, stoic,

>> no feelings.

>> Right. Yeah. And it's actually

interesting to look I have looked a

little bit of the history of this. Um

you know, there were even uh diagrams

that, you know, men should never stand

with their hands on their hips because

that was like a feminine stance. Never

tilt a hip to one side. I mean, this

stuff was but it was out there, right?

And it was also coupled with etiquette.

It was very clear how to act, right?

There wasn't much range, but the sort of

range of things to do and say was fairly

scripted, which I I'll just make I'm not

trying to play devil's advocate here,

but it made the script simpler

and therefore more accessible, but it

masked a lot of other things is I think

what we both agree on. But then came the

template. You I was born in 75, so I'm

50 now. Um,

in the late 80s and 90s, it was kind of

a mishmash of things. We saw our first

um, gay male characters in television

shows. Yes,

>> we saw also g g g g g g g g g g g g g g

g g g g g g gay female characters, but

since we're talking about men and

masculinity here, that that be that was

the first time I think it was the

character on the real world San

Francisco that um the first character,

forgive me for not remembering his name,

he died of AIDS and it was during the

AIDS um AIDS epidemic and

>> Willian Grace and Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, there was more of that, right?

But there's a difference between having

gay men in the public eye and saying

that the role of straight men had

changed.

>> Totally agree. Totally agree. Those are

two separate things, but there was sort

of an expansion of of notions of

maleness. I would say in the 80s and

90s, it's almost like um things became

somewhat more of a buffet, right? You

had your football jock types, your

finance guys. There was the stoic thing,

the provider protector thing, but then

there was more of an of an art artsy

artist phenotype.

>> Yeah.

>> That um emerged as well. You had um I

wouldn't say sensitive artist, but the

artistic expression.

>> Yeah.

>> Became kind of it was always, but it

became part of masculinity.

>> Well, you had hippies.

>> You had hippies and then it became and

then it was like rock and roll, right?

Right. I mean, you had also, not my

taste, but you had like the bonjovies

types, you know, you had like long hair

and and it was Oh, you're from Jersey.

Okay. I've got memory. So, so Bonjov is

an appropriate example. So, there was

somewhat of an expansion.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. There was somewhat of an

expansion. And then now it seems that

the templates of maleness, I mean some

of the most famous musical artists who

are men and you know report as

heterosexual from what I know are, you

know, dress in what used to be

considered a very feminine way, right?

You had that before too, David Bowie.

Yeah.

>> Right. I mean, so there's always been a

bit of gender bending within this

template, but it really, I think,

emerged the most in the '9s, and it's

continued forward. And now, when I talk

to guys in their 20s, cuz I have friends

with kids who are now in their late

teens and 20s, um, it seems that they

are very comfortable with the idea of

self-expression. I guess this is where

I'm trying to reconcile this notion of

like that we're so you said that we're

kind of still steeped in the patriarchy,

but it seems like the the kids in their

20s and 30s um and maybe even 40s, they

feel like they have options. Well, they

they have access to emotion in ways that

we didn't. You know, they were all

raised by feminist mothers. Uh and it

had its uh impact. But the the problem

is, you know, I see these guys and

they're all whining that women aren't

attracted to them. And there's a reason

for that. A lot of guys who get in touch

with the emotion and the the sort of

more heartfelt uh issues uh bring along

with it traditional male privilege.

So it's like I'm emotional now. Come and

take care of me.

And a lot of the women are complaining

that these guys are kind of children.

They're not they don't stand up. The

issue is this.

Can you be big-hearted and open and

emotional and show up and be responsible

and be giving? The thing that hasn't

changed for a lot of us guys is giving.

uh back in the 50s and it was stoic.

It's about me. I show up and I am

responsible in ways that our younger

guys are less responsible than our dads

were. That that's all true. Uh but you

know, I go out and I fight dragons and I

come home and where's my martini and

slippers? Then the 60s came on and

feminism and uh okay, it's okay to have

feelings. It's might even be okay to be

a little bit uh vulnerable.

Um, but it's still about me.

And

when I talk about progressive

masculinity, I want men who are

big-hearted, strong, connected, and

giving. And that's missing both in the

um traditional patriarchal model and in

many of the countercultural model. You

know what's missing in our culture? Uh

I'm going to fade back from men for a

moment and talk about generally. What's

missing in our culture generally is

relationality.

What's missing in our culture uh is the

beauty of connection. And look, you you

follow the science. I've been saying

this for 40 years and now the science is

really very clear. Being connected,

being intimate with yourself and with

others, uh that's what we humans are

born for. That's how we're designed.

We're pack animals. And the lack of

intimate connection uh is not only bad

for us psychologically, but I think it

was Vivic Murthy who quoted uh is as bad

as smoking a pack and a half of

cigarettes a day on your body. We are

born to be connected and related.

And

I wrote about male depression back in

the 90s.

Um what I said is the way we quote turn

boys into men is through disconnection.

We tell them to disconnect from their

hearts less so younger men disconnect

from others. That's being independent

and autonomous. And the cost of

disconnection is disconnection.

And some men have recovered more feeling

inside their skin, but they haven't

developed the art of connection. You

know, I deal with uh uh just like you

and many of your uh I deal with high

rollers in my in my practice. And one of

the things that I teach these guys is

the difference between gratification and

what I call relational joy.

Gratification is just what you think, a

short-term hit of pleasure. And our

culture loves gratification. And you

know, these captains of industry who

come in and fly their private planes in

to see me, they're all about

gratification and they've done

beautifully at it. You know, they're

rich, they're powerful. That's great in

this place. I'm I like pleasure. There's

a deeper pleasure that I call relational

joy. And you get that as a parent.

Sometimes your kids are gratifying.

Sometimes you want to throw them through

the goddamn window. But if anybody said,

"Hey, we could do a time machine and you

don't have to have this deck yet because

there's a deeper down joy in just being

there and being connected, just being in

the relationship." And that's been lost

in our culture. We live in an anti-

relational narcissistic culture. And

even though some of the terms of

patriarchy have moved, the narcissism

and the lack of relationality has not

moved. It's just a different variation.

>> There's a lot there. And I I want to um

make sure I ask about this notion of

emotional experience and expression from

men. Um,

seems like a very important topic to to

parse because

indeed it it seems that

men now are thanks to your work and and

others are hearing that it's important

to feel to feel.

>> Yeah.

>> That feelings are not just okay, they're

encouraged um that if you bottle them

in, you know, we used to hear about this

in the context of the impact on heart

health, right? type A, type B, like if

you go back and look at the it was it

was almost like a mask for this other

thing. It's still true. You know, you

can destroy your heart by smoking

cigarettes and all this other stuff, but

it was really it was about the those

that original typing of people who tend

to die early from heart attack. It was

the people who hold it inside. It was

about people who who manage a lot, do a

lot,

>> but hold inside. And it's kind of

interesting because the ones that turned

out, and I'm not suggesting people do

that, screamed and yelled a lot. that

that catharsis actually helped them in

terms of longevity. Not saying you

should go scream at people um but Steve

Jobs used to um be a big proponent of

scream therapy and um you know and just

getting out there and and and

vocalizing. But the I think that the

real that the question that's in my mind

is okay so if it's important to feel

then let's just do this as a decision

tree. Okay. So I think if we agree men

need to feel their feelings. Yes.

>> Then the question becomes should they

feel those alone or in the presence of

someone else? And I'm guessing there's a

case for both.

>> But then at what point

>> does one uh not have this um what you

refer to as emotional privilege where

it's like putting it on someone else to

take care of them. Could you give an

example of what healthy expression of an

emotion is? Let's keep this in the

context of heterosexual couple for

simplicity. Obviously it carries over.

>> Sure.

>> Um

>> what is an example of healthy emotional

expression? Let's say sadness, deep

sadness

>> or frustration and sadness.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> in the presence of a partner.

>> Yeah.

>> That doesn't bring about this thing of

of that they're regressing and are some

now becoming a child.

>> Yeah.

>> What does that look like?

>> It looks like a negotiation and not a

demand. Could you tell me more?

>> Yeah. Because even in our I'm going to

push us. Even in our talk,

I don't care about the feelings.

I care about the connection.

What what will make us men healthy is

connection.

So, yeah, great. Have your feelings. And

then what are you going to do with them?

Uh uh

I I uh I used to have no feelings and

now I have feelings all over the place

and I don't give a about you and

your feelings. I want you to pay

attention to me and my feelings. Well,

is that a step up? I mean, a little bit,

but it's not where I want to leave you.

Uh so, what I want men to move beyond is

our selfishness.

And because it's in our interests to

move beyond our selfishness

and so recovering feeling being stoic or

having feelings. Sure. That's good.

That's important. The way we connect is

through feelings. The way we connect is

through vulnerability. So I was nervous

coming here talking to you.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Me?

>> Yeah. Well, I hard to imagine, right?

But it's true.

>> Well, it's true. I I spent a lot of time

here, so it's it's a very familiar

place. But I I would hope that's not

because uh I'm intimidating. No, it's

not that. It's more like um there are a

lot of people listening to us right now.

>> Oh, yeah. Who are intensely interested

in these issues. Men and women, young

and old, are really interested in these

issues.

>> Yeah. As we should be.

>> And not just because men are killing

themselves more. That too. But also

because as you pointed out, we are a

oldw world primate species and we are

not going to go back to living in

troops. Sorry folks.

>> No. My colleague,

>> I like to consider him a friend as well,

Bob Sapolsky. You know, we talk about

this from time to time. It's like, yeah,

that's how we evolved. Guess what,

folks? There's no little village where

everyone moves to.

>> I know.

>> It's not happening.

>> I know. Well,

>> but we are also very adaptable old world

primates.

>> That's true.

>> So, but but that the circuitry is not

going anywhere. We It's a need. So, if I

could

hopefully you're not feeling nervous

anymore, but [laughter]

>> Well, but let me ask you a question.

>> Yeah. Because what I did is I called our

mutual friend Bea.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And I said I was nervous.

>> Is that right?

>> Yeah.

>> And she's wonderful.

>> Yeah. And she said he's wonderful. Let

me tell you about Andrew and what's

going to happen. And she like read me

through the whole thing. And little uh

I'm not going to get into it, but my

fears about well we're going to disagree

about this and No, you're not. Let me

tell you how it is. And after I was done

talking to her, I was chilled.

Uh that's a that's a blessing that what

men lose when we don't uh uh when we're

not in touch with our vulnerabilities is

we lose the capacity to ask somebody to

help them but it's ask someone not

demand and it's also reciprocal. It's

not you know then Bea started talking

about her relationship and I started

supporting her and that's a relationship

and yes I want men to come out of the

straight jacket and have feelings. I

want us to be whole and own our human

vulnerabilities,

but in a context

in a context in which we're connected to

other people and we're neither cut off

from them nor are we imposing on them,

but we've learned the art and it's

virtually lost of how to be with simply

how to be with how to ask them to be

with us and how to reciprocate and be

with them, you Well, so many women are

angry at us. I mean, I deal I'm the

medic in the gender war, you know. I I

deal my beat are couples on the brink of

divorce that no one else has been able

to help. That's my specialty. And um

it's like

we just don't know. I have a saying, and

I may get into the trouble, but it's a

broad generalization, but clinically I

like to say an angry woman is a woman

who doesn't feel heard. And so many men

are like, "What is going on here? My

marriage isn't that bad, but if you

could just get her off my back, I don't

understand what the problem is." Uh, and

you we're hit with an angry Well, I'll

double back on this, but we're hit with

an angry woman and we either push back

or get defensive or withdrawal. I have

to lead men by the hand. Let me teach

you something. Tell me why you're angry.

Tell me what you would like.

Let me give you, unless it's jumping off

the bridge. I I have a saying. I know

how you can disarm an angry woman in

five seconds 50% of the time, which is

better than you're doing. Okay. How do

you do it? Give her what she wants. Let

me ask you what's going on with you and

do what I can to help out. This is a

skill that's brand new for our culture.

And it it if I may, it doubles back on

the central issue which I hope we get to

of men and self-esteem

because most men in our culture have no

idea what healthy self-esteem looks

like. Well, we uh self-esteem

comes from the inside out. I have worth

because I'm here and I'm breathing. I

don't have to earn it. I can't add to

it. I can't subtract from it. You know,

it's democracy. My worth is no better or

worse than yours. I'm born with it. Men

are taught outside in self-esteem and

it's mostly performance. I have worth

because of what I can do. I have big

muscles. I can land I can give my wife

an orgasm. I can land this job. I can

hit this homer.

That's great when you perform well, but

when you don't perform well, you go into

shame. What happened to your worth? And

so healthy self-esteem, if I may, and I

may double back and talk more about it,

which I have to teach men, is the

capacity to feel proportionally bad

about bad behavior. I screwed up. I hurt

you. I'm sorry. And at the same time,

hold yourself in warm regard as the

imperfect person. And what what we do is

we either don't feel bad about bad

behavior. That's shameless. That's

grandiose,

sociopathic even. Or if we do feel bad,

we go right into shame. I'm a useless

piece of I feel terrible. I have

to teach men to come up out of shame and

not be obsessed with the, you know, one

of the things I say is when you go from

shameless bad behavior, irresponsible,

selfish, insensitive to, oh my god,

that's terrible. I'm a big I

should just beat the hell out of myself.

You're you're trading one form of

self-reoccupation or guess what? Another

form of self-p preoccupation. I

definitely want to get into self-esteem,

but I just want to um for my sake and

for some of the listeners, make sure

that I summarize uh two what I think are

conclusions and then you can modify

these

>> as it relates to expression of emotion

which which you I and I totally agree. I

mean, you have to be able to feel your

feelings. If for no other reason, one

good reason, great reason to get started

on that trajectory is it's great for

your physical health. It's also great

for your mental health and your

relational health, but oftentimes um as

you know um men need to be kind of like

led to the trough for for a particular

carrot and then there additional carrots

in there. But it's holding everything

inside will kill you.

>> Yes, it will kill you.

>> And it makes everyone else around you

miserable too even if you think you're

protecting them from it. But as you very

importantly pointed out, it can't be a

dumping of emotion on other people. So

what I heard from you was a at least two

very healthy ways to engage emotionally

for men is one to ask for help.

>> Yeah. And the help from your example,

you're referring to also a very talented

therapist, Bea Voce, uh when you called

Bea was to ask for help by expressing

what is on your mind as the point of

concern. Like one is nervous or one is

sad or um and

>> and I think in my experience, women

naturally reach out to help when you

couch.

>> Everybody does, right? And then the

>> Can I slow that down for a second,

Andrew?

What we have is what what I call the

icorus syndrome. In the absence of

worthiness,

so many of us feel we have to earn love.

We have to earn worthiness

and and I like to say guys leave their

wives. I'll be heterero for a moment.

Guys leave their wives and kids go fly

off into the sun to be worthy of love.

And meanwhile, their wives and kids are

saying, "Where the hell is dad? What

what's going on here?" Well, I I'm off

trying to win your love. Well, sit down

and play Monopoly with us for Christ's

sake. You don't have to do that. It's

like it's a bill of goods. It's it's a

scam that we've all bought. Just sit

down and be still and be connected.

That's all you need to do. But we don't

we're not taught that,

>> right? And uh we'll get back to this

later, but the the demands of also and

the joy frankly of being a provider and

protector

many times, not always, involve having

to leave the home and go do work. And

frankly,

all my friends with kids and uh you

know, and I've certainly experienced

this. It's when you're not able to be

home because you're working, it's it's

it's this weird pain. It's like because

you I certainly love my work. Being a

provider is wonderful and at the same

time there's this pain of not being able

to be there for things and we can get

back to that. but asking for help and

then in terms of

responding in a in the in a non-gressive

non um

uh you know entitled way privileged way

as you said is

when a woman is upset the words what do

you need? H that is water in the desert.

>> And uh perhaps also what do you need

from me right now?

>> What do you need from me right now?

>> Okay, great. I'm just trying to um put

some structure on this because as there

is also something about the Y chromosome

like we respond well to simple

instructions.

>> Okay, I'll take that.

>> I I I believe that I have a whole theory

about why chromosomes and and how men

evolve to be the way that we are. We can

talk about maybe at the end for fun

because it's somewhat facicious but not

really. And then the the next thing that

you were saying, and I think this is so

critical about self-esteem,

is the ability to

accept responsibility when we screw up

and at the same time not

take ourselves into a place of shame, to

be able to still hold on to one sense of

goodness.

>> I'm a good guy who screwed up. I'm a

good guy who behaved badly. What if the

words coming at you are not of that?

It's not, "Hey, listen. I'm upset cuz

you really dropped the ball on this

thing." It's, "I'm upset cuz you really

dropped the ball on this thing." And

you're and it becomes character uh, you

know, characterological

assassination.

>> Yeah.

>> That takes an extra level of work.

>> It does.

>> And in that case, is your recommendation

to try and counter that or to just sit

with it and do the work internally to

say that's not true? Well, good luck

countering it. How's that working?

Listen, uh, this is a trap. And look,

I'm a First of all, the thing is this,

the lack of self-esteem leads us guys to

be unaccountable in our relationships.

When we're confronted with an

imperfection,

we're going to go into shame. We don't

have the capacity to feel

proportionately bad about the

imperfection. Okay, you're right. I

screwed up. What can I do to help? It's

like, oh, you mean I didn't hit a homer

and that means I'm a loser. And we

defend against the overwhelm of our own

lack of selfworth.

What do you mean I'm not perfect? We

defend against that awful feeling. And

it's an awful feeling by warding off the

criticism. Well, wait a minute. You have

to understand. Well, you I mean, you

know, we do all these defensive things

that women always complain we do and we

do because we're protecting oursel from

the overwhelm of getting swamped. I'm a

bad guy. So,

interestingly, I teach men self-esteem

as a way of helping them be accountable

in their relationship.

>> Interesting.

>> If you don't have healthy self-esteem,

you can't afford to be accountable

because it's too overwhelming to admit

how imperfect you are.

>> This is so important what you're saying.

Um,

also for people who aren't in romantic

relationship, for men it's so critical

because look, we could, in my mind, we

could easily transpose boss or feedback.

Absolutely. And there's I feel like, and

again, forgive me for kind of going slow

here. Um, but I feel like parsing some

of this into a structure is going to

help me and hopefully help other people.

They're kind of two forms of criticism

that perhaps I've experienced in life.

I'm being I'm joking. Of course I've

experienced it. One is

someone is upset about what I did.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. And I hear you loud and clear even

if it's coming at me with

characterological

assassination to have the internal

reservoir of self-esteem that I can hear

that what happens to us. And look, I

I've been married 40 years. It's me too.

We get caught in the horrible delivery

and we react to the horrible delivery.

You know, come on. It's not that bad. Or

well, hey, you're talking horrible.

[gasps]

Uh,

a black belt in a relational guy. You

duck under the horrible delivery. I'm

not saying it's not horrible. It is. But

you try and get to the point that the

person's trying to make. Why? It's

jiu-jitsu. You duck under the horrible

delivery. You deal with their ouch. And

guess what happens? They calm down.

>> Sure. You react to the horrible

delivery. That's exaggerated. Blah blah

blah. You're and well, you're off to the

races. So, but oh my god, what an

enlightened man. Your your partner or

your boss or your kid is saying, "You're

a shitty human being. You know, this

isn't about your bad behavior. You're

just a rotten person." That's shame. You

have enough boundaries. You have enough

self-esteem to go, "Well, they're being

abusive. This is not the best part of

them." But rather than react to that,

what are you so upset about, honey? What

can I give you right now? And oof, the

beauty of these skills is that they

work.

You know, you react to the bad behavior

on your partner's part and you're off.

This goes on for hours, days. You duck

under that and go, "Okay, you're upset.

What can I do to help you?" and you that

all of that toxicity just passes through

you. That's a real man. And it's like

something that could have been misery

for a day to a week, it it calms down in

10, 15 minutes because it's a good job.

And when I talk to guys,

I want to redefine

strength.

strength in the way we normally think

of, you know, it's it's the rumble and

you give me your best shot. I give you

my best shot. I like jiu-jitsu.

Duck under it. Duck under the wave. And

at the at the end, instead of saying, "I

was really strong. I didn't put up with

that I stood up." No, I want

you to say, "I was really elegant. I

just sidestepped that whole thing." And

what might have been a struggle that

would go on for days, I just diffused in

10 minutes. Aren't I cool? That's a real

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Two questions about this scenario that

we've kind of got um structured here. Um

there are at least two general types of

uh criticism. One is you did something

you screwed up.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it you screwed up. You you did the

wrong thing. You did the bad thing. You

did something poorly. The other is upset

about what you didn't do.

>> Okay.

>> And in my limit I'm not a clinician

obviously, you know, but in my um

limited number of uh interactions with

men where they they share about a

frustration could be from a boss, could

be from um a partner. [clears throat]

oftentime it's it's what about it's what

they didn't do.

>> Yeah.

>> And they'll confide that the reason they

didn't do it, the reason it seemed like

they didn't think about it is because

they are awfully busy doing all the

other things that come with being a

provider and a partner uh entails.

Um and there's the real world

constraints of time, right? And and so

it's not like, oh, you know, you forgot

the anniversary or you forgot the

present. It's not not this. It's the

it's the the things that never get asked

for that someone doesn't just naturally

see. But I'm a vision scientist first

and a neuroscientist second really. And

um we have giant blind spots about

certain things. Women see and hear

things that we just don't.

>> Yes.

>> And men see and hear things that women

just cannot see. No, you're not allowed

to say that. It's very politically

incorrect. But like men see things in

women that they can't see. Women see

things in men that they can't see. This

idea that women are all knowing and men

are dopes

>> is part of what it's part of what got us

here.

>> That's true. That's true.

>> You know, this notion of like, you know,

the Homer Simpson type thing,

>> you know. Um, now there are certainly

men like that, but I would say there's a

real world version of Homer Simpson that

was actually working very steadily at

his job trying to make things work, you

know, to, you know, uh, so when it comes

to dealing with criticism about what one

did not do,

>> yeah,

>> I can imagine same rules apply, but I

think it's only fair to say what

aspect of this falls on the partner and

the way They raise an issue.

>> Yeah,

>> obviously characterological

assassinations are not going to help.

>> They make the jiu-jitsu harder.

>> It makes it harder to accept

responsibility, but it's going to

happen. It's going to scale with how bad

the infraction was. Right. Okay. Um, but

what is a healthy delivery of a

criticism? Is it all eye statements? Is

it purely based on how one feels? Um,

I'm not trying to distribute

responsibility here, but let's be

honest, it's a two-way street.

>> It's more than a two-way street. And

again, let's own these are broad

generalities. We we both understand

that, but we we're speaking simply

because we got to start somewhere.

>> So, I teach women, too, how to be

relational. I'm not saying men aren't

relational, and women are. We're both

pretty screwed up in this in this

culture. And uh the the tough news for a

lot of women uh I I have 8 million

sayings and one of them is you don't

have the right to get mad about not

getting what you never asked for.

>> Could you repeat that?

>> You don't have the right to get mad

about not getting what you never asked

for. And that's a that's women stepping

out of their traditional role. What do

you mean I have to tell them? like

Prince Charming should just know if I

have to tell him it doesn't count. I

mean, I literally hear that. And you

know what I say is, "Well, gals, uh, uh,

Cinderella's dead. Uh, Prince Charming

probably just came out of rehab, and I

hate to tell you, but I know it's not

romantic, but if you want something from

your guy, you're going to have to roll

up your sleeves and fight for it. You're

going to have to assert what you want

and then teach him what you want." And

there are three steps of getting more of

what you want in a relationship. And

this particularly true for women because

they're the ones carrying the

dissatisfaction. One, dare to rock the

boat. Honey, this is really important to

me. I don't think you've been listening.

You better pay attention. Two, once the

guy is on board, okay, what do you what

do I need? Teach him. Don't expect them

to know. I've been listening to women

for 40 years tell me men don't know how

to be relational. Guess what? I believe

you. So, how are they going to know how

to be relational if you don't tell them?

Not that you're the objective teacher.

That's a trap. But subjectively with

humility, this is Sally instructions.

This is what I want from you to make me

happy. But roll up your sleeves and show

them what you want and then reward them

when they try and give it to you. People

don't do any of that in in this culture.

You know, the the concrete example is

uh John Gray, God bless him, made

millions of dollars on this. Men problem

solve listening and women want empathic

listening. There's nothing wrong with

either. What's wrong is it doesn't get

negotiated up front. So, I teach women

to say, "Listen, I'm going to talk to

you about a fight I had with a

girlfriend. 10, 15 minutes." First of

all, it helps to limit it. Guys here, we

have to talk. They think they're in to 4

in the morning. 15 minutes. In that 15

minutes, I want you to be like a

girlfriend. I want there. That sucks.

Tell me more about I want you to do

empathically. This is what it looks

like. We're passive in our

relationships. We let we let each other

do what we do and then we complain about

it. We can do shape it up. More

assertion up front, less resentment on

the back end. So roll up your sleeves

and teach your guy what you want. I

don't want you to solve my problems. I

want you to do this instead. as a favor

to me, would you do it? Not, I'm God's

gift to relationship. This is what you

need. No, as a favor to me, would you do

it? And then three, once the guy starts

to do it, encourage him. Don't

discourage him. We all, oh, too little,

too late. You did a half. I tell women,

celebrate the glass 14% full. It was

only 5% full a week ago. Hey, you did a

halfass job. Good for you. what are we

going to do to get the other half on? Uh

but we're discouraging people because we

don't want to be vulnerable and receive.

There's an art to receiving. So there's

an art on both sides of how to work a

relationship.

And um I have to teach women how to be

more um empowering of their partner and

less complaining of them. Uh, and I

believe in that and that's that's often

their work. Uh, but you can't sit around

and wait for your partner to do it

right. You have to be able to respond

whether on Tuesday they do it

beautifully. On Thursday, they're a

goddamn but you still have to

respond well. This is your own

integrity. And it's a great freedom to

uh take it upon yourself to behave with

integrity and skill

independent of what your partner's doing

on their side of the seessaw. It doesn't

always work, but it's your best shot.

And uh you don't have to be a slave to

their immaturity. If every time they're

immature, you jump in the mud pit with

them. You're a flag in their wind. It's

liberating. You're immature right now.

I could be immature five minutes from

now, but I'm going to meet your

immaturity with my maturity right now.

That is a very beautiful thing.

Amazing. uh question about

childhood

patterns, but rather than get right into

the parents piece of it,

>> Mhm. which I want to um have this very

crude model in my head that goes

something like we all have an like an

inner child or a childlike part of

ourselves and there's a healthy part and

an unhealthy part because it's kind of

wonderful at least in my experience um

to be in the company of someone

especially a romantic partner where you

can be in your kind of like childlike uh

>> I call that the natural child

>> the natural child right it's healthy

it's explorative it's fun it's it's

sweet and um and um and sometimes it's

mischievous. Um I've certainly observed

that. Um

>> but it's lovable.

>> It's very lovable. Uh and then there's

the unhealthy uh child and that could

take the form of, you know, brattiness,

entitlement, um whatever, closing up. I

mean, it could be any variety of things.

Um

I imagine that a great number of people

listening to this conversation are in

relationship and a great number of them

are not. how much work and what kind of

work can be done to understand those two

parts of oneself on one's own maybe even

if you're in a relationship because uh

that unhealthy child is a very uh

dangerous thing to show up

>> yes

>> in relationship it can be very

destructive very fast

>> um so if I were a patient [laughter]

>> uh client I don't know what you call

them do you call them clients

>> customer no client

>> client if I were a client and I just

said okay yeah I I don't want to talk

about my parents parents right now. We

can do that later. Um, but I know the

healthy childlike part of myself and I

think I know the unhealthy one and then

like what's some good work that I could

do to have those understood and and have

them in their proper place.

>> Yeah.

>> So that I make sure that I keep like the

bad child like Andrew locked away and

the good child like Andrew

>> at appropriate times let him out to

play. Right. I mean, I'm very fortunate

that my girlfriend now like she's very

good at expressing that healthy child,

the natural child part of her and she's

also a woman and that part just shuts

down and then she can be in that mode or

and they uh you know I've seen this

before. It's really wonderful to

experience to and when those mesh very

seamlessly it's also just awesome.

You're like wow it's like total ninja

virtuoso of this.

>> Yeah.

>> Let's say I'm not then what does the

work look like? Okay. So, first of all,

it um you're in relationships. Anybody

listening to this podcast is in a

relationship. It may not be an intimate

sexual relationship, but you've got a

boss, you've got colleagues, you've got

aunts and uncles, you have cousins, you

have a dog. We're all embedded in

relationships. And the work is the same

uh no matter what. Uh relational skills

are relational skills. So, I don't care

whether you're single or whether you've

been married for 40 years. That's the

same thing that that's a. So here's my

model. That natural child, leave him be,

enjoy, let him play,

love him, enjoy him. That's our

creativity. And and interestingly

enough, that's erotic in the broadest

sense of the word. It's that's the life

force. That's spontaneity. And you know,

that's unhampered,

unwounded. Uh that's a beautiful part of

us. Um that's fine. Leave it alone.

Celebrate it.

What you call the unhealthy child.

Here's my model.

And uh interestingly, this jibes with

Dan Seagull, the neuro uh scientist. Um

so I talk about the wise adult part of

us, prefrontal cortex

that can stop and think and reason and

choose. That's the part I'm trying to

grow and cultivate and give skills to.

The issue is when the heat comes on uh

and it really has to do with trauma.

When something happens in the present

that is similar to what was dangerous or

injured us in the past could be a

violation, could be abandonment. It

could be either an act of uh

mistreatment or neglect. either

when something in the present, you know

this, of course, we don't remember

trauma, we relive it. So the combat bit

hears a car backfire and turns around

like she's got a gun in her hand. She's

not thinking, I'm walking down Main

Street remembering combat. She's in

combat. The the the present goes away

and it's subcortical lyic system amydala

and you get flooded.

That's what we call the wounded child.

Very young when I do experiential work

with somebody first minutes of life

through four or five years old. And

that's all feeling that that's the part

of you that just experienced it. Between

this very mature present-based part of

us and this totally flooded, very

primitive part of us is the part you

call the bad child. I call it the

adaptive child.

This is the you

that you learn to be to cope with

whatever was going on with you. And it's

neither, you know, fight, flight, or

fawn. Uh, it's automatic. It's

subcortical. And it's utterly

compelling. I've got to stand up for

myself. I've got to shut this down. I've

got to fix you if you're upset or I

won't. These are basic, you know, these

are animal survival instincts.

And when you're in the adaptive child,

you won't use relational skills because

you're not interested in relationship.

You're interested in survival. It's

literally a different part of our

neurology.

And the work I do, I call it relational

mindfulness.

When you're flooded, you got to bring

the prefrontal cortex back online. Take

a walk. Take 10 breaths. Go around the

block. Take a break. I'm a big fan of

breaks. Get reentered in the more

thoughtful, non- flooded part of you.

Dan calls it the responsive brain

instead of the reactive brain. When

you're reentered, I call it remembering

love. You remember the person you're

talking to as someone you care about.

Then you go back and you you you try.

But we all struggle with these adaptive

child parts. I deal with couples on the

brink of divorce. Almost all of them

have been living in their adaptive child

thinking that that's an adult. And the

world will reward you. The world will

reward an adaptive child, but you'll

make a hash in your family life. So

fight,

flight, or fix. Anybody listening today,

when you're flooded, when you're an

automatic, because that's the hallmark

of the adaptive child is automatic.

Fight, flight, or fix. What are you and

what's your partner? And then what's the

dance between you? The more I fight, the

more they fix. The more they fix. Okay.

The way out of this is to bring your

thinking brain back online. And the the

beauty here is that capacity. I call it

relational mindfulness. That capacity to

remember to think to bring yourself back

into the present can be cultivated and

grown. So can I give you a story? Enough

talk. Let me tell

>> I I I Yes, please. Uh before I just want

to make sure I ask one question about

when one enters this adaptive child. I

think that's how the which is reactive

in the moment at worst and one can learn

to dance with that and uh turn on their

prefrontal cortex and and remind

themselves this is a relationship that I

care about and there's etc. um taking

space a break is is something

>> essential

>> is essential.

>> What's the best way to ask for that?

Because here's perhaps something I've

observed. Um

things are getting ratcheted up

internally, maybe both people, and

you need space.

>> Yes. You ask for space like, "Hey, I I

need to take a break to be able to hear

this." Or and then the other person gets

very upset because it activates their

sense of abandonment.

>> Exactly.

>> And it runs countercurrent to this idea

that we need to stand in the face of it,

jiu-jitsu it, etc. Like that it's a it's

a pause. We're not talking about like,

hey, I'm leaving for a week. We're not

talking about I'm leaving for an hour

even. It's just need to decompress this.

Um,

if that's met with additional criticism

about the request, um, that can be

problematic.

>> Yeah. And common is mud. So, here's what

you do.

Contract for it when the heat is not on.

Listen, honey. I get flooded and you

don't want me flooded. I'm not nice. I

won't be nice. I won't be skilled when

I'm flooded. I need to collect myself.

It's in your interest to let me go

collect yourself.

Um, I have a skill for everything. And

this is a skill I call responsible

distance taking. Most of us take

unilateral. I'm just I'm gone. No, I'm

gone. Here's why. And here's when I'm

coming back. It's not a rupture. It's a

break. So, if I have a partner who's

vulnerable to abandonment,

if I go, I'm gone. Boom. They're chasing

me.

This is a good example of relational

skill. If I want distance, let me take

care of my partner so she'll give me

distance. If I don't take care of you,

I'm going to get chased. Is in my

interest to behave with skill. So I say

to you, when we're not flooded,

let's have a contract. I get flooded. We

don't like it when I get flooded. I want

to take a break. Here's what it looks

like. 15, 20 minutes and then I'm back.

If I'm not in control, I'll text you or

call you and say, "I need another I'll

negotiate with you, but I'm not going to

leave you. I'm not going to be

irresponsible. It's not unilateral and

it's not forever. I will be back.

What do you need in order to be calm

enough to let me go?"

Uh, and nine out of 10en times is like,

"This contract is fine. Remind me of the

contract. I'm taking a time out so I can

be with you.

20 minutes I'll be back. Here's why.

Here's when I'm coming back." Okay. No

abandonment. Leave those steps out. You

get abandonment. So, it's a really good

example of how using relational skills

in your interests.

>> That's very helpful. Thank you. I also

realize that how resourced

one shows up to interactions like this

is a big part of it. I mean, if you're

sleepd deprived, overworked. I mean,

you've got stuff coming at you from

other angles. kid has been up all night,

you know, it financial issues, you know,

if the well is low,

um, access to these skills becomes

infinitely harder

>> harder and

I don't believe in pleading special

circumstances. This is relentless.

You don't get a pass. I don't care if

you're up all night with the kids. I be

be immature. be unskilled.

I I can understand why you would be and

brother, you'll pay the price. So, yeah,

I get it. You're sleepd deprived. It's

harder to be mature. And when you behave

immaturely, this is the crap you're

going to wind up with. It's instant

karma. So, the beauty in this is

remembering it's in my interest to

behave artfully. It's not for them. And

one of my sons is uh in residency right

now and he's out of his mind and he's

sleepd deprived. And so we don't hear

from him for, you know, a week. And um

uh and his mom calls. I'm worried about

you. I've been calling. You don't text.

I'm worried you're like dead on the

street. You know, I know I'm crazy, but

I'm worried about you. He says, "You

know, I called

uh and you you weren't there." I said,

"Well, did you leave a message?" "No." I

said, 'Well, why didn't you leave a

message? You don't understand what it's

like in I didn't have it in me. And

okay, listen, pal. Leave a 10second

message. I'm alive. I'm fine. Don't

worry about me. You'll you'll wind up

having less to deal with. If you put 10

seconds into it, then if you don't put

the 10 seconds into it, and then you've

got mom on the phone talking to you for

20 minutes about, you know, why can't

you be a more responsible? It's up to

you. But it's an investment in your

future, your well-being. It's what the

prefrontal cortex knows that the lyic

system doesn't is it's in my interest to

behave well because I'll get less

for it. I don't mean to jump into family

matters, but uh having come from the not

medical but science profession, your son

had some overlap with places I've been

and people we know. Um I don't know him,

but I'm about to advocate for him here.

I I suspect maybe ask him. I suspect

that the

>> could be wrong, but part of the reason

he didn't leave a message is when you

get like your son got three degrees from

>> an elite university. He is a doing his

residency in medicine. Uh he's clearly a

high achiever. Uh and he's involved in

other things as well. Um

>> the 10-second message is very hard for a

high achiever. It's like you either do

things really well or you don't do them.

And this is I I'm probably just

projecting myself into this here.

Sometimes the reason I don't respond to

things is I'm like, I can't do it well.

So I'm not going to do it at all. They

told us that if you're not going to do

something well, don't do it. You know

how you do one thing. And it turns out

it's so silly, right? Because not doing

it for 10 seconds is clearly way worse

than doing it 10 seconds becomes perfect

under the circumstances. But high

achievers don't hear that. So here I am

advocating for your son. I don't even uh

[laughter]

really know him. But but I'm going to

but and I don't do it because I want to

bail him out. I think everything you're

saying is is spoton. I just what I felt

in that example like oh gosh like I

can't help but I know that feeling. You

want to do it so badly, but you don't

want to do it poorly, so you don't do

it.

>> Yeah. But that's not relational. Sure.

And medicine is saturated with

patriarchy. This is all, you know, the

hazing that goes on. This is all

masculinity. It's just like boot camp.

And for the Marines and this notion that

you either do it excellently or you

don't do it all is another, it

deprivives us of being human beings with

each other. It's it really gets in the

way.

So, yeah, you're right. I'm sure that's

what he's thinking. And also, take a

step back. What is in my interest? A

10-second message or a 20-minute

conversation? I'm busy. What do I want

to do here? And this is how we have to

start thinking. We we're we're not

individuals.

That's the great fallacy. We're living

in a context.

>> Our relationships are our biospheres.

We're not we're not separated from them.

We're in them. And it's in my interest

to do what the biosphere needs because

I'm incited.

That's the new news. That's my message

to the world. The great mistake this

culture has made. the the father of

family therapy, Gregory Bas, an

anthropologist married to Margaret me,

genius man, called it humankind's uh

epistemological philosophical mistake

that we stand outside of nature. You

know, I get these big burly I tough I I

I deal with tough guys. I get these gly

why should I have to work so hard to

please my wife? I go knock you live with

her. It's like we have lost the wisdom

of ecology. You're in this together. You

know, indigenous people around the world

understand this. We don't. We're not

above nature dominating it. And for

traditional women, we're not below

nature upregulating it enabling code.

No, we're in it. is in my interest to do

what the biosphere needs because I'm

breathing it. This is a whole new world

for most of the people that I work with.

And by the way, this to me is the

essence of the new masculinity

>> to understand life as a human as

relational

>> relational and ecological.

>> I'm not above it. I'm in it and I'm a

steward of it. It's in my interest to

give to my biosphere. That is wisdom.

>> There must be a place

for

men to develop some of these skills in

the company of other men because that

traditionally was the way it was done,

right? Even if we look back to the you

know um not so much the ' 40s um because

the world was in a different sort of

duress um but in the 50s and 60s um

there was a certain kind of socializing

that

>> men did. It was

>> still today.

>> It was it was often around alcohol um

>> and sports.

>> Yeah. Brief brief uh anecdote around

that. When I started graduate school, um

it was amazing that every Friday they

would do a seminar and then people they'

have some food and people would go home.

And I was told by a chair of department,

he said, "Do you know that for something

like 30 years in this room, it was

called the beach room named after Frank

Beach at at UC Berkeley, one of the

great biocsychologists and

endocrinologists.

Frank Beach and colleagues would get

together. It was all men then. um

every single evening, not Fridays, every

single evening and get trashed.

>> Yeah.

>> And then basically stagger home to their

families. This was like how it was done.

>> Yeah.

>> Very very different time. And it was

standard.

>> It was standard. People smoked men

smoked and drank and then

>> got drunk and went home. Okay. That was

real.

>> And

obviously that's not the way it is now.

And I said, "Well, what would you guys

talk about?" And you imagine that it

would all be about, you know, um kind of

like fraternity talk and locker room

talk. He said, "No, we would talk about

science. We'd talk about grants." Um

occasionally people would talk about

what was going on with their families,

but I said, "Why did people do it?" And

he said, "It just felt really good to be

able to relax and say whatever you

wanted." Obviously, there were no phones

then or even the internet. And it was

kind of an end of day catharsis. And I

said, "On average, do you think those

men showed up drunk? Obviously, better

or worse when they got home?" And he

said, "Oh, that was our therapy. That

was absolutely our therapy." Now, I

don't doubt that there were elements of

abuse and all sorts of things that go

with alcoholism. I've been very vocal

about the fact that I'm I'm discouraging

of people to drink, certainly if they

want to be healthier in very very low

moderation perhaps, but zero is better

than any. But where do men go now to

relate to one another in a way that

builds healthy relating

with romantic partners? Builds healthy

relating at work because I'll tell you

just even the notion I know because I've

been told just the notion of men

gathering scares the hell out of a lot

of people. The immediate assumption is

when guys get together bad things

happen. This is this is the idea. But I

also think that we've um

erased some very powerful vessels for

self-standing and for relating and for

and also for throwing off some of the

stresses of the day that frankly don't

need to walk in the door at home. And so

guys are trying to do it all alone or on

their phones. And then people wonder,

and there are a lot of reasons for this,

but then people wonder why there's so

much dissociation and distraction and

and worse by way of social media. It's

like if guys can't hang out and talk,

they not say drink, but if they can't

hang out and talk, then how are they

supposed to be their best selves when

they go back to their families?

>> You're dead right. And you know, we talk

about the epidemic of loneliness. We're

talking about men,

you know, um heterero couple, uh the the

man dies, women do okay. The woman dies,

men are in deep trouble. The single men

uh are the greatest public health crisis

uh around. And we've talked about

relational skills with your family, your

woman, your partner if you're gay. Um,

how about relational skills with pals?

And I work with men around getting

friends.

Uh, many of the men that I work with

have few to no friends. And I have, it's

part of my therapy. I want you to start

having friends. And I want them deeper.

And I teach men. Okay. So, the six guys

you go golfing with and you talk about

sports and politics and maybe

about your wives a little bit.

I I I want you to try pick one

that you think might be most receptive

and share something a little more

vulnerable with them. You know, I've

been

uh I've had chronic back pain and I'm

I'm getting old.

It's a little scary. Or if you're a

young man, I've been out of work for 14

months and I'm getting show some vulner

Oh yeah, what about those socks? Well,

he ain't having it. Okay, nice

experiment. You're done with Steve. Go

back to your superficial relationship.

Enjoy it. [gasps] You talk to Dave and

Dave, you know, I can really hear you,

man. That's tough. I I've been worried

too about blah blah blah blah blah my

dick ain't working the way it used to

and all of a sudden you're having a

hearttohe heart in a way that you may

never have had in your life before. So I

teach men to experiment and to try and

drive their relationships deeper by

sharing more and seeing what they get.

It's not a shoe in this guy may be great

that you have to be discriminating.

It's just in brain death. Protect

yourself. Be discriminating, but also be

courageous. Open up and try a little

more. Uh the crisis of men being alone

and not having other men to support them

and share uh is one of the great

problems in modern society. Uh on the

other hand, [snorts] I had the privilege

of being and many of your uh listeners

are too young for this, but uh there was

a great guy, Robert Bllye. Uh he wrote

Iron John and he was a

>> great book.

>> Yeah. And amazing book.

>> He was like the Mr. Men's movement, guys

drumming in the woods.

>> And I went to Moose uh Lodge and I was

invited.

>> So you met him? I did one of the one of

the men's weekends drumming in the woods

with Robert and the guys.

>> I I love the book. I think that has some

brilliant insight about um all boys's

relationship to their fathers, even if

they didn't know their fathers. And uh

there's this wonderful

and terrifying passage in there.

Wonderful because it's so astute.

terrifying because it's terrifying which

is it is the places of absence of the

father that the demons enter a young

boy.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's absolutely true.

>> And something like that. And Bllye is a

great writer and I didn't capture it

well. But that whether or not someone

had a close relationship with their

father and he was very present or they

didn't there there are these like um I

think of them as actual like physical

shards of of shadow

>> a wound,

>> right? that that that's where addiction

shows up later. That's where all sorts

of things show. It depends on the

circumstances. But BL Bllye um BL was

really ahead of his time. It's awesome

that you trained with him.

>> Yeah. No, we dance we did Sufi dances

together and

>> Oh, so he was into the hippie thing too.

>> Drumming in the woods and and he was

tribal.

>> Tribal. So forgive me. I wasn't trying

to be pjorative. I'm from Palo Alto. The

Grateful Dead are from Palto. I get a

hippie pass.

>> Anyway, listen. Um, so there was a

wonderful shaman. I got to tell you this

story. We've been so straight, but I

just love this story. So he brought in

BL um adolescence. He had all these guys

boomer guys in their 50s and 60s, me

included. And he trucked in Bloods and

Crips,

not only teenagers, but teenagers from

urban gangs to do this thing. And he

really strongly believed that older men

needed to teach younger men how to be in

on the planet that there was an

initiation that was missing in our

culture. And Martin Prel the the shaman

as these kids were getting off the bus.

I love this. He told I wasn't there. He

told the story though I was in he he he

give me a sheet. He held out a big sheet

on the ground. He goes old cre shaman

custom. This is a sacred weekend. We

must divest of all metal. All metal goes

on the sheet. And these gang members are

like knives, brass knuckles, chains,

guns. All of their weapons were all

good. Good. There wasn't an old that's

It was just made up.

>> He was just divesting them of their

weapons for the weekend. But anyway, but

even there, I mean, you can go on

YouTube and see this. When I when it was

my turn to speak to the men, I said,

"This is beautiful what we're doing with

each other. It's beautiful. It's

necessary. And now we have to take it

home to our families. It's great for us

to be intimate with each other, but we

can't be intimate with each other for

the weekend and go home and be

to our wives and kids." It's an amazing

story at so many levels and it brings to

mind something I've been thinking about

for a number of years which is okay I

wasn't in a university fraternity but I

sort of uh I entered a fraternity of way

back when and got involved in

skateboarding when there were no parents

involved there no girls or women

involved there was like one or two but

it was like just a bunch of

>> guy territory

>> it was all guys and the interesting