When people come to train with me, I

said our objective is to get an exercise

and go to real muscular failure. You got

to give it more than it's used to. The

body does not want to change. It wants

to keep status quo. So you got to give

it a bloody good reason as we would say

in England to change, right? So you got

to put more stress on the body than it's

used to. And then you need to recover

from that. That's the idea to do enough

to stimulate but not more than that

because this is an overload you got to

recover from. And the number one thing

that I hear from people is I don't

really have time for that. I have a

business. I have a family. I said if you

could give me 45 minutes twice a week,

that's all you need to do. And it's not

theory because I've done it. You change

your life literally with that and a good

diet. So the whole time thing excuses,

it's not relevant. I'm not listening.

You don't need a lot of time.

>> Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dorian Yates. Dorian Yates is a

legendary six-time Mr. Olympia winner

who is also considered one of the

greatest pioneers of training methods

for bodybuilding health and fitness. He

is known for using and recommending low-

volume highintensity workouts, meaning

very few sets done with maximal focus,

perfect form, and directed muscle

engagement taken to muscular failure and

beyond. Today, Dorian teaches us how the

typical person who is not interested in

competitive bodybuilding should train

for health and fitness and overall best

results. We cover muscle building, fat

loss, mobility, what forms of cardio are

best, when to do them, and much more.

The advice Dorian provides today is

immensely valuable and applicable to

everyone, men, women, young, and old. He

explains how for most people, the best

muscle building and strength results

will be achieved by training no more

than three, and in some cases only two

days per week. Dorian also shares

valuable insights on how to mentally

frame and navigate your life and goals.

How to use your hardships as fuel. He

has a lot to say about that based on his

own experience, but also how to

recognize and lean into your natural

strengths. How to be practical in

choosing what dreams you chase and how

to know when to pivot from one endeavor

to another. We also discuss cannabis. In

fact, even though I of course knew he

was, Dorian and I first connected

because of an episode that I did about

cannabis. Both the potential benefits of

cannabis as well as the very serious

risks that may exist for certain people.

Dorian's experience and read of the data

on cannabis contrasted with mine. And

that led us to an ongoing discussion

that we continue today on the podcast

and that has me now reading into some

newer studies. And I promise that I'll

update everyone on my take of those

studies once I get through them. Oh yes,

and Dorian also took me through a Yates

style highintensity workout at Gold's

Gym Venice. We trained back, we filmed

it, and it's posted to our Eclipse

channel, so you can check that out. It's

linked in the show note caption. Before

we begin, I'd like to emphasize that

this podcast is separate from my

teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is, however, part of my desire and

effort to bring zero cost to consumer

information about science and science

related tools to the general public. In

keeping with that theme, today's episode

does include sponsors. And now for my

discussion with Dorian Yates. The Dorian

Yates. Welcome.

>> Apparently. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Uh certainly uh big fan for many

years. Thanks to you and thanks to Mike

Menser and a few uh at the time real

iconic class. Um I trained differently

than everyone around me told me to. And

while I never became a a competitive

athlete uh at anywhere near the level

that that you did certainly um it got me

the results I wanted so much faster. I

feel super healthy and great at 50. And

I really want to talk about this

highintensity, lowish volume training

that really um can be credited to you um

because for those that don't know uh the

community that you come from um there

have been people who have been big

proponents of long sessions, many hours

in the gym. At the opposite extreme,

there's been people such as Mike Mener

who have been proponents of very brief,

very high intensity, even one set to

failure and that's it. and you brought

things into some sense of moderation.

>> This is almost like a hybrid.

>> Yeah,

>> I guess.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> Between the purest

>> hit, which uh I mean I I didn't come up

with the idea. The guy that really

initiated the whole thing was Arthur

Jones, who was the guy that made the

Nautilus machines and then he passed it

on, right? And Mike Mensah made it more

popular because Mike Mensah was American

champion, Mr. universe and it was in the

magazines and um I read Arthur Jones's

books and I think I'm a logical thinker

so it made sense to me.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh but if it made sense to me and it

didn't work out practically, who cares,

you know? So like yourself, I was kind

of training like that and everyone was

telling me this is not the way to do it.

You need to train more often, uh do more

sets and so on. So I tried it and uh the

whole thing with my career is a bit like

a science experiment in a way that I

documented everything. So I've got every

workout. The first time I stepped in the

gym and said seriously, okay, I'm going

to train and uh I want to be a

competitive bodybuilder and this is how

I'm going to change my life and maybe

I'm going to get a gym or something like

that. That was about it at the time. But

I said, "Okay, so I'm tracking

everything. My progress is going really

well. I'm training like three times a

week for maybe 45 minutes, an hour, but

I'm working as well. I'm doing

construction. I'm doing some heavy jobs.

So, this is taking energy. Going well.

Going well. Okay, then let me try it.

Let me jack it up. And I'm train four

times a week. I do a little bit more.

What happened? Nothing. That's what

happened. Everything stopped

for three or four weeks. I cut it back.

Started growing again. So, I didn't

really need to learn that lesson too

many times. Um,

and I got to be British champion. I got

to be pro, turned pro. And, uh, I read

everything that Mike Mensah wrote in the

magazines and everything like that. And

got to meet him when I came out here and

we discussed training and so, okay, what

are you doing? You know, I'm warming up

whatever it takes, couple of sets. I'm

doing a set to failure and then I'm

resting two or three minutes, dropping

it down 10% maybe, and going to failure

again. So, I'm hitting that nail in

twice just to make sure it's it's in

there. So, Mike said, "Why don't you try

cutting back to one set to failure?" So,

I started that around 91 92 and I feel

like I got another, you know, another

level of growth from that. Um, so people

say, "Oh, Dorian doesn't do HIT." I

don't know what category we want to put

it in, but it's probably somewhere

between conventional bodybuilding and

the extreme of hit that Mike Mensah was

doing and uh, Arthur Jones, which would

be perfect for the average person. I

mean, Arthur Jones was doing like a

whole body workout couple of times a

week. That was his initial

recommendation.

And I agree for the average person

that's great because you want to build a

certain level of muscle mass for your

health,

but I was a competitive bodybuilder. So

you got to be concerned with a little

bit like, you know, side delts, rear

delts, average person could do one

shoulder exerciser would be enough. So

you need to do a little bit more as a

competitive bodybuilder. Um,

so somebody came up with a moniker blood

and guts. They saw my training. That

looks like blood and guts. So that's

what we called it. Um, so it's high

intensity training, a lot less than the

other guys were doing probably, but

maybe the hit purists will say, "Oh,

it's not." But it is what it is. And

it's all I've got it every workout

written down so people can see what I

did. And call it what you will, but you

know, it was briefer than everyone else

I was competing against. And it had an

effect. Although not everyone followed

what I was doing, but prior to myself

being successful, it was like six times

a week. Some people were doing twice a

day. Not very often to be honest.

There's a lot in the magazines.

Arnold promoted that a lot, right? But

if you look at Arnold, he was probably a

full size when he was 21, 22. He was

huge. How did he get there? He was bench

pressing 500. He was doing deadlifts. He

was doing squats, whatever. He built the

foundation. And I believe competitive

bodybuilders back then, they kind of use

the weights as a calorie burner as well.

So, they got the muscle mass, then

they're doing more volume and more sets

and more reps. And obviously, this is

helping to maintain the muscle while at

the same time burn a lot of calories.

So, I said, wouldn't it be better to do

the weight training just to build muscle

and maintain muscle and do some cardio

exercise to burn extra calories so then

you'll be able to recover properly? So,

that was my approach. So, it probably

falls somewhere in between the two camps

to be honest. Yeah, I remember trying

the one set to failure, a couple

warm-ups, one set to failure. You'd

pre-exhaust, you know, leg extensions

into leg press. And um it occurred to me

after about a year or two that I needed

to do a little bit more. I mentioned

that because I think um I'm like most

people in the sense that let me frame

this right. Um I could get certain

movements to really thrash the muscle

that I needed to with one or two sets,

but if there isn't really good mind

muscle connection and fiber recruitment,

you might need a bit more.

>> It's possible. Yeah. I mean, it's none

of this is written in stone. When people

come to train with me, I said, "Our

objective is to get an exercise and go

to real muscular failure. We'll need to

get there safely." So, we do a couple of

sets to warm up. But if somehow you

don't feel or I don't feel you nailed it

in that set, let's do another one. You

know, there's there's no law can't do a

little bit more. So, you are correct in

saying that somebody that's very

experienced, they got that mind muscle

connection where you can just link in

and you can fully destroy it. So it

depends on the person, but the idea is

to not do more than is necessary.

>> Mhm.

>> Because then you're going to find it

harder to recover. And the process is

stimulate, right? So you got to train,

you got to overload. And during this

process, you're not growing. You're

creating damage, stress to the muscle

that then has to recover and then

overcompensate.

So two things need to be in place. need

to be sufficient intensity or overload

or there'll be no reaction and then you

need to recover from that. And let's

just put it straight out there, man. You

know, there's a big difference between

somebody using anabolic steroids than

somebody that's not. So, somebody that's

using can recover from that process more

quickly than somebody that isn't. So, I

feel I should always say this because

when you're looking at a champion

bodybuilder, how he trains and you're

young guy trying to build up, that's

probably not appropriate for you right

now. That guy has already got the size

and is refining for a competition or

something. So, uh that's the idea to do

enough to stimulate but not more than

that because this is an overload you got

to recover from. So, you got to recover

before you grow as well. So, you don't

want to go back to the gym before that

whole process is uh has taken place. So,

I I use some simple analogies sometimes

when people are training with me, like

we're going in now, we're knocking a

wall down, right? We're rehabbing your

house, we're knocking a wall down, and

the guys need to come now with the

bricks. So, they need materials and they

need to do it, but they're halfway

through building that wall and you come

and knock it down again. We're not

getting anywhere, you know? So, that's

the process

>> that you kind of have to understand.

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to get up to $400 off. One of the um

really kind of unfortunate things about

resistance training is that it fills the

muscle with blood temporarily.

>> Yeah.

>> In part because of some quotes that came

from Arnold in pumping iron. the the

so-called pump is it's an illusion,

right? It's transient. And while it can

be helpful in letting you know that you

targeted a given muscle correctly,

>> I think people get addicted to that

feeling, but they're not realizing that

the damage to the muscle tissue that

then is allowed to recover is what makes

the muscle actually larger when you're

outside of the gym.

>> A pump is just a temporary extra blood

flow to the area that feels good. you're

pumped up, you feel tight, but you could

get a lightweight and get a great pump.

It's not going to stimulate any growth.

So, don't be fooled by the pump. It's

nice and it's part of the process, but

you got to overload the muscle. You got

to give it

uh more than it's used to. The body does

not want to change. It wants to keep

status quo. So, you got to give it a

bloody good reason, as we would say in

England, to change, right? So, you got

to put more stress on the body than it's

used to. Otherwise, you won't adapt. So

even if it's like, you know, half a

pound more or one rep more, it's got to

be something more that the body says,

"Hey, th this stress, I can't handle it.

I need to reinforce myself and adapt to

this stress so next time it won't be so

stressful." That's basically the the

process. So, and it can't be

linear forever, right? Maybe in your

first year of training, first 18 months,

you just go in like I put 20 25 pounds

on in the first 18 months that I was

training.

and natural as well. So you you know it

becomes a case of diminishing returns

though

>> and at some point you can't just keep

going up like this. So I tell people

train real hard for like five or six

weeks and then come down for two weeks

maybe submaximal.

>> So you'll sort of saw to it like that

hard for five or six weeks then back

off. And during that two weeks are you

telling people to stay out of the gym

entirely?

>> No. I'm telling them you can go in and

do some light weight like but nowhere

near failure blood flow keep the

maintenance if you want to take a week

off I think is good couple of times a

year a lot of guys when I had a gym you

know the guys I'm stuck on this and that

I said okay take a week off

>> no what do you mean I said man just take

a week off yeah come back in a week and

tell me how you feel and I came back and

I was stronger I was like yeah no [ __ ]

man

>> because you've rested you let your body

rest and rebuild so that be a lesson to

So, if I could travel back in time, I

wouldn't have called the movie Pumping

Iron. I would have called it Stress and

Adapt. Stress stress recover adapt.

>> Not quite so sexy. Like I feel like I'm

coming.

>> But that whole notion of the pump plus

this idea that um you know many many

hours in the gym is what's required. I

think if it kept a lot of the general

public out of resistance training.

>> I think now that's changed. Um and

fortunately because I think it it is

very beneficial. Um, if we could get a

little granular about training and

recovery, I think it'd be helpful for

people. I realize that you laid out the

top contour uh really nicely. So, for a

person who's natural, not taking hormone

replacement therapy or anabolics, um,

you think two maybe three whole body

sessions to start out to learn the

movements? Um, is that doing one or two

sets to failure? What does that look

like for the for the raw beginner? a raw

beginner first of all you need to learn

how to do the movements correctly before

let's thinking about going to failure.

So it'll be a certain period of time

learning to do the exercise correctly.

Uh

putting some kind of idea in their head

of what's going on.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh you know what do the pecs do? Bring

your arms down and across the body. What

do your lats do? They bring your upper

arm down and back. So, you'll be amazed

like if your nephew are pro

bodybuilders, some of them don't know

like why they're doing what they're

doing. What's the mechanics involved?

And I get them to do light sets very

perfect. Do you feel that? Do you feel

how it contracts when you lats and you

squeeze and you contract? Yeah, I feel

it. Feel it. Okay, now you got it. But

you've got to try to maintain that

>> when it gets really hard because

we're going against the natural

mechanics of the body here, right?

Because we're, as I say, we're doing

chest. Yeah. Trying to isolate the pecs.

There's some delts involved and triceps

and work that or we're working legs,

we're working back. The body normally

doesn't work like that. It works as a

unit, right? If you throw something, you

don't do that from your tricep, right?

It'll be from your foot through the

hips, through the shoulder, whole body

thing. So, when the exercise gets really

hard, your brain is going to try to

recruit or change the exercise to make

it easier. So, I got to get people to

override that instinct. Just stick with

the form

>> until we get to the point where you

can't do anymore and understand, you

know, that's why I get them to do light

stuff at first to really feel it,

understand. I explain what's going on.

Couple of weeks after that, we can start

pushing to failure. Actually, I had a

guy recently that we had a business

meeting and he told me he was diabetic

and he had liver problems and he was

overweight and this and that. I gave him

a challenge.

I said, "He trained with me for a month.

I'll fix all that shit." Yeah. Oh, but

my doc took this and that. I said,

"Listen, he trained with me three times

a week for about 45 minutes. After one

month, obviously, I changed his diet as

well. Basically, for a short period of

time, very low carbs. Uh after one

month, he was not in the diabetic zone.

He was out of the pre-diabetic zone. It

was in the normal range.

>> Great. and his liver function that was

three times the normal amount liver

enzymes was back to normal.

Uh I told him, "Check it out. You got a

fatty liver." So yeah, I had a fatty

liver. I said, "I know." He said, "My

doctor told me not to eat fat." I'm

like, "Man,

do you know how long, at least I don't

know here, but in England, how long an

MD, a doctor spends studying nutrition?"

>> Yeah, it's trivial.

>> One afternoon, two or three hours. I

mean, you can learn nothing. So, the

doctor was telling me he's got a fatty

liver, so stop eating fat. I said,

that's absolutely the worst advice you

could get because the reason you've got

fatty liver is because uncontrolled

blood sugar.

>> So, we get your blood sugar down.

>> One month,

>> his liver was normal. His blood sugar

was normal.

He lost like five, six kilos of body fat

just in a month. And we're doing three

times a week,

>> whole body.

>> Uh, we split it up actually into three

workouts. So, he's hitting everything uh

once a week.

>> When our uh mutual friend, you knew him

better than I did, uh the now deceased,

unfortunately, Mike Mener, told me to

train each body part once per week.

>> At first, I thought he was crazy. So,

legs once a week, calves once a week,

maybe twice for some people, the calves,

but um shoulders and arms and chest and

back on three separate days. Legs, chest

and back,

>> shoulders and arms. I thought he was

crazy, but then, you know, I thought

about it and the chest and back workout,

you're indirectly targeting the arms. Y

>> legs is a if you do them right is a

whole body experience

>> and uh stress on a lot of stress on your

nervous system which has to recover

independently of the whatever muscle

group you're training um if you do legs

I mean really to failure there's a lot

of stress on your nervous system as well

so that also has to recover that's why I

say after 6 weeks I've just noticed with

myself and many people it seems to like

you hit a plateau there so try to push

through it

>> come down and I take a rest and

>> uh go again later.

>> So, I know that your your opinion on

real world results versus um uh

laboratory studies, but these days, let

me just put something out there. I'd

like to see your response. These days,

uh you know, people will talk a lot

about, okay, the studies or muscle

biopsies show you train a muscle and

stimulate uh hypertrophy, growth, and

then muscle protein synthesis peaks, you

know, 48 hours later, which means that

you can hit the muscle again, ideally 3

days later or two days later. I tried

that because I thought, "Hey, listen.

I'm a scientist. I'll try it." And I

immediately started going backwards with

my progress. This was a few years ago.

And um went back to training each thing

directly once per week and where there's

indirect uh stuff, you know, arms

getting hit once indirectly because of a

chest and back workout on a separate

day. Found I went right back to to

progress again. And so, you know, I'm a

scientist trained to do science. So what

how do you think about something where

in a laboratory you can see something

like protein synthesis peaks 48 hours

later therefore train every 72 hours

versus the real world phenomenon. This

is all very interesting, but if it

doesn't work in practicality, what's it

worth? You know, I hear this a lot now

about this science-based training,

but I actually don't know what science

they're talking about. I mean, some meta

studies, I think, but how were those

studies carried out, with whom, and so

on and so on? I don't know. I know the

case of Viettor study where he put on 65

pounds of muscle verified in a month by

training like

>> less than about an hour a week. I think

>> those were whole body

>> sets to failure.

>> And yes, he was very underweight because

he wasn't on anything and then he got

sick. So

>> he's underweight. So he's building back

muscle, but he wouldn't build it back

without much stimulus.

>> So 65 pound of muscle, although it was

>> uh muscle memory, let's say, had been

that big before, but he put it on

>> in a month. And you compare that with

Arnold that dieted down to 210, I think,

to do this film, Stay Hungry. Then he

went back up to 230 for the Mr. Olympia,

but that took him like 3 months. So you

can compare the two. So when the people

talk about these science-based studies,

and he shouldn't train to failure, it's

better to keep reps in reserve.

I don't know which studies they're

talking about. I'm not saying they're

not out there, but I'm not familiar with

them. I'm not familiar with how they

carried out the studies.

>> But if it doesn't work in practicality,

does it does it really matter? Mhm.

>> Well, often I I've spent some time with

these and you might not be surprised to

learn that a lot of times it's, you

know, we got some college students,

they're doing leg extensions, you know,

we're looking at, you know, biopsies of

the quadriceps, this kind of thing.

Rarely is it the kind of compound

movements, multi- joint movements. Um,

sometimes, but but not always. Well, I

look, my experience with the HIT,

highintensity, lowish volume training

has been

I'll say it's not just about gaining

muscle. I mean, I'm now 50. I know

you're almost 64. Yep.

>> Looking looking amazing. Um we'll tell

us more about longevity stuff in a in a

bit. But

>> I have to say part of it is also that if

one trains the way that you're

describing each muscle once per week,

focusing on intensity, not volume, and

so forth, six weeks or so, then backing

off for two weeks.

>> You also find that in your peer in your

peer group, you're not the one always

complaining about pain. And you have

energy for other things, which we'll get

back to. I mean, unless you're a

competitive bodybuilder, I most people,

including myself, need energy to tend to

life and want to be able to enjoy not

be. It's not the soreness, it's the

constant aches and pains that come from

overtraining. I think that most people

uh don't have to live with, but think

they do.

>> It depends on your goals. Yeah.

>> But I really believe the average person

Yeah. that wants to get health benefits

from bodybuilding, weight training,

resistance, whatever you want to call

it, right?

they let's you have a guy that's 40 or

50 or 60 guy or a lady whatever the idea

is if you could because you've lost

muscle mass slowly since maybe 1% a year

since you're 40 right and this is

affecting your health your metabolism

your ability to process sugar many many

things yeah uh bone strength

and the number one thing that I hear

from people is I don't really have time

for that I have a business I have a

family I said, "That if you could give

me 45 minutes twice a week,

that's all you need to do." Okay, you

need to eat properly and everything like

that, but that's all you need to do for

the average person. If you took eight to

10 exercises that covered your whole

body and you did it twice a week, that

would be enough for the average person.

One for chest, one or two for back, one

or two for legs. Hey, if you want to do

some bicep curls and some triceps, you

can do it. But you're doing pressing

anyway. So, for the average person, that

would actually be enough. And it's not

theory because I've done it with people.

Like I'm saying, this gentleman that

came along, we put 45 minutes in uh

nearly an hour, three times a week cuz I

had him doing cardio as well.

>> Mhm.

>> Well, guess how long the cardio was?

>> Six minutes. Six minutes.

>> You mean pedal hard?

>> We're doing We're doing um sprints.

>> Mhm. like on an air bike. It's my

favorite because it engages every

muscle. Push, pull, legs.

>> If you do a 20 second all out and you

can see how you got on the side of the

thing, you can see how much watts you're

generating. So now you have a target to

hit or exceed every time.

>> So do a minute, minute and a half

warm-up, whatever. Feel warm. All out.

Balls out like the devil's chasing you

for 20 seconds. First one's tough, but

it's okay. Go down slowly for a minute.

do the second one all out. The second

one's really tough.

The third one is I've never met anybody

that wants to do one after the third one

because literally you can't breathe. Um,

and the benefits from that again, I

think there's a book called the one

minute cardio. It's a bit tricky because

it's not really one minute. It's one

minute of sprints,

>> but it's 6 minutes in total. and they

compared that to 45 minutes of steady

cardio on a treadmill or whatever it is.

>> And the results are more or less the

same.

>> So, what do you want to do? Do you want

to spend six minutes? Do you want to

spend 45 minutes? I rather do the six

minutes. Um, I do a bit of long cardio

as well myself cuz I like biking in the

mountains and stuff, but if you did that

twice a week along with some weight

training, that would be amazing. You

change your life literally with that and

a good diet. So the whole time thing

excuses, it's not relevant. I'm not

listening. You don't need a lot of time.

>> Well, what I love about you is that

you've done things at the ultra elite

level within bodybuilding. But the

advice that you're giving right now is

very practical for the everyday person.

And I'm not a psychologist, but I'm

going to venture a hypothesis here,

which is that some of that has to do

with the fact that you grew up

bluecollar background from Birmingham,

working full-time while building out

your bodybuilding career. You didn't

come to it with a briefcase full of cash

and and have the opportunity to just

say, "Oh, how much training can you do?"

Uh, well, let's figure it out. Like, you

had to be very practical. And my guess

is that you had to be very practical

about recovery and nutrition as well.

You probably I'm guessing there was a

point in your life where you couldn't

afford, you know, uh, grass-fed meat

shipped in from, uh, south of France.

And this guy, I'm not saying you do

that.

>> Let me tell you a story, man. When I was

uh, British champion, that was a big

thing back then. British champion,

right?

3,000 people in the audience packed out.

We had buses coming from our gym. All

this stuff, you know, air horns. British

bodybuilding crowds are not like they're

pretty rowdy. They're not.

>> I think the Brits around any sport get

pretty rowdy.

>> They're pretty rowdy. If you see boxing

in Vegas and there's a British fighter,

they take over the whole place, you

know.

>> Uh so anyway, this great accolade. I'm

British champion now. And I went home. I

got no car.

I'm I'm living in a council estate. It's

like projects, you know, council estate.

I got no carpet in my bedroom. I don't

even have a proper bed. I just got a

mattress. Yeah. I got a TV that barely

works.

And I got a trophy.

I'm like, "Wow, look, I'm I'm British

champion, but nobody gives a [ __ ]

really." Like, you know, I do and the

people that's in the bodybuilding

community, but this hasn't translated

into anything yet. It took me about five

years of really like you know 100%

dedication for me to be turn pro and the

ironic thing is I guess like when you're

starting and you got nothing nobody's

very interested and nobody wants to help

you when you start when you become

successes then successful people want to

help you because they want to help

themselves which is it's fair enough

it's a transaction but until then no so

Uh I got my first car when I was 25. All

my friends were driving 18, 19. But the

funny thing is I didn't feel like I was

missing out on anything. I knew I was on

this mission and this in itself was so

powerful like nobody else had that had

this mission that I was doing was just

to change my life basically and

bodybuilding was the the vehicle. And uh

I think uh something that really helped

me is I'm an avid reader. I have been

since I was about 10 years old. And I

can take in a lot of information on a

subject if I'm very interested. I'll

almost be get obsessed with it for a

while and then I might just I forget

about that. I go interested in something

else. Um so all the guys that I was

training with, they were like just

watching videos and listen to other guys

in the gym. I was reading Mike Menso. I

was reading Arthur Jones. I was trying

to figure it out for myself. Um,

which means you need a very uh

independent kind of personality.

So, yeah, let me try do a bit more.

Doesn't work. Finished,

>> you know. And the fact that I've got all

this every single workout from 1983 to

1997 written down all the diets later on

when I'm using anabolics, what I'm using

and how long and all this stuff so I

could uh analyze it, you know, see

what's working and what's not working. A

lot of guys were like shooting in the

dark uh hoping they're going to hit

something, but they don't. And I, you

know, I didn't have time to waste. This

was a mission. Uh, I didn't have skills.

I didn't have a family, you know, all

this stuff. So, bodybuilding was my road

to change my life. Where it was going at

first, I didn't know, but I knew it was

going somewhere. I knew I could be very

good at it. Did you have the sense even

before all this that uh perhaps you were

uh different or or that you were

destined to pursue something

>> 100%

>> from the what's your earliest

recollection of knowing that you were

going to aspire to some very high peak?

>> Well, the first thing I was into was uh

Bruce Lee, right? So, you know, Bruce

Lee and then even I was impressed with

his physique then, but now I look

compared to a bodybuer

on the wall, you know, with the cuts

down there and everything. So, I was

doing push-ups.

Uh, just at my last year at school, I

started getting bodybuilding magazines

and doing a bit of weight training. Um,

so there was that. Then I left home at

16 and I just didn't have the lifestyle

to pursue it. And for some reason, I'm

not doing this. I said, "I'm not doing

this until I can do it properly."

And uh

I always knew I was different, I guess,

you know, but you didn't I didn't know

why and I didn't know where it was

going, but I knew it was going

somewhere. And it's a strange feeling

through my whole process.

I feel like I've done it before almost,

you know, like it was destined. It

wasn't a surprise.

uh in the earlier years it's like

I just knew I got to just put everything

into this. I got to put everything into

and I can't let anything distract me

100% into this. Um so yeah I was I knew

I was destined for something and when I

started doing bodybuilding I was ah so

this is it. Yeah. I don't know if you

heard the story but I got a little bit

of trouble just rowdy guys really. We

got picked up on a street at the wrong

time because there were some street

riots in Birmingham which we weren't

involved with but wrong place wrong

time. Got sent to a detention center and

in there they had weights and there was

300 guys and like I was nearly the

strongest guy in there. There was only

guy who was stronger than me was like 50

60 lbs heavier and I was really lean. I

had abs and everything. Everyone was

like wow the physique. Even the prison

officers in there were like you should

do something with this. said, "Don't

worry, I'm going to." So, that was

another one like, "Hey,

>> you've got something here."

You know, there was a crossroads here

and I was like, I never want to be in a

place like this again and lose my

freedom, but you literally become a

number and you're told when to get up

and when to do this. And

>> those places suck.

>> And I I saw people in there that would I

knew they were destined to like this is

their life. Even they didn't care. Yeah,

I know. But I don't give a [ __ ] I might

be in jail, but this is just the life

I've chosen. Good luck with that, man.

It's not for me, you know. So, that

again was like, hey, you need to do

something with this. And uh when I left

there, I didn't start training. I was

like, I got to get a job. I got to get

an apartment. I got to get stability. Uh

and when I did, I was like, right, I

start my bodybuilding journey. Write it

down today. The date. I still got it,

man.

>> What's in those notebooks? Um everything

from what you did for a warmup, how you

felt going into

>> all the sets and reps, warmup, how I was

feeling that day. Some days I was

feeling overtrained and tired. Even

though I was training three days a week,

sometimes I had to back off the

intensity because of work and stuff like

that. U but how I was feeling. And you

know, it's interesting if I look at my

books over the years. The first ones are

quite childish. Got these little go for

it, you know, mass and power.

>> Kind of cool, too. I'm glad actually you

mentioned that. I've I've kept training

logs inspired by you and by Mike uh um

for many years. and

getting to read that kind of stuff, the

kind of silly stuff. Yeah.

>> I mean, it captures the spirit of it at

the time.

>> Not only that, I wouldn't forget half of

the stuff that I did if I hadn't

documented it. Even now, I'm like, my

guys on social media was like, when were

you doing this exercise and when did you

start when did you change to this one?

I'm like, I don't know, man. I have to

go back and look. And sometimes it's not

as I thought it was when I go back. It

was a little bit different. So, it's

great that I got all that written down

and documented. And uh I used to have

every month a review

>> where I'm at and the goals for the next

month. Try to make them realistic, but

you know the goals in mind for the next

month.

>> Super methodical.

>> Very methodical, analytical, logic.

>> Do you get that from one of your parents

or because to go in the opposite

direction of your parents? What's the

>> uh Well, my mother was uh actually quite

very educated. Mhm.

>> She was private school and everything,

but my dad was very workingass car

mechanic and everything, but he managed

to

>> perfect combo.

>> Yeah. He managed to uh you know, I was

young. I lost my father at 13, right,

from a heart attack. Um, but he was a

working-class guy that managed to buy a

small farm.

He managed to learn to fly an airplane.

I went up with my dad when I was like

four or five years old. He was flying

little four seat Cessnas and everything

like that. So, I mean, he must have been

a smart guy and very driven to be able

to do that as a working-class guy.

Imagine back in the 1970s flying

airplanes and you you work as a

maintenance engineer at the rover plant

or something.

>> Yeah. I think for Americans, they don't

realize how stratified the class system

in England was in that time. Yeah.

>> Is very different. Very

>> absolutely a working-class guy flying an

airplane.

>> There was nobody else doing that. Um, so

he must have been a guy above average

intelligence. So my mom was as well. So

I probably got the logical stuff from my

dad. I would say, you know, my mom's

more female, more emotional. My dad was

probably very uh you know, logical in

his ways. And an engineer, you know,

engineering is about numbers and

everything. So uh

>> well, a lot of people ask me what

happened if you didn't lose your father

when you were 13.

You Dorian Yates the bodybuilder

probably wouldn't exist.

Because if life's comfortable, you won't

put yourself through this [ __ ] man. I

mean, it's a lot of work, a lot of

dedication, a lot of sacrifice, and uh

over many, many years. It's not a, you

know, it's not a short-term thing to get

from being starting bodybuilding to be

to be a pro bodybuilder took me seven

years. And that was quick. That was

relatively quick. So, seven years of

absolute

this is my main focus of life. This is

what I'm doing for seven years to get to

be a pro and then I was seven years as a

pro as well.

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two questions, one practical, one uh

more related to your personal story. Uh

the practical one is one you know

nowadays there's an almost obsession uh

online of uh young guys teens 20s 30s

who immediately think they should be on

testosterone enhancement TRT that you

know going beyond TRT getting on gear

how long gear for the folks that don't

know is uh is a verbiage for for

steroids um TRT testosterone replacement

therapy you know lower dosages designed

to bring things into upper normal range

um in some cases a little higher. What

uh from the time you picked up a weight

maybe in this youth detention center

until the first time you went on gear,

how long was that and how much did you

achieve doing the sorts of training you

were talking about before? I want to

separate this out from the competit from

the competitive phase. Um in part

because frankly I think and I've been

very open. I went on I'm on lowdose TRT.

I started when I was 45 about 125

milligrams a week. Okay. Um the same as

you. Uh so um but I I always tell people

they they really really really should

wait if do it at all. How long did you

have without without anything where it's

you know okay food training sleep maybe

some supplements like some creatine some

some protein powder

>> right so I started in 83

earlier in the year

uh I was

180 185 but very lean you can see some

pictures of me

>> when you have those thick joints I mean

you're you have an athletic

>> I got very low body fat as well

naturally uh my son and my daughter they

both like had abs and like when 11 years

old, very very lean, pale skin, low body

fat, thin skin, uh type of thing. So you

wouldn't say, "Wow, look at that guy.

He's big." But you would say, "Wow, he's

he's really cut this guy." That's how I

started, 180. So, uh,

after 6 months, I think I was 195

and the gym owner put on a contest in

Birmingham, local gym thing, and he was

like, "Come on, go in a contest."

I don't know. Okay. So, I went in, no

diet, no steroids, nothing. It was the

first time as contest. I still got the

pictures, but the two guys that I was

competing, they came second and third. I

won. But both these guys were already on

stuff. So, I was able to beat them not

using anything, right? Because

genetically I'm better, I guess. I'm not

saying in six months uh I overtook them.

I probably started ahead of them. So

that was with nothing. I got up to 210.

>> So I just looking back uh because we did

some social media posts with my early

training. Yeah. So I'm benching three

plates aside for like three or four reps

and I want to go now into the IFBB and

compete. Yeah. Which I know everybody's

using, right? So I was 210

uh when I decided I'm going to do this

competition

and I did some deb 20 milligrams a day

for about 6 weeks and I switched to

Anavar for the contest.

So I went from 180 to 210. So that's 30

lbs I put on in a year and a half

training or something. Then I decided to

do the composition. So

in 6 weeks I think on 20 milligrams of

DB bar I went to like 230 you know it's

a big boost in 6 weeks but I already put

on 30 lbs like without anything. Um and

for me it was always like I'm going to

do competitive bodybuilding and I intend

to make a career out of it. So I just

want to be on the same playing field as

everybody else.

So

I won the novice competition in the IFBB

and like just everyone was like freaking

out. The guy who was the head of the

federation who's also a judge at the Mr.

Olympia and some other guys came

backstage and said who the where the

hell have you come from and why are you

in the novice competition? I said well

I'm from Birmingham and this is my first

competition in the federation. So I

start at the bottom and wait.

You're probably better than our best

heavyweight. I'm like, "No, come on."

And they were laughing like this kid.

Like,

we want you to join the British team in

two weeks time at the World Games, which

is world championship. So, I went from a

novice two weeks later to compete in the

World Games against Buried Demay, who

became a top Olympian, Matt Mendesol,

who was the best amateur in USA at the

time. And I got seventh place there. And

I remember like I basically

spent out all my funds

to get ready for this concert. I had

nothing left. I had to buy a tracksuit,

tanning lotion. Like I was earning very

little money. So this took all my money

and I'm broke and I had to ask my

brother-in-law, "Can you lend me like 20

pounds cuz I need to do this and get a

taxi to the the

uh the team selection,

>> right?" So I went to the team selection.

I got picked. But I was like amongst all

these guys and I'm thinking like I just

borrowed some money to get here, you

know, but they picked me for the World

Games team. So I went quite uniquely I

think from a novice competition to a

world championship in two weeks.

>> So that's, you know, kind of the level I

was at when I first started competing. I

don't want to put words into your mouth,

but um do you think it's fair to say

that for people who are not going to

pursue competitive bodybuilding that

it's probably best to explore how far

they can go with their training and good

nutrition and perhaps even without

hormone replacement until they're really

need it or later. I mean, to me it seems

like given the health risks, unless

there's it's sort of like boxing like

like boxing's fun. I've done some

boxing, done some sparring, but at some

point you realize, wait, if I'm not

going to make money doing this, if this

isn't my career, getting hit in the head

is just not worth it, especially for my

job.

>> I'm not asking you to be a public health

adviser, but you've been in this sport.

A lot of young guys are uh and gals are

interested in looking better, feeling

better, and going immediately to what

peptides can I take? What, you know,

should I be on HRT? Should I take

Anavar? And

>> I've got my opinions, but you're the

expert here. Well, it's my opinion and

the way I looked at it was like I'm

going to do this as a sport, right? So,

I justified it because everyone else is

doing it and I did it as a professional

and uh 1990.

So, I was two times British champion,

overall British champion in 1988. I got

my pro card and my first pro contest was

Night of Champions, which was probably

second or third, you know, uh below the

Mr. Olympia cuz those of you who don't

know, you can't just go into Mr.

Olympia, right? You have to win a pro

show or place in the top three as it

used to be then. I'm not sure. Now, they

seem to give out so many pro cards. It's

kind of lost its value. But then it was

tough to get a pro card. So, I said,

"Look, I've been doing all this. Yeah,

I'm taking steroids, which may have some

negative effects on my health later on.

May do.

So, I'm going to go to Knight of

Champions. If I don't get in the top

five, I'm not good enough.

So, at that point, if that's the case,

no longer justified to take the

steroids, right? Or compete because I've

gone as far as my genetics will allow

me. As I observed the history of

bodybuilding, the guys that were great

champions, they were great like out the

gate. They didn't get, I don't know,

12th place in Mr. Olympia and then next

year win it. Like, you got it, you don't

have it, right? That's what I thought.

I'm going to be brutally honest with

myself. I have a gym. I'm making okay

money now. If I don't compete, I could

open more gyms, put more time into that.

Uh I have a young son. You know, there's

kind of making a sacrifice of time and

energy and everything because I'm

putting everything into this. So, if I

don't get in the top five in the night

of champions, competitive career is

over. Steroids are over.

Do something else within the sport. Open

more gyms or something like that. Uh

anyway,

the story is I got second. So, uh I

continued to do what I got to do as a

professional and I feel it was justified

because I was earning a lot of money,

more money than anyone else I knew ever

earned. Um but what's my advice

if you were a 20-year-old guy and you

you were speaking to me and I'm giving

you advice?

Get as far as you can naturally. Yeah.

and then look at it. But

whatever gains you make by taking

anabolics is a temporary situation. You

will lose it when you get off. All

right? So, it's a merrygoround. Once you

get on the merry-go round, you don't

really want to get off because when you

do get off, you start to lose all those

gains. You start to feel mentally

depressed because now your hormones are

on the floor. So, what you going to do?

Jump right back on again. And it becomes

this merrygoround.

As far as I'm concerned, everybody

should make their own choices in life

and be able to do what they want to do.

But keep that in mind. Is it worth it?

Because negative possible negative

effects

uh physically and also is not talked

about a lot mentally.

I believe there's a lot of people in the

sport with mental health problems,

especially women now, because they're in

the high doses now, where before they

really weren't.

Um, and we're in this age of instant

gratification. Everybody wants

everything now, right? And I see it a

bit like this, maybe from the guy's

point of view. Well, listen, women are

having breast implants, right?

They're having lip fillers and Botox and

all this [ __ ] So, why can't we take

some anabolics just to look good and

have abs on the beach? Why not? Uh

because of that. And ask yourself if

it's worth it because this is a reality.

You can't keep those gains. So, you're

probably going to be forced to

continually do this over a long period

of time and that might be bad for your

health. Um

I seem to be in very good health. Uh,

but I've changed my lifestyle and done a

lot of different things to kind of

recover from the stress that I put on my

body in a professional career. And I'm

here today and I'm healthy and I'm

successful and my business is good and

I'm happy. Uh, but it could have been

different. You know, it was different

for a lot of guys that I used to compete

against.

>> Yeah. A lot of them are dead.

>> Yeah. So, is it worth the risk? I mean,

that's their question to answer, but I

would say it's not. But, hey, that's

just my opinion. Well, I'm struck again

by how rational you were. If I place in

the top five, etc., I'll move forward.

If not, very grounded.

>> Yeah, they So, that was the first

question. Um, and we will return to some

training things. But the second question

relates to this, uh, thing that you

mentioned about your dad had he not

passed away young. Um, a friend of mine,

uh, we were talking recently about, uh,

having daughters versus sons. Uh, I

won't provide the context for this, but

and he said to me, uh, he's got three

daughters and he's very happy with his

three daughters. And he said and he said

uh you know the one thing about uh sons

is they feel I think he was talking

about himself they feel like they have

to fill their father's shoes.

>> Yeah.

>> There's going to be a phase where

they're competing with their dad no

matter what.

>> Yeah.

>> And my reflexive response was and then I

realized listen I went through all that

stuff. All that stuff. And in many ways

my dad and I are on good terms now but

we had some choppy years in there but uh

for sure but now we're good. But the

friction,

I mean, that grew me a lot, too.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, it it uh forced me to work

harder. I mean, there were probably some

long nights that, you know, I just I

wasn't consciously tying it to like, oh,

I'm trying to, you know, outdo him, but

I pushed myself to become somebody that

was at least as, you know, successful in

certain ways and ideally more. And so,

do you think this is a this is a

>> I think every situation can go two ways,

right?

>> I mean, you have a son now. So, how do

you think about this with him?

>> I think he found it tough. He confined

uh with my wife a little bit that he

found it tough like uh but I'm like

don't try to compete with me in what I

do because but take the principles of

discipline and hard work and you can

apply that really to anything. Uh but

yeah, I think you know uh my son did

some bodybuilding. you know, was he was

uh playing with the idea of competing,

which he probably could have done uh

quite well.

But I said, "Look, you're a sensitive

guy." Yeah. Much more sensitive than me.

I got thick skin. But let me tell you

what will happen if you compete. You

win. Ah, of course he won his Dorian

son. You lose. How can he lose his

Dorian son? I said, "Either way, that's

be prepared for that's going to be the

reaction." So, you know, if you want to

do it, I'll support you. But he decided

not to get into the competitive side of

things.

>> Mhm.

>> Um, well, he trains people and stuff.

So, you know, there's still both of my

kids are in the fitness world, let's

say.

>> Um, but competitive world is a is a

different thing. And there's very few

people that can get to the top and make

it work for them. you know,

>> more people now because before you had

to compete and you had to win and you

had to be in the magazines. Now you a

lot of people can make money online

coaching or whatever it is. Uh so

there's more avenues now that you can go

into to make money in the what's called

now the fitness industry is so much

bigger than when I was competing. But I

would say purist bodybuilding is less

people doing it, more people going to

the gym and doing fitness in general.

Uh, but I think bodybuilding per se was

more popular in the 80s and '90s cuz it

was all new and there was less there was

no CrossFit, there was no MMA, there's,

you know, things have changed since

then. There was no fitness Mr. Olympia,

there's no I don't know, they got so

many classes now. So, there's many more

things for people to do than, you know,

maybe they figure it's not worth it to

be a competitive bodybuilder if you can

learn uh earn an income online and not,

you know, put yourself online in

competition. So, things have changed a

lot since then.

>> Yeah. And the the bodies that are in

movies have changed tremendously. I

mean, the average size of a male or

female, the the shape is is so much more

bodybuilderesque now.

Everyone's using juice, right? You know,

it's uh it's mainstream now. When I

started bodybuilding in 1980s,

>> I don't think the general public really

knew about steroids or, you know, they

get a little inkling when Ben Johnson's

got a positive. Now, everybody's it's

mainstream, right? Everybody knows about

steroids. And I think it's seen as by

males as a cosmetic enhancement just

like females putting blush pants in or

Botox and or whatever they put in their

lips and everything uh to make that

change. So it's mainstream. You got

rappers, you got movie stars like they

want to get in shape for a movie. Come

on, man. It's not happening in two

months that transformation without some

chemical help which you know they're

earning million in the millions in the

movie. So maybe it's worth it for them.

Of course.

>> Mhm. You mentioned you have a thick

skin. Um one of the things that uh got

me to learn about you early on because

frankly I I was involved in other

things. Uh a little bit of martial arts,

some soccer, some things. And and

bodybuilding to me wasn't something I

really wanted to pursue as a sport, but

I wanted to put on muscle. I was tall

skinny kid. Um, that's what led me to

Mensor and how I learned about your

training, discovered what you were

doing, and then, um, really learned to

extract the what I think is the the best

of of bodybuilding for somebody who

doesn't want to do it. Like, how are

they training, how are they eating, what

are they doing that's separate from the

drugs that I can benefit from this kind

of thing.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> And to be fair, TRT is can be very

useful to treat depression and other

things for men and in some cases even

women. We'll get back to that, but I I

want to just kind of frame this in a

certain way. However, the um you know,

one of the things that I think drew me

to what you were doing at the time is

that you had this kind of like mellow

um sort of I would say kind of like

quiet thick skin stance. We also have

kind of commonalities through our music

tastes. So, I saw that and I recognize

certain things in the tattoos, the punk

rock thing. I Yeah. Oi music and that

kind of thing. And so, you go, "Oh,

here's somebody who's kind of different

than the rest of this this community."

But when people see the videos of you

training, we'll put some links to those.

It's so striking because you're like

this, but then in the moment of a set,

it's like I mean, intensity

is doesn't quite explain it. It's like,

and I'm curious because people can see

those videos.

What was going on in your head? Were you

think going into the set, through the

set, were you thinking about I'm just

guessing your your dad uh how you were

an underdog. Were you just thinking

about the muscle? What were you using

besides listening to loud music and um

>> intensity doesn't come from nowhere. It

comes from someplace. What's your

internal narrative at those times?

>> Well, I always prepared myself before I

went to the gym. Just walk through the

doors casually.

I'd review my training before I went

there. This is what I did last week.

This is what I want to do today. And I

would sit and do a visualization.

So I'd have specific clothes for the day

and like OCD maybe. And I used to have

this thing which seems strange to me

now. Yeah. I used to iron my clothes

before I went to the gym, right? They

had to be ironed. They had to be thing.

And I just read a study how ironing

clothes really lowers your cortisol by

about 40%. I didn't know that. I was

just doing it. I trained with my friend

in New York. He's like, "What the [ __ ]

you doing, man? Just put your t-shirt."

No, no, no. I got to iron it. There was

a whole

>> game preparation going on to get me in

uh

maybe OCD, maybe too much, but it worked

for me. Yeah. So, I review, go to the

gym, and have my targets. And uh I use a

special type of motivation. It's called

[ __ ] you motivation. Uh [ __ ] you to all

the teachers at school that said you

couldn't get anywhere. [ __ ] you. [ __ ]

anyone. So I'm going to show you. [ __ ]

you. So [ __ ] your motivation. It's a

great one. Yeah. Whatever you got inside

you, anger,

negative emotions,

use it all. Use it all like fire. And

then when I go home, I'm like, I'm

chilled.

I've slayed dragons in the gym. I've

hacked people up with my sword. I've And

it's like a form of

mastery over oneself, mastery over the

whole thing with the dieting as well for

competitions.

Maybe I went a little bit overboard with

it and came down a little bit too much

because then it was like mastery over my

instincts of want to eat and do I do

this? No.

I'm deciding here. I'm in control. And

maybe this worked against me a bit as

well because I would be like going to

the world. I don't care if you if I feel

a little I'm going through it, you know.

So, um

yeah, I used all these anger, negative

emotions, whatever it is. I I'll show

you. I'm going to make it. I'm going to

do this. So, whatever works for you, but

for me, that worked. You know the

anything negative turn it into something

positive.

>> You know it's um transforming the

negative energy which could be

destructive to myself or maybe other

people around me taking it

uh alchemy you know changing it into

something else. So I used all that

negative feeling negative emotions and I

stayed in Birmingham as well while I was

Mr. Olympia for 6 years. uh more

opportunities here and everything, but

more distractions as well. So, I wanted

to stay in the same gym, try to keep

that same attitude even though I got

more money in the bank and I'm driving a

Mercedes instead of jumping on the bus,

right? But I wanted to keep that. That's

why I didn't move over here. A lot of

people asked me, well, I didn't go to

the States cuz the industry is there.

Um, but by the time I got to be Mr.

Olympia, I could kind of dictate things.

So, I did what I wanted to do, which was

keep my head down and keep that hunger

going.

>> I love the transmutation of anger and

the everyone's got their stories of the

man and I can remember in the third

grade someone said something about the

jacket that my mom gave me that day to

wear and like these little things. I

mean, they don't bother me anymore, but

there were times when, you know, we can

we can layer in

>> it's fuel, man. Use it for fuel.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Take that anger, the negative

thing, whatever, change it into

something positive. Uh, and we were

discussing earlier like do we know any

like elite level athletes that came from

a very comfortable wealthy family? I

don't know any. I'm not saying there

isn't, but I don't know any. You need

that. You need that motivation. You

know, you want to make something. You

want to

>> make something of your life. You want to

prove to yourself and everybody else uh

you know that that you've got something.

And uh I just when I was young I looked

at life around me. I thought I don't

what is this?

I'm going to get a mate, have some

children, go to work, come back. Uh for

a lot of people, this is great. Maybe

the love of the family and everything

like that, but I didn't have that. Even

when I had a family, it wasn't a family.

I never, you know, my mom and dad were

kind of together because it was the 60s,

but I got the idea that, you know, that

was because of me, maybe. Uh so we never

sat down and had a meal as a family.

What I never so we were mom and dad were

married but they were leading kind of

separate lives and I was in the middle

somewhere I guess. Um

yeah so if I didn't have that motivation

you know maybe my dad would have taught

me to be a mainten you know car engineer

or something. I don't know. Uh it would

be a whole different story. I'm sure

>> I have this theory that um barring

accident or injury that we kind of have

a unconscious sense of how long we're

going to live.

>> I started thinking about this when I

read the biography of Steve Jobs who,

you know, he was really on a mission

early on and and kind of an odd guy. He

he was in the area I grew up in and you

know his whole thing with LSD but also

scream therapy but also he thought that

objects had personality and things like

that. He was he's quite different and

>> he was doing something different.

>> He was doing something different. He saw

the world very differently and he

changed the world. Like him or hate him,

he he absolutely changed the world. If

you learn about him, you realize that he

he had some sense that he might not live

a very long time.

>> Yeah.

>> And he died quite young. Pancreatic

cancer.

>> Is it a sense or is a premonition? Is it

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and you can edit these

thoughts, I think, cuz I always had this

bit of a fatalistic thing maybe because

my dad died so young. So my dad died at

42. My mom quickly met another guy that

she wanted to marry and he also died at

44.

So I saw two guys, okay? They both smoke

40 cigarettes a day, which was usual at

that time and don't exercise and drink

alcoh get enough sleep and no sunlight,

all these things. Um,

but you know, I've I've changed this

over the years because now now I'm 63

going on 64 and uh appear to be very

healthy. I feel great and I'm looking

forward to the future. And I don't know,

none of us know, right? I'm just trying

to live the best life that I can live

day by day and uh

you know be the best version of myself

and have a good quality of life and uh

appreciate every day at a time. I mean

this is what we learn from dogs. Yeah.

They don't live in in the future. They

don't live in the past. They're just

there all the time. They're there as a

reminder. We're both dog lovers. So we

were talking about that earlier on. So,

uh, we don't know how long we're going

to live. Just make the most of it every

day. And, uh, I, you know, I said I read

a lot. So, I was this book, um, by a

lady that works in end care, you know,

so she interviewed all these people

that, you know, they know they're dying,

right? They're on the way out and what

they regret and all this stuff.

Uh, mostly it was not doing the things

they love. Mhm.

>> Not telling the people that they love

that they love them enough. Not one

[ __ ] person said, "I wish I worked

harder." or anything like that, you

know? So, I think we have to just make

the most of the moment. Make the most of

each day and uh appreciate it because

it's, you know, it's going to end,

right? We're going to move on.

>> Mhm.

>> I don't believe we stop. We just move

on.

>> Yeah. I I think we continue on in some

in some form.

>> We're already there. We're already

everywhere at the same time. And that's

what I think. We're just aware of this.

We're on this channel right now. We're

on this radio radio wave.

>> I certainly subscribe to that. And I

want to get into kind of your um

exploration of of psychedelics and uh

consciousness um and then moving on from

it, which not everyone is aware of. Um

but before we do that um despite the

living for the day by the day um you had

this sense that like you're going to put

everything you have into something and

you went for in this I'm realizing now

very logical like if this then that if

that then not this it wasn't do more or

die.

>> It was maybe do or die during the

training but it was um when the feedback

signal was there's a real opportunity

here you put everything inact but you

weren't foolish with your life resource.

No, I did it step by step, you know, and

uh anabolics that I took when I was

amateur was, you know, is fairly low.

So, I don't think there was that much

risk there. When I was becoming Mr.

Olympia, it went up another level. And

uh growth hormone was not available

early 80s. So, that came in late 80s

into the '9s and so on. But I don't

think there's much danger in that. as

danger is in the body weight. Um, high

blood pressure, inflammation,

>> diuretics,

>> diuretics. I mean, that's a instant

death sentence if you overdo that and it

has happened. Uh,

>> the guy I mean it hit me the guy that I

got second to at my first night

champions, Muhammad Benaziza. I don't

know if you remember him. He was a short

guy but amazing a lot of muscle

>> and he passed away on a tour because he

was doing extreme things with water and

uh diuretics and they actually did uh

introduce testing for diuretics 1996 in

the Mr. Olympia because people were

concerned about this. There was a few

guys that died just trying to get

dehydrated and get in condition.

Um, but I think somebody failed the test

and challenged it legally and it didn't

stand up. So then they just dropped it.

They did steroid testing interestingly

in 1990.

>> How'd that go?

>> Sorry. Take a look online.

>> I mean, it's got, you know, it's funny

there. It used to be a big deal to try

and figure out is somebody taking stuff

or not. I mean, there's just these

telltale signs, right? A certain

leanness, a certain uh, you know, uh,

protrusion of uh, some vasculature in

the neck. I mean, you can tell when

people are on and when they're not,

right? And um although there are a

couple genetic freaks out there like

yourself when you were younger, my

friend Nimma, who uh works with Mark

Bell, who you know, he's got really long

muscle bellies. He's naturally lean and

and you just he's a real athlete and and

according to him, I think as of last

time we spoke, you know, he hasn't

touched anything and people would, you

know, die to have his kind of

musculature and but he trains hard. He

does everything. But it's kind of scary

to think what happens when guys like

that would go on. I think

>> you could look online 1990 Mr. Olympia.