Andreas, thank you so much for doing

this.

>> Thank you, Ethan. Great to be here.

>> Does trend following still work?

>> Yeah, I think I've been asked for uh for

that. I've been asked about that for the

past, I don't know, 15 plus years, 20

maybe. Uh trend following tends to die

quite often. It it's a well-known thing,

right? trend following has gone up and

down in profitability over the years and

in terms of you know risk risk adjusted

returns for it. Profitability has well

it's gone down since the 80s 90s

obviously but every time trend following

has a draw down everybody calls it death

of trend following and then you know few

years later we have moved back up again

and nobody mentions that again right now

obviously trend following hasn't done

very well in the last uh year or two or

so but it's This is as usual ups and

down. I don't I don't see a big problem

right now. There's a big draw down. Um

depending on point of view, maybe a good

idea to buy trend following strategies

at the moment. I'm not selling any by

the way. So I'm not solicitating. I

don't sell any trend following to the

public anymore. But um

but uh it might be interesting entry

point for trend following models at this

point.

>> Yeah. I Yeah, it's funny. I was speaking

to a

to a fund manager based in London. Um a

former episode. It was another episode

on the podcast and he was talking about

how

he combines a discretionary overlay on

top of trend because he says that he

finds it pretty easy to tell which

markets are going to trend, which

aren't. And you know, by applying that

overlay, he's a able to to use these

strategies. And what what he said is,

you know, he's he's performed a lot

better by by adding that overlay. And I

guess I'd like to ask you about that. So

within trend following, what are the

contexts today in which you think they

perform well those strategies?

>> I mean, first just to comment on that, I

I don't know, maybe this is somewhat I

know. I thought you were talking about

Rob Carver first, but when once you said

um discretionary, I know you're not

talking about him anyway. Uh, personally

I don't do that. If it works for this

guy, whoever that is, then fine. I mean,

I'm not I I have no say religious views

about trading. Whatever whatever works.

There are clearly stupid methods out

there. But there's a lot of non- stupid

methods that work. If you're good at

them, and if this guy's good at that, it

works for him. Great. No problem with

that type of approach. I don't do it

myself. So, when does trend following

work? Well, we need lasting trends.

Right now there's a lot of uncertainty

on a lot of issues. What trend followers

hate, at least me, is a risk on risk off

type of mentality.

>> When everything moves the same way,

that's that's always a bit of a problem.

You know, when you're in the middle of a

great market and everything is is

correlated on the upside, suddenly it

turns it correlated on correlated on the

downside. That that's just no fun. You

need a diversification effect from it.

Um obviously from a bigger perspective I

mean if you look back a few decades if

you have very high interest rates that

are slowly moving down. I mean that was

a large part of the big returns back in

the uh the 80s and 90s right first you

have very high interest rates you get a

lot of free return on the excess capital

trend followers uh work work with

futures derivatives and we have a lot of

cash over you got to place a cash

somewhere and you get get very high free

interest from the government it's good I

mean you get you get performance fee on

that right at the same time we had

slowly decreasing rates which means you

will long bonds along anything interest

rate related.

>> That was pretty interesting trade.

That that was fun at the time, but um

now you got to look for different

things. I think there's a danger in

sticking to two old ways of looking at

things. I mean, trend following like

everything else, you have to adapt to

what you see out dark. You don't have

the same market climates like we had the

had back in the uh the 90s anymore.

Andrew, I want to hear I guess

a bit about your career because I, you

know, I first heard about you when I was

first getting interested in the space,

read some of your books and um I read

Following the Trend. I remember that was

two years ago. Um, and I guess I want to

hear about

your journey through this industry. You

know, how did you start? What was that

like?

>> Um, let me see.

Why did I get into finance? Well, I

think I got into finance because of the

the trading room in my university.

Now, back then, not every university had

these things. We had we had a trading

room that was uh sponsored by by

Reuters.

Uh we had a small trading group like a

society I suppose American terms and uh

university

and they had this room with very

high-end Reuters machines at the time

like market data systems. Okay. So real

time charting anything really expensive

stuff. That's where you would go if you

had an interest in data.

I don't know how many of you are

familiar with how the markets looked

back in uh those days, but let's just

say they were pretty easy. Pretty easy.

I mean, most of us, we were just buying

stocks. We we heard about companies we

thought were cool and we thought we were

really really clever because we made

money, right? I mean, you know, I I had

a great start of my trading career. I

made money on every trade. I had a

nearly 100% hit rate. Yes. I I thought I

was really good until, you know, it took

me quite a while to realize that I was

buying tech stocks in the biggest tech

bubble in the world. So you know

everybody was making money there. It's

not not skill is right time right place.

If I had if I started university in uh

say 99 2000 my career might have been in

uh something very different. Yeah I

during this time I started a small IT

company. I think I founded that when I

was like 19. Uh sold that when I was

years later 99 somewhere around there.

Uh pure dumb luck as well. Uh I've

gotten rid of an IT company 99. I had

I joined a company called Reuters, the

the ones who sponsored our our trading

room back then.

Initially I was uh I I was uh head of

Reuters consulting Nordic for a while.

There was a consulty arm, financial

consulty arm of of the company.

Did that for like two years before I was

offered a a job in in um in Switzerland.

My then boss comes up to me. He was

tired of me being on the phone for a

long time waiting for to speak to me.

Finally, he um he gets tired of waiting.

So he writes a paper in front of me

saying Geneva 3 months, you leave

tomorrow.

All right, cool.

So I left for Geneva the next day and

realized that Switzerland is a pretty

good place to live. I don't want to

leave this place. Yeah. I spent a few

years down there. I got a job sim

company first at uh how um stupid titles

you have in big companies. I think I was

like global head of equities and

commodity analytics modeling something

like that. Um I was basically the

manager of a group of people building

financial calculation models for a

while.

I'm ranting for a while here. Feel feel

free feel free to interrupt me. I'm um

>> No, I would I want to hear the story

about the hedge fund. That's because

that's whenever we release an episode

with someone who's built a fund and and

really done that, everyone seems to tune

in. everyone's interested. Well, I've

been asked a few times about how how do

I get into hedge funds? It's very common

question and my common answer is I don't

know. I mean, the joke I repeated a few

times is like I I feel like I'm I'm a

lucky monkey. I I I slipped on a banana

peel and landed in the hedge fund

business. That's the best I can explain

it. Dumb luck. Uh the the thing is my

philosophy is you have to put yourself

in a position where this kind of luck

could happen. it's not going to fall

from the sky. You need to be in a

situation where you have a slightly at

least some probability of this type of

luck happening. So, let me uh let me try

to explain. I uh

>> what happened was this. I realized I was

stuck in this management career. I know

that that

sounds bad perhaps, but I I really

didn't like what I was doing. I had on

paper a a decent career, good title, all

of these things, but I didn't want to do

this. So, I made myself more visible.

First, I I found myself in at the time I

was in Geneva. I'm in a foreign country

with a language I don't really fully

command, at least not at the time. They

speak French in Geneva. Not really not

really for me. I understand French, but

I'm not fluent enough to to to fit in to

be one of them.

I knew no nobody. I had no contact

network in in the country. I needed to

be visible a little bit. Uh I took a few

steps to become more visible just to

have more high chance of accidental

accidentally meeting people that might

be able to help. One one way was I

joined the um the organization that was

at the time called the MTA. Now they're

called the uh the CMT Association.

It's a technical analysis organization.

One reason I did that was that at the

time you I still think that's the case.

You needed three people who are current

members to to recommend you for

membership

>> which means you're forced to get to know

local people.

>> So I did that. I contact three random

people out of the um membership list in

in the country.

The first one to respond he said he was

in Geneva. Let's go meet for a quick

drink in the evening. Have a chat. I met

him and after speaking for 10 minutes,

uh, he asked me if I'm interested in

starting a hedge fun for him.

Yes, I agree. I agree. It It sounds like

I just made it up, didn't it? Uh,

so this is um Yeah, I don't mind

speaking openly about that one. I'll

I'll uh I'll spare you who it is, but uh

it turns out this is this individual. Uh

I learned a lot from this experience

mostly not to make not to do business

with this type of people but he um he

worked for a very prestigious Swiss

private bank. He was very senior in this

bank. He wanted to start a hedge fund on

the side

uh which is not illegal but it is

against certainly against his um

employment agreements and all of these

things. That's his business. Um he

wanted me to be Mr. Invisible. It should

I should be the one to start the fund.

He had uh he had about 40 50 million he

needed to have managed and he needed

somebody to do the job. All right. So we

started a fund together. On paper it was

just me. Obviously we started it

together. Uh I was I was managing it and

um he put the money in or he and uh yeah

the people he knew. Uh that was my

ticket in. Now obviously

that type of arrangement is not entirely

healthy. I stayed with that a couple of

years and decided to start my own thing

after that. Uh I got got to know that

type of individual and learned a lot

about who to work with and who not to

work with. Uh that had a fun little

ending in the end with uh uh let me see

I think he tried to sue me for initially

a few million in the beginning through

his panameanian um um tax evasation

company that was he was hiding behind.

It's a you know these things happen in

this business. It was a very colorful

story but nothing nothing happened in

the end you know it was a lot of

>> weird things I say in this industry you

see a lot

>> uh so that was uh that was somebody I

met through this organization so lesson

from this how do you get into hedge

funds

>> well first thing is once once you're in

like most things once you're in you're

in and you can do all kinds of other

things right once I had done that for a

couple of years I had all kinds of

possibilities of of starting my own fund

I had a track record I had pedigree of

the business.

>> How did you get from that?

>> So, what year did you start and what

year did you um jump and build your own

thing?

>> I would say that first thing must have

been like 2005 to my memory.

>> Okay.

>> Around there 20 years ago. Yeah. Must

have been about there.

>> Okay.

>> Plus, minus a year somewhere around

there. And

maybe two three years later, I started I

I went independent, started my own

thing. Well, other people obviously, but

not with not not with this individual.

The real lesson for me is

the first part here that make yourself

visible in some way.

You need to do something that makes you

different or stand out somehow. You need

to do something to make yourself

visible. Take steps to be to be seen.

Otherwise, you're one of everybody else.

What that thing is, well, that's

up to you. you need to find whatever

personal thing. At the time I did a lot

of things. I I started writing a um

analysis newsletter. I started doing all

kinds of things to be more visible. One

thing one thing that got results in the

end was joining this organization.

>> Do something that's different.

>> Yeah. Um, I fully agree and I actually

find that plenty of young people today,

my friends,

ultimately they worship prescriptions

and they

view

a career as

somehow

they expect it to be a straight linear

path where I do this two years. And I

was just, you know, I was just speaking

to one of my good friends

a couple days ago and and and and they

were telling me that they're doing their

investment banking 2 years whatever and

they have to start recruiting for

private equity for after that and they

start recruiting for that now. um you

know like the cycle is call it like Q1

Q2 before you start your analyst program

and you know they're telling me they're

really stressed and I was part of me was

like I mean I referred them like I know

you're extremely smart I know you're

extremely driven just make sure this is

what you want you know make sure because

I think it's I think a lot of people can

get into that position where they

idolize um the idea of the work and they

actually start doing the job and gosh

they realize it sucks.

>> Oh yeah.

>> In their eyes, right?

>> Yeah. It's still job. It's still work at

the end, right?

>> Yeah.

>> That that's that's the funny thing

difference between

people who have spent time in finance

and hobby people trying to get in like

especially when I when I attend this

retail more retail focused trading

conferences. So I I I speak at this

event sometimes and

>> and I hear this this language that I

used to use as well back in the days

before I was in the industry where

people talk about like

>> I I I trade I I I trade for the love of

the game, you know, it's about the it's

about the craft and the the the love of

of of trading and finance and like yeah,

nobody's in finance things that way.

It's a job. Yeah, you know, it can be a

good job. It can be a fun job at times.

can be a rewarding job, but you know,

it's not like

I it's not like people just love trading

so much and love finance so much and

that's why we join the industry. That

that's usually much more of the of the

outside perspective

>> and it's often it often feels like

people are saying these things because

they feel that that's what they should

be saying.

>> Yeah.

>> And maybe it is I mean maybe in a job

interview as a as an entry level.

>> Yeah.

>> Who knows? Depending on the company,

maybe you need to save those things.

Just, you know, don't believe it.

>> Ever since I was three, I wanted to

become a trader.

>> Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. There

was a Yeah. brings back the um uh Good

Fellows. Ever since ever since I was a

child, I wanted to be a gangster. Yes.

That's the opening line of the movie.

Yes. Exactly. Yes.

>> Yeah. Um so, you know, let's let's go

back to the the

starting that hedge fund. You know, you

worked with this guy for three years. He

sues you, you know, legal battles,

whatever.

>> I tried.

>> And then you set up your own shop in

called 2008, 2009. Is that correct?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds about right.

>> 2008 2009. All right. So, what was what

was that like? So, you were running

some, you know, certain systematic

strategies with this guy.

>> Um, you build your own thing.

>> Yep.

>> What was that?

>> Tell me about it. So with with the first

fund and that that was part of the

frustrations why why I left in the end.

Part of it was that I I saw some dodgy

sites I didn't like. Uh the other part

was we divided the fund in a few

different few different buckets. I was

running some of them they were running

some and I was running the systematic

strategies and they were running more

discretionary on the other and it didn't

fit together very well. Now the uh later

on I um I had better control over what I

was doing. So I could I could manage the

whole the whole fund in in a more

pragmatic way and completely systematic

and I was very lucky to be part of 2008.

Lucky well lucky and unlucky at the same

time. So 2008 for for those of you who

are lucky enough not to have been part

of finance year that was a crazy year.

Most people have I say even me I

probably have slight bit of PTSD from

from that year. There was um sleepless

year

but I was running CTA type of strategies

and that year one of the few things that

had extremely good results that year was

CTA type of strategies. M

>> so that that was a good part but let's

say you run a back test for the past you

know 30 years you're going to see that

you had extreme results on 2008 and you

think that was very fun year right now

first of all there's no way you could

actually actually execute the way your

back tests were telling you that year it

was just not possible reality is not a

back test so your results will certainly

not be the way the back test says mostly

because you would have seen like daily

variation of your portfolio of like 30

40 50% moves up and down during the same

day. If you're running 100 million and

you see, you know, 50% moves intraday on

the entire portfolio, no no you can't do

that. There there are times when you

override and you massively decrease

risk. Uh I would say you you have to be

borderline criminally insane to have

continue running a model if you saw that

type of results. That's one thing. And

the other thing is of course what do you

do with the cash?

Uh now that's also something that you

might miss in a back test.

>> As I mentioned before when you run

future strategies you have a lot of cash

on hand.

>> A lot of cash like you know 80 70 80% of

the all your value could be in actual

pure cash.

>> So you need to put that somewhere right?

And obviously you're not holding it in

cash because if your bank blows up you

lose the cash.

At the time there was not much to hide.

Not much place to hide.

We would be spending the whole afternoon

every day figuring out which bank there

was like a month or so at that time the

worst period. In the afternoon you will

spend this hours figuring out which bank

is least likely to blow up in the next

24 hours.

Then we move cash to that bank.

That's how bad it was. So I mean you

we're analyzing like uh Deutsche Bankal

analyzing AB and Amro like which one of

these banks could go bankrupt tomorrow.

That's how bad it was. In the end most

of the banks survived but at the time it

looked like any bank could it's like

it's like watching popcorn in the

microwave. You don't know which one is

going to blow out next. That's that's

how it felt.

>> So that that was that was a bad year uh

from that point of view. uh results were

great of course but the um it was a

horrible year from all kinds of

perspective otherwise uh I mean people

who run other things like long equity

these kind of things I mean they were

absolutely killed

>> oh yeah

>> I mean it looked like the end of end of

finance I mean this could have brought

down large part of the civilized world

this was it's hard to explain how big a

deal this was at the time

>> yeah

gosh yeah I I can't imagine that. I

can't imagine starting during that

period. Like that sounds like you in

having just started and curious when you

started like I imagine you staked a good

chunk of your personal net worth in the

fund. Um what was it like seeing those

swings being in the the heat the thick

of it?

>> Initially I did. Yes. And then initially

I did I started changing my view a

little bit about this thing. See it's

exactly what I did initially and yes

it's tough psychologically when it

starts moving up and down. What I come

what I come to realize over the years is

it's a very bad idea to to mingle your

personal money with the client's money

that you're managing. It's not good for

anybody involved. You get emotional

about it and that's what you want to

avoid. I would much rather allocate my

money to to other funds, other fund

managers I trust. I can manage their

money. They manage mine and we all have

we can all sleep at night and we can all

manage our client portfolios rationally

without emotions. I think my clients

would do better if I have no emotional

stake in what's going on. That means

that I I can focus on getting work done

and my

my focus is rational and not emotional.

So I I think it's better not to mix your

money with the client's money.

>> I don't know, controversial opinion.

Some some people think some some people

think you you you have to have skin of

the game.

>> Yeah, I get the expression, but

>> I don't think that's good for the

clients.

>> I much rather I much rather make a deal.

I allocate my money to other managers

and I manage their money for them.

I was going to press on, you know, along

the the hedge fund arc of your career,

and we're we're getting there, but I

want to take a side step just into into

into this just this this mini this mini

conversation. Um, the way I see it is,

let's say I launch a fund tomorrow and

Ethan Co has

$200 to his name, you know, and I and I

check it I check it in the uh I I check

it, you know, all you know, my last $200

in the fund. I imagine that would make

me sharp. That would put me in a

position where, okay, there's stress,

there's pressure, you know, if I lose my

$200, I'm at zero, right? Um, and maybe

I have a wife and I have kids, right?

Because most people in that who are

starting funds are, you know, quite late

in their career, well, at least, you

know, to they've already somewhat built

a life for themselves. Um, doesn't that

sharpen you? Doesn't that make you make

great decisions and say, "Okay, I cannot

mess up because if I mess up, my

livelihood is, you know, gone."

>> I'm not convinced. I'm trying to I'm

trying to find some stupid analogy here.

I don't know. Um

I don't know. You play uh you you play

computer games. I suppose if you play

let's say play a play a shooter game.

Now you don't have emotions in it. If

you get you get shot, you respawn,

right? You can make you can you can

probably think it through and make a

rational decision. A real bull is flying

next to your ear.

You might think twice before you take

that hill. Maybe that's a good idea.

Maybe it's a bad idea. Maybe that's you

know what I mean. You will react very

very differently when something is at

stake. Doesn't mean you got to make the

right decision because more is at stake.

You have emotions.

>> You have emotions with you here. Right?

This is like uh

it's like when it becomes real, you

throw the plan out the window because

now suddenly your body screams at you to

do something different from what your

training is. M

>> if if your your livelihood or your life

is not at stake, you can you can act

according to your training and get stuff

done.

>> Yeah,

>> that's uh you know what I mean. A stupid

analogy I know but you see what I mean

that if you have if you have a if you

have a plan you have thought through

what you're going to do in your trading

plan you know you made a plan for what's

what's going to happen in good or bad

markets and now suddenly something

extreme happens good or bad and now

you're thinking you know I I just I just

made 50% return this month it's an

extreme month and don't worry I'm not

saying that's normal I'm saying that's

an absolutely ridiculous abnormal month

but I say you make 50% return in a month

it's possible it's very unusual But it's

possible. And now you're thinking, "Yo,

my 200 bucks is 400."

>> Yeah.

>> I usually when this happens, it's going

to be a big loss after

I don't want to have the loss. I want to

have my 400 bucks. I better close down.

I better do something different.

>> But you can't predict the future, can

you? I mean, you know, you had a plan.

Why don't you stick to it? Or the other

way around. Say you you lose half your

money. Now you're down to 200. Your 200

is down to 100 bucks. And now you're

thinking, I I can't lose more. I got to

take risk off. Then you missed the

rebound because you got emotional and

you got you started your judgment

started getting clouded by

>> your money.

>> Yeah.

>> If you didn't have that, you could

follow the plan and do what you meant to

do and

>> get stuff done. I think your clients are

better off without without having the

emotions in there.

>> Okay.

>> That's I mean that's how I see it. I I

think you

>> then I see it. I see it. I

>> don't know. I I I have good friends who

whom I trust, whom whose trading and

investing abilities I have a lot of

respect for, who would very much

disagree with me. It's the way I see it.

It doesn't mean that that's

>> absolutely correct way of doing things.

It's it's the way I I I look at it.

>> Yeah,

I I can Yeah, I see I see a lot of valid

points about what you're saying. And I

guess you know going back to the the

hedge fund arc. So that was what you did

initially and then you stopped and then

you I guess you staked less of your

personal net worth so you could think

better under pressure. Um what was the

rest of that arc? So you know we're in

2008 2009. Those are tough years

emotionally but financially very good

years for CTA stuff.

>> Um and you know what was how did the

rest of that fund narrative play out and

where do you go from there? Yeah, I mean

it was good markets. I I was I told you

before I got lucky when I got into the

business. I got lucky when I got out of

it in the 90s. I got lucky again when I

I got into trend following and hedge

funds when it was fairly easy. Uh both

easy from a say regulatory point of

view. These days you need a lot more

capital to get started. I started with I

think somewhere between 40 and $50

million. it was in Swiss Frank so I

don't always I can't remember where the

Frank was at the time but so some

somewhere around there now that's not

not enough to start it have too much

cost I also got lucky in getting into

that type of strategies when the markets

were pretty good for that now what

changed since then um a big thing

changed

not necessarily the market itself the

hedge fund industry has has changed in

my view the hedge fund industry is is

not as fun as it used to be it's not as

interesting as it used to be.

So, let me try to explain. When I when I

started with this, first it was easier

to do it, right? Easier to to get

started. I'm not saying the trading was

necessarily easier, but it was easier to

set up a hedge fund and raise a capital

and get started.

Most importantly,

if you talk about these things, let's

say you have a trend following strategy

in 2007

and then you go talk to institutional

investors about it, you can build up

this good stories. You you explain trend

following. You explain the whole

diversification concept and you know you

have interested people listening to like

oh this is a cool concept you know they

work different markets work together

this way and you get these returns by

just following the trends and

you know what what you get today what

what response you get if you go out and

try that approach like yeah yeah but why

how many billions do you manage why why

do I give you money and not David

Harding I mean he manages 40 billion

what do you have

>> if you if your answer is a few hundred

million it's Yeah. Yeah. Come back when

you have at least 10 billion. Uh what

happened was

uh funds starting as an asset started

getting concentrated with the bigger

players.

>> Oh yeah.

>> The concepts around trend following and

similar things got much more well known

and

if you excuse the expression they become

commoditized.

Essentially it became a standard thing.

It's no longer this niche strategy. It's

the general accepted strategy that a lot

of massively large hedge funds are use

are using with great results.

So this is also I I I find myself

sometimes repeating the same analogies

here. So sorry about that. But I would

say it's it's a little bit similar to um

say they say you invent a slightly

better toothpaste

>> like you improve the you you made you

analyze Colgate and you made a slightly

better thing. If you can prove that

you're you're 15% better than than

Colgate, yeah, who cares? What are you

going to do? You're going to go out to

to Walmart and talk to their buyers and

how many millions are you spending on

the marketing? I mean, what's your

distribution channels? How many people

are you are you hiring AC across the US

for uh for talking to uh the big

institutional buyers at the

supermarkets?

It's a different thing. Nobody cares.

It's brand management.

So that's the reason that hedge funds

became a lot less interesting. Nobody

cares if your sharp ratio is slightly

higher.

>> That's not the game anymore.

>> That's it's interesting you say it's

interesting you say that. I was speaking

to one of my friends um a couple weeks

back and he was having a conversation

with a CIO of one of the big

multi-managers

um and and this was what I thought as

well at the time until he told me um he

asked the CIO

you know the person who can raise the

most money is the person with the best

strategy right was he was asking and the

the CIO get goes I know that's a load of

load of nonsense. Um, it's who knows the

most people who can who can really raise

money. And I I I'm sure you having been

in the space, having worked with this,

you know, wealthy private bank, you

know, private banker guy, um, especially

in a place like Switzerland, I'm sure

there's, um, and and now running money

at a family office. I'm sure you would

you would you would you'd agree with

that and you you'd see that.

>> Sure. I mean, you can say if if

everything else is equal,

>> yeah,

>> then the strategy and the sharp ration,

all of that stuff matters.

>> But if you're just an unknown unknown

guy somewhere racing, I don't know, 20

million friends or family, you've been

managing it for for two years with a

sharp ratio of I don't know, say

ridiculously high of like three and a

half or something or your shop ratio and

now you think you can go and get a

hundred million dollar ticket.

Nobody's gonna take your phone call. Why

would they? Then again, if if you have

the same assets, you have the same uh

same salespeople, same network, you're

managing uh I don't know, you're

managing half a billion bucks, you've

been doing that for 10 years, and your

results are better. That's also another

thing. I come back to that later.

Definition of best strategy is a is a

fun expression as well for all kinds of

reasons. But let's say you're you're

objectively better than the other guy

who's got everything else the same.

Yeah, you got an advantage. It's not

like the strategy doesn't matter, but

just having a great strategy and no

track record, no aum, no pedigree, no

background, no connections.

>> Yeah.

>> Doesn't take him far. This doesn't take

him far.

>> I I want to do a thought experiment now.

So, we've established that it's network,

it's pedigree, it's experience year

after year after year running a big

book. Mhm. Um

let's say there's someone in that in a

position where maybe he's running a

personal portfolio or a friends and

family portfolio um in a like even

within a fund structure right but small

you know very lean team and let's say he

goes to you Andreas you've been in the

space for a while I want to scale what

do you tell

I don't know. I mean, this is what

everybody wants to know. How do you

scale? Well, you need to raise money.

How do you raise money? Well, if you

don't have connections, you might need

to get salespeople.

You probably need to uh to pay a uh what

in Switzerland they call a retro. I

would call the kickback, but that's uh

so when when you start with, let me

explain myself. Uh when you first start

a fun fund, you you set your fees,

right? So if it's 220 or one and a half,

whatever your fees are, and now you

budget for that until you realize that

the people who can help you raise money

want a big chunk of that.

>> What chunk do they ask for typically?

>> It's been a while since I paid retros. I

haven't uh I haven't played that game

for some time. I I don't like that. But

back in the days

could be uh 25 30 points.

>> And I'm talking I'm talking recurring.

So

>> forever in perpetuity.

>> Oh yeah. As long as my client is in, I

loaned money every year.

>> Sure. That that that's how it's played.

And in Switzerland it until a few years

ago, not that I'm the regulatory expert

here, but uh until a few years ago, you

didn't have to disclose to your clients

that you do this.

So like you if you back then theory

here, you you come to me and then ask

for uh you know, Andreas, what should I

invest in? I got a great fun. I got a

buddy who runs something here. I I get

you in. Now I call my buddy saying that

this Ethan has no idea what he's doing.

He wants to invest 5 million with you

and you know I I want to have like 30

points of of his fee back to my personal

account. I'm not telling you, of course.

I'm telling him. That's how it was

played in the old days. That's why I I'm

not a big fan of this whole um

retro/kickback system, but that that's

how uh Swiss Finance used to very much

spin a spin on this uh this type of

model. Uh since uh regulatory change

maybe I don't know five years ago or

something like that. I think uh they it

has to be disclosed somewhere uh deep in

the footnotes towards the clients.

>> Yeah.

>> At least the uh the

>> exactly I mean you know I'm being

slightly sarcastic here but it's

Swiss finance used to very much spin on

this kind of um

kickbacks. People could make a living

from just being buddies with rich

people.

>> Oh yeah. They they they tell the rich

friends where to invest and they get a

kickback from it and they can make a

living from it. That's

>> Oh, yes. Used to

>> collecting 30 basis points on a billion

dollars.

>> Okay. Billion is

>> that it's unusual for people to do that

with a Yeah, it's

enough to make a dent anyway. Enough to

enough to matter.

>> But but yeah, um usually have to pay for

this. So, how how do you scale? Well,

we're back to the whole thing. make

yourself different

because if if you think that your back

tested sharp ratio is going to raise

money for you, you're in for a surprise.

It's not uh you need to figure out the

way for people to care.

>> What is that way?

>> I don't know. I mean, you could do

something stupid like write a book for

instance and see what happens. That's uh

uh that's uh it's not it's not the

reason I wrote books but yes I raised

quite a bit of money over the years

because people knew who I am because of

books. M

>> uh so

>> I mean

>> I started writing books for fun but it

was an unexpected side effect that it

was much easier to write to to raise

money because suddenly people have some

idea of who I am otherwise I'd be just

some anonymous European somewhere that

nobody ever heard of.

>> Yeah. I mean you you have to figure out

what makes sense.

>> Yeah.

>> Does writing books work anymore?

>> I don't know. You tell me. Does your

generation write read books anymore or

is it just that

>> I think I think you got I think you got

to tell like you know I think you got to

you know make make some reals on

Instagram on Tik Tok. Maybe people will

be more interested if you do that.

>> Yeah I I hate that. I I was uh I was

asked by our um different story. I won't

bore you with that. But our our uh CMO,

our marketing officer for for a company

I'm involved in asked me to record some

Tik Tok res. And I tell you that's um

yes I was um I I I was looking at my

balcony here for a while thinking how

far is it down would it you know is is

it sufficient distance I mean to to to

do um I don't I don't mind talking for I

can go up on stage and talk for an hour

in front of people no problem but if you

ask me to record a 25 to 30 minute video

with an entry hook with a CTA call in

the end with a

>> no please save me. Um,

>> yeah.

>> No, not a big fan of that. But yeah, do

something. I mean, if I don't know these

days, I don't know if if if this short

Instagram reels, whatever it is.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, quite frankly, I I from what

I've seen, most of the social media is

full of on finance side and a way full

of uh they say functioning idiots who

have no idea what they're talking about

making absolute nonsense about finance.

So, if if you're the clever guy on

social media talking about finance and

Yeah, maybe that's the way it stays.

>> Yeah.

I I I know for sure that um even like

starting this podcast and um just

putting myself asking questions, I've

learned a lot. I mean, I do it for

learning, but you know, I've I've you

know, some opportunities have come up on

the side um from a student's

perspective. It's it's it's been like

I've been very thankful and grateful for

those for those opportunities. Um and

what you were saying about the attention

spans, man, it's it's bad and getting

worse. Like I I I I consider myself

someone who's you know I I I study quite

hard and I work quite hard but even

myself I feel my attention span just

isn't where it could be you know.

>> Yep. I know what you mean. It it's

happening to all of us but uh yeah

probably if you grow up with these

things it's uh it's more difficult.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean I I got I got my first email

address when I was like 18. So I think

at least I had

>> Yeah.

>> Which was very early by the way. It was

>> Oh, yeah. Cuz you were I mean you're in

like very early into the IT like the.com

thing. So

>> I was Yes. That's that was a very weird

thing when um I was into computers very

early and

>> in '94 when I joined university

I was part of the uh the computer club

in the basement which is something you

don't really talk about when you're

hanging out with the with the party

club. I was actually part of both the

computer club and the kind of party frat

equivalent of the US and call it

something different but I was kind of

part of the of both sides and you don't

mix them in 94 understanding computers

was seen as slightly embarrassing you

you you don't talk about it like having

an email address and understanding Unix

Unix syntax when when in those days were

like not something you talk about 95 you

saw a little bit change 96 6. 96 was

absurd. Most absurd, most weird year of

my life because suddenly

the things that we would kind of be

hiding it's uh I don't know now people

grow up with it. So it sounds weird but

you you would we were all kind of in the

closet with computer knowledge. It's

it's not something you talk about to the

outside world. the outside world will

never understand our computer knowledge

like and then suddenly 96

like your grandmother has has a has a

web page

>> just like you you have I don't know

strange people coming up to you in in in

the uh in the school pub asking you how

to configure a modem it's like what

what's going on suddenly the thing that

we've been doing for so many years

became something that now all of a

sudden everybody wants to pretend that

they liked all along and now M

>> everybody jumped on the internet 96.

There was a weird year. There was like

when when our kind of almost secret

halfway embarrassing hobby became

absolutely mainstream.

96.

>> Wow.

Such a such a different time.

>> It was it was suddenly one year.

Suddenly one year and that's when most

weird things happened. That that's why I

started my first company. I mean I had a

I remember that actually there was a

girl at my university I didn't even know

comes up to me suddenly and says uh

you're the one who knows computers right

my mother's company needed someone

someone who knows computers do you have

a company yet

no but I could start one

>> that's how odd it was I didn't sit down

and think I'm I'm going to be an IT

entrepreneur I'm going to start a

company

>> people kept coming to me like

>> you're the one who knows computers

you want to do some work for this

company? After a few times, he asked, I

started a company and I took it from

there.

>> Yeah.

>> Strange times.

>> Oh, yeah. No, for for certain. And

you've had a

like a a career that

you've had an interesting career. That's

uh you know, it um you you've run books

at hedge funds. What's the biggest book

you've you've um you've run by the way?

Just curious. Trading book. Um

biggest single book or

depends on your point of view or how

much money at the same time. I might

have had multiple books at the same

time.

>> Yeah,

>> I would say in the in the range between

US dollar equivalent uh 200 to 300.

>> Okay, cool. Wow. Nice.

>> Not which which is not huge in this

business. No, as I thought. I mean, but

it's it's Yeah. Yeah. But but it's it's

good enough, but it's not it's not

enormous.

>> I mean, yes, I know. I know how it

sounds for especially for somebody not

in trading. If you say that running like

$250 million is is not huge, but it is

not huge.

>> It's it's an interesting business, but I

mean I I saw for instance um as I

mentioned before, I I I saw that you had

uh Rob Carver on the on the um on the

call another day. I I know him very well

since many years. It's not his company

but he was running a few billion so

that's

>> different thing you do things

differently there large organization but

yeah he he ran much larger portfolios

than I did

>> yeah no I mean the the it's one of the

industries where

margin I mean as long as your strategy

can scale and I know that's a big

constraint um there's no real limit to

the amount someone can run

>> right um like on a on a personal level

>> oh There's always a limit. Oh, what I

mean in which in which regard?

>> No, no. I I mean it's like I mean it's

just the scale can just go up and up and

up as in I had a I had someone on um a

couple weeks ago he um used to run money

at both Citadel and Millennium and he

was running a billion dollar book which

like you hear that's what that's big

right or I had some partners at um at

this quant fund based in New York and

they have well they manage 1.4 before

it's like you know it's like you just

hear these numbers it's like it's wow

right

>> yeah but also I mean keep in mind as

well that whether or not the billion

dollar portfolio is big or not depends

on what you're managing

I mean if you're managing I don't know

fixed income portfolio or something like

that it's

>> numbers go up very quickly

>> and also it's a funny misconception of

people who never worked in the business

that

they think that if if you manage his

portfolio, 100 million, a billion,

whatever it is, it means that somebody

gave you the the the key to the candid

store. Do whatever you like with this

and make more money.

>> That's not how the industry works. Does

not work like that.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, yes, we trust you so much. Go

trade it. Knock yourself out. Come back

in a year and tell us how much money we

got.

>> Yeah.

>> No, no, no. That that's uh that's

fantasy. That's a great

>> Yeah.

>> Just like Yeah. Go ahead.

>> Yeah. No. So, you know, we've done you

you've had a wide career running all

sorts of different books, hedge fund,

getting sued, you know, um

>> well, attempted sued. It never went to I

think I think has some legal threats. It

never went to lawsuit.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. You're earning

money at a family office right now. And

you mentioned you also have a startup on

the side. Tell me a bit about those two

things. Um what you do today, how you

split your time.

>> Sure. Um yeah, I mean I I always uh had

problem focusing entirely on on on one

single thing. I always done a lot of

things at the same time. Uh yes, I I

still have um I'm the chief investment

officer of a family office here in uh in

Switzerland. Think what else do I do? Uh

so I I have a couple of years ago I I

co-founded a US-based fintech venture.

We have an investment app called Hush

Investments

where we we do two things. First, we are

America's first completely free asset

manager. We are running the investment

grade um investment grade algorithmic

investment models. Minimum investment

$5. We want to build it for absolutely

everybody.

>> I can charge 200 in there. Easy.

>> Yeah, exactly. Put your 200 bucks in

there. Yeah, I'll do my best. U and we

um uh we we manage that automatically.

We we charge no fees for any account

smaller than $100,000.

We want to just expand and we want to

help people who frankly are sold over

expensive nonsense. At the moment we

have extremely low unit costs so we can

take on these customers

>> without charging them. On the other

side, we have um in the same um same

app, we have a more uh more exclusive

offering for people over 100,000 where

we we charge a low fee and 75 points.

It's fairly low fee for that kind of

thing. With hedge fund like strategies,

we do much more say more risky, more

advanced things than we do for uh for

the free accounts,

more configurable where we are competing

with hedge funds on the on the high end

side and we are trying to

do something better than all of this uh

there's a lot of nonsense in the ro

advisor sphere, a lot of nonsense in the

RAIA sphere. We're trying to improve on

that and do it for free on on the lower

end side and uh we charge only on the on

the high-end stuff. That's that's what

I'm doing at the moment. I'm the chief

investment officer of that and one of

two co-founders and we're we have the

app out in um Apple and um and Google

stores and it's been a it's been an

interesting ride and quite a new thing

for me to to run a run a startup is very

very different from I've been an

entrepreneur most of my life most of my

life but running a fintech startup is

extremely different in many ways.

>> What are some of those differences?

Well, the biggest difference is the

companies I started in the past are

designed to be pretty much profitable

from day one.

>> I mean, you don't start a a hedge fund

or

>> other finance ventures I had before. You

you don't start them unless you have the

committed capital. At least I I

wouldn't.

>> And I know that

>> I'm I'm making money from day one no

matter what. When I start those things,

even back in the days when I had my uh

my first consulting company, I mean, I'm

risking my time. That's it. I always

brand companies that are cash flow

positive from from from day one. Uh you

build and scale a venture in real scale.

You will not make money for years. I

mean you will not be be break even for

years. You're raising money and you

spending that money to uh to expand to

grab market share and raising more money

to grow further to to raise the value of

the company for for the those investors

who trusted you in the first place. So

it's a very different way of of working

but I'm getting into it. Luckily I have

good company. Uh I have no expertise in

well now maybe after two years but uh my

co-founder in this venture has done this

in quite large scale before he sold a

couple of companies before he started

and scaled and sold a couple of consumer

based companies in the past at quite

high levels. So I had a good guide. We

we're good at different things. We're

working together for for a couple of

years now.

>> Very cool.

What prompted the

thesis to start something like this? Has

you been in the hedge fun space? Would

love to hear more.

>> Right. So, so I mentioned before that um

this idea that seemed silly in the in to

begin with that nobody in the industry

agreed with me when I started writing

books.

Really everybody I spoke to told me

don't do this. You don't want to you

don't want to write a book. This not

nothing good comes from that. I did it

anyway because I wanted to. That was the

first one is that's my first book. There

we go. U

so a lot of weird things came from this.

I I could I could give you I could spend

the entire session here give you weird

anecdotes of good and bad things that

came from the books. But one thing that

happened was this guy who started

contacting me with odd questions. It

happens from time to time. But I had a

feeling that this guy is fishy for

something. He's not just looking for

answers to this trading questions and

things. And yeah, he finally got to the

point. He just had an exit from his

previous venture and he was looking to

start something new and he was

interested in the fintech space, but he

needed the domain knowledge. He had a

knowledge. He's got the tech knowledge.

He's got the knowledge to to build and

scale this kind of consumer companies,

but he need a co-founder with the um

with the domain knowledge in in finance.

So, oh, I guess that's me.

So, we we got to know each other first.

I mean, I think we um just contact for a

year or so getting to know each other,

see that we can work together and we

finally decided to start something

together. That's that's the uh the

background.

>> So, you met him online? That's

>> Yeah, I mean he u he contacted me. I

mean now now obviously I know him very

well. I mean

>> he's based in New York and I'm over

there quite often meeting him or meeting

over here and

>> yeah that's

>> that's the thing I mean um that's what I

mentioned that you make yourself visible

and sometimes um things come to you.

>> Fascinating. Wow.

>> Yeah. Dumb luck story of my life.

What

do you hope to change about the industry

through this venture?

>> I mean, I see a lot of things in the

consumer market,

the the finance consumer market in the

US that I really don't like.

I'm not sure if I can change the

industry, but at least I can make a

positive contribution to to people who

who need these type of services. I mean,

sometimes I I'm frankly upset when I see

the kind of nonsense sold to unsuspected

retail people in in the US.

Uh, much of this depends on exactly what

you're doing, but some of it is

regulated, some not.

Even the regulated ones do often

unethical things. The ones who are not

regulated

do insane things. By the way, uh if you

ever wonder why

pretty much anything you see with the

word forex or crypto is a scam, that's

because it's not regulated. You can say

and promise anything and do whatever you

like because there's no agency

overlooking it. Um so like if I if I

invest in stocks for my clients, I'm

regulated. If I invest in futures, I'm

regulated. If I invest in currencies,

I'm not regulated. I can promise

anything. I can say, you know what, I'm

going to double your money every month.

There's no agency preventing me from

saying that. That's why Forex is almost

somebody says Forex think scam

>> because that's that's why they say my

Forex bot doubles your money every every

10 minutes, whatever nonsense they claim

because no law prevents them from lying.

That's why. Anyway, that's one part of

it. The other part is a lot of this

fintech startup stuff and these apps,

they do silly gimmicks.

I almost gave you an example but if I

give you an example you will identify

which company it is and I don't want to

I don't want to attack them directly but

many of them do ridiculous sex I mean

they invest in like gimmicky ways that

sound fun on paper and it's really not

good for the investor

u so I want to do something good there I

also don't want to so what I do here

with this venture I don't target the the

people interested in finance with this

as in I'm not looking for the same I'm

I'm not looking for the same crowd who

would go to Robin Hood for instance

>> Robin Hood people who open Robin Hood

accounts they they want the action of it

they want to be they want to trade they

want to hear about cool terminology they

want to hear about spreads and pip and

pips and schmips whatever the the they

want to be they want to talk about this

and they want to feel like the cool

finance guys and fine let them

>> not my market

>> I'm I'm primarily targeting the people

who just want a solution.

>> This is a large part of the US. I mean

big problem in the US is uh I'm sure you

know better than I do

people's the the personal finances in

general especially if you go inland. I

mean you're you're at the coast coast

are different. You go a bit inland most

people have little to no savings little

to no no no no no cushion for

everything. There's no saving.

Everything is bought on uh on credit.

It's it's a bad behavior perpet per

perpetuating itself. We're trying to

offer a solution for people who have

very little money to start small saving

and starting start to build something

like

>> long-term responsible asset management,

not too much risk. I'm not aiming for

very high risk here. I'm aiming for for

for slow steady growth of capital,

highly diversified. We also have uh

that's why we built in a feature and or

built in a thing in the app where if you

sign up to this the free part the free

app we do it for free but you have to

put some money into your account every

week and we don't make money from this

right because we don't charge a fee on

assets we put this in because we want to

help people build their savings. It can

be $1, can be $2.

>> Yeah.

>> Something needs to go into your account

every week.

>> Yeah.

>> And yeah, you can take it out. So if you

really want to just defeat the system,

you can let I don't know 10 bucks go in

every week and take 10 bucks out. You

can take out money at a time. Fine. But

the point is we want to try to encourage

some healthy financial habits. Even if

you have almost no money

>> starting with this, put five bucks in

and five bucks a week. Let it grow. Even

if you have you're in horrible financial

situation, give it a few years. It it's

going to make a difference.

>> Yeah. Just the habit of saving and and

investing slowly over time will make a

difference.

>> Yeah,

>> I don't know. I know it sounds uh

essentially altruistic for a for a

cynical finance guy and I I am a cynical

finance guy, but I I think we can

actually help people here a little bit.

Yeah.

>> How do you make money if you're I mean

it it sounds amazing. How do you what's

the Yeah. What's keeping you sustained?

>> Multiple ways. Um

long story short, I give you a short

story. First of all, we are monetizing

the um the larger accounts.

>> Yeah.

>> And we're getting a lot of interest on

uh on the larger accounts. Yeah. 75

basis points, but raise enough there. We

we we can make a we can make a dent

there. Uh we have extra uh extra things

we are selling to the um uh the high net

worth crowd including like personal

events um networking get togethers in in

person. We have events to get meet each

other. Um we have um uh we have a few

extra features on that side. We

want to make some money there but we

also want to massively scale the other

part the the um uh the individual users

because there's two sides of it.

Individual users means a long-term

company value.

People are still trusting us to to

invest here in the early stage where by

investing in the company means we need

to we need to focus on increasing value

of the company for early investors in

the company. That's why we want to have

a massive amount of people. We can make

money on the other side. Uh then of

course we are raising uh raising DC

money to um uh to fund the expansion.

Once we have a large enough um large

enough audience on both sides, it's very

easy to monetize this audience. But I

want to be sure that we are monetizing

the people who can afford to pay for it.

>> Yeah. not the not the uh the the uh

single mom in in Kentucky who really

should not be spending money on on your

streets or paid Wall Street with people,

you know.

>> Yeah,

>> we we have monetization per plan in in

place but right now the focus is on

expansion.

So we are

>> no the problem you point out with the US

um the financial position

>> like I and ever since moving here um and

even though I am on the coast but it

really feels like as a society

it really is every man for himself doggy

dog um you're

if you're out of work for a little bit

it's very hard to get back in the game

and stay relevant. Um I think there are

countless people I mean within the

financial sector who are there

definitely performing called bulge

bracket top fund um maybe lose their job

maybe they leave and you can't go back

like it's it's hard it can be very hard

and extremely punishing to get back in

the game and like I admire what you're

doing for people who have little to no

financial literacy um and you know

getting them to Dave, I I think in the

US every it's truly keeping up with the

Joneses.

>> Yeah. I mean, don't misunderstand me. I

mean, I think it's obviously obviously

I'm I'm building a company that's going

to make money. I'm building a company

that will increase in value.

>> Yeah.

>> But if I but if I can do that and

actually help people in the same at the

same time, so much the better. I don't

think you you don't necessarily there's

a large part of large part of finance

that has the attitude of of ripping

people off because the finance tradition

has done I think you can build

successful businesses in finance

by not while not ripping people off and

actually help people in the process

>> but that's a longer story um but yeah

America has a has a debt problem that's

for sure I'm not talking about the the

nation here I'm I'm talking about the

the individual your consumers.

That's

it. It's it's a problem. Uh I mean

sometimes I was asked the other day uh I

was sent was sent

sometimes you get those random questions

about uh some people asking for for help

or guidance with something. It happens

when you write books. It's easy to write

easy to write to reply when somebody's

asking like I don't know how do I uh how

do I calculate the correlation matrix?

Yeah, I'll help you with that. But I get

an email like, how do I manage my how do

I get out of this spot? And like

somebody describing like I I'm making

30,000 a year and my wife is making

25,000 a year. Uh we have these debts on

this and this and uh our our our kid

just uh got diagnosed with something. We

have this medical cost and like I'm

looking at this thinking, I have no

idea. I'm terrified. I don't I don't

even know how to begin to reply to this.

I mean, but

I'm I'm I'm European. This this is a

situation that would be very difficult

to imagine here. I mean, especially

since the big problem that situation was

bad to begin with, but I then I see this

medical things and don't worry, I'm not

I'm I'm I'm keeping my my big mouth out

of US uh medical policies here. But uh

to me it's just as European shocking

that somebody's life gets destroyed

because of the family member gets

diagnosed with a disease. But it's I

don't know. I'm just terrified when I

read it. I don't know how to respond to

that. But I think if if if people start

earlier and start start slowly saving

even if it's not much the problem is

biggest problem is that people who have

very little money are the ones who often

tend to resort to gambling mindset as in

>> oh

>> if you don't have much money you're

thinking all I have is my 200 bucks I

might as well take a big big gamble

because either I'm going to make 10

times return or I lose it and so what

it's just 200 bucks.

>> Yes. Yes,

>> it happens again and again and again. If

you instead stop gambling, stop doing

stupid things and just

invest it slowly, not big risk. I mean,

I'm perfectly happy to take big risk for

people who can afford to lose money. If

you if you come to me and you want me to

invest 10 million of your your personal

money on a high-risisk strategy, yeah,

I'll do it. But if you come and say that

200 bucks is all you have in in the

world, I'm going to be very very careful

with your 200 bucks. I'm not taking much

risk with that.

>> Yeah.

>> They should people who don't have much

money should be much more careful with

what they have. Slow and steady growth,

not not crazy risk.

>> Yeah. No, I

fully agree. And I think it's so sad how

gambling, how degeneracy,

like if I were to be long any trend,

unfortunately, I would be long gambling.

I belong to generacy because I think

that um there's this nihilism today

where

it's hard to get a great job.

>> Um

>> the people with capital are

consolidating it. I mean we spoke about

it on for the hedge fund perspective. If

we think the tech perspective, you know,

the large caps, they're they're getting

larger and larger. uh the rich are truly

just you know accumulating unbelievable

sums of wealth while I wouldn't even

just say middle class people but middle

class even upper middle class people are

are getting squeezed and don't even get

me started on lowerass people

>> um

>> I mean funny thing is I I just remember

before I started my first real fund

>> 25 years ago or something I I found a

website I have to find it somewhere if

it's still around where you could start

the fund as in paper fund and they they

they set the rules and tracking

everything so it feels like you're

running a real fund. It is sandbox money

but you can create your own funds and

you have to follow all kinds of

compliance diversification rules all of

this stuff to make it realistic. So I I

set up a couple of funds for fun and

started managing there. Now one of the

funds I set up because uh in case um

anybody missed it I have a very weird

sense of humor. I set up a fund I called

something like u decadence corruption

and greed and I just picked the absolute

worst companies in the world. I mean as

in companies that do things that I

personally find extremely unethical

>> just dudious.

>> Oh yes yes yes. I mean there was anybody

involved in actually not only what I

personally find what I personally find

objectional but but people in general.

So I I invested obviously in any company

involved in um uh

any anybody involved in pretty bad

things. Uh I even included things like

alcohol and tobacco. Fine. It's not like

it's horrible, but I included those as

well. I included any company that has a

uh a mercenary wing. You'll be surprised

how many listed companies actually um

employ those things. Yeah. Yeah. Don't

don't do too much research into it.

You'll you'll grow too cynical. Uh some

of the companies have um armed people in

Africa making sure people do what you

want and there's all kinds of unethical

things in the world. But anyway, I I

picked the worst possible companies. I

even found a couple of porn companies

that were listed back back then. I think

they went bankrupt after that. Anything

that's just for whatever fun reason fits

my my loose definition of this. That

fund did extremely well.

Extremely well. And I just for fun

picked companies that did something that

at least by some measure of of

definition could be uh could be

classified as immoral companies. I put

it pretty loose definition. I'm not that

I'm not that that much of a moral boring

guy, but um still that's uh that's what

happens. Any company that the more the

more they pollute the world and the more

anything of that, the more I I weighted

them on that. So, yep, they did well.

Really well.

I have this one friend and we speak

about this about this nihilism this

like we're both at good schools and it

seems that even in a position like that

first of all it's still not it's not

easy it's not a ticket the way it used

to be 30 years ago 20 years ago even 10

years ago um but whenever we're speaking

sometimes we get into this conversation

about this doomerism, this nihilism for

for

you know for for just for for average

people right for people who don't work

super hard maybe I consider myself quite

hardworking and even for for me I think

it's it's challenging environment but

you know people who you normal want to

have a I like it's just

I feel like it's just such a challenging

period and I don't and for you as

someone who who wants to help these

people who's who's had a great career,

who's written a bunch of books.

How do you navigate this world?

I I have no idea. I

It's It's very difficult question to

answer. I mean, um

do the best I can, I suppose. I mean, I

I I shifted cultures a few times in my

life, as in I I moved around quite a

lot. different countries, different

cultures, different languages, and you

see different perspectives. I think

that's that's probably why I have a

different perspective of these kind of

things. I I understand many different

backgrounds and cultures and and I I

always refuse to be um to be to be uh

classified of any any particular

category. I'm sure some people watch now

thinking that oh, he must be part of

this political party or that political

party or this thing. No, I'm not. I I

don't like any political part. But it's

for all kinds of reasons. Most of all

because I was part of one many years ago

and I guess that's why I grew cynical. I

was a youth politician when I was about

about no younger than you actually. I

was a youth politician and uh learned

not to do that again. Um after I was

offered a I was off offered an

attractive seat in Swedish politics once

and uh realized that was not a good

idea.

>> I don't know how I navigate this. I I do

the best I can. And I I look at the

world and I try to um figure out what to

do. And

I'm in finance. Uh nobody in nobody in

finance is entirely good guy. I would I

would say that that that's that's what

finance is. You know, we wouldn't be

here if we do everything right and moral

all the time. But it doesn't mean we

have to do everything bad all the time

either. You know what I mean? There's

always there's always middle ground to

things. Unfortunately, these days it's

middle ground is never popular and

anything. It's uh I think the I blame

the internet. Everything is getting too

extreme. You're forc

to pick sides between extremes. I I

don't like doing that. I I I look for

middle grounds. I guess I'm I'm Swedish

Swiss, so like I'm from two countries.

I'm I'm from two countries with a with a

tradition of taking a middle ground and

being the mediators between two sides.

So I guess that's pretty deep in my my

culture

>> historically. Historically.

>> Yep. I used to say that I'm double

neutral, but now uh my native Sweden

joined NATO, so I guess I can't say that

anymore.

Last question.

And I want to angle this to be a bit

more advice because, you know, we're on

that topic now. Might as well stick with

it. And I always like

I always like ending this the the

conversations with advice because it's

just a natural place. And it it also

shows an interesting part about the

guest. Andreas, you've been in the world

of quant trading in in in computer

science in finance and in now starting a

fintech venture writing books and I was

even going to ask about the you know

sort of narrative book about Swiss

private banks but we didn't have we

don't have enough time for that. Um

exactly exactly well you know it'll be

in the you know if anyone's interested

in that sort of thing you can search it

up. Um, but

I want to go back to trading. That's how

we started. That's how we'll end. But

trading

as a means to learn things about life.

And I am curious after all your years in

this space has there anything about risk

about edge that you've learned from

running

200 million $300 million books that

you've applied to your personal life?

>> Probably not. I mean I mean one thing is

okay the one thing is detach your

emotions. This this part of the whole um

don't manage your own money. I I used to

have more of an issue

decade or more ago with taking things

too personally in the market. I mean,

you can't live like that. Markets go up

and down. Sometimes you have big losses

and sometimes you have big gains. You

can't let that affect your mental state

and your personal life.

I mean, you you you can't come home as a

wreck when you have a horrible day and

you you come men are depressive, you

know?

You can't live like that. Not for long.

Uh detach. I think you become a better

asset manager if you start looking at at

uh at money as monopoly money. It's not

real. It's a way of keeping score, not

your money. You talking the money you're

managing. I I think it's better for the

clients. I think it's better for

yourself. You can act rationally.

You can't take it personally. You you

can't, you know, be depressed when you

have a horrible day and a horrible week,

horrible month. I mean, we all have

that. I mean, anybody, I don't care how

successful you have you are, unless

you've been extremely ridiculous lucky.

You had horrible times. You know, you're

in a big draw down. Clients take out

their money. You have people calling and

screaming at you. This happens. Now,

what do you do? Are you going to be

totally depressed and go go drink

yourself to sleep? And you can't live

like that.

uh you need to detach. Don't take it

personally.

And that's also why I recommend don't

mix your money with client money. Act

rationally. It's just a business.

That's actually a core thing I usually

push that. Remember, it's a business.

It's not we're not in this for the love

of trading and the love of this and

this. It's a business.

We hopefully we're good at the business.

And if we're good at the business,

everybody makes money, including the

clients. But it's a business.

>> I love that. Detached. Stay detached.

It's a business. And then your former

advice on just do the best you can. I