Hey all, today we're going to be

analyzing the communication in police

interrogation techniques. I'm Dr. Allo

Kenosha, a Harvard-trained psychiatrist,

and I'll be breaking down which

communication techniques work, which

ones don't, and how they work. So, let's

dive in.

>> Well, this video is incredibly

disturbing to watch. The man being

interrogated is Thomas Perez Jr. He

reported his father missing. Fontana

police accused Thomas of killing his

dad.

>> It was August of 2018. Fontana police

were convinced Perez's father had been

murdered. They thought Perez appeared

suspicious.

>> It's really concerning to me that he

hasn't been back yet.

>> They asked Perez to come to the station,

and that's where they turned a missing

person case into a 17-hour

interrogation.

>> You murdered your dad.

>> No, I didn't.

>> Yes, you did.

>> Yeah, so what's what's kind of scary

about this? There's a couple of like

psychological principles here. So,

what's scary about this from a legal

perspective is they can, you know, ask

him in a 17-hour interrogation. They can

ask him, "Did you murder your dad?" like

500 times, and he can say no 500 times.

And then, the 501st time they ask him,

he says yes, and like that's what gets

cited at trial. That's scary thing

number one. Second thing is I think

people often times underestimate,

grossly underestimate, what

psychological pressure does to you. So,

with like a 17-hour interrogation, your

brain is going to be so fatigued, right?

You're going to be so emotionally raw,

like all of your psychological defense

mechanisms that are healthy won't be

working. And psychological defense

mechanism doesn't mean like you're

you're like a master manipulator. This

just means that at that point, you know,

you're going to feel so raw, you're

going to feel so terrible, like you're

you're kind of trying trying to make

people happy. You're trying to just end

these sorts of things, and then you can

say all all kinds of stuff. One thing

that I think is a a really good example

of this is they did a lot of interesting

psychological studies, I think after

World War II, on some of the behavior of

like Nazis. So, after World War II

during some of these these criminal

trials on the Nazis, people started

designing psychological experiments to

see how hard you could push people

before they start complying. And there's

a really awesome experiment where they

set this this experiment up where

basically you had a subject and the

subject is in one room with a button.

And on and they have a microphone and

they can speak to somebody else that's

on the other side of the wall. And

there's a guy with a clipboard who's

like wearing a lab coat and a clipboard

and he says, "Okay, you've got a button

and every time you hit the button it's

going to administer a shock to the

person on the other side of the wall."

And so basically like they they set the

the shock setting to one and and the guy

with the lab coat instructs the person

to like hit the button. And the guy hits

the button. And then someone on the

other side is like, "Ow." And then the

guy with the lab coat turns it up to two

and they're like, "Hit the button." And

the guy like [clears throat] hits the

button again. So, he's like, "Ow." And

so they slowly start turning up the size

of the electrical shock. It's not a real

shock. There's really no one there.

They're acting. But what's really scary

is at some point the person on the other

side of the wall starts pleading with

the

the subject who's hitting the button.

They tell him, "I have a heart

condition. My heart doesn't feel good. I

think this electrical shock is like

causing me like heart problems." Like

and they're begging them to stop. And

the really scary thing is the person

with the lab coat like turns it up to

eight and he's like, "Hit the button.

Don't worry about what he's saying. Just

hit the button. Your job is to hit the

button." And what's scary about this

experiment is how compliant people are

to like figures of authority. And very

few people, if I remember correctly,

very few people actually like got up or

refused. Most people did what they were

instructed to do because the dude with

the lab coat is like, "This is part of

the experiment. We need to get all the

way to 10. Don't worry about it. Just do

what you're told." People who are under

a lot of authoritative pressure will do

all kinds of things to make the person

in power happy.

>> He just told you we found your dead dad

and you don't give

>> They even brought in Perez's best friend

to try and get a confession.

>> Dude,

they got you on murder, dude.

They got you on murder.

>> Impossible.

>> When that didn't work, detectives

brought in Perez's dog.

>> You killed him.

And he's dead.

And your dog

is sitting here looking at you, knowing

that you

killed your dad.

Did you stab him?

>> I didn't think that I did.

>> Right, so at this point, like your brain

is not functioning correctly. I'm just

curious, you know, you know, if people

told you something was true, and tons of

people came, people that you trusted,

and you just heard over and over and

over and over and over again, right?

They're basically gaslighting here.

That's what this is. Right, at what

point do you crack? At what point do you

start doubting what you think? And as

you get physically fatigued, as you get

mentally exhausted, do you start to

question your own thoughts?

>> Where would you stab him?

>> Might have been the belly.

>> They learned that Tom's father was alive

and well and was at LAX Airport ready to

take a flight to go visit his sister.

>> Steering filed a civil rights lawsuit in

federal court against the city of

Fontana, and the suit was settled for

nearly $900,000.

>> And one of the really interesting things

as a psychiatrist, one of the key things

they teach us is like the value of

silence. So, if you want someone to

start speaking, if you want to make

someone uncomfortable, just be quiet.

Okay, so this guy is

>> So, I get it, right?

>> arms crossed,

right? So, he's he's he's nodding along,

right? So, he's he's trying to signal to

this guy, hey, like I do get that you

get me, but his body language doesn't

really mirror that.

>> Whatever did happen in the apartment

between you and Michelle

that's resulted in her now disappearing.

We'll use that word for lack of a better

term, all right?

>> Um, it's my impression

that

what that was about, what that argument

was about, what that confrontation was

about last weekend, it wasn't about you

wanting to hurt Michelle. It was about

your love for Caden.

And it was about your burden

>> Right. Yeah, I'm

>> about protecting

Caden.

>> So, what I think is actually going on

here is I don't know, I mean, I don't

know what happened here, whether this

guy is guilty or not. See, when people

do things like this, often times what

the mind does is develops a narrative

that is what we call ego-syntonic. So,

ego-syntonic means jives with my idea of

who I am. So, it's not even clear to me

that this guy, before the detective

shares the story, really believes he was

trying to protect Caden. Maybe in that

moment he was just angry and lost

control. He didn't have this conscious,

like, "Oh my god, like, I have to do

this to protect the person I love, even

if it means doing something bad." Right?

These morally framed choices that we see

in movies are not how real life is. But

now the detective is offering him a

hypothesis,

which feels good, fits well with this

dude. Right? You're doing it for love,

not out of anger.

>> protecting

Caden.

>> All right, cuz he wasn't being taken

care of.

>> Exactly.

>> The detective has skillfully employed a

psychological technique known as the

good choice, bad choice method.

This method presents Mark with only two

options, forcing him to make a decision.

On one hand, there is a good choice, his

unwavering love for his son, Caden.

>> I don't know if this really jives.

>> hand, there is the bad choice, harboring

ill intentions towards Michelle.

>> So, the issue here is you don't have to

accept that frame. Right? So, this is

like really important. If you guys want

to learn manipulation resistance 101,

the best thing to do if someone is

boxing you into a yes or no choice,

don't accept the frame. It doesn't have

to be either or. You don't have to

accept if this is good or this is bad.

This is manipulation 101. So, it is a

psychological technique where you're

like, it was this or this. No, it

doesn't have to be either of those

things. I think the best person at doing

this is Jordan Peterson.

>> So, people say to me,

"What do you Do you believe in God?"

And I think, okay, there's a couple of

mysteries in that question.

>> Sorry, I suppose I'll make myself clear

here. I'm only asking for a yes or no.

>> Mark is inclined to favor and gravitate

towards one narrative, typically the one

that paints it in the most innocent

light.

>> It's not even about it innocent. It's

about good. It's we all want to think of

ourselves as good people.

>> telling you I could not

I'm listening to your story, man, and I

almost want to cry for you.

>> Empathic connection?

>> I I I just can't imagine

the stress and

the pressure put on you because of the

love you have for Cayden when you watch

this woman

continually berate him and treat him so

terribly, cuz she's doing the same thing

to you that she's doing to the

three-year-old, and you're an adult.

>> Mark is now in a situation where he

feels cornered.

>> He feels cornered? What?

He doesn't feel cornered.

This is not defensiveness.

>> He has two choices.

>> No, he doesn't.

>> stop talking and ask for a lawyer.

>> He's not cornered, he's connected.

>> She did not walk out of that apartment.

We both know it.

We both know the circumstances under

which

whatever did happen.

>> Now, this is interesting. So, so he he's

he's like pivoting away from rapport

to like, okay, bro, now that we're

together, like let's let's do real talk,

bro. Let's confront this negativity

together. This doesn't feel cornered at

all. This feels the exact opposite. This

feels open to me.

>> So, I want you to be honest with me and

tell me what happened.

>> She got up

and um

I got up

and um

she's getting dressed.

And she's finishing up.

And she's still yelling and Kayden's

hiding. I grabbed her and I broke her

neck.

Told me I was a sorry

and that I would she was going to

control me the rest of my life and I

grabbed her by her neck and she and and

just went threw her on the bed and she

just went

>> This isn't being cornered.

This is opening up. It's the exact

opposite.

That was it.

I mean, I sat there and held it and

So, this is important, too. Look at his

affect, right? Now, he's talking about

murdering someone.

And his response is, "Okay."

Now that he's talking, let's not

interrupt him.

Okay. So, now he's feeling remorse. Um

Give me the death penalty. That's fine.

Now he's ask- This is not cornered. You

guys get this?

This is guilt.

This is warmth. This is not cornered.

Now he's being supportive.

I mean, manipulation I think makes sense

to me here because I think that it's not

clear to me whether the police officer

is being inauthentic. But, this is what

we do in psychiatry, right? Like we try

to authentically connect with people.

The only thing that really strikes me as

manipulative here is we try to connect

with people in order to help them. And

I've worked with people who are I mean,

I've worked in a jail. I've worked with

people who are murderers, you know, like

literally like convicted. And so, we we

authentically connect with them and I

think this is an example of a guy who I

mean, we don't really know what

happened. We don't really know what's in

his mind, but like it sounds like he did

something that he genuinely regrets. And

the officer just created space for him

to share that because I mean, he's even

saying like he feels really guilty,

right? That's not manipulation. I mean,

I guess it's manipulation if you're

planning on using this authenticity to

like throw the book at him. But I mean,

this this felt like a really solid

interview with someone who made a

mistake and then feels guilty about it

and really did do something wrong and

recognizes what they did was really bad.

But maybe the reason that I see it that

way is is why I'm a psychiatrist instead

of a cop. Y'all, if y'all want to learn

a little bit more, by all means watch

another YouTube video. If you guys are

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that's where memberships comes in. And

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When someone is cornered, they get

defensive. So, like when someone is

cornered, right? Like they're getting

attacked on all sides and they're

retreating. So, when someone's cornered,

they're not going to open up. This is

actually the exact opposite. The police

officer is giving him a lot of space to

step out of the corner and offer his

feelings. Yeah, this was happening and

and like I did feel bad and I was trying

to protect Caden and this is what

happened. He's actually noticed that

that the the the subject of the

interrogation here is not trying to

defend himself. He's actually looking

for absolution. Absolution means opening

up, not closing down.

>> Hey, there.

How are you?

>> Good.

>> I'm Sergeant Leatherman. It's good to

meet you. How are you today? I guess you

had better days.

>> Yeah, sure.

>> Yeah, sure.

>> She does a good job of mirroring, too.

He's like, yeah, sure. Right? So, so he

opens up and she's like, you've had

better days, right? And then he's like,

yeah, sure. And then she's like, yeah,

sure.

>> Have some food. What would you like to

eat?

>> Something that I can eat.

>> Like what? Like a sandwich?

>> This is huge. So, one of the key thing

first things I I learned working in the

emergency department is even when

working with people who are psychotic,

high on cocaine, high on K2, want to

kill me, offering them food is like such

a primal basic human thing that really

like works wonders at calming people

down and building rapport. Feed people

that you care about. It's a great sign

of caring and feed people that you want

to build a relationship with.

>> Good to meet you. Rough day, huh? Want a

sandwich? Need the restroom? It looks

polite, humane, even, but it's not

casual, it's strategic. What you didn't

see is that this man was left alone in

that room for 30 minutes before Sergeant

Terpstra walked in. Think about that.

Nothing but your thoughts, no phone to

distract you, nothing on the walls.

>> Yeah, this is where if you guys want to

prepare yourselves

if you guys want to prepare yourselves,

what you'll need to do is check out our

staring at a wall for an hour exercise.

There's a really good video that Kabir

actually uploaded of a time lapse of him

doing it. It's really funny.

>> Your mind starts racing and then relief

walks in. Calm voice, soft tone, even a

handshake. Your nervous system begins to

shift. You now associate with the

sergeant comfort, but that's not

kindness, that's conditioning. Watch

what she does next.

>> And I appreciate how pleasant you've

been and you know,

>> [snorts]

>> it makes it a lot nicer for me.

>> Is he crying?

>> have to come and talk to somebody and

they're not um

a beast about it, you know.

>> More conditioning. She says, "When you

cooperate, this stays comfortable. When

you engage, I approve. You want this

interaction to avoid conflict and to

stay positive." But that is exactly what

the cop

>> So, this is where I get a bit confused.

I think there's like a bit too much

extrapolation here. So, demonstrating

kindness is on some level like

behavioral conditioning. I don't know

that I quite get the stick that this guy

is talking about here. That that like

things are about to turn. I think she's

just expressing appreciation. It's

absolutely a rapport building, but I

just call it expressing appreciation.

>> They don't want you guarded. They

certainly don't want you silent. And

they never want you asking for a lawyer.

But they do want you to be comfortable

because comfortable people talk.

Suddenly you feel like you have to fill

the silence. You start clarifying things

they didn't ask you to clarify. From

here they only tighten the noose.

>> But even if you resist all of these

tricks, you'd be amazed at how effective

it is when cops start dripping evidence

on you and demanding something back. For

hours Sergeant Terpstra slowly reveals

evidence. Just pieces. A hat, gloves,

fingerprints.

>> This is a ball cap.

>> Mhm.

>> Have you ever seen that before?

>> Maybe.

>> Tell me about it.

>> I don't know.

>> I mean, do you own that hat?

>> It's a ball cap.

>> Yeah, it is a ball cap.

>> What's really interesting about this is

how unsatisfied she is with his answers.

Man, this feels like how to resist

manipulation 101. Number one way that

people manipulate you is by asking you

questions over and over and over again

that you have already answered. Do you

want to go on a date? No.

Why not?

No is a complete answer. I don't know is

a complete answer. You don't need to say

anything else after that, right? And if

people are manipulating you, what

they'll do is they'll keep asking

questions until they find a [ __ ] in the

armor and then they'll widen the crack.

So he's already said, I don't know. He

doesn't have to defend himself. He

doesn't have to provide her with an

explanation.

>> thing she can anchor on camera and look

back and say, "Look, that's the look of

a guilty man." Because think about it,

if she just dropped all the evidence on

the table at one time and he reacted,

she wouldn't know what he was reacting

to and what he was flinching about.

>> Let's understand conditioning, okay? So

conditioning is something that is a

behavioral thing that is done over time.

Conditioning is is things like you know,

like Pavlov's dogs is the classical

conditioning argument where over a long

period of time, we are training a dog to

when the bell rings, the dog starts to

salivate. So, conditioning is is

actually about learning and

reinforcement. Usually does not happen

over a very short window of time. It's

something that happens over a longer

window of time. And this is kind of a

random joke, but one of my mentors is a

very skilled psychiatrist once told me

that psychoanalysis is something that

very intelligent psychiatrists developed

to help people who with really boring

problems. So, boring stuff is not

exciting to think about. So, we develop

all these complex theories. The simple

thing that I see in all of these clips

is wearing people down, wearing people

down, wearing people down. This isn't

conditioning, this is exhaustion. I want

you guys to think about the worst

layover that you've ever had where

you're sitting at the airport and then

the plane gets delayed 2 hours and then

it gets delayed 4 hours and then it gets

delayed 8 hours and then you're like

you're you board the plane and then you

get off the plane. Think about your

mental state. How fried you would be.

And remember, their goal here their this

this other interrogation that we saw

lasted 17 hours. Can you imagine being

hammered for 17 hours? How would your

mind be functioning? This isn't

conditioning. You're not learning

anything. There's no permanent learning

here. This is just wearing you down

until your brain starts misfiring. And

then you misspeak a little bit here, you

get a little bit emotional over there.

And the really scary thing about this is

that what I see from these interrogation

tactics is they get to throw as many

darts as they want. And what they're

looking for is one that hits. This is

like the opposite of gambling. In

gambling, every pull of the slot

machine, you lose something, it costs

you something. But every time one of

these cops ask question, they don't lose

anything. They just get to throw as many

as they want and once one hits, right?

You get as many pulls of the slot

machine as you want. You just need one

to hit, and that's what's going to be

what puts you away.

>> Yeah, what time of day was that do you

think?

>> Midday.

>> You said she called you supposed called

yourself?

>> Before before noon.

>> Very detailed rant.

>> just one morning and I decided to stop

in and

>> This guy does think that he can offer a

story that will work to accomplish

whatever he thinks it's going to

accomplish.

>> Walking down the road and he was mowing

his lawn around here somewhere.

And we walked in and we're talking and

I met his dog.

>> I walked over to pet his dog.

>> So, all these details, these details

wreak of something called confabulation,

which is something that we see in people

who are like pathological liars, where

people with pathological liars will

offer lots and lots and lots of details

that are just made up. I don't know if

that's the case with him or not, but

it's really interesting. It maps onto

that. Because details are what makes a

story true. So, the more details I

offer, the more believable my story is.

>> I don't know. He's got chairs here.

We sat down here. It was a hot day. We

came back outside.

>> So, the other thing is most memories

don't work like this, right? We don't

remember all these details most of the

time. This level of resolution is

usually not the way our memory works.

Like I want y'all to just think about

the last time you went to someone's

house. Do you remember what the

temperature was? Do you remember where

you walked? Do you remember you had a

cold beer? Do you remember you walked up

and you did this and you did this? Like

you don't actually have all those

memories. Memories of details only

happen when something is emotionally

significant.

>> I do have a bicycle. I do know this

much.

>> Okay.

>> And I've

>> Is it a 10-speed with the handlebars

from that era?

>> No.

>> Okay, what type of bike is it?

>> It's uh

>> [sighs]

>> eight by three I mean four speed.

>> Okay. So, you said you had a bike,

right? Okay, tell me what kind of bike.

I appreciate you being honest.

>> Well, cuz it just

>> [laughter]

>> Oh, oh, I want you I appreciate you

being honest. And look at how frustrated

he is.

>> I don't get how many look at I

appreciate you being honest.

>> Well, cuz it just

>> You guys can catch that tone of voice?

Well, it's just because

So, he's actually emotionally not in a

good place right now. So, his mind is

scrambling if I had to guess. But what

what I see this kind of thing when when

you see a lot of mental activity, but

you you hear that pivot in tone of

voice, that speaks to the his emotions.

It's emotionally active for him. As for

all the stuff about, you know, locking

in contracts, I think memory is like

remarkably unreliable, so I'm not

surprised that people wind up with

contradictions. I think if if I

interrogated you about what happened 3

months ago, we'd find contradictions.

Doesn't mean that you're lying.

>> I don't want to say that.

You were brain dead at the time.

>> I don't know.

>> What type of tobacco or was it what No,

it was still

>> So, so, so this is something I think

that this speaks to me of artificial

relaxation. So, I want you guys to like

notice how open he is. This this really

reeks. I'm trying to figure out what

about this feels artificial, right?

Maybe it's it's the way he's leaning.

Something about this is like artificial.

His facial expression is not relaxed.

His facial expression is concentrated,

but his posture is relaxed. But it's not

really. Like if you look at this, does

this guy truly look relaxed to you? I

think there's something about the

squaring of the shoulders maybe, maybe

he's leaning against something, I'm not

sure what. What this is giving for me is

someone who has artificially decided to

show authentic emotion. And let's see if

that tracks for y'all. Look at this.

>> I told you it was white. Did that screw

you up?

>> Yeah, I don't know.

>> Right? So, he's trying to be honest.

He's like, "Okay, I have to be Yeah,

this is honest but obfuscating. Honest

sneakiness. Right? There's no way that

he can't say no. So, he's displaying a

lot of emotion. He's displaying

authenticity.

>> You said you didn't say you never met

the little boy.

>> Never met the little boy either.

>> Did he want you to meet the little boy?

>> Yeah, so look at his face. So, look at

his breathing pattern. Breathing is

deep, right? And then like look at his

face. He's like there no animation in

it. It's locked. That's what it is. So

when someone is truly relaxed, there's

going to be variability in their

movement. That's what it is. This is a

locked posture. So if you think about

like if I'm relaxed and I'm chatting

with you like I'm going to move my

hands. I'm going to go like this. I'm

going to go like this. My face is going

to do this. I'm going to smile. I'm

going to do this. There's going to be

variability, right? I'm loose. I'm going

to be moving. He's really locked in.

>> Stops. Tears rolled down his cheeks. The

first real crack in his composed facade.

The weight of the interrogation was

clearly taking its toll.

>> Once again, wearing people down. That's

the number one technique here.

>> Did you bring your coffee?

When he gets back in here, I'll go get

you one, all right? Do you want Do you

actually want coffee though?

>> Yes.

>> Okay, I'll get you one in a minute.

>> Now he's saying sir. Interesting.

>> back in here.

Where would you like to start?

>> Oh, this is so interesting, okay? So

before he was squarely but open. Now

he's defended but surrendered. The

game's over. GG'd out. Where would you

like to start, sir?

>> Things were going good at first.

Things were going fine the whole time.

>> Uh-huh.

>> Until

>> It happened.

>> It happened.

>> Okay.

>> Sugar and ice?

Cream?

Just cream?

>> I like this a lot. This is really

interesting. One way that you can make

something I don't know even know how to

explain this seem normal is to interrupt

it, right? So there's a really

interesting thing which is like if

someone is like confessing and you're

like oh hey like let me do this little

minor thing. Like let me interrupt you

and then we'll kind of go back to it.

Makes it seem like there's no climax to

the story, which is which is a really

interesting kind of like thing that they

consistently do. Is if he's like if

people are confessing or talking or

whatever, they're they're happy to

interrupt them. They're almost like

signaling subconsciously that okay like

this is just business as usual and we

can just like oh what what page were we

on? We were on page 62. Like let's pick

it up on page 63. There there there's a

lot of really neutral affect. It's not

that big of a deal. They're not adding

emotional weight. This is the exact

opposite of what you see in like crime

shows, right? Where it's like oh like do

do you do you

do you want the truth? You can't handle

the truth.

It's the exact opposite. It's like oh

like you want cream and sugar in your

coffee?

>> When did it turn from everything going

all fine to not so much?

>> That's a good question. When questions

are good when you're talking to people.

>> something to you? Did he

>> I

>> That that that was not good. So that's a

close-ended question, right? Did he say

something to you? So yes or no? See

you give him a no. If you want people to

talk, don't give them yes or no

questions. Like this is a really useful

question that I use a lot. You know, if

someone's like oh I'm I'm depressed. I'm

really depressed. How long you've been

I've been depressed my whole life. When

was the last time that you felt good?

And then you ask what was going on at

that time? And then what changed? So

when questions are really good to help

people discover transitions. If you're

trying to figure out what direction you

want to go in, ask yourself when was the

last time you felt that way and what

happened after that? Because that is

going to be the moment that there was

the fork in the road of your life.

>> What happened?

>> What happened?

>> what happened.

>> I'd like to hear it from you. I have

theories, but I'd like to

>> So this is actually really good, right?

So he's like he this is playful. He's

like grinning. He's like hey man,

we both know what happened, but I'd like

to hear it from you, bro. He already

knows, right? There's like connection

here. This is good.

>> I'd like to hear your side of the thing.

I know what happened. I want to see if

>> He even admits it.

>> So I can tell you what happened.

I killed him.

>> You killed Jeff.

And how did you do that?

>> With a knife.

>> Okay. And where did you get the knife?

>> It was mine.

>> Could there was a bayonet type knife?

>> Large.

>> Large knife. And that's the one you keep

sharpening all the time.

Right? That was your That you brought

that with you cuz you always wear it.

>> I didn't know you knew that much. Yeah.

>> What do you all think is the

significance of I I didn't know you knew

that much? What is the point of

admitting his ignorance? This is him

actually like bowing down and admitting

that he has been outsmarted by the cops.

So, this is an interesting psychological

thing, right? When when someone Does

that kind of make sense? It's like early

on he's like, "I'm going to outsmart

you." And this is basically him saying,

"You've outsmarted me." Which is kind of

what I read from it.

>> How many times did you stab him, do you

think?

>> Those are questions I don't know the

answer to.

>> Are you saying one or 100? I mean, the

>> Multiple.

>> Multiple times?

>> Okay.

>> Obviously more than one.

I didn't want it to be a prolonged

thing, though. I wanted it to be as

quick as possible. And unfortunately,

I mean, wasn't long, but it's not like

television.

>> It's

>> different from what you expect.

>> Yeah, so what's so interesting here is

now he's like slipping into the role of

almost expert. Like this seems really

relaxed to me.

>> And I'm not even much of a TV watcher.

And obviously, I

have enough intellect to know that it

wouldn't be like television.

>> That was really interesting, right? And

then he's like, "I have enough intellect

to know, Russ." But anyway, I mean, this

is this feels interesting, but also I

don't know. I mean, I it really makes me

feel for a lot of these people. Like,

you know, we look at these things and

they're and they're so villainized. And

and I think people should absolutely pay

for what they've done. And also having

worked with this population like

it makes me wonder, you know, what was

this what was this person's history

like? I'm not getting any sense of like

motive or rational motive from this,

which really is kind of scary on the one

hand. It also like sad on the other

because is it is he is Is just wired to

kind of function in this way? Which

doesn't mean that he shouldn't pay for

his his his actions, but really just

tragic to see this kind of thing and

that this is the world that we live in.

>> She could tell stories like no one I've

ever known. They were so convincing. You

would ask her a question and she would

just be so fluid in her answers. And of

course she's describing something that

was taking place in Germany. So it's not

something that we could go and check on

the next day. And she led us on for

about a year. The only thing that we can

do to protect ourselves from deception

is what is being said and what is the

proof. You begin to make an inquiry, the

story begins to fall apart or it causes

a cognitive load. You know, oh so you

you went to to Mexico. Which airport did

you land at?

Um I you know, and then they struggle to

come out with with an answer. Simple

questions should evoke simple answers.

And when they create a cognitive load

>> Okay, so so this is where like this may

be a virtue of the populations that we

deal with, right? So simple questions

should evoke simple answers, completely

agree. But very few human beings have

detailed memories about simple things

from time a long time ago. So I don't

know what frame of time he's talking

about, but it's like if you asked me

like what airport did I fly into a year

ago, my answer isn't going to be that I

remember the airport. My answer is going

to be I remember which airport people

fly into. So if you ask me like you

know, which airport did you fly into in

Tokyo? I'm going to say Narita because I

forgot that Haneda exists, even if I

flew into Haneda. So this is where

there's some stuff that I think is is

kind of weird about this. The other

thing is in terms of detecting

deception, respectfully I think this

could also be the the populations that

we've got in in the evidence that we've

got. But in psychiatry, we don't have

any evidence. We function without

evidence. So, there's a lot of ways that

you can detect deception. Here's like

top three. First is incongruent affect.

So, when once when someone is talking

about something that does not match

their facial expressions. So, they're

talking about something really bad

happening to them and they're smiling

about it or they're, you know, talking

about something really good happening to

them, but they have a really neutral

affect. It doesn't necessarily indicate

deception. It indicates a discrepancy

and deception is one of the

possibilities in that discrepancy. The

other thing is is kind of like

incongruent uh like internally

inconsistent incongruent affect. So,

this is where things get complicated,

but basically we kind of have this like

[ __ ] meter, which I've shared with

y'all before that it's like, "Okay, this

person is trying too hard." So, you

know, it doesn't feel natural or they're

trying really hard to convince you of

something. Another sign of deception is

actually like explaining yourself in a

superfluous way. So, Shakespeare noticed

this many years ago when he said, "Me

doth think that they protest protesteth

too much." or something like that. So,

when someone verbally explains or

defends themselves, that's a sign that's

a potential sign of deception, okay? The

last thing the last really interesting

version of deception is actually

projection. So, people who are cheating

in a relationship are more likely to

accuse their partner of cheating. I

don't know if that's like evidence-based

or not, but we absolutely have all of

these like psychological mechanisms and

projection is one of them. When I'm

suppressing something from myself and

literally what projection means is I

have something inside me that I am

avoiding in some way either

intentionally or unintentionally that

then I put on top of you. So, I'm the

cheater, but I accuse you of cheating.

So, I think there's a lot of techniques

that we have to detect deception or

tools. The key thing to remember is that

none of these are one-to-one. They're

not definitive for deception. They are

definitive for a discrepancy, and

deception could be one explanation in

that discrepancy. If you all like some

of the stuff about how to become

resistant to manipulation, how to pay

attention to facial expressions, what to

say, what not to say, definitely check

out communication 101 over on the

membership side. This is my

psychiatrist's

take on the foundational principles to

become an effective communicator. You

all can check out the link in the

description below, start your free

trial, and hopefully you'll become a

better communicator.