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[music]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Carara Swisser. Scott is

off again. Who knows where he is? He's

floating around on some yacht in some

Italian area, I think. Uh, and but I

have brought in someone who is much

smarter than him. Matt Bellan,

journalist, founding partner of Puck and

host of the Town Podcast. Welcome, Matt.

>> Thanks for having me. I don't know about

that comparison to Scott, but I'll take

it.

>> No, he's really smart. But in the topics

that we're going to be talking about,

and there's so many of them, you are you

just do an amazing job and an amazing

reporter on Hollywood and and and

broader. You talk about AI and manner

all manner of things. And I just want to

put a also a shout out to Eric Gardner

who writes with you sometimes on the

legal stuff. Riveting.

>> He's great. Yeah. Once a week at Buck.

He's great.

>> I got to tell you important actually.

It's stuff I didn't know about and I you

know you understand how especially

around copyright and things like that.

Anyway, it's really good. I've been

having a one of the things reason I want

to have you on because um you you really

have written some of the smartest stuff

around a lot of these mergers we and

more to come and so I want to sort of

get a preview of where you think are

going but I want to you recently I want

to bring something up. You recently said

can Lions is a quote tacky business

conference. How'd that go over?

>> Uh okay

>> tacky tacky I would the wine is lovely

but it's

>> well I did say enjoy the rosé. So

listen, I did an intro my newsletter a

couple weeks ago during Can Lion, which

I called it a soulless corporate

boondoggle and that I would not be

attending that year. Uh it seemed to

have triggered everybody who was there

because I kept hearing from people that

it was coming up at different panels.

Ben Smith asked um Alex Cooper about it

on his panel. And listen, I I think it

was a little misunderstood. I don't mind

a boondoggle. Like I love a good

boondoggle. The problem with Can Lion is

that they call it a festival of

creativity.

>> You're right. Correct. Yes.

>> And it is not it is it is about

platforms for selling advertising.

>> That's correct. That is correct. Yeah.

>> I you know through my career covering

entertainment I go to the can film

festival which happens a month earlier.

That to me is can because yes it's a

market but it's ultimately about the art

and displaying the art and you know even

like my joke is that can lion makes the

TV upfronts look like the Oscars

[laughter]

>> because at least at the upfronts they're

talking about the the the product the

shows the movies it's all about the

talent it's all that is not can line

it's

>> swinging ads is how I look at it the

>> it's about ads and it's about AI

empowered

engagement technology and just all of

that that stuff, which is fine.

Acknowledge it, but don't like these ad

executives get up there on on their

podiums and talk about storytelling and

the creativity.

>> Storytelling is back in case you're

interested.

>> It's all about story. Rita Pharaoh at

Disney, the ads the ads uh chief was all

about, you know, we empower storytellers

and I'm just like, stop. You're selling

>> pay for storytellers with the ads.

>> Yeah. Whatever. It's just the whole

thing. The whole thing to me is gross.

And you know, it doesn't mean it won't

go in the future. I like a good glass of

rosé.

>> Well, I have to say when you It's good

for it. Everyone's like, "Why do you

keep going?" I'm like, "It's really good

for my business. I get a lot of ads

there." Like I get a lot of business,

you know, you're sort of like you're

sort of prancing for the for the for the

advertisers essentially. And

>> yeah, which is the upfronts are

ultimately about that as well, but

they're also about the creativity of the

people who make the content. And I don't

think, you know, when when Alex Cooper

goes there, she's not talking about, you

know, the nuances of what what goes into

her show. She's talking about who she

reaches,

>> how it's a big audience, and why you

should buy ads with her.

>> That's correct. Yes, [laughter] she's

prancing. Prancing, you know,

>> and I think what it what it tapped into

is this. You know, there is a changing

of the guard going on right now. The

creator economy is gigantic. Obviously,

I know that the Can Film Festival has

probably seen better days in terms of

relevance to the larger culture, but

it's still ultimately about the art and

that's what I was saying.

>> Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. We're

slinging ants. That's what we're doing.

That's why I'm there. Also, the Rosa is

excellent and also my kids. I took my

kids and we have a good time.

>> I'm sure. You know what? I love a good

yacht party.

>> Yeah. I I don't go I don't can't go to

those anymore. I got invited to one.

Piers Morgan had one and I was like

there is nothing I would like to not do

more than be on a a a yacht a yacht that

doesn't doesn't go anywhere. They keep

it there. It doesn't like move. It's

>> those are the worst. The ones that are

just parked in the in like the harbor

there. It's like well

>> what's the difference between this yacht

party and going to a podium or like a

little like uh you know beach setup?

There's no difference. It's just you're

floating.

>> Yep. Absolutely. Anyway, we've got a lot

to talk to today. Um uh but first I want

to begin with I think a pretty big

story. Lawyers for several states are

finalizing an antitrust lawsuit

challenging Paramounts acquisition of

Warner Brothers. It is going to be

filed. I know a lot about this. They

have been in touch.

>> It's politically untenable to not file.

>> Correct. That's correct. The suit could

let me just put it out. Sue could

interfere with Paramount's plan to

complete the deal in the coming weeks.

The DOJ cleared the acquisition rather

quickly last month. Talk about uh this

the lawsuit. Obviously, it's Rob Bont

from California, but there are other

states. There's several states involved.

Um, and and of course there's the the

ongoing British uh the the person who's

head of essentially competition in

Britain is saying she's she's sort of

adjacent curious of slowing this thing

down at the very least. Uh which was

unusual for her to say. Several British

people are like, uh, that's not great

for them. Uh, it could be a leverage

thing. Talk about the the entire thing

and where you see it going. It's an

interesting one because first of all,

the antirust case here is not as strong

as some other ones recently that liation

etc. like this one you know Paramount

and Warers are not leaders in the

industry and they're battling these big

tech players like Netflix, Amazon,

Apple. So, it's it's you know, when they

say this merger is pro competition, it's

sort of their buzzword they always say

in their press releases. Like, they're

not totally wrong. If this works and

they can create a legitimate competitor

to a Netflix, to an Amazon, like that

that is pro competition. Now, obviously,

the wreckage within Hollywood to do this

is going to be thousands of jobs lost

and a legacy studio vanishing. And

that's what's got gotten everybody up in

arms. The the the state action I it's

going to be tough, but they need to

clear a injunction to actually stop

this. They need to go to a court and a

court needs to say, "Okay, not only do

you have a likelihood of winning here,

I'm going to enjoin this merger from

closing." That's the real leverage. If

they can get that, then they're going to

be in a best position to extract

significant concessions because I think

that's what this is happening behind the

scenes. Obviously, Megan Del Raheem, who

is their general counsel, is in the

middle of this. He's been in the middle

of the British thing. They're fighting

it on two fronts. And I think the

British group essentially just wants

stuff like promises around the

>> States want stuff, too.

>> Yes, they do want stuff. So, explain

what first start with the British there.

Just for people to know, there's a big

Harry Potter studio out there. There may

be some people visiting it, the tourism

stuff. They want job, some children's

programming stuff. Explain what they

want in Britain versus the US.

>> Yeah. So, first of all, there's there's

varying reports as to what they actually

want because they haven't actually said

the the children's programming thing

doesn't seem to be that big of a

problem. Paramount has a joint venture

in the UK to distribute movies and it's

with Comcast with NBC Universal for the

Universal movies and there's a scenario

where they exit that. Now they may

actually want to do that on their own

because the Ellison's may want to just

not have a partner there but that's one

area where they are they are together

with a competitor that they may have to

divest there. There's also some

television interest there that they

have. The the the real goal

is to get them to concede to certain

things and if it's a divestment of

certain television interests, if it's a

an exit from this joint venture, that's

something where they can claim victory

and then they can move on.

>> Job retention.

>> Uh well, I don't know actually that has

been the the something that the European

regulators have gone gone after in the

past. Mhm.

>> So that could be now I think that is

something that is going to be much more

relevant for the state cases. Rob Bont

in California, he's interested in

preserving jobs and getting a commitment

from the Ellison's to continue to

operate Warner Brothers and Paramount

separately.

You know, David Ellison has committed to

releasing 30 movies per year from the

two studios in theaters, 15 a year,

which is a pretty robust slate,

>> right? Committed. He has no he doesn't

have to.

>> No, that's that's my point is that maybe

they get that in writing,

>> right?

>> Maybe Okay.

>> There is some kind of commitment to do

that for 10 years in writing. Maybe

there's a commitment to uh avoid, you

know, the sweeping job losses at the

different studios. So, they're they're

looking here. They're the strategy is to

try to use the lawsuit and the threat of

a delay here because remember $650

million per quarter Paramount has to pay

to warn a discovery in a ticking fee

after October 1st. So if this drags on,

it gets more and more expensive for them

and they're trying to use that leverage

to get stuff. Um, I believe that

ultimately a cons a consolidation or a

concession here might be that they would

try to get them to sell CNN because

obviously this is a political concern.

That is not an antirust concern and Bont

has kind of punted on that. But I know

that in the attorney general's circle

that is something they have discussed as

a group.

>> They have I would agree with you. I

would agree that

>> the problem is that's not really an

antirust remedy,

>> right? How can you make someone do that?

I mean, a part of me is like, good idea.

The second is like, can you really make

someone do sell you don't want to sell,

right?

>> And the CNN business, while still

robust, hundreds of millions of dollars

a year in profits, that's not the basis

of this merger.

>> No, the linear networks are not.

>> No, but it's a sticking point. It's a

stick. It's a

>> It's political. And this has become a

political issue. Now, the Ellison's made

it political by jumping into bed with

the Trump administration so much, but

now you have Elizabeth Warren, you have

Lena Khan, you have all the antitrust

people that are putting pressure on

other Democrats like Rob Bont who wants

to have a future in Democratic politics.

And he needs to do something here and

get some kind of concession or trophy

that he can go back to the Democrats and

say, "We let this merger go through, but

we got XYZ." So what what do you think

he can get that? Do you think the

Ellison's would would discourage that

for example?

What else could he get? What else what

would be as important?

>> I know there is a document that resides

at Paramount that has all the things

that they are willing to concede

and it's just a question of how far down

the menu they will go and what they

actually ask for. I don't know if

they're going to agree to preserve jobs

specifically. I mean, if you look at

this company, they have$80 billion in

debt. They're

>> There's no other way. No other way. No

other way. Yeah. The entire transaction

is premised on significant synergies.

So, if you all of a sudden agree not to

fire people and then you do this deal

and you're stuck with all this cost and

you're trying to appease your lenders

and your Middle East backers, like that

puts you in a really tough spot.

>> It does. And many people off the record

who, you know, sort of performerly say,

"Yeah, great idea of a new strong studio

like the money." Like, good luck. Like

every smart person I know is like I

recall having a meeting with David

Zazoff when I said they're not going to

be able to do anything because the costs

are too high and they have to cut too

much and their debt is too high. I just

said I was just a math person so doesn't

look like they can grow easily. And he

called me and said we we should have

drinks and talk about this and I was

like I'm sorry I'm a math person. It

just doesn't work and you have to cut.

There's no growth for you anywhere. Um,

and

>> well, they [clears throat] premised that

merger on a revenue number that never

materialized.

>> Correct. And

>> they put it out there that the TV group

would generate a significant amount of

profit every year. Um, and it just kept

going down and down and down to the

point where almost immediately they had

to revise their aspirations and the

whole thing fell apart.

>> That's right. And I was like, I'm sorry.

I don't know. Are you a magician? Are

you going to start selling drugs? Like I

was like, what? Explain to me where the

money is coming. And this here it's

quantumly. except that they're rich. And

even if you're rich,

>> wild card here,

>> e even if you're rich, you're I wouldn't

say's cheap, but Larry Ellison is cheap,

right? Like ultimately, do you want to

throw this money at your son, right?

Essentially, do you want to give him

someone who has a questionable like

record of moneymaking, right? Not an

enormous money like Sky Dance was not a

big money maker. Um, and so that's the

question is how rich are you and how

much to me speaking of yachts it's like

a big leaky yacht. I was like how much

you want to put on the yacht? Like how

much do you want to

>> We have precedent here. Remember Larry

Ellison funded Anna Pererna which was

Megan Ellison's film production company

David's sister that was very prolific

for a decade and made a ton of Oscar

winning movies and her by Spike Jones

that was a Megan Ellison production and

then at some point Larry said enough is

enough you've lost so much money I can't

continue to bankroll this and the place

dramatically downsized.

>> Right. Right. And so the question is, is

he that was 10 that was Larry Ellison

many years ago. Is he willing to do this

for his son to me? Larry Ellison is the

is the fulcrum here for everything. It's

like I'm not spending I I don't want to

pay for this muffler. I don't want and

like the question is does he really I

don't think he gives a rat's ass about

CNN in any way.

>> Oh, see I've heard differently. I've

heard that that was the case in in in

the beginning,

>> but that he has come around to the

influence of it and cares very much

about Israel, for instance, and

>> wants to kind of put the media on the

right track and he's been spending time

with President Trump. And I think that

both he and David now are more

interested, not as a business. They know

that news is not a great business, but a

lot of this merger is premised on the

combination of CBS News and CNN and all

the people they can fire at those news

networks to combine their news gathering

operations. And that I think is a reason

why they may not offer to sell CNN as

part of this even though it might be

politically a winner.

>> So, oh, so to finish, what happens then?

What is what can Bont get if he can't

get that? Well, we know that

>> any chance of getting that. You say no

because Larry likes it.

>> Yeah. I don't think he's going to be

able to get it. I think they want it,

but I don't think he's going to be able

to get it. And and it becomes

complicated because of, you know, it's

not a real It opens a lot of doors that

I'm not sure the Democrats even want to

open um because something overtly

political as a concession for a merger.

But I do think they can get uh the the

movie thing, some kind of commitment in

writing. I think that you to release 30

movies a year. I think they can get a

commitment to buy a certain amount of

content or make a certain amount of

content in California, which as you know

is a big deal these days with all the

runaway productions and that will be

something that Bont could get. Um, you

know, I don't know what the specifics of

what the other states might want. You

know, you know, New Jersey is one of the

states considering and they have a big

production hub there. maybe they can get

some commitments to film there. Uh so I

think it's going to be much more about

investment than it is about preventing

the loss of jobs. Although maybe they

could get some commitment for you know

only reducing 10 15% of the workforce

per year for five years something like

that.

>> Yeah. Something. So that's where you

think it's going. I do I think that that

not these states don't have the appetite

for a three two threeyear antirust war

and Paramount certainly doesn't have the

appetite for that. So there will be some

kind of settlement but again the

leverage point comes not from filing the

lawsuit but from getting an injunction

that would prevent this deal from

closing.

>> And if they get an injunction they might

be able to get the other stuff too.

>> Exactly.

>> Because that would be an enormous win

for Bont. That would send him right to

Governor Bill.

>> I don't know about that. He's not even

running this time, but maybe in the

future. But yeah, you met him. He's

running for governor. Just FYI,

>> right? But not this time, but you know,

or eight years if if if Biser wins.

>> Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. We'll

see. But in any case, he's a he's a he's

an upand cominging politician and he's

kind of in a good

>> Listen, if we get president, maybe he

could be attorney general.

>> Yeah, that's right. Well, I don't think

so. Anyway, um let's move on. Disney has

told the FCC uh that ABC uh The View

should continue to qualify as a

bonafideed news program, making exempt

from federal equal time rules for

political candidates. The filing comes

as the FCC has been probing whether The

View violates those equal time rules. A

notable line from the filing, the First

Amendment does not permit the government

to sit in an editor's chair. Yet, that

is the seat the commission now proposes

to take. ABC launched a campaign, a very

aggressive campaign, to encourage

reviewers to make their thoughts known

to the FCC in June. and the commission

received over 76,000 comments about the

case. I, as you know, I think Brendan

Gar is a [ __ ] and he's way way

overstepped here for reasons unknown.

Um,

>> well, reasons unknown.

>> Well, he wants he has he wants a big

political career and he's backing Donald

Trump to love him.

>> Yes, exactly. It's it's pathetic in so

many ways, but um I bet mom Trump

doesn't love him, by the way. Um, so

talk about the con the consequences here

for both sides because I think Brennan

Gar has overstepped especially in his

statements because his statements go way

over the line of any FCC chairman I've

heard in the many years I've covered

them.

>> Yeah, it's interesting here because the

this is all happening with the backdrop

of Trump not necessarily being as

powerful in the media sphere as he was

even a year ago. You know, we're heading

into lame duck status. the polling is

where it is and it's it's not, you know,

I think that Brennan Carr was a little

bit surprised that Disney came back so

aggressively.

>> Yes, he was. Yeah.

>> And and and he's now on Twitter like

trying to counter this this pretty

normal strategy. I mean, when there's

ever a carriage fight amongst

distributors and content providers or

>> Disney's always good at it.

>> Yeah. They they go after their fans.

>> The New York one. I loved watching the

New York one. That was a real fun.

>> And shocker, people who watch The View

are interested in The View having the

freedom to have on any guests that they

want. And if Disney communicates to them

to stand up to the government to keep

your show that you like as your show,

they're going to respond. So I think

this was totally predictable. What's the

most interesting angle to me is through

the lens of the new CEO of Disney, Josh

Dear.

>> Yes, exactly.

>> He is being aggressive here and he's

pushing back on this one. He's pushing

back on the dumb Kimmel thing, Jimmy

Kimmel thing where they claim that, you

know, they're going after Disney because

of their DEI policies, but we all know

they were trying to put fear and censor

Jimmy Kimmel and Disney's really

fighting back on that. And and I don't

know that Bob Iger, the previous CEO,

would have been as aggressive on this.

>> I think he wanted to be. I think he felt

like he was that the the way Jimmy

Kimmel went down wasn't exactly what

happened. Like I think he was he w he

had been supportive, but the way it went

down because he didn't say anything. He

didn't call reporters. He didn't, you

know, he didn't really handle that very

well.

>> Well, I did an interview with the FT a

couple weeks ago and he said that he

didn't like Kimmel's comments about

Charlie [clears throat] Kirk and wanted

him to apologize, which he had never

said before.

>> Yes. But I think he also felt that he

had supported Kimmel over the many

years, you know what I mean? And that

that his that, you know, I think he was

surprised by the pileon on him. Um, and

I, you know, I just I said to him, well,

why were you surprised? Like people like

Jimmy Kimmel, it seemed ridiculous what

Carr was doing. Like it doesn't I think

he felt like he had a long career and

should have people should have given him

a little more credit over the time. But

talk about why Josh is doing this. So I

think it's really interesting to be one

of your early moves.

>> He's a different person and he has a

different view on this and I think that

the people advising him are telling him

that they are in the right here. I mean

you mentioned Eric Gardner. He did a

whole analysis of this for Buck. Disney

has the upper hand here, right?

>> And I think Brendan Carr knows it.

They're just trying to be bullies

>> and Disney is a really big popular

corporation that people have an

emotional connection to. So, I think

that he's playing his hand here and they

know that they ultimately if this did

get litigated, they would come out on

top. So, why not be more aggressive?

>> Well, you know, it is interesting the

push back I find I I think it's the

timing is correct because one of the

things when I was arguing with them

during the Kimmel times, a lot of the

Disney executives, I was like, he's

going down. Trump is popularity is only

headed one direction at this point. I

was like, you all can look like heroes

at this moment by just stick, you know,

given the whole thing that happened with

Stephanopoulos and everything else,

which is I I suspect there was probably

more problems there to litigate that. In

this case, it's a clean shot against an

oath like who's who's [clears throat]

attached to a very increasingly

unpopular president. I was like, I don't

know. And people love the view. Like

they do the fans fans love it.

>> And here's the thing. When Iger came

back to Disney in 2022,

one of his big priorities was to

depoliticize the brand. The previous

CEO, Bob Chapeek, had gotten into this

big fight in Florida with Ronda Santis.

You had Republicans saying, you know,

boycott Disney. And that's

[clears throat]

outside of Disney. I know that was

troubling to the executives. You know,

they were marching in front of white

supremacists. If you recall, people

don't remember this.

>> Disney is an everybody brand. And Josh

Dearo is a is a brand guy. So I I

understand why they wouldn't want to get

into a fight with a Republican

president. And if you noticed last week,

no other network went harder on the

anniversary of America than Disney ABC.

They literally did 24 hours of

programming.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And they got 40 million viewers out of

it. But my point is like they're trying

Disney is trying to wa walk both sides

here publicly be be very kind of pro

America and pro pro- every political

party but while also now standing up for

itself which it did not do in the

Stephanopoulos matter

>> right and it will succeed here I feel

Ben car is a paper tiger

>> oh I think they will absolutely succeed

I don't know they'll back down

completely but this will eventually go

away

>> and then they will get the news the news

uh out. Correct.

>> Yes. The news you mean the news

exemption or the equal time exemption?

Yeah. I think Disney will win on that.

>> Yeah. It's clearly an interview show.

It's so It's kind of ridiculous on so

many levels.

>> Yeah. The annoying thing is that they've

kind of been chilling themselves during

this whole process and not having

political guests on as much.

>> Well, they had Vance on recently, you

know, the show they did. They had Vance

on, but yeah, you're right. I think they

definitely have, but you know, they do

better with like, you know, the guy from

um just, you know, the handsome guy, you

know, that's what they do better with

honestly.

>> I'm gonna take your word on the

programming of the view. I'm not a

regular viewer.

>> Oh, it's I I was just a guest host on it

for two days and I hit a ball. It's so

much fun and such a great audience. And

one of the things that I you know,

there's a lot of declines in watching,

but it's a really well done show. It's

really it exactly meets its audience and

it's clever and interesting and oddly

you know in a lot of these when you're

on cable shows as you know they're

they're lacking of substance it feels

substantive actually it's actually a

good talk and so I think that's why it

works

>> Barbara Walters genius was on to

something

>> genius my legend if I had to pick anyone

who was one of the finest interviews in

the land it would be Barbara Walters but

also

>> she does not get enough credit for

conceiving that show

>> yeah I agree she I agree and also by the

way Whoopy Goldberg runs that thing like

a she's a she's really good at her job.

That's all.

>> She really is and really creates a

really interesting environment that is

unexpected. Anyway, I like being on it.

I enjoy it and I hope for the best for

them because they really uh they really

produce a great show and good for Josh

Dear for this being one of his first

things because he's going to win anyway.

Okay, Matt, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, Netflix sophomore

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Matt, we're back. Netflix is getting

into the short form content business.

The the company announced this week it's

partnered with BuzzFeed, cond people,

and various Penske media brands to bring

the digital videos to the platform.

These videos will range from

three-minute shorts to 20-minute

episodes focusing on travel, cooking,

fashion, as well as celebrity content

profiles and viral content. All these

people have been making these extra what

I call shoulder content that you see.

>> Oh, I used to do it when I ran Holly

Deorter. We had to do the video version.

>> The video version Nas does actually a

pretty good job. They all do a pretty

good job at it. This announcement comes

in the wake of a new report that Netflix

is struggling to retain fans between the

first and second seasons of top shows

with some shows shedding 50% of their

audience. Engagement is slowing too. The

amount of time customers spent watching

Netflix last year grew by less than 2%.

Um, talk about why they're doing this.

And just for people, I last yesterday

went on Brian Williams new show which is

they're also they've also bought a bunch

of podcasters. I think the one that's

doing really well is The Breakfast Club.

>> That's the one they're talking about.

But we'll know next week when their

engagement report comes out for the

first half of the year.

>> Yeah. But I don't think they're high. I

don't I feel like

>> I have heard internally the numbers are

not high, but it's early days and that's

what they're saying. They're encouraged

by this the trends.

>> Yeah. But the Breakfast Club from what I

understand is a real standout. That's

what I heard from them. So um uh talk

about this whole thing and include what

it's not really podcasting. They're t it

was a TV show that I it was an

interview. It was like you know Charlie

Rose with 100% less creepy. It was just

I don't know. You know what I And it was

like that's what that's what the set

looked like.

>> They're calling them video podcasts. I

mean, there's a a distinction there. I

think the guilds would love for them to

call them talk shows cuz they have to

pay more for them. But

>> fine, it was a talk show.

>> This is all just about Netflix having

YouTube envy. They they look at the

engagement report every month from

Neielson. They are getting their butts

kicked by YouTube. they know why, you

know, so much of the viewing on YouTube

is this lower quality, um, you know,

usergenerated.

It's just it's it's it's it's a

different product than Netflix. It's

free. Netflix is not free. and they're

saying, "How can we boost our engagement

numbers without going fullon user

generated and becoming YouTube,

>> but having enough on the platform where

people start to consider it you the

everyday you just go there to watch

video?"

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's tough.

>> It's sad to me.

>> I agree

>> that Netflix has such a great thing

going. They're just so it's so in their

head that they've got to match YouTube

because they see this trajectory.

>> Should be never YouTube will eat

everything

>> and then ultimately they'll wake up in 5

years and they will have to put shows on

YouTube because it's so big and so

dominant,

>> right? That is probably true

>> because ads I mean everybody's been

talking about the Netflix stock being

down 40% from last year and part of that

is because they went after Warner

Brothers and all the investors are like

whoa wait a second you guys thought you

needed a big studio to compete here I

thought you were the darling of media

but what it really is I think now is

investors are looking for the growth

narrative from Netflix. How are they

going to continue to grow and internally

they see the ads platform as being a

growth engine?

>> It is it's been rather long.

>> It is because it's not huge. I mean

Netflix I mean Amazon turned on ads for

all Prime Video viewers and it instantly

became a gigantic ads business. Netflix

did not do that. It's an optin. You get

to pay less money to get ads.

>> It's it's it's actually more attractive

across the globe from what I understand.

>> Yeah. people like free or less money and

they're willing to tolerate ads,

>> but they need the inventory. They need

people on it because they're coming from

this position of so many of their

subscribers are non ads customers that

even though they're growing the ads tier

and they're adding a bunch, you know,

the percentage of new customers that

sign up, most of them do so with for the

ad tier, they want inventory. And the

best way to do it is this lower quality,

lower cost, uh, you know, in in a a

sports term, a baseball, you know, a

middle reliever, someone that just eats

up innings.

And that's what these podcasts are.

They're looking, you know, Netflix is

also the evening streamer. People watch

at night and YouTube is the daytime

streamer. People watch at work or at

home while they're doing laundry or

whatever. And they want to compete for

those daytime eyeballs. Which of those

businesses, what do you think of these

three? I don't I think the three minute

shorts are fine. I just don't get it. I

don't know why. One of the things, you

know, also what they picked. It's not

very contro, except for maybe

Charlemagne. It's not very

controversial, right? It's very um you

know, good, but not like wow. It's like

they just signed a cooking show, you

know, yesterday. And it's not uh it's

nothing that's in the top tiers of

podcasters,

which is really interesting. Well, Bill

Simmons is there. Bill's Bill's a big

sports podcaster.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, they have a bunch of

Ringer shows like and I my show,

disclosure, my show is a Ringer show,

but they have like the Rewatchables,

which is a big show, and they have some

bar stool shows and stuff. They're doing

more and I've heard internally they want

to do a lot more. And, you know, they're

testing it out. This is how Netflix

works.

>> They go into an area of content and if

it works, they do a ton more. They

started doing crime documentaries. they

worked and now they do a fire hose of

crime documentaries. They started doing

these choose your own adventure shows

where you could the audience would

choose and it didn't work so they

stopped doing it and that this is how

they operate. Um you know it's just to

me I wish Netflix would be Netflix and

not try to be YouTube but I understand

why they're doing that.

>> Why would if you are a podcaster or

anybody else did to do that? Why do that

if you if you have a good money just the

money they give you? Yeah, listen, some

people like the prestige of being on

Netflix.

>> It's it's a it's definitely a cooler

brand than YouTube where anybody could

be on it.

>> Um, and you know, if Netflix is

successful here, they will change

consumer behavior. Very difficult to do

that. But their their theory here is if

we put enough on here and if we have

some breakout shows, if you're a

Charlemagne fan or whatever, you're

going to go on and then all of a sudden

on your next jog, you don't go to

YouTube for the podcast you normally

listen to. You go to Netflix and that's

how you change consumer behavior.

>> Yeah. Right. Yeah. By the way, just for

people to know, the Netflix has made a

deal for video episodes of Vox Media

podcast, Unexplainable, and Switched on

Pop, uh, which is is they have a very

it's a it's a pretty good ad business,

but they'll do better on Netflix, I

think. So, people are deciding where.

>> Do you think they'll do better on

Netflix for viewership than on YouTube?

>> I think they'll do better on money.

>> On money. Yeah, because that's what

you're sacrificing right now. Yes.

>> You're sacrificing reach on YouTube for

money from Netflix. And then the promise

of maybe down the line the engagement

numbers catch up.

>> Correct. That's right. You know,

something like a pivot like we wouldn't

because we're doing so well on YouTube

and other places. But it's just it's an

interesting ju just position. A lot of

these companies will sort of test out

certain of their products on it. Um

>> I don't think that the engagement on

these videos is going to be very high. I

agree.

>> Especially at the beginning.

>> I agree. I agree.

>> Most of them are lowquality shoulder

like the Penske videos. Most of them are

auto plays that play while you're

reading an article.

>> Yeah, but they're sitting over on

YouTube doing nothing, so it's fine.

Exactly. Fine. So, um the the last thing

with Netflix, you know, every all the

investors worried about their deal

making. What is their will their next

deal be NBC Universal? What is what is a

little bit about there? I think I I

think that they are likely to at least

explore this

>> because what we learned from the Warner

Chase is that they feel they they don't

need but they would very much benefit

from strong intellectual property. It's

so difficult to create awareness to

create um you know fandoms on your own

even though you're as large as Netflix

and they've done it successfully many

times. Don't get me wrong, but having

Jurassic per Jurassic Park,

>> having the Minions,

>> the Odyssey,

>> having Well, that's a that's different

because that's a filmmaker relationship.

But you know what? Chris Nolan won't

make movies for Netflix,

>> right?

>> There is a class of filmmaker that will

not make movies for Netflix because they

do not give their product a theatrical

release meaningfully. So they would get

into that business and if it's like what

they said with Warers, they would keep

the theatrical business running at least

at first on its own. So I think that

they will at least look I don't know if

they'll make a formal bid. There's a

complicating factor because NBC is

involved and they definitely do not want

to own linear networks. The other aspect

of Netflix that that is important here

is sports. NBC Universal has the second

best collection of sports rights second

to ESPN. do. [clears throat]

>> They've got Sunday Night Football, which

is the highest rated show on television.

They've got Major League Baseball.

They've got golf. They've got um NB a

huge new NBA deal that they just did.

And they have a subscale streamer in the

US, Peacock, which only has 47 million

subscribers. And they've got all of

these sports, right? So, Netflix,

they've got to take a look at this.

>> Yeah. So, what else would they take a

look at? There's smaller ones like

Lionsgate and others, right?

>> I and they've had the opportunity to go

after those in the past and have have

not. Um, it's got to be special. I I I

honestly I don't know.

>> I don't know.

>> Who's another buyer for this? Is it

going to get bought at all? Is who's

another buyer for

>> Well, that gets to the larger question

as to whether NBC Universal is a buyer

or a seller here.

>> Seller, right? Yeah.

>> They maintain that they can 100% go it

alone and they can be a buyer and they

can look at things. The speculation is

about perhaps a video game company like

Take Two. They they did look at

Electronic Arts a number of years ago,

but uh I I think they're either going to

do something now or they're going to

wait for a while. There's tax

implications of doing this spin-off. So,

if it actually happens, I'm skeptical

that it will get to the actual spin-off.

I think Netflix, if they're going to

come in,

>> this is a Warner situation, right? This

is what

>> if if if Netflix is going to come in,

they're going to do it soon,

>> right? soon and they would make a deal

for it. Would they get it? Is there

another buyer?

>> I mean, who knows?

>> Paramount.

>> No. Are you kid? I I I joked about that

on the town. I I don't think they have

the appetite for that right now. And I

think Larry is all tapped out.

>> No, they can't. They can't afford it.

They can't

>> uh you know, only there's only so many

Saudi and uh, you know, Middle East

moneymen that you can go to.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But there's a there's a

bunch of private equity money out there.

Yeah. You know, there's a there's Apple

sitting there. Apple, everybody's been

speculating in Hollywood for years that

Apple would buy a studio. Bob Iger keeps

talking about how he wanted to merge

Disney with Apple back in the day. Uh,

you know, Apple has shown no

inclination. I talked to Eddie Q about

this. He said, "No way." But you know

what? You never know. New there's new

leadership at Apple. Maybe he'll say,

"What are we doing in content? We have

all these great shows, but we have very

little engagement." And engagement comes

from library. Having a hundred years of

movies and television shows to keep your

audience on the platform

>> 100%. And Disney.

>> I don't think so. Do you think that Do

you think Do you think NBC Universal is

going to be the first thing Josh Jamaro

does?

>> I I think it's going to be in the AI or

gaming or something like that. It's not

going to be a traditional merger and and

they would have to sell one of the

broadcast networks or get the rules

changed.

>> Yeah. Or or sell them both. Sell them

both off or have them

>> I don't think they'd sell them both. I

mean, they they've had that opportunity.

They've double triple down on keeping

that stuff. They are,

>> you know, integrating [clears throat] it

all. And

>> the broadcast TV business is still a

business. Cable is not,

>> but

>> broadcast still is.

>> Yep. It absolutely is. Anyway, um really

interesting. Next up, we have a lot to

get to. Meta has released an AI image

generator called Muse image, which the

company's calling the creative partner

that knows your world. I can't I can't

believe these people write these things.

The generator comes uh with a feature

lets users create AI images based on

people's Instagram photos and any adult

with a public Instagram account was

automatically opted in. Cara Swisser is

opted out now, just so you know.

>> You know, I saw your post on threads and

I tried to do that last night and I

couldn't find the button to do that.

>> I will show you. I will send you a step

by step. Uh the company also previewed

an AI video generator which will be

coming available in the next month. Uh

what is these people? Are they just

constant information thieves? They just

continually

>> do this.

>> Listen, it's a uh ask forgiveness not

permission strategy. [clears throat]

It's been the case from the very

beginning in Silicon Valley and it takes

the Hollywood people to step up. The

talent agency CIA put out a pretty good

statement last night. No one, they said

no one's image, name, and likeness,

voice, or creative work should be used

by a third party, including AI models

without clear documented consent.

They're telling them essentially what

the industry said about Sora when Open

AI launched it. It's like, don't make

this opt out, make it opt in,

>> right? Exactly. They hate optin.

>> I know. Because nobody does.

>> They hated optin since AOL. They hate

optin. They hate it.

>> I get it. Listen, it's a much it's a

much less convenient business. You have

to ask permission.

>> That's correct.

>> That's kind of how it works when you

have rights like copyright and name

image likeness rights.

>> They don't care. As Walt Mossberg

famously said, they're rapacious

information thieves. Um and they

continue with that quality.

>> It's not just information though. This

is like, you know, a literally, unless

he opts out, they could take a Tom Cruz

photo that he posts of himself and suck

it into their model and create a video

based on Tom Cruz.

>> That's correct. That is It's like It's

nuts. And of course, Tom Cruz is good

for the platform being on it and putting

all this marketing stuff. It's a It's a

win-win situation for them and Tom Cruz.

And instead, they kick him in the teeth.

>> But they know that they're so big now

that Tom Cruz can't market his movies

without them. That's the problem here.

It's the problem with all of these new

innovations is that Meta looks at it,

says, "Oh, we will just clone this and

use our massive distribution to put that

person out of business or we buy them,

>> right?" Yeah. Yeah. Buy or build. That's

how they That's how they think. Anyway,

I don't think this I don't I don't think

this is a great move and I think they'll

roll it back. That's my feeling. They I

think they know they're on thin ice here

with people.

>> We'll see how the studios react this

next week. You know, they haven't

actually launched the video component

yet.

>> Right. Right. But I you can turn it off.

I recommend everyone turn it off until

we know more. All right. And I'll tell

you how to do it, Matt. Um. All right.

Let's go on a quick break. When we come

back, we'll talk about the Sam Alman's

movie Fate and a little bit about

Odyssey. The Odyssey.

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Matt, we're back with more headlines.

The Sam Alman focused movie. The

Artificial has found a new home at an

indie studio Neon after Amazon gave it

the boot. Amazon walked away from the

project after striking a major

partnership with OpenAI. The $40 million

uh film stars Andrew Garfield as Sam

Alman and recounts the chaotic weekend

in 2023 when he was fired and was

reinstated as OpenAI's CEO. Neon plans

to release the film later this year and

is expected to position as an awards

contender. Uh you know very well

reggarded filmmaker made it. Um uh talk

about talk about that. And then just

secondly, a big movie is obviously

coming out or you mentioned Chris Nolan,

his latest film, The Odyssey, which

could be the biggest movie of the

summer, maybe the year. Tickets went on

sale, crashing AMC's app. People are

desperate to see this. Fandango says

first day sales were 10 times higher

than Nolan's last film, Oenheimer. Early

reactions have been raves despite a

backlash online. It's a fake backlash on

downing these trailers and calling the

casting of some of the actors. It's

ridiculous. It's a right-wing lunacy.

One of the biggest critics, of course,

is Elon Musk, who's been attacking the

movie, and director Nolan for months.

Uh, I haven't seen the movie. I'm going

to see it Monday, I think.

>> Yeah, I'm going Monday as well.

>> It looks It looks astonishing, you know.

Um, talk about I mean, I think they've

beat the backlash back. I don't think

any

>> That doesn't matter. That's just

[clears throat] It doesn't matter. So,

talk about these two movies, the Sam

Alman focus movie and the um and and

this uh this other one. I think it'll do

just fine. And I think neon is a good

place for it to go.

>> Listen, th this one, I don't know if you

and Scott give a wuss of the year award,

>> but Mike Hopkins at Amazon is an early

contender.

>> All right. Well, you can have one. You

have your own podcast.

>> I know I do. Trust me, we've I've gone

on and on about this.

>> What's the year? We stick with Brandon

Car is a [ __ ] That's the people we

focus on, but you can go for Mike

Hopkins, but go ahead.

>> So, listen. Amazon developed this movie,

hired Luca Guanino, who did Call Me By

Your Name and Challengers, uh, well-

reggarded filmmaker to direct this

movie. They went through all the

motions. The only thing that has changed

from when they green lit this movie last

year until now is that they now have a

$50 billion relationship with Open AI,

[clears throat]

>> right?

>> And it's so obvious that they're not

even denying it. Well, no, but when you

go around like I've I've, you know, when

you go around to these companies like

we're not touching that, you know, if

it's an Elon Musk property, they do this

all the time, right?

>> They do. But this the difference here is

that Amazon committed to this major

filmmaker and all of this talent. And

Amazon wants to be both. They want to

serve the masters in Seattle and be a

tech platform that is looking at the,

you know, the future of AI and all the

bets they're making there. But they also

want to be able to do real Hollywood

movies like Project Hail Mary that

requires relationships with talent. The

first call that Mike Hopkins had to make

on this was to Brian Lord, the head of

CIA, the most powerful talent agency

that has a lot of talent in this movie,

and tell him this movie by your

prominent filmmaker is getting dumped by

this studio. What do you think Brian

Lord is going to do the next time they

have a hot piece of material, not take

it to Mike Hopkins?

>> Right. So, what happens here is I mean,

I have read the script. I don't

particularly like the movie. I think

there's a lot of nonsense in it like

making certain people heroes who were I

think everybody's a mess in this

situation. No one looks good. But to

make Ilia a hero questionable make Jeff

Hinton a partyier. I was like what? Like

you know there's a lot of stuff I didn't

like in the script when I read it and I

got it years ago I think. But he's a

great filmmaker. I bet it's interesting.

It's sort of like the social network.

It's not really what happened but it's

not unwhat happened.

>> It's very much like that. And the the

difference here is that the

>> the stakes are much higher

>> because we're talking about these guys

who could potentially end the world. And

that's correct.

>> From what I understand, I also read an

early draft of the script. It the tone

of it is pretty dark and it makes you

feel bad. One one potential buyer who

saw and didn't buy the movie said it

it's the feel bad movie of the year.

[laughter]

>> But it it sort of doesn't matter whether

this movie is good or bad. There is a

social contract in Hollywood where if

you commit to a filmmaker and you commit

to talent, you're in this together.

And here it's Amazon, big tech company,

finally showing its face and saying, "We

are big tech company and we will bow

down and serve our master if we think

this is going to potentially even maybe

hurt our overall business." And that's a

there's a chilling effect there.

>> Yeah. And then they buy the Melania

movie. They look like idiots. They look

like

>> I know and you know listen the the

interesting thing I reported on the deal

and according to my reporting Amazon is

giving this movie away to Neon. They are

not paying a license fee that all that

they did was they committed to spend $15

million to market it and release it in

theaters which is what the filmmaker

wanted because he wanted a big

theatrical release. They're going to do

an awards campaign if the reviews are

good.

>> It's like the Trump movie. What was the

Trump movie? The

>> Apprentice. It's very similar to this

day.

The Apprentice does not have a streaming

deal.

>> Oh,

>> none of these big streamers bought The

Apprentice.

>> And that movie did not do very much

business in theaters, but it did pretty

big business on premium video on demand.

And it got two major Oscar nominations

for

>> it. It was a good movie. It was a good

film. This probably will be a good film.

We'll see.

>> I haven't seen it. So, there's mixed

reactions from the screenings, but good

actors involved and, you know, big

talent. And I think

>> this was this a good move by Amazon or

just stupid.

>> It depends whether you're in LA or

Seattle,

>> right?

>> In Seattle, you know, Mike Cop was

probably gonna get a promotion

>> because he managed this. He managed to

avoid this problem and get it sold to a

distributor that frankly is probably

going to do a better job with a movie

like this than Amazon would have. They

just lost a same filmmaker did the Julia

Roberts movie um the Me Too movie uh

After the Hunt and that movie cost $70

million and did almost no business. So

they just had a major flop when they

maybe uh Neon will be able to market

this movie. Neon did Anora which ended

up winning best picture.

>> Big hit. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a

perfect film for it.

>> In Seattle I think Mike Hopkins gets

props for this. In LA I think they take

a big a big credibility hit. you puts.

Anyway, and Odyssey, I think it's gonna

be enormous hit like,

>> oh, big hit, but not the biggest movie

of the year. I mean, we still got

Spider-Man coming out and Avengers like,

>> yeah,

>> those will likely be much bigger. I

think Toy Story will probably Toy Story

5 will probably end up being bigger than

the Odyssey. But the win

>> is if they can get this movie to 8,

nine, a billion, that would be a big win

for this movie.

>> For this movie and and and and then

it'll have a huge life.

>> Yeah. We think it's the biggest event of

the year. Um, but we're old people who

love history and love Chris Nolan.

>> Oh, I don't know. My kids are interested

in this movie.

>> Okay, that's good to hear.

>> That was Well, they off of course were

completely interested in Obsession and

Back Rooms. They My son knew everything

about Obsession [clears throat] and Back

rooms.

>> Those two movies are the story of the

year in Hollywood.

>> They really are.

>> The fact that two tiny movies for Gen Z

audiences can get to three $400 million.

>> It's It's such good news for the

business. See, I'm not surprised because

it had like it's sort of like heated

rival every like what a surprise. I'm

like it was an enormous book hit among

those people who like romantic

fantasies. Like it was already had an

inbuilt audience.

>> Yes. But as much as the media talked

about heated rivalry, it was never that

big of a mainstream hit.

>> Obsession cost less than a million

dollars to make.

>> Agreed. But I'm saying all the kids knew

about this stuff. Everyone and they had

followed it. Really? Cara, we have not

followed up because I remember coming on

your show during the depths of the

pandemic where you were saying the movie

business theaters are over.

>> I know

>> and young people don't care and now

every study we see says Gen Z likes

going to movies.

>> Let me make a caveat here. I think

there's been a a ma here's I'm going to

make another prediction. I think there's

a massive move away from social media

and online life and to like that same

son is going to church all the time.

that same son is going out more. You

know what I mean? Like, so, and these

were kids who just wouldn't be seen in a

theater. Now, the slightly older one

doesn't go to the theater, but he wants

to see the Odyssey for sure in the

theater because of the IMAX and

everything else. Um, and

>> and Chris Nolan is the brand. He's

probably not going because it's based on

a book that he had to read in high

school.

>> Yes. Yes. No, no, no, no. He definitely

he But what I'm saying is there has been

a move away. I think that that you're

going to see del massive declines in

social media usage and everything else

among young people. They want to have

real life encounters.

>> My 10-year-old is the same way. He he'll

he'll do the iPad, but he so much

prefers playing with his friends and

being outside and going to baseball

games or movies or whatever.

>> Yeah, there's a shift. There's a real

there's a real perceptible I'm taking

these apps off my face. Not everybody,

but to me, I feel like all of us want to

go out, right? And there's actually good

movies to go out, too. That's the thing

and that's the issue whether it's

backrooms and obsession for the youngs

or odyssey for the olds. I mean

>> do you think in 2030 years we're going

to look back on this era like we look

back on the madmen era of everybody

smoking all the time?

>> Yes, I do. I do because I do think it's

people will incorporate it and I think

to me young people are so much smarter

about usage online usage than I think

the real problem is 35 to 54 people.

Like to me that's the real problematic

group of people. But I think you're

right. They they they just made some

movies. I don't know if they'll stay

going to movies unless they have stuff

that speaks to them, right? That

actually

>> Well, that is what Hollywood is very

much doing right now. Try to shift the

intellectual property paradigm to match

this younger audience. Superhero movies

are increasingly for older people and

they're looking for IP like Minecraft.

There's probably going to be a Roblox

movie there. Super Mario. these

properties that are just for younger

people and feels they feel ownership

over them.

>> Absolutely. And I think that's fine.

That's absolutely fine. And if it's a

good movie, everyone like look, I don't

think anyone thought Devilish Prodit was

going to make a billion dollars. I mean,

>> millennial nostalgia.

>> Yes. But it was also a good movie and it

was fun and

>> Oh, you're just saying that cuz you were

in it.

>> I also I was in it and I deserve an

Oscar, but that's another

>> I stood up when I saw you. I stood up

and applauded.

>> What my favorite thing was someone sent

me a note. There was a screening in San

Francisco. This bunch of gay guys um

rented the movie theater inside it and

then didn't know I was in it and they

shrieked because I'm well known. I'm a

well-known gay in San Francisco. But it

was very funny. It was fun. But I I

don't I didn't think it was going to be

that big, honestly. But it was

>> I didn't either. I do a box office draft

with Lucas [clears throat] Shaw and and

neither of us uh Sorry. I didn't pick

it. He picked it and he got the benefit.

>> Actually, I thought it when I saw it, I

was like, "This is a lot of [ __ ] fun.

This is and it's really good and really

fun and really actually more and more

depth actually. It was good.

>> I picked the Michael Jackson movie

though and that's going to get to a

billion dollars. So, I'm pretty happy.

>> That's also Yeah, there's some really

promising movies. There's a lot of not

ones that you're never going to see

again, too. Um, all right, Matt. One

more quick break. We'll be back for

predictions.

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>> Okay. Uh Matt, let's hear a prediction.

>> All right. So, I have a fun one and a

serious one. Okay.

>> I'll do the serious one first.

>> Okay.

>> I think Netflix will launch a free tier

within a year.

>> Oh,

>> this is where it's going. all of this

low value podcast,

social video, YouTube style content,

>> they are going to separate it or have it

available on the paid tier as well, but

they're going to put it into this

>> free tier that will serve as a top

offunnel for the regular Netflix and

hopefully juice their advertising

business via engagement.

>> Right. Okay. A little bit of Tuby. Go

ahead. a little bit of to compete with

those and you know query whether it will

harm the brand or cause people that pay

for Netflix to switch to a non-paying

situation but it's getting to the point

where Netflix is showing us their cards

they are so obsessed with YouTube they

will launch a real YouTube competitor in

a free service and they can put some of

this old show content that they haven't

licensed out anywhere and is not doing

much on the platform form. They can put

that on the free tier and have it be

like a Tuby or a Pluto TV where it

serves as a funnel for the other

services.

>> That's a great idea. They could do

deals. Yeah, that's an interesting

that's an you know, it was interesting.

I saw pictures of Neil Moen from YouTube

and Ted walking into the Sun Valley

thing. Uh which was interesting. I was

like, I'd like to see them chitty jet.

Like I'd like to be in front of them

seeing them. By the way, that thing also

looks bad this year for some reason.

Like I never liked it. Never get invited

because I'm a pain in the ass. But um

but they uh it looks particularly

tonedeaf this year for some reason. But

maybe you don't think so.

>> I'm interested in the fashion.

>> Oh, okay. The outfits Lauren Lauren

Sanchez

>> and the David Dazzlo denim on denim

look.

>> Denim. He's still that guy works the

lesbian look so beautifully. I

[laughter] have to say

>> I'm not going to go there, but it is

certainly it's like his his sort of uh

souped-up cowboy look.

>> Yeah. Well, I

>> I'm sure [clears throat] both those

denim jackets cost face. I'm like, you

look like a lesbian I used to date back

in the 80s. Anyway,

>> all right. Uh, speaking of the gays, do

you want my fun prediction?

>> Sure. Yes, please.

>> I think the new album from Madonna will

get a album of the year Grammy

nomination.

>> I'm with you on that.

>> Which would be her first since 1998.

Confessions 2 getting unbelievable

reviews. Um, I listen to it. You know,

dance music's not my thing, but

>> it's good

>> for what it is. It's very good. And I

think that there's a narrative around

her. She's performing at the World Cup

finale. And I think that the buzz around

Madonna is she's a survivor and will

score that album of the year nomination

from the Grand.

>> Yeah, I agree. Let Madonna be Madonna.

She hasn't like stooped. She doesn't do

nostalgia. She could easily do a lot of

stuff. She did a little bit on that last

tour that I went to. I went to the

concert. This is a great album.

No, it was not. And it made me sad. And

then now she doesn't dance like she used

to.

>> She's too slow. I'm like, don't dance.

It's like, who's that guy right now

who's dancing? Oh god, there's an old

rocker that needs

>> Oh, there was a video of Barry Manalo.

>> All of them. I was like, sit down. You

need to sit down. It's I love you so

much. And you need But in this case,

>> Billy Joel, Elton John, they sit down.

>> They sit down. And but Madonna's album

is quite good. It's really It's It's not

just And it's not nostalgia. It's

interesting. like it's an interesting

and she refuses to be anything but

herself and I I think people kind of

like that and I just think she's the OG.

>> She should be a pivot guest. I bet she

has opinions on the mergers and

acquisitions.

>> I Oh, I bet she does. She's as sharp as

a [ __ ] tack. That's one thing about

>> she went after her label. Remember she

had this whole period where she took a

big deal with Live Nation and she left

her longtime record label and was sort

of floundering and she criticized Gaio

Siri. She's she's got opinions. I I you

know what she really was she sort of she

she walked so Taylor Swift could run.

Let's just you know what I mean like in

a lot of ways. I'm going to ask you for

one more prediction.

>> How you you made a joke about this which

made me laugh hysterically but the

Taylor Swift wedding. She she goes she

couldn't possibly be preparing a movie

about it. Could she? Could she? And then

you said could she? Is she? Will she?

>> Okay. So a couple things there. I don't

think it will happen now after I have

seen you talked to a lot of people who

were there and I've seen how it played

out. She didn't get releases from all

the big stars that were there. Now, you

could argue that maybe they they put up

signs there that said like this could be

filmed, so maybe they could get away

with that. But do you think they're

going to put out a special on Disney

Plus where Tom Cruz and all these

athletes and

>> are dancing on the stage?

>> Yeah, there sort of private moments.

There were no phones or anything there.

I It would be so tacky to do that. I

talked to someone who was there who was

saying that was the most interesting

thing about the wedding is seeing all

these people like JLo and Tom Cruz and

all these people that have had handlers

around them for literally decades be

forced to socialize at a party with

other famous people without their teams

or their phones or anything.

>> Yeah, they must have loved it. They must

have loved it.

>> Or they don't know how to interact with

people. Someone said JLo was very

awkward. So, she's not making a movie

because I would watch the [ __ ] hell

out of that.

>> Oh, yeah. Everyone would watch. It's not

a matter of whether it would be popular.

It's a matter of whether they were are

willing to take a a a withdrawal from

the credibility bank to do that because

it's so tacky. Even if they made a

donation of the money they got to a

charity, it's still pretty tacky. Like,

no. Think has any celebrity done that

since Kim Kardashian?

>> Feels very Elizabeth Taylor. I bet they

I don't know. Kim Kardashian did it with

Chris Humphre and it was a big E

special,

>> but

>> I don't know. I I I

>> She might not.

>> Maybe I have more faith in Taylor than

you do. I still I just think it's be so

tacky that they won't do it.

>> Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm asking you.

That's why I want to know. I'm just

telling you. I'd watch the hell out of

it and I wouldn't consider it tacky.

>> And all the people who went there just

the level of people would find it to be,

I think, a bit of a betrayal. Although

at the same time they all managed to get

pictures themselves like here I am going

to the thing.

>> A lot of them did but a lot of them

didn't. A lot of the executives didn't

and you know [clears throat] it's the

people who already have big

>> followings on social media who leveraged

it.

>> She'll she'll she'll release a few short

videos and tasteful

>> that I agree with. The question is will

she do it with the brand or will she do

it on her own channels?

>> On her own.

>> She's bigger than any media property.

Everyone's like oh give the photos to

Vogue. Why the hell does she need Vogue?

Hey, does she need Vogue? She could do

it. She

>> does media stuff when it builds the

brand. She did the time person of the

year. She She will do stuff with media

when it suits her. But for this one,

just put it on your socials.

>> Put it on your social. She doesn't need

anybody. She doesn't She'll make a big

album out of it in a news tour and

that'll be that.

>> I know people are already joking about

the what the divorce album's going to

be.

>> Oh, stop it. It's [laughter] not

happening. That's you know, although the

guy who did Jack Antinoff is getting a

divorce from Marquali. Um They're

separated. Cara, let's not jump to

conclusions.

>> All right. I I'll try not to, but that

No one saw that coming. Anyway, uh

[laughter] this one I think is for life.

I do I have to believe in them. I I

really don't even like straight people

that much. So, but I I believe in this

wedding. I don't know why.

>> I I I am a Taylor Swift fan and I enjoy

Travis Kelce as a football player and a

media personality.

>> I hope this works out.

>> Nothing but the I do. I believe in them.

I hate I mean honestly

>> even if it doesn't work out I hope it

gives the world a Taylor Swift baby.

>> I feel like it's going to I have a

feeling it's going to I don't know.

Anyway, we want to I know I'm stupid. We

want to hear from you. Send us your

questions about business tech or

whatever's on your mind. Go to

nymag.com/pivot.

Submit a question for the show or call

8551

pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for

listening to Pivot and be sure to like

and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

We'll be back next week. Uh Matt, thank

you so much. I really enjoy talking to

you. You're really such a pleasure.

>> I appreciate you having me on. I am very

much looking forward to learning where

Scott is right now

>> and tell people where what everyone they

can watch and read you obviously. I

would subscribe. I I don't like everyone

at Puck as you know, but I love you. I

love Eric. I love Cohen. You know, so

many things. [clears throat]

>> You can subscribe to Puck at puck.news

and you can listen to the town uh on all

the platforms, YouTube, Spotify.

>> Terrific. You do a terrific job. You do

a terrific job at it and it's a really

great podcast. Anyway, I really

appreciate it. Thank you for being here.

And Scott will be back next week for

wherever he is.

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