Please welcome Andrew Ross

Sorkin please Please and

his please guests CEO of

Tesla CEO of SpaceX chief

engineer and CTO of X Elon

Musk. Good evening

everybody. Thank you so

much for being with us

throughout the day and I

couldn't be more pleased

to sit with Elon Musk has

our final interview of this

remarkable time. We've all

had together. He doesn't

need much of an

introduction by which

want to say a couple things.

He's the richest person

in the world. He very well

be the most concise

how most consequential

individual in the world

right the world in

individual

most consequential console

right now. He runs the most

Innovative companies.

World Tesla SpaceX

starlink, which is part of

that neuro-link the boring

company X and his x.a. I and

he's disrupted each

of these Lanes. He's moved

at Breakneck Breakneck

speeds, but he's

facing a storm of controversy

in the process. He joins

us today following a visit

as you all know, so well

we discussed earlier on

Monday to Israel where he

met with the Prime Minister

there and the

president of Israel and we're

going to talk about

everything and my hope is

that we can talk

about how he he thinks about

He thinks his influence about

he thinks his power about

He thinks all of it.

And we're going to talk

about Innovation and

everything else. I

want to say just

two other things real quick.

So we met each other

for the first time 16 years

ago. Yes, long time

a long time and all the kids

were three when we first

met I do. I think I do

you're just you're about

to deliver your first

Roadster. I don't think you

had yet. Larry Page was

still waiting. Yeah.

It's to get like in 2007

2008 and I don't agree with

a little bit 2008. I

remember going back to The

Newsroom and saying I think

I just met the next

Steve Jobs and it was

I'm at a hold to that.

Okay, I'm gonna hold to that

but a lot has happened

between when I first met you

and now you came to deal

with been boring, that's

for sure. Well, actually it

taken by a

driver boring Kony

driver boring kony2012. You

came. To deal book and

sat on this stage and we're

thrilled to have you back

but there's been so much

that happens between now and

then and there's been

so much that's

happened in the past week

week and a half and a lot of

folks and I want to tell you

this elevator. A lot of

folks called me up

and said you really you

really going to host Elon

Musk here. Can you believe

what he just said on

Twitter on 1X on? Yeah,

Yeah. Yeah, no idea what

this Twitter thing

about. Should you platform?

Him, that's what they said.

Yeah, did you platform then?

I said that I think it's

our role. And I know you

have issues with

Journal has a platform

and I know you have

an issue with journalists

often times, but I said

it's our role to have

conversations and to inquire

and to and sometimes even

interrogate ideas and that's

what I'm hoping. We can do

that. So I want to start

just so we can begin this

conversation and just level

just and conversation this

begin can we so just start

to I want

level said take us through.

Everything that happened

if you could everything

know over the past week

and a half of your God

we're going to we've got the

time, okay. You send out

a you send out a post or

an X or a tweet,

otherwise, whatever. Yeah,

as I'm trying to like

when things were just 140

characters that made sense

coma tweet because

like a bunch of little birds

chirping, but when you know

point which you can put like

three our videos on

it's like it's very long

tweet. So here we are.

This is more descriptive I

think and at some point

I don't know where you were.

But you write in responding

to another tweet. Yes.

This is the actual truth

and it set off a firestorm

of criticism all the way to

the White House, right? And

then you make this trip

to Israel. You have

advertisers who left the

platform people calling.

Well, the trip to Israel is

independent of it wasn't

something like apology tour.

I want to be clear. That was

well. Let's talk about that.

So just but

just take this back. Back

to the moment at which you

write that trip

to Israel is independent of

was like in response

to that at all. Well, let's

do it will do is really just

a moment. I have no problem

being hated hated, hated

by the way. I hear it

away. Well, but you know

what, let's go straight to

that then for a second

sure because there is an

idea and you could say that

you don't real weakness 21

He liked a real weakness.

I do not have that. Let me

ask you this. Then. There's a

difference

you're saying I don't care

if anyone likes me or

they hate me, but given your

power and given what you

have amassed and your the

importance you have. I would

think you want to be trusted

I would think maybe you don't

need to be liked or hate

it but trusted matters if

if x is going to become a

financial platform where

people going to put

their money where people

where the

government's going to

give you money for

four Rockets where people

are going to get into the

cars. They need to

ultimately decide that

you are they don't have

to say that they love you,

but that you are ultimately

a decent and good human

being. Yes. being. human

good and decent a

ultimately you are that but

Yes. I am and I think I am.

But but I'm certainly not

going to But do but some

sort of tap dance to prove

to people that I am so as

for trust, I mean, I think

write that down in a few

ways if you want your

if you want satellites

into orbit reliably SpaceX

will do 80% of all master

orbit this year China will

be 12 percent. The rest

of the world will do eight

that includes Boeing

Lockheed and everyone else.

So the track record of the

rocket is the best by far

of anything you

could you could hey My guts

next you could not

trust me. It is relevant the

rocket

track record speaks for

itself with respect to

Tesla. We make the best

cars whether you height

your life hate me like

me or

in different different.

Do you want the best car

or do you not want the

best car so So I will

certainly not Pander and

Johnson like the only

reason I'm here is because

you are a friend. Like what

was my speaking fee? You

don't you're not making any

example. I'm Andrew. But

yeah, sorry. It's okay.

Second of all,

we've known each other

for a very long time

smoking. Yes, and listen,

you know what? I'm trying to

illustrate us that sometimes

I say the wrong thing. I

think they're a lot of

people who are tired, but

let me let me go back.

You should hear the

sketches that SNL

wooden post. By the way,

those are really good by

wooden post and I would say

By wooden post.

unfortunately or fortunately

or unfortunately whatever

friendship we have not

great. We don't talk to

each other that that much

but let me ask you this.

That's true. Where am I?

Where am I

because I need any validation

or it is that It it

we've been friends for 16

years It and I

promised you I'd be here and

that's why I'm here. Well, I

appreciate you being here

for any other reason but

let me ask you this. Then.

Let's just go at it. Just

tell me what happened you

write this tweet that says

that this is the actual

truth people read that

tweet. Yes, and they say

Elon Musk is an

anti-semite that he is.

He's riling up this base

you're hearing it from as

I said the White House your

You get from Jewish

groups all over

I think Jonathan Greenblatt

from the ADL is here.

There's lots of people who

say this and by the way,

it's not just that

generally the whole thing

during the whole I did and

that's why when I ask her

responses, excuse me,

I said more More

responses. Yeah, I said

more I said more than what

you just

read this the other was

absent. There is absolutely

more. Yes, but I'll tell you

the thing that struck me

it wasn't and I'm

an American Jew. It wasn't

just the people who had

that view was actually

people who who really

are anti-semites who said

oh my goodness go go E Lon

this is E Lon, fabulous.

E Lon E Lon, And that

actually was the thing that

really me set really

really that thing the was

actually that And back. I

said I myself

what's going on here and I

want to know how you felt

about What's going on that

what's going on in that

moment. When you when you

saw all of this happening.

Yeah. Well, first of all, I

did clarify almost

immediately what I meant,

I would say that that was

you know, if I could go

back and say I should

in retrospect not have

replied to that

particular person and I

should have written in

Greater length as to what

I meant. I did

subsequently clarify. In

replies, but

those clarifications were

ignored by the media. And

essentially I had a loaded

gun to those who hate me

and arguably to those who

had just medic to

fill in for that. I'm quite

sorry. That is not

that was not my intention

intention. So I that sorry

did, you know That sorry.

post on my primary

timeline to be absolutely

clear that I'm not

anti-semitic that and

anti-semitic not I'm that

clear absolutely be to and

that I in fact if anything

and file of Summer Enoch

and the trip to Israel was

planned before any of that

happened. It was neither

here nor there. Do you see

this thing? You know what

it is? I do because I

actually followed your tire

trip to Israel right when

I tell everybody. This is

the says. It says bring them

home. the hostages it was

given to me by the parents

of one of the hostages.

and I said I would wear it

just as long as there was a

hostage store meeting and I

have what was that trip

like and obviously,

you know that there's a

public perception that and

your clarifying this now.

but But

there is a public perception

that that was but part of

But a apology tour. If

you will that this had been

said online there was all

of the criticism there was

advertisers leaving we

talked to Bob I gotta stop

you. Hope don't Hope

gotta stop you. I Bob to

talked we leaving

was advertisers don't

advertise. You don't want

them to have a Time know.

What do you mean? If

somebody

could try to Blackmail me

with advertising

blackmail me with money go

f*** yourself. but go f***

yourself. Is that clear?

I hope it is. Hey Bob.

You're in the audience. Well,

let me ask you then. That's

how I feel. but advertise,

how do you But advertise,

think that about the

economics of x if part of

the underlying model least

today and maybe it needs to

shift. Maybe the answer

is it needs to shift away

from advertising

advertising? If you believe

that this is the one part

of your business where you

will be beholding to those

who have this view.

What do you do? Why? I

understand that there's a

reality to right.

Yes, no. No, I mean

Ocarina is right here, and

Ocarina is right here she's

got to sell advertising.

Absolutely. So no no,

don't tell you so well,

no, actually what this

advertising boycott is is

going to do it's going to

kill company. And you think

that the and And and the

whole world will know that

those advertisers killed

company and we will

document it in

great detail. But there are

those advertisers I imagine

are going to say

they're going to say we

didn't kill the company.

Oh, yeah, they can you say

hello to tell to Earth,

hello to tell to Earth but

they're going to say that

hello to tell to Earth,

they're going to say you

hello to tell to Earth

Lon that you killed the

company because you said

these things and they were

inappropriate things and

they didn't feel

comfortable on the platform,

right? platform, the

comfortable on feel didn't

they and things

inappropriate That's that's

what Amanda said. Let's see

how Earth response to that.

So many okay this then this

goes back to what

we'll both make our cases,

right and we'll see what

the outcome is. What are the

economics of that for you?

I mean you have enormous

resources so you can

actually keep this company

going for very long time.

Would you keep it going for

a long time if there was

no advertising? I mean if

the company fails because of

an Advertiser boycott, it

will fail because of times

boycott and that will be

what bankrupt the company

and that's what

everyone on Earth will know.

What do you think then

of the I can trust though?

They're not be gone and we'll

be gone because of an

Advertiser boycott, but you

recognize that some of those

people are going to say

that they didn't feel

comfortable on the platform

and I want I just wonder and

ask you about and think about

that for a

sec to adjudge with

dollar to a judge it, but the

judge is going to be

judges the public. And you

think that the public is

going to say that that

Disney is making

a mistake.

Yeah, and they're going to

boycott Disney

yeah, and they're going

Yeah, and they're going

yeah, and they're going

they already are well, there

are some that are

for lots of different

reasons, but you think that

this is going to that you

have the this

ghost actually the

interesting of power

of power and leverage let

the chips fall where they

may

Let the chips fall where they

may I just want y that is the

approach. I asked it because

you've been

with every approach. Well,

you've been very particular

about the approach to Tesla

when you think about the

engineering involved in that

the approach to SpaceX the

approach to some of the

stuff you're doing with

with AI has been very

specific right? There's not

a let the chips fall

where they may approach to

those businesses. I

don't think that we focus on

making the best products

and products best the

focus on making we

think that don't I and Tesla

has gotten

to where it's gotten. With

no advertising at all. I

understand that Tesla

currently sells to

twice as much in terms of

electric vehicles as

rest of electric car makers

and United States combined

tell has done more to help

the environment than all

other companies combined

refer to say that therefore

as a leader of

the company. I've done more

for the environment than

everyone else at any

single human on earth.

How do you feel about that?

Now

what are still about that?

Yeah. No, I'm asking you

personally how you feel

about that because this goes

we're talking about power and

influence and I'm saying

I'm saying what I care

about is the reality of

goodness not the perception

of it and what I see all

of the place is people who

care about looking good

while doing evil f*** them.

Okay. Let me ask you this

because I think part of

let me ask this Let me ask

by the way, there's some

people who said look

owning X to begin with as

just created problems that

you created so many amazing

things that are changing

our world and and I know you

want to make X at this And

world. fabulous

Town Square Free Speech

platform, but that

unto itself that that has

create such a distraction of

all of these things. This

is the conversation

we're having we're not

focus. We're not talking

lease yet and we will

on Tesla you have your

cyber truck deliveries.

Tomorrow and everything

else you're doing but

is there any will be the

biggest product launch of

anything but by far on Earth

this year is

it is there any part of you

though? That just says

you know what I just

shouldn't have done this

or maybe I should sell it

or give it away or do

something else with that

with the X piece of it.

Yeah, given given given the

propensity for some of the

things that you do and

say on that platform

to create these these issues.

Yeah. I will

the posts I've done on the

platform. I think

there might be. 30,000 or

something like that right

once in awhile. I'll say

something foolish. And I

have and I would certainly

it put and And that comment

and that you said there's

truth in among perhaps

one of the most

foolish if not the most

foolish thing I've ever done

on the platform and I did

do my best to clarify

afterwards that you know, I

certainly don't mean

anything anti-semitic in

that the nature of the

criticism was simply that

the that simply was

criticism of the nature the

that in the Jewish people

have been persecuted for

thousands of years. Ears.

There is a natural Affinity

therefore for persecuted

groups. This has led to the

funding of organizations.

organizations that

is essentially promote any

persecuted group or any

group with the perception of

persecution. This includes

radical Islamic groups.

Everyone here has seen

everyone the Everyone

everyone massive

demonstrations for Hamas in

every major city in the

West. That should be

jarring. Well a number of

those organizations received

funding from

prominent people in the

Jewish Community. They

didn't expect that

to happen it but if you

generically But it. but it

But it. without condition

sort of fund if you find

the persecuted groups in

general Some of those

persecuted groups

unfortunately won't your

annihilation. and And and

what is what I meant by

that And when I

subsequently

clarify it is is that

it's unwise to to to find

to find organizations

unwise to it's

clarified is is that

organizations that support

groups that want your

annihilation. Is this

coming across McNeely? Yeah

my question to you though.

Logically. This is makes

a lot of sense.

Is there any part of you?

Just tell me what

happens though? When once

all this happens, let's say

you find a group that group

supports

Moss. He wants you to die.

Perhaps you should not fund

them, right? But you but

you do thank you but you

But you but you you do

appreciate that when you

wade into these very

delicate Waters When that.

at these when that When

that. very delicate times.

Yes, Yes that it can create

a real. I mean as it

created headlines for the

past two weeks and and

economic impact. What I'm

just so curious what happens

in your brain when you see

all this happening, I think

are you sitting there going?

Oh my God, I stepped in it.

I wish I didn't do that.

Are you saying s***

through them? I hate these

people why they after me but

all of that. Yeah,

all of that. I mean, look,

I'm sorry for that that

pre or post. It was foolish

of me of the 30,000. It

might be literally the worst

and worst the literally be

might It 30,000. the me of

foolish of was dumbest to

post that I've ever done

and I try to do my best

to clarify six

ways to Sunday, but But

ways to Sunday. you know,

at least but ways to Sunday,

But ways to Sunday. I think

over time it'll be obvious

that in fact far from being

anti-semitic. I'm in fact

follow Semitic and my

all the evidence in my

track record

would support that.

Obviously. There are people

who say crazy things on on

X, as you know, maybe think

they're crazy people are not

they're not the crazy, but

they're think maybe know, you

as X, the aspiration for

X is to be the global town

square.

Now if you were to walk down

to let's say

x square, right? Do you

occasionally hear people

saying crazy things? Yes,

but they're not they don't

have the megaphone right and

that's that's the conundrum

but they can only say it to

50 or 100 people that are

that are sitting standing

there in Times Square. They

don't have a mega. I mean

look the the joke I used

to make about old Twitter was

it was like giving

everyone in the psych ward

a megaphone. So, you know,

you So, megaphone. ward a

the psych in everyone

giving like I'm aware of

that things can

gets promoted that are -

beyond Gets promoted the

sort of Circle of somebody

simply gets promoted

screaming crazy things in

Time Square which happens

all the time, you know, so

the it's actually it's

pretty rare for something

frankly that is hateful to

be promoted. It's not

it's not it's not

that it never happened. But

it's it's fairly rare.

I mean, I would encourage

people to look at

for those that use the

system when you look at

the the sort of the feed

that you receive. How often

is it? Is it hateful and

over time has it gotten

more or less hateful and I

would say that if you

look at at the look you if

that say I would and hateful

less or it gotten more the

X5 forms a day versus a year

ago. Go I think it is

actually much better.

I mean, what is your

clothes? Like are you

surprised I'm just curious

if you use this I use the

platform religiously I

so you admit to being an

addict you and I use the

for you and I will I will

say now the problem is

because I'm a journalist I

go looking for stuff. Well,

that's not a sentence saying

because I and I also think

the algorithm for me

personally because I'm

looking for stuff also is

feeding the others things.

This is actually a challenge

in that A a like sometimes

people will say like why

is it showing me, you know

posts from this person

that I hate and

we're like well, did you

interact a lot with this

person that you hate? Well,

yes. Well therefore

thinks that you want to

interact more with this

person that you hate.

That's like a reasonable.

Let me ask, you know,

if you kind of want

to have an argument tweet.

Yeah. Do you have a post?

Let's say post when you

post it wasn't a moment. If

anyone can I come up with a

better word? better a

come up with I can anyone

If moment. post it wasn't a

word? That would be great

when you post though, but

this bad word I can think

of is post. So when you

post though, do you are you

trying to rile up either a

base or an audience? Do

you recognize the power

you have in that? And and

also by the way not just

rile up rile up one version

of sorry, but also

write down which is to say

as I said, there are people

who are demonstrable

anti-semitic on the site

who I get jewboy things. All

sorts of things that come

through on my way.

Hey for a while. I thought I

was through so they would

you know get it to it. But

no, but the question is

condemned as Supergirl you

ever think to yourself.

You know what I'm gonna go

online and I'm going to say

these people I condemn these

people that are on my

site saying these things

because I have said I have

you see I've condemned an

assembly but do you ever

go I said I could can

literally I literally posted

I condemn anti-Semitism in

all its forms like that is a

literal we've literal post

that post we've literal

literal a like that is forms

all its in that I made.

I mean, I'm like listen if

I can get out thesaurus if

you you know, and we could

you know, I let me ask you

a different question

you you you compose it. I'll

post it. Okay. Let me

ask you this. You You you you

you you you You you you

your honor you're

on a podcast about a month

ago. And you said something

that struck me and

it struck me is accurate

came out of your mouth. So

hopefully it is but it I'm

hoping to go deep on this

stuff because it came out

of my mouth

does not mean it's true. You

said my mother who said

my mind is a storm. I don't

think most people would

want to be me. They

may think they want to be

me, but they don't know

they don't understand. What

did you mean by that?

What was that what your

mind being a storm and I

think it I mean I have

known you for quite

some time. I think it is

a bit of a storm. Yes.

Yeah, I mean I Yeah. Yeah,

know as much as a where the

metaphor make sense,

my mind is often feels like

a like a like a very Wild

Storm. I mean, I have

a fountain of ideas. I mean

I have my ideas and I could

possibly execute so

I have no shortage of ideas

Innovation is not

the problem. The problem

execution is the problem.

I've got a million ideas.

I mean, I've got an entire

entire design an got

mean, I've I

got a million ideas. I've

design for an electric

supersonic vertical. Off

jet but I mean I just if I

just can't do that as

well. I've had it for 10

years. And there's a million

things your storm a Happy

Storm. Yeah,

it's not a Happy Storm.

Yeah. tell us about that

Tell us because I think that

that tell us actually

Tell us when people try to

really understand you, I

think that there's a lot

there's a that think I you.

understand really to

people try it when of this

comes from some other place

and I want to talk about

that. What do you think

that is? It was really like

a psychiatrist catch her or

something. You know, I think

to some degree I was

born this way, but and then

it was Amplified by a

difficult childhood rightly.

So but I can remember even

in the happy moments when

I was a kid that there's

kid that was a I

happy moments when there's

just it just feels like

this just a rage of horses

Rage in my mind constantly

now this, you know

productively

manifests itself in

technology and Building

Things for the most part,

so And I think on balance

the output has been very

productive. I think the

results at as we you know,

discussed earlier with

SpaceX Tesla PayPal, which

is you know, still going

today the first year and a

company that I started in

fact the first In started.

year in a company I started

of to was funded by

New York Times company

Hearst knight-ridder and

remember We wrote some

of the software for we the

New York Times website We

we and we help bring

online several hundred

newspapers that previously

were only in front. Now.

This is in the 90s, which

at this point is like

I'm like good grandpa

black, but

basically, you know the

nineties and internet feels

like a Precambrian era when

there were only the sponges

so Anyway, so, anyway, so,

Anyway, so, you know,

anyway, so, I feel like that

a lot of productive things

have been done and you can

also look at Tesla as being

through as Tesla at look

can also you and been done

have productive things many

companies and wine like are

super charging network is

if it were if this

it tells

a supercharger Network

where its own company,

it would be a Fortune 500

company by itself. It's

just just the super

charging system. We also

make the cells we build the

electronics in the

power train from scratch.

We have the most Innovative

structural design. The

larger castings ever used.

We have the best

manufacturing technology

have the best manufacturing

We used. ever castings

larger technology

at Tesla better manufacturing

technology than

companies that have been doing

it. For 100 years. So so

these these Demons of the

mind, you know, I

for the most part harnessed

to productive ends, it's

Luna a script that does

it mean that once in a while

while. They they while

you know, go wrong wrong,

wrong wrong, but but and

this is a question, I think

a lot of lot of people,

think a question, I a is

this and wrong know, go

people, you know are always

trying to figure out about

not just you but sometimes

Meaning what is driving all

this you're doing all of

these things. Do you think

it's do you think that you

would be as successful?

Whatever success is if it

wasn't being If if driven

by some I think that

there's something

you're trying to prove

either yourself or to

somebody. I don't know. We're

all trying to prove that

the person who is my

mother. I don't know. No,

if I were to sit

describe My Philosophy it

is a philosophy of

curiosity. I did have this

existential crisis when I

was around 12 about

what's the meaning of life,

isn't it all pointless?

Why not just commit suicide

why exist? I read the

religious texts. I read the

philosophy books that are

especially the German

philosophy books made me

quite depressed frankly when

frankly depressed quite me

made books philosophy

German the when you're not

read schopenhauer

and each has a teenager. But

then I read but But but

Douglas Adams

Hitchhiker's Guide to the

Galaxy which is a book

on philosophy in the form of

humor. And the point that

Adams was making there was

that we don't actually

know what questions to

ask. That's why I said

that, you know, the answer is

that 42. that, that

Basically it's a giant

computer and and it came

up with the answer 42, but

then to actually figure out

what the out what figure

actually then to but 42,

answer with the up the

question is. That's

Actual hard part I

think this is generally true

also in physics at the

point of which you can

properly frame. The

question. The answer is is

actually the easy part. So

so so mi order vation then

was that well. My life is

finite really a

flash in the pan and on a

galactic time scale, but if

we can expand the scope and

scale of consciousness.

Then we are better able

to figure out what

questions to ask about the

answer. That is the universe.

And we're maybe we can

find out the meaning of

life or even what

question to what the right

question to ask is.

You know, where do we come

from? Where are we going?

Where are the aliens are

there aliens?

At you know, these these

questions. You you You know

is their new physics to you

discover or is this because

there's addition to be some

real questions about

dark matter and dark energy

energy. And so the

purpose of SpaceX

is to extend life beyond

Earth on a sustained basis

so that we can at least

pass one of the Fermi great

filters, which is that of

being a single planet

civilization if we are

single planet civilization

then Then we are simply

waiting around for some

then Extinction event

whether that is man-made

or natural. natural,

natural. But if

you're a single planet

civilization, eventually you

will something will happen

to that planet and you

will die. If you

were a multi-planet

civilization, you will live

much longer. Also multi

plant civilization is

that's the natural stepping

stone to being a multi

Stella civilization

and being out there Among the

Stars so, you know this

I think has To that. This is

not simply a defensive

motivation, but it is also

one where that you know

that gives meaning

Man's Search for meaning

triple

ask you if there's this

philosophy Point even

though it may seems rather

esoteric that may resonate

with a few people. We must

get past this Fermi filter

of Venus a great future of

being a single planet

civilization. And if we do

that will more likely to

understand the nature of

the universe and what

questions to ask if you're

a believer in the

philosophy of curiosity then

Philosophy of then

philosophy of I think

you should support this

Philosophy of ambition and

but it's more that there's

being a multi-planet species

is more than than simply.

You know life

insurance life insurance for

Life collectively. That's a

defensive reason, but but I

think also that that life

has to be more than

simply solving one side

problem after another,

you know, they're happy that

be reasons many where you

wake up in the morning and

you're happy to be alive.

They have to be reasons that

you you have to say.

Why are you excited about the

future like what gives you

hope? And and if you if you

are unsure ask your kids.

And and I think the idea of

us being a spacefaring

civilization and being out

there Among the Stars. Is

incredibly inspiring and

exciting and something

to look forward to. And they

need to be such things

in the world.

May I ask you a different

question about confidence?

We were having

a conversation here earlier,

but people and where your

where people get

their Confidence from some

people have written

security other people have

insecurity great great

confidence and I was

thinking about you because

you have a very interesting

history where people have

told you over and over

again that you're wrong.

Well, sometimes

they're right. Well,

sometimes they are but I

would say that when

it comes to Tesla when it

came to SpaceX people

told you that you were

crazy. You're out of your

mind. This was never going

to happen. Yeah,

it's going to work. And so

yes, we ask you this

though and so

we're going to work is now

when people say you're

wrong. This isn't right.

Do you look at that and say

you know what that's like

a red flag for me because

you know, I've been told so

often that I'm wrong that I

know that I and I know

I'm right because I've had

that experience or other

people in your life

when they say, you know,

what Ilan this is not this

is not right. Do you know

what I'm saying? I mean,

I think

we're just trying to say is

that do at this point think

because

what you're trying to say is

I've been right so many times

for others have said I'm

wrong that now I passed

believe I'm right when

I fact I'm wrong.

You did very well. What

do you think

know? I'm right.

know? I'm right

know? I'm right. So

yeah, no, look. Here's

the thing No, I'm right.

think?

physics is unforgiving for.

Yeah, look here's the thing

physics is unforgiving

physics is unforgiving. So.

I mean I have you know,

these very simple things

I've come up with that

physics is the law and

everything else was a

recommendation right in the

sense that you can break any

law made by humans, but

try breaking a law made by

physics as much more

difficult. So if you are

wrong and persistent being

wrong, the Rockets will

blow up and the cars will

fail. So this is

we're not trying to

figure out what

flavor of ice cream is the

best flavor Figure out

figure out of ice cream the

like if there's a

thousand things that can

happen on a rocket flight

and only one of them gets

the rocket orbit. and And so

being wrong and And

results in Failure

when dealing with physical

objects, but that's

the interesting part. So now

you've built this these

great companies that

physically the physics of

them are enormously

successful. So successful

arguably that you have

leverage over everybody

else, right? There's nobody

else can do starlink.

Nobody else can get I

nobody else can get the

rockets in space yet Amazon

and Jeff Bezos are trying

but they haven't yet.

I hope he does you hope

he does. Yeah, and I think

you know, but I actually

agree with with love

Jeff's motivations. I mean,

I think you know he's so

I'm living for their

but this way if

there was a button I could

press that would delete

blue origin. I wouldn't

press it. So I think it's

good that he's spending

money on on making Rockets

to you know, it's just

Pepsi spend more time. it

but you know, it's up It

to him the

to make a point here. So

nothing nothing any of my

companies have done has

been to stifle

competition. In fact, we've

done the opposite. So at

Tesla we have open sourced

our patents anyone can use

anyone patents our sourced

open have we Tesla at So

opposite. the done our

patents for free how many

companies do not have done

that? Can you name one? I

can't at SpaceX. We don't

use patterns. So I mean

said once in a while will

file a patent just so some

patent troll doesn't

cause trouble but we're not

stopping any

that we've done we've done

nothing anti-competitive.

We've done nothing to stop

a not just you at all.

I just want to clarify

for the audience because

some companies have done

done anti-competitive

things. I think think the I

things. anti-competitive

done have companies the

strange thing about the

unusual. Thing about

space X and Tesla is

that we've done things that

have helped a competition.

So at Tesla we have made

our supercharger system

Open Access. We made our

we Access, We Access.

charger technology we

Access, available for free

to the other manufacturers.

The reason I know

Walled Garden we could have

put a wall up

the road instead. We invited

them in the reason I

mention this though is

because you've had

the success had you've

because though is this

mention I reason the

the success in the physical

physics world, you know.

Now have now have these

very difficult Now have

decisions now have that

have huge impacts on the

world that are not physical

decisions at all their

decisions of the Mind the

decisions that you and

others have to make

it as a question whether you

should be making these

decisions at all and I think

about in the context of

starlink. Obviously there

was the report about how

it's being used in Ukraine

and the rough War there's

questions about what you

know, Taiwan whether Taiwan

should use it or

we'll use it. I believe

they're not right now because

they're worried that at At

at some point maybe the

Chinese At will tell you

that you have to

they have leverage over you

and you're going to have

to turn that off right

then. These are these are

very difficult decisions.

And I'm so curious how

you think how you curious so

I'm and decisions, difficult

very are these about that

and not just the

decisions the fact that you

have that power. I think

it's important for the

audience to understand. The

reason I have these Powers

not because of some

anti-competitive actions

it simply because we've

executed very well. Oh, I'm

not dismissing that I think

there's so many people

by the way who are huge

supporters of what you

there are already dead lights

out there, you know, but

they're and but they're not

as good as yours and

the same and we can say

that maybe make the same

argument of cars and

everything else. But as a

result that gives that

result a as But else.

everything and cars of

argument same gives you

enormous Leverage Right,

okay with the exception of

the by the way, these

advertisers weren't on X in

every other instance.

Everybody needs you. Well,

I mean nobody's letting

them use our product if it's

better than you somebody

else's product. If it's

there are other

products better and I

accept that and maybe one day

so I can also create a better

product. Like, you know,

like, product Like, product.

how like, product is it about

thing to make better

products

with other companies? Well,

and I wanted to go back to

this to the

Starling piece of it though

because it that has sort of

a geo

geo political ramification

in terms of your power and

how you think about that

specific power and then

the power that the u.s.

Government might have

either over you or Not

Over Not or you over

either have might

Government u.s. the that

power Over You the The power

of the Chinese government

might have over you or not

over you and how those

things get used.

We're in what are you

suggesting? I'm asking the

question around this this

very idea of how these

satellites are going to be

used. Whether you think that

you should have control of

control have should you

think that you Whether used.

be to of them whether the

government should have

control of them was the

government. Well, that's a

there's a lot of people who

don't trust the government

exactly. But then this

goes back to the trust of

you. Right? I mean like

said that we're not the only

company who has communication

satellites. There are

considered lights are just

much better than theirs.

So it's not like we have

added Monopoly. Do you feel

do you feel like anybody has

attacked? has

you feel like anybody do

you feel do Monopoly

haven't

attacked? It's not like

you feel anybody has

leverage over you. I mean,

I think at the end

of the day if we make bad

products that

people don't want to use

then the vote will users

to use then the don't want

people that

if we make bad products users

will vote with their

resources and you something

else. It hit the

conversation for a

sec. I mean certainly

me and my company is

overseen by regulators and

and while you know, once it

once know, you while and

by regulators

and my company is overseen

it since SpaceX darling

Tesla. Are overseen by are

Are cumulatively are over

100 Regulators in actually

more than that few hundred

Regulators because you got

we're in 55 countries if you

sum up all the times that I

If countries. had an

argument with Regulators

of hundreds of regulators

over decades, it can sound

really terrible except

but they forgot to mention

that there were 10 million.

Galatians we complied with

and only five that I

disagree with

that little fight the five

and it sounds like wow

this guy's a real Maverick.

I'm like, yeah,

but what about the 10

million we complied with

do you limit one related

thing on this and The

Leverage of countries and

things over you and

Regulators X is this free

speech platform, you

platform do platform,

business platform in China

lots of business China.

That's an important part of

your business. I imagine

well not SpaceX. How do you

think about how do you the

How do you leverage that

the Chinese have over you

and do they have leverage

over you and how do you

feel about some people

would say is it

hypocritical for you to be

doing business in China or

frankly in other countries

as well as it relates to

X and other things that

don't follow this free

this follow don't that

things and other X

Where as it relates to free

speech path that you have

espoused. The best that

their platform can do is

adhere to the laws of Any

Given country. Do you think

there's something more

we could do than that

I think would be very hard.

But I just wonder given the

sort of strong philosophical

approach that you've

you've been vocal about

whether you say to yourself,

you know, maybe I shouldn't

be doing business in that

country. Well, first of all

Starling and SpaceX to are

no business in China

whatsoever. Tesla has one of

four factories for vehicle

factories in China and

China's, you know, I

don't know a quarter of our

Market or something like

that. And so it's a quarter

of Market of one company.

The same is true by the way

of all the other

car companies. They also

have something on that order

of that order on something

have also companies. They

car the other of quarter of

their sales in China. So if

you if that's a problem for

Tesla

to pump every car company.

I mean, I think

one has to be careful about

not conflating the various

companies because I can only

do things that are within

the bounds of the law. I

cannot do beyond that. My

aspiration is to do as much

good as possible and

to be as productive as

possible within the bounds

of what is legal. More than

that I cannot do I want to

Pivot in talk about AI for a

moment. We had

Jensen Wong here who's big

fan of yours is you know,

yeah Johnson's also

talk about talking about

bringing you the first box

by the way with Ilya

interestingly enough. Yes

back in 2016. I think

there's a video of Jensen

and be unpacking the first

AI computer at open a.i. So

I'm so curious what you

think of what's just

happened over the past

two weeks

while you were dealing with

this other headline series

of headlines. I was a whole

other whole

headlines. I was a of

series headline other this

with series of

have evolved in a

isopropanol AI. What did you

think? Well, you found it

co-founded. Oh found it. Yeah,

I'm well the whole Well

well Arc Well of open

and I frankly is a little

troubling because the the

reason for starting opening

I was to create a counter

counterweight to Google

Google and deepmind which

at the time had

two thirds of all AI talent

and basically infinite money

and compute and there was no

there's no counter weight.

It was unipolar world and

Larry Page and I used to be

very close friends and I

would stay at his house and

I and house his stay at

I would and friends close

be very to and I talk

to Larry. Too late hours

of the night about AI

safety too late Too late

too late and it became

apparent to me that Larry

what did not care about AI

safety. I think perhaps the

thing that gave it away

was when he called me a

speciesist for being pro

Humanity as in you know,

like erasers but for species

so I'm like, wait a second.

What side are you on Larry?

And I'm like, okay. Listen

this guy calling

me as fishiest. It doesn't

care about AI safety. We've

got to have some

counter point here because

the seems like we could be

this isn't just this is no

good. So, okay. I was

actually started at it was

meant to be open source. I

named it over and II after

open source. It is in fact

closed-source super

in fact closed-source is It

source. open my eye after

over super close.

You should be named renamed

super close source for maximum

profit. May I so because

this is what it actually

is. I mean fate loves

irony. I mean, in fact

friend of mine has this

says like the way to

predict outcomes is the

most ironic outcome is to

vote. It's like is

Occam's razor like

the simplest sort of

explanation is most likely

and my friend

join us viewers that the

most ironic outcome is the

most likely and that's

what's happened with

open a.i. It's gone from

an open source. Foundation

a 501 C3 to Suddenly It's

like a 90 billion dollar

for profit Corporation with

clothes horse. So I

don't know how you go from

here to there. But

that seems like a

I don't know how you get. I

don't know if this is legal.

It's like that's so as you

saw Sam Altman get ousted

Yeah by somebody, you know

Elia and helium was

somebody who was a friend of

yours. Yes, you brought him

there your relationship

with Larry Page

effectively. Down over you

recruiting him away.

I think that's correct.

That was the fact that was

the Larry refuse to be

friends with me after I

recruited illya and so

here's Elia apparently

saying something is very

wrong. I think we should be

concerned about this because

I think Elly actually has a

strong moral compass.

He thinks about you know,

he really sweats it over

questions of what is right

and if he felt strongly

enough to Want to you know

fire Sam Sam. Well, I think

the world should know what

was that reason. Have you

talked to him? I reached out

but he doesn't want to

talk to anyone. Have you

talked to other people

behind the scenes is this

is all happening.

I've talked to a lot of

people as nobody I've not

found anyone. Who knows why

have you I think we are all

still trying to find out

I mean one of two things is

either it was a serious

thing and we should know what

it is or it was not

a serious thing and and then

the board should resign.

What do you think

of Sam Altman?

I have mixed feelings about

Sam. I do. You know the

ring of power. You know can

corrupt. and

here's the ring of power so

You know, I don't know.

I think I want to know why

Ilya felt so strongly as

fire Sam the sounds like a

serious thing. I don't think

it was trivial. and And I'm

and quite concerned that

this that this um, you

know you dangerous element

of AI that they've

they've discovered? Yes, you

think they've discovered

something?

That would be my guess. Where

are you with your own AI

efforts relative to where

you think open AI is where

you think Google is. where

the others are I mean

on the AI front of in

somewhat of a quandary here

because I've thought I could

be something that would

change the world

in a significant way since

I was in college. I mean

like 30 years ago. Well,

the reason I didn't go

college, bull day. I

write for the get-go

was because I was uncertain

about which which edge

of the double-edged sword

which would be sharper the

good edge of the vat Edge.

So I held off on

doing anything on a I could

have created. I think

leading a company and kind of

opening I actually kind of

is that because I was just

uncertain if you make this

magic Genie what will

happen? you know, where as I

think

Building sustainable energy

technology is much more

of a single-edged sword.

That is that

single-edged sword single

edge. Good making life

multiplanetary. I think

single-edged good.

You're stalling mostly

single-edged good. I mean

giving people better

connectivity to people

that you know, don't don't

you know have connectivity

or too expensive I think is

very, you know, very much a

good thing. So only was

instrumental by the way and

the whole thing the Russian

Advance the Ukrainian said

so so, you know, I think

there's think know, I so, you

so said Ukrainian the

Advance Russian the

if it was AI, you've got the

magic Genie. Problem.

You may think you want

a magic Genie. But once

you've got Genies

out of the bottle, it's hard

to say what happens how far

are we away from that

Jeanne be kind of bodily think

we think it's already out.

When the genie is

certainly poking his head

out. the AGI The the idea of

the artificial general

intelligence The given

what you now are working on

yourself and you know how

easy or hard it is to train

to create the inferences

to create the wait. I hope

I'm not getting too far

in the weeds of just how

this works. But those

are the basics behind the

software end of this.

It's funny, you know all

these weights. They're just

basically numbers in a

are just weights

It's funny, you know, all

comma separated value file.

That's our digital God the

CSV file. on that are funny,

On that are on that are

On that are but that's

the kind of literally what

it is. So I think it's

coming pretty fast,

you know is that I mean,

you've famously have

admitted to overstating how

quickly things will happen.

But how quickly do you think

this will happen? You say

smarter than the smartest

human at anything. Yep. It

may not be then quite

smarter than all humans

will machine

augmented humans, you know,

because we keep y'all got

computers and stuff

as a higher bar. But you say

smaller than any, you know,

can write as good a

novel is say JK Rowling or

discover new physics or

invent new technology. I

would say that we are less

than three years from

that point. Let me ask you

a question about xai and at

what you're doing and

because there's an

interesting thing that's

different. I think about

what you have relatives