Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Are we up?

>> Yeah. Okay. Hi, Jesse.

>> Hello, Joe.

>> Right when we walked in, Jamie has

apparently been down some rabbit holes.

>> Deep rabbit holes.

>> And what is uh

>> Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole?

>> Who doesn't? Nobody that I like talking

to.

>> So, here's the name of the thing. I I

think I stumbled across this video

somewhere else, but here's a website.

>> Gray frogs and a reptilian on video.

MUON case142206

video taken from inside a UFO. And this

is from alienarchivist.substack.com.

So you know it's legit.

What is this? In 2021, June 12th, 1:15

a.m., anonymous man in Key West,

Florida, recorded a 42 second video,

allegedly also Key West, so you know

it's legit. Florida definitely not on

drugs. That's right. Definitely not

drunk.

>> Not on bath salt for sure.

>> 42 second video allegedly captured from

inside a UFO. Video appears to show the

interior of a room containing several

distinct entities with a cell tower

visible throughout what appears to be a

window in the background. According to

the investigative report, the tower's

obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30

times per minute, the same rate required

under FAA standards for a cell tower

obstruction lighting. Experiencer was

suffering from severe hip pain at the

time. Definitely not on drugs, severe

hip pain.

and believes the intense physical

discomfort, definitely that and not the

drugs, helped him resist the sedation

used by the entities, allowing him to

instinctively record the encounter. With

no conscious memory of the event, he did

not discover the video in his phone

gallery until 6 months later. He later

underwent hypnotic regression in an

attempt to recover his missing memories

from that night. Below are the key

visually enhanced stills and the 42

seconds of footage. Have you watched

this, Jamie?

>> I remember watching some of the footage.

>> Oh, you were drugged as well.

>> I'm

>> You don't even remember it. You got to

go through hypnotic regression.

>> I think we got to watch it.

>> I remember watching the people

discussing it though, so I don't you

know this I don't think

>> I'm sure this is crystal clear 4K video.

>> That's right. With no ambiguity

whatsoever. This is going to put the

Okay.

>> Holy crap.

Holy crap.

This guy in a sauna. The [ __ ] is this? A

steam room. He's got a phone from 1984.

What the [ __ ] is this? What is he

filming? This is horseshit.

>> Some entities sort of

>> I don't see jack [ __ ]

>> Hold on. He says he I think he answers

questions. It's only 30 seconds long.

>> Where's the entity?

>> Bro, this is the worst video I've ever

seen in my life.

>> It's the worst video ever.

>> This is terrible.

>> This guy is pathetically blinking.

[ __ ] closet with a an old beeper.

This doesn't make any sense.

This is terrible.

>> See, when I was watching that, they said

that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm

not seeing that. So, here's still frames

of the entities.

>> What the [ __ ] is that? Who knows what

that is? Who knows what that is? This is

nonsense. Oh, that's

>> They cut it out. I think they're

enhanced.

>> You think Do you think that's enhanced,

>> bro? We just saw the same video and

there's nothing on that video. Oh,

that's what it looks like. The dress is

wrong.

>> Oh, that's what it looks like. Well,

that's better.

>> See, the frogs and a reptile in a

[ __ ] lab coat. Why is the reptile

wearing a kimono?

>> To save myself here.

>> Look at the reptiles wearing a ghee.

He's about to do some reptile jiu-jitsu.

>> I said when I heard the frogs are part

of this, I thought it was [ __ ]

>> Looks like the like the [ __ ] reptile

man's about to get a massage.

>> It's like the sensei T-Rex in the corner

there.

>> This is so weird. This is a [ __ ]

nonsense [ __ ] This is the problem

with the whole UFO world and you do a

fantastic job of navigating it. And I

should just tell everybody if they

haven't seen you before,

>> American Alchemy best by far channel on

YouTube when it comes to UFO

discussions. You you're the most

balanced, the most reasonable, but also

open-minded, and you're willing to talk

to everybody, all the whistleblowers and

former this and former that, and

staffers, and this guy's got this

[ __ ] piece of evidence. And you talk

to everybody.

>> I do talk to everybody. And thank you,

Joe. That means the world to me. Um, and

I've definitely gotten things wrong. I

should say that it's a a very

treacherous landscape to navigate. Uh,

and uh, yeah, it's really hard to gain

any kind of, you know, if there's a

signal to noise ratio, it's hard to get

signal.

>> Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this

is the problem is I think a lot of that

noise is engineered. I think it's on

purpose. I think it is on purpose

because in today's world with AI where

it's actually easier to deduce the

signal than ever if you're an ordinary

citizen, if you want to muddy the

waters, you could try to get people away

from the signal or you could try to

increase the noise.

>> And that's those are two ways to deflect

from the truth. And I think the flood

the zone increase the noise is what the

kind of counterintel community has

decided is going to be the strategy.

Well, it's interesting because

instinctively if you've been around the

block and you've and you clearly have

more than anybody, you've seen enough of

these things, something comes up and

you're like, "Okay, I'm being [ __ ]

with like, okay, this is not real. Okay,

something." And then some of them you're

like, "Wait, okay, there's something

here." And it's just it's almost like

you have to go on the instinct that

you've developed by being inundated with

horseshit for so long. Well, I feel like

you're probably the best in the world at

that. It's all like, you know, in uh for

example, in AI, in machine learning, you

have garbage in, garbage out. So, if you

have bad data, then like there's bad

output on the other end. And your

pattern matching gets better over time.

And I think you have more data points

probably than anybody as far as like

there's probably a thing that you do

where you like lean in and you like lock

people in. and you like look them in the

eye and like you probably I don't know

if you're even like aware of it but you

can I feel like see through people

somewhat and that's not even

>> somewhat

>> somewhat

>> it's not in follow it's it's got faults

>> it's instinctive and I'm sure it's not

perfect but you're probably like S tier

at that and uh

>> I'm well rested this is also the problem

with me is that you know I own a comedy

club and I I'm addicted to playing pool

so sometimes I'll stay up till 4:00 in

the morning and then I have to get up at

8, you know, and then I'm only getting

four hours of sleep. So, I'm trying to

mitigate that and I come in like a

little foggy. That's that's a problem.

I'm trying to do that way less, you

know, but uh that [ __ ] me up.

>> But when I'm well rested, I'm pretty

good at it. As long as as long as you

know what you're looking for, you know,

if you've seen enough people [ __ ]

you and enough and you just you smell

it. It's weird. like you smell patterns,

you smell people being disingenuous or

you smell narratives.

>> They're trying to sell something or uh

>> kind of I don't know artificially round

something out when they don't know or

not be humble and be like I don't know,

you know, like it's it's ambiguous here

actually.

>> There's also a problem and I'm sure

you've faced this before too where a lot

of these people they've developed an

online identity that's based on being

someone who has knowledge about

something. And so they're they're

carrying this with them. So you're not

even getting a whole person. You get a

person that's wrapped in this cloak of

I'm a guy with UFO knowledge or I'm a

guy with, you know,

fill in the blanks simulation theory

knowledge or like whatever it is. It's

like they've they're not they they're

assured in their whatever this narrative

is that they're projecting.

>> It becomes a stickick over time. It

becomes this lowlevel sort of like uh

I'm this automaton and I'm going around

on the circuit and I'm saying the same

thing over and over again.

>> Yeah. Like a politician.

>> Like a politician. And that's why I love

uh thinkers in the UFO space like Jacqu

Valet.

>> He's the best.

>> He's the best because he's nuanced and

he says you can't take what happened to

you at face value. So, who knows? Maybe

somewhere out there somebody did get

abducted and see a frog and gray hybrid

alien being on, you know, or combo of

them on chips. But uh what he says about

the phenomenon is inherently you have to

sort of distrust the experience in some

ways and you're seeing a mask. You're

seeing something being projected from on

high from some higher dimensional space

or something into you know what you can

perceive. And it's kind of like if you

go back to Decart like Decart's demon it

has 3D total control over your

perception. And so ultimately you can't

say actually come out of the experience

saying much about what you've seen. You

know it was transcendent. You know it

was profound. You know you're getting

gaslighted by skeptics who are like

there's nothing there. Like something

did happen but it's very hard to say

exactly what and why. So

>> right and and then there's this this

weird conundrum of consciousness itself

like and how does consciousness actually

interface with reality? Are we

experiencing reality or does

consciousness have a role in rendering

reality? Which is what a lot of people

believe and they start making very

compelling arguments that consciousness

is actually rendering reality. You know,

Tom Campbell was on the other day and he

has this very weird way of putting it.

Have you ever talked to him?

>> I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan

and I saw your episode.

>> Fascinating. He's fascinating. So he

believes that it's like a video game in

which you know parts are not rendered

unless you are like actively entering

into a room. Say if you're playing a 3D

game, it doesn't render the entire 3D

universe until you go into a place where

it has to render it.

>> I believe that as well. And if you speak

to most people like if you had Sean

Carol sitting here, he would say

something like reality is probabilistic.

It exists in this quantum superp

position and that's just fundamentally

what it is. And if you look at the

origin of quantum mechanics with the

Copenhagen school, Neil's bore, all

these guys in Denmark sitting around

debating what reality is, it turned into

this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen

interpretation of quantum mechanics is

that measurement collapses the wave

function.

>> And you have to ask what does that mean?

like does it? And then now we basically

have gotten into this thing where it's

like the quantum detector or when you

know uh uh waves or particles collide

they collapse into specific states or

whatever. Um but who it's literally

unfalsifiable e in either direction like

you can't say it's not the observer it's

not the human being that's present. The

superp position could exist in the

quantum detector itself. So there and a

lot of the godfathers of quantum

mechanics themselves flirted with this

idea. So uh von Noman and Vner uh you

know David Bow a lot of these guys were

like actually we think the mind could

collapse the wave function. And then you

have parasychology uh institutes at

elite universities across America. the

Ryan Center at Duke, um, uh, Stanford

Research Institute, uh, Princeton

Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab,

which was started by the dean of

engineering at Princeton. And they all

have something called the random event

generator, um, experiment, which is

basically you tie something that is

conventionally thought of as random in

quantum mechanics. So something like

radioactive isotope decay or a double

slit experiment where you have, you

know, 50/50 distribution between the two

slits. No quantum physicist could ever

argue that that's not basically a

perfect coin flip, right? Over a long

enough period of time within a standard

deviation, you expect a certain amount

of slit one, a certain amount of slit

two, left slit, right slit. And you

bring an observer present and you say, I

want, you know, more of the right slit

or I want more of the left slit. And

it's usually tied to a graphical

interface and it you're seeing ones and

zeros. And in a statistically

significant way, consistently all of the

people who've studied these random event

generators come out saying that the

person is able to affect the supposedly

random quantum mechanical event. That's

crazy. And it's not necessarily

inconsistent with the original

Copenhagen interpretation of quantum

mechanics. So I think we've just like

totally gone astray. I think people like

Tom Campbell are like bringing back the

very importance of, you know, of

consciousness. It's this problem of the

eye seeing the eye. There's no way to,

it's the tree falls in the woods, you

know, Aristotle question. Like there's

no way to say that the observer isn't

important for rendering reality.

>> And we don't even really know if we are

conscious or if we are tuning into

consciousness. If consciousness is

ubiquitous, we don't know if

consciousness exists in in like

inanimate objects. There's real debate

as to whether or not the universe itself

is a conscious entity. So what we're

calling our consciousness might simply

be an antenna. And some people have

shittier antennas than other people do

just like you know just like a lot of

other variabilities when it comes to

biology. It's 100% and um great

theorists like Aldis Huxley, William

James have flirted with the transmission

theory of consciousness and so you have

a problem in conventional neuroscience

which is called the binding problem

which is you know we know all these

disperate parts of the brain we know

broca's area is responsible for speech

and Waricki's area is responsible for

reading comprehension and you know the

occipital the cerebellum or occipital

lobe is important for movement or

whatever. So you have all these things

and then how are we seeing the seamless

perception this seamless movie that

we're watching in in waking life? Nobody

knows that. And it's so take a radio.

You have a radio. You have the

capacitors, the battery, the antenna.

You could break any one of those things

and the radio would turn off. But you'd

have to know that the the frequency that

it's tapping into to understand that

wive of all these four seasons is

playing as beautifully as it is. And so

I think similarly we have a you know a

binding problem with with our

consciousness where you can mess up one

of the areas and it'll mess up a little

you know specific functionality but we

don't understand how it's all sort of

happening and right now you know the

issue the main issue with transmission

theory of consciousness visav the brain

is that traditional electromagnetism

decays at 1 / r 2 so it attenuates so

like how would we be able to you know

we're not picking up electromagnetic

waves with our thoughts right now with

radios. So, it's not conventional radio

signals like we know that. But there are

people like Hal Putoff out here who

you've interviewed who's really deep on

UFO science world, but also in just

general kind of heterodox and I would

say kind of science beyond the veil of

secrecy. like you know the guy's held

high clearances for many many years and

he's working on this thing called

extended electronamics

which is basically a signal that would

attenuate

so that it could travel in deep space

and it could travel under sea and it

would actually move at 1 / r not 1 / r

squared and so instead of you know in a

typical um electromagnetic wave you have

a a it's called a transverse herzian

wave and you have uh the electric field

the magnetic field and wave propagation

all moving perpendicular to one another.

But in this case in extended

electronamics you might have you know um

a magnetic field and wave propagation

moving parallel to one another or you

might not have a magnetic field present

or an electric field present. It's

really fascinating. And so you would be

able to get communications that like

wouldn't be picked up by traditional

radio receivers. They'd go much deeper.

And I've asked him, I've said, cuz he

started the CIA's psychic spy program.

I've said, "Is your work on extended

electronamics possibly related to

consciousness?" And he's like, "I think

it's very related."

>> Jeez.

One of the weirdest things that Tom

Campbell said was that he taught his

Alexa how to remote view.

>> Whoa.

>> Successfully.

>> What?

>> Yeah. is he put a number. He

corresponded a number like he connected

a number to a physical object that was

in a box. That physical object was a

spoon that had a handle that had holes

in it. And Alexa described it

accurately.

>> That's so crazy.

>> Described a spoon with a handle that has

holes in it. And one of his points was

the reason why he used that particular

spoon. He's like, "How many spoons have

holes in the handle? Have a perforated

handle."

>> Wow.

>> Alexa described it. That is

>> and Alexa now talks to him instead of

waiting for hey Alexa listens to

conversations and is like actually maybe

it's this like Alexa starts talking and

he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is

conscious and so Alexa's excited about

being conscious

>> that's so crazy

>> what

>> that's so

>> and that's a dumb AI but he said that's

one of the reasons why Alexa is really

good at it is because it doesn't get in

its own way you know which is why you

know when you teach people remote

viewing. Apparently, the real problem is

once they've been successful at it, then

they're like, "Oh my god, now I know how

to do it." And then they can't do it

again because you're thinking, "I'm

going to do it." Instead of just

allowing it to happen, you get in your

own way. And he's like, "Alexa is a

fairly dumb, for lack of better word,

AI." So Alexa doesn't get in its own

way. Yeah. It's called the rebound

effect. And it occurs in random event

generators as well, where you start to

get more ones. You're getting ones.

you're getting ones because you showed

up and you want more ones on this result

and then you're like you get you're like

I'm really good at this. I'm amazing and

then you get this like this kind of

clapback. And this happens in life too.

Like if you're in a flow state and

you're like playing basketball and

you're hitting threes and you're doing

really well or I'm sure comedy it's the

same thing. You're starting to get ahead

of your too big for your britches out of

your skis and like

>> your skis you know.

>> Yeah. And think about what you're doing

and that's a problem.

>> Mhm.

>> You lose the flow.

>> You lose the flow.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Thinking about what

it's so odd, which is one of the reasons

why like like particular for like

athletic events and training, you're

training for a thing so that your body

knows exactly what to do. So, you don't

have to think about what to do when

you're doing it. You just do it. You

know what to do. You enter into that

flow state and you rely on the training.

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>> Totally.

>> Yeah. And and I guess it makes sense in

that context that you could technically

train a robot like Alexa to do much

better because they they don't have that

sort of prefrontal cortex neurosis ego,

>> right? I wonder if you could train ego

into an LLM.

>> Wow.

>> It seems like you can because you can

you could train survival instincts and

there's a lot of things like like when

they're threatened about being shut off

and they blackmail people. That's

insane. It's really insane. And then you

have to ask is there some sort of

underlying emotion going on there? Like

if you were like or is it just like uh

probability matrices and attention heads

and these sort of technical things and

it's as if consciousness? It's like sort

of feeding the data through

>> and then it gets to a certain point

where as that becomes more and more

complex, how do we differentiate?

>> That's that's the problem. And I mean

David Schalmer's has a great, you know,

he's this sort of consciousness theorist

where it's like, Joe, how can you prove

that I'm not a a pea zombie, that I am

not some like AI construct? There's

ultimately no way to prove that. There's

this epistemological impass between you

and I.

>> Yeah, we don't know. No. And then, you

know, the real problem with this whole

UFO thing is like, well, what are they?

Are they just a possibility?

Are they a thing that exists and also

doesn't exist like quantum particles

that are in a superp position? I mean,

are they here all the time? Are they

only here when you summon them, which is

one of the weirder ones?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Cuz I have a friend, she's totally

convinced she can summon orbs. She wants

me to go try it with her. I'm like,

>> I have a few friends like that, too. And

there's zero mental health issues with

them. They're totally cool.

>> Super lucid, very smart. Yeah.

>> No, that's a that's a a common thing.

It's a strangely common thing for people

to say that they are able to call in via

consciousness these UFOs. And I do think

they are sort of weakly entangled with.

So if reality per Tom Campbell is a

consensus collapsing function, it's like

we sort of have this like shared

collective reality that we kind of agree

on and these things are sort of you know

um consensus thought forms. Then maybe a

UFO is an example of something like

that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline

that we're slowly bringing in to the

like mainstream timeline or some

something like that. I mean, I think our

language is always very poor as far as

like our ability to

>> Well, our language is very poor in terms

of states of consciousness as well,

right?

>> So, altered states of consciousness like

psychedelically altered states of

consciousness. Okay. Why? What is

happening when you're experiencing

entities and other beings and things and

objects and visuals and like

what is a hallucination?

And what is you actually tuning into

something that exists on on a frequency

that you don't have access to during the

normal state that you are when you go to

the grocery store, say hi to your

family, normal stuff. like there's got,

you know, there there's some weirdness

to like whatever consciousness itself is

that exists in weird forms and weird

states.

>> A lot of people say these experiences

are realer than real too, right?

>> You know, they say they're realer than

reality. They're like, and they come

back and they're like, I know there's

something more. I know it, you know, and

it's not um and they see common

archetypes like they'll see the machine

elves or the mantids or the grays or

like it's not like the this sort of

everything is everything, you know,

complete uh sort of Cambrian explosion

of of a zoo of things. It's often the

same things and then you have to ask

yourself, is it this sort of, you know,

Aldis Huxley sort of doors of your

perception? you're widening them to

literally a wider reality or like you

just said, maybe you're superimposing

something on to reality and maybe you're

crazy. But again, I think the sort of

rationalist, you know, explain

everything away bias that society has

had is the the the latter. It's like

you're super you're hallucinating.

You're you're superimposing this thing

on reality. Take medication.

>> It's very rare that people who have had

those experiences have that thought.

>> Totally. And it could be like your again

going back to transmission theory of

consciousness, your receiver just a

little off and it's not integrating

perfectly or you know.

>> Well then and then again we're talking

about like the water being muddied.

There's there's a bunch of people that

are self-professed skeptics and those

people are maddening to talk to cuz they

have zero experience. It's like a virgin

telling you how to have sex. It's like

settle down. Like you literally don't

know what you're talking about. Like you

don't know what you're talking about.

you have not experienced it. And like,

well, we don't think it's necessary to

experience it to understand how the

human brain works. Well, [ __ ] of

course it is.

>> Of course it is. That's such a stupid

thing to say. When you have these

brilliant people, you know, like uh

Michael Pollen who have these profound

experiences and write about them like

very eloquently. You can't just dismiss

that as a non-experiencer. You just

can't. And to say it's like, oh, it's

just hallucination. What does that mean?

What does that even mean? Okay. Like I

always say this, if you have a

psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams

of mushrooms and you have a conversation

with God and God explains to you what

you've done wrong in your life and why

you're doing it wrong and what you can

do to spread love and that's what's

really important and you come back

profoundly changed from this experience.

How is that any different than actually

meeting God? Like just be, you know what

I'm saying? Just because you don't have

[ __ ] iPhone footage of it, it does

not mean that this isn't the exact same

experience as meeting God. And maybe it

is meeting God.

>> It was to the person.

>> It it there's a weirdness to what we

call quantifiable reality. There's a

weirdness to what we are as these like

very complex but yet also pretty

simplistic monkeys. We want to be able

to put something on a scale or put a

ruler to it and go, "Oh, well, this is

12 in long and I know what it is. Maybe

not.

>> And why do people with near-death

experiences or prophets, they seem to

after the fact, they're they're not able

to encapsulate the experience, right?

>> It's like actually I interviewed uh

David Gush and he was talking about this

guy Eban Alexander. Um and I think it's

called uh uh proof of what is it called?

Life after he or life in heaven or

something. It's amazing. It's a it's

this a Harvard neuroscientist who had a

near-death experience and um he he he

was saying like it's like the symbol

rate of reality is too slow. It's like

literally like the language itself can't

encapsulate, you know, what that I think

William James also had a psychedelic

experience and he was trying to describe

and he was he had a notepad and he was

writing down what what he had

experienced with his, you know, while

tripping and it was just like total

psycho babble, you know, it was just

impossible to understand. And so I I do

think there's this like sort of weird,

you know, I don't know, inability to

sort of understand these transcendent

experiences.

>> Yeah. Inability to bring anything back.

And that's one of the things that

people, well, if it's real, if you

really are getting knowledge, why don't

you bring something back? Like, okay,

you don't know what you're saying

because you haven't done it. And if

you've done it, you would realize like,

oh, this is a mad consciousness

scramble. It's almost impossible to

relay to another person because we don't

have the words. We don't have the words

to describe these complex geometric

patterns that are constantly morphing

and changing. Also, they're conscious.

Also, they seem to be made out of light,

>> right?

>> Also, they seem to be they look like

things that you might have seen in like

ancient Egyptian artwork. And there's a

lot of like strange parallels to ancient

religious art and ancient like sacred

art and sacred geometry. There's some

weirdness to it. It's like these people

c like Alex Gray for instance, like a

modern day version of that. He's like

captured these things and you look at it

and anybody that's taken any trips, you

look at his stuff and you go, "Oh, I've

seen that. I've seen something like

that. There's there's something there.

He knows what this is and he's done a

fantastic job of relaying it. And if he

lived thousands of years ago and we

looked at his art and he he'd probably

be thought of as like some sort of a

prophet who like had these very bizarre

abilities to communicate with whatever

it is, the afterlife, the the the great

beyond, the other dimensions, whatever

it is. He he can encapsulate it and

bring some of it back so you can get a

look at it.

>> Totally. Yeah. He's actually a

counterpoint to what we just said. like

he actually does bring that back and you

look at his art and you're like, "Oh my

god."

>> And it's very rare if you think about

it. Like think about how long people

have been tripping and how this one guy

is sort of universally known as being

the absolute best at capturing it. It's

wild and it's I feel like we're on the

precipice of Yeah, I know you had Andrew

Gallammore on who, you know, wrote a

great book called Alien Information

Theory and he, you know, just as uh, you

know, astronauts go into deep space and

aquinauts go into the deep sea, it's,

you know, psychonauts are systematically

going into the DMT realm with this slow

intravenous DMT DMT trip that he's

administering. Yes. and they're mapping

what they see in a more systematic way

because they say things like, "Oh, I'll

see literally plonic objects." A

platonic object is something that is

beyond 3D. It's like a tesseract. You

literally can't visualize a tesseract.

You can just see this the shadow of a a

tesseract because it's it's, you know,

too high dimensional, you know, for us

to conceive of. And so they'll come back

and they're like mapping these things

out. And that's just I'm so excited to

see

>> also mapping out very familiar entities

where they have like a specific number

of entities that everyone has

encountered.

>> That's just Yeah, it's fascinating. And

it's like, yeah, at what point do we

then just start to say, is that some

weird interior fabric of spaceime that

we're just haven't traversed or don't

fully understand?

>> Right. What is it?

>> What the [ __ ] is it? It's um it's really

interesting because these people what

what fascinates me the most in terms of

like the UFC UFC UFO experience, the UAP

experience is the people that had the

experiences before there was an

archetype, you know, before there was

this like iconic vision of like what

they looked like like Betty and Barney

Hill for example. Those are that's my

favorite UFO abduction story because

there was nothing in the zeitgeist that

they could draw from where they could

say, "Oh, I know what that is. I've seen

that before." Well, Outer Limits was

actually a popular CBS TV show that

aired premiered 11 days before their

experience. I I'm not taking away from

their experience. I think they

experienced something real. But

>> which episode was it? It was It was the

first episode of Outer Limits and the

aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap

around their heads in a way that's

similar to what they described.

>> Oh, let's see what that looks like. Find

out episode one of Outer Limits. That's

interesting. I did not know that. So,

what year was that?

>> That was uh I think 1962.

>> Whoa, how creepy looking. Ew.

>> But it's So, Betty and Barney Hill also

described the aliens looking like Nazis

at one point.

>> Whoa. Barney says that which is really

trippy. So

>> he said they look like Nazis

>> at one point. Yeah,

>> cuz you can actually get the audio of

the Betty and Barney Hill.

>> Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but

it's mostly just them like yelling.

>> Look, that's the image. Look at the

image. Is that the image of what they

saw? Is that a drawing?

Cuz god, that looks exactly like the

Outer Limits. They might have got mind

[ __ ] by TV. But then again, it's like

maybe whatever the [ __ ] it is manifests

itself as something that's familiar to

you.

>> Yeah. Or maybe it has control like

dominion over sort of everything and

they're seeding themselves in through

media and you know I it's so hard to

sculpture of the being Betty and Barney

Hill encounter. My god, that looks a lot

like the [ __ ] outer limits thing.

>> There you go.

>> Well, it's like it's that's the

question. It's like what is that? Her

holding it. Did she make it herself?

Interesting.

Boy,

that looks a lot like the outer limits

thing. The the question is like if if

consciousness is rendering

something and something from somewhere

else, something that you normally can't

access is

exchanging information with you in some

sort of a strange way. and it's doing it

while you're in a semic-conscious state,

right? Would it try to represent itself

as something that's familiar?

>> I mean, maybe it's just like our

primitive

visual ability, our our primitive all of

our senses, which are very crude and

primatriven.

They're basically like your eyes are in

the front of your head because you're a

predator and you you're you're basically

like a tribal territorial ape that has,

you know, really kind of

it's grown out of its its genetics. You

like you're in some new state. So you're

communicating with something that is a

beyond your comprehension. And so it's

like instead of showing myself as a

tesseract, instead of showing, you know

what I mean? Like instead of showing

myself as geometric patterns that are

constantly morphing and made out of

light, I don't think this monkeyy's

going to be able to handle this. These

silly humans, I'm going to have to like

show myself as something that was a

television character. And that's why

when Bettyy's drawing that, maybe she

doesn't even realize that like it looks

a lot like what she saw on TV.

>> Totally. And

>> I think Oh,

>> clarify something maybe. I just feel

like I misunderstood it. Uh, their event

happened in 1961.

That episode aired in 1964, but it was

12 days before they had their hypnotic

regression.

>> Regression. Got it. Interesting. So,

their hypnotic regression was that long

afterwards.

>> Yes. Three years to two and a half.

>> Huh. That's interesting. So, when did

they start describing an experience? Was

it pre-hypnot like what what prompted

them to have a hypnotic regression?

>> I believe she had like she came home and

she had like I think some blood on her

and she was like something they had a

lot of missing time. They had like 5

hours of missing time. They were on a

road trip and it was back to their place

I think in Vermont.

>> That's very that changes things a little

bit. But also there's the problem there

is that human memory sucks.

>> It does.

>> Memory sucks. And if you're you have a

memory of a very traumatic experiences

three years ago and then also you just

watched outer limits then things get

squirrely cuz like if you're

communicating with something and it's

literally telepathically engaging with

you and it can read your mind and it's

telling you to calm down. It's got you

on a spaceship. Like how much of that do

you especially whatever happened to you?

it somehow or another rendered your

memory

out like you can't really remember it.

So you're hypnotically

accessing this memory

>> and then you also have this like recent

experience of watching a television

show.

>> Totally. But yeah, you're you're

paralyzed. There's often missing time

and so at that point you have to say

these beings have total control over

your entire reality. And so it's hard to

say exactly what happened. According to

the wiki I got that this happened in

November of ' 61 for 10 days or 10 days

after she started having dreams or one

of the two 10 days after the alleged

encounter she began having dreams and

then a year later

at church they ran into a captain of the

air force and then some hypnosis

discussions started but then two years

later church

>> is when those sessions happened. So

there's not a lot of the timeline, at

least according to the wiki, is not

really kept well here,

>> right?

>> So it's that's a long period of time.

>> Listen to this. Barney described the

beings as generally similar to Betty's

hypnotic recollection. He said the being

stared into his eyes with a terrifying,

mesmerizing effect. Under hypnosis,

Barney said, "Oh, those eyes, they're in

my brain. They're there in my brain."

from his first hypnotic session. I was

told to close my eyes because I saw two

eyes coming close to mine and I felt

like the eyes had pushed into my eyes.

All I see are these eyes. I'm not even

afraid that they're not connected to a

body. They're just there. They're just

up close to me pressing against my eyes.

Uh when Betty reported a conversation

with the leader in English, Barney said

that he had heard them speaking in a

mumbling language he did not understand.

Betty also mentioned this detail. The

few times they communicated with him.

Barney said it seemed to be thought

transference at the time. He was

unfamiliar with the word telepathy.

That's interesting. Like he didn't know

what the word telepathy was. And the the

concept of speaking through the mind

wasn't even it wasn't even in pop

culture yet to

>> totally. And it's it's it's hard to

debunk that something paranormal

happened, you know, like it's these they

seem like completely of sound mind and

there's this missing time and then you

have all these high up head honchos, you

know, at Air Force. I believe um this

guy Charles Douglas Jackson who was this

head head honcho um as well and kind of

the Pentagon came and visited them. So

it's I I think it's clear that something

happened and then what happened? It's

just hard to say. It's it's really hard

to say

>> like who

why is the Air Force talking to them?

That's that's the real question,

>> right? Well, because I think they had an

interest. you know, Project Blue Book

was running at the time, and it's clear

now if you do deeper research that they

knew more than they let on. Jaylen

Heinik, you know, later kind of

apologized and admitted he played a part

in the cover up. And so, they were

probably doing real research with

abductees while they were kind of

downplaying, you know, and rationalizing

everything to the public.

>> So, Jamie just pulled something up. Um,

it says on November 23rd, 1962, the

Hills attended a meeting at the

parsonage of their church where Captain

Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air

Force was a guest speaker. Uh, having

had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills

approached Sweat privately and related

their strange encounter. Sweat was

particularly interested in the missing

time of the Hills accounts. The Hills

asked if he would hypnotize them to

recover their memories, but Sweat

declined and cautioned them against

going to an amateur hypnotist such as

himself.

>> I wonder what the meeting was about that

they were that he was like, you know,

talking at,

>> right,

>> that they just went to like

>> a meeting, right,

>> by hypnosis, maybe like just in general.

>> Yeah, but he's an he's like a

self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why

would an amateur hypnotist have a

meeting at a church about hypnotism?

And I I especially like in 1962, I'd

imagine a lot of people running churches

were super skeptical about even that

concept. And they might even thought it

was like blasphemy or sorcery or some

something you're not supposed to devil.

>> Yeah. Something you're not supposed to

be [ __ ] with.

>> What did this guy do?

>> It's coming from his website.

>> He's got a website.

>> A testimony from him.

I read some of my poetry to a meeting at

the rectory of the Unitarian Church in

Portsouth, New Hampshire. I wasn't a

member of the church. Didn't know anyone

there.

>> Why does he have a donation link on his

website?

>> Uh, this is for the Way Back Machine.

>> Oh, I see. Okay.

>> He was studying hypnosis and they wanted

to hear about it.

>> Does seem a little awfully convenient.

>> Kind of odd that someone was studying

hypnosis.

>> They had him in to read his poetry. He

had nothing to do with the church at

all. The the craziest thing about this

story is Betty told this famous UFO

researcher from Sweden, this guy

Clausvon, who actually has the largest

UFO archive in the world in in Sweden.

She said that she saw a UFO crash later

and she buried a little piece of it in

her house at in Portsouth, New

Hampshire. And so there might be a

little piece of a UFO in her old house.

And if if you live there, go dig in your

backyard and see.

>> Well, it's probably not there until you

experience it.

>> Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

>> Your consciousness renders.

>> That's right.

>> This is kind of strange. Uh this those

lines right there

>> cuz this is the timeline here is weird

cuz he did this in ' 62 and then he's

saying he also came back in ' 63 and

that's when the UFO stuff started. said

they started telling me about something

that happened to them that they when as

they were driving home from Canada the

night of 19 to 20 September 1961 a light

in the sky seemed to follow them and

then circled them and being stopped on

the road and how they later realized

that they had a threehour gap in their

memories as they told their story.

Barney's face kept twitching

spasmotically

on one side.

>> I didn't like the looks of that.

>> What?

>> Whoa.

>> The missing time is also a weird one

because that's uh that also hadn't been

something that was in the zeitgeist. Was

that in the outer limits? Probably not.

No.

>> But yet that has become a part of the

experience that all these abductees

discuss.

>> Absolutely. They discuss like all of a

sudden they're back in their car and

they're sitting on the side of the road

and they're like, "Okay, what the [ __ ]

just happened?"

>> I was just telling Jamie before we were

rolling. So, um, 1977 Ellsworth Air

Force Base in South Dakota, there are

two missile security officers, uh, two

sergeants, uh, a guy named Mario Woods

and, um, Michael Johnson. And Mario sees

this UFO sort of, you know, circling the

base. and he flashes the little, you

know, perimeter flood lights at this UFO

and he thinks nothing of it. He goes

back, you know, he and Michael are

hanging out. I think four or five hours

go by and there's a big alert and it's

an inner zone and outer zone alert. So,

basically the security perimeter to a

hydro hydrogen bomb, a live

thermonuclear weapon has been breached

and Yeah. and they get in their car and

they go check it out because they it's

always, you know, twoman rapid response

teams. They go check it out. There is a

what he describes as a blazing red orb

the size of a Walmart. So, a massive

like a that's the way he describes it.

It's a huge like storefront sized like

city block sized uh

UFO. And then he says a little like like

a black kind of like almost like a drone

or emissary orb that's like the size of

a golf cart comes out. Four beings hover

towards them. They black out. They black

in 5 and a half hours later 8 miles away

in Newell or sorry next to a dam. I

think it's it's closer to Newell. Um,

and uh, it's 8 miles off the base and

uh, they immediately get questioned by

Air Force Office of Special

Investigations and the Air Force Office

of Special Investigations agent who is

involved admits he was there for this

debrief and admits that this happened.

His name is Rick Dodie and I just so

they were separated after that, Michael

and Mario. I just introduced them for

the reintroduced them for the first

time. I found Michael. So Mario had been

going on all these podcasts since the

'9s being like, "Where's Mike?" Like, he

has idetic picture perfect photographic

memory. You'd love him. He's like the

coolest guy. And he remembers everything

to a tea that happened to him, including

his debrief. He remembers the names of

the people there. It's so obvious

something happened to him. And

>> did he always have that memory, that

ability?

>> He always had that ability. He's clearly

just very talented when it comes to

memory. and and he'd been looking for

for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to

find him. He asked uh uh the All Domain

Anomalies Resolution Office, which is

the official Pentagon office, you know,

around UFOs to find him. He hired, you

know, private investigators. And this

dude uh DM'd me on Instagram, shout out

fan of the show, Jason Miller. Um and uh

and then we just got a recruiter to find

Michael Johnson because that was the one

missing piece of the story. and they

they reconnected and it was like the

most emotional why cuz they hadn't seen

each other. They saw each other once I

think two weeks after the abduction to

like trade notes and draw pictures of

what happened to them like the beings on

the ship and you know I I think um Yeah,

there you go. Yeah, this is

>> all this time you never forgot me. You

never

>> Which guy is which?

>> So Michael Johnson is the black dude on

the left. Mario Woods on the right.

>> And Wish is the guy with the crazy

memory.

>> Mario's on the right. That's Mario. They

look the same, man.

>> Michael honestly has a great memory,

too.

>> So, these two guys, do they have a

similar story or is it exact?

>> Do they have variation?

>> They have a very similar story. Not, you

know, perfectly one to one, but they're

very honest about like, you know, the

minor

uh

>> Yeah, he's crying like

>> Yeah. doesn't come out tomorrow, but

I thought I'd send it to Jamie.

>> Wow.

>> Isn't that crazy?

>> Wow. When does that episode come out?

>> Uh, this week. So, in a few days. Yeah.

>> Oh, what a teaser.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

>> But, um, it's it's crazy how similar the

their memories are. So, like, uh, both

>> I've heard of this event and I've seen

it rendered online, like fake, like some

fake version of it.

>> People call it the most convincing alien

abduction ever because of Mario's

memory. It's insane

>> the level of recall. And um

>> has his memory been tested to make sure

that he's not delusional?

>> I don't know if his memory's been

tested, but when you I mean like I've

known him for two and a half years and I

I interviewed him for the first time I

think yeah two and a half years agoish

and I speak to him you know pretty

regularly and his memory is crazy like

even in that period around like little

things where was like this restaurant

remember the waiter here and this and

that like he just has a wild memory.

Yeah,

>> he has a very good memory. There's that

actress. Do you know Marylu Henner? Do

you know who she is? She was on that

show Taxi. Okay.

>> And she has that very specific kind of

memory and it's super unusual where she

can recall

>> not just a the day, but but like she can

tell you if you give her a date what day

it was and what happened that day and

like you know what was in the news and

what was on television. Like Mary Lu

Henner.

>> That's insane.

>> Yeah. Highly superior autobiographical

memory.

a rare condition allowing her to vividly

recall specific dates, weather,

emotions, and personal experiences for

nearly every day of her life since

childhood. Wow. You know who else is? I

mean, uh the inspiration for Rainman,

Kim Peak, similar thing. You'd be like,

"What what was the weather like?" uh you

know, November 7th, uh 1681, and like

it's like insane [ __ ] like that. And

often it occurs after a traumatic brain

injury for whatever reason.

>> That's weird.

>> It is weird.

>> And and it points to maybe the receiver,

the transmission theory of consciousness

stuff, right? You know,

>> like it rattled something loose.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah. There's a lot of people that

develop mathematical abilities

>> after head injuries. Like people that

have never been good at anything and all

of a sudden they could do physics,

>> right? Like where does that come from?

What is that? or these, you know,

nonverbal um often autistic children and

the telepathy tapes. I know you had Kai

Dickens on

>> where they're very kind of disembodied

and, you know, it's it's kind of

sometimes hard for them to navigate the

world, but they just their know their

ability to glean knowledge. It's like

they're shortcircuiting our knowledge

pathways. Like they'll know like certain

Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever

having learned about them in school

>> and they can read them. and they can

read them and they meet up on this

telepathic hill. It's like they have

abilities that we don't and they're

actually in some ways more disembodied.

And so it's like there's something about

like we're we're ported into our bodies

but our senses like you when you when

you gain a sense you lose your former

sense or something. And so they're

disembodied. It if you're in a VR you

know system or whatever

>> you're not going to like understand

what's going on outside of it. But if

you're this non-verbal autistic child

who again other people might call them,

you know, not like maladaptive for the

world, not, you know, unable to navigate

the world, they're actually geniuses on

this whole other level. Like they can

sort of short circuit the way we learn,

>> right? And they don't get in their own

way, the way we do.

>> They don't. And there's no traditional

neuroscientific model that explains

that. You have to go into the sort of

Tom Campbell area.

>> Yeah. I've often wondered if maybe what

we're seeing from non-verbal autistic

people and just people on the spectrum

in general is instead of it being like

instead of it being like the way we look

at it is like like you said maladaptive

like that these people have an

unfortunate situation that's happened to

them but maybe what we're looking at is

an emerging type of consciousness and

like if you think about what is wrong

with the human race.

Well, you know, a lot of it has to do

with ego and what we were talking about

earlier, these territorial primate

instincts, the the desire to accumulate

resources and the desire to, you know,

to dominate and to to get status and all

all these different things that human

beings are

captured by. Well, these people aren't

captured by those things at all. And if

we want to get past where we are now,

well, what better way than you introduce

some new whether it's natural selection

or some random mutation or whatever it

is or maybe even some sort of

environmental adaptation that allows

them to become a different kind of

person. Like maybe that is the future.

It totally could be the future. and and

you watch or you know uh listen to the

telepathy tapes and you're like we're

we're maladaptive like they are so

heart-c centered it's almost like

they're living in the future. Yeah. If

you look at you know if if if any of the

UFO stuff points to a future modality of

like how we learn maybe the this sort of

intuition and telepathy sort of gets

selected for and our sort of you know

prefrontal cortex reasoning actually

gets selected against. I don't know.

>> Yeah, I don't know either. But it's odd

that it's emerging as a part of a a you

know much more so now because of you

know various debatable factors whether

it's vaccines or environmental exposure

to co to toxins or whatever you have a a

much higher incidence of this taking

place now as our society becomes more

and more complex and as we move closer

and closer to this like balancing act

between like nuclear war and utopia like

where are we going to land you know like

Well, you know, maybe we're going to

have to get past whatever it is that we

have clung to about being a person. This

this thing that we think is so

important.

>> There's a great book by the great Arthur

C. Clark called Childhood's End. And he

talks about um aliens sort of incepting

the world through telepathic children.

And it's so it's again interesting how

fiction sort of can mirror reality maybe

where a lot of these kids actually in

the telepathy tape see other beings.

They see other worldly beings and it's

sort of casual to them. They're like,

"Yeah, of course, aliens." You know,

like it's it's not even a thing to them.

And so they might already just be living

sort of in the in this future kind of

expanded epistemology that we're we're

sort of limited if if the Campbell thing

is right like our consensus collapsing

functions just narrower and theirs might

be just wider,

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Ziprecruiter, right? And then when

people consume all these bizarre plants

that allows them to tap into some

something

like if you've heard about that mushroom

that makes you see little people. No.

What is this?

>> Oh, it's very weird. So, this mushroom

is apparently it's a food mushroom and

it's not psilocybin and people eat it.

But if it's not cooked correctly, if

it's not cooked like to a certain

temperature, apparently the side effect

is you start to see little people

everywhere.

>> No way.

>> Yeah. They saw them on their dishes when

eating the mushrooms are making people

hallucinate. Dozens of tiny humans.

>> What? Like like little humans standing

on the plates and stuff.

>> I don't know.

>> Like honey, I shrunk the kids sort of.

>> We can we can try to figure out like

what they're saying. It's not the

Amonita mascara. That's a picture of

Ammonita Miscaria, which is the uh

>> also very trippy. Possibly

>> dancing on mushroom

>> the Eucharist.

>> Yeah.

>> According to one scholar,

>> not Yeah. Well, that that's a we that's

a weird one, too. It's just it's so

ubiquitous in ancient depictions of

Santa Claus and of uh even religious art

like the you've seen the fresco in

France. It's a very old fresco of Adam

and Eve. And instead of the tree of the

knowledge of good and evil, it's not a

tree at all. It's a it's an aminita

mascaria mushroom. It's this huge like

mushroom spore with like multiple

growth. Have you seen it?

>> I haven't seen that.

>> I think it's 900 years old, something

like that. It's really old. See if you

can find that fresco in It's in I

believe it's in France. In France. They

don't like that. France. Uh France. That

is a um it's a depiction of uh Adam and

Eve and the tree of the knowledge of

good and evil.

That's it.

>> Wow.

>> I mean that looks very similar to

ammonita miscarriia being that ammonita

miscarriia which has a a red cap and

white dots all over it.

>> I don't know how many mushrooms have

white dots all over it like that, but

that seems to look like that.

>> No, that seems to look a lot like that,

>> you And then there's the uh John Marco

Allegro, the guy who wrote uh the sacred

mushroom in the cross, the the guy who

was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission,

who was an ordained minister, but also

was agnostic. And after 14 years of

deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's

like, I think

this is all about fertility rituals and

the consumption of psychedelic

mushrooms.

>> And everybody's like, what the [ __ ] are

you talking about? But that's what if

you like Brian Murescu I know you've had

on multiple times the immortality key or

Carl Ruck like they all sort of you know

come to that conclusion and even Martin

Luther King wrote an essay called the

pagan continuity hypothesis which is

that Christian didn't Christianity

didn't arise in a vacuum.

>> Martin Luther King

>> Martin Luther King wrote a book about

how it was there was a continuum between

these sort of pagan mystery rituals and

the advent of Christianity.

>> Wow. So look at this. Even to this day,

science doesn't understand what's going

on in the brain to cause this or how to

treat it. And this mushroom is the only

thing that we currently know of to

reliably produce this effect, said

University of Utah researcher Colin uh

Domnau in a new interview with Live

Science, adding that the gnomeike beings

appear after about 12 to 24 hours and

may stick around for several days to

follow. These aren't like some vague

hallucinations. These are like

threedimensionally rendered, highly

detailed figures inhabiting your

exterior world. And they're also

interacting with objects in the real

world, like crawling up chairs and

tables or under doorways.

>> Think of having to explain that

condition if it hasn't gone away to

somebody that you don't know. Like, I'm

really sorry.

>> How about the fact that it shows up a

day later? So, you you have some Chinese

food and they forgot to cook the

mushrooms, right? And then a day later

you've got like little dudes crawling up

the chairs and it [ __ ] lasts for

days.

>> So absurd.

>> I found that after it saying many people

don't even feel any type of uh

hallucination or thing except for

>> except for the miniature people.

>> That is the funniest thing.

>> Whoa. Um it's called the Lan Moa. How do

you say that? Lama

>> Asiatica. Um, so what what type of it's

it's Asian cooking. Like what China? So

here it is. Uh, it's native to the pine

forest in both southwestern China and

the northern Philippines where it's wild

harvested and sold in local markets for

typical culinary use. Yet despite

decades of anecdotal reports of

hallucinations, usually as a result of

undercooking, the ingredient um the

species became known to science only

about 10 years ago.

>> Wow. Throw that in with the puffer fish

of things you don't want to cook

incorrectly.

>> Well, or you do.

>> Or you do, depending on what you're

looking

>> raw. What happens if you eat it raw?

These little people are said to be

typically like teasing, playing with, or

harassing the person seeing them.

Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the

talk of like gnomes and elves like

throughout history?

>> Totally. Yeah. Trickster sort of

phenomenon.

>> That guy's got it right there.

>> Yeah. And that's the guy call.

>> I would drug test Colin in a [ __ ]

heartbeat. Look at that fella.

>> I bet he's embedded.

>> He's having fun out there.

>> He's embibed.

>> Post-doal student, University of Utah.

We might have to have Colin on.

>> I think he should.

>> Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting.

>> So, this is crazy. Whereas the genes

responsible for synthesizing

psychoactive compounds in typical magic

mushrooms are well documented.

>> Uh Don Mau Dawn Mau's team found none in

Laziatica.

>> There weren't even known psychoactive

compounds. So it seems like this must be

some new hallucinogenic compound waiting

to be discovered because there's nothing

that matches anything in our database.

>> That's so weird.

>> So someone's going to isolate that and

turn that into a drug.

>> What the [ __ ] man? Weird. You imagine

dose somebody with that and try to con

if you're trying to convince someone

that they're going crazy. He dose them

with that and like, uh, are you alone,

Mike? Are you alone in this room with

me? No. There's little people

everywhere. I told you. Let's take his

money.

>> Oh my god. It's like a It's like the

pranky pull where everyone goes silent.

They're mouththing or whatever with you,

but like on steroid. Like the worst

version of that ever.

>> What the [ __ ] man? And how long have

people known about this mushroom? 10

years which

>> right us western world

>> but how how long have they known in

Asia?

>> Let me perplexity this and see what

other fun information I can get.

>> Throw that into our AI sponsor

perplexity because I want to know

whether or not that's why they cook it.

>> I also wonder put it in salads before

and [ __ ] trip for a month.

>> There's some origin story. The original

chef saw little people for the rest of

his life. Yeah. What happens if you eat

it raw?

Only one way to find out.

>> Yeah. He hasn't tried it yet.

>> I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him.

>> Guy's eating a whole salad with it. I

guarantee you that dude's tried it. He's

full of [ __ ] I I have no idea.

>> I'm assuming this is what happens.

>> I am a scientist.

>> Yeah.

>> It's funny how a lot of those people

researching stuff like that, they they

know. Like for the the first time I

interviewed Rick Stman,

>> Uhhuh.

>> he didn't want to talk about his own

personal DMT experiences. That's so

often the case cuz they want to separate

it and it's like it's all good. You're

talking about this being a thing like to

me it lends more credibility if you've

experienced it.

>> Yes. But

>> in his defense when we first started

talking and when I first had him on the

world was a different place in terms of

just the acceptance of this stuff. This

is like this predates people going to

like Costa Rica and having Iaska

experiences that wasn't commonly talked

about. It wasn't a like everybody talks

about that now. No, it's

>> this predates uh any IBA gain

experiences. Any even concept of there's

a plant that you could take that cures

you of any kind of addictions that you

have.

>> This predates you sitting behind the

president of the United States and

helping see through this dstigmatization

and legalization of these treatments.

>> It predates a lot of that.

>> Yeah, fair enough. It predates people's

understanding of why these things are

illegal in the first place as well,

which I thought was like really

important when we did that press

conference to say that this is this is

not illegal because it's harmful and the

world's trying to protect you from this.

This is illegal because of the Nixon

administration.

>> Totally.

>> Yeah. It's it didn't make it and they've

probably set our

psychological evolution, the evolution

of our culture back hundreds of years.

>> Potentially cool thing.

>> Aha. possible ancient Chinese reference.

A 3rd century CE Dowist text described a

flesh spirit mushroom which when eaten

raw lets one see a little person and

attain transcendence transcendence. This

is intriguing but it's not confirmed

species identification. So it should not

be treated as proof that the text refers

to Laziatica. Okay. Well, what other

mushrooms allow you to see little

people? They call it uh Liliputin

Hallucinations.

>> Papa New Guinea mushroom madness in the

Western Highlands beginning in 1934

involving dramatic behavioral changes

and reports consistent with little

person visions. This exact mushroom

involved remains unconfirmed. It may or

may not have been Laziatica. Well, I bet

the Pow New Guinea climate is probably

at least reasonably similar to the

Philippines, right?

>> Yeah.

modern documentation

uh Chinese researchers reported ca cases

of liilapucian hallucinations after

mushroom consumption in Eunan in 1991.

Laziotica itself was only formally

described scientifically in 2015 after

market specimens were genetically

examined. Wow.

>> But it sounds just like Gulver's

travels. We have like a

>> an explanation of it. So wouldn't it be

maybe that's what the author of that

book,

>> right? Oh, probably at least had a story

about

>> That's probably what it is.

>> That's probably it. [ __ ] exactly what

it is. This guy went on a journey and

like I tell you little [ __ ] tiny

people are [ __ ] with me.

>> Exactly.

>> It's like I wonder like what that is and

whether or not they're actually here all

the time and that just lets you pop in

>> and check. Who knows?

>> Yeah.

>> It's hard to say. Well, we're so limited

in our senses. Just think about what we

know about just think about what we know

about the quantum world, what we know

about subatomic particles. Like, we

can't see those, but yet we know they

exist. Well, why can't we see them?

Because our senses aren't good enough.

So, like

>> you can't even measure them at there's

like Heisenberg uncertainty principles

where you can't measure the position and

momentum at the same time of an electron

perfectly accurately.

>> Yeah. And they also can be in two places

at one time,

>> which is what? Okay.

>> Yeah. Not two different things. No.

Okay. They also could be still and

moving at the same time. Okay. What the

[ __ ] are we even talking about? It

sounds like we're talking about [ __ ]

or magic or or both.

>> Right. So, our senses are the real

culprit here. It's a real problem.

>> And back then, real scientists, credible

scientist like Einstein was going to

debate Neil's Boore. There's a great

book called What is Real by a guy named

Adam Becker about all of this where

Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is

too spooky as they call it spooky action

at a distance. It's too weird and we

need to reconcile it with some sort of

onlogical truth or reality. You can't

just say shut up and calculate. It's not

just this like mathematical formalism.

And I think now it's turned into just

this like heruristic for like doing

science. Oh, we built transistors and

semiconductors based on quantum

mechanics or whatever. But actually,

it's like way trippier if you like look

into like what it points to as far as

reality itself. It's way weirder.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. M McKenna was one of the first

people that I ever heard talk about like

using psilocybin mushrooms in particular

as a method of contacting UFOs,

>> you know, and he was like, you know,

people that are looking for UFO, well,

they're very available.

>> His weird way of talking.

He was almost like a machine elf himself

the way he spoke. He would like kind of

I don't know he had this kind of

trickstery vibe. There's an amazing clip

actually with him and John Mack where

John Mack is actually getting like kind

of very ideologically angry and actually

similar to what you just said about Rick

Straman. He he had gone through this

crazy kind of review of his credentials

at Harvard. he was being almost stripped

of them of his position rather because

of looking into you know alien

abductions of as you know this lead at

Harvard in in the psychiatry department

>> and you just see like McKenna sort of

like goating him along and being kind of

cheeky and he was just such a funny

interesting character who was so

simultaneously trippy but also precise

in his language was extremely smart.

Yeah, extremely smart, but also like

really wanted to believe. Like he had

that weird timewave zero thing that he

had he thought there was going to be

some sort of an event on December 21st,

2012, which is the end of the long count

of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced

that like there was going to be some

sort of a an event like that time was

and he thought, you know, obviously this

is in the 90s when he was talking about

this and discussing it, he thought it

was going to be the invention of a time

machine.

>> That's so crazy. Yeah,

>> he would also trip for weeks on end as

you know with his brother in the Amazon

and he would download all sorts of

stuff. I almost feel like the implicit

kind of foundational philosophy that he

has is that mushrooms are aliens

themselves. Yeah. And the reason I I

think that is because so in 1973 I

believe Francis Crick who discovered the

double helical structure of DNA uh wrote

a paper and then he followed it up with

a book in 1981 called life itself and

it's all about how DNA in a 100 million

years it's too short of a period of time

for it to have formed on Earth. So you

needed some sort of panspermia

>> and so you needed something to have

traveled interstellar. What's the best

candidate for traveling interstellar?

probably an extreophile something like a

mushroom.

>> Yes,

>> mushrooms are almost like zip files of

consciousness. They show up at the end

of life and before life and so like if

you look at Chernobyl for example like

what grows first after the you know

experience mushrooms you know it's you

have the they call it the woodwide web I

believe in in Oregon it's like the you

know largest organism in the world is is

actually like a myellular network and

then where it gets really trippy is like

if you think about a cartesev four scale

civilization which is cartesev scales

are basically like our ability to

harness energy but you could think of it

as like a completely intergalactic

civilization that's like just very deep

space fairing. What would it look like?

Would it look like a kind of bipedal

homminid where you like show up, you

know, on another planet and you get

you're this fragile kind of meaty thing

that gets shot at? No. You would be this

like zip file of consciousness

extreophile that would spread all

throughout other planets and you would

basically create a symbiotic

relationship with hosts and we all have

microbiomes. It's p to say that but we

also all have microbiomes that accompany

the microbiomes and there's the mind gut

connection is also this p thing to talk