Hello listeners, welcome to another

episode of Geopolitical Cousins. First,

some housekeeping. I know you're all

waiting for the episodes with Peter

Zion. I am waiting for them too. Um, we

are waiting on an editor to finish. It

was a fourerson conversation in person

in a room. Um, the video editor that we

used for it has been traveling Nepal

doing another video project. I don't

want to bore you with the details. It is

imminently dropping. I was hoping it was

going to drop today. It's probably going

to drop early next week. We have not

forgotten about it. You can keep

emailing me if you want and be like,

"Where is the episode?" It's coming, I

promise. Uh, patience is a virtue. Bear

with me. And thank you. Thank you for

your patience. In the meantime, uh, we

decided to do a World Cup recap episode.

So, we brought back the BCA boys back on

the show. Um, and we talked about their

model and what went right, what didn't

go right. Talked about the geopolitics

of the World Cup, the things we liked,

the things we didn't like. Um, this is a

World Cup forward episode. If you don't

want to hear about the World Cup, I

mean, I think you should. I think we did

a really good job interweaving the

geopolitics and also not just talking

about soccer, but talking about how to

analyze things. Like ultimately, this is

a conversation about how to analyze and

predict soccer and understand what's

going on when you have all these

different variables and competition and

things like that. So, I think even if

you don't like soccer, it's interesting

from that point of view. But if you are

really just sick of soccer and you don't

want to do it, like this is an episode

to skip. But I would recommend you try

it out. We will be back with our normal

geopolitical programming. Well,

hopefully we're going to get those those

Peter episodes out early next week.

We've got another books episode uh

coming and cousin and I are going to

continue to push out content as we get

into the end of the summer. Um, that's

about all I got. Uh, there's a lot going

on in the world. Uh, take care of the

people that you love. Cheers. We will

see you out there.

And I I see despite the fact that I know

least about soccer among all of you, I'm

the only one wearing a jersey right now.

So, I got my England jersey on right now

because I don't know how many more times

I'm going to be able to use this thing.

Uh, but it's nice to be with you all.

Marco, do you want to start us off?

>> Yeah, I think uh I think the way that we

should uh kind of split this podcast um

is first and foremost, we have uh BCA's

uh brain trust here to explain what

happened with a model. Uh a little

refresher would be good. By the way,

let's not assume that all of our

listeners also listen to the first one.

So like maybe one of the three of you

can kind of give uh a sense of what the

model was focused on uh what went wrong

in the in the group stage, what went

right in the knockout stage and then I

think that will lead into discussion of

what was

bad about this World Cup and what was

good about this World Cup. So maybe we

can split into three. Everybody can give

their thoughts on sort of let's talk

quantitative research, let's talk trying

to predict sports uh which is really

difficult especially something like

soccer and then let's talk about the

negatives and then let's talk about the

positives. Um and I think uh you know

why are we talking about this on

geopolitical cousins by the way? Well,

first of all because it's fun. I mean

the World Cup is an incredible moment

every four years. Um the amount of

attention that the world puts on it is

really unique. Uh we have nothing like

it really. Even the Olympics doesn't

capture people's sort of imagination the

way that this does. Um and also I think

that there is a geopolitical component

to some of the things that happen at the

World Cup. But also I think what's

interesting to me is that you know Jacob

and I are not the most quantitative

people on the planet. Um, but I think

that there's real validity in trying

to adapt quantitative methods to what is

inherently unquantifiable, you know, and

I think that um it it's

if for anything else just because when

you fail and when the model fails,

that's when the truth kind of reveals

itself. you know, even though it's

qualitative, the quantitative method

ensures that you at least know precisely

what it was that didn't work out. All

right, so I'm going to hand over. By the

way, just as an intro, let's uh uh so

we've got uh two uh two guests who were

on I think like a month ago. So, Juan

Korea and Robert Temper. Juan uh uh does

global asset location at BCA research.

my colleague and friend uh he and I have

been co-owners of an uh JBL franchise in

uh basketball fantasy league for now

over 10 years. Uh he was my ringer, he

was my quant uh now he's a fullfledged

co-owner. Um and then Robert Temper is

the head of global fixed income at BC

Research. And then we also have uh

Jeremy Pelos who is the head of all

European research, all European

investment strategy at BCA. He could not

make this podcast a month ago and he's

here joining us as well. Uh he's also

French so he's the saddest. Um I mean

Robert I mean yeah like Robert's like

I'm sad too. I'm like no I mean yeah

Colombian sad too like you know. Um but

like you know the French should be the

saddest. I mean, you know, he had the

highest hopes and they were crushed. Um,

all right. So, who wants to kick us off

in terms of what was kind of in the

model real quick? Um, and what went

wrong in the knockout phases and and

then how did you guys fix it for sorry,

what went wrong in the group stage and

then what did you guys notice fix for

the knockout?

>> Yeah, I'm I'm happy to to get started.

So just as a quick reminder, the kind of

key input into the model is the player

rating data from the game FIFA. Um, and

we aggregate that data for every team in

various ways for attackers, midfield,

wingers, etc. Um, to basically get a

sense of how strong each national team

is. And then we also take into account a

couple of other variables such as kind

of experience measured by the number of

caps that that players have had or

something like age. Um which can be

either positive in a sense of experience

or a negative in a sense of declining

kind of fitness. Um and so based on that

we predict every game individually um

based on the difference between these

variables between the the teams that

play each other and then we can for the

group stage come up with an expected

number of points that that each team

gets and based on that we get um who

who's most likely to qualify and so the

group stage I think was average the

performance of of the model Um, we

obviously got most of the teams right

that advanced, but I mean when uh 32 out

of 48 teams advanced, that's kind of

what you what you would expect. Um,

obviously there were some big surprises.

Um, obviously probably the biggest one,

Cabo Verde. Um, but also not really

represented in in our models forecast

were South Africa or Australia, which

really outperformed. And then the big

disappointments were really Turkey um

the Czech Republic and and South Korea

um which didn't make it to to the next

round. And then um what we've did after

the group stage um is we did an update

because we've done this in the past but

especially this World Cup it was pretty

necessary because of the way that

qualification worked with um eight of

the best third place teams advancing. it

was really hard to know in advance what

kind of the tournament tree would look

like and so um we reran the model after

the the group stage based on the known

known matchups. Um and [snorts] so

that was I would argue a pretty

successful rerun and the model actually

did pretty well. We got the four

semi-finalists and the two matchups

correct. Um but that's then so up until

then it looked like uh France uh was on

its way to actually win the World Cup.

Um but that's where things kind of

derailed and I think we can get into

that in in a little bit. But the other

major thing that we changed um between

the group stage and the knockout stage

is we have a dummy variable for the

winner previous winner and we call that

the winner's curse cuz historically

um previous winners have done horrendous

at uh the following World Cups. But this

time around Argentina obviously did

pretty well. So they obviously did much

better than we expected in the group

stage. And so we decided um largely

because of one person uh they have done

very well in the group stage that the

goat variable trumps the winner's curse.

Um and I guess one could argue that

maybe there was more at play in the

knockout stages than just the goat

variable, but I guess we can get into

that as well. Um but yeah, in in at the

end of the day, I think the knockout

stage was still fairly successful. We

got um 26 out of 32 games correct. Um so

we're fairly happy with that. And I

actually just got a message today from a

client saying they finished second in

their internal uh kind of betting uh

World Cup game uh betting strategy uh

based using the model.

>> Oh, that's good. Okay. So like client

satisfied. By the way, for all the youth

who don't know what BCA is, it does not

predict sports for a living. [laughter]

Just to be clear, this is this is just

uh what I call an intellectual flex that

we do once every four years where we

showcase what we can do when we get

together and put our brains together.

Um, all right. So, just be clear, my my

presence here is to serve as the Jim

Kramer of soccer because I have at every

time we did a podcast, Marco, I

successfully picked the opposite of what

was going to happen. The best was when I

said, "Oh, yeah, France is going to

steamroll into the final." And of

course, like the episode came out after

France got defeated 2-0 by by Spain. So,

anything that I say on this podcast, I

have no fancy models. This is me just

going full gut, baby. I'm just going to

tell you exactly what I want, and you

should use me as your infers Kramer for

sports betting. That is my goal here to

be that wrong and entertaining. Booyah.

>> And that's why you're wearing England

jersey, right?

>> Exactly. I've adopted I've adopted

England to the chagrin of many. I was

actually reflecting on this. I uh this

is going to sound really lame. Um I I

started I sing my daughter like laabis

every night before she goes to sleep and

I just threw in a little God Save the

Queen when I got back from um from this

England match and now she's obsessed.

She will not let me sing anything other.

She wanted it the full orchestral

arrangement on the way to camp this

morning. Uh, so it's great that we still

live in a country that she can sing God

Save the Queen and not get taken to a

goolog or me taken to a goolog. But I

digress.

>> That's funny. That's that's a sign that

you're a geopolitical cousin because I

raised all my kids on just anthems.

That's that's all I did. That's that's

all I sang. Uh, multiple anthems which

makes it cool. Um, all right. So, one

question I have for you guys. Um, you

replaced, you know, the the winner's

curse with a goat variable.

That's interesting. It's almost like

replacing something top down secular,

you know, systemic with this individual

performance. Was it almost like a

capitulation to the very nature of

forecasting football? Because football

is not about one person. And does that

make what Messi did even that much more

extraordinary that not only did he get

drag this Argentina team which was

massively flawed to the finals but he

also made us reconsider our

methodological like foundation as a as

an entity as a firm.

>> Well so Marco I think part of that is

that but I would also highlight that

this actually the second time that the a

winner's curse actually fails. Um we had

the winner curs issue.

>> Yeah. Third time. Third time. So we had

the winner's curse um also in our last

model

>> and um you know assuming that France

wasn't going to do well and you know

they actually went to the final and you

know I think that's a discussion that we

can have. You know maybe this winner's

curs is not as powerful anymore and

maybe want and I I'll be curious what

you guys think like one possible culprit

of that is just sports. um you know like

one of the reasons why usually teams did

not repeat or didn't do well uh is

because you know if you have a key part

of let's say your core that is let's say

28 29 years old uh you know four years

from there they're going to be like in

their early 30s and no not now but if

you go back like 20 years ago like

that's when most players actually start

to retire uh whereas today you know we

have like Modric still a great player uh

playing at 40 for for Croatia, Ronaldo

at 40, and like Messi, who was

essentially like one of the best players

in the tournament at 39, which is

completely unheard of. So, yeah, I think

that's maybe one reason why um that

winner's curse is is probably not as

relevant as it used to be um you know,

10 or or 15 years ago.

>> I mean, you could I think you can you

can add a couple of other reasons and

I've been thinking about it why it

failed. I think the expansion of the of

the tournament like in terms of number

of teams I think we can all you know we

can all agree or disagree but it feels

to me that the average dual at the group

stage of each of the groups was

relatively lower than what we we saw in

previous workups. So in other words, uh

when you look at the at the previous

groups of previous workup winners, I

felt like the overall like in terms of

average level and challenge to the team,

it was slightly higher. So in in in this

case, because when you look at the

winners, all of the conditions were met.

So in other words, it's not only that

there's additional pressure, you know,

pressure to repeat something that is

quite rare. There's the fact that the

average age of the uh Argentinian team

was quite elevated which is probably the

key uh the key ingredient to failing to

repeat at winning the World Cup. Uh and

yet when you look at you know what

Argentina did in the group stage it did

better than ever before. like usually

Argentina and I I don't think that Messi

I mean arguably I think Messi was for

like was still was playing at a better

level four years ago because think about

it he was still playing in Europe at the

highest level uh he was not yet in the

MLS this time around you you could say

all right perhaps he's been you know

chilling the entire season and he was

just waiting for the World Cup which

explains why even though he turned I

think he turned 39 during the tournament

it didn't really show because because of

his style like he spends most of the

time walking if you look at him on the

pitch you know it's always been the case

and you know he saved himself for the

world cup so I think those are

additional uh elements to account other

than just yes Messi is one of the

greatest players of all time but so is

Ronaldo and [laughter] and Ronaldo is

was doing the opposite with Portugal

than what Messi did with Argentina

Maybe playing the Saudi le could I jump

in and zag here for a second because I

know we want to get into the model, but

I I'm going to zag hard here and I I

just know the vitriol that's coming to

me for saying this. Um Messi's the goat,

right? Greatest of all time. I watched a

lot of World Cup. Didn't seem like the

goat to me. Felt like a lot of, oh,

we're going to bow down to this guy. But

I was at the England Argentina match for

the first 70 minutes. The dude was

washed. The dude couldn't dribble the

ball without losing it. He was tackling

Jude Bellingham, everything else. Now he

woke up. There's that meme and then he

had the two nicests in the corner. But

then in the final with Spain again, like

not there. And I know I'm not going to

do the conspiracy theory thing here, but

Switzerland had them on the ropes. Okay,

Egypt had them and then a goal got taken

away. I mean, this narrative changes

meaningfully in some sense. And there's

this whole like I get why the the the

public discourse is about Messi's the

goat, not the goat, because that's the

greatest conversation for media out

there. I mean, Michael Jordan's been

retired for how many decades? And this

is still the only conversation that

basketball commentators can get up

there, so we want this messy

conversation. So, I wanted to throw out,

hey, is he really that good? Like, I

almost wanted the England guys to be

like, no, we blew that. Instead, they

were like, oh my god, it was Jesus on

the pitch. It was like, no, it wasn't.

You guys just didn't do anything. Um,

but like he didn't seem that amazing to

me. But the flip side of that is I know

that he has this Steph Curry like

effect. You could see him bend the

center of gravity on the pitch because

everybody's going after him. And in that

sense, like I would bring up maybe

Norway and some of these other teams

that, you know, made it much further

than y'all's model said because if you

you don't necessarily have to have a

goat, but if you have Erling Holland

there in the center, apparently that can

also move gravity a little bit and can

change things. And I also just want to

say like, you know, looking at your

guys' first prediction, you got three

out of the four finalists. You had

France versus Portugal, I think, in the

final, right? And then the third place

round was was Spain, England. So that's

three out of four finals. I think the

way that the model actually failed the

most, the one to account for are things

like Norway, Egypt, Cape Verde, which

didn't get a mention in the report at

all and might turn out to be the

defining story of the World Cup in the

long run, the one that has the most

universal appeal. And none of these

teams got to the final. Like in the end,

Marco's material constraints, y'all's

modeling actually worked. Like you were

pretty much all the way there. But the

journey there, like you couldn't really

like get those those major stories that

came out. So, okay, there's a few bombs

I threw in. Take it whatever direction

you want. Yeah, maybe I'll react. So, I

mean, I think the thing to to recognize

is that he might be Jesus, but he's like

39y old Jesus. Like, I think it's the

fact that he was playing like this is

inconceivable. Like, no other 39year-old

has ever played like this. I think we're

looking at the top scorers and it was

like Messi and then you had like a bunch

of like early 20s guys like Mbappe,

Holland, uh, Harry Kane. So like nobody,

you know, Argentina wasn't really a

favorite like this workup because

everybody's like, "Hey, like their team

is old and their best player is 39."

>> Uh, so there's some of that. Uh, I think

what you mentioned is actually quite

accurate, not only because of the

gravity, but also because the effect

that it has on the teammates. Um, so

most people, for example, like Argentina

is a great example, like most of those

guys, um, they're now older, but they're

much younger than Messi. And people

might not believe Messi's Jesus. I

guarantee you that his teammates in

Argentina literally believe that he's

Jesus and like not in a figurative

sense. And so that obviously gives them

a lot of, you know, a lot of belief. Uh,

and you saw how like Argentina, you

know, in most of their games they kind

of like push really hard at the end. So,

so yeah, I think there's definitely like

an element to that that's important.

>> Yeah, I would definitely agree with

that. And I mean the one thing I would

say is I don't like if you it's very not

hard to know the counterfactual but if

you look at Argentina's path it was

objectively maybe not but subjectively

like the easiest path to the semi-final

for by any team. So, and then there's

obviously

the refs and I don't know, we don't want

to turn conspiracy theorists here, but

there was a lot of decisions that went

into the favor of of Lionel Messi and

there is obviously some benefit to FIFA

to push this narrative. So, you could

argue that, you know, without Messi,

Argentina would have, you know, lost in

the round of 16 or something. I think

that's not inconceivable, especially

when you see how they performed against

some of the better teams, even against

England. Like, yeah, they won, but they

didn't really do much until the last 10

minutes. And like Jacob said, England

probably more gave it away than

Argentina really winning it. So, I guess

the the biggest question is kind of,

okay, what about Spain next year? Like,

do we keep the winner's curse variable?

And I do think I mean you probably would

have said made the argument back in 2010

when they won that oh this a great team

like they're going to be great for a

long time and then they failed miserably

in the group stage next time. But I'm

also inclined to kind of think it's a

pretty young team similar to kind of the

France team that won in 2018 and that

then went back to the final. Um and it's

a pretty welloiled mechanism. So

obviously there can be a wrench thrown

into that, but if the World Cup stays,

you know, uh 48 or maybe 64 team

tournament, there's a good chance they

make it out of the group and then go on

a decent run once again.

>> Well, yeah, let me let me come back to

you, Jeremy. I just want to unpack a

couple of things there before we move on

to what, you know, the model might have

gone wrong and how is a 39year-old

crushing it. Just want to say one more

thing that you guys didn't mention, but

I know you guys thought about it.

Substitutions.

Like when I was a kid, you had two

substitutions. I remember when they

added the third was like a big deal. Now

we've got like I don't even know how

many. There's like a plethora of

substitutions. Five substitutions.

And it really helps I think um with deep

teams. It helps big nations. It helps uh

but it also helps older players because

um you know they they they can walk

because they've got fresh teammates to

do to carry the water for them, you

know, to be the water carrier. So that's

one thing I wanted to just add to that.

Um and Jeremy, like I I want to hear

what you want to say. Maybe you wanted

to take the conversation somewhere else,

which is fine. We can come back to this.

But I found it interesting that Robert,

your instinct was to introduce Spain to

this conversation 20 [ __ ] minutes

after we started. You know, in other

words, like, yeah, we had them in the

semi-finals. Yes, the model accounted

for them even better. Like, we weren't

ignoring Spain, but I think everybody

kind of was ignoring Spain, which is

crazy cuz they were the Euro champion.

It was kind of like, yeah, they're

there, but they're not cool. You know, I

want to talk about Mbappe. You know, I

want to talk about this incredible

French team. I want to talk about

England, which has probably the most

likable team it's ever had. I want to

talk about Messi. I want to talk about

But Spain is just this welloiled

machines, interchangeable parts, you

know, like none of them are really I

mean they're they are superstars. Just

Yamal like Yamin Yamal, sorry. Lamin

Yamal, I always butcher his name. He's

cool cuz he's like 17. But the truth is,

you know, when you think about Spain,

nobody really spent a lot of time

talking about them. Um, and that's

interesting to me. And I wonder whether

in this world where you can have so many

substitutions,

a country that just produces

interchangeable talent has, you know,

um, sort of an edge in everyone else.

>> Jeremy, go ahead. I interrupted you.

>> Yeah, no worries. I mean, a couple of

things and I'll start perhaps by uh

countering a bit of what you said. Right

before the World Cup started, Spain had

the highest odds according to betting

markets to win the World Cup. It's just

that it flipped the moment they drew

against uh Cab and that was really a

defining moment because you see Spain

high expectations. They I think they

ended up it was uh like 000 against Cab

and everyone was freaking out. I

remember watching.

>> Yeah.

>> And by the way, ju just to double click

on that, one of the reasons for that is

that that is the flaw of tikit taka. You

tick taka yourself to death and you

can't score. So yeah, that was like, oh,

here he comes. It's the usual way this

fails.

>> Exactly. And so a couple of points I

wanted to make like one last point about

Messi and then we can move on. Uh I

think there was two versions of Messi we

saw at this workup. There was really

Messi from the group stage and I was

quite surprised. I think if you look at

the number of minutes he played out of

the three games, I think he he played

all of them, which was I I think was

amazing. Uh but then once he moved, you

know, once they moved to the knockout

stage, I think that this I don't know if

it if he was tired, if it was just too

many minutes played. Uh but eventually,

I think his his impact on the game

started to decrease somewhat. also could

be that the the intensity and the the

level of opposition was higher. And the

last thing perhaps on on Spain, uh I

think another factor other than the fact

that if we compare Spain 2010, so the

World Cup winners 2010, World Cup

winners 2026. I think Robert nailed it.

The average age of the team is much

lower today than was in 2010. 2010 the

Spanish team had brought I mean they had

reached the the pinnacle of football art

but it was also a team that was peak

maturity.

Spain 2026 I think the average age is 23

24 years old which is I mean which is

very young. The second thing I think uh

will help Spain avoid the winners curse

four years from now is the fact that uh

unlike many other teams most of the guys

on the squad they play together at club

level. So not only that so you find a

lot of Barcelona players. I think before

the World Cup started people were upset

that there was no Real Madrid players.

Turns out you know it was uh probably

beneficial. But not only a lot of those

guys play together all season long. So

in other words, you put them you take

them out of Barcelona, you put them on

the Spanish squad, same same, you know,

they can play, you know, they know, they

just know how to play together. And on

top of that, most of those guys have

been playing together since youth teams,

which is not the case for many other

national teams.

>> Can I make one more observation? Um, and

what I think maybe what I'm thinking

what we should change for the model next

time around. I do think like there's

obviously an I a reason to have a group

stage and a knockout stage model because

it's somewhat different games and

different things matter. But what I I'm

thinking about now that, you know, we

got the semi-finals right, but then it's

kind of stopped working. And so what I'm

thinking is we might need to have again

a separate version with some different

variables for the semifinal and final

because I do think the other thing where

Spain really excels is not in these kind

of group stage games against complete

underdogs that just park the bus, but

they excel when they can like play

against in in Argentina, in France, in

England where the other team is willing

to actually play as well. Um, and so I

do think that's something that we should

definitely test next time around is what

are the factors that decide those like

very last games. Like if you look at

France, like their attack was amazing.

That was perfect for all these kind of

weaker teams. But when then when they

met Spain, they realized their midfield

isn't strong enough to keep up with with

with Spain. So the attackers didn't have

the ball. So it didn't do anything for

you that you had Mbappe, etc. up front

because they never really had a touch on

the ball. Um, and so I do think that's

the one thing that I'm would definitely

look into changing for next time is what

are the variables that matter more. And

for example, one could be actually

midfield and control of the midfield,

which at the moment we don't have the

midfield rating in our our model in

either the group or the knockout stage.

>> No, it's true. Or maybe you want to you

might want to adjust um the quality of

the opponent, which is funny, you know,

cuz you would think the worse the

quality, the more likely you're to win.

But as you point out, Spain plays like a

boa constrictor. It it strangles teams

to death with that, you know, midfield

is packed. They uh they defend very

high. And uh the problem is you can't

kill that which is already dead.

Like you can't strangle somebody who

doesn't breathe. And so when you come up

and you've got 10 dudes in the box

defending against a ball constrictor,

what's the point? It doesn't matter. You

can have the best midfielders in the

world, like the opponent is not meeting

you in the midfield at all. Um and

that's when you need those big strikers,

you know, you got to like cross into the

box and and like Spain just didn't have

that. Um, and Torres was also just kind

of terrible, you know, [laughter] until

he scored the main goal. So maybe that

was part of it. Um, all right. So

>> I also just just before we leave it, I

just want to point out that like every

one of the teams that might have

surprised the upside against your model.

Like you don't have to call it the goat

factor. Maybe call it the center of

gravity factor, but almost every single

one of them was one of these teams that

had one of these centers of gravity.

Like Norway is one of them. Egypt a

little bit less so, but still like you

still had like one or two really really

good players and they built everything

around it. The reason I did the Zag on

Messi also is in part like sure he's the

GOAT, but this time around he was like

Allen Iverson um playing against the

Lakers in the finals. Like they had to

build a team completely around him in

order to get into the position that he

was in. And so Argentina like maybe shot

itself in the foot because they

literally couldn't do anything else

besides rough it up and like let Messi

put in some shots. Anyway, the point I'm

just making is like you have these like

these teams like Spain, Switzerland felt

like this too where it's a team and

they're going to rise and fall together.

And then you have, you know, France has

Mbappe and England has these two guys

and and Argentina has these two guys.

And it's interesting to see the team

square off against the centers of

gravity. And one of the reasons why

maybe Spain could avoid the curse that

you're talking about is with Yamal

coming up, they can do that next time.

Like yes, they can do the boa

constrictor thing, but they're going to

have a dude if if he stays healthy

because righty wasn't healthy in this

one. If if he stays healthy in four

years, maybe they can do both. Maybe

they can switch back and forth between

these things. Maybe they can figure out

how to do that. But I I noticed that

tension very much. There are these team

these these team oriented ones where

it's all about the style and the

closeness and then it's just the hey,

we've got a Viking. We're going to put

him right here in the middle and

everything is about get the ball to the

Viking. We have to get the ball to the

Viking and if we do that, we have a

puncher's chance. I also just want to

point out before we leave it um that

Cape Verde goalie is 40 years old. So if

Messi is incredible uh Vzena at 40, the

blue shark like he he should also get a

shout out for performing at a high level

pass.

>> All right. Uh okay. So let's uh let's go

down the line. Uh I don't know who wants

to start, but um what were the two

things you did not like about this uh

World Cup?

>> I mean I can start Jeremy. Yeah, go

ahead. No, no, please. No, please go

ahead.

>> Uh, I mean I I will start with probably

I mean and it's inspiring because one of

your other segments is what's the most

geological thing and for me the thing I

I I like the least was uh the Trump call

[laughter]

that uh allowed or that pressured FIFA

into uh withdrawing the red card for uh

Balul the the US uh the the US team

forward. So that was by far uh the thing

the thing I I like the least. Uh I'm

still quite upset about it. Not not so

much I don't care that it's for you know

like I like the player like I I follow

him closely. He plays he plays in in

France with Monaco amazing player but I

thought this was this was just too much.

It was just it was just we know there is

always a little bit of you know and I'll

I'll try to be uh to be nice. There's a

lot always a little bit of corruption

and and things that you know you can't

explain, but this one it was just so out

in the open and I I just felt oh my god

please Trump leave football alone alone.

Just focus on anything else. Leave

football alone. So that was the f the

first thing. The second thing uh the

water breaks like it's just I I don't

get it. And I've seen a lot of

commentaries about people in stadiums

where, you know, it was chill. Like

there it's not like you actually needed

to take breaks like they did, you know,

like during the World Cup in Q or when

you play in some countries where it's

actually really hot. Uh I I didn't like

it as a as a you know, watching you know

those games on TV. I didn't like those

extra breaks. I think it also added an

element of strategy to it, you know,

which might be good because essentially

you start playing two halftimes, you

play four quarter times. So it allows uh

the managers to, you know, operate

different, you know, operate changes

more rapidly than they usually can. So I

like this the strategic element. I

didn't like how it really cut the game.

Uh and I I feel like even for the

players, I felt bad. like I I thought it

was it was really unnecessary and once

again motivated by I think revenues

rather than uh than than football.

>> Can I counter on these two?

>> Can I can I defend

>> the TDSDS coming? Here it comes. Here we

go. What? 32 minutes. Okay.

>> Actually, so I'm I'm not going to defend

that. Like whatever, you know. I'm just

going to uh somebody said this is what

aboutism, you know. Oh well, yeah, it is

what aboutism. Okay, so for hysterical

historical and hysterical perspective in

2002 World Cup, South Korea got to the

semi-finals basically because FIFA just

bribed bribed the refs. Let's let's be

[ __ ] honest. They beat Spain, a great

Spain team, and they beat Italy, a great

Italy team that four years later wins

the World Cup.

and they do so because like the refs I

mean it was just astounding. So that's

that's an example of FIFA favoring the

host. And the whole point in 2002 was

like, hey, Asia has a lot of people.

We need to make sure that they really

double click on soccer, on football.

Like we need to make sure that like the

Japanese, the Koreans, and just Asians

in general like love football. So let's

make sure that at least one of these two

hosts, Japan and South Korea, get to the

semi. So that was like I think much

worse than giving a mediocre team their

mediocre team uh uh uh a player back.

Sorry Americans, but that those are

facts, you know. So that's the first.

The second is the fact that we've got

two World Cups in Russia and Qatar that

were clearly hosted due to bribes. You

know, like again, like America wouldn't

have beaten Belgium if you had given

them [ __ ] Messi, man. You know what I

mean? Like, let's like pump the brakes

on the relevance of this. So, I would

just say like I think that the previous

two examples, three examples are so much

worse. The whole fact that Russia got to

host after it invaded Ukraine the first

time and Qatar, which is like unlivable

in the summer. Granted, we moved the

World Cup and stuff and had air

conditioning in in stadiums, but like

those two examples are much worse, I

think, than this. I think maybe we lose

some perspective. Now, water breaks,

here's what I will say about water

breaks. Um, they have this new rule now

where like if you get injured on the on

the field on the pitch and you start

rolling on the grass like you've been

shot by a sniper and like the medical

team has to come on the field, you got

to sit out a minute. So, your team is

now playing 11 versus 10. I wonder if

that rule can stay without the water

bricks.

I think you can because these guys get

play get paid millions of dollars like

and you have five substitutes. So, man

up and just play. But the rolling on the

ground and pretending like you've been

sniped was also useful in that that was

a water break. you know, like the

trainer came on the pitch, carried the

water, everybody kind of gathered

around, opponents and the team of the

injured player. Everybody shared water,

right? While their teammate was like

rolling and then like finally

resurrected like Jesus. Um I don't know.

Like that's where I would say like the

water breaks to me almost um make it so

that we can go on with the rest of the

game without allowing anybody to have a

little break while their teammate is

like doing like a solo in an opera of

how much they're hurt. I don't know.

That's just maybe a weak counter.

>> Can I throw in just something, you know,

just quickly before we we we hear Juan

and and uh and Robert on what they

didn't like. I I have a hench that if

not for that, you know, pressure to get

the red card removed for Baligon, I feel

like it gave so much extra extra

motivation to Belgium and and quite

frankly to most teams in the world. Like

I don't think it was just Belgium

against US. I feel it was just the world

of football versus the US team. uh

before and you know I was I had like a I

had like bets on you know on the side

for the World Cup before this happened.

I had the you know I was quite confident

that the US would win against Belgium

because up until that point honestly

Belgium was quite disappointing if you

think about their the group stage pretty

fairly disappointing.

>> They've been disappointing for 20 years.

Yeah they've been disappointing for 20

years. No, no. Like if you if you think

of 2018, 2018, I mean, they lost to I

mean, they lost to France in the

semi-finals again, you know, against the

the team that would eventually win the

World Cup. So, it's just that this time

around, I think they they failed at

regenerating uh the team you have, you

know, their key players are honestly old

and now they play, you know, they still

play in Europe, but they play in Italy.

So, [laughter] you know, take it for

what it is. Uh but I thought that the US

team had the chances, you know, had a

really a really high chance at winning

this game against Belgium and and in the

end even with Balugum being back on the

field, the US team sort of I mean they

made a fool of themselves like you know

like if you remember the the goalie I

mean it was it was incredible and I

think it was because of all the the

media pressure that was onto that team

because of the decision to uh to bring

Balaboom uh back on onto the pit. pitch.

>> Yeah, they even said that. Uh, and also

like we commented on this. Jacob and I

were commenting. I mean like Belgium

just took out the belt and like it was

it was more emotion I've seen out of

Belgium like ever. So in the history of

Belgium, you know, it was like, no,

we're going to we're going to we're

going to win and we're going to I mean

that was clear from the first 10

minutes. It was really like amazing. Um,

all right. Go on or anyone else? Anyone

else? Jacob, who wants to go next? Two

things you did not like. So, Jeremy said

Trump getting involved with the red card

and water breaks. I mean, by the time

the fourth person comes, we're going to

really be searching for things we did

not like, which is fine. Uh, I like that

about this. Who else?

>> Sure. So, I'm going to copy German on

one thing, which was the water breaks. I

also, you know, didn't like them. I

actually So, I went to a game uh in

Dallas and like that stadium is like

covered and, you know, like why are you

having water breaks in when it's like

20°? Uh the other thing and I'm going to

sag a little bit here because I think

this is a lot of people didn't like the

VAR and what I didn't like was the all

the sort of like sanctimony around the

VAR. So I I did not like that people did

not like the VAR. I actually like Var.

Let me explain why.

>> Like I think people forget like the

amount of calls that used to be on call

back when there was no VAR. It was

obscene. I mean like in ' 86 like

Maradona literally score a goal with his

hand you know not that long ago like I

don't know this wasn't in the World Cup

per se but it was in the qualifiers like

France qualified also with enri scoring

with his hand and kick somebody out of

the tournament uh you know like I

understand why you know you see the you

see the sort of things in in replay and

then you might disagree with the call

like at least they're marginal like

before things that were obvious used to

get missed Uh, and so I think that I

understand why VAR might not be good on

a flow perspective. Uh, it creates like

this emotional roller coaster. It stops

the game a lot. Like I get that. But to

me there is no question like none that

the games are more fair, more just. Um,

and so that's that's what I would would

say about VAR.

I mean I I als I have to say what well

I'm obviously a bit biased but I think

the problem for me with VAR is still

that it's a bit unclear of what exactly

the rules are and not necessarily the

rules of the game itself but also when

is it used and when isn't it used and

that's the part especially the way

Germany got kicked out that I'm uh a bit

frustrated with is like the way Germany

like the goal that was disallowed that

was a goal every time for Arsenal in the

Premier League. If that wasn't allowed,

then Arsenal would have probably

finished 10th in the in the Premier

League. Like, it's just very unclear of

like when can you use it, when can't you

use it? And I think that's the thing

that that needs to be approved. The

other thing I have to say I didn't like

is and it might have a little bit to do

for with the time zone, but I thought it

was too many games. I was in the group

stage. I was waiting for the tournament

to really kick off. But then at the same

time, by the time we got to the

quarterfinal, I was like feeling a bit

exhausted of like, you know, this is the

part where you want to get really really

excited, but you've also just already

had four weeks of like 100 games. And I

thought it was a bit too much. I I got a

bit fatigued. And funny enough, like I

was watching the England uh France game

uh for the round of uh sorry for the

third place here in the UK. Nobody

cared. Literally nobody cared. We were

in the pub. It was like okay it was 10

p.m. but it was on a Saturday.

>> We were the case for every you know

third place match. I mean I would you

remember like is there a memorable third

third uh third place match that you know

from the past World Cups?

>> Oh, they're all

memorable.

>> I was I remember Germany third place in

2006 when they hosted the World Cup

against Portugal. Like that was I

remember that and that was still a big

thing like and you know I mean you don't

have to really care but I was literally

we were like the only people in the pub

watching this game. like people left

throughout the game. By the end of the

game, the pub was empty. And that was

like I've heard that from multiple

people. Like I think it was just like

people were like enough of this World

Cup. Like we've we've seen enough of

soccer.

>> Although Robert I I think that might

have been because of the way England

lost in the first like there was such it

caused such depression in the country

that like I think that probably had

something to do with it.

>> I think that I did not like the

substitutions.

Okay. So I I get it. It allows, you

know, Messi to play at 53,

[laughter]

you know, uh, great. We can have guys

come in for the last like 15 minutes

and it's it's useful to make like

tactics become more interesting. The

problem is that I think um it makes it

really difficult

um to surprise and for smaller teams to

kind of excel. I actually think that's

one of the problems. Uh this was I think

the first World Cup where the top four

seated got to the semi-finals. Correct

me if I'm wrong about that uping. So um

and you know like felt like at the

beginning it felt oh you know Cape Verie

Kuraka like sweet cool interesting but

not not really like it was just like

expanded and so some small countries

that m that did a really extraordinary

job of recruiting expats and God bless

him for that but like you know what did

they do nothing they did nothing they

out

>> no they fizzled out like it was cool

story

>> come drive by a cape fair cur Yeah.

Okay. Go for it.

>> No, I mean like you know like we we have

had teams like Turkey, South Korea.

Okay. That was FIFA being corrupt, but

like we had South Korea, Turkey, we've

had Portugal, we've had Belgium, we've

had Croatia in the semi-finals. Uh

Croatia is a country of 4 million

people. Um that's cool. And I think it's

going to be really difficult to do that

if you let teams come in with two

squads. You know who who who has two

squads? Like nobody. So that was I think

one of the things that I thought um was

unfortunate. The other one

>> if I go ahead

>> you know I agree with you too many

substit substitutions although when you

look at uh when you take the knockout

stage I think that's where it makes

sense. So group stage I'm 100% with you

let's reduce it bring it back to three

let's say but once you reach the

knockout stage and we've seen it in this

workup many games went into extra time.

So,

>> but that's awesome, Jeremy, though. But

I No, listen. Like, but that is

football. That's like I mean, look,

maybe I'm just older than everyone here,

and that's fine. like I'm just an old

guy on a porch like knocking back and

forth. But like look I like

yeah if you have the whole team relying

on Messi and that's your whole strategy

you should lose

to Egypt because you can't do the

substitutions and you can't keep fresh

legs around him. Like that's what used

to happen. Teams got punished because

they, you know, were too old. They got

punished because they couldn't go into

the overtime with and and then what also

happened is cool [ __ ] happened, you

know, like breakaway goals happened. Uh

mistakes happened. Um awesome like fouls

happened, you know, because the

36year-old over the hill past expiration

date center back gets paired up with a

21-year-old Michael Owen and you're

like, "Oh, [ __ ] How do I catch him? I

can't. Red card. Let's go." like that

[ __ ] kind of happened, you know, and we

don't have that because everyone was

fresh, everyone was awesome, everyone

was shredded. Um, it allows us to

protect these unique, wonderful players

that Jacob loves, but it also like I

think has really changed football more

than anything else

because we want mistakes. You know,

Jeremy's point is like, well, yeah, but

like then the game gets better. And I'm

like, I don't want the game to get

better. I want it to become chaos. you

know, I wanted to become complete and

utter disaster. Um, anyways, I don't

know. So, but that's also just be me

being old. The other thing that I um I

think America has the greatest stadiums

on the planet. Like there's not even

like it's not even close. Uh I attended

the Canada South Africa game in LA and I

mean SoFi is just a [ __ ] temple, you

know? Um, and the only issue is that,

and I don't know how you fix this

because it's the World Cup and it's got

to be hosted somewhere, but these

stadiums are so massive that it was

funny because in that stadium of 70,000

people, like 62,000 were Mexican fans

and they were so bored with this MLS

quality game that was quite frankly like

like I mean it was a terrible game, you

know, Canada versus South Africa. You

don't know who's worse. Um, but like

they were so bored. 62,000 people. Now

you guys are watching on TV, so I'm sure

they were showing this section of

Canadian fans who were like really into

it. I can tell you I was there. Nobody

heard him. Nobody heard them. There

[laughter] was like what you heard was

62,000 Mexicans being like, "Oh man,

this sucks. I can't I paid 3K to go to

an MLS game and then trying to do uh the

Mexican wave." You know, that was the

biggest the most the biggest roar in the

crowd came not when Canada scored a

goal. It was when finally we got the

Mexican wave going and it was successful

and like the stadium blew up. Uh so I

don't know. I mean, I don't want to say

I don't like that because I think having

70,000 fans is awesome even for random

games, but the experience in the stadium

in that game was was pretty bad.

Um, I guess this I'm just I'm just good

at finding things that are wrong with

things. It's the Larry David in me.

Y'all didn't even touch my list. So,

I've got a few here. Um, the first the

first is, by the way, I'm amused that

you guys are so anti-water breaks. It's

like we're all analysts sitting at our

desks typing things and we're like,

these worldass athletes, they shouldn't

be allowed to take a water break in

Miami where it's like 95% humidity and

95 degrees. It's like, it's okay for

them to have a two and a half minute

water break. I was okay with that. Um,

just just poking a little fun there. By

the way, cousin, you're right that most

US stadiums are amazing. The Meadowlands

is not a temple. Like the final should

not have been in New York. It should

have been at the Aztec or like some

place that was better. Like that was a

fool. Like I'm I'm sure somebody got a

bribe there that allowed that to happen.

That was annoying. Okay, but my list of

things

>> bribes in New Jersey like that. That's

never happened.

>> Never happened before. Ever. Um I said I

went to the Argentina England game. One

of the things I was most looking forward

to was the national anthems. I thought

it was going to be so cool. This moment

of respect before the match starts.

England anthem was supposed to be first.

The Argentina fans that were there, so

I'm not going to say this is all of

Argentina, but the Argentina fans that

were at this match, and by the way, that

stadium was roughly 85% Argentina. There

were not a lot of Americans there. You

had the the English guys dressed up as

the knights in the funny costumes and

then it was like 85% Argentina. That was

the room. Um, but they booed and

whistled through the English national

anthem and then of course the English

got pissed off and so the Argentine

couldn't hear the an couldn't hear

either team's anthem and it it made it

so the feeling in the stadium was kind

of mean. Um, like I didn't really feel

any of the tension until that moment and

I just hated that moment for both sides

for the audience. It just felt like it

felt antithetical to everything the

World Cup was supposed to stand for and

Argentina seemed to be at the center of

of those sorts of things throughout this

tournament. So I did not like that at

all. Um, I can't believe none of y'all

said this. I hated halftime of the World

Cup final. What was this, the Super

Bowl? Why is Justin Bieber and all these

guys coming out to do songs in the

middle of the half? And I the watch

party I was with was like, "This is so

cool." It's not cool. If I wanted to

watch football, I'd go watch football.

I'm here to watch the World Cup, not

this. That really that really got me.

>> But Jacob, Jacob, like like you know,

you you you got to be thankful because

thanks to that crappy show, halftime

show, it provided us with like an

amazing meme where you see Ronaldo R9

driving that little car and and you can

tell he doesn't know what he's doing

here.

>> That was the highlight of that of that

halftime show. Like I'm so I'm still

thankful for that. I don't like it, you

know, but that was so hilarious. So, I

think you have to look at it with a bit

of a, you know, like a bit of sarcasm

and and and if you do an irony and then

you enjoy it.

>> That's nice. I I like the glass half

full, but I thought it was stupid. I I

was like, "Come on, guys." Almost as

stupid as Tom Cruz's little monologue. I

don't know what the heck Tom Cruz was

doing at the beginning there, just like

talking into the ether. Um, and then

I'll add a third, and I can't believe

none of you brought this up, but this is

also very geopolitical. Um, and this is

before the Belgium stuff and the way

Trump inserted himself and the way he

was dancing in front of the Spanish

team. Like, that's classic Trump. he

just wants the attention and the

attention will be there. the way the US

the US government treated the Iranian

team was shameful and the karma that

came from that and and for for those who

don't know at first they were maybe not

going to let them have their visa to

come play in the United States when then

they when they finally allowed them to

they wouldn't let them spend the night

in Los Angeles they had to play the

match and then get straight on a plane

and get sent straight back to Mexico to

sleep which is okay like it's not the

worst thing to happen in the world but

just no generosity of spirit no

willingness to say these players are

not, you know, theocratic thugs who are

bombing people or terrorists, right?

They're soccer players. The whole point

of this is to bring people together. If

you want to bring down the Islamic

Republic, you want these soccer players

to hang out in LA and have a good time

and meet with the Iranians that are in

Los Angeles. I just thought it was such

a such a petty, meaningless, and

vindictive show of force from the US

government, and it pissed me off way

more than the FIFA stuff. Like, FIFA and

the Trump administration were made for

each other. like okay like I'm not so

and I did some background on FIFA like

of course like this is a corrupt

organization like stop stop with the you

know the the puress of the ethics of

football like whatever but like the way

that the US treated Iran um just

shameful like I think history will

remember that as a stain on the on the

record of the United States as a host

>> and it actually extends beyond just the

treatment to Iran like a a lot of I mean

many other national teams experienced uh

issues with uh visas and entering the

us. Um I mean top of my mind I think

Sagal they were missing

>> half of the members of their staff. So

players got through no problem. I think

they're missing half of the member of

the staff including uh the cook uh and

and it was a big I mean it was a big uh

issue for the for for the Sagal team. uh

they complained about it obviously had

an impact on the quality of their uh you

know group stage uh games and I think

and I can't remember right now but other

teams had similar issues with late visas

I mean visas being delivered at the last

minute which obviously also had a

negative impact on uh on the games.

>> Okay, was that it Jacob? Was that your

letter David list? We can move on.

[laughter] That was

>> okay. So, um, things that, uh, we liked

about the World Cup, you know. Um, so

I'm going to start us off because this

is going to be controversial.

I like the fact that we expanded the

teams,

okay? And I liked it because

because a lot of the teams that were

laughed at pre-World Cup ended up being

decent. like I mean not like again not

great and a lot of things went against

him in the later stages including the

substitutions and the depth of you know

established teams but like why not have

kept cap and kura and by the way these

are countries that have gotten really

good like their federations did a really

good job they went out they found the

expats that were maybe born elsewhere

off the scent and uh you know like when

I looked at the rosters

of most of the teams like it was kind

shocking how they really had players

playing in really good leagues. Um,

other than like kind of the usual

suspects, you know, like Saudi team

plays in the Saudi league. All the fine

like Saudi league is of course improving

quality. There's a few examples like

that. But for the most part, you know,

you had really interesting, cool players

that otherwise would not have made the

World Cup, but they made it because it

expanded. Now, so I have a suggestion

for next one. All right. So, what's the

what's the plan right now to expand to

60 something or

>> what's the plan?

>> 64. Okay. So, I'm actually here's my

proposal to FIFA. Expand to 88.

Okay. Hear me out. Hear me out. 24

teams, 24 like back in the old days,

qualify for the World Cup and they get

placed into groups.

And for the last eight slots to make 32

teams, you have a [ __ ] March Madness

style 64 round robin tournament where

like Kuraka has to play like Slovenia,

you know, and we get to the elite eight

of that tournament and those eight then

get seated into the groups. And so we

kind of, you know, I got inspired by

this um plan to have in 2030 several

games in South America to honor the 100

years of the Uruguay World Cup hosted,

you know, in 1930. And I was like, why

don't we just do that again? You want

more countries to play in the World Cup?

Do a round robin. 64 teams, boom, pick a

country for that tournament and then

those eight teams just go and play in

the other group. That would be my

solution. And then you can say 88

countries played in the World Cup. There

you go.

>> I like it.

>> All right. Um, what else did you guys

like?

What was cool? What was interesting?

What made you actually excited about

this World Cup?

>> So, I mean, you know, not at the

beginning of the tournament, but I think

and you mentioned it uh Marco, the

stadiums. I mean, for anyone anyone

who's been to stadiums in in in Europe,

you you watch the that World Cup and

you're just amazed. And it wasn't just

the stadiums in in in the US, by the

way. Even I mean, obviously, you look at

the Aka, you see some of the the

stadiums in in Mexico and you're just,

you know, blown away. It was the, you

know, the infrastructure was just

amazing. So now obviously there's the

the issue of like what was the average

you know uh ticket price compared to

previous workups you know I'm not

getting into that but just the overall

um uh level of instructure it was really

impressive and you know I grew up in

France we we have crappy stadiums like

literally even you know even the best

French team at the moment PSG the

stadiums is you know is is it's an

historical building like we love but

it's it's like 40,000 seats and it's

it's been around for like 60 plus years.

So, that was one thing I really like.

The second thing uh I really like and it

was new a new format, but I really like

the fact that all the players from each

team, even the the people on the bench

would actually stand up and and and be,

you know, uh able to sing the end. I

really like that. I don't know it

before. It's like like it's up because

people are on the bench that they

shouldn't be able to, you know, sing the

anthem, which is so I I also I mean it's

a minor thing, but uh I thought it was a

it was a nice addition to the to the

FIFA.

>> Um so I would agree with Jeremy. So uh

the game I went to was in Jerry World

and I had never been to a stadium like

that. Uh just incredible stadium,

gigantic screen. I think it's 80,000

people capacity. Uh it was full you know

I went to Japan Netherlands game it was

full of fans all singing uh yeah truly

truly incredible infrastructure the US

has

>> I think the spectacle also is what I

liked and I mean you know my first World

Cup that I watched religiously as a kid

as an 8-year-old was 1990 in Italy and

it was the the ceremony like the anthems

the flags that kind of got me into

geopolitics. I mean, there was other

things going on that got me into it, but

like I always like that part of the

World Cup. Um, but I just like what

America is truly best at in the world.

Like this is like where it's

unparalleled,

this is where it's still a uniolar world

is like production value,

you know, like like for example, if you

watch like Euro League basketball, like

production is just like off. It's just a

little off, you know? like like the

advertising, the court, the lighting,

the stadium, they try to raise the bar,

the Europeans, in terms of like

production value. And when they do, it

just like looks even worse,

you know, where Americans are just the

best at producing

entertainment. And so like the whole

like the camera angle, the flags,

Rihanna, you know, belting titanium,

like let's go. That was incredible the

way that that was done. Of course, you

guys didn't like the halftime show and

that's fine.

>> I'm I'm the Kermage in there. Like, get

Rihanna. I don't need Rihanna out here,

please.

>> We don't We don't need that either. But

like just the way Yeah, I I don't

disagree with that, Jacob. But like

everything else, I think was done better

than any other World Cup ever. It was

just like dialed in.

[snorts]

>> I I was so impressed by those those guys

who would run out with the flag every

single time. Those flags were huge. like

how many times did they have to practice

to run out there with the flag and how

many different crews did they I mean

they could have subbed in for some of

those teams the way they were running

and how efficient they were.

>> Um I'll mention one thing that I really

like and this a little bit opposite to

what Jacob said that he didn't like. Um

I think the drama and the stakes uh and

you know Jacob was saying you know like

you have this wonderful event that is

supposed to unite people. Uh no the

workup is not supposed to unite people

supposed you're supposed to win. And I

think this is the South American in me,

but like people in in football, like in

South America for example, they are

generally very cordial with each other,

the only place where they're able to

kind of like express that nationalism

and that animosity is in football. And

so like you ask anybody like in South

America, they hate Argentina. Like they

hate them like in at a very deep level.

They hate Uruguay. Uh they hate Brazil.

And so, you know, I like that the

intensity of the games, the fact that we

had so much controversy. I think that

like, you know, that you have Trump

saying, "Hey, you know what? Like, screw

you. We're going to we're going to kind

of like keep our guy because we can."

Uh, and also that you have as you get

like further in the stages, you have

like teams be like very physical with

each other. Uh, I think personally I

found that great. Uh, and I actually

find that as a something that I like

about the work.

>> Yeah. I mean to for the record I'm not

anti the drama. I would just say like um

that England Argentina match and you

know this is this is one anecdote so it

it kind of goes and also England and

Argentina have a very unique

relationship and there's the Faullands

and there's everything else that goes

with that but the national anthem thing

started like it it cast a Paul over the

the environment in the room. And I mean

I'm not exaggerating at least four

fights broke out around me at the end of

the match. And I mean like you know

dudes squaring up and actually landing

punches. There was this one woman that

was throwing drinks at some of the these

England fans and she was going through

the tunnel and these these England fans

were pelting her with like really heavy

like water bottles and beer can uh beer

bottles and things like that. There was

this one English high school kid who

started dumping a beer over an Argentine

woman's head as she's running through

the tunnel. And actually, shout out to

this English dad because this dad picked

his kid up by the the the sleeves on his

shoulder and shoved him in a chair and

started yelling at him about how like

that's not how you're supposed to

behave. And I wanted to be like, that's

how we that's how we dad. Like that's a

father right there telling his like son

who's broken. Like they're all broken

inside cuz England just watched and he

still has the wherewithal to be like sit

the [ __ ] down and you're not throwing

anything at these Argentines. But like

I'm cool with the stakes and the drama,

but like when people are punching each

other around you after the match like

that, like it was not cool. It was it

felt it felt bad.

>> But you know, to be to be clear, like I

think that's gotten a lot better though,

Jacob. like, you know, for for the rest

of us on this, you know, who have been

like watching football since we were

like before we could speak English, uh,

which is the three of us on this podcast

here. Um, it was so much worse. It was

so much worse. In like 1990 when the

World Cup was in Italy, there's a famous

documentary about this. There's a real

concern that English hooligans, you

know, England was like coming back to

the world stage after being banned after

a couple of like really bad incidents.

And there was real concern, you know,

that this was going to like result in

deaths, like massive just blood on the

streets. And I think that this is where

a lot of people um regret how expensive

these World Cup tickets are.

>> But I do think on some level, and this

is going to sound incredibly snobby and

elitas for me, but on some level, like

he just keeps the riff raff out, you

know? Sorry, this is definitely like let

him eat cake Marco moment, but you know

like huligans tend to not pay 3k for you

know a seat. So I walked in with my

daughter into a World Cup game. Granted

between two teams that definitely are

not going to start you know fighting but

there was like zero concerns like

there's no concern of security in a lot

of these games. And I think that's

awesome. I think that's that's

incredible that we've gotten to that

point. Um yeah, you're just you don't

have the kind of violence that has been

associated with football like at all.

>> But this is I mean on the one hand I

want to agree with you Marco but on the

other hand you have a lot of leagues you

know especially in Europe where tickets

you know are pretty cheap and yet you

don't you know you can still go to the

stadium with your kids and you know

you'll have a good time. Like think

about Germany like you know if you

Bundesliga you can go to stadiums

they're full they have the highest you

know rate of attendance in in Europe or

even in the world nothing will ever

happen to you. So, I think it's, you

know, I feel like it's really more of a

problem for some national teams or or or

some nationalities

um than, you know, I don't think the,

you know, having higher more expensive

uh tickets will

>> No, you're right.

>> I think it penalizes

>> it penalizes, you know, the the greater

number because of the actions of a of a

few.

>> No, you're actually right. I think uh I

definitely came off way too elitist. And

I will say this, I think you're

absolutely right because I remember the

first time I ever went to a game and and

what a way to be introduced to football.

It was in Belgrade. I'm I think I'm like

six, seven years old and it's Red Star

versus Partisan like and I remember my

dad would always whether we watch

basketball or football have us sitting

in the aisle

and always like behind the goal or

behind the basket. And I was always

like, "But dad, I want to be in the

middle." Like, you know, why can't we be

in the middle? And he was always like,

"This is the easiest way to exit the

stadium." Like, [laughter] and I was

like, "Why does that matter?" And then

the game would start and I'll be like,

"Oh, okay." And you're right. Like, uh,

so like, you're totally right. I don't

think it's monetary. I scratch my other

comment. I think you're right. It's

cultural. I think we've become less

violent

in sports. Like, I tourists go to

Belgrade now to watch Partisan versus

Red Star. like this is a tourist

attraction. Tickets are like €200 euros

to go sit in a stadium and watch this

because it's cool and because the the

fans themselves choreograph these, you

know, what would have seen as very

threatening and violent this place,

they're now like actually cool and fun

and it's not violent at all. Um, so

that's cool. I mean, I think that

evolution of football is really cool.

>> Yeah, I I hope you guys are right. I I

was after after attending England

Argentina, I was grateful that the US

and Iran didn't face each other. because

I'm not sure.

>> Oh, no. Nothing would have happened.

Nothing would have happened.

>> I I don't know. You put a bunch of I

don't know. But uh

>> the support for the Iran war is below

30%. Like

>> that's I get you.

>> And the people who support the war

against Iran, I'm going to go out on my

limb uh with a high conviction view say

are not football fans and are not paying

2K to go to a game. You know what I

mean? Like those those people. One of

the amazing things about Trump, he got

Republican senators talking about uh

about FIFA and soccer and the red card

in Balagot. I mean, when Ted Cruz

walking around talking about this, it's

incredible.

>> Dudes with like um a a window print of

an American flag being torn by a bald

eagle. Like those guys are not going to

go to that game, you know? Like I I just

think like I think that would have been

actually I think if US had played Iran

that would have been maybe the best

game. And I and I feel like the American

fans would have actually been incredibly

generous. So to your point, Jacob, you

know, your earlier point, you know,

saying that the way that the American

government treated Iranian soccer

players was one of the things you didn't

like. I I agree with you. But I think

that had the American fans had a chance,

you would have seen the other side of

America, which by the way, so many other

people saw. So, this is one of the other

things I would say I I really like and

and I already mentioned this to you uh

Jacob in one of our podcasts. All these

YouTube clips and videos of Europeans

running around America loving America

and being like so like pleasantly

surprised by like bies or like highways,

>> ranch dressing, cars, you know,

>> man, check out blue cheese. Like ranch

is fine, but like go get you some wings

and some blue cheese, you know? and then

some some English guy driving in a wagon

ear and being like, "What the [ __ ] is

this?" you know, like. So, [snorts] I

thought that was also cool. And I think

that um I think that that was

heartwarming to see. Yeah. I I want to

say a few things I liked and and the

first is not specific to the World Cup.

It's just about why soccer is so is such

a great sport. Um which is the

continuous action. Um, and it's a small

point, but it's like even with the

hydration breaks. It's like you sit down

and for 45 minutes you have to watch

like uh I'm I'm stealing this point. I

think it was from uh Bill Simmons or

somebody like in the Ringer Network was

like this is the only sport where I can

go to a bar and watch it because

everybody understands that when it's on,

we're all looking. We're watching. We're

not having conversations over here. Like

we're not doing side things. It's like

because if you turn your head away for

30 seconds, you're going to miss all the

action. And I hope I hope there is

somebody in the NBA league office who is

watching this or who is listening to

this. Basketball could be like this. If

you take away a lot of the timeouts and

the stoppages and the video blah blah

blah blah blah like you want to copy

what soccer is doing because it first of

all gives you like a set amount of time

that this match is going to go so you

know you know roughly how long you have

to be there. And number two you actually

have to focus like the stakes like you

have to put your phone down for a

second. You have to pay attention and be

in the moment. It's a wonderful thing

for that. But it's funny, you guys

talked about some of the things you

liked. For me, and maybe this just uh

betrays like who I am as an analyst,

too, cousin. Um, for me, it was like the

narratives, that Mexico England match. I

will remember that match for the rest of

my life. Like you get the red card on

England. It's like they've got however

what 30 minutes, 35 minutes, they're

down a man and they're just hunkered

down and, you know, they're having to

fend off shot after shot after shot and

I'm just like sitting up watching like

can't help myself like watching my

allegiances shift in real time because

of what they're doing. Like I thought

that was an incredible um underdog

performance under duress and how as a

team they were were able to survive

that. And you took the drive drive by

Cape Verde cousin. I thought the Cape

Verde story was amazing. This is going

to be nation changing for for Cape

Verde. Um and just the idea that you can

have like fine they didn't get to the

finals and y'all's model was right about

who got there and you have to have a big

country and infrastructure and blah blah

blah but I loved these Cinderella

stories. I loved that we got fairly far

into the tournament and you had Capefar

putting up a fight against Messi and

Argentina. You had Switzerland or like

some of these randos putting up a really

good fight until the very end and that

sort of David versus Goliath narrative

like I mean that's what it's all about.

So I I really enjoyed the narratives and

I don't know how you I mean maybe it's

because they added more teams, maybe it

was just an ex exceptional year. Uh for

me the drama was in that we didn't quite

know what was going to happen that you

did have this Norway team that came out

of nowhere with the rowing and like that

those narratives did really well and

it's going to be very hard I like that's

not about production values it's just

you had compelling people and compelling

national narratives competing on a

global stage in a real in a really great

way like those those things will stay

with me for a long time.

All right. So, [clears throat]

uh, last segment. The most geopolitical

>> we got to do in 12 minutes because I got

to get out of here in 12 minutes.

>> Yes. Yes. Same here. So, okay. So, first

of all, Robert had to uh leave us um to

go work and make money uh while the rest

of us have fun on Thank you, Robert. Um

so his point was his point was um he

[clears throat] thought it was very

interesting that when Belgium

got basically um you know put into the

situation where the best player on the

US squad was rescued by the US president

the Europeans did not do anything about

it. They did not band together the

federations UEFA. UEFA is the European

Federation and often has slightly

antagonistic relationship with FIFA