Jared Isaacman was nominated by

President Trump to become the 15th

administrator of NASA in December. He

passed out of the Senate committee in

May and was set to be confirmed by the

full Senate this week. However, on

Friday, President Trump withdrew his

nomination for Isaacman. We asked Jared

to sit down with us for a conversation.

We dive into everything. his experiences

as a successful entrepreneur, fighter

jet pilot, commander of the world's

first all civilian space flight and the

first civilian to conduct a spacew walk.

What he saw in his six months studying

NASA. How American government

bureaucracy has eroded its performance

and puts the nation at risk in the great

space race underway with China. And what

really happened? Was it a discovery

about prior donations to Democratic

candidates or an association with Elon

Musk that lost him the nomination?

Here's my conversation with Jared

Isaacman.

All right, besties. I think that was

another epic discussion. People love the

interviews. I could hear him talk for

hours. Absolutely. We crushed your

questions in a minute. We are giving

people ground truth data to underwrite

your own opinion. What do you guys

think? That was fun. That was great.

Jared, welcome. I, like many space

enthusiasts, was thrilled for your

nomination to lead NASA as the 15th

administrator of the agency. Founded in

1958, the year after the Russians put

Sputnik into orbit, NASA's perhaps, in

my opinion, the US government's most

pioneering agency, having organized and

led our exploration missions to the

moon, Mars, the outer solar system, and

beyond, as well as the launch of

important scientific missions to observe

the Earth, to observe our solar system,

and the deep universe, and of course,

the installation and operation of the

ISS. and you seemed really qualified for

the job as uh a business manager, a

successful

entrepreneur, a flight and space

enthusiast. So, I'm really curious to

hear your views on NASA, the space

industry overall, the race with China,

and frankly hear a little bit about what

the heck just happened with your

nomination. A lot of people have a lot

of questions that we'd love to hear your

point of view on. So, I thank you for

joining me today, Jared. I'm thrilled to

be here to chat. And as a someone who's

been a space enthusiast since

kindergarten, whether it's through the

lens of commercial space or, you know,

the great space race from the 1960s or

NASA today, like these are all subjects

I get pretty charged up about. So, love

to chat about what inspired you to get

into space. You went to Embry Riddle

Aeronautical

University and you later became an

entrepreneur, but were you always kind

of obsessed with space and did you

always dream of doing what you got to do

last year, which is walk in space? Yeah,

so the this is all my parents fault.

They um they skimped out on a babysitter

as a kid and just put me in front of the

TV. So, uh, I was watching movies like

Top Gun, uh, The Rights Stuff, um, Space

Camp, the movie, you know, 1980s movie

where if you go to Space Camp, a robot's

going to launch you into space. This was

all stuff in like my elementary school

year. So, um, I mean, I told I just

showed it to my kids last week, by the

way. So funny that you say that. I I

pulled up Space Camp. I had to buy it

because it's not on any of the streaming

services to show it to my kids. Yeah.

Okay. I've been to Space Camp to like

speak to the students a number of times

and I ask them like, "All right, raise

your hands if you've seen the movie

Space Camp here and know who Jinx is and

like no one raises their hands and that

just goes to show I'm I'm old." So, so

you were always into it. Is is that what

you wanted to do to work in aeronautical

engineering or as a pilot or what were

you thinking of doing? Yeah, I mean so

kind of interesting start to the story.

I mean I um I started my day job which

is shift for you know it's a it's a

pretty large large fintech now when I

was 16 and I was just like most you know

as you know entrepreneurs you're you're

burning yourself out waking up on the

keyboard and you know I said I need a

hobby in life uh so I picked up my

passion for flying and I I I basically

had parallel careers you know in

aviation and in and in business and I

started flying air shows in uh in 2010

and 2011. 11 and I was flying with a

bunch of really talented ex-military,

even current military pilots and they

were like, you know, you could fly in

the, you know, in the Air National Guard

or the reserves and um and I found out,

well, wow, that's amazing. You can fly

fighter jets part-time and serve the

country. You need a college degree. I

never had one cuz I I started my

business at 16. So, that's actually why

I went back to why I went back to

school, went to Embry Riddle because

it's a I mean, it's an aviation school.

Uh I think it graduates um more Air

Force pilots every year than the Air

Force Academy. But anyway, that that's

ultimately why I I got my degree. But my

my pursuits kind of in parallel of of

business and aviation has existed, you

know, really since I was a teenager. So

you're running this business. So Shift

4, just for those who are listening, is

a payment processing company that is a

public company today, $8.5 billion

market cap. So you've built an

incredible business. And then on the

side, my understanding is you've flown

like 7,000 hours in fighter jets and

you've tried to beat the

circumnavigation record a couple of

times now. So, were you kind of going to

work and then on the weekends flying? I

mean, how did you kind of balance

running a company trying to do that

today while balancing this podcast? I

can tell you it's really hard to do that

and anything else. It's like how did you

how did you do that? Well, I mean, you

know, again, I started my business at

16. I started flying a couple years

after that. You know, this is before you

have a, you know, a family and other

responsibilities. So, like literally all

I was doing was working and flying.

Mostly flying at night, which was

great. You know, I did that around the

world record flight. Didn't get it in

08. Broke it broke that record in09. We

did it to raise funds for Makea-Wish

Foundation, which was which was cool.

And it was a great challenge. And then,

um, later on started flying air shows,

which was great. And you know, we did a

lot to raise money for Make a Wish

there. And then we we kind of took uh

the air show flying, which was just

maximum fun, super adrenaline, and was

like, we're we're doing loops and rolls

to music, you know, 10 ft off the

ground, 18 in between our wings. We

probably should pivot this to something

that keeps the fun factor up, but has

some commercial intent, also helps the

country. So, we started a a defense

company called Draen. We w up assembling

the world's largest fleet of fighter

jets, jets just like this behind me. And

we were professional bad guys for the

Department of Defense, the Air Force.

Like we would fly as aggressors just

like in Top Gun replicating Russian and

Chinese Iranian tactics. I literally I

mean I remember at Christmas parties in

you know 2014 2015 speaking to the to

the workforce I was like I hope you all

know next to commercial space and what

Elon's doing at SpaceX. This is the

second coolest company. Like we get to

be professional bad guys all the time.

It was awesome. So I again I've had two

awesome parallel careers. Um, but hey,

running two companies like nothing

compared to Elon. I think I I can't even

He's got to be up to like a half a dozen

CEO titles uh in parallel right now. Not

to mention trying to save the, you know,

the country um you know uh and get it

back on a good fiscal footing. So, it's

my my responsibilities are pale in

comparison. Well, so when did you first

meet Elon and how did you meet him? So,

it's interesting and I almost like

guarantee you wouldn't uh remember it.

Uh after well, first I think like in

early 2000. So, I started my fintech in

1999. I actually think we were on like

the same like uh old uh it was like a TV

show being interviewed um in the early

2000s and we that was probably the first

handshake. It was after we set the uh we

broke actually the uh I'm sorry we

didn't break the record. This was in

2008 the around the world record. We

came up short. Peter Demanis, Dr. De

Manis reached out and um asked if uh if

I wanted to go to Bikenor and see a

Soyuse launch with some of the uh kind

of early commercial space pioneers. I

remember, you know, all the Google

founders were on that

TU154, you know, Russian transport. I'm

like, man, if if this thing goes down,

you're you're wiping out a lot of like a

lot of brain power here because Sergey

Larry, Eric Schmidt was on it. And that

that was um it was coming back from

that. I think there was a charity poker

event or something at Elon's house in um

it was early days of of Tesla. So, I

think I met him again there, but but

really we you know, like we don't know

each other that well. I've only spoken

to him, you know, a couple dozen times

maybe over the years and almost entirely

related to my commercial space missions,

Inspiration 4 and Plaston. Oh, so you're

not like super close with him because I

think there's this narrative that you

and Elon have a secret, you know, deep

connection and he's one of your best

friends. And you know, that's kind of

like how how your hearing went when I

look on the some of the video clips of

how some of the senators were treating

you. They're like, "Oh, you're you're

doing this all for Elon. He's your best

friend."

Yeah, you know, the sen I think almost

every one of the senators on both sides

of the aisle made that assumption and

asked a lot of questions on that. And I

said, look, I Elon is one of the most

accomplished, if not the most

accomplished entrepreneur in modern

history. Every one of his companies sets

out to solve some of the greatest

engineering problems for all

humankind. Even his, you know, kind of

super selfless service to the to the

government of trying getting us back on,

again, like I said, sound fiscal

footing. Um, I admire a lot of what he

does, but but honestly, and I told the

senators, my connection is I I I paid

his company to go to space twice. And

look, if there was more than just SpaceX

out there offering the service and you

had competition, I probably would have

paid less. Like, it's like, so if

anything, I'm very pro competition in

this regard. And uh, you know, I don't

consider myself beholden to Elon at all.

I want to see all of commercial space

succeed. I'm I'm a huge space

enthusiast. Let's go through that. So,

you met Elon. Did you get involved as an

investor in SpaceX along the way? How

did the inspiration 4 mission come to

be? In uh 2020, uh I did hear that, you

know, SpaceX was doing another one of

its secondary rounds and I was connected

through, you know, I think it was city

and I w up speaking to the CFO at uh at

SpaceX and he's like, "No, look, the you

know, funding round is closed and um you

know, we're kind of pretty selective on

on who we let in." I was like, "Okay,

great. Well, hey, you know, back in

2008, I actually got the uh the first

offer to pilot the first Dragon

spacecraft, which is wild to think

about, like 2008. And um even if I can't

be an investor, you know, at some point

or another, I'd love to have an

opportunity. And he was like, well,

can't be an investor now, but we could

talk about uh a human spaceflight

mission. And I had no idea I was going

to have an opportunity to be the first.

I assumed there was a lot of people in

front. And um man, it was uh what a

privilege to be able to do that. Um be

part of mission design and select a crew

of inspiring individuals and raise a

quarter of a billion dollars for St.

Jude. And it was just a successful

mission. It helped open the door for a

lot of other commercial missions to

come. So awesome experience. So in 2021,

you commanded inspiration 4, which was

the first all civilian space flight

using the SpaceX Crew Dragon. Yep. And

that was just truly like a momentous

mission. It was just so beautiful to

watch. And I remember it was also like a

tough year because it was a year after

co. So it was so great to see that

happening. But I had assumed and I think

a lot of people had assumed that you

were like a big investor in SpaceX or

really tight. But it just happened

within a a one and a half year or year

period that you kind of went from, hey,

I'd love to put some money into SpaceX

to, oh, I can participate and command

inspiration for and get out there into

space. Like that's a year and a half

days. Like I like literally from that

phone call in, you know, October, um,

Inspiration 4 was born. A week or two

later, we did a like a ceremonial

signing at the uh at the Crew One

launch, which is wild, too. And it

speaks to the confidence of SpaceX that

they were ready to sign up for the first

commercial, like the first civilian

mission to orbit before they even

returned operational capability uh for

human space flight to NASA. Now, they

did demo two, of course, with with Bob

and Doug, but crew 1 had not flown when

SpaceX said, "We're going to get this

done." And then 10 months later, we were

in orbit, and it was an incredible

experience. And obviously, we followed

it up with a whole development program

with Polaris and um and flew a second

mission as well. So, yeah. So, just

going back, you said you were made, you

were given an offer to pilot a Crew

Dragon in ' 08. Is that correct? When

did that how did that happen? So it was

it was right after I came back from that

around the world flight and again I said

you know Dr. Dmanis reached out and uh

we met in the city and he was like you

seem to be like kind of thinking the way

we think uh in in terms of you know a

more exciting future in transportation

and and aerospace. Now of course his

interests cover everything from like

human life extension to he likes to

solve a lot of world problems too. Yeah.

And it was through those connections and

coming out to

Bikenor that I did get that uh I did get

that offer. I still have the agreement.

It was funny. I uh I showed it to some

of the SpaceX folks when we were talking

about Inspiration 4, but yeah. Amazing.

Yeah. Just knocked on the door every now

and then and got lucky in 2020. Um it

was certainly through the approach of

trying to be an investor, but it it

revisited old conversations and moved

very quickly. Kind of funny that a

banker called you from city and that led

to you. Oh, I called the banker. Oh, you

called the banker. They called the

banker trying to get the the a contact

uh like a a recent contact and that's uh

that's that's like hook me up. I want to

get in. That's crazy. Yeah. Okay. So

then you said hey that was a successful

mission. You had obviously a good

relationship with SpaceX and the

operations team there I'm assuming and

you said hey I'd like to come back and

like Polaris dawn was formed at that

time or did that come together later

just for the audience. So last what was

it

September you were the first private

citizen in human history to perform a

spacew walk which again another

incredible moment and you know I think

it was inspiring for people who realized

at that moment that perhaps you didn't

need to become an astronaut to be able

to walk in space. I mean it was really

just incredible. But how did the

continuation go from inspiration 4 to

Polaris dawn? Yeah and I I loved it. I

mean, Plaston was filled with we crammed

so many really incredible objectives in

five days uh on top of about 40 science

experiments. It was an awesome mission.

I'd love to tell you about it. And and

you know, but uh yeah, so when we came

back from Inspiration 4, I thought we

checked the box on every objective. I

mean, we navigated the whole, you know,

billionaire in in space thing, which at

the time with, you know, some of the

other, you know, missions that were

going off was um was attracting a lot of

a lot of heat and really focused it on

trying to to do good in the world that,

you know, we can make progress in space

and try and, you know, make the, you

know, mother earth a better place. And

we focused on raising a lot of money for

St. Jude. And um and anyway, like we did

and we did three days of science and

research experiments. It felt really

good and we were a little bit short on

our uh on our um you know our

fundraising goal for uh St. Jude. I mean

we we set out to raise over $200

million. We wound up raising $250

million but we were a little short and

we came back and I was like man we

almost got everything done and then Elon

sent a tweet right after Splashdown. 40

minutes after Splashdown and he said put

me in for 50 million. And he already had

put in five and we we we exceeded our

goal and I was like man we got

everything done. We set the bar high.

Maybe this is it. And um it was a couple

weeks later that I was invited to go to

Starbase. Uh this was the second time I

went. This was like October of 21. And

we sat down with a number of folks

including Elon. And we talked about, you

know, doing a um like a developmental

program where we actually can build

things and test things that hadn't been

done in a while. And I remember Elon,

he's like, "We we can build a suit. I

know exactly how I would do it. and

let's go up really high, you know, let's

get past the Gemini 11 record, go

farther into space than anyone's gone

since we last walked on the moon because

it's it's different. It's hard and we're

going to learn a lot. And that's what

you need to do when you want to inspire

people is not kind of do the same things

over and over again, but but do things

that are different and build up to an

even grander objective. And I was like,

"All right, I'm totally in." And we

contemplated other missions, you know, a

follow on to Polaris dawn and then the

first crude flight of Starship. But, uh,

the nomination came in and, you know,

had to put my my, uh, fun space career

on hold to to to for an incredible

opportunity to serve the country and

contribute to the world's greatest space

agency. So, let's get into that. How did

the

conversation lead to you becoming the

nominee to administer NASA? Were you in

conversations with Elon first? Is that

how this this kind of began for you? No.

So, and and I think like that's another

thing that, you know, almost every

senator wanted to ask is, you know, you

know, weren't weren't you Elon's guy in

this? Like I I have no doubt. I mean,

look, he he he helped the president win

the election. He he's was in Air Force

One, Marine One. He was at Mara Lago

throughout the campaign. I'm I'm I'm

sure he had inputs. I was getting text

messages from generals that I uh that I

got to know when I built, you know,

helped build that defense company,

Draen. Uh that's where we flew all the

fighter jets and and you know, they were

in now positions of influence and said,

"Would you like to serve in the in the

administration and and it wasn't even

just NASA. I mean, there were roles from

Treasury to uh the department, you know,

to the Air Force." And I was like, I am

honored to contribute anyway. you know,

I've had I've been, you know, relatively

apolitical, but if I've had one

political position that I've been

pounding the table on since I um since I

I was exposed to the defense industry at

Draen, it's the competitiveness of the

nation. And that's because I saw when we

were replicating, you know, enemy

tactics in 2015 in fighter jets, the gap

between our capabilities and the bad

guys was wide. And you felt very

confident and every year it started to

shrink. And it's like, what is going on

here? Why are we paralyzed? Why are we

slowing down while while the Chinese

especially are moving wicked fast? Um,

and I've spoken out about it from time

to time on where I think some of the

problems are and over consolidation of

the defense industry. So anyway, I I was

absolutely honored to have a chance to

serve. I'm sure Elon contributed into

the, you know, was supportive in it, but

it was a number of folks and I got a

call from Howard Lutnick, who was

leading the uh, transition team, and he

did a phone interview and the next thing

you know, like 40 hours later, I was at

Mara Lago. He said, "Hop on a plane.

Come out

here." Having a lot of friends of mine

who are serving in this administration,

your story sounds familiar that folks

that are close to this whole group that

was sitting at Mara Lago for several

weeks and months after the

election. I've heard a lot of similar

stories that folks got called saying,

"Hey, would you like to consider

something?" And it was very open-ended.

It's like we've gotten to know you. We

trust you. You're reliable. But most

importantly, we're looking for folks

that have experience and acumen in

operating a business, in understanding

how to manage at scale, and really have

a similar sort of belief system, I would

say, to the folks that that were

stepping in to run this administration.

So, I I do think what you're saying

sounds like what I've heard and makes a

lot of sense to me. Um, so so you then

fly out to Mara Lago. What was that

like? Oh man, that was so cool. I mean

it just happened so suddenly and I I

mean just you know kind of put together

uh a quick plan. Uh, at that point I

knew it was consideration for NASA

administrator, but I'll tell you in the

days leading up to it, I was hearing

everything from being at the Treasury

Department in various roles and to um,

you know, again to the Department of the

Air Force, but I knew it was NASA and I

was like, well, I got to I got to come

with a plan and uh, and I, you know, we

put together a one pager for the

president and it was a it was a great

interview. I mean, I never really met

him in person. and I shook his hand kind

of once in passing uh 10 plus years

earlier and the president was incredibly

knowledgeable. Um I was impressed. He

knew a lot about the space program which

makes sense. He I mean you know he

helped with commercial crew return

operational capability to the US with

with

Dragon. You know a big push on the

Artemis program created the space force.

He knew a lot he knew a lot about China.

Uh he kn we talked a lot about their air

force actually which I thought was

interesting. some of my my um you know

defense experience and uh it was

incredible. I mean it was an hour plus

long and I um I uh I came away with it

feeling uh you know really good about

the opportunity. Who coached you on your

one page there and what did it say?

Nobody coached me on it. It was it was

just I generally you know I've had an

opportunity to obviously interact with

NASA over the last I mean my my

commercial space career now goes on uh

well it'll be it'll be 5 years in a in a

couple months from when it began. And

you know during Polaris storm when we

were doing suit development spent a lot

of time at NASA using their chambers and

facilities had a lot of you know kind of

firsthand experience certainly Kennedy

Space Center. So I had a good starting

place and uh I think it really just

centered on look in in in this kind of

environment budgets aren't getting

bigger. Uh we do have to do more with

less. The agency is doing a lot of

littles a lot of things that other

agencies departments companies are

capable of doing. That's not why the

taxpayers fund NASA. Like NASA's funded

to do the near impossible that no one

else can do, not things that, you know,

companies should be doing for their own

competitiveness. You know, uh NASA helps

fund like engine efficiency programs for

you know um commercial jet engine

providers. It's like don't they need to

do that themselves or else they lose to

their competitors? Like why are we

funding this? So basically like an idea

to kind of go in stop a lot of the

littles that are not needle movers that

are not why the agency exists and

concentrate on the needle movers. So,

you know, that's leading in the high

ground of space. Uh, let's get let's,

you know, let's complete our our lunar

obligations cuz that's a whole another

story with with China. At the same time,

parallel the the, you know, parallel the

capabilities to get to Mars, help

commercial industry uh, develop the the

rapid reusable heavy lift capability

that allows us to go anywhere, pivot

from competing with industry to doing

what no company would ever do, which is

build nuclear spaceships. There's a lot

of advantages to it. nuclear electric

propulsion for sure. You know, we don't

have to worry as much about refilling.

It's hyperefficient transport of mass.

It opens up, you know, beyond Mars. And

and frankly, like look, it takes the

pressure off insitu resource

manufacturing. And if you are going to

do insitu resource manufacturing, you're

going to need nuclear power. And the

farther we get away from the sun, the

less reliant we are on solar. A lot of

reasons why that should not be a small

program in the lab right now doing light

bulbs, but should be a billion dollar

initiative. you know, figuring out the

space economy and uh increasing the rate

of world changing discovery. Those have

been my priorities. Uh it's what I told

briefed the president. It's what I went

through the Senate and the hearing on.

It's what we would have tried to

concentrate on if I got the job. There's

a lot in there we should

unpack. I want to just get your

perspective on the arc of NASA. You

know, NASA is a storied

institution, inspirational to many.

You and me the same. I still wear a NASA

hat with pride often, but you know, the

agency from an outsers's perspective

feels like it's become a lagard. It

feels like it's kind of lost a little

bit of its luster. Why is that? Do I

have that wrong? And if I don't, what

has happened to the administration of

the agency over the decades that's led

to this this moment? Well, I like you, I

love NASA, and I was so excited to to

contribute. I was honored that the

president nominated me. I mean, you've

got the best and brightest that show up

to work every day and want to win in the

high ground of space and I would have

been thrilled to work alongside him.

You're totally right. Everything about

it, even that just looking at the

insignia, how how damn inspiring it is,

but NASA's got problems and um but

that's that look that's not unique to

them. It's going to be governmentwide.

Whatever I tell you that I think is

wrong with NASA, I would guarantee it,

you know, is uh like, you know, it's

systemic across uh every government

agency and department. Uh the

bureaucracy is super real. No one's

gonna be surprised about that. You know

the you have dozens of layers of

leadership. Everybody's got a deputy. I

mean you know things that you know I

know like you know we know in business

that certainly Elon knows and instills

in his companies across commercial space

like ownership like you push ownership

down to the lowest levels. You empower

the smart people to make good decisions.

You know you give them the tools to make

those good decisions. You hold them

accountable when you get them wrong.

That does not exist inside NASA or the

government. There is so many layers of

management. Everybody's got a deputy.

It's crazy. I would have deleted all

that. Like not that not the people don't

need to go, but they need to, you know,

the the the amount of deputies,

assistants, associate assistant to the

deputy, the amount of committees, the

meetings with 200 people on them, the

review boards, like like all that needs

to go. You need so many more doers. And

there's a lot of them there. They're

really smart, but you you got to push

down uh you know, ownership to the

absolute lowest level. So you you got

this crushing bureaucracy that impedes

progress. And then and here's where

Congress plays a role. Every state's got

some equity that they care about and

they protect like hell and it impedes

the big progress. You know, like I I

tell you, I I love talking to all the

senators and the Senate was so fair to

me and and I know I would have had a lot

of great votes, but you talk to some

senators and they're like, you know, we

have a local rocket club that supports

these schools and NASA contributes it to

every year and I want to make sure that

continues. It's like, well, why can't

you do a car wash for the rocket club?

Like, this isn't huge dollars. Why can't

the community raise those funds? And

then you might say, well, what's wrong

with a couple rocket clubs, you know, to

inspire the kids all across the country?

Well, well, one turns to 10 turns to

thousands, and it becomes a distraction.

Those are parts to delete. Those are

resources that are draining away from

what every senator should care about,

which is how do we get to the moon, get

to Mars, and shock the world with, you

know, with with with world changing

headlines. That's what people are are

waiting for from NASA, you know, 100%. I

mean, man, what you're saying resonates

with me so much. It's not just NASA.

It's across the federal government. I've

spent enough time now interacting with

folks and meeting with folks and hearing

similar stories. It's just the chaos

that that builds with scale, with age,

with bureaucracy, with competing

interests that all have to be met and

you end up diluting everything away.

It's so frustrating to hear that. I

think this does play into um why China

is is really just moving at at lightning

speed right now. They have this immense

second mover advantage that is um that

is crushing across all technology. You

know when you had the Manhattan project

we uh we had the the technical knowhow,

the will and the resources to get

something done and we set up facilities

where we needed them. you know, Oakidge

and Lawrence Liverour and um you know,

like you know, you get um you put the

facilities where you need them and the

talent where you need them to execute on

the mission and everything builds up

logically to it and you and you deliver

a win. And we did the same thing with

the space program, you know, in the in

the in the 1960s. Well, now all of those

national labs and all and really

honestly a lot of the facilities within

NASA are doing lots of little things for

existence. Um and some of them are

relevant to the mission and some are

not. And when you try and do something,

you know, glorious now, you have to try

and repurpose those resources that are

super entrenched and they don't want to

necessarily move. And then, of course,

you have Congress that's protecting

their programs. China is literally doing

what we are do what we did, you know, in

the in the ' 40s and 60s and saying,

we're going to, hey, we're going to go

after fusion, um, or we're going to work

on next generation fifth gen nuclear

reactors. We're going to build sixthgen

fighter jets. And they put the

facilities where they belong with the

right people and resources. There's no

baggage. and they have this incredible

second mover advantage and they're able

to get things done at lightning speeds

because they don't have all that drag

and we have a lot of drag and again it's

not just NASA it's it's governmentwide

and do you think there's a way to fix it

without Congress or is the only way to

fix it without

Congress

meaning there needs to be no Congress if

we have a shot at fixing this and there

needs to be a different governing model.

Yeah. You know, look, I I think the uh I

think this is this is why I I absolutely

support the the president that, you

know, despite all I I mean, I my single

largest political donation ever was to

was to President Trump in this uh you

know, to support his inauguration. It's

why I got charged up with uh you know,

with Elon assembling the Doge team is

like we do have to shrink the

government. We do have to get rid of all

these inefficiencies, these the waste

and the distractions from the mission,

things that we don't need every taxpayer

contributing to and actually concentrate

those dollars, real dollars, on the

things that the taxpayers should be

fighting for. And when you do that, you

know what, like 20 billion or 25 billion

is actually a lot of money. And you

know, and I know like it's it's a super

tough budget environment right now. And

people people hate change, but I'm

always surprised when like a million is

not a million anymore and a billion is

not a billion because you do an awful

awful lot with that. So, if there was

ever a time to get this done, uh it's

now with President Trump with when he

has the House and the Senate behind him

and and I'm not surprised that there is

frustration from from people that were

really passionate um and and and are

still passionate when uh when this much

time goes by and we're not able to get

those things done that we thought we

we'd be able to. So, NASA's budget last

year, $25 billion. Break it down for us.

How is that money being spent?

what are the dimensions upon which you

would kind of categorize that budget?

Um, and we'll talk about kind of what's

going forward.

Yeah, I mean, look, I I think an

incredibly large portion of it is with

human space flight and uh and

specifically uh the Aremis program and

SLS and it's a lot of billions going to

a disposable rocket. It is billions that

when I you're talking so I mean I think

it's like five or 600% overrun to build

the mobile launcher 2 for the next

generation SLS. So sorry just tell us

what SLS is for the audience. That's the

space launch system I think or it's uh

they also call it the Senate launch

system I think and uh it's spread across

um a lot of dollars are spread across

some key states. Well just to give you

an idea so SLS is just repurposed

shuttle hardware. So, uh, and I don't

blame anyone for putting us down this

path because at the time you did not

have Blue Origin or SpaceX or any of

these other commercial companies doing

the things that are doing today, but

they were like, "Let's, uh, let's take

the shuttle program parts and put into a

program called Constellation, and let's

take the Constellation parts and put it

in a program called uh, SLS." And and

essentially, again, it's the it's it's

it's it's the same shuttle motors. It's

the same solid rocket boosters. You're

basically taking the tank and putting

Orion on top of it. Orion is 20 years

old, by the way. It hasn't flown humans

yet. And it's incredibly expensive and

very disposable, but it creates a lot of

jobs in certain states and um and it's

like at some and look, there's enough

hardware now to fly a couple missions

and make sure you beat China back to the

moon. But but you can't be stuck on this

forever. This is literally the

equivalency, by the way, of taking P-51

Mustangs from World War II and using

them in Desert Storm because uh we got

to keep the plants open. And that

obviously makes no no logical sense

whatsoever for factories that are making

this stuff that used to make landing

ships in World War II that made Saturn

rocket that pivoted to shuttle to SLS

and now to believe that you can't make

another pivot is is kind of crazy and

the right thing you should pivot towards

honestly is nuclear. I want to just talk

about the the Trump budget proposal for

NASA. So this is the NASA budget over

the history of NASA. And

the proposed budget would basically

create the lowest budget since

1961. So they're proposing to reduce the

overall budget from 25 billion a year

down to 19 billion a year. Were you part

of the conversation on building this

budget? And then I'll highlight some of

the features of this budget here in a

moment. But did did you um have

conversations with the administration as

this was being put together and some of

these proposals were being considered? I

mean, how how deep have you gone in

this? No, you know, when you're a

nominee, you're actually kept in the

dark on a lot of things. Um you do get

briefed on everything that's going on

with every center, you know, every major

program, things that senators could ask

you about from a um from like a

one-on-one perspective, but you're not

given access to sensitive information.

you almost need some deniability when

you're talking to senators on that or

else your nominations could get held up

really big time. So, I wasn't aware I

honestly uh I was voted out of

committee, you know, uh the commerce

committee by um you know, Senator Cruz

and and you know, 18 other it was 19

senators in total. And the next day, the

skinny budget came out. And if that

skinny budget had come out uh you know

again a day or two earlier I would I

would never have made it out of

committee because obviously as as I

think is playing out right now both

sides of the aisle are not happy about

the you know the budget. Okay. So, in

this budget, there's a proposal to

cancel

SLS and Orion, terminate numerous

robotic science missions, including the

Mars sample return mission. Mhm. Um,

probes to Venus, and several future

space telescopes. And it represents the

White House's desire to end the

development of a nuclear thermal rocket

engine. I guess having scrutinized this

budget, how do you react to what you see

being proposed? And does it solve what

you've identified as some of the

challenges in NASA? Or are those more

management challenges? Does budget

create a constraining force here that

fixes some of the issues with respect to

focus and concentration of capital into

the right projects for from your point

of view? Yeah, it's a it's a it's an

excellent question. So So first, like

look, the the the reduction the big

budget reduction is a great forcing

function for change. And I know there's

a lot of people that probably don't want

to don't want to hear that, but uh it is

true. That doesn't mean I would have

landed at 19 billion in this whole

thing, but I fully support uh the

president and uh with the goal of

shrinking the budget and and and and

getting back to responsible footing and

I do think billions can go a very long

way. So uh I will just start with that.

I I everything you just said

directionally is is is kind of in the

right direction. We've already got paid

for enough SLS hardware that if you were

to terminate for convenience now, you

got enough to launch like two or three

of them. It's enough to get you back to

the moon, check that box to make sure

that you don't have any economic or

scientific or national security reasons

to stay on the moon and and put your

energy much more towards um commercial

industry. Look, nuclear thermal uh

propulsion I'm not a fan of. I like

nuclear electric. Nuclear thermal to

test it, you're spewing radioactive

debris here on Earth. It's not going to

go over well to anyone and it doesn't

really solve your refueling problem. you

still need to top it off with hydrogen

in space if you want a reusable space

plug. So I don't like that either. And

and it's subscale. It's it's a fact.

It's a program that sits in a lab

forever. Like what you need in nuclear

electric I'm passionate on the subject

is you you need us to get back to the

good old days. Like we went from the

atomic bomb in 1945 to laying the keel

on the nautilus in 1951. Five six years.

We didn't keep it in a lab forever. We

said, you know what, we're going to do

big bold things. And that's what we need

to be doing with uh in space with when

it comes to uh to nuclear. Look, a lot

of the science programs I'm huge fans of

Mars sample return. The best thing to do

is when the astronauts get there to

bring the samples home. Why would we

spend billions to send a robotic

mission? We can put that into commercial

industry and accelerate their timeline.

So, I'm not I I wasn't a fan of a pure

robotic mission on that one. And you

know, a lot of the big science programs

I want to see James Webs and Hubble

telescope programs launching annually,

if not more. Um, flagship programs

definitionally are billion dollar spends

and if you spend a billion then you got

to get it right and that means lots of

requirements and and and we can't take

unnecessary risk and a billion becomes a

three billion program and it's never on

time. Like we should be challenging the

best and brightest. Give me 10 $100

million missions a year. Let's try that

and let's accept that three fail and get

act you know I was going to introduce

like time to science as a KPI like how

why don't why do we accept things taking

10 years when they could be a year even

the decal process of of prioritizing

scientific missions over a 10-year span

is kind of insane 100% 100% and I I

think a lot of people hear budget cuts

and I I hear this on the NIH side as

well now that the administration and

budget cutting is going to take lives

people going lose lives. We're going to

lose science. This is an anti-science

agenda. But the if you can get more

efficient with how you deploy capital

and how you manage the deployment of

that capital and the utilization of that

capital, you actually accelerate

science. You accelerate outcomes and you

improve the condition and the prosperity

for humanity and for America. And it's

completely a misdirected statement when

people say that a budget cut is an

anti-science movement. It's about

finding the right places so that you get

more outcomes and redeploy in a smarter,

more efficient way. It drives me nuts. I

just see it, you know, all over uh right

now. That's just I mean it's just

politics. I do think overfunding leads

to complacency, leads to bureaucracy,

which actually leads to a slowdown in

discovery, a slowdown in invention, a

slowdown in progress. Anyway, I'm sorry

for my rant. I agree. Look, as I mean,

as entrepreneurs, we know like some of

our probably best decision-m is always

when we were running low on cash. So,

um, you know, it kind of drives

efficiency and, uh, it is a, you know,

necessity, mother of all invention

there. Yeah. Look, I think that's just a

product of some of our and I'm not

familiar with any of the NIH or and I'm

I'm not pretending to go deep on that at

all. Just I do think this is kind of a

product of of of the politics of our

time. It's a very divided country. You

know, people have to take an opposing

view and and and go to extremes. People

will die over over this. But the

government is terrible capital

allocators. Come on. We should all know

that. And you know we should as

taxpayers we should be contributing to

the things that no one else is willing

to do where there is no good business

use case or or economic model you know

it is in you know if competition is

working they can solve a lot of problems

and we should put our energy to what

they won't solve. Um and and look I

think Katzios by the way in science he's

a great leader. I I've spoken to him a

bunch of times. Um you know he he's not

a quag. He doesn't think wild things

like that. He he wants you know the

golden age of science and discovery. I'm

fair. Yeah. Good science. Yeah.

Absolutely. Well, let's talk about

Artemis. I think this is a big piece

that that the American public doesn't

fully gro that we have this effort and

maybe you can just lay out for us the

case for Artemis. Lay out for us the

case for Mars. Tell us about the

relationship between the two and the

timelines. Sure. And why Yeah. Why are

we doing them? Let's just say I I am in

the return to the moon camp. doesn't

mean like uh you know I and I'm I know

that you know Elon is very focused on on

Mars and he has a lot of great reasons

why including just the survival of our

species. I mean the long term it is the

right move. I remember um during my

hearing uh one senator was really

grilling me a lot of like what really

what's the difference between you know

moon and Mars and uh you know isn't

moons a stepping stone. I'm like well

one's a planet you know and uh you know

it has an atmosphere and if you looked

at the moon it doesn't look pretty. I

mean, it's getting beat up all the time.

It has no protection from, you know,

from solar radiation. So, reality is

like you should go to the moon if it

because for 35 years we said we were

going to. And I think that's very

important. You know, we it's it's it's

very late in the game to say, well, we

did it in the 60s and early 70s. You

know, that would have been the fine

position to state the entire time that

we've done it and we're moving on. But

we didn't. For 35 years, we said we're

going back and we spent over a hundred

billion of taxpayer dollars saying we

were going to do it. And for us not to

be able to do it now and watch China do

it. Like I said, it's it signals a far

greater disease across our our

government and and how our system

operates. And I don't think we want that

reckoning. So look, we paid for the

hardware anyway. We let's let's go back,

but let's parallel going to Mars. So

that's what Artemis is really about. I

mean, you can say Artemis is about Mars,

too, but that's like 100 years down the

line. And like I said, it's a giant

disposable rocket program that

repurposes shuttle hardware. It's

incredibly expensive. We signed up a lot

of international partners to support it

because we like collecting flags. Um,

and it doesn't necessarily always mean

that what they're contributing to is in

the best interest of the program. Case

in point, you know, we had, you know,

gateway man like this is going down a

rabbit hole of a lot of things because

of the shortcomings of the vehicle, but

it's expensive. It's disposable. it is

not the way to do uh affordable,

repeatable, efficient exploration

whether it's to moon, Mars or anywhere

else. So let's get it done and then

focus on the on the right way to go

about doing this so that we're not

seeing people walk on the moon every 5

years or something crazy that it's

happening all the time which is what we

get excited about. What is there to do

on the moon? Why should we go back? What

is the purpose? I think, you know, it's

it's it's almost like a, you know, if

you're going to go and commit yourself

uh take risks in a in a conflict, you

know, you want clear objectives. And in

my mind, again, aside from the fact that

the hardware is already essentially

purchased, it's clear objectives. Is

there any economic, scientific, or

national security reasons to be here?

And I don't think we can say that

conclusively right now that that there

are none. and China is going uh and if

they were to find something even a small

probability a 1% let's just say

hypothetically it's helium 3 and and

they're going to usher in a new form of

power. Think about how many conflicts

that we've had over the last century

over uh over sources of power over

energy. Do we want to get that one

wrong? And and are we willing to take a

1% chance and and that could shift the

balance of power here on Earth? I don't

think so. And we said we were going to

do it for 35 years and we and we spent

100 billion of taxpayer money. Like I

said, the hardware is there. But I think

you do it. You make those

determinations. Is there scientific,

economic or national security reason to

be here? And if not, you move on. And if

companies like Blue Origin and SpaceX

and even Rocket Lab are successful with

their vehicles, you're going to have

like the optionality to go to the moon.

It's not the Delta V is a negligible

difference between whether you're going

to the moon or Mars. And we should

colonize Mars. We should build a colony

on Mars. I think we need to go there. Um

and by going there it is a it is the

first step on a far grander journey you

know and uh you know I I I you know Elon

is obviously very passionate about it

occupy Mars like he knows it's not the

perfect destination there's nothing like

you can you know it's unlike anything in

in Earth's history you know people say

it's analoges to you know the explorers

of the 1400s or putting people in like

those shipping containers for six months

and saying we know how to live on Mars

it's you know you could work

your whole life on Mars and you still

live in a bubble

You know, so it's not like it's not

going to be an easy way of life, but it

is a step in the right direction. Like

our destiny is out and among the stars.

Like we will inevitably learn something

out there that's going to change our

thinking and we it's going to it's going

to create a a craving for that knowledge

and we are going to want to continue to

go out and explore and learn even more.

Mars is the best stop first step on that

journey. So, let's talk about getting

there and achieving some of the other

missions that we might have as a

country, as a

species, and the relationship with

private

industry. Elon believes he can get

payload into orbit for $10 per kilogram

with the Starship platform, which is,

call it a roughly 100x reduction in

cost. Yeah. Um maybe more. Maybe from

some from a depending on the point at

which you're measuring it, maybe a

thousandx reduction in cost. And that

unlocks the potential to do these things

in an economically viable way. Going to

the moon, going to

Mars.

Why shouldn't NASA be more fully

embracing of this private industry

capability? Is it because it's Elon or

is it because it reduces money going to

defense contractors? What is the

motivation against going all in on this

company SpaceX or companies like it that

have built these competencies that would

have been unfathomable just a few

decades ago but are real here today? Oh,

this is such a a deep conversation. Uh

so, um look, I I one thing I'd say is

like I obviously I love SpaceX and they

safely put me into space twice on two

awesome missions, brought me home and

I'm cheering them on. I I'm I'm happy

what SpaceX is doing. I'm thrilled about

the investments that Blue Origin's

doing, that Rocket Lab is doing, you

know, uh Firefly. So, it's a look, we

have a great industry. So, the broader

question is just why isn't why isn't

NASA leaning more into commercial? Well,

look, it's NASA's foresight that gave

birth to the commercial crew program

that enabled even me to go to space. So,

like they are thinking in that

direction, but there are politics in

play. The nice thing is is those winds

are shifting uh throughout my you know,

whole confirmation process. you know,

you are educated heavily by some very

smart political folks. Uh they sherpa

you around every senator and they were

like, look, the, you know, a year ago,

two years ago, the idea of talking to

senators that are in SLS states and

convincing them we need to be looking a

little bit more to the future with

commercial and maybe pivoting to things

like nuclear propulsion would be a

non-starter. And I'll tell you, they

were very reasonable. uh all of them

were very reasonable that they know that

you're you know this this rocket built

on 60-y old technology that's $4.5

billion a launch has an expiration date.

So I do think like that ship is turning.

It's just this isn't like a this isn't a

speedboat. The government, you know,

it's a it's turning like it's a giant,

you know, shipping container. It turns a

half a degree like a year and uh and

that's not obviously fast enough for a

lot of us. Um but I would say it's

moving in that uh that direction. And

then NASA also has to, you know,

repurpose its resources on things that a

SpaceX or Blue Origin won't do. They're

not going to put a rock, they're not

going to build a nuclear reactor and

launch it. Uh you're not going to get

the indemnities for that. Even shipping

highlyenriched uranium is a nightmare.

That is what the government should be

doing. Like so NASA should be doing what

the commercial industries can't. And

that by the way takes so much stress off

a company like SpaceX trying to get to

Mars. Like if you can minimize the

number of space-based refueling or the

insitu resource manufacturing, look,

even when a starship gets to Mars,

you're betting on like you know a 100

consecutive miracles happening to top to

mine propellant there and bring it back.

NASA should be helping. The government

should be helping with that because it

it creates a lot of other optionality.

We can have you know nuclear battle

stars in lower Earth orbit um you know

as part of uh Golden Dome. There's a lot

of reasons why you know it's not all

SpaceX all commercial versus NASA. both

totally. So just to compare last week

Space Epoch, a Chinese rocket company

completed its first sea recovery test.

So much like we saw a few years ago with

SpaceX, they had a vertical launch and

they landed back in the ocean about 125

second flight. The key question a lot of

folks are now asking, has China caught

up? Is this a space race? Why does it

matter? Because isn't space big enough

for everyone?

I mean the space is the ultimate high

ground and the high ground has mattered

you know it's had tactical and strategic

significance since like the beginning of

humankind. It matters. I was grateful to

have the opportunity to lead you know

the peaceful exploration uh of space but

it's not all peaceful like we we we

can't be naive to the fact that it has

been

weaponized and you know China leading in

this domain makes a difference. Um there

are things of scientific and economic

and again national security value out

there and we we can't we have to lead we

can't fall behind. If we fall behind we

may never catch up. So and I am

concerned about that uh you know China

moving closer to reusability. They

launch the second most uh orbital

rockets every year without reusability.

Uh you know thank goodness for for

SpaceX or or we definitely be already

behind in that regard. So um I am

concerned about it. It it it honestly it

is a race and like yeah we we the domain

is vitally important we can't fall

behind. So that gives them the high

ground with respect to weapons systems

with respect to observational platforms

sensors etc. Right. Yeah. Okay. So so

let's talk a little bit about your

nomination. You seem I would give you my

vote. You should be the administrator of

NASA. It would be amazing. Um thanks.

You testified in front of the Senate

committee on April 9th. I think it was a

19 to9 vote to move you out of

committee. Yes. Then there were reports

going into this weekend that you were

going to

be voted on by the full Senate this week

and the estimates were you were going to

get 70 confirmation votes or that was

some news report I had read. So it seems

like you were going to fly right through

and administer NASA. Um so then what

happened? So I I mean I got a call um

Friday of last week that um you know the

uh the president has decided to go into

a uh go in a different direction. Uh it

was a um uh it was a real bummer and I

uh I know like a number of parties in

government need to be notified of that

which um you know I expected to kind of

have just a peaceful weekend and the

next thing I knew on Saturday you know

it was uh there was a lot of activity on

the internet but maybe that's just like

my perspective cuz I follow space uh and

and such but it was certainly uh you

know disappointing but uh you know the

president needs to have you know his

person that you know he counts on to to

fulfill the agenda And

um yeah, I uh the person that called

you, what was what did they tell you was

the reason the president was withdrawing

his nomination? Uh just said the

president had decided to go in a

different direction. We all serve at the

pleasure of the president. Um now I mean

I started to get some more details as it

went on. I honestly also like I'm not

like I don't like play dumb on this. I I

had a pretty good idea of um you know

that um you know I don't think that the

timing was much of a coincidence uh that

you know there was other changes going

on the same day and uh you know it was

kind of uh obviously a little bit of a a

disappointment. So are you referring to

Elon?

I I just you know there was uh obviously

there was more than more than one you

know departure that was covered on that

day and um it became uh you know at

least from what I what I've heard that

it was uh there was a um you know there

was and I'm just you know I read the

news same as everybody else but I you

know had obviously was in the in DC for

the last 6 months getting ready that you

know there were some people that um you

know that had some axes to grind I guess

and uh and I was a a good visible

uh target. I know that like the the news

talks a lot about like that, you know,

Democratic donations is the cause. Um

that was not a new development. You just

Google, you can they're all public. The

New York Times published an article

saying that President Trump knew about

your Democratic donations in the past

when you received the nomination. So

that was actually not news according to

the New York Times that that was well

understood, well covered. So kind of put

the kibos on that explanation. So what

are the axis to grind or the access to

grind with Elon? Are there kind of two

factions? Whatever you can kind of

provide some color on, I think it would

be really helpful to understand because

there's a lot of speculation going on

right now and I would say some folks are

really disappointed in some of the

transitions that are taking place and

some folks are really trying to grock it

and understand it. So anything you can

do to help folks understand would be,

you know, I think helpful. You know,

first I just I want to be overwhelmingly

clear. I I I don't fault the the

president at all. I fully support him

that you know the president of the

United States you know the leader of the

free world makes a thousand decisions a

day with seconds of information. He's

got to get a lot more right than wrong.

Um so I don't I mean you know I don't

blame you know an influential adviser

coming in and saying look here's the

facts and I think we should kill this

guy and the president's got to make a

call and move on. Um I think that's

exactly uh you know kind of how it went.

Um it was not the Senate at all. Uh you

don't get floor time by the way. uh you

know there's a hundred nominees that are

like waiting for floor time. The only

way you get floor time is when a lot of

senators you know call Senator Thoon and

say this is our guy and we got to move

him along. That's how you know it's like

a high you're going to get a high vote

count. So the Senate was very fair,

really nice. I I enjoyed that

experience. I you know I think you you

got one person um and I don't know the

history on like what the trigger was or

wasn't but um you know decided to to

kind of make a move and again I don't

fault the president for it at all but

you know look in in in terms of

donations I I've always been you know

somewhat of a moderate I actually like I

am like a right leaning I I I do support

you know the president's agenda that's

why I made as big of a donation as I did

to his cause. Let me just ask for

clarity. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. I was

just going to say like when you fill out

your questionnaire for the Senate

committee, which is public, it asks you

to list every donation. Before you go in

front of a single senator, before you do

a hearing, you do these um prep sessions

at the White House where people pretend

to be senators and they prep you on the

donation question. So like that wasn't

new news. Might have been new to the

president at that, you know, might have

refreshed his memory perhaps, but uh

that I don't I don't think that was the

cause. I think the media has got it

pretty accurate.

So, was this a shot at Elon by someone

that is anti- Elon?

I mean, you know, people can draw their

their own conclusions, but I I think the

direction that people are going is um or

thinking on this seems seems to check

out to me. And what is the root of that?

Is it vested interest in spending that

Elon is advocating gets cut? Is it

diametrically opposed philosophical

points of view on the role of

government? What is the root anti- Elon

sentiment?

that is kind of on the other side of the

equation here. Do you think I mean I

think that the uh the people

overwhelmingly voted for the president

to go in and shrink the government and

bring about change and get rid of fraud,

waste and abuse of which I am a

thousand% behind the president and I I

believe that that's what you know Elon

and Doge was working towards. But people

also hate change. Like we all know this

and um you know people can uh be very

protective of their empire and you know

when somebody comes in you know Elon's

got a playbook and I think he knows how

to get things done. And I and I I think

you know in a lot of respects that um

that rub some people or you know what I

think that was one of you know or um had

some axes to grind. I don't know. And uh

and um you know we're just waiting. I I

I don't I you know I don't want to

speculate on all this but yeah. No, I

mean, um, I think that that you've said

enough and I I

guess you've seen the tweets from Elon

today where he was pretty negative about

the House bill that is being labeled the

big beautiful bill, making the case that

it's actually going to drive up a

government deficit to over two trillion,

two half trillion dollars a year. It

doesn't make deep enough cuts. There's a

lot of pork in there, a lot of wasteful

spending in there. And then the House

Speaker today responded to Elon saying,

"Hey, we've still got a recision bill

coming. We've still got an appropriation

bill coming where we're going to start

to fix the budget." But clearly Elon is

now getting vocal about his point of

view on this. Have you spoken with him

at all about what's going on and

government spending and his kind of take

on things as he's walked out of the

office there? Well, you know, as you

know, I kind of mentioned, I told the

Senate, too, like I've only spoken to

Elon, you know, I don't know, a couple

dozen times, most of which related to

human space flight missions, but when I

was talking to him towards the end of

last year, it it was all on government

efficiency related programs. And I think

Elon got a lot of people excited about

Doge u by making like one simple point.

The interest rate on the national debt

exceeds, you know, the DoD budget.

that's scary and it's getting worse and

we can't spend our way out of this

problem. Um, which we've grown a habit

to doing and I know he's very passionate

about it and um, you know, he sacrificed

a lot along with all the others you know

at Doge to try and bring about some

significant you know spending cuts and

then you know to see a bill come in you

know uh whatever 1,200 pages or so that

you know adds you know to the deficit I

think was pretty you know pretty

disheartening. Uh I suspect I mean I'm

not I'm not um you know I'm not in this

uh in this fight and I think like trying

to codify like you know a handful of

billions in cuts probably is you know a

drop in the in the bucket. So I can't

imagine that's too exciting.

You think he's going to get more vocal?

I I I don't I wouldn't presume to know

what goes on through his mind. Like I

said, I think he spends a lot of time

trying to solve a lot of world's

problems and and a problem for this

country and I think a lot of people

agree with it is that the um you know

this national debt is just getting way

out of hand. I mean, this has been my

case for about four years that if we

don't fix this, it eventually becomes an

intractable death spiral. And uh when

that happens, all of the wrangling we're

doing over budget, priorities, programs,

interests,

jobs are no longer

possible. It's like you're trying to

rearrange the deck chairs on the

Titanic. You don't get the choice of

what programs to fund when there is no

funding. And that's the unfortunate

iceberg we're running into. Do you think

Doge is dead? Any point of view on that?

I mean, it was interesting. You know,

obviously there was kind of the grand

exit uh this past week and then I don't

know, at least in my Twitter feed, I try

and follow a lot of the cabinet

secretaries. You know, they were all

coming out and saying, you know, Doge is

alive and well embedded inside the I you

know, I think it was more implying that

like, you know, we're going to clean

house. We're going to take care of our

own house as opposed to letting other

people help us do it. Problem is, like

we haven't been very successful at that

historically. So, I suspect going into

the midterms, people don't want to, you

know, let the other side be pounding the

table on Doge. So, I I don't know. I

mean, I look, I was I've been an

outsider nominee, so I have no idea how

it'll play out, but I I I I think that

some I imagine some people in the

government want to see it go quiet late

in the

night. Is there a deep state? And does

the deep state's like, is it too big to

break? You know, I don't I don't I don't

like know what I would classify a deep

state or not. Like there are there are

there is an absolutely bloated

bureaucracy that uh hates change uh gets

very entrenched that is happy to ride

out uh political appointees like you

know what you're gone in three four

years or you know you're or dead before

you even arrive in my case uh we'll wait

you out. So, I think there's some of

that uh and then I think there's some of

that in with actual, you know, uh

politicians and political appointees

that um uh advocate like hell for the

status quo. And some of it might be good

intended because they're just afraid of

what comes next. And you know, why um

why take a risk when you've got

something right now that supposedly

works? And I ask like, you know, what

what if that what if that comes at the

competitiveness of the nation and our

economic security? What if we get it

wrong because you weren't willing to

take some risk and and make changes? Um,

so I don't think they're necessarily all

evil, by the way. I just think some

people get very comfortable in the

status quo.

Are you going to go back to space?

I um I don't know. You know, this is

like the first time in 26 years that

I've been, you know, really kind of out

of work. Uh I'm sure I'm definitely

going to go back and help Shafor. I

won't ever rob my CEO of his

well-deserved, you know, title now. I

I'll probably be an exec chair or

something. And, you know, I got to work.

I got to have a mission. Um, but I'll

find something to to contribute to. And

man, I I love uh I love flying and I

love space and I like the philanthropic

efforts we've been doing with St. Jude.

So, I'll keep busy. Amazing. Well, look,

you're you've been, if nothing, Jared,

an inspiration to many. Uh, I appreciate

your commitment to service, your

commitment to charity, your commitment

to discovery, and uh, I want to thank

you for the time today. It's been really

great talking with you. Thank you. Oh,

thank you. I, uh, I appreciate having

the opportunity to chat.

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