great job nabal you rocked it maybe I

should have said this on air but that

was literally the most fun podcast I've

ever recorded oh that's on air cut that

in yeah put it in the show put it in the

show I had my theory on why you were

number one but now I have the

realization what's the actual reason you

know us for a long time yeah what was

your theory what's a reality my theory

was that my problem with going on

podcast is usually the person I'm

talking to is not that interesting

they're just asking the same questions

and they're dialing it in and they're

not that interested it's not like we're

having a peer level actual conversation

so that's why I wanted to do air chat

and Clubhouse and things like that cuz

you can actually have a conversation I

see right and what you guys have very

uniquely is four people you know of whom

at least three are intelligent I'm

kidding how could you say that isn't

here what SX isn't even hearing you say

that that is so cold best right these

three are intelligent and all of you get

along and you can have an ongoing

conversation that's a very high hit rate

normally in a podcast you only get one

interesting person and now you've got

three maybe four right okay so that to

me was why Su and by you're talking to

is number four we don't know she remain

mysterious forever of the four right the

problem is like if you get people

together to talk two is a good

conversation three possibly four is the

max that's why in a dinner table at a

restaurant four top right you don't do

five or six because then exp splits into

multiple conversations so you had four

people who were capable of talking right

that I thought thought was a secret but

there's another secret the the other

secret is you guys are having fun you're

talking over each other you're making

fun of each other you're actually having

fun so that's why I'm saying this is the

most fun podcast I've ever been on and

that's that's why you'll be welcome back

anytime no all welcome back yes

absolutely in three smart

[Music]

guys I can't even believe you'd say that

about sax he's not even here to defend

himself sorry David

let your winners

[Music]

ride we open sources to the fans and

they've just gone crazy with

[Music]

it all right everybody welcome back to

the number one podcast in the world

we're really excited today back again

your sultant of science David

freeberg what do you got going on there

freeberg what's in the background

want I used to play I used to play a lot

of a game called Sim Earth on my

Macintosh LC way back in the day that

tracks yeah that tracks and of course

with us again your chairman what games

did you play growing up J actually I'm

kind of curious did you ever play video

games let's say Andrea Allison uh Susan

I mean it was like a lot of cute girls I

was out dating girls freeberg yeah I was

not on my Apple tun playing civilization

let me find one of those pictures of who

whoa don't get me in trouble Man the 80s

were ' 80s were good to me in Brooklyn

rejection the video

game yes you have three lives rejected

rejected it's a numbers game chamal as

you know as you well know it is a

numberous game yeah Nick go ahead pull

up uh pull up Rico Suave here oh no what

is this one instead of playing video

here I am no the80s that's fat that's

fat J you want get

Nick help out help out your unle yeah

here he is out slaying help out your

uncle with the VIN Jak C you know what

he was sling in there snack yeah you

pric and post asmic right correct and

weightlifting beef

jerky go find my Leonardo decaprio

picture please and replace my fat jow

picture with that thank you oh God I was

fat man plus 40 lbs is a lot heavier

than I it's no joke it's no joke 40b a

lot I there's so many great emo photos

of me I'm proud of you thank you my man

thank you my man if you want a good can

you get through the intros please so we

can start come on quick how you doing

brother how you doing chairman

dictator you

good all right all right we're really

excited today today for the first time

on the Allin podcast the Iron Fist of

Angel list the zenik mage of the early

stage he has such a way with words he's

the socer te of nerds please welcome my

guy Namaste Nal how you doing the intros

are back that is the best intro I've

ever gotten I didn't think I don't I

didn't think you could do that that was

amazing that's your super power right

there lock it in quit Venture Capital

just do that absolutely that's actually

you know what interestingly number one

podcast in the world like someone said I

mean that's what I'm manifesting it's

getting close we've been in the top 10

so I mean the weekends are good for all

in this this one will hit number one

this one will go vir I think it could if

you have some really great piffy

insights we might go right to the top I

just got to do a seile and it'll go

viral oh no oh no are you gonna send us

your heart my heart goes out to you my

heart I I end here at the heart I don't

send it out I keep it right here I put

both hands on the heart and I hold it

nice and stady I hold it in it's sending

out to you but just not explicitly all

right for those of you who don't know

Naval was an entrepreneur uh he kicked a

bit of ass he got his ass kicked and

then he started Venture

hacks and he started emailing folks and

saying you know 20 15 20 years ago maybe

15 here are some deals in Silicon Valley

he went around he started writing 50k

100K checks he hit a bunch of home runs

and he turned Venture hacks into Angel

list and then he has invested in a ton

of great startups uh maybe give us some

of the greatest hits there

Dev yeah Twitter Uber notion bunch of

others um Postmates you to me lot of

unicorns buch up coming I it's actually

a lot of deals at this point but

honestly I'm not necessarily proud of

being an investor investor to me is a

side job it's a hobby so I do startups

how how do you define

yourself I don't I mean I guess these

days I would say more like building

things you know every

every so-called career is an evolution

right and all of you guys are

independent and you kind of do what

you're most interested in right that's

the point of making money so you can

just do what you want so these days I'm

really into building and crafting

products so I built one recently called

airchat it kind of didn't work I'm still

proud of what I built and got to work

with an incredible team and now I'm

building a new product and this time I'm

going into Hardware oh and I'm just

building something that I really want I

I'm not it all yourself Nal

partially I bring investors along last

time they got their money back previous

times they've made money next time

hopefully they'll make a lot of money

it's good to bring your friends along

I'll be honest I love that you said I

love the product but it didn't work not

enough people say that yeah I know I I

built a product that I loved that I was

proud of but it didn't catch fire and it

was a social product so it had to catch

fire for it to work so I found the team

great homes they all got paid the

investors that I brought in got their

money back and I learned a ton which I'm

leveraging into the new thing but the

new thing is much harder the new thing

is hardware and software and what did

you what did you learn building in 2024

and 20125 that you didn't know maybe

before then the main thing was actually

just the craft the craft of pixel by

pixel designing a software product and

launching it I guess the main thing I

took away that was a learning was that I

really enjoyed building products and

that I wanted to build something even

harder and something even more real and

I think like a lot of us I'm inspired by

Elon and you know all the incredible

work he's done so I don't want to build

things that are easy I want to build

things that are hard and interesting and

I want to take on more technical risk

and less Market risk this is the classic

VC learning right which is you want to

build something that if people get it if

you can deliver it you know people will

want it and it's just hard to build as

opposed to you build it and you don't

know if they want it so that's a

learning air chat was a lot of fun for

those of you who don't know it was kind

of like a social media Network where you

could ask a question and then people

could respond and it was like an

audio-based Twitter would you say that

was the the best way to describe it

audio Twitter asynchronous AI

transcripts and all kinds of AI to make

it easier for you

translation really good way for kind of

try to make podcasting type

conversations more accessible to

everybody cuz honestly one of the

reasons I don't go on podcast I don't

like being intermediated so to speak

right where you sit there and someone

interviews you and then you go back and

forth and you go through the same old

things I just want to talk to people I

want peer relationships kind of like you

guys have running here nval what

happened when you went through that

phase there was a period where it just

seemed like something had gone on in

your life and you just knew the answers

you were just so grounded it's not to

say that you're not grounded now but

you're you're less active posting and

writing but there was this period where

I think all of us were like right what

does nval think oh really oh okay that's

USS to be I would say it would be like

the late teens the early 20s Jason you

can correct me if I'm getting the dates

wrong but it's been that moment where

like these Naval isms and this sort of

philosophy really started to I think

people had a tremendous respect for how

you were thinking about things I I'm

just curious like what were you going

through something in that moment or like

oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's right no

very insightful yeah 20 so i' I've been

on Twitter since 2007 cuz I was an early

investor but I never really tweeted I

didn't get featured I had no audience I

was just doing the usual techie guy

thing talking to each other and then I

started Angelus in 2010 the original

thing about matching investors to

startups didn't scale it was just an

email list that exploded at early on but

then just didn't scale so we didn't have

a

business and I was trying to figure out

the business and at the same time I got

a letter from the Securities and

Exchange Commission saying oh you're

acting as an unlic broker dealer and I'm

like what I'm not making any money I'm

not I'm just making intros I'm not

taking anything it's just a public

service but even then they were coming

after me so I wasn't and I'd raised a

bunch of money from investors so I was

in a very high stress period of my life

now looking back it's almost comical

that I was stressed over but at the time

it all felt very real the weight of

everything was on my shoulders

expectations people money regulators and

I eventually went to DC and got the law

change to legalize what we do which

ironically enabled a whole bunch of

other things like icos and incubator

days and so on demo days but in that

process I was in a very high stress

period of my life and I just started

tweeting whatever I was going through

whatever realizations I was happening

it's only in stress that you sort of are

forced to grow and so whatever internal

growth I was going through I just

started tweeting it not thinking much of

it and it was a mix of there are three

things that I kind of always kind of are

running through one is I love science

you know I'm an amateur love physics

let's just leave it at that I love

reading a lot of philosophy and thinking

deeply about it and I like making money

right truth Love and Money that's my

joke on my Twitter bio those are the

three things that I keep coming back to

and so I just started tweeting about all

of them and I

think before that the expectation was

that someone like me should just be

talking about money stay in your lane

and people had been playing it very safe

and so I think the combination of the

three sort of caught people's attentions

because every person thinks about

everything we don't just stay in our

Lane in real life we're dealing with our

relationships we're dealing with our

relationship with the universe we're

dealing with what we know to be true and

you know with science and how we make

decisions and how we figure things out

and we're also dealing with a practical

everyday material things of how to deal

with our spouses or girlfriends or wives

or husbands and how to make money and

how to deal with our children so I'm

just tweeting about everything I just

got interested in everything I'm

tweeting about it and a lot of it my

best stuff was just notes to self it's

like hey don't forget this how to get

rich remember that one how to get rich

that like one theads and super Yeah Bang

Yeah Yeah Yeah I think that is still the

most viral threat ever on Twitter I like

Timeless things I I like philosophy I

like things that are still apply in the

future I like compound interests if you

will in

ideas obviously recently X has become so

addictive that we're all checking it

every day and elon's built the perfect

for you he's built Tik Tok for nerds and

we're all on it but normally I try to

ignore the news obviously last year

things got real we all had to pay of

attention to the news but I just like to

tweet Timeless things I I don't know I

mean people pay attention sometimes they

like what I write sometimes they they go

non ler on me but yeah the how to get

rich sweet storm was a big one is it

problematic when people now meet you

because the the hype versus the reality

there's like it's discordant now because

people if they absorb this content they

expect to see

Somey da yeah floating in the in the air

you know what I mean yes yeah like many

of you have stopped drinking but I used

to like have the occasional glass of

wine and there was a moment there where

I went and met with an information

reporter back when I used to meet with

reporters and she said where are we

going to meet so I said oh let's meet at

the the wine merchant and we'll get a

glass she's like what you drink like it

was like a big deal for I'm so

disappointed I was like I'm an

entrepreneur most of them are alcoholics

or and psychedelics or yeah for sure

takes to

man hot tub yeah right yeah when they

say I'm on therapy you know what that

that's code for um so yes it is highly

Discord medine yeah I'm I'm almost

reminded of that line in The Matrix

where that agent is about to like shoot

one of the Matrix characters and says

only human right so that's kind I want

to say to everybody like only human yeah

yeah yeah you did a recently a podcast

with Tim Ferris on parenting this was

out there I love this and I bought the

book from this guy yeah just give a a

brief overview of this philosophy of

parenting oh I didn't listen to this I

have to write this down tell us this

you're going to love this I this spoke

to me but it was a little crazy yeah so

I'm a big fan of David Deutsch David

deuts I think is basically the smartest

living human he's a scientist who yeah

Quantum computation and he's written a

couple of great books but it's about the

intersection of the greatest theories

that we have today the theories with the

most reach and those are epistemology

the theory of knowledge Evolution

quantum physics and computation this is

the beginning of infinity guy that's

theity is always reference correct yes

the fabric of reality is another book

I've spent a fair bit of time with him

done some podcasts with him hired and

worked with people around him and I'm

just really impressed because it's like

the the framework that's made me smarter

I feel like because we're all fighting

aging our brains are getting slower and

we're always trying to have better ideas

so as you age you should have wisdom

that's your substitute for the raw

horsepower of intelligence going down

and so scientific wisdom I take from

David not take but you know I learned

from David and one of the things that he

pioneered is called taking children

seriously and it's this idea that you

should take your children seriously like

adults you should always give them the

same Freedom that you would give an

adult if you wouldn't speak that way

with your spouse if you wouldn't force

your spouse to do something don't force

a child to do something and it's only

through the latent threat of physical

violence hey I can control you I can

make you go to your room I can take your

dinner away or whatever that you

intimidate children and it resonated

with me because I grew up very very free

my father wasn't around when I was young

my mother didn't have the bandwidth to

watch us all the time she had other

things to do and so I kind of was making

my own decisions from a extremely young

age from the age of five nobody was

telling me what to do and from the age

of nine I was telling everybody what to

do so I'm used to that and I've been

homeschooling my own kids so the

philosophy resonated and I found this

guy Aaron stuple on air chat and he was

an incredible Expositor of the

philosophy he lives his life with it 99%

as Extreme as one can go so his kids can

eat all the ice cream they want and all

the Snickers bars they want they can

play on the iPad all they want they

don't have to go to school if they don't

feel like it they dress how they want

they don't have to do anything they

don't want to do everything is a

discussion negotiation explanation just

like you would with a roommate or an

adult living in your house and it's kind

of insane and extreme but I live my own

home life in that Arc in that direction

and I'm a very free person I don't have

an office to go to I try really not to

maintain a calendar if I can't remember

it I don't want to do it I don't send my

kids to school I really try not to coers

them and so obviously that's an extreme

model but I was sorry sorry sorry hold

on a second so yeah your kids if they if

they were like I want hog and and it's

900 p.m. you're like okay two nights ago

I did this I ordered the hog andas it

wasn't hog andas it was a different

brand I ordered it

I'm just going to go through a couple of

examples in we do ice cream at 9:00 p.m.

and we all ate so they're like Dad I

want and they're happy they're happy

kids I want to be on my iPad I'm playing

fortnite leave me alone I'll go to sleep

when I want you're like okay my oldest

probably plays iPad nine hours a day

okay so then your other kid pees in

their pants because they're too lazy to

walk to the bathroom they don't do that

because they don't like peeing their

pants no I understand but I'm just

saying like there's a spectrum of all of

these things right yeah and your point

of view is 100% of it is allowed and you

have no judgments no no that's not where

I am that's where that's where Aaron is

my rules are a little different my rules

are they got to do one hour of math or

programming plus two hours of reading

every single day and the moment they've

done that they're free creatures and

everything else is a negotiation we have

to persuade them it's a persuasion I

should say not even a negotiation and

even the hour of math and 2 hours of

reading really you get 15 to 30 minutes

of math maybe an hour if you're lucky

and you get half an hour to two hours of

reading if and what do you think the

long-term consequences of that are and

then also what is the long-term

consequences let's say on health if

they're making decisions you know are

just not good like the ice cream thing

at 9:00 p.m. how do you how do you

manage that in your mind I think

whatever age you're at whatever part

you're at in life you're still always

struggling with your own habits I think

all of us for example still eat food and

feel guilty or want to eat something

that we shouldn't be eating and we're

still always evolving our diets and kids

are the same so my oldest is already he

passed on the ice cream last time and he

said I want to eat healthier because

finally I managed to get through to him

and persuade him that he should be

healthier my younger kids will eat it

but they'll eat a limited amount my

middle kid will sometimes eat some so if

they say something you'll enable it but

then you'll guide you'll be like Hey

listen like this is not the choice I

would make I don't think but if you want

it I do it yeah I'll try it but you also

have to be careful where you don't want

to intimidate them and you don't want to

be so overbearing that then they just

view dad is like controll it I find this

so fasc and so what do you think happens

to these kids at the like I'm sure you

have a vision of what they'll be like

when they're fully formed adults like

what is that Vision I I try not to

they're going to be who they're going to

be I this is kind of how I grew up I

kind of did what I

wanted I I would ra I would rather they

have

agency than turn out exactly the way I

want cuz agency is the hardest thing

right having control over your own life

making your own decisions them to be

happy I have a very happy household what

is the Plato what's Plato's goal udonia

right like udonia yeah the happy arist

like the the Fulfillment this Con is

that what you want for

them I don't really want anything for

them I just want them to be free and

their best selves God I

want shamat is worrying about details

he's got like 17 kids now I don't know

if you know but shamat has got like a

whole punch list of things but I love

this interview because the guy made a

really interesting point which was

they're going to have to make these

decisions at some point they're going to

have to learn the pros and cons the the

the upside the downside to all these

things eating iPad and the quicker you

get them to have agency to make these

decisions for themselves with knowledge

to ask questions the more secure they'll

be I found it a fascinating discussion I

like cause and effect especially in

teenagers now that I have a teenager

it's really good for them to learn hey

you know if you don't do your homework

you you have a problem and then you got

to solve that problem how are we going

to solve that problem so I like to

present it as what's your plan anytime

they have a problem 8-year-old kids

15year old kids I just say what's your

plan to solve this and then I like to

hear their plan and let me know if you

want to brainstorm it but I thought it

was a very interesting super interesting

discussion I I would say overall my kids

are very happy the household is very

happy everybody gets along everybody

loves each other yeah

some of them are way ahead of their

peers nobody's behind in anything that

matters nobody seems unhealthy in any

obvious way no one has aberant eating

habits I haven't even found an really an

aberrate Behavior that's out of line so

it's all good self correct me it's like

a i wor I worry a lot about this like

iPad situation I see my kids on an iPad

and it's almost like unless they're

doing an

interactive project if they end up

watching says says the guy who has a

video game theme in the background that

was interactive who probably and who

probably grew up playing video games

nonstop and probably spends 9 hours a

day on his screen just called a phone so

yeah yeah it's the same thing man well I

mean I feel like watch is it but do they

watch

shows no there a h there there's a

hypocrisy to picking up your phone and

then saying to your kid no you can't use

your iPad I grew up playing video games

non-stop in video games when I was older

and I was an avid gamer until just a few

years ago well I'm not I'm not critic

izing the the iPad I was obviously on a

computer since I was four years old so I

totally get it and I think the question

for me is like but I didn't have the

ability to play a 30 minute show and

then play the next 30 minute show and

the next 30 minute show and then sit

there for two hours and just have a show

playing the whole time I was you know

interacting on the computer and doing

stuff and building stuff which was a

little different me from a use case

perspective yeah we we we did use to

control their YouTube access although

now we don't do that

the only thing I ask them is that they

put on captions when they're watching

YouTube so it helps their reading they

learn to read fast good tip yeah I like

that one I will say that one of my kids

is really into YouTube the other two are

not like they just got over it and to

the extent that they use YouTube it's

mostly because they're looking up videos

on their favorite games they want to

know how to be better at a game all

right let's keep moving through this

docket we have David Sachs with us here

so uh David give us your philosophy of

parenting okay next item on the docket

let's go

talk about some real

issues show is not a parenting show a

parenting show I asked D what's your

parenting philosophy he said oh I set up

their trust four years ago so he's done

he's good trust is set up everything's

good g r a t

check you're all set guys let me know

how it works out all right speaking of

working out we've got a vice president

who isn't cuckoo for Coco Puffs and who

actually understands what AI is JD Vance

gave a great speech I watched it myself

he talked about AI in Paris this was on

Tuesday at the AI action Summit whatever

that is and he gave a 15minute banger of

a speech he talked about over regulating

Ai and America's intention to dominate

this and we happen to have with US Naval

the Zar the Zar of AI so before I go

into all the details about the speech I

don't steal your thunder sax this this

uh Speech had a lot of uh verbage a lot

of ideas that I've heard before that

maybe we've all talked about maybe tell

us a little bit about how this all came

together and how proud you are I mean

gosh having a vice president who

understands AI is just it's mind-blowing

he could speak on a

topic that's topical credibly this was

an awesome moment for America I think

what are you implying there JC I'm

implying you have workshopped it with

him no or that he's smart both of those

things the vice president wrote the

speech or at least directed all of it so

the ideas came from him I'm not going to

take any credit whatsoever for this okay

well it was on point maybe you could

talk about I agree it was on point I

think it was a very well crafted and

well- delivered speech he made four main

points about the Trump administration's

approach to AI he's going to ensure this

is point one that American AI continues

to be the gold standard fantastic check

two he says that the administration

understands that excessive regulation

could kill AI just as it's taking off

and he did this in front of all the EU

Elites who love regulation did it on

their home court and then he said number

three AI must remain free from

ideological bias as we've talked about

here on this program and then number

four the White House he said will quote

maintain a pro-worker growth path for AI

so that it can be a potent tool for job

creation in the US so what are your

thoughts on the four major bullet points

and and his speech here in uh Paris well

I think that the vice president you knew

he was going to deliver an important

speech as soon as he got up there and

said that I'm here to talk about not AI

safety but AI opportunity and to

understand what a bracing statement that

was and really almost like a shot across

the bow you have to understand the

history and context of these events for

the last couple of years the last couple

of these events have been exclusively

focused on AI safety the last inperson

event was in the UK at Bletchley Park

and the whole conference was devoted to

AI safety similarly the European AI

regulation obviously is completely

preoccupied with safety and trying to

regulate Away safety risks before they

happen similarly you had the Biden EO

which was based around safety and then

you have just the whole media coverage

around AI which is preoccupied with all

the risks from AI so to have the vice

president get up there and say right off

the bat that there are other things to

talk about in respect to AI besides

safety risk that actually there are huge

opportunities there was a breath of

fresh air and like I said kind of a shot

across the bow and yeah you could almost

see some of the eurocrats they needed

their fainting couches after that

eurocrats

trudo looks like his dog just died so I

think that was just a really important

statement right off the bat to the

context for the speech which is AI is a

huge opportunity for all of us because

really that point just has not been made

enough and it's true there are risks but

when you look at the media coverage and

when you look at the dialogue that The

Regulators have had around this they

never talk about the opportunities it's

always just around the wrist so I think

that was a very important corrective and

then like you said he went on to say

that the United States has to win this

AI race we want to be the gold standard

we want to dominate that was my favorite

part yeah and and by the way that

language about dominating Ai and and

winning the global race that is in

president Trump's executive order from

week one so this is very much

elaborating on the official policy of of

this Administration and the vice

president that went on to say that he

specified how we would do that right we

have to win some of these key building

block Technologies we want to win in

chips we want to win in AI models we

want to win in applications he said we

need to build we need to unlock energy

for these companies and then most of all

we just need to be supportive towards

them as opposed to regulating them to

death and he had a lot to say about the

the risk of overregulation

how often it's big companies that want

regulation he warned about regulatory

capture which our friend Bill Gurley

would like and he said that so basically

having less regulation can actually be

more fair can create a More Level

Playing Field for small companies as

well as big companies and then he he

said to the Europeans that we want you

to be partners with us we want to lead

the world we want you to be our our

partners and benefit from this

technology that we're going to take the

lead in creating but you also have to be

a good partner to us and then he

specifically called out the

overregulation that Europeans have been

engaged in he mentioned the Digital

Services act which has acted as like a

speed trap for American companies it's

American companies who've been

overregulation because the truth of the

matter is that it's American technology

companies that are winning the race and

so when Europe passes these owner

regulations they fall most of all on

American companies and he's basically

saying we need you to rebalance and and

correct this because it's not fair and

it's not smart policy and it's not going

to help us collectively win this AI race

and that kind of brings me just to to

the last point is I don't think he

mentioned China by name but clearly he

talked about adversarial countries who

are using AI to control their

populations to engage in censorship and

thought control and he basically painted

a picture where it's like yeah you could

go work with them or you could work with

us and we we have hundreds of years of

shared history together we believe in

things like free speech hopefully and we

want you to work with us but if you are

going to work with us then you have to

cooperate and we have to create a

reasonable regulatory regime Nal did you

see the uh Speech and your thoughts just

generally on JD Vance and and having

somebody like this you know representing

us and wanting to win American exception

very surprising very impressive I

thought he was polite

optimistic and just very forward-looking

just it's what you would expect an

entrepreneur or a smart investor to say

so I was very impressed I think the idea

that America should win great I think

that we should not regulate I also agree

with I'm not an AI Doomer I don't think

AI is going to end the world that's a

separate conversation but there's this

religion that comes along in many faces

which is that oh climate change is going

to end the world a going to end the

world asteroids going to end the world

covid-19 is going to end the world and

it just has a way of fixating your

attention right it captures everybody's

attention at once so it's a very

seductive thing and I think in the case

of AI it's really been overplayed by

incentive bias you know motivated

reasoning by the companies were ahead

and they want to pull up the ladder

behind them I I think they genuinely

believe it I think they genuinely

believe that there's safety risk but I

think they're motivated to believe in

those safety risks and then they pass

that along but it's kind of a weird

position because they have to say oh

it's so dangerous that you shouldn't

just let open source go at it and you

should let just a few of us work with

you on it but it's not so dangerous that

a private company can't own the whole

thing right because if it was truly the

Manhattan Project if they were building

nuclear weapons you wouldn't want one

company to own that no Sam wman famously

said that AI will capture the light cone

of all future value in other words like

all value ever created at the speed of

light from here will be captured by AI

so if that's true then I think open-

Source AI really matters and little Tech

AI really matters the problem is that

the nature of training these models is

highly centralized they benefit from

supercomputer clustered compute so it's

not clear how any decentralized model

can compete so to me the real issue

boils down to is how do you push AI

forward while not having just a very

small number of players control the

entire thing and we thought we had that

solution with the original open AI which

was a nonprofit was supposed to do for

Humanity but now because of they want to

incentivize the team and they want to

raise money they have to privatize at

least a part of it although it's not

clear to me why they need to privatize

the whole thing like why they need to

buy out the nonprofit portion you could

leave a nonprofit portion and you could

have the private portion for the

incentives but I think that the the real

challenge is how do you keep AI from

naturally centralizing because all the

economics and the technology underneath

are centralizing in nature if you really

think you're going to create God do you

want to put God on a leash with one

entity controlling God that to me is the

real fear not I'm not scared of AI I'm

scared of what a very small number of

people who control AI do to the rest of

us for our own good because that's how

it always works it's well said probably

should go with the Greek model having

many gods and uh Heroes as well freeberg

you heard the uh JD van speech I assume

what are your thoughts on overregulation

and uh maybe to nal's point one person

owning this versus open source I think

that there's this kind of big definition

of social balance right now on what I

would call techno optimism and techno

pessimism generally people sort of fall

into one of those two camps generally

speaking techno

optimists I would say are folks that

believe that accelerating outcomes with

AI with automation with bioengineering

manufacturing semiconductors Quantum

Computing nuclear energy Etc will usher

in this era of abundance by making by

creating leverage which is what

technology gives us

technology will make things cheaper and

it will be deflationary and it will give

everyone more so it creates abundance

the challenge is that people who already

have a lot worry more about the exposure

to the downside than they desire the

upside and so you know the techn

pessimists are generally like the EU and

large Parts frankly of the United States

are worried about the loss of X the loss

of jobs the loss of this the loss of

that whereas countries like China and

India are more excited about the

opportunity to create wealth the

opportunity to create leverage the

opportunity to create abundance for

their people you know GDP per capita in

in the EU $60,000 a year GDP per capita

in the United States like 82,000 but GDP

per capita in India is 2500 and China is

12,600 there's a greater incentive in

those countries uh to manifest upside

than there is for the United States and

the EU who are more worried about

manifesting downside and so it is a very

difficult kind of social battle that's

underway I do think like over time those

governments and those countries and

those social systems that Embrace these

Technologies are going to become more

capitalist and they're going to require

less government control and intervention

in job creation the economy payments to

people and so on and the countries that

are more techn pessimistic are

unfortunately going to find themselves

asking for greater government control

govern intervention in markets

governments creating jobs government

making payments to people government's

effectively running the economy my

personal view obviously is that I'm a

very strong advocate for technology

acceleration because I think in nearly

every case in human history when a new

technology has emerged we've largely

found ourselves assuming that the

technology works in the framework of

today or of yester year the automobile

came along and no one envisioned that

everyone in the United States would own

an automobile and therefore you would

need to create all of these new

Industries like mechanics and car

dealerships roads all the people

servicing building roads and all the

other industry that emerg and it's it's

very hard for us to sit here today and

say okay AI is going to destroy jobs

what's it going to create and be right I

think we're very likely going to be

wrong whatever estimations we we give

the area that I think is most

underestimated is large technical

projects that seem technically

infeasible today that AI can unlock for

example habitation in in the oceans like

it's very difficult for us to Envision

like creating cities underwater and

creating cities in the oceans or

creating cities on the moon or creating

cities on mars or finding new places to

live those are like technically people

might argue oh that sounds stupid I

don't want to go do that but at the end

of the day like human civilization will

drive us to want to do that but those

technically are very hard to pull off

today but AI can unlock a new set of

Industries to enable those transitions

so I think we really get it wrong when

we try and assume the technology as a

transplant for last year or last century

and then we kind of become techn

pessimists because we're worried about

losing what we have are you a techn

pessimist are you Optimist because I you

uh bring up the downside of awful lot

here on the program but you are working

every day in a very optimistic way to

breed you know better strawberries and

potatoes for folks so you're a little

bit of a no I have no techn pessimism

whatsoever I try and point out why the

other side is acting the way they are

got it okay putting it in full context

and what I'm trying to highlight is I

think that that framework is wrong I

think that that

frame

transology the way operating the way

about and it creates this you know

because of this manifestation about

worrying about downside it creates this

fear that that creates regulation like

we see in the EU and as a result China's

GDP will scale while the euus will

stagnate if that's where they go that's

my assessment or my opinion on what will

happen chath you want to wrap this up

for us what are your thoughts on JD I'll

give you two okay the first is I would

say this is a really interesting

moment where I would call this the tale

of two vice presidents very early in the

Biden Administration kamla was

dispatched on an equally important topic

at that time which was illegal

immigration and she went to Mexico and

Guatemala and so you actually have a

really interesting AB test here you have

both vice presidents dealing with what

we're in that moment incredibly

important issues and I think that JD was

focused he was precise he was

ambitious and even the part of the press

that was very supportive of kamla

couldn't find a lot of very positive

things to say about her and the feedback

was it was Meandering she was ducking

questions she didn't answer the

questions that she was asked very well

and it's so interesting because it's a

bit of a microcosm then to what happened

over these next four years and her

campaign quite honestly which you could

have taken that window of that feedback

and unfortunately for her it just

continued to be very consistent so that

was one observation I had because I

heard him give the speech I heard her

and I had this kind of moment where I

was like wow two totally different

people the second is on the substance of

what JD said I said this on Tucker and

I'll just simplify all of this into a

very basic framework which

is if you want a country to thrive it

needs to have economic Supremacy

and it needs to have military

Supremacy in the absence of those two

things societies

crumble and the only thing that

underpins those two things is

technological Supremacy and we see this

today so on Thursday what happened with

Microsoft they had a $24 billion

contract with the United States Army to

deliver some whizbang thing and they

realized that they couldn't deliver it

and so what did they do they went to

andril now why did they go to andril

because andril has the technological

Supremacy to actually execute a few

weeks ago we saw some attempts at

technological Supremacy from the Chinese

with respect to deep seek so I think

that this is a very simple existential

battle those who can harness and

govern the things that are

technologically Superior will

win and it will drive economic vibrancy

and Military Supremacy which then

creates safe strong societies that's it

so from that perspective JD nailed it he

saw the forest from the trees he said

exactly what I think needed to be said

and put folks on notice that you're

either on the ship or you're off the

ship and I think that that was really

good yeah and there was like um a little

secondary conversation that emerged

Sachs that I I would love to engage you

with if you're willing which is this

Civil War quote unquote between maybe

Maga 1.0 magga 2.0 techies ver in the

Maga party like

ourselves and maybe the core Maga folks

we can pull up the Tweet here in JD's

own word and he's been engaging people

in his own words it's very clear that

he's writing these tweets a distinct

difference between other politicians and

this Administration and they just tell

you what they think here it is I'll try

and write something to address this in

detail this is JD Vance's tweet but I

think this Civil War is overstated

though yes there are some real

divergences between the populace I would

describe that as magga and the techies

but briefly in general I dislike

substituting American labor for cheap

labor my views on immigration and

offshoring flow from this I like growth

and productivity gains and this informs

my view on Tech and regulation when it

comes to AI specifically the risks are

number one overstate to your point Nal

or two difficult to avoid one of my any

real concerns for instance is about

Consumer Fraud that's a valid reason to

worry about safety but the other problem

is much worse if a pure nation is 6

months ahead of the US on AI again I'll

try and say more and this is JD going

right at I think one of the more

controversial topic

sacks that the administration is dealing

with and has dealt with when it comes to

immigration and Tech because these two

things are dovetailing each other if we

lose millions of driver jobs which we

will in the next 10 years just like we

lost millions of cashier jobs well

that's going to impact how our nation

and many of the voters look at the

border and immigration we might not be

able to let as many people immigrate

here if we're losing millions of jobs to

Ai and self-driving cars what are your

thoughts on him engaging this directly

saxs well the first point he's making

there is about wage pressure right which

is when you throw open our Borders or

you throw open American markets products

that can be made in foreign countries by

much cheaper labor that's not held to

the same standards the same minimum wage

or the same Union rules or the same

safety standards that American labor is

and has a huge cost Advantage then

you're creating wage pressure for

American workers and he's opposed to

that and I think that is an important

point because I think the way that the

media or neoliberals like to portray

this argument is that somehow mag's

resistance to unlimited immigration is

somehow based on xenophobia or something

like like that no it's based on bread

and butter kitchen table issues which is

if you have this ridiculous open border

policy it's inevitably going to create a

lot of wage pressure for people at the

bottom of the pyramid so I think JD is

making that argument but and this is

point two he's saying I'm not against

productivity growth so technology is

good because it enables all of our

workers to improve their productivity

and that should result in better wages

because workers can produce more the

value of their labor goes up if they

have more tools to be productive so

there's no contradiction there and I

think he's explaining why there isn't a

contradiction a point I would add he

doesn't make this point in that tweet

but I would add is that one of the

problems that we've had over the last I

don't know 30 years is that we have had

tremendous productivity growth in the US

but labor has not been able to capture

it all that benefit has basically gone

to Capital or to companies and I think a

big part of the reason why is because

we've had this largely unrestricted

immigration policy so I think if you

were to Tamp down on immigration if you

were to stop the illegal immigration

then labor might be able to capture more

of the benefits of productivity growth

and that would be a good thing it' be a

more equitable distribution of the gains

from productivity and from technology

and that I think would help Tamp down

this growing conflict that you see

between technologists and the rest of

the country or certainly the heartland

of the country nval this is a okay you

want to add anything else David sorry

well I think just the final point he

makes in that tweet is that he talks

about how we live in a world in which

there are other countries that are

competitive and specifically he he

doesn't mention China but he says we

have a pure competitor and it's going to

be a much worse world if they end up

being six months ahead of us on AI

rather than six months behind that is a

really important point to keep in mind I

think that the whole Paris AI Summit

took place against the backdrop of this

recognition because just a few weeks ago

we had deep seek and it's really clear

that China is not a year behind us

they're hot on our heels or only maybe

months behind us and so if we hobble

ourselves with unnecessary regulations

if we make it more difficult for our AI

companies to compete that doesn't mean

that China's going to follow suit and

copy us they're going to take advantage

of that fact and they're going to win

all right nval this seems to be one of

the main issues of our time four of the

five people on this podcast right now

are immigrants so we have this amazing

in America this is a country built by

immigrants for immigrants do you think

that should change now in the face of

job destruction which I know you've been

tracking self-driving pretty acutely we

both have an interest there I think over

the years you know what's the solution

here if we're going to see a bunch of

job displacement which will happen for

certain jobs we all we all kind of know

that should we shut the border and not

let the next Nal chamat Max and

freedberg into the country well let me

let me declare my biases up front I'm a

first generation immigrant I moved here

when I was 9 years old rather my parents

did and then I naturalized

citizen so obviously I'm in favor of

some level of immigration that said I'm

assimilated I consider myself an

American first and

foremost I bleed red white and blue I

believe in the Bill of Rights and the

Constitution first and second and fourth

and all the proper amendments I get up

there every July 4th and I deliberately

defend the Second Amendment on Twitter

at which point half my followers Go

Bananas you know cuz you're because I'm

not supposed to I'm supposed to be a

good immigrant right and and carry the

usual set of coherent leftist policies

globalist policies so I think that legal

High skill immigration with room and

time for assimilation makes sense you

want to have a brain drain on the best

and brightest coming to the freest

country in the world to build technology

and to help civilization move forward

and you know as chth was saying economic

power and military power is Downstream

of technology in fact even culture is

Downstream of Technology look at what

the birth control pill did for example

to culture or what the automobile did to

culture or what radio and television did

to culture and then the internet so

technology drives everything and if you

look at wealth wealth is a set of

physical Transformations that you can

affect and that's a combination of

capital and knowledge and the bigger

input to that is knowledge and so the US

has become the home of knowledge

creation thanks to bringing in the best

and brightest you could even argue deep

Seek part of the reason why we lost that

is because a bunch of those kids they

studied in the US but then we sent them

back home right so I think you

absolutely is that actually accurate

that they were uh yeah yeah yeah some a

few of them really oh my God that's like

exhibit a wow I didn't know that so I

think you absolutely have to split

skilled assimilated immigration which is

a small set and it has to be both they

have to both be skilled and they have to

become Americans that oath is not

meaningless right it has to mean

something so skilled assimilated

immigration you have to separate that

from just open borders whoever can

wander in just come on in that that

latter part makes no sense if the Biden

administration had only been letting in

people with 150 IQs we wouldn't have

this debate right now the reason why

we're having this debate is because they

just opened the border and let millions

and millions of people in it was to

their advantage to conflate legal and

illegal immigration so every time You'

be like well we can't just open the

Border say what about Elon what about

this and they would just parade if they

were just letting Elon and the Jensen

and freed bgs we wouldn't be having the

same conversation today the correlation

between open borders and wage

suppression is irrefutable we know that

data and I think that the

Democrats for whatever logic

committed an incredible error in

basically undermining their core cohort

I want to go back to what you said

because I think it's super important

there is a new political calculus on the

field and I agree with you I think that

the the three cohorts of the future are

the asset light working in middle class

that's cohort number one there are

probably 100 to 150 million of those

folks then there are patriotic business

owners and then there's leaders in

Innovation those are the three and I

think that what Maga gets right is they

found the middle ground that intersects

those three cohorts of people and so

every time you see this sort of left

versus right dichotomy it's totally

miscast and it sounds discordant to so

many of us because that's not how any of

us identify right and I think that

that's a very important observation

because the policies that we adapt will

need to reflect those three cohorts what

is the common ground amongst those three

and on that point nval is right there's

not lot that those three would say is

wrong with a very targeted form of

extremely useful legal immigration of

very very very smart people who agree to

assimilate and be a part of America I

mean I'm so glad you said it the way you

said it like I remember growing up where

my parents would try to pretend that

they were in Sri Lanka and sometimes I

would get so frustrated I'm like if you

want to be in Sri Lanka go back to Sri

Lanka I want to be Canadian because it

was easier for me to make friends it was

easier for me to have a life I was

trying my best I wanted to be Canadian

and then when I moved to the United

States 25 years ago I wanted to be

American and I feel that I'm American

now and I'm proud to be an American and

I think that's what you want you want

people that embrace it doesn't mean that

we can't dress up in a show AR CES every

now and then but the point is like what

do you believe and where is your loyalty

freeberg we used to have this concept of

in a Melting Pot of this assimilation

and that was a good thing then it became

cultural appropriation we we kind of

made a right turn here where where do

you stand on this recruiting the best

and brightest and forcing them to

assimilate making sure that they're down

Jason find the people that care to be

here yeah let me res that uh I reject

the premise this whole

conversation wait wait hold on look I'm

look I'm a first generation American who

moved here when I was five and became a

citizen when I was 10 and yes I'm fully

American and that's the only country I

have any loyalty to but I the the

premise that I reject here is that

somehow an AI conversation leads to an

immigration conversation because

millions of jobs are going to be lost we

don't know that that's also true I agree

you're making a huge assumption buying

into the

dorismond of jobs that is not those are

fact not evidence I think any jobs have

any jobs been lost by AI let's be real

we've had AI for two and a half years

and I think it's great but so far it's a

better search engine and it helps high

school kids cheat on their essays I mean

you don't believe that self driving is

coming hold on a second Sach you don't

believe that Millions but but hold on

those those driver jobs weren't even

there 10 years ago Uber came along and

created all these driver jobs door Dash

created all these driver jobs so what

technology does yes technology destroys

jobs but it replaces them with

opportunities that are even better and

then either you can go capture that

opportunity yourself or an entrepreneur

will come along and create something

that allows you to capture those

opportunities AI is a productivity tool

it increases the productivity of a

worker it allows and do more creative

work and less repetitive work as such it

makes them more valuable yes there is

some retraining involved but not a lot

these are natural language computers you

can talk to them in plain English and

they talk back to you in plain English

but I think David is absolutely right I

think we will see job creation by AI

that will be as fast or faster than job

destruction you saw this even with the

internet like YouTube came along look at

all these YouTube streamers and

influencers that didn't used to be a job

new jobs really opportunities cuz job is

a wrong word job implies someone else

has to give it to me and sort of like

their handed out it's a zero some game

forget all that it's opportunities after

covid look at how many people are making

money by working from home in mysterious

little ways on the internet that you

can't even quite grasp here's the way I

categorize it okay is that whenever you

have a new technology you get

productivity gains you get some job

disruption meaning that part of your job

may go away but then you get other parts

that are new and hopefully more elevated

you know more interesting and then there

is some job loss I just think that the

third category will follow the

historical Trend which is that the first

two categories are always bigger and you

end up with more net productivity and

more net wealth creation and we've seen

no evidence to date that that's not

going to be the case now it's true that

AI is about to get more powerful you're

going to see a whole new wave of what

are called agents this year a agentic

products are able to do more for you but

there's no evidence yet that those

things are going to be completely

unsupervised and replace people's jobs

so you know I think that we have to see

how this technology evolves and I think

one of the mistakes of let's call it the

European approach is assuming that you

can predict the future with perfect

accuracy with such good accuracy that

you can create regulations today that

are going to avoid all these risks in

the future and we just don't know enough

yet to be able to do that that's level

of certainty I agree with you and the

companies that are promulgating that

view is what nval said those that have

an economic vested interest in at least

convincing the next incremental investor

that this could be true because they

want to make the claim that all the

money should go to them so they could

Hoover up all the economic gains and

that's that is the part of the cycle

we're in so if you if you actually

stratify these reactions there's the

small startup companies in AI that

believe there's a productivity leap to

be had and that there's going to be

Prosperity everybody on the sidelines

watching and then a few companies that

have an extremely vested interest in

them being a gatekeeper because they

need to raise the next 30 or $40 billion

doar trying to convince people that

that's true and if you view it through

that lens you're right saxs we have not

accomplished anything yet that proves

that this is going to be cataclysmically

bad and if anything right now history

would tell you it's probably going to be

like the past which is generally

productive and a cre Society yeah and

just to bring it back back to JD's

speech which is where we started I think

it was a quintessentially American

speech in the sense that he said we

should be optimistic about the

opportunities here which I think is

basically right and we want to lead we

want to take advantage of this we don't

want to hobble it we don't even fully

know what it's going to be yet we are

going to Center workers we want to be

Pro worker and I think that if there are

downsides for workers then we can

mitigate those things in the future but

it's too early to say that we know what

the program should be it's more about a

statement of values at this point do you

think it's too early freeberg given

optimists and all these robots being

created what we're seeing in

self-driving you've talked about the

ramp up with

wh to actually say we will not see

millions of

jobs and millions of people get

displaced from those jobs what do you

think freeberg I'm curious your thoughts

because that is the

counterargument my experience erence in

the workplace is that AI

tools that are doing things that an

analyst or knowledge worker was doing

with many hours in the past is allowing

them to do something in minutes that

doesn't mean that they spend the rest of

the day doing nothing what's great for

our business and for other businesses

like ours that can leverage AI tools is

that those individuals can now do more

and so our throughput our productivity

as an organization has gone up and we

can now create more things faster so

whatever the product is that my company

makes we can now make more things more

quickly we can do more development

you're seeing it on the ground correct

at a hollow and I'm seeing it on the

ground and I don't think that this like

transplantation of how bad AI will be

for jobs is the right framing as much as

it is about an acceleration of

productivity and this is why I go back

to the point about GDP per capita and

GDP growth countries societies areas

that are interested or industries that

are interested in accelerating output in

accelerating productivity the ability to

make stuff and sell stuff are going to

rapidly Embrace these tools because it

allows them to do more with less and I

think that's what I really see on the

ground and then the second point I'll

make is the one that I mentioned earlier

and I'll wrap up with a third point

which is I think we're underestimating

the new industries that will emerge

drastically dramatically there is going

to be so much new sh that we are not

really thinking deeply about right now

that we could do a whole another 2hour

brainstorming session on on what AI

unlocks in terms of large scale projects

that are traditionally or typically are

today held back because of the

constraints on the technical feasibility

of these projects and that ranges from

accelerating to new semiconductor

technology to Quantum Computing to

Energy Systems to transportation to

habitation etc etc there's all sorts of

transformations in every industry that's

possible as these tools come online and

that will spurn insane new Industries

the most important point is the third

one which is we don't know the overlap

of job loss and job creation if there is

one and so the rate at which these new

technologies impact and great new

markets but I think nval is right I

think that what happens in capitalism

and in free societies is that capital

and people rush to fill the hole of new

opportunities that emerge because of AI

and that those grow more quickly than

the old bubbles deflate so if there's a

deflationary effect in terms of job need

in other Industries I think the loss

will happen slower then the rush to take

advantage of creating new things will

happen on the other side so my bet is

probably on the order of I think new

things will be created faster than old

things will be lost I think actually as

a quick side note to that the fastest

way to help somebody get a job right now

if you know somebody in the market who's

looking for a job the best thing you can

do is say hey go download the AI tools

and just start talking to them just

start using them in any way and then you

can walk into any employer in almost any

field and say hey I understand Ai and

they'll hire you on the exactly nval you

and I watched this happen we had a front

row seat to it back in the day when you

were doing Venture hacks and I was doing

open Angel Forum we had to like fight to

find five or 10 companies a month then

the cost of running these companies went

down they went down massively from five

million to start a company to two then

to 250k then to 100K I think what we're

seeing is like three things concurrently

you're going to see all these jobs go

away for automation self-driving cars

cashier Etc but we're going to also see

static team size at places like Google

they're just not hiring because they're

just having the existing bloated

employee base learn the tools but I

don't know if you're seeing this the

number of startups able to get a product

to Market with two or three people and

get to a million in revenue is booming

what are you seeing in the startup

landscape definitely what you're saying

in that there's leverage but at the same

time the I think the more interesting

part is that new startups are enabled

that could not exist otherwise uh my

last startup air chat could not have

existed without AI because we needed a

transcription and translation even the

current thing I'm working on it's not an

AI company but it cannot exist without

AI it is relying on AI even at angelist

we're significantly adopting AI like

everywhere you turn it's more

opportunity more opportunity more

opportunity and people like to go on uh

Twitter or the artist formerly known as

Twitter and and and basically they like

to exaggerate like oh my God we've hit

AGI oh my my God I just replaced my all

my mid-level Engineers oh my god I've

stopped hiring to me that's like moronic

the two valid ones are the onean

entrepreneur shows where there's like

one guy or one gal and they're like

scaling up like crazy things to AI or

there are people who are embracing Ai

and being like I need to hire and I need

to hire anyone who can even spell AI

like anyone who's even used AI just come

on in come on in again I would say the

easiest way to see that AI is not taking

jobs of creating opportunities is go

brush up on your learn a little bit

watch a few videos use the AI Tinker

with it and then go reapply for that job

that rejected you and watch how they

pull you in in 2023 an economist named

Richard Baldwin said AI won't take your

job it's someone using AI that will take

your job because they know how to use it

better than you and that's kind of

become a meme and you see it floating

around X but I think there's a lot of

Truth in that you know as long as you

remain adaptive and you keep learning

and you learn how to take advantage of

these tools you should do better and if

you wall yourself off from the

technology and don't take advantage of

it that's when you put yourself at risk

another way to think about it is these

are natural language computers so

everyone who's intimidated by computers

before should no longer be intimidated

you don't need to program anymore in

some esoteric language or learn some

obscure mathematics to be able to use

these you can just talk to them and they

talk back to you that's magic the new

programming language is English chath

you want to wrap us up here on this

opportunity slash displacement slash

chaos I was gonna say this before but I

I'm pretty unconvinced anymore that

you should bother even learning many of

the hard sciences and maths that we used

to as underpinnings like I used to

believe that the right thing to do was

for everybody to go into

engineering I'm not necessarily as

convinced as I used to be because I used

to say well that's great first

principles thinking etc etc and you're

going to get trained in a toolkit that

will scale and I'm not sure that that's

true I think like you can you can use

these agents and you can use deep

research and all of a sudden they

replace a lot of that skill so what's

left over it's creativity it's judgment

it's history it's psychology it's all of

these other sort of like softare

leadership communication that allow you

to manipulate these models in

constructive ways because when you think

of like the prompt engineering that gets

you to Great answers it's actually just

thinking in totally different orthogonal

ways and

nonlinearly so that's my last thought

which is it does open up the aperture

meaning for every smart mathematical

genius there's many many many other

people who have high EQ and all of a

sudden this tool actually takes the

skill away from the person with just a

high IQ and says if you have these other

skills now you can compete with me

equally and I think that that's

liberating for a lot of people I'm in

the camp of more opportunity you know I

I got to watch the movie industry a

whole bunch when the digital cameras

came out and more people started making

documentaries more people started making

independent film shorts and then of

course the Youtube Revolution people

started making videos on YouTube or

podcasts like this and if you look at

what happened with like the special

effects industry as well we need far

fewer people to make a Star Wars movie

to make a Star Wars series to make a

Marvel series as we've seen now we can

get the Mandalorian and shoka and all

these other series with smaller numbers

of people and they look better than

obviously the original Star Wars series

or even the prequels so there's there's

going to be so many more opportunities

we're now making more TV shows more

series everything we wanted to see of

every little character that's the same

thing that's happening in startups I

can't believe that there is a app now

nval called slopes just for uh skiing

and there are 20 really good apps for

just meditation and there are 10 really

good ones just for fasting like we're

going down this long taale of

opportunity and there'll be plenty of

million to10 million businesses for us

you know people learn to use these tools

I love how that's the thing that tips

you over which

one you get an extra Marvel movie or an

extra Star Wars show so that tips you

over I think for a lot of people it's it

feels great that AI may take over the

world but I'm gonna get next to Star

Wars movie so I'm I'm cool yeah I mean

it's are you not entertained want to

final point on this is look I mean given

the choice between the two categories of

techno Optimist and techn pessimist I'm

definitely in The Optimist camp and I I

think and I think we should be but I I

think there's actually a third category

that I would submit which is techno

realist which is technology is going to

happen trying to stop it is like

ordering the tides to stop if we don't

do it somebody else will China's going

to do it or somebody else will do it and

it's better for us to be in control of

the technology to be the leader rather

than passively waiting for it to happen

to us and I just think that's always

true it's better for businesses to be

proactive and take the lead disrupt

themselves instead of waiting for

someone else to do it and I think it's

better for countries and I think you did

see this theme a little bit I mean these

are my own views I don't want to ascribe

them to the vice president but you did

see I think a hint of the Techno realism

idea in his speech and in his tweet

which is look AI is going to happen we

might as well be the leader if we don't

we could lose in a key category that has

implications for National Security for

our economy for many things so that's

just not a world we want to live in so I

think a lot of this debate is sort of

academic because whether you're an

optimist or pessimist is sort of glass

half empty half full the question is

just is it going to happen or not and I

think the answer is yes so then we want

to control it this just you know let's

just boil it down there's not a

tremendous amount of choice in this I

think I would agree heavily with one

point and I would just tweak another the

point I would agree with is that it's

going to happen anyway and that's what

deep seek proved you can turn off the

flow of chips to them and you can turn

off the flow of talent what do they do

they just get more efficient and they

exported it back to us they sent us back

the best open source model when our guys

were staying closed source for safety

reasons and exactly and I deep explo

safety of their Equity deep seek

exploded the fallacy that the US has a

monopoly in this category and that

somehow therefore we can slow down the

train and that we have total control

over the train and I think what deep

seek showed is no if we slow down the

train they're just going to win yeah the

part the part where I TR to tweak a

little bit is the idea that we are going

to win by we when you say America the

problem is that the best way to win is

to be as open as distributed as

Innovative as possible if this all ends

up in the control of one company they're

actually going to be slower to innovate

than if there's a dynamic system and

that dynamic system by its nature will

be open it will leak to China it will

leak to India but these things have

powerful Network effects we know this

about technology almost all Technologies

has Network effects underneath and so

even if you are open you're still going

to win and you're still going to control

you look at the internet that was all

true for the internet right the

internet's an open Technologies based on

tons of Open Source Who are the Dom

companies all the dominant companies are

us companies because they were in the

lead exactly right exactly right we we

embrac the open internet we embrac the

open internet right that was different

yeah so there will be benefits for all

of humanity and I think the vice

president's speech was really clear that

look we want you guys to be on board we

want to be good

Partners however there are definitely

going to be winners economically

militarily and in order to be one of

those winners you have to be a leader

who's going to get to AGI first nval is

it going to be an open source who's

going to win is it going to be open

source or closed Source who's going to

win the day if we're sitting here 5 10

years from now and we're looking at the

top three language models lot of trouble

for this but I don't think we know how

to build AGI but that's that's a much

longer discuss who's going to have the

best model five years from hold on I I

100% agree with you I just think it's a

different thing but what we're building

are these incredible natural language

computers and actually David in a very

pithy way summarized the two big use

cases it's search and it's homework it's

paperwork uh it's it's really paperwork

and a lot of these jobs that we're

talking about disappearing are actually

paperwork jobs they're paperwork

shuffling these are madeup jobs like the

federal government as we're finding out

through Doge you know a third of it is

like people digging holes of spoons and

the another third are filling them back

up they're filling up paperwork and then

burying it in a m shaft they're buing M

shaft Mountain yeah so I I I think a lot

of these madeup jobs they got to go down

the M shaft to get the paperwork when

someone retires and bring it up you know

what I'm going to get them some thumb

drives we can increase the throughput of

the elevator with some thumb drives it

would be incredible what we found out is

the the DMV has been running the

government for the last 70 years it's

been a compounding compounding that's

that's really what's going on DMV is in

charge I mean if the world ends in

nuclear war God for bid the only thing

that's be left will be the Cockroaches

and then a bunch of like government work

documents s report TPS reports down in

the M shaft basically

yeah let's take a moment everybody to

thank our

Zar we miss him we wish he could be here

for the whole show and thank you Zar

thank you to the Zar see you guys miss

you we miss you little buddy I wish we

could talk about Ukraine but we're not

allowed get back to work we'll talk

about it another time over cfee I'll see

you in the comissary thanks for the

invite bye man I'm so excited I'm nval

saaks invited me to go to the the

military mess I'm going to be in the

commissary no he didn't J you invited

yourself be honest I did yes I did I put

it on his calendar to keep the

conversation moving let me segue a point

that came up that was really important

into tariffs and the point is even

though the internet was open the US won

a lot of the internet a lot of us

companies won the internet and they won

that because we got there the firstest