Hey, wanted to show you a brief

conversation I had with Justin Lob. He

is a Maker School member and an AI

automation agency owner that achieved

over $20,000 a month while juggling a

full-time job. Justin's going to talk us

through everything that he did to get

there. Let's see what he has to say.

Justin, what's going on? Great having

you. Uh, thanks so much for being here.

>> Hey, Nick. Good to see you again. Thanks

for having me on.

>> So, I think probably the number one

thing that most people want to see in a

video like this is some numbers. So, if

you could help us out, what was the big

achievement that you've managed to get

with AI and automation so far?

>> Let's get right to it. Yeah. So, from

starting my business in 2024, my biggest

month was February this year where I

crossed $20,000. It was $20,354

to be exact.

>> Damn, that is wild. Um, from my

understanding, you were doing this with

a full-time job.

>> Doing this with a full 9 toive job. Uh,

all the way up until about a month ago,

I was working a 9 toive job and also

running the business.

>> Must have been a lot. I mean, you know,

as somebody that has also done a

full-time job with a quote unquote side

hustle, um, how was that period? Was

that like overwhelming?

>> Yeah, I mean, full full range of

emotion, honestly, like a lot of highs,

a lot of lows, like all of the in

between. Um, definitely was some of the

busiest months that I've ever worked.

So, I was working pretty consistently

from 9:00 to 5:00 at my regular job

where I have a little bit of flex where,

you know, maybe I could take a sales

call during lunch or maybe I could work

on something kind of async while I was

having a little bit time at my job, but

I was doing a lot of work before 9 to5

and then also after 9 to5 and then most

weekends I would probably work a few

hours.

>> Can we talk uh tools for a sec? What

kind of tools do you use and how are you

fulfilling projects uh when you started

versus today?

>> Yeah, I um I'm relatively simple in my

tool stack. So, I have a basic CRM I

built in Air Table that I have

relatively automated. Um I have a

project management system in ClickUp

that I use and then I have a basic

website that just converts people into

booked calls. And really, I've done

Upwork as lead generation. I've also set

up instantly and am typically running

some type of cold email like marketing

campaigns that I'm testing against each

other. Um, and then from there like I'm

relatively tool agnostic is what I tell

my clients. So I don't only sell like n

systems or make.com systems or I don't

only use like cloud code. Um, I actually

don't even use cloud code which is kind

of crazy at this point.

Um, but I sell a project and I, you

know, kind of decide what they need as

like a result or deliverables and then I

kind of backtrack that into what I know

I could deliver with the technology. So,

um, it's not complicated. I learned it

in probably about 6 months or so and

then I have just been building off of

that.

>> Yeah, I mean that sounds like probably

the most efficient way to do things. You

learn a way of accomplishing a goal and

you don't worry too much about the

means. you worry more about the goal.

Client comes to you, hey, I'm in the XYZ

situation. You're like, okay, cool. How

can we get to the result that this

client wants? How can we achieve this

transformation using, you know,

mechanisms that I myself am very

confident I can do this with? And then

you don't really fret too much about it.

You're not like, oh, what's the coolest,

sexiest tool currently on the market?

You're just like, no, this works. It's

going to work really well for them. Uh,

and I'm probably going to be able to

deliver better results for them with

this tool that I know and understand

than super incredible agentic harness

workflow that, you know, everybody and

their mom's pitching all over social

media right now.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I found that myself as well. Like I

was selling Make.com systems for way

longer than like the meta of make.com

systems. Um, you know, even probably

like up until seven or eight months ago.

Like a lot of stuff was still running on

Make.com and then everybody's like,

"What do you mean? Like the market's so

I can't believe you're still doing this.

What about like your agent? I'm like

most people don't need agents, man. Like

most people just need a thing that

works. Like it doesn't have to be. You

know, tag a CRM entry when a freaking

call comes in. Boom. Like do you really

need, you know, Cloud Code or Codeex for

that? Probably not. So

>> yeah, 100%. Like people always talk

about like, oh, should I like self-host

Naden or like what's the best way to do

it? How do I want to like manage this?

And it's like just pay like like

somebody figured that out already. like

pay for cloud hosting. Like you don't

need to like unless you have some very

special use case like don't like add

things onto your plate of like oh let me

migrate all of my make.com workflows to

clawed code. It's like you're probably

wasting your time like is that one of

one of the things you kept saying early

on for me was like is that a revenue

generating activity or like are you

optimizing for the right thing? like are

you spending your time optimizing for

sales calls or are you like figuring out

the newest and the greatest like model

of claws that you want to use? It's like

it it's not going to change much.

>> The thing for me to realize is just how

in a bubble we are. Like we read AI news

all the time. We have friends that are

like in AI. Our clients are all talking

about it. But like the vast majority of

people, like the vast majority of people

are not aware of how any of this stuff

works. Like they're they're on 10 years

ago, you know? They're populating their

whole CRM with like Google Sheets or

hell, pen and paper. [laughter]

So you do not need to be up to date like

on a daily basis. You know,

realistically like a quarterly basis is

fine. You could be like, "Okay, people I

guess are starting to use XYZ tool. I

should probably keep an eye on it, but

don't make it your whole life and you'll

probably be fine." Yeah, [snorts]

exactly. Like AISS is like keep it

simple, stupid. Like don't don't over

complicate it. Especially when you're

selling projects, like when I sell

projects to clients as well, like I'm

not trying to over complicate things in

an effort to like display value or like

sell them on things. I'm actually trying

to simplify. So like my first goal when

I talk to a business is what are you

doing right now and like how can we

simplify that and then how can we

automate it or introduce a system that

does it and then how do we scale that up

so like it's important not to like get

those backwards but like number one is

simplify number two is build number

three is scale

>> and that's helped me a good bit I think

>> yeah it's not rushing to automate you

know people see automate in the business

model and they're like okay that's

obviously all I do so I come in they

give me the crap happiest process ever

and then I say no problem let's automate

it but it's like if you just change the

process a little bit half the time you

would even need to automate it sure you

could template out some stuff but you

would need to like process automate it

and uh the other half the time when you

do process automate you are now scaling

a much more efficient system which is

obviously way better for the business

>> yeah 100%

>> what's your discovery process like like

when you get somebody that's interested

you know where do you where do you take

them how do you how do you step them

through

>> like I'll go back to it again like I I

optimize for sales those calls is really

the key. So that's like my overarching

theme is like when somebody let's say

it's on Upwork uh responds to one of my

proposals like whatever they say I'm

going to respond back to them like great

I'll hop on a call here's my calendar

link um so whether they have a question

you know I'll answer it like I'm not

going to be like [laughter] about it but

uh you know whatever they say is like

hey cool I'll answer that on a call or

like this is my thought like let's hop

on a call and and go over

send them my calendar link. Um, and then

I have a couple of systems built up from

there. You know, it's going to update my

CRM, add a task in my project management

system. But it's it's pretty simple.

It's like number one, get people on the

call. And then number two, um run

through like what their issue is. Let

them talk. Let them do the talking. And

then um you know, there's a number of

different like sales tactics that you

learn along the way. But you know,

really just getting them on a call is

the main thing to start out with.

>> Yeah. I see that a lot in Maker School

where somebody is either through cold

DMs or communities or Upwork. They get

somebody on a call and then they're

like, "Okay, like what the hell do I do

from here?" And, you know, I'm really

worried about whatever. And a lot of the

time I'm like, "Well, honestly, you've

done it. You've done most of the work at

this point." Like, don't worry too much.

Literally getting somebody from a

message box to actually like see a

granted video and like listen to a

granted compressed version of your voice

is like is like most of the battle. Um,

so I'm glad you optimize for the right

thing. You know, a lot of people are

like, "Oh, nothing I'm doing is

working." And then I'm like, "Okay, so

how many calls have you had?" And

they're like, "Zero. I've just been

sending the prices over text. Like get

on a call and like a lot of the stuff's

gonna figure itself out. Like we talk to

people all day and a lot of the time

sales calls are nothing special. You're

just talking to somebody trying to

understand their problem and then

offering a solution.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like I've had to learn a lot

about sales calls and like by no mean am

I an expert or I would even consider

myself very good at them at this point

but I try to like do the qualification

at the end of the sales call like at the

end of the process instead of doing it

upstream. So like if people are

responding back to me in any interested

manner I'm not going to disqualify them

immediately. like I'm gonna get them on

the call and then I'm going to be the

one that is trying to qualify or

disqualify them. Like I tried to take

the frame or the mindset of I'm not

selling to the person. It's I'm trying

to qualify or disqualify them if I want

to work with them, if they're a good

fit. Like really like that just boils

down to like do I like number one, can I

help them? And then number two, do I

want to like do I want to go down that

route? So, um, that's been a good switch

in my minds or sales calls is I'm not

trying to sell and convince them of

something, but maybe like it's a system

that I just don't want to build. Um, or

they want a system that I don't think is

going to help them. Uh, I may pitch them

something else and go in a different

direction. And if they still don't want

the original system that I know is not

going to help or like not going to have

a good return, then I may just say like,

"Hey, it's just not a good fit. like

let's keep in touch but you know it it's

not a fit right now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. I love that concept

of not qualifying at the beginning but

qualifying at the end because I think uh

you know a lot of people will I don't

know do cold email and then they'll get

responses to cold email and they'll look

at the response they like I don't want

to work with that guy or I looked up his

website he doesn't have a web presence

or like she she just seems weird. I

don't like her look whatever the hell it

is right and it's like whoa what do you

mean? Like people don't always put their

whole lives online. You can't deduce or

induce like everything about a person

just based off of a little text

response. Like I've I've had like some

cold email campaigns where somebody

gives me a oneliner and it's like let's

do it lowercase and then I you know I'm

like oh crap I don't want to work with

these guys. But then I just give them a

call and they end up being the most

wonderful people on earth and they also

end up having like very specific

problems that I can help with. But yeah,

>> if you just don't get on a call, you'll

never know.

Yeah, 100%. Like that's I've had the

same thing like people resp reply like

yes to like an email campaign and you're

like oh like I don't want to give them

the time of day but it's like some of

those have turned into like thousands of

dollars like like they say yes like take

the effort and follow it get them on a

call and then talk to them. Like don't

worry about they're not a they're not

upset at you if they said yes. Like they

want to talk to you. So like get on a

call and then and then figure it out

from there.

>> Yeah. Speaking of clients in general, um

do you have any really difficult client

stories for us? You don't have to be

specific about who, but uh just in the

in general.

>> Um I have a few different stories. Not

like I don't have like any horrible

clients or like really like just things

have just exploded. Um I've done a few

dumb things myself for my clients. Like

I remember one of the very first

retainer clients I ever had. Uh he

needed help supporting his go high level

systems. Uh he essentially wanted

somebody to like manage like the funnel

and like the email and SMS campaigns.

And one of the first text messages he

wanted to send was a text blast to like

the 5,000 people he had in his uh CRM.

So like these are people that like opted

in through an ad or whatever. and he

wanted to say like, "Hey, this is who

whoever it was. This is him. Is this

their name?" So, like he wanted to like

get engagement from them. So, I queued

up the message. He's like, "Send it out

to all 5,000." I sent it out to all

5,000. And like if you ever worked in go

high level, you know that like there's a

difference between the variable that is

the contact name and the username.

And I included the username, which was

my name. So,

hey, this is whoever. Is this Justin?

So, 5,000 people got that text and then

I mean a couple hundred replied like no.

Like, unsubscribe. Stop. Like, no, this

is not Justin. Uh, so I thought I was

going to get fired by that. Like, I

thought this was like okay, like this is

an unforgivable mistake. It never is. Um

like he was like, "Hey, like don't do

that again." And I was like, "Believe

me, I'm not like I now know the

difference in the variables." Um and

then it was fine. Like it it worked out.

Send another text and it was good.

>> I think I distinctly remember it was

either like a text conversation you and

I were having or over a call like this

where you you were anticipating what

your limit would be. And the reason why

I ask is because I think a lot of people

do they try and estimate their limit.

They say, "Well, I have two clients

right now and it's assuming consuming

this much time." And you know, I only

have this much time available, so I can

only take on another one. And you know

what I always say to that is typically

like, well, you don't know your limit

until you've hit it. So why don't you

just try hitting your limit at least

once in your life for God's sake. So

just keep going. Keep going until you

can't go anymore. And I'm pretty sure I

said that to you in some respects. It

was on one of your posts or whatever.

And and you took that to heart. It

sounds like you actually hit your limit.

>> Yeah. I mean, you use those exact words.

They're like, "You don't know what your

limit is until you hit it. Like, go and

find your limit." And I was like,

"Okay." Like, that's that's the goal.

I'm going to go find my limit. Um, kept

taking sales calls. Kept taking sales

calls.

>> Was starting to like push out work for

clients that I was selling. So, I was

selling under the pretense. we can start

two weeks and then it was three weeks

and then it was a month and then it was

two months and then the work stacked up

on top of that and I was getting things

that I should have been doing and I

couldn't I just a task that I should be

doing that I couldn't do and I was like

okay like I'm not going to number one

risk my regular job while I still do

need it still has like some some use in

in my day-to-day. Um, but the only other

option was just to back off some of

that, which which I did. But yeah, I

mean, I remember you telling me that

exact thing was go find your limit. And

I was like, "All right,

>> we'll do it."

>> Yeah. It's kind of like at the gym,

right? Like how do you know how strong

you are unless you PR, you know, you hit

the big bench press or the squat. Like

that has now reoriented you. And I think

it's also helped you figure out like

what it is that you want out of life.

Like presumably if you're making 23

grand with your uh business, you're

probably making some additional I don't

know how much with your job. like there

is a limit to how much one person can

feasibly economically produce in

whatever business model. I mean ours is

definitely special. I think if you were

in another business model you might

achieve a quarter of that. But um you

know that takes me to the question like

now that you've achieved this and and

and it was alone to be clear right like

it was a you thing. You did this

yourself essentially under like a

freelancing model.

>> Yeah. I'm a solo business owner solo

found. Yeah.

>> Now that you've achieved this with like

solo, uh, where do you anticipate taking

your business? And we'll get into like

exactly what you're selling and all that

stuff later, but I just wanted to really

get to know this out of selfishness.

>> Yeah. I mean, like I mean, money is not

always the only thing that matters. So,

I've thought a lot about what else I

want to do, the impact I want to have,

the the people I want to help, like who

I want to be in service to. That's

that's important to me. But, you know,

pure monetarily, I want to hit 50K once

is where I want to go. Um, you know, my

next target this year is going to be 25K

per month. Uh, which is pretty in reach

from where I'm looking at it right now.

Uh, and then the the goal after that

would be hit 50K months. And you know, I

already have a developer that I'm

working with on the fulfillment side of

things. Um, actually found him through

Maker School. I met him in the

community. Uh, which just another bonus

that's been great. Um, but yeah, I'm

envisioning going to 25K and then to 50K

months.

>> Nice. I think that's totally doable. And

I think um, you know, a lot of people

they scale too early. Like they'll try

hiring somebody before they even have

their first $10,000 month well before

they've hit their limit and then they

scale a really inefficient business

model. But you've like really pushed up

like the revenue per staff in your one

person business, right? you've proven

you can make you if you take into the

time account your your full-time job

probably at least $30,000 of economic

just in the lob value. um kind of think

about that. It's like, okay, I can scale

that. You know, an additional person,

maybe that's another 20K. Additional

person, that's another 20K. I think 50K

is probably in the low end of what you

could reach if you really sat down and

focused, which I would obviously like

you to do. [laughter]

>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's what I'm

kind of doing right now. I'll get into

the where I'm at right now with with

things because a lot has changed

recently, but that is that is what I'm

thinking about right now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, let's do

the more traditional thing, I guess. And

why don't you walk us through like what

was like your intro into AI and

automation? Um, what were you doing

before uh did you go to school, so on

and so forth? What have you tried? And

then, um, you know, walk us through kind

of like your first initial few steps,

whether it was in the community, outside

of the community, and what ultimately

got you to where you are today.

>> Yeah, so my background is in supply

chain operations management. So I have a

degree from uh business school for

supply chain. I've worked up until very

recently as a consultant and then a

project manager at a supply chain

software company.

So that's more of the enterprise level.

I was working with very large global

clients doing consulting on their supply

chain and then general like software

implementations.

Um, so I've had a background since I

graduated school a little on the

technical side, but you know, not like

I'm not a software engineer. I'm not a

developer. Um, just general like client

management, like some like technical

prowess, few things like that. Um, and

then in 2024, I was introduced to like

kind of the world of AI automation kind

of as like a a side project, like a

passion project almost. Um, I'm really

into music and I'm really into like

records. Like I collect like vinyl

records and I just wanted a way to like

find good records to listen to without

like having to like sort through like

Spotify or just sort through like the

the millions of of records and artists

out there. Um, so I got into looking

into like Spotify's API and I got into

like how would I extract that

information and then I was like, okay,

well maybe I can use this and pump it

into like an AI tool and get some like

interesting analytics and some insights

about it and then maybe I can go back

and hit Spotify's API to find like

another similar record to ones that I've

liked in the past. And then I went down

the route of like, okay, well, how do I

automate this? And I think I found one

of your videos, one of it might have

been your your make.com like course. Um,

it's been out there for a while and I

kind of went down the path of figure out

how to automate things and just build

like a self-sustaining system of sorts.

And then eventually I was like, "Oh,

like this is pretty cool. I wonder if I

could like sell this or use this into

like a business." Um, I've always wanted

to start my business. I've been

entrepreneurial for as long as I can

remember. Just haven't had like the

opportunity or like I haven't been

convinced of something until I really

started playing around with these tools.

Um, and 2024 is when everything kind of

really started kind of taking off. Um,

so I ended up joining another community

uh that helped me get a business like

off the ground. So had an LLC. I kind of

started to learn the concepts of like

what are people selling as an AI agency

or a service or automation services. Um,

and then I went through a whole process

of like six to eight months where I

didn't really make any money and I kind

of just banged my head against the door

and I had to like figure out like what I

didn't know in business which for me

personally was sales and marketing. Uh

so I you know have a good background in

operations. I know how to look at an

operation and and find the bottleneck

and and you know kind of keep going down

the chain of of reactions and

make a business more efficient. But I

didn't understand how to like market

myself or sell another business. So you

know I went through a full period of

really like just trying to figure that

out like getting on as many sales calls

as I possibly can. um you know so much

stuff like like just spinning my wheels

for a long time. Uh and then I joined

your community in mid2025

and I was already over the hump a little

bit of doing some lead generation as

like my priority. So like that was one

thing I had to focus on was like lead

generation needs to be your priority

especially if you're just starting a

business. Um really in most businesses

that's bottleneck is lead generation. Uh

so joined your community um you know met

a few people was on a few calls and I

think like two weeks later I closed like

the 5k project in a retainer

>> and then from there it was kind of like

like like

this is possible like like kind of blew

my mind a little bit. Um, and one of the

first things you recommended, I

remember, was to read through the wins

channel inside the community as well and

just like familiarize yourself and like

normalize myself with like the wins that

people are having. Um, and then from

there, you know, I'll get into the

specifics on like how I really scale

that up, but like that was the key for

me was like just getting around people

doing that, close that big project, and

then from there was like, okay, this is

possible. I can I can like do something

with this.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You just need to really

prove it to yourself. It sounds like um

>> really reminds me like the 4-minute

mile. Uh just thinking about my own

behavior with business. Like so many

things for me were previously completely

incomprehensible. The fact that you

could I don't know in my in my time cold

call somebody and then convince them to,

you know, read through your proposal and

then convince them to send you over a

bunch of money before you even like

physically sat down and and shaking

their hands. That for me used to be a

major limiting belief. And then I just

made a friend who did that. And then I

was like, "Oh, that guy knows how to do

that. So I guess it's possible. And then

I started approaching it, you know, in

an entirely like, oh, this isn't some

impossible thing that I'm trying to do

for the first time. It's like, no, this

actually very standard operation that

people do all over the world all the

time. And so like as humans, I think we

just put so much like emphasis on these

things and then we don't realize, wait,

there are people doing this like 24/7.

I'm not really innovating, which um is

also interesting because a lot of people

think that in order to be successful in

business, they need to innovate

inherently. And it's like you really

don't. It's like how successful do you

want to be? you want to make 20k a

month, 50k a month, 100k a month, like

that's a very small slice of very many

markets and you can almost always carve

that out regardless of how competitive

an industry is. Anyway, I did um just

while listening to you have a have a

question.

>> How important would you say your

pre-existing kind of like logistics, you

know, project management and and sort of

like educated um side was to running

this sort of business and really like

getting it off the ground. Do you feel

like it was essential? Do you think

somebody could do something like that

without that knowledge?

>> Yeah, I mean 100%. like from where I'm

at like I think I've said this before I

just had a skill set of operations and

like supply chain and like business oper

like business operations for lack of a

better term that helped me like I can't

say it didn't help me in certain senses

but um you know maybe somebody has a

background in sales and marketing like

you're going to get off the ground much

quicker because you can go into a sales

call you can go market yourself you can

you know convince convince people to

sign a contract and send you money on

Stripe. Like, you know, that very well

probably would get you further than

where I got in a shorter amount of time.

So, like everybody has like a skill set.

It's more so about just knowing like

what are your strengths and using that

to your advantage. Like, you know, when

I did sell a client and I did have a

project, I knew how to manage that

project. I knew how to like fulfill. I

knew how to like, you know, provide

customer service. Um, but I had to also

like learn my weaknesses, which you

know, if you would asked me when I

started like, "Are you good at sales or

good at marketing?" I would probably

like, "Yeah, like I [laughter] I can

sell like sure, like I'm personable,

like fine." Um, and then I get on a

sales call and like I'm like, like don't

know what to say, like sweating, like

don't know what I'm pitching, don't know

what I'm talking about. Like so like

somebody who has a background in

whatever it is like you can use that to

your advantage and then you can just

learn what your weaknesses are and

capitalize on that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Um so when you

got that first client um after sort of

doing the the daily outreach steps and

stuff, what was that project for?

>> First client, very first client I got

was actually a three like case study is

what I sold. M

>> I sold that doing LinkedIn outreach

very early on. Um kind of just like

let's hop on a call. Let me just dissect

like your business and your bottleneck

and see where I can help with like some

AI and automation tools. And um I the

guy was like so great like we had a

background. He lived in the same city

that I did for a while. Um he was also

newly starting his business. It was a

veterinarian business. Um, which not a

great marketing battle, [laughter]

>> but basically I was setting up an email

follow-up uh system for him. So like if

you ever take your dog to the vet, like

a dental procedure is very expensive. So

they were creating all these estimates

for dental procedures but didn't have a

way to follow up on them. So it was a

pretty like basic automation that

followed up on that and it actually had

good results. Um, and I leverage that,

like I turn that into a video

testimonial. Um, I sometimes still even

use like that case study as an example.

Like you might see on my website or you

might see it like somewhere else on

Upwork or something. Um, so like I was

very, you know, aware of getting the

result from that and then like

leveraging that as much as I could.

>> Right. And then when you segueed that

into, I imagine that $5,000 deal. Um,

how how how was that? What was that

vertical? What was that project for? And

and so on.

>> Yeah, that was through Upwork. And that

was kind of my first streak of

um, you know, like daily actions, which

was applying to three Upwork apps a day,

every single day. And I think I might

have hit that after 20 days or it was

like 20 or 25 days. Um, you know, I

already had a project or two that I had

under my belt on Upwork. I had a good

review. I made sure they put that there.

Um, you know, I think I watched like

your video on like how to optimize an

Upwork or just like how to use Upwork.

So, I did like a few small tweaks, was

applying to jobs every day. Uh then I

closed a

guy who had started a business reaching

out to investment companies because he

had connections or like investment

vehicles and he wanted these you know

private equity firms or family offices

to invest in his like vehicles that he

had for investing. So that was like a

lead generation system. It was a CRM

build and then it was like maintaining

that for a few months. It sounds like,

you know, it started with one thing and

then it continued a little bit as well.

Um, of the deals that you've gotten

since then. What portion would you say

have turned into longerterm

relationships outside of just that

initial?

>> Yeah, it's hard to think of like a like

a percentage because there's so many

like one-off things that I that I'm

doing and like I I think that most of my

clients I work with on an ongoing basis

at this point. um in like what capacity

it sometimes depends like sometimes a

business will need uh you know somebody

that's like an AI and automation expert

for a few months or sometimes they'll

need it for a year. Um and I tend to

just try to you know create a

relationship and a partnership with

somebody where like they know that I'm

going to not like oversell them. I'm

going to like help them with what they

need help on. So most of my clients, I

start with a project and then I upsell

to a retainer. And usually that upsell

process is like, hey, I notice these

three or four things that we can fix,

you know, outside of the project or

maybe it's a few things to add on to the

project. Um, you know, what I do is I

typically with clients that I like offer

retainers and you know, I want to see if

you want to do a retainer 20 hours a

month, 25 hours a month, whatever it is.

Uh, and then we go to like that monthly

basis.

>> Are a lot of your deals um like hourly

based still or are they fixed price or

how are you navigating the actual

pricing aspect?

>> Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about

that recently and I might change my

structure as I kind of go full-time. Um,

you know, usually most my projects are

fixed fee and I'll do 50% up front, 50%

on delivery. Gives me a little incentive

to start out the projects, right? gives

more incentive to deliver it.

>> Also like has client buy in as well.

Like like I would never start a project

and be like, "Oh, you can pay me $10,000

like two months from now." Like

>> disaster.

>> Yeah. Like who knows? Like maybe they

disappear, maybe they don't want to pay

you. Like they don't have the mind like

whatever it is. So I typically do a

fixed fee and then the retainer um you

know I calculate it as like a function

of my hours. Um I'll say like hey this

is generally like 20 hours. Uh, I try

not to be like as dependent on the

hourly structure. So, sometimes it'll be

less, sometimes it'll be maybe at 20

hours, a little bit more. Um, but I try

to tie more so deliverables into that

versus like you'll just have me for 20

hours.

>> Right. Right. Yeah. I think a lot of

people do their retainer transition

pretty naively. Like they'll start with

hours because that's just the simplest

and easiest way to get somebody to say

yes to them obviously. And then they'll

be like, "Oh, why don't I package these

hours, discount them?" So instead of me

working, you know, 15 to 25 hours a

month ad hoc, I'll just do 20 hours a

month and give you a 10% discount. But

um, you know, they're still technically

just selling the hours. It's like, oh,

here's 50 bucks an hour times 20, you

know, pretty pretty straightforward. The

simplest step outside of that, you know,

just because you talked about ways to

change this, for instance, is just by

like converting a small chunk of those

hours into a deliverable that may still

require time, but that isn't necessarily

time. For instance, if your retainer

right now is uh 50 bucks an hour, 20

hours, $1,000 a month, maybe what it is

at this first step is like 15 hours, but

then you also get a weekly strategy

call, and you also get, you know, some

Slack Q&A available between this time

period and that time period. Now, it's

like you're realistically still spending

time fulfilling that, but you're

shifting the proportion of total value

in the retainer from 100% hours to like,

you know, maybe 50% hours, 50% like

fixed. So, I think as you proceed down

that transition, your internal hourly

rate, like not the one you tell a client

about, but the one that like you're

actually making when all said and done,

it's probably going to go way up.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a good advice because

that's what I've been focused on. Like,

you know, like, hey, I want to hit 25K a

month. I backtrack that into like say I

can comfortably service or I want to

service like eight clients. Like, okay,

that retainer is 3,25.

then say, okay, if I'm gonna sell an

hourly service, say it's 20 hours, you

know, that's going to be more than what

I can do per month.

>> So, like maybe I need to position that

or offer that in a different capacity.

It's not an hourly basis. It's results

basis or it's,

>> you know, uh, deliverables plus all

these add-ons essentially like you're

like your thing. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think a lot of people look down

on hourly and they're like, "Oh, like

the hustle guru bros say hourly is for

losers, so I don't want to do it." But

um I did a lot of hourly when I started.

It just made sense. You know, trade your

time for money. We're we're all trading

our time for money in some way. By the

way, um 25 a month is uh assuming you

work 160 hours a month like most people

try to. It's uh about $150

uh an hour or so. So if you can do 150

bucks an hour and make your internal air

larger than that, you will effectively

have hit your 25k a month goal. Very

doable.

>> Very doable. Yeah, 100%. Very doable.

>> What would you say, you know, achieving

this level of income has changed for you

in your life?

>> I mean, like the big one is like it just

gave me the opportunity to quit my 9

to5. So, like that's always been kind of

like my goal is to be able to go

full-time. Like I know that's not an

easy thing to do. And like I was very

almost like cautious with it where like

I always had a job that was paying me

decently well and I didn't want to lose

that like security for it and I know

that if I was going to do it I was I was

going to do it in like the right way.

Like I needed to like feel confident

about the outlook of it. Um, so my goal

initially was to have three months in a

row where I was at or exceeding my

salary and then that was going to be

like kind of like the confirmation to

myself that like okay like I can do this

especially like on top of the 9 to5.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So that was my goal. I actually made

that goal January 1st this year. Um I

hit that goal January, February, March.

>> Pretty wild.

>> Three months. three months in a row that

was like I didn't miss the goal and then

I was like wow like okay like this is

this is real this is awesome. The fact

too that you like you made this and then

like you know usually there's like at

least a little bit of a time before you

hit the thing, but you did like no I

made the goal I hit it that month and

then the next month and the next month

like I really look forward to you making

another public one within maker school

like that that's going to be really cool

man cuz you hyped up like half of the

group like when you were doing you know

just the simplest daily deliverable ever

right it was like three upper caps and I

think you were doing some other outreach

stuff but anyway the three upper caps

are the main core stuff right that hyped

and then people seeing the results you

had that hyped everybody up through the

roof. You had like a 100 Justin

lookalike spawn being like, I'm doing

three now. I'm going to do three.

>> I thought it was like a common thing.

Um, I didn't even know where I chose

three from, but I it was like, okay,

like what's what's like not the easiest

thing to do, but like not the hardest

thing to do. Like where can I just like

start like a habit and then like I call

I call it like don't break the chain.

Like that's kind of like my mantra or

like my system for it. Um, you can

actually like kind of see like this X

calendar up on my board in the office

here. Like,

>> yeah,

>> that's me every single day like crossing

out a day on the calendar where like I

just hit what I was supposed to hit.

Like

>> I so I actually took that from, believe

it or not, Jerry Seinfeld. He

>> right

>> I probably posted about that but he has

an interview where he talks about like

his writing process for these shows or

his jokes or whatever and he was like

I'm like dumb simple like I'm just

motivated by like seeing something

written out and then not wanting to like

break that. So like like I see an X a

red X on the calendar every day which is

me saying okay for the past 45 days I've

done three Upwork apps a day I posted

about it in the community and I've like

had my cold email running which was like

my other kind of like item that I was

doing and I was like okay like 45 days

in a row like today is not going to be

the day I'm going to break it like I'm

going to do it today I'll figure it out

tomorrow if I don't want to do it

tomorrow and then every day it just like

stacks on top of each

There's something to be said about not

aiming for perfection, but just aiming

for like checking the box, you know. Um,

to borrow another gym analogy, sometimes

I go work out with friends. I'm not like

the most ripped guy by any means, but

you know, I put I put down a good bench,

you know, got two plates in the tank,

but

>> thanks. Uh, I sometimes I work out with

guys and then I have like a pretty chill

workout. You know, it's like 45 minutes.

I try and go every day. It's like a

couple exercises, but usually, you know,

I I break a slight sweat, but I kind of

leave and I'm like feeling pretty good.

Like I'm not like wiped or anything.

Sometimes I go work out with some

friends and they're just like, "What are

you doing? Playing life on easy mode,

bro. Like you got to go all out."

They'll they'll like hammer 500

exercises, super set stuff. And they're

like, "Yeah, that's how you do it." And

I'm always just like, "Well, how many

days in a row have you been in the gym?"

Like I feel like the most important

thing here is not actually, believe it

or not, doing the best possible thing

per day. It's like if you zoom out, it's

like, can you do the best possible thing

per year? And you know, if you can

commit to something that you can do

every single day for a full year, I

think your outcomes in anything, whether

it is, you know, growing your traps so

it looks like hose veins attached to

your head or uh I don't know, making a

business work for you. Like I feel like

that's that's the real precursor to

success. So, I'm really glad you said

that, Justin.

>> Yeah, you don't need to bench 300 every

single day. Like you can [laughter]

do a little bit. Do like how about do

like 50 push-ups a day. Like do like

something that like is reasonable and is

not going to kill you and is not going

to like burn you out in a matter of like

two weeks and then like just like put it

somewhere where like you can't ignore

it. Like write it down and then like

hold yourself accountable to it every

day.

>> Just out of curiosity, that's your

that's your bedroom or your office, I

take it. And then you just have that

whiteboard up. So every time you go in,

you literally can't not see it.

>> Yeah. So this is the office. So every

time I walk in before I sit down, I look

in right in the right at the whiteboard.

So um yeah, I'm not going to miss it

essentially.

>> James Clear talks a lot about that. He

wrote a book called Atomic Habits for

anybody listening that doesn't know of

him. And um one of the simplest like

little habits for instance for him I

think was just like putting his vitamins

out like on his table or something.

Hopefully I'm not hallucinating this,

but like literally the he found that if

he just put the vitamin from the cabinet

and just put it on the table, he would

take it like 800% as often. And it's

just because he would be walking to the

kitchen, he'd see it, he'd be like, "Oh,

have I taken that? No, I haven't taken

that today." And then go take it.

>> So it's like, isn't that weird how even

a tiny little drop of environment design

can have large downstream impacts on

like your results over a year?

>> Yeah. Yeah. and then like compound that

over a year. It's like, okay, it's a

matter of like that may be like a matter

of like $100,000. Like you you may

literally like make $100,000 more

because you have something as stupid as

a calendar that you look at.

>> Yeah.

>> Every single day. So

>> it's ridiculous. Life's funny that way,

man. Everybody gets you hooked on like

this grind culture thing where it's like

wake up and grind, you got to do all the

work. And it's like no, actually I just

like took a bottle out of a cabinet and

put it on a table and now I'm like

fantastic. [laughter]

Yeah, there's a there's a book that I

recommend to a lot of people. It's

called The Dip by Seth Goden.

>> Um kind of about the same thing. It's

about like compounding interest. And

what he talks about is like so often you

start to see a little like rise in

result and then you dip where all of a

sudden it seems like something changed

or it's not going to work. and he talks

about like that is a point where most

people quit and most people don't like

to get out when in reality if it's

something that you really want it's

something that you're putting a lot of

effort towards like you need to wait

till you get past the dip and then

that's when the results shoot back up

like it goes to potential

>> and I recommend that so much because

I I read the book [clears throat] before

and like I kind of forgot about it and

then I was watching my revenue with the

business and I was watching it. It kind

of went up a little bit. Some people

like hired me as like

just help on a project like essentially

like assisting people. So I had a little

bit of revenue come in and then I had no

revenue for like three or four months

and like I was doing things what I

thought would help every single day. I

was putting the effort towards it and I

was actually getting close to the point

of quitting and my now wife was like,

"No, like you're doing a lot. Like just

stick it out." And then literally like

it followed the exact cover on the book

like the revenue shot back up after

that.

>> Damn. Damn. Talk about Yeah. buying the

dip, huh? That's wild. That book. I

don't think I've ever actually heard of

that before today. So, thank you.

>> Yeah. Don't sell the dip. Buy the dip. I

feel like so many people talk themselves

out of like even working with clients

cuz they're like, "What if I screwed up

that bad?" Like that would be the the

game over. But as we've seen, it's like

don't qualify all the stuff ahead of

time. Don't like try and talk yourself

out of something. Just like do it and

know that you will make mistakes like

that. But most people are going to be

pretty forgiving.

Like that's so funny, man. [laughter]

Hey, this is Justin. Is this Justin?

>> Justin.

>> Like you have all these hot leads like

people like

>> just just signed up. They're like, "Oh,

awkward business." They text them, "Hey,

this is Justin." Like, no. [laughter]

>> You know what's funny, though? That's

actually like um that used to be a

technique. You would you would actually

get somebody's name wrong. Um I don't

know if it was like during a I don't

think it was like reactivation, but like

Yeah. Like you do outreach, you'd ask

like, "Hey, is this blank?" Person would

be like, "No, it's not." And then you'd

be like, "Oh, okay. This must be insert

other person's name instead." They be

like, "Oh, yeah, it is." So, like, "What

the hell? How did you know about this

person? How do you know about me?"

>> Um

>> yeah,

>> that was what I was doing.

>> That worked. [laughter]

You know, I I tried a new strategy, Mr.

Client. And uh [clears throat] you know,

using this new technique, [laughter]

>> we're going to slide in. We're going to

slide around. We're going to get into

back door. No. [laughter]

>> Um All right, man. I mean, like this has

been a pretty fun chat, but um you know,

if you had like, let's just say, I don't

know, somebody comes in and somehow only

watches the end of this. Um, if you had

like one piece of advice to give to

somebody that's on the fence, they're

not entirely sure if they should start

this business, uh, maybe just any

business, like what what words would you

have them?

>> Yeah, I mean, a few like key themes that

that I would want to say like to myself

starting out, you know, I think would be

like number one, optimize for the right

thing in the business. So the same way

that if you work on a funnel in a

business, the top of the funnel is

marketing and sales and then then

onboarding and then fulfillment then

customer service like focus on the top

first. So focus on market like focus on

sales calls essentially. Uh that where

the money is that is where you're going

to get feedback. That is where your

business is essentially running from. So

don't build something and then try and

sell it. Don't try to optimize for

something that you don't need to

optimize for. Um, and then to me like

just start a streak. So decide what

you're optimizing for. Start a streak to

do that. Uh, in my case it was three

Upwork apps a day, cold email, and then

just like sales calls essentially. Um,

don't break the chain is what I've

called that. Uh, and then just like

really like once you like start moving

the ball, don't stop it. And like just

be like useful to a client. like just

provide like a good service and be

professional and personable and like

overd deliver for them. Especially for

your first few clients. Um like you want

like you're not doing the first five or

10 for money. Like you're getting a

review, you're building your skills,

you're building a partnership, you're

getting referrals. So like try and like

just be of service and be of good

service or like exceptional service.

And then um you know what really helped

me is like joining a community. So

joining your community just normalize

being a part of a group of people doing

the same thing. Leverage the people in

that group. Like one of the first things

I did when I joined the community was I

reached out to somebody who was doing

code email and I paid them to like help

me set it up and consult with it. Uh so

like just like leverage the people

around you, like leverage your community

and um yeah, if you do that like winning

is is inevitable. It'll happen.

>> I love that man. Justin, thanks a lot

for your time. I wish you continued

success and I have no doubt in my mind

that you will get it.

>> Thank you, dude. Thanks for talking,

man.

>> Yeah, rock on. Just