Before the Emmy Awards, before the

television shows, before millions of

people knew his name, Andrew Zimmer lost

everything. His career, his home, his

sense of purpose. But what happened next

became one of the greatest reinventions

in modern media. Today, we're talking

about resilience, curiosity, and why

sometimes your greatest setbacks become

the foundation for your greatest

success. I'm Ian Schwarzman and this

[music] is Built Different.

>> You, my friend, are a 1960s

New York City kid.

>> Marched and everything in ' 68 and ' 69.

Radicalized mother who had just gone

through a divorce from a father who told

her when I was five that he had fallen

in love with a man and was moving down

to the West Village. So I grew up with

two dads, a mom who was rebelling

against everything, an incredible codery

of friends in a city that was exploding.

It was so exciting. The music, the food

exist for you.

>> Oh god, yes.

>> We had our prom at Studio 54. We went to

I went to opening night of Studio 54

with my parents who opening night at

Studio 54.

>> Yeah. Invite is hanging in my bathroom

at my house.

>> That's a real collectible. You know

that. We went we went all the time

because our parents were there. Their

friends were there.

>> But you had a plug at Studio 54.

>> Yes. But so did half the kids in my high

school.

>> That was normal.

>> New York was very different back then.

>> Which brings me to this. How did you get

into the culinary arts? What inspired

you?

>> Was there a earnest desire in my part to

get into cooking since my earliest

memory? Yes. Because I had fallen in

love with food. I had seen its power

thanks to my parents. I had we spent a

lot of time in restaurants. We travel to

eat and we

>> Was this your dad or your mom? And

>> both.

>> So both sides. How do you look at your

dad? Your actual paternal father. Like

how do you look at him?

>> Um

>> who was he to you?

>> Uh my biggest hero. Uh person I put up

on a pedestal. And at the same time, I

mean, you know, I'm 35 years sober, so

I've I've done

>> Congratulations, by the way.

>> I've done a a shitload of trauma work.

And I remember being at a uh treatment

facility. You know, every year, every

other year, I do these tune-ups where

you go somewhere for three or four days.

You just do a little work on emotional

sobriety. I'm very into it. It it it

breeds happiness and calm in my life.

And uh the person who was facilitating

this this small group of three men kind

of working through their their crap

asked me why I kept referring to my

father as as a hero. He pointed out a

couple of things reading directly off of

an intake form that I had filled out

literally. And he said, "Your dad did X,

Y, and Z." And and I said, "Yeah, but"

and I made the the excuses for him that

I had made up in my mind all the time.

And you know, I finished by saying,

"Look, I didn't come with an instruction

book. Parents do the best they can." And

the the the fellow just looked at me and

and he said, "You're a dad, right?" And

I said, "Yes." He says to me,

"Switch roles. You're your dad.

>> Your son is you. Tell the story to me

now. Do you do A, B, and C?" And I was

like, "Absolutely not. That would be

horrible for hit." And I just and I just

melted and an hour or two later they

were able to get all the puddles

together and ring me back out into a

bucket and rebuild you.

>> Yeah. Re Exactly. Right.

>> That's actually really amazing.

>> So there So yes, a lot of trauma at the

same time.

>> People came to our house and ate amazing

food. My my parents loved to cook and I

saw the joy

>> that food gave their guests. I I went to

restaurants all around the world with my

father. I traveled around the world two

or three times with him before I was 18.

And he would just say like

>> sounds exciting.

>> The best I I thought it was the best

education.

>> So that has to be the inspiration for

the travel side. But I'll let you

finish.

>> Oh, 100%. I saw what happens when you

actually are in a culture, not observing

one, not being performative, not doing

touristic cosplay, which is which is the

the the horror show that most people

>> Yeah.

>> I think I wrote my first book, you know,

be a traveler, not a tourist. You know,

there's a big difference. Being a

traveler means being open to the

transformation that will take place,

right? When you put the things out there

that travel offers, when I am traveling,

I am the best version of me. I'm asking

more questions. I'm more patient with

other people,

>> right? I mean, it it

>> I mean, the minute there's a hiccup

here, I can't get a cab,

>> you know? I'm I'm exploding on the

inside. I'm in I'm in a foreign city. I

don't speak the language. I'm like,

well, I'm going to ask someone for help.

I'm going to see if there's like like

this is the adventure,

>> right? turn it turns you into a

different per you

>> 100% you're able to

>> import back into your life

>> some of those things and little by

little you change and if you keep

venturing out you keep bringing more

things back into your life that you

learn on the road and I think you become

a globalist which I think is ideally

suited for today's times I feel very

blessed that I got to see and do the

things that I that I saw and did to

prepare me for what would happen when my

life became public 25 years ago.

>> Okay,

>> which thank God it did at age 40 and not

at age 25. I I mean we've seen the the

meltdowns notoriety brings to young

people who aren't prepared for it.

>> It could be overwhelming and sometimes

you get lost in it, right? Like

>> I've watched people get lost in it.

>> Did you get lost in it?

>> I would argue no. I would I would think

that uh there are other people in my

life who might argue yes and I think the

truth is probably somewhere in between

there of course.

>> However, I I would not have made it if I

had gotten

some form of notoriety earlier in my

life

>> because

>> because I I I had never until I was 32

years old said the words I don't know

how to do blank. Can you help me? I

thought I'd do everything, handle

everything on my own. And I constantly

was thinking you had something that I

wanted, I wasn't going to get what I

needed.

>> And once I found that I could medicate

those feelings,

>> you did it.

>> Stuffing it down became a lot easier.

And

then society helped me out a little bit.

I was probably most guilty as I turned

15, 16, 17 of compare despair really

mindset. The story that I would make up

was like, "Wow, this guy is happy. He's

got everything. He doesn't have to show

it. He's just like, he's so confident

and smart and glib. Look at this."

>> And this is all in your head.

>> Oh, yeah. Of course. And not by the way,

most of the time not true. All human

beings have problems. Everyone does

their, you know, puts on their costume

in the morning.

>> It's important to be able to go home and

be able to be yourself.

>> Correct.

>> Cuz I I I know for you, 25 years of

multiple shows, incredibly large

franchises, business partnerships,

sponsorships, endorsements, fame, money,

success, drug, all the whole thing. I I

know like there is some parallel between

like celebrity lifestyle and like a hot

chef. Well, here here's the here's the

thing. You know, you know, Food

Network's what, 31, 32 years old,

>> right?

>> I'm very very lucky that I wound up at

the big kids table in the food world.

Did I work hard for that? Sure. Did I

make a lot of moves intentionally that

put me in a position to get to that

table? Sure. Yes.

>> Did I draw a couple lucky cards at

various times in my life?

Abs fuckingutely. I mean, you you have

to remember when I started at Travel

Channel.

Travel Channel had just bought a cooks

tour, which was Tony's first show from

Food Network. It had been huge failure

at Food Network.

>> This is 2006ish,

>> more 2005ish,

right?

>> We then recorded a couple specials. They

had bought Tony's show. They were making

plans to edit and reair it. They liked

two of my ideas. One was World's Best

Ballpark Foods cuz I I love sports. I

thought that would be great. And the

food and sporting events is different

all around the world from Indonesian ox

cart races to Scottish Highlands games

to American World Series, right? So we

shot a pilot for that. It did about a

tenth of a share less than what became

Bizarre Foods. And so the network said,

"Yeah, we like Bizarre Foods." And I was

like, "Okay." And I thought to myself,

"Oh, I'm going to have to eat a lot of

bugs." And you know, the first year I

did, you know, then the the worm turned,

no pun intended, but you know, you get a

little more leverage and you get to tell

more stories and I got to make the show

that I really wanted to make. I kind of

>> pushed a Trojan horse right

>> into the the Discovery Building.

>> And you know, once once it was a hit, I

was gambling on it being a hit. I knew

that I could tell more stories about

people and culture and try to tell

stories about our commonalities in life.

And if you try to sell that show, if you

try to sell a show on the premise that

it's going to be good

>> for our pop culture,

>> right,

>> to have this

>> because we're starting to define

ourselves by our differences and not our

commonalities, they, you know, tell you

go take that to PBS and and make a

1-hour special and then you're going to

be dying for a job again.

>> If you make it more commercial, you

know, you're going to be on you could be

on TV for a long time. The lucky thing

was is that for they were retooling

Cook's tour to become what became No

Reservations, right?

>> And they put my show right before his

and um it it exploded.

>> Best ratings ever, I'm imagining.

>> Yeah, it was pretty fun.

>> Who was one person that you could look

back and go, I had nothing going on that

was good, but they believed in me?

>> My friend Andrew Flack. He was actually

tending bar in Minneapolis at a

restaurant that I was a chef in at the

point that I was transitioning. And by

the way, I was terrible back then. I

mean, you you have to do TV. Malcolm

Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule is true. You

have to do a lot of television to get

comfortable in front of a camera, to

actually talk, to make sense, to know

when to listen to someone, to shut your

yap is probably the the thing that is

hardest to learn, right? He He just kept

saying, "Keep doing it. Keep doing it.

Keep doing it." I had a couple friends

who said the same thing. But you know

what happens when you tell even the

people who love you the most? Oh yeah.

I'm going to have a TV show of my own.

You just wait and see. And they look at

you and go, "Oh my god, is he drinking

again?" I mean, literally, I would get

those looks from people. But I was

telling that to folks not because I was

trying to manifest it, but because I'm a

huge

student. I'm insanely curious. I'm more

teachable now than in any other point in

my life. But I was extremely teachable

all throughout my life. I want I I

wanted to learn because once I had said

to somebody, I don't know how to do

that. Can you show me? It became my new

addiction. I wanted to learn everything.

I'd say do hey I don't know how to do

this. Can you show me? And you know I

kept learning learning learning

learning. So I learned a lot about media

and I learned a lot about storytelling.

I learned a lot about the important

things that were necessary to get to

that point and I thought to myself I am

going to shape this and sell this and I

knew that there was a door that was open

but slowly shutting right but luckily

for me everyone was trying to tell sell

a show that looked like Emeralds

>> Emerald Lagassi Mr.

And and I mean that in a complimentary

sense, talking head behind a cutting

board. Right now, he was doing it at a

much bigger level with Emerald Live and

the talk show and the you know his own

style.

>> But Sarah Moltzen and all those

wonderful people who had started at Food

Network um were teaching people how to

cook. So I said, "Okay, I don't I don't

want to be the best. I want to be an

only." M

>> and so I went to Travel Channel with

this pitch at I thought I was in an

only. Turned out way in the background

of ownership's mind. They knew they had

the show they had just bought with

Bourdain.

>> Wow.

>> And Pat Young, who was running Travel

Channel at the time, uh a brilliant,

brilliant man. They don't make them like

Pat Young anymore. uh had the the idea

of creating a network of immersive

explorers in the Bourdain Zimmer mold.

And you know, he put us on that night

and then just started expanding the

slate with people who did that kind of

remember Travel Channel before Tony was

Samantha Brown.

>> I remember it.

>> And then the other six nights of the

week was like world's best bathrooms,

world's best beaches, world's best palm

trees. They were unhosted. So after

three or four years of Tony and I being

on the same night and numbers were just

insane. We're up against Monday Night

Football and we had some nights that we

pulled better numbers than Monday Night

Football. That's insane.

>> And but we were very popular. And so

then they launched Adam Richmond and

Dani Jones and a whole host of other

people. Bert Chryser.

>> Oh my god.

>> Right. People forget Bert Chryser

basically started a travel channel.

>> That's crazy. I didn't even know that.

Did you ever feel like the rush or high

you got from chasing the success in

entertainment outweighed the rush and

high from getting high on substances?

Well, in order to stay sober, you you

have to do a lot of things. One of the

many things you have to do is find a

replacement for that that isn't some

other behavior that's just going to get

you in trouble. So

there were there were times

>> that

because you have to remember in the old

days you used to make things in a

vacuum. We wouldn't see the results for

a year.

>> Oh, right. You'd film and then go to

post and then you'd wait till it's

ready.

>> You wait.

>> The terror that grips you. Season one,

episode one rolls out, does okay.

>> Right. Episode two rolls out, same

number. Networks really love episode

three because they they they need the

audience to find the show,

>> right?

>> And episode three was our Ecuador

episode. It did a slightly smaller

number than one and two. And my agent

called me and he was like, "Look, uh,

you know, I'm not going to lie to you.

Most shows don't get picked up, you

know,

>> giving you like the story." The Travel

Channel had bought 10 episodes

10 episodes.

>> Oh, you're done already.

>> But one in every 200 shows that dip in

episode 3 picked back up again. Right.

It just doesn't happen. That's the the

statistic.

>> It just doesn't happen. The audience is

changing the channel. Right.

>> Right.

>> Wednesday afternoon, the phone rings,

woman introduces herself and says, "Hi,

I'm uh so and so from the Tonight Show

with Jay Leno." And I'm just like I I

thought it was my friend Michael and I

said a couple things and hung up.

>> Well, there's I mean

>> Leno, come on.

>> Yeah, I get it.

>> There's I'm a sealist cable guy with

three shows in the, you know, out in the

ether, right?

>> That's a big deal. The Leno show is not

calling me.

phone rings back again and she goes,

"No, this is really, you know," and and

I was like, "Okay, what can I do for

you?" And they said, "We just showed Jay

the clip of the Yakshi, the exorcist

medicine man

>> in Ecuador."

>> And he said, "Jay thought that was the

best thing he's seen in years. Can you

be out here tomorrow for the show?" And

I said, "That

>> no, but I can be out there Friday for

the show." And she called me back and

she said, "Okay, great." Well, the next

week, so the show was taped in the

afternoon on Friday. It aired Friday

night. The next Monday night's ratings,

episode 4, were through the roof. And

that was it. And by the way, the

production company had not put the

medicine.

>> I was going to ask you, did they set

that up?

>> No, there was no, not at all. The crew

the first year was producer, writer,

director, her boyfriend, the cameraman,

sound guy, also second camera. He set up

a stationary second camera.

>> Oh my god.

>> Right. And me, three of us. And in some

places there was budget to hire a

driver. And it was the three of us

writing the show, going through notes at

night, planning stuff. Everyone's

exhausted. We're in this little mountain

town in Ecuador. Our driver fixer guy

wants to show me a cobblestone area of

town. We go down there, I see this sign,

bruhera

and uh bruhero bruhero. And I'm like,

what is that? I said, is that witch? He

goes, which doctor? He goes, but it's

really an exorcist. This this [laughter]

particular this particular guy is a

yakshi. He's a tribal medicine man and

he does exorcisms. And I said, I want

one.

>> And he said, let me see. and he opened

they he said yeah he'll do it I went

running back I said 5 minutes and we

just filmed this thing and it became one

of those sort of iconic TV moments

>> right

>> being curious and being teachable and

wandering around

the town and asking questions what's

that sign is you know did I make my own

luck to get on the Tonight show I mean

you could argue that I would say yeah

>> I think it's I think it's pretty darn I

think that's the universe throwing a

solid my way.

>> I agree for whatever reason it chose to

that I I don't think anything in this

industry happens by chance. I think we

position ourselves close enough to what

we want and then it either happens cuz

you stick with it or it doesn't cuz you

don't.

>> Yeah. You know, the right people got to

be in the so many things have to happen.

But I I agree with that. I mean, I was

talking to my son last night. I said, I

don't believe that we are a a rock

curdling through space.

going nowhere endlessly, right? And my

son looked at me because this is what

21-year-olds do nowadays. And he said,

"Um, hey Bozo, we actually are a rock

[laughter] hurling through space." And I

said, "You're forgetting the pointlessly

going nowhere." I said, "I believe there

is a point to this. I do not know what

the the

you know lord or lady ship of the

universe looks like or is

>> but I do believe there's something more

powerful than us and I and I believe

that with every fiber of my being and

>> there's an intentionality to it and you

have to figure out what's the payback.

>> So for me the payback has always been

more and more service. I got a platform

and I'm not patting myself on the back.

I'm no saint, but I spend half my time,

you know, working for nonprofits, trying

to make a difference in the world,

advocating for the causes I believe in,

which are many. Uh, andrew Zimmer.com.

Go to the partners page. No payw wall.

Go visit our guy. Just want you to look

at his page,

>> but see the partners that we work with,

especially in the nonprofit space. It's

really important to me. And if you see

something that resonates with you, pass

that link on to your friends. Thousands

of free recipes, lots of other cool

stuff. No payw wall. But the partner

page is the most important page on my

website bar none. So I just sort of took

that on and I learned that you know in

my recovering life before the TV thing

ever ever started. So once I did get

this platform and all of a sudden after

episode three I mean the Jay Leno thing

>> I was going to say

>> you talk about the immediiacy of it.

Nobody, nobody stopped me on the street

the first three weeks that the show was

out and said, "Hey, saw the show last

night." Jay Leno happens. Monday night

happens.

>> So, you're famous after it was like

it was magic fairy dust.

>> Well,

>> Jay Leno was magic fairy dust.

>> Do you regret selling the rights to

Bizarre Foods? There was no choice.

David Zazzlov who's vilified in the

press these days the head of Warner

Brothers Discovery

>> when he took over Discovery Networks

literally the first thing he did was he

laid down the law and said we are going

to own every piece of content that we

put out because owning the content is

the only thing that matters 2030 years

from now and to have that kind of genius

as a business person was beyond my

ability.

to figure out. We're all angling to get

a piece of our own.

>> But but you but you said something

interesting. You were a writer that

didn't get writing credit, a creator

that didn't get creator credit, but but

you were an amazing talent that took

over the world with a couple great

things.

>> You're missing one other point.

>> Day one, when we went out to shoot, the

production company

>> and the talent, we had the same goal.

Let's make a hit show.

>> You were aligned. All that mattered.

>> Yes.

>> Were literally in lock step and they

loved me and I loved them. And the

minute the show became a hit, when

episode 4, season 1 aired,

>> we started to go down separate paths. So

because we had different goals.

>> The minute the show becomes a hit, you

have different goals.

>> Sensational.

>> That's why we No, that's why we at our

production company are very talent

focused. If talent has an idea and

talent has the is is what sells, right?

When someone comes in, we partner with

them in the truest sense of the word.

The production company that I was with

never made me partner in the show, which

was I mean I

>> that had to do something to you that

that made I just I noticed it. I mean,

we had one I think it was like six or

nine years in, but I was three-year

rolling contracts at Travel Channel, and

they would give you a couple percentage

points in in bump on your per episode

fee. We had a meeting with the network,

my lawyer, my agent, and I to

renegotiate my contract for another

three-year. We weren't going to sign

unless I got a significant bump. And

that Sunday night was the James Beard

Media Awards, and I won my second or

third one. you know, of course, because

I'm that guy. I walked into the meeting

with a blazer, no shirt, [laughter]

and the and the award hanging from my

neck. Head of the network at the time

just looked at me and he just said,

"Yeah, I think we're done here." And

turned to my agent, he said, "Just, you

know, put the number." I mean, he was

sort of exaggerating, make a point, but

he was like, "Just put the number down.

Let us know." You know, like what do you

Yeah. Like it. I mean, we get it. You

know, point made. That felt pretty good

when

three years later when they came to us

and said, "Look, you're you're making

really good dollars here. We're not sure

that we can give you the same kind of

percentage bump you got the last time."

And I said, "I don't want any bump at

all." And they said, "Nothing." I said,

"I want non-monetary comp. I want you to

buy 10 episodes of Show X from me.

Doesn't matter what it is. I have to

pitch it. It has to be accepted, right?

I mean, you can't just buy

>> your first look deal, basically, right?

But they're going to commit to it.

>> You have to.

>> Got it.

>> Coming up with ideas.

>> Oh, keep the price point the same. I'll

just buy more. You got to buy something

from me.

>> Okay.

>> What I was able to do was to create a

show that

>> while it didn't last very long, allowed

me to start to cash flow my production

company. So I didn't have to put up a

lot of dollars to, you know, get the

office, hire the crew because all the

money was a line item in a budget the

Travel Channel was paying. It was one of

the few smart ideas I've ever had in my

life. Literally. I mean,

>> that's not true. Everything you've done

is true.

>> It was very intentional and and it

worked and I was I was very proud of

that because it's kind of like

>> a lot of what we do in media is

checkers. There's certain tricks and

certain things and you can win and you

can be a better checkers player than

most other people, right? But that was

that that little part of the deal was a

good little chess move. That was one of

the few things that I've done where I'm

just like, "Wow." Cuz it's not

necessarily my strongest suit. Andrew,

what are you most misunderstood about?

Like if if over your career you could

say this one thing everyone thought I

was this way because of TV, but I really

believe this. What's one

>> easy? What is far and away there is

there is only one and there's only one

that I care about.

>> Uh people practice um contempt prior to

investigation. That is our human

instinct. We judge books by their cover.

>> Every single human being

>> loses parents. Relationships succeed and

fail. Money comes, money goes. I mean

it's just, you know, life is life. And I

think what people misunderstand

about folks in public life is that

somehow we're removed from that.

>> What I am most concerned with is that

everyone out there as we continually

create a larger divide between the

halves and have nots in this country,

that divide keeps growing. There is no

more middle class. I mean, the stock

market just had its record day

>> the other day while the rest of the

economy is absolutely falling to

and the world is burning down. So

there's a there there's a bubble coming.

I mean, you're just all this kind of

stuff, right? I mean, this you don't

have to be an economist to understand

this, right? It's not sus what we're

doing right now is not sustainable,

>> right?

>> The point is is that we all navigate the

same path. We all worry about our kids.

>> Yeah.

>> We all, I think, if your heart is in the

right place, are just trying to be a a a

good person.

>> And do we all make mistakes? Abs

blanking lutely. You know I make them

every single day.

>> Yeah.

>> But I would like people to understand

that it's not me who is also human

being. We are all human beings. We are

all in the same boat.

So we better practice a little bit more

empathy and kindness with each other.

And we better all make the boat a little

bit more ship shape. And I think that

for those of us that are have dedicated

a lot of time to that, it's more and

more important with every passing day.

>> I see it. I feel it. Um real life

um activities and occurrences, losing

people, losing gigs, uh having six high

highs, low lows. It's life.

>> Yeah.

>> And I do appreciate that because I feel

like you're right. There's the gap is

widening. there's no solution. People

are drifting away from like connectivity

and they're in outer space on their

phone and they don't you don't see

people doing anything creative the way

they used to. Actually, it's a lot of

step and repeat which is disappointing.

>> Yeah. You know, I I disagree with you a

little bit about I mean, we're we're in

a transition.

>> So, when you're in a in a boat and you

can't see land behind you and you can't

see land in front of you, it doesn't

mean that there isn't land on either

side. can't see it

>> and you just you just can't see it.

You're in that upside down space, right?

>> Yeah.

>> The thing that is important to remember

is that you know we have to stick the

word yet

>> at the end of those sentence like we

haven't found the answer yet. We haven't

solved this problem yet.

>> Uh as we end this show, this is

something special that I'm doing on

Built Different. At the end of each one

of these conversations, I present a one

of two, one of two, only two in the

world cards to each one of my guests

because I feel like it's something

special. So, if you don't mind,

>> Yeah.

>> I'm going to give you this one and I'm

going to hold the other one

>> front and back. All original design.

>> That is amaz It's It's my card.

>> It's you.

>> It's fantastic.

>> It's literally you. This is such a

thoughtful, amazing gift. And I'm kind

of obsessed with cards myself. And my I

have a friend in Chicago, Kevin B. He

really collects he has one of the great

card collections on planet Earth, but he

doesn't have this one.

>> Let him know I'm the only other person

that has

>> doesn't have this one.

>> Andrew, you're a gentleman. You're

inspirational. Thank you, sir. I hope

one day to have achieved what you have

and thank you for coming by. Built

different.