really important thing about open

[music] claw which is soul.md. So it's

like the soul of your agent that's going

to help you run your company. For

example, what I believe will happen in

the future is that even before you build

a website, you're going to build that

agent [music] that's going to help you

build a company. Most of the world still

thinks about agents as something you

prompt. Can we sort of automate even the

prompting such that the agent can be

doing useful work for me while I'm not

in the computer? Today I'm having a

conversation with GMO Roush, the CEO of

a multi-billion dollar company, Versell.

And today we're talking about agents,

specifically how companies are [music]

using agents within their business. In

this video, we talk about Verscell's

internal agent that almost 1,000 people

use within the company. We also talk

about whether companies need one god

agent or a team of many agents. We also

talk about the challenges of setting up

agents right now and how to get started

building agents that actually improve

your business workflows. We also talk

about open- source models like Kimmy K3

and a lot more. My goal with this

conversation is to answer [music] the

following question. How do we as

business operators, employees, and

individuals use AI agents to [music] be

more productive? And if you like videos

like these, please consider hitting that

like button and subscribing to this

podcast. It helps me out a ton. Let's

dive in.

GMO, thank you so much for joining me on

this on this episode of Agent Native.

>> It's great to be here.

>> My first question to you is, you know,

obviously we have all these models

coming out, right? You we have Kimmy

models from China, models built in the

US, Claude, Fable, now Claude, Opus 5.

Um, we have all these different

platforms people can use. And my

audience are most people are business

operators. They work in a big company.

They want to use agents in their

business to become more efficient and to

become like a better team. Where are

companies at in terms of implementing AI

agents in their business?

>> Yeah. When I think about we can call it

the agentic revolution. Um just like any

new platform that has hit the internet

or the software landscape, you think

about the killer apps, right? when the

personal computer came out, you know,

what were the killer apps? The word

processor, uh, you know, um, uh, for

some of us playing video games on our

personal computers and things like that.

Then mobile came along, right? And, um,

I think the killer app of mobile in many

ways was um, you know, not only

shrinking interfaces from things that we

used to use and putting them in a

smaller screen, but enabling entire new

use cases.

And I think with agents we see a similar

thing. So number one clearly one of the

killer apps of agents is uh building

software

and building software or you know what

you could call coding agents happens to

be a core capability of solving a number

of knowledge worker tasks because when

you think about okay I'm I'm preparing a

presentation for somebody

you occasionally will say well we have

to do some data science over here in

order to then you know get a report or

get some data back and put it into a

slide or you'll say I'll automate a

bunch of different steps and summarize

some documents and then I'll put some

other information into a slide and and

so I think clearly one of the

foundational parts of this uh new period

of time where we do a lot of our work

increasingly with agents is coding as a

capability and I think that's this has

transformed everyone's jobs right you

can think of it as a number of sort of

um levels of expertise I guess when it

comes to coding so there are people like

myself that can do agentic engineering

meaning you know I've been programming

for 20 years and now if I sit down and

and face a really hard engineering task

I will use a coding agent to enhance my

engineering then there's this new

emergence of what you would call vibe

coding right which is everybody building

a prototype of software or even a full

stack application depending on sort of

where your ambitions are and maybe even

how ambitious the application itself is

and so you have products like Vzero

and uh lovable and things like this that

are making it more um I guess they're

democratizing building software or even

building uh the the creative act or

enhancing the creative act of coming up

with new software.

I also think agents are uh one of the

killer apps is what I would call the run

your company better agent or um the um

knowledge base plus data analysis plus

um uh project management agent. the the

sort of brain agent that uh sits

alongside of you and disseminates

knowledge, business intelligence, even

day-to-day tasks like you know who

should I talk to within the company that

is an expert in a certain task like

navigating the org chart, navigating the

what is to many overwhelming amounts of

information that reside in the internal

systems uh of a

sort of think of this as like making the

company's backend more efficient. And as

I mentioned, I think coding is this

omniresent capability. So to give you a

concrete example from within Verscell,

what we noticed pretty quickly is that

um anybody that's helping a customer,

anybody that's trying to close a sale,

anybody that's even building new

software needs to needs to ask questions

about, you know, what are our customers

doing? When did they first reach out?

How much um uh time do we spend with

them? How much do they use our platform?

How many SQS of our of Verscell does

this customer use? And so this internal

brain agent has sort of emerged as uh I

think one of the killer apps of AI. And

maybe for a lot of people this still

seems foreign like what are you talking

about? There's an agent that can run my

company. Uh so excited to make that more

of a thing.

>> It all sounds like amazing in theory,

right? Like the this brain agent that

everyone at a company can talk to. It

kind of understands kind of the SOPs and

the rules of the company, the best

practices, that type of thing. And I've

been trying to implement this, you know,

I have a nineperson marketing team now

that like helps me create content on my

channels, on other channels. And my

question to you is like, you know, for

me, when I use AI personally, I'm inside

codeex. That's just the tool that I've

been using because I think it's good for

knowledge work because I can ask it to

create basically any type of document or

something and it'll kind of open up in

the side window. But what I can't figure

out personally is like how do I enable

this for a team? You know, if I were to

onboard someone new and I want them to

have access to my skills and but also

like a lot of my skills involve my

personal connections like my personal

email. So they can't actually get access

to that skill because there's all these

like permissions that I need to keep

separate, but then at oftent times I

want them to be able to use the same

skills that I can. And so I'm wondering

like at Verscell like are you guys kind

of trying to create this internally and

like how do you get across these

barriers and like what is the actual

interface of using agents within a team?

Yeah, even if you have a team of 10

people or a team of hundreds of people

like Verscell, I think the way that I

think about tools like Codex is that or

CHBT is they give you a taste of what AI

can do. But your job, the new job of

someone that runs a company is to

actually enable their workforce with

agents and to work on the agent. I think

the future of what you would consider to

be your intellectual property at the

company or your edge against competitors

is the ability to create, tune, optimize

and disseminate these agents internally

and and and you know while you can have

this sort of aha moment when you use

something like Chad GBD

uh maybe to give you an example of our

internal agent is called V. So anyone

within Versell can go into our Slack

workspace and say at V and sort of

navigate their day-to-day whether it's

you you give a great example. So if I

need to create new content for example

our marketing team needs to help u

promote a new product that we worked on

or communicate a product change or write

an engineering blog post in in

collaboration with an engineer that

worked on a certain capability. All of

this goes through this V agent and this

V agent has a number of skills that we

continuously sort of update and improve.

It has sub aents. It has sort of imagine

the ability to create like a virtual uh

employee team. So there is the content

agent that is really good at writing

marketing materials. There is the data

an analysis agent. Um it we we

internally call this D0ero but it's one

of the it sort of think of it as like

the the nexus of intelligence within our

company like anytime we need to get

information about how a customer is

doing or um you know how they could use

more versel or things like this we have

this sort of DZero agent that is

connected to our data warehouse um and

so the experience of using an agent

actually ends up being extremely user

friendly why because all you need to do

is you join Verscell, you join our chat

workspace and now you sort of have this

omniresent intelligence that can help

you. And now you might, you know, you

might go to V and say, "Hey, can you

change um uh some information on the

website?" And so V can still sort of

coordinate with other agents. It could

it could delegate a a task to codeex if

it wanted to. uh if it can create a

prototype with v0ero it can query versel

to get information about our production

systems but I think what's um what's key

is enabling every company in the world

to sort of deploy this brain and this

intelligence and continue to sort of

optimize it over time

>> I have a lot of questions based on this

my first one is do you have like a team

that manages V like that where okay you

have a team what what does that team

>> look like how big is it and like what do

they do on a day-to-day basis?

>> So maybe to back up I wanted to share a

little bit about our product development

philosophy at Verscell. Um when we have

a vision of the future uh that can be

informed by you know pains that our

customers have or things that we notice

internally could be better we try to

solve that problem ourselves first. So

this idea of let's have an agent that

can help with every aspect of our job

sort of emerged pretty obviously like

you mentioned like anyone that uses

chachd notices oh it can reason but

chachd doesn't have access to my

internal knowledge base and customer

records and the set of best practices of

how we build software etc and so the

inspiration was anytime you talk to

somebody

could there have been an agentic

intelligence layer that could have

gotten you that information sooner. So

that was sort of like the inkling, the

inspiration for it. Next thing is how do

we build this? And so Versell has built

a number of agentic infrastructure

services and tools, right? So we built

the AI SDK that helps developers talk to

any model in the world. uh we built um

uh AI gateway which helps you get tokens

from any model in the world at the end

of the day you know what we realize is

that okay if there's an agent like V I

don't want it to necessarily be clawed

or codeex or open weight at the end of

the day the customer doesn't matter and

ideally we autonomously choose the best

model for each task so we almost thought

of V as a superset of all agents in the

world um and so we designated a few

folks to sort of like try it out and

build this conversational experience.

First, it started out as a support

assistant and that alone was extremely

useful. Why? because we are hiring new

people and also in Slack we talk to a

lot of our customers and so anytime that

you have a question about how Verscell

works, we wanted to have an at Verscell

functionality that could know anything

about Versel and that itself was super

super super helpful because it became

sort of like this easy way of giving

support to our customers. But the

difference between an AI assistant and

an agent is that an agent can do things

for you. And so we started thinking in

terms of skills and in terms of jobs to

be done. So this uh we gave it a name.

So V for our internal purposes. And so

we wanted to have a clear distinction

between the customerf facing agent the

agent we give users of versell which is

adversel and the agent that runs our

company. So V is sort of the shortand

for this. So we created the V team. The

other thing we realized in this process,

and maybe this goes at the heart of your

question, is it's actually pretty hard

to assemble all of the tools, all of the

frameworks, and all of the

infrastructure to make something like

this happen and to improve it over time.

And so that gave uh inspiration for us

to we built V and then we shared the

framework that we used to build it back

to the world. We call this EVE. You

might sound like we're super creative

with our names. V, Eve, Verscell, but

Eve is sort of the, you know, uh, Nex.js

or React, what they did to the web. They

made it really easy to build websites

and web applications. The thing that I

think every, uh, knowledge worker, every

individual, every entrepreneur will want

in the future is to have an agent that

they can call their own. Uh, and this

is, uh, what we're helping people enable

with with Eve.

>> Gotcha. Yeah. I think, you know, this is

something I've spent a lot of time

thinking about, like how do you give the

normal person the access to not only

just have an agent that has a bunch of

context, but to also kind of like

customize it. And I think although it

feels like now that OpenClaw was kind of

a fad, you know, you know, if you look

at the Google trends, it's like gone way

down. I do think it unlocked kind of a

magic moment or there's a reason it went

viral in the first place. It wasn't

because there was some secret paid

promos by OpenClaw. I think there was a

genuine um desire for people to put an

agent on a computer and let it do things

for you.

>> I had a lot of epiphies uh from Open

Claw that informed the development of

Eve. I think you're absolutely spot on.

One of those things is that

OpenClaw showed how just how much a

coding agent can do. back to my uh

initial point like what is open claw

fundamentally it's the raw intelligence

of the model plus every tool at its

disposal right like

>> a full full access yeah

>> it can write code it can run it and it

can have access to everything and that's

magic

>> to the point where it could do things

accidentally and like I think that's I

remember listening to Peter who created

OpenClaw he said something like that he

like asked for something and then it

like gave it found an API key on his

computer and it did something that he

didn't even ask for. And I think that

was kind of the magic moment. You know,

they added like the heartbeat which was

this thing that kind of like initiated

it.

>> Another really important thing about uh

open claw which is soul.md.

So when you when you create an open claw

or when you use open claw you're not

just taking the offtheshelf agent that

somebody else built. Clearly Claude for

example, it's a great agent, but Claude

is anthropic agent. It has its own set

of principles and and sure they will

they give you ways to customize it and

whatnot, but it's not truly yours. It

doesn't have a a soul of its own, right?

And so I think that was another really

big unlock, which is what is the soulm

file? It's just it's just literally

markdown text that defines the genesis

of that model. So when you create an

agent with Eve, we we basically learn

from that and and basically an EVE agent

at its most basic is a folder with an

instructions.mmd

file in it. So it's like the soul of

your agent that's going to help you run

your company, for example. And then the

other thing that we learned is it's

awesome that it can run code, write

code. It has a computer for it, right?

Like the the whole like Mac mini uh

thing was actually quite meaningful,

right? Like people realized, okay, this

Asian can do anything under the sun, but

it's dangerous and it needs a space. He

needs his own like thing and give the

agent some space, right? like and so

people bought Mac minis and and and that

basically giving an agent a computer

massively improves its performance, its

reasoning performance and its ability to

deliver outcomes for you. And so what's

really fascinating is it's not too

unlike hiring a knowledge worker. What

is the first thing a modern firms does

when they hire a human? Here's your

computer. it gave us a MacBook. It has a

bunch of programs installed. It's logged

into all of your key systems and so we

wanted to give you that as well uh for

your own agents that you build. But we

wanted to build a secure and efficient

environment for it to run. And so the

security part is that you define the

tools, the human in the loop approvals

and the data access controls for

anything that the agent can do. And the

other aspect of it is it doesn't assume

that the agent is always running in a

computer which is actually kind of uh

counterintuitive. I just said an agent

gets better if it has a computer but not

every agent is a computer is running

24/7.

And so in in in our in our lingo of the

versel in in cloud world we call this

serverless. The idea is that if the

agent is not doing anything it can go to

sleep. Maybe another metaphor is imagine

a Mac Mini that hibernates when the

agent doesn't have anything to do so

that he doesn't use electricity. And so

because we at Verscell we run you know

billions of deployments we needed a

mechanism such that agents can be very

very very efficiently operated and run.

Um and so that's another sort of

ingredient that we learned from the the

open clause of the world. Okay, if we're

going to run these things at massive

scale and we need to run them securely,

how can we create infrastructure that

enables that?

>> Gotcha. That makes sense. Yeah. I think

I think all of the the big AI labs

who've re who are like kind of releasing

a product that is an agent on a computer

is trying to shake it into people.

They're like this is a computer. It has

a computer and it's not easy to

communicate to the average people. you

know, OpenAI is struggling with that

right now where they're like literally

tweeting. They're like GPT work is an

agent with a computer and it's not easy

to convey that as you interact with a

chatbot, you know, like it's like what

does that even mean, you know, and I'm

even I'm even struggling with it, you

know, and I think, you know, and I think

you can kind of divide whether you look

at Anthropic or OpenAI, like you can

kind of divide their products into like

how much computer access they have. It's

like the chatbot doesn't have any

computer. GPT work has some computer it

doesn't it can't run terminal commands

but then codecs can run terminal

commands but you can only get it on your

computer because they don't have and so

I think that is actually the computer

aspect of agents I think is one of the

parts that makes it really confusing at

this stage right now

>> I agree and and my goal with uh the

agents that we build in in V is that you

know whether you're an intern that just

joined Verscell or you're a super

experienced engineer or you're somewhere

in between I don't think whether

I I think that's sort of the

implementation detail that the agent

builder needs to know about. You need to

what I want for the future is that

someone that's building an agent can

very carefully define governance data

access control in the security model

right for because agents are interacting

with customer data. So you can't just be

like I don't know man it runs a computer

and it has access to like all of the

databases of everything. you have to be

really really really thoughtful about

it. That's literally our new job, right?

Um and uh but whether it runs one or it

runs a million computers completely

inconsequential to the end user. In

fact, you know, you can think of this

agents as being orchestrators. In fact,

when when someone goes to our Slack and

says at V, they're really talking to the

orchestrating agent, the one that could

delegate a task to a million computers,

to one computer, maybe even no computer.

You know, we have customers of Versel

that have built agents that have so much

usage that they figured out ways to make

the computer smaller and smaller and

smaller just for the sake of cost

efficiency. And so I I think the my hope

for the future is that the very

technical people can sort of know like

oh this particular conversation with

this agent resulted in all of this usage

of computers and whatnot. But for the

most part it's all about getting high

quality outcomes, high quality analysis,

high quality uh you know accurate

information. Uh performance is becoming

more and more of a the dog tug of town,

right? like people really care for fast

models and fast execution. So that's

another aspect of like how do you get

your agent to be delightful.

>> Okay. So let let's say for a sec I

wanted to create a V agent for my team.

>> Yeah. My first question with this and

and this is something that I've realized

talking to a lot of business owners who

are like kind of know about agents and

they're they're trying they they're

they're confused on whether you want one

agent that's like a god agent that knows

everything or if you want a team of

agents that sort of like share a

knowledge base because the conversation

that I'm having with a lot of business

owners is like well the marketing team

has access to these things and the

finance team like I don't even I don't

even want the marketing team to know

about certain finance documents.

>> Totally.

>> And so like that's my question is like

how if I were to be creating my own V

agent for my company, how do I think

about that? You know, God agent or

>> Yeah.

>> So first of all,

I'm a user experience guy. You know, I

started Versell because I was frustrated

with how slow creating software was and

how slow the average website and web

application experience was. So I always

try to work backwards on the user

experience.

The ideal user experience with an agent

is the Star Trek computer or the Iron

Man Jarvis. It's ambient computing and I

don't need to target a specific

capability. That's why we have we're

reasoning with agents to begin with. is

like there's probably like hundreds if

not thousands of internal tools that

people at Versell have built that I

don't even know they exist frankly

there's just too much right and so when

you have this intelligent agents they

can act as routers

v our internal EVE agent is a router so

if you ask it about versel knowledge it

goes to the you know capability that we

have for looking up our documentation

our knowledge base etc ETA if you ask

about if you need to help a customer

with a support case, it has a support

agent within it that has access to our

support ticket infrastructure.

Okay, so that answers sort of my

perspective is that it's more on the god

model. And maybe to give you a metaphor

because I really think that what we're

doing here is we're redefining

how companies of the future will work.

When you join a a corporation, they

might give you a corporate phone and

that corporate phone is already

preconfigured with your identity and

with a set of applications.

You have the application for the I don't

know internal chat. You have the

application for this and that. So I

think the internal agent that helps you

run the company is not not unlike that

is the job of the new sort of IT

department is to say what are the

capabilities that we're bundling into

this agent and also crucially how do we

manage identity and who gets to access

what information which is also extremely

businesses specific. It depends on how

regulated your business is. If you're a

small startup, I can believe that you

know your nine person team, they all

have pretty equal access to most of the

information of the company. maybe two

have information to the financials or or

maybe the distinction I remember when I

started forcell was like some of us had

you know read write admin [laughter]

uh and but I think most of the first 10

personel team had read access to almost

everything right um and so the job of

the person that works on this

foundational agent is to determine uh

the the access control the tools uh um

the guard rails uh the the audit trails

and and and like I said, this is

actually pretty hard work to do. Uh and

and and why we wanted to create a

framework that made that the fundamental

job because you know wiring up the

model, wiring up the infrastructure and

all of that we can sort of customers can

offload to us.

>> That makes sense. And so I yeah I guess

the agent would also be able to see

where the message is coming from. So

it's like okay if it gets sent in this

channel it'll delegate um to this sub

agent or access these certain files.

That makes a lot of sense.

>> Totally. I just get I guess cuz what

you're telling me is like so appealing.

Um like being able to create your team's

agent and I don't think anyone's cracked

the interface for this yet. Um and I

know you guys are building a framework.

You deal with a lot of developers. I

guess what I'm dying for is like a way

some sort of interface to understand it

because even the technical people like

I've even showed technical people Eve

where like I'm like can you help me make

sense of this and I think it's still at

a stage where it's not super easy to

like fully understand and so I guess

yeah I just wish there was like an

interface where I could go in and like

set these rules. Maybe I'm talking to an

AI and it's configuring it. I I guess

>> the way that most of these agents are

built is that you're talking to an AI

that is helping you maintain your EVE

project. You'll hear me use the word

file system or folder a lot. I find that

it's it makes the world really easy to

understand if you think it if you think

about it as a hierarchy of files and

folders. So the way that a ne agent

works is that you start with that

instructions file that says you are the

agent that helps run Riley's business.

You can even have some context about who

you are like uh our business isn't you

know we disseminate information about AI

and uh our values are transparency we're

not opinionated and we love shipping

things like something like that right um

okay but that agent still knows nothing

it's a tabula rasa it just has the raw

intelligence that comes from the model

and it has a a basic set of instructions

how can it do something useful for you

well you talked about okay let's help

the marketing team create content and

let's say that one of the things that

you really care about is posting uh on

your blog okay so in an EVE agent the

first thing you do is you can create a

tools folder and you can now start

exposing tools to the agent and so you

can say let's say that your blog is

running WordPress or some system like

that now I can say to the agent now you

have a tool to read didn't write blog

posts to WordPress.

Okay, great. You you created that file

WordPress uh.ts on on that folder and

then you ship your agent. You you use

the word channel also very important

that this agent needs to communicate to

your team in some channel. So Eve

supports every channel under the sun. It

can be WhatsApp, it can be Telegram, it

can be Slack, it can be Microsoft

>> iMessage,

>> it can be iMessage. Yes.

>> Amazing. And so the next question is

okay I created the agent I gave it this

sort of soul I gave it access to

WordPress. Now you hire an intern.

[laughter]

Can the intern ship any blog post that

it authors together with your internal

agent to prod? You probably don't want

that. And so this is the job of like you

at some point maybe Riley you were

working on your EVE agent or someone in

your team you designate as sort of the

agent administrator. You're gonna say

okay

if the person lives within cert a

certain part of the organization we let

them write directly to WordPress.

Another approach that I've seen people

take is that when they interact with the

intern over Slack or over Telegram or

whatever you have to authenticate with

WordPress. So you delegate to an

existing permission system that you

already have. So the EVE agent ends up

being sort of the facilitator of the

transaction but it doesn't have direct

access to WordPress itself. Uh it it it

will help you sort of draft up the

content. So this is just an idea that we

cooked up in this conversation. But

imagine that every day you start

realizing hm that's really powerful. I

just unblocked my entire team to be able

to draft up blog posts that go directly

to WordPress. But next time tomorrow you

hear an escalation and you hear, "Hey at

Riley, I just saw your blog post. It's I

read your most recent blog post. It

reads like complete claw slop. What do

you do?" And you go you go into your

team and say, "Guys, what do we just

do?" We became really productive and we

started shipping a lot of slop. You know

what you do next? You work on the

content writing skill of your EVE agent.

And so this is the meta work that we

will all be doing in the future. We're

not working on the blog post itself. You

did not go to the intern scold at him

for like hey what what do you do? You

shipped a bunch of slop. You're putting

that intelligence into the agent in the

form of skills in the form of tools. Uh

and uh of course over time you can get

more sophisticated and and uh it's not

just about blog like how can we infuse

the content writing capability with uh

what people are saying on X about your

business.

>> I was going to say that like a lot of

the skills that I find very useful for

content ends up just being like

grounding in some relevant source. And

so you can put I call them like plugins

like where like there's one called

scrape creators. It's some API that I

found that scrapes content from certain

channels. And so like before it ever

writes anything or before it ever

idiates an idea for YouTube or or a

packaging concept like a title and

thumbnail, it'll go and like look on

social media and find those things.

>> Totally.

>> Yeah. And that's another thing like okay

so if I'm creating a V agent um yeah I'd

I'd want to add certain APIs and you can

add I would yeah call you can call them

plugins or like how do we distinguish

between plugins and skills? Can you add

plugins to skills or how or are they all

just skills?

>> Text.

>> So going back to you you got that

escalation that says Riley, you just

shipped you're shipping a lot of blog

posts but they all they have too many m

dashes.

>> And so this is what's beautiful about

that idea of it's just a folder. You go

into your EVE agent and in the folder

skills you say contentwriting.mmd

and you say this is how we write. This

is what I like. This is what I don't

like. Um, you also talked about I I

think that the future of work will be

the agent becoming a lot more proactive

as well. So, Eve can have a schedule.

For example, every day at night, it

reads social media.

It parses keywords. It gets replies from

your posts. And from that, it can do

something. It can draft up new content.

It can even give you a report inside of

Slack. And this we actually have found

to be extremely helpful at Versell.

The idea that our agents proactively

give us information. So every Monday I

have a I have my internal agent give me

a download of what's happening across

every product area. What are the key

metrics that I care about? So you can

have the agent be doing thinking in the

background on your behalf. And I think

it's not just about I think most of the

world still thinks about agents as

something you prompt

but I think there's a lot of alpha in

thinking about can we sort of automate

even the prompting such that the agent

can be doing useful work for me while

I'm not in the computer.

>> I think one of the limitations for me

and I've been able I I have a lot of

automations set up that trigger an agent

to do certain task and it is really

useful. One thing that I'm struggling

figuring out how to set up, especially

at my at the team level, is to get

outside things to trigger the agent, you

know. Um, and there's many ways I think

you could do this, but um, yeah, like do

you guys have any of of that set up?

Like if some event happens totally,

>> it automatically Okay. Yeah. Can you

talk about that?

>> So,

I think events that originate in systems

like Stripe, like there is a refund

request, we make it really easy to

connect all those systems. In fact, when

we sat down and we thought about what

makes it really hard to build an agent,

it's actually not the proof of concept

part because anybody in the world can

sit down open cloud coder codeex and

build an agent in the sense that like

when you're prompting it, you realize

what it becomes capable of. What we

talked about with open claw like the raw

intelligence is already there. What's

hard is securely connecting it to your

systems.

So we built a capability on Verscell

called Verscell connect that gives your

agents access to 100 plus systems but it

doesn't just give them full readr

everything access right away. It gives

you the developer the control and that

might mean that you subscribe to an

event and then you send it to your

agent. You can say, "Hey, every time

Stripe has a failed payment, let the

agent know.

Every time we get an email, let the

agent know." And so you start thinking

about the world in terms of events. In

fact, I mentioned that a lot of our

agent interactions are happening on in

Slack. Slack is just another event is

someone said something and the agent

that gets fed into the agent's brain.

And so any any connector of this sort of

repertoire of connectors can originate

some kind of behavior in the agent.

>> Gotcha. That makes sense. Yeah, that's

just something we've been thinking about

a lot. Um because you're right,

everything is just an event. It's just

things happening and then when something

happens, if an agent can take care of

it, they it should take care of it. And

I think I'm like I've automated none of

that in terms of what I could possibly

automate, which is really

>> mental a mental model. So I mentioned

that the the thing that I'm excited

about with Eve is that when when I

started Versel the most

imminent thing that I needed to build

was a website like it felt like how do I

put my fingerprint in the world? What is

one of the earliest things that you do

when you create a company? You register

in Delaware if you're in the United

States or even internationally you

incorporate. You choose a name and so

you register the domain name and you

ship a website. even a website says like

hey we're in business or welcome to the

minimum viable sort of identity of your

company on the internet. What I believe

will happen in the future is that even

before you build a website you're going

to build that agent that's going to help

you build a company. The it's going to

be your factory. It's going to be the

the trusted partner and advisor in

everything you do that's constantly

learning about the trajectory of your

business.

And so it's extremely critical that as

you sort of evolve your business, this

agent gets access to more of these data

streams of knowledge and information.

And everything really is an event in

this world. Um, another important factor

there is self-improvement.

So when whenever you start a company,

you're constantly learning. You're

you're teaching your employees. you're

helping them, you know, learn from

mistakes, learn from incidents, learn

from customer feedback, etc. It's going

to be very important that your agent

over time can improve.

And so with Eve, we thought about, okay,

if there is a baseline of information

that your agent has, how do you evaluate

the agent? Can you write tests or can

you give it exams so that you actually

know that you're making forward progress

as you as this agent sort of gets uh um

more sophisticated and more capable over

time.

>> Um and so

>> think of this as sort of uh even more

fundamental than the dot of your of your

of your company.

>> Yeah. And do you guys like put evals

into Slack? Are there any ways to like

evaluate whether an agent does well or

doesn't do well? Like could you res like

based on someone like could a employee

who got a response from V could they say

like oh this wasn't a good response and

okay they can do that.

>> Yeah. So the every response that we give

on Slack has a and by the way maybe to

also give kudos to the Slack team like

Slack is kind of becoming like an agent

operating system of sorts right because

like it used to be for messages between

humans now it's humans and agents and so

they have built UI

that is just really easy for the

developer to add right so like the

thumbs up thumbs down thing super easy

to add and so every EVE agent we create

for example at night we can have a job

that aggregates all of the negative

feedback

>> and proposes the next stage of

self-improvement. We can say hey

>> we got five thumbs down on these

answers. What are the things that

the agent itself can even propose

how to improve itself? Oh, I missed

this. Oh, this person critiqued this

part of my response or they said I

hallucinated or whatnot. I do think it's

very important that humans are still

involved in that loop. But I think

increasingly more and more of the job of

get the agent getting better is also

being done by the framework. So the

framework itself comes with evalu um um

you know are basically test cases right

when you build a web application or a

website you write unit tests and you

make sure that the logic is sound when

you create an EVE agent you write evals

also to assertain that the logic is

sound but that the information it

gathers is is sound and and u uh it's

accurate. There can be evals about

personality. At some point we were

hearing from people that our internal

company agent was too verbose.

It was speaking too much. Uh and so you

we kind of basically gave it a better

personality and and you can create evals

around that as well.

>> So do you do you view this like in the

near future like over the next few

years? Do you think it's just going to

be mostly technical people building

agents for companies or do you view this

as something that whether you can code

or not you you'll be able to create

agents for your team? So because

building software is being so

democratized

um think of it as like again let's go

back to that idea of like I'm starting a

company and like the first website I

built is sort of like I could have used

any service on the planet drag and drop

uh give me a free website with my domain

name like anything like that. And so I

think

>> that first

building block of your agent everybody's

going to be able to to create. I think

over time, I mean, the whole business

runs on this. Hundreds of millions of

dollars of revenue are dependent on the

well-being of this agent because our

sales reps depend on it, our support

team depends on it, I depend on it. And

so you this is a very important piece of

software. And so I think it's a

combination of everyone can contribute

to the agent information skills critique

feedback

and then there is engineers that are

working on the core system loop the

access to data the governance security

all of those pieces um that I think need

to be more technically minded but I

don't think that the codew writing part

is as important these

It's I think I would describe it as

people that really understand data flows

uh threat models and architecture of

systems design so that they can like

carefully think about the the again the

operational excellence of the agent and

the security model of the agent.

>> Very interesting. Yeah. Um because yeah,

I think there's a lot of people,

business owners, not all of them are

technical, who are reaching out and

they're trying to create agents. And so

I'm just trying to like leave people

with like a te a tangible thing that

they can do like a point to a place

where they can go to kind of build their

first agent or build their V. Um because

I think with what I've realized with

these agent tools, all of them is I we

we can have conversations about it. We

can talk about it. I can learn. I can

use AI to like learn about it. But

nothing hits like doing it. And I think

that's kind like like once you do it,

then you're like, "Oh, I can do that.

That means I can do this thing, this

thing, and this thing." And like kind of

your world opens up as you do even the

most trivial things. And so, yeah, I

>> recommendation there would be, you know,

what I've seen give people an aha moment

is create an EVE agent. Go to eve.dev,

deploy your first agent, but connect it

to your favorite chat medium.

If you if your company works in Slack,

connect it to Slack. If you like

WhatsApp, connect it to WhatsApp. and

pick one boring or

you know kind of pick a toil task of

your business that has a system to it

but it's not you know it's something

that if you could automate it away you'd

absolutely automate it away and write

down the scale of that task. Uh, it

could be, for example, something we do a

lot at Verscell is we put a lot of work

into drafting up our product change log.

When you go to versel.com, it says

change log.

Every piece of content there narrates

the storytelling or evolution of our

product.

And in many ways, that change log is a

grounding for my engineering team. How

do I know if an engineer is being

productive or not? or whatever like well

one of the things that I do is I I

measure it by have you shipped something

that we can communicate to customers is

an improvement to our platform. So one

change log that's about to go out maybe

by the time you watch this it's already

gone out is we we improved the end toend

deployment process of an application or

agent to versel by 7 seconds.

seven seconds we've shaved off uh over a

lot of infrastructure work. So when you

go to verschange you're gonna find that

we improved our product and we shaved

down 7 seconds. So it used to actually

take a lot of work for an engineer that

is in the depths of infrastructure

to collaborate with a marketing team and

get that thing out into the world.

Because we have an agent internally,

we've cut down that process into one

Slack thread that the engineer creates.

The agent refineses what they're telling

me because, you know, engineers are

sometimes so in the weeds that they

struggle to communicate things in a way

that is I call it contextf free. you

know, maybe they start talking about,

you know, computer science or like I'm

just, hey, can we boil it down to the

business benefit? Simple, seven seconds.

Uh, it's enabled for every customer,

it's free. So, that's kind of like a

little formula that I have. People want

to know what's the benefit, how much

does it cost, and what do I do to get

it? Mhm.

>> And so that formula that I developed

over many years of product marketing

skill, I put into that Eve agent. And so

for the listeners, think about something

like that. Maybe it's like quote unquote

a secret sauce of something you do

really well, but takes a lot of time and

you want to do more of it. And so start

with that skill, connect you to a

communication channel, ship it on for

sale.

>> Gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I

think um to kind of I know we're we're

running up on our time here, but um what

are you most excited about um in ter

could be a model, it could be computer

use or some browser use. Like what

unlock do you think we're going to get

in the next like three to six months

that will make using agents way more fun

or way more effective?

>> Very simple. Um cost of intelligence

continuing to go down. M

>> more intelligence to for more people,

more variety of models. One of the great

things about building with Eve and

building in Verscell generally is that

we give you access to every provider of

models and every model in the world.

>> It's model agnostic.

>> Yeah,

>> totally model agnostic, right? Um and

that plays into your benefit because you

retain ownership of your data, of your

skills. You get to choose models and you

get to benefit from the competition.

There is some news that's going to go

out tomorrow about models getting

dramatically cheaper.

>> Literally tomorrow.

>> Tomorrow

and if you were building in this way,

you're going to benefit. Um so the other

one is fast models are going to get way

faster. I think we're going to start

seeing what happened with the personal

computing and mobile computing

revolution, which is that, you know, we

got the iPhone. If you were if you could

travel back in time and or even pulled

out the first iPhone out of a drawer,

you'd be astonished at how slow it was,

the refresh rate. Like you would open an

app, it would do nothing for several

seconds and then slowly at maybe 10

frames per second, the application would

show up in front of your eyes,

>> right?

>> That's where AI is at today.

>> Yeah. I think for most knowledge tasks,

like I just want faster, you know? I my

biggest problem isn't like, oh, I wish

this was better. It's just like, why did

I have to wait 14 minutes for this, you

know? And like if it was 10 times

faster, it it would be insane. And I

feel like we're pro like

>> how long do you think it'll take for the

models at like a 5.6 level like um so

like soul level

>> days if not week. Well, I mean maybe

days is the most like optimistic. Uh I I

think we're literally like weeks single

digit months away.

>> Uh one of the data points that I can

share is on the open weight and this is

why I'm excited about open weight

models. The competition between the

inference providers around open weight

is so extreme

that GLM dropped. We added it versel AI

gateway. It's an incredibly good model

GLM 5.2.

Within days, we had a fast variant that

was four times faster.

There we have more providers coming

online for GLM that keep raising the bar

of token per second performance.

>> GLM 5.2 too fast is astonishingly fast

and it's only getting faster.

>> What did you think of

>> Kimmy K3 is gonna happen to Kimmy? I

think we're still in the early innings

of that.

>> What did you think of the model like in

general? Like do you think it's you

think it's really good? You think it's

up to par with like an Opus 48?

>> I think GLM 5.2 was already in that

category. I think Kimmy raises the bar.

I think Kimmy can do things that perhaps

only you know uh fable class models

could do. Not quite in all in all of its

dimensions but for example when we

evaluated it for cyber security it

outperformed OPUS 4.8 8 clearly um and

it was almost at uh you know soul level.

Soul's still at the frontier.

But again, this is the beautiful thing

about having choice is that depending on

what you're doing, you're going to

choose different price performance

ratios. Grock for fast and highly

accurate. Like if I have to choose today

a model that's going to be my workhorse

model, that would be like the default.

If I have an agent that is my Slack and

needs to do a wide variety of tasks and

has to do it quickly because there's

another person waiting on the other

side, I would absolutely go with Grog

4.5 or GLM in terms of like price

performance.

>> Um, now I mentioned proactivity.

What about for example at night

finding opportunities in our business

uh crunching data and extracting novel

insights for the executive team? Well,

those things I can throw more reasoning

power and it can take more time.

>> I might even want to take throw a

consortium of models at it. Why not have

Kimmy and Saul and Grock come up with

three points of view and then give you

the summary? And this is why I find it

so interesting, right? Like we're still

in the early innings of understanding

what are the principles of design and

user interface engineering. But for

agents,

>> yeah,

>> if I'm talking to an agent

interactively, I want fast.

If the agent is doing an asynchronous

job, I want accuracy.

>> Yeah. You don't care if it takes all

night. Like it it doesn't make a

difference if you're Yeah. Yeah. That's

true. I I didn't think about that. Um

>> we're about to launch a capability in AI

gateway which is um you as a developer

>> or even your agent can say please do

inference please like get me tokens but

in batch and I don't care how long

you're going to take. like you

communicate. It's a little bit like

putting in a buy order

>> and you're not worried when it gets

fulfilled, right? Like you're just

willing to wait

>> and then anyone in this market can

fulfill your order.

>> Almost like a spot market for

intelligence, right?

>> That makes sense. Yeah.

And uh and this is extremely exciting

because you might say hey like come up

with a proof or disproof the Jacobian

conjecture

for two dimensions and I don't really

care when but spend this many tokens uh

and someone at some point is going to

say hey I already paid for the GPU it's

connected to the internet yeah

>> no one is using it let's throw some

capacity it's a little bit like uh SETI

at home uh for those who remember, rent

out your spare comput capacity, solve

hard problems.

>> Yeah, because if you get it next week,

it doesn't matter. You know, you're

still solving a really crazy thing.

Anyway, I really appreciate uh you

joining. Um I think you guys are going

to do great. I one thing I didn't

realize is how much business owners

don't want to get locked in to a certain

provider. I mean, you know, like Claude

Tag is their kind of I don't want to say

it's their version of V, but it's like

kind of an agent you can add to Slack.

and so many people are resistant to it

because they don't want to get locked

into only Claude's models. Um, so I

think that is something that you guys

will have going for you. That's really

cool.

>> And it goes beyond, you know, the the

model. I think it's not about having

Claude in your workspace. It's about

having an intelligence of your own,

>> right?

>> So there's almost like an element of

like baptizing your agents like this is

our agent. This is our company. It's,

you know, I actually liken it to the web

because the web was all about I own my

domain name. Mhm.

>> I'm the I'm the king of my own domain.

Uh and I think we're now seeing we're

living through the version of that for

the intelligence age.

>> 100%. Yeah, I agree. I thank you so much

for coming on. This was this was a lot

of fun. Let's do it sometime soon.

>> Anytime, Riley. Thank you. [music]