what nickname do you think Trump would

give to uh to us do you think you'd

Merit a nickname Carlos

maybe little Carly he would play off

like Little Marco little Carlos lazy

Lazada yeah does he have a nickname for

you Ross I don't think I have a nickname

I do have I wrote a column after he won

the Republican nomination that said like

you know what's the biggest thing you've

got wrong in the last year I thought

Trump couldn't win the Republican

nomination and he proved me wrong but I

still don't think he'll be president and

he somebody cut out the column for it

and he like scribbled on it like I'm

gonna prove you wrong again sign Donald

Trump I my my wife actually actually

framed it

[Music]

from New York Times opinion I'm Lydia

polgreen I'm Michelle Cottle I'm Ross

douthit I'm Carlos Lozada and this is

matter of opinion

[Music]

we may be 77 weeks out from the election

my God

but we are back in the presidential

election cycle

there are already half a dozen

Republican candidates who declared and

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis expected

to announce any day now what do these

candidates say about the party's hope of

winning in a post-trump world

[Music]

so before we dive in I just wanted to

sort of frame things by saying that this

last weekend did kind of feel like an

inflection point even 7700 weeks out or

whatever we are because first we just

seen Trump steamroll his way through a

CNN Town Hall which sort of brought back

fond memories of 2016 and then he and

DeSantis were both supposed to head to

Iowa for competing events and Trump

canceled his rally over threats or

supposed threats of severe weather and

then the storm didn't materialize and

DeSantis headed for the area where Trump

was supposed to appear and basically

showed him up with a kind of impromptu

Iowa rally and it actually kind of felt

like a real campaign moment rather than

the kind of virtual you know

twitter-based Shadow Boxing and it was

also I mean let's be honest one of the

first really positive headlines that

DeSantis has generated in the last

couple of months when really most of the

coverage has been about his polling sag

and Trump's return to double digit leads

and so maybe we should start there

before we launch into DeSantis which I

totally want to do you're just you're

chomping at them now you've got DeSantis

Mania I want to go back to the 77 weeks

thing right it's awesome to talk about

the Republican feel for 2024 I want to

know what everyone thinks about that but

at this stage is it really possible to

have any meaningful sense of how things

are developing in 2015 at this point

exactly Scott Walker Jeb Bush and Marco

Rubio were like the big thing at this

point in 2007 Rudy Giuliani was the man

right so I remember it well do we think

there's something unique about this race

I.E Trump that makes things clearer and

different you know 77 weeks out you know

I think what's what's unique is you have

a one-term defeated president who's

trying to come back in that one-term

defeated president is Donald Trump and

of course in 2016 you had a wide open

primary now you have a sort of semi-open

primary right because there is this kind

of quasi-incumbent who's actually not an

a current incumbent which is a very

unusual Dynamic it's a very unusual

situation in part because Donald Trump

turned the Republican Party into a cult

of personality and it's hard to kind of

move on from that and that's what you're

seeing and I do think it's a little

early to kind of know these things go up

and down and everybody can say well it's

over DeSantis has blown his moment but

there's a lot of folks who are still

thinking about piling in there's a lot

of donors and you know even base voters

who are very Twitchy about kind of where

this is all going there is a lot of

trump fatigue Trump fatigue is real you

know we're still looking at will Mike

Pence jump in any day now there's a lot

going on and you gotta let this play out

yeah I'd love for somebody to make the

case that DeSantis hasn't peaked now one

sign is that Trump has yet to settle on

a truly winning nickname for him I don't

think meatball Ron really does it I like

putting fingers I think meatball Ron is

actually the winner I think it Taps into

latent uh mild but real anti-italian

Prejudice in a way that no I'm actually

I'm I'm only 50 kidding here I think I

think it is more effective than the

sanctimonious a word lots of people

don't even recognize it doesn't even

apply really you know Mike Pence is

sanctimonious Rhonda santis isn't but

yeah but I really I want to talk about

like who DeSantis is and what he stands

for and I'm curious I mean Carlos you

know God bless you've done a lot of

reading

um

you haven't already the courage to be

free Florida's blueprint for America's

real life I've witnessed Florida's

blueprints

have eyes to see and ears to hear I mean

so I I watched the speech that he gave

in Iowa and what's interesting is that

he has a real script because a lot of it

is verbatim from the courage to be free

Florida's blueprint for America's rival

hashtag trademark yeah

um so for better for worse you know it's

got what is it it's you know the

anti-woke anti-di anti-disney stuff

which has become kind of like standard

DeSantis you know stump speech to the

extent that he's doing stump speeches

his case against Trump specifically I

think is more interesting it's kind of

stylistic it's tactical uh it's not

super substantive it's what passes for

subtle in American politics now right so

he stresses that and he did this in the

speech and in the book that government

is not about entertaining or about

building your social media brand you

know hint hint

um says the key is to expand the base

not just appeal to current Republican

voters hint hint and to present a vision

of the future not wallow in the past IE

2020 hint hint he doesn't mention

January 6 at all in in the book but he

does say that Executives should govern

within the confines of the

Constitutional system he criticizes

elected officials who want to perpetuate

themselves in office again none of this

while mentioning Trump so he's got the

talking points down I think the case

he's making is like yeah I'm as much of

a culture Warrior as the next guy but

I'm a competent cultural well that

speaks directly to what appeals to a lot

of donors and

non-trumpy Republicans is that he is

Trump but not crazy I mean that's always

been his selling point so he is just as

conservative and just as anti-woke which

is also in these polls something that is

very big for Republican primary voters

they want somebody who's anti-woke

but he's not a lunatic and so he's not

going to wind up mired into impeachments

I mean for some people that is part of

the appeal and my question with DeSantis

has always been can you be a demagogue

if you're completely anti-charismatic

well part of the question though too

right is that yes in certain ways he is

casting himself as you know the the

competent Trump the guy who fights the

Liberals fights the woke fights the

progressives and actually wins but then

there are other ways in which so far

he's not Trump I'm stealing this from

someone on Twitter so you know apologies

to whoever said this thing

but there's a way in which he's sort of

like trying to be Ted Cruz except oh my

God not not Ted Cruz right because if

you look back at 2016 what was Ted

Cruz's strategy Ted Cruz's strategy was

to be just as sort of vehement As Trump

in going after the liberal media and

progressives and cultural liberals and

so on to win Iowa by rallying social and

religious conservatives and this is

clearly the part of the DeSantis

strategy he is somewhat to Trump's right

on abortion and that will play better in

Iowa than it will in some other states

and if you look at what DeSantis has

done in Florida he's been incredibly

legislatively successful but a lot of it

is sort of where the conservative

movement wants you to be it's school

choice it's immigration and so on but I

think that's a just a big open question

right because we watched Crews run this

play against Trump say I'm you know I'm

the truer conservative I can fight the

libs too and it didn't work one reason

it didn't work though was that the

entire Republican establishment hated

Ted Cruz and lots of establishment

Republicans in the end were like okay

binary Choice Ted Cruz Donald Trump

I gotta go with Trump and DeSantis is I

think assuming that that will not be the

case with him

one difference in the in the cruise to

Santa's thing though is that

when when Cruz was doing this it was

still premised on the notion that

eventually Trump's support would

collapse and you had to be ready waiting

to catch all those voters right

um it didn't and now we know that Trump

can win right so you can't just sort of

sit there in the holding pattern waiting

for the support to collapse thinking

that you have the kind of the proper set

of views that will allow you to scoop up

those voters so I don't know that the

crew's Playbook then makes a lot of

sense

yes I think that's right precisely

because Republican voters have now voted

for Trump twice in presidential

elections there is this bond with him

even you know through January 6 and

afterward that kind of Full Tilt never

Trump kind of line is not what you want

to do and instead you have to hope that

you can say look Trump says the election

was stolen but who was in charge you

know when the Democrats were supposedly

stealing it Trump says we should have

opened sooner but who appointed fauci

right Trump says all these people

betrayed him but who appointed them and

see if that works I don't know if it

will but I think that's the needle

thread you have to try what's

interesting both in the speech and in

the book DeSantis when he talks about

Florida's coveted response and he's

bragging about that the contrast is

always with Anthony fauci it's never

with Donald Trump right it's always

fouchism and you know the Iron Curtain

of faucism descended upon America and

Florida was you know West Berlin and all

the rest and it it's this attack on like

the faucian dystopia and never on sort

of the person who was in charge during

the first year of covid he's attacking

him by proxy right it's it's always this

kind of subtlety to it and subtlety

doesn't really play so well with primary

voters in the GOP primary voting base I

mean that what will be one of the

interesting things to see is is as the

primary heats up and you have to have

head-to-head conflict how is DeSantis

going to thread that I mean Trump has

said that he will probably skip a couple

of primary debates but he's presumably

planning to show up for some of them

kind of what does that look like the

stage could Collapse by that point there

could be so many people on it but

DeSantis won't be able to duck that

forever you know in part because as you

say you you can't just be subtle in this

political environment I mean I think the

other thing is that you know a grieved

victimhood is the most comfortable

Groove for Trump to be in when he's

appealing to his base and I think that

there's something very powerful in that

you know I am your Vengeance I am the

person who stands in for you and I think

that if you couple that in Ross you

alluded to this to his

very careful positioning on abortion I

think he has a very clear sense that

that's a vulnerability going into the

general election and that that is a

place where he has in the past and can

continue to in the future Bob and weave

and find a way through and perhaps have

a shot at you know taking back some of

the Upper Midwest if abortion is not on

the ballot then his kind of squishy

stated opinion of like we're going to

leave it to the states maybe prevents a

huge turnout from coming out in a state

like Michigan and gives him a shot at it

again that feels like an unlikely set of

events but the combination of grievance

and the ability to kind of hold multiple

contradictory views at once feels like

very powerful so this is the advantage

of being someone who's running on a

personality-based campaign as opposed to

somebody who's running on principles or

policies or ideology Trump is just all

about I'm a victim you're a victim

they're out to get us and that gives him

an awful lot of wiggle room one thing I

wanted to get your read on about Rhonda

santis is this weird tick he has he came

up in the Iowa speech he mentions it

twice in the book where

he often talks about how much money he

could have made if he had gone on to

practice law after Harvard Law School

rather than going into the Navy

and

I think of that in terms of the sort of

discussions about populism and like what

what Lane he represents

um is it because like he's saying this

Iowa speech he said I could have made

boatloads of money but I didn't you know

I chose to serve is that a contrast to

Trump being wealthy and not serving is

that him saying well I could be a rich

guy too it's connected to his very kind

of conflicted relationship with his

education he talked about his academic

pedigree in Iowa which was super weird

and he often talks about you know how he

went to Yale and Harvard but like how

much he hated it you know he both wants

the like Elite validation of Yale and

Harvard I mean and the street cred who

doesn't who hasn't taken that approach

in their professional career Carlos but

like Trump you know Trump straight up

brags about Wharton right like you know

he's made his choice right DeSantis is

trying to kind of both both be like you

know fancy School educated guy and

populist and that just doesn't it

doesn't ring true you got to pick you

got to pick who you are you find this

with a lot of the top Republicans I mean

Ted Cruz has the ivy degrees and he gets

to sit around and complain about the

elites I mean Tom Cotton a lot of these

guys try to do that and with Trump I

think what worked for him is he grew up

rich but nobody ever respected him the

elites always looked down on him and he

knew that and he carries that bitterness

with him and it is genuine it is

possibly the most genuine thing about

Trump it's just his aggrieved sourness

that nobody ever gave him what he deemed

the proper respect so if you're a

DeSantis you have to kind of figure out

how you're going to do that so you make

this big deal about you know I could

have been one of the elites but I have

shunned them I have chosen to be among

the people that's as good as he gets

well and I think we shouldn't speaking

on behalf of conservatives who have

attended Ivy League schools there's no

reason to assume that that actually

isn't genuine that DeSantis doesn't in

fact carry both the sort of banal you

know conservative among the liberal Ivy

Leaguers resentment and the more

Boutique I went into the military rather

than going to work for a fancy Law Firm

kind of resentment like I it may not

play on The Campaign Trail I wouldn't

sort of chalk it up to a pose I think

the fact that you sort of notice this

suggests to me in this way suggests to

me that maybe it's really genuine like

he really he is and it really comes up I

think it's I think it's definitely

genuine I will just say that there's

nothing more Elite than getting a very

very high toned education and then going

into a prestigious but low paid field

like public service so or podcasting

move on from DeSantis because it turns

out there are half a dozen other

non-trump candidates also in the race

so when we come back we're going to talk

about them and what they tell us about

the party's attempts to move Beyond

Trump

[Music]

and we're back so I wanted to push the

conversation a bit further than Trump

and DeSantis because I think there are

actually really interesting insights

into the Republican Party writ large

that you can get from looking at the

rest of the field and

I'm curious who are the candidates that

you're most interested by find that they

reveal something rich and interesting

about the Republican party today

Michelle you're looking at me you have a

thought I do have a thought I I think

Tim Scott for me

is what the Republican Party kind of

wants itself to be on some level you

know is it's like the the only black

Republican senator and that gives the

party sort of this way to not think of

itself as a bunch of grumpy old white

racist guys so he is out there and he's

going more for mourning in America than

American Carnage and I think this is a

very upbeat

diverse forward-looking way that the

Republicans want to see themselves but

it's not going to get him very far but

that's who I find like as a window well

interesting one one big challenge that

he has is that he's a favorite son of

South Carolina there's another South

Carolinian in the race and that's Nikki

Haley former Governor she's also

represents diversity she's uh

indian-american and also I think does

not have a prayer of winning the winning

the nomination I mean I think Haley and

Scott together I I agree with Michelle

that they sort of represent a self-image

of the Republican Party especially the

pre-trump Republican party you know the

Republican party as the party of free

market oriented multi-racial optimism

about the future of America the one I'm

fascinated by is Mike Pence

I think just the the dramatic Arc of his

story is is is really interesting here's

a guy who goes all in with Donald Trump

spends four years giving that like

worshipful

resting Pence face gaze you know

standing behind Donald Trump does

everything asked of him

every compromise you know makes every

excuse and then at the end when he

doesn't do the one thing that Trump

wants him to do toss out the election

results he's cast out right hang Mike

Pence so now what does he want to do he

wants to kind of pretend it never

happened right he if you know our

colleagues um on the new side of the New

York Times have reported that he intends

to run as an old school pre-trump

Reagan Coalition conservative right

pro-free trade hawkish foreign policy

fiscal conservative anti-abortion it's

all the old hits right you can just like

erase the Blackboard and start again

um his um the guy setting up the pro pen

Super PAC ran Bob Dole's campaign it

just feels like Scott Scott Reed yes

Scott Reed it's very retro you know the

irony of course of you know bringing

back the Reagan Coalition being the

pitch is twofold right that Reagan

wouldn't hack it in today's Republican

party also Mike Pence didn't vote for

Reagan in 1980 he voted for Jimmy Carter

uh he mentioned that in his Memoir which

I I was very very interested by these

are I mean and this is similar to Nikki

Haley right they're they're running for

the nomination of a Republican party

that has ceased to exist and maybe

they'd be competitive in such a

Republican party pent is sort of the

exception to my view that you know you

can't get that far attacking Donald

Trump's Fitness because Pence is the guy

where the only narrative Arc for him

that makes any sense is to be the guy

who says the Trump Administration was

great and Trump himself wrecked it not

that I think it would work and make him

the nominee but if I were advising Pence

I would say look DeSantis is trying to

just sort of softly Usher Trump off

stage you need to actually try and pick

a fight and generate drama and out alpha

male hymn which I do not anticipate

happening but like that I think is the

only thing that that would justify a

pence campaign is the argument you're

saying that that he could say but

basically everything was fine until

January 6. well yes that would

absolutely be the argument he would make

yes okay so Ross I have a question for

you along those lines though my my

question with Pence is what does he

offer I mean if we're looking at this as

a style

election as we were with Trump you know

it's like it's about being aggrieved and

Macho and angry he doesn't really work

in that way and if you're looking at

policy yes he's very conservative and he

wants to double down on things like

abortion which could be a problem in the

general but when you're talking about

even the primary he's not a populist

he's kind of actually going in the exact

opposite direction which I think is a

problem for the base right like if he's

talking about cutting Social Security

and Medicare and ramping back on that

stuff who is he who is he talking to he

doesn't have the Charisma he doesn't

have the policy well he I mean again I'm

not Carlos is the one who is championing

the fascination of pass right I'm not

I'm not benefiting those chances

one I mean I think one challenge is

you've got Pence and Haley and Tim Scott

right now competing for what is sort of

you know what probably maxes out at 35

to 40 percent of the party you know in a

field where DeSantis demand finishes I'm

curious Russ who are you excited about

um the candidate who's actually closer

to blending the Republican party's

multi-racial future with the actual mood

of conservatives right now is uh Vivek

ramaswamy oh yeah ramaswamy head yes so

so he is the the you know one if you

were going for analogies to the last

democratic go round it's one part Andrew

Yang one part Pete budajesh right he's

the young good at talking fast on

television sort of policy oriented to a

slightly crankish degree in some cases I

think he just came out for you know

predicating the right to vote for early

20-somethings on military service

um or a civics or a Civics test right

um which sounds like the right-wing

version of the kind of ideas that showed

up on yeah Andrew Yang's long lists um

but he's doing well by the standards of

non-rand DeSantis non-donald Trump

candidates in the polls he demonstrates

in part that there's a lot of

conservatives who just like seeing

conservatives who can go on television

and argue with liberal hosts this is a

really important skill set for a

Republican primary he's basically doing

a really really intense

anti-wokenness argument that focuses on

wokeness's connection to civil rights

law civil rights bureaucracy you know

sort of diversity equity and inclusion

enforcement in major corporations as

Downstream from how the federal

government enforces civil rights law

he's certainly much more interesting

than what Haley and Scott and Pence are

offering to date wait you represents

something something that feels fresher

right and more attuned to where the

Republican Party actually is and I think

that it Taps into the the grievance

thing that we were talking about with

Donald Trump earlier that you know

implicit and it should be said that

ramaswamy is a very very rich man and

and has you know hundreds of millions of

dollars from a biotech company I believe

also went to Yale like Ron DeSantis so

he's he's a rich guy

um but he's a rich guy that was not born

with a silver spoon in his mouth and you

know can sort of credit himself for for

being a very successful businessman and

I think that his pitch about sort of

socially responsible investing and Dei

and all this kind of stuff

goes into that this is why you're being

kept down this is why you're not getting

rich is because Corporate America has

sort of bought into the woke agenda and

that means that ordinary Americans are

not able to have access to prosperity in

the same way as if it were about that as

opposed to you know the collapse of late

capitalism it's broader than the the

Disney alone attack right he's taking

that but nationalizing it well and to

have a brown person make that argument

right to have someone who is not an

aggrieved white guy but a you know a

child of an immigrant uh who has a kind

of up from the bootstrap story say you

know actually this whole system is um is

hurting all of us and my story wouldn't

be possible if the the vision of the of

the woke left for Corporate America were

to come true and and to me that that

feels like a very potent story to be

telling

if ramaswamy could could get to 30 or 40

percent of the vote that is how he would

do it potentially with that kind of

narrative that basically links says look

you know woke capitalism is responsible

for economic disappointment wage

stagnation all of these kind of things I

think right now his message is very

effective but for a fairly narrow group

but I agree that long term meaning four

to eight to 12 years

the candidate who can link a critique of

wokeness to some kind of economic

Narrative of American stagnation or what

have you will have a very effective

narrative for republicans and yeah and

ramaswami is like such an effective and

clear Communicator right and I think he

knows all the lingo and all the jargon

of the anti-woke uh vocabulary but he I

think has a way of doing it differently

and the other thing that I wanted to say

is that um he manages to sort of have a

bit of a happy warrior affect as well

there's something kind of sunny and

winning about him and I think that the

trick is that and this is this I think

really gets to what what I think is the

kind of fundamental Vibe of the

Republican party right now is that

it's not sort of you know Sunny Times

you know City on a Hill optimism or

anything like that but it's also not

kind of dour everything is terrible and

I think that the thing that about Rama

Swami is that he sort of does what Trump

does has that happy warrior sense in a

much sunnier package

um that that feels appealing and and new

and fresh in a way that's that's

different and wow I can't believe I'm

even saying this

I think I think that

the mood in the Republican party is

definitely way darker than it was when

Reagan was doing his thing but there is

still a premium for being able to do

what Trump does basically and say things

are dark they're the worst they've ever

been but you know we're turning it

around make America great again they're

going to be amazing right and and yeah I

agree Rama Swami does that more

effectively right now than than DeSantis

in certain ways

so darker than City on a Hill less dark

than American Carnage a sweet spot

all right um

perfect

here in November 2024 God help us we

will be talking uh about many of these

people again but for now let's put the

2024 race on Ice

um speaking of when we come back from

the break things are going to get hot or

cold

[Music]

thank you

[Music]

and we're back let's do our hot cold

it's the moment when one of us shares

something that we're hot for cold on or

somewhere on the thermometer between

Michelle you said you have a hot cold

this week oh I am red hot on the flash

Cult of Hannah waddingham now she is a

long time theater actress mostly in the

west Den in uh London but she also had a

tiny role a Septa vanilla on Game of

Thrones and most American audiences know

her as Rebecca Welton on Ted lasso she's

the team owner but she has in recent

weeks emerged as this Global Phenom as

one of the presenters on Eurovision we

all love Eurovision yes yes the

international music competition where

you have every you know all these like

dozens of bands come together or singers

come together and compete and it was

basically the show was stolen by Hannah

she is 5 foot 11 with platinum blonde

hair and a voice that just goes through

the roof and so she would do these

amazing vocal riffs or she would do

these wacky dances and you're in your

you know like in these massive rainbow

heed ball gowns with heels and it was

just this great spectacle and the

audience went crazy I was like I I had

to actually go back and look up even who

won this year

Sweden incidentally Sweden won

Eurovision but it was really Hannah

waddingham who had everybody going crazy

for her and what I'm hoping now is that

Ted lasso is in its final season she's

coming off Eurovision I'm now hoping you

know maybe she could run for president I

mean she's British but does that really

matter I mean maybe a cab nice cabinet

position perhaps but it was just kind of

this glorious moment where this kind of

everybody was cheering this bizarre

theater Phenom who was taking over the

airwaves but she was that she was the

host she was not a contestant no she was

she was one of the presenters but it

didn't matter I am completely in the

tank here and she is now mine she's not

my hero I'm just glad that something

good will come out of the horror of the

last two seasons of uh Ted lasso the

first season was so great and then it

just really went downhill so

um yeah but at least they're calling it

quits there are a lot of shows Calling

it Quits and that's one of them it was

time it's time to pull the Flop listen

speaking of pulling the block

surprise announcement episode two will

be our concluding episode we've enjoyed

our time sorry sorry guys no you're not

getting off that easy we're gonna keep

making this podcast whether you like it

or not uh but I think that that's a wrap

so uh we will see you guys next week bye

guys

thanks for joining our conversation if

you liked it be sure to follow us on

your favorite listening app to get new

episodes into your feed every Thursday

matter of opinion is produced by

phoebelet Sophia alvarez-boyd and Derek

Arthur edited by Stephanie Joyce and

Annie Rose Strasser our fact check team

is Kate Sinclair Mary March locker and

Michelle Harris mixing by Pat mccusker

original music by Pat mccusker Isaac

Jones and Carol sabero audience strategy

by Shannon busta and Christina samuelski

our executive producer is Annie Rose

Strasser

[Music]

foreign

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