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>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Good bro. Gentlemen, good to see you

again. You back into the world of crazy

people and animals. I watched episode

one today. Like, oh god. First of all,

where the [ __ ] do you find these people?

You you live in that world. Like you

you're in the world of reptiles. We

should just explain. It's a docue

series. It's on HBO. It's called uh

Monsters of God, and it's all about the

reptile trade,

>> which may or may not be responsible for

Florida having 500,000 pythons.

>> Yeah, [laughter]

>> it's it's debatable, right? Like it

seems like it was partially pet owners

who let them go and partially there was

some sort of a reptile research facility

or something like that.

>> Well, there's different theories. There

was a hurricane theory. It was the

people letting go go. I think the more

reasonable one cuz I had a Burmese

python in the 70s when I was a teenager.

I have a photo of it around my neck.

>> What happened to it?

>> People buy them when they're this big

>> and then when they're 15 feet they let

them go cuz what do you you know and

>> Is that what you did?

>> I did not let it go but I

>> What did you do?

>> I have no idea what happened to it to be

honest. I had

>> That's weird. I know.

>> You had a monster and you It just You

don't know what happened to your

monster? I [laughter] I think when I

went to college briefly I gave it to

someone and then I don't know what

happened to but I gave my whole

managerie away to people when I went to

college I had reptiles in my room.

>> Is there an extra level of

responsibility when you're giving away

monsters?

>> You know what I mean? Like if you have a

Chihuahua and you said and your friends

like I'll take her. I love her.

>> That's you know you don't really have to

worry about your you know you have a

[ __ ] python. You're giving away a

python.

>> You got to worry about your Chihuahua

because your the pythons in the

Everglades are going to eat your

Chihuahua when it gets away. Well,

certainly you worry about that, but I

mean, you don't worry about your

Chihuahua being a monster.

>> I'm kidding. Yeah.

>> I mean, if you have a 15 foot python,

that can eat a lot of things and it kind

of needs to eat a lot of things.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Burmese pythons uh did

really well in South Florida. Iguanas

did really well in Florida. You know,

they weren't there in the beginning.

>> That's a good way to put it. Did really

well. Another way to put it is invasive

species that's destroying the ecosystem.

>> Well, they're like us, Joe. They're like

us. We came here and we took over.

[snorts]

>> Yeah, I guess in a lot of ways. Um, so

why did you choose this particular

subject for this

>> new docu series?

>> I'm not going to let Jeremy talk. No,

he'll talk. But, um, I I'll just give

you a lot of it starts with me. So, you

can blame me and then Jeremy Jeremy you

can blame later.

>> Well, you guys did Chimp Crazy, which is

one of my favorites. It's so [ __ ]

insane. That world is so insane.

>> Well, episode one is kind of setting the

table. It gets better, Joe. It gets more

off the, you know, charts when you watch

when you watch two and three and four,

but um and five.

>> Um yeah, it all started um first of all,

I'm a reptile guy. I've been keeping

reptiles and studying reptiles for over,

you know, I'm an old guy. I'm older than

you are. So, uh you know, I've kept them

for, I don't know, 60 years, you know,

plus. I've kept reptiles since my

parents gave me a tortoise when I was

six and I was catching rattlesnakes in

my lunchbox and horned lizards and you

got horn lizards in Texas here that are

really cool and rattlesnakes. Um I've

been bit by rattlesnakes. It's not fun.

>> You got bit by a rattlesnake?

>> Yeah, but that's another story.

>> More times than one.

>> No, I got bit once cuz I learned my

lesson after the first one.

>> What happened?

>> It wasn't good. Don't get bit on my

foot. Did you experience necrosis?

Necrosis rather,

>> you know.

So, normally you would get necro

necrosis. Necrosis where you your finger

would rot. And then this the guy that,

you know, the doctor that I went to at a

hospital, you know, in the emergency,

>> pull up to the microphone.

>> The doctor, you know, in the emergency

room said, "The last guy in here that

got bit by a rattlesnake lost his toe or

something or lost his digits." And he

said, "Good thing you didn't get bit on

a finger because the necrosis can rot

away your finger." And he said, "Good

thing you got bit on the middle of the

foot. You're going to be okay." But the

type of rattlesnake I got bit by,

there's the most venomous rattlesnake in

the country is called a tiger

rattlesnake, but it's not the most

dangerous. Most dangerous is probably a

Mojave rattlesnake or an eastern

diamondback rattlesnake, but you have

western diamondbacks here. But I got bit

by a rattlesnake that had both heotoxin

and neurotoxin. So the necrosis was less

evident with me and it was more like a

cobra where I was starting to stop

breathing and I felt like someone had

put sandbags on my chest an hour into

it. But the first thing you you sense is

obviously the it feels like someone

jabbed me with an X-acto knife and I

looked down and the rattlesnake was

retracting into a burrow. I looked at my

foot but then you taste a metallic taste

in about 15 10 minutes 15 minutes and

you realize uhoh this wasn't a dry bite

but it's not fun. I got a lot of

antivenenom. take a different

antivenenom today. I got bit 25 years

ago. [snorts]

>> And how long does it take you to recover

from something like that?

>> You know, the most painful part was the

serum sickness from the antivenenom. The

the lose stop breathing thing. I

remember I was on a gurnie and I just

felt like I was going to stop breathing,

but weirdly not that painful, but like

you but yet you feel like you're going

to die and stop breathing. But the serum

sickness is just unbelievably intense

for weeks and you just have the most

insane fever and you get these red

blotches all over you. But they make a

different serum now. That that one was

made out of horse antibodies that they

put into you and my body didn't like

those horse antibodies.

>> Oh god. Yeah.

>> Also maybe don't wear Birkenstocks when

you hike. That's probably the

>> river sandals. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cuz I

got bit. Most people get bit [ __ ]

around with a rattlesnake. I wasn't.

>> What is this, Jimmy? that they used all

of the antivenenom at the hospital and

had to go get more from another

hospital.

>> Ran out of antivenenom after using a

whopping 36 vials. Holy [ __ ] man.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yikes.

>> They're [ __ ] scary, man. I've I've

had dogs bit. I had this one dog. He got

bit twice.

>> Yeah.

>> It was a real problem. His face would

swell up. I had to bring him to the vet.

But luckily, they have antivenom for

dogs. It works pretty well.

>> Yeah.

>> He was kind of out of it for a few days,

then he came back.

>> Yeah. How fast the response?

>> Not bad. Yeah,

>> not bad. It was funny because he got bit

once.

>> He was He was a crazy dog. He was always

killing lizards. Like that was his

thing. Like anything in the backyard he

would kill.

>> And uh he got bit by the rattlesnake and

I knew it cuz I was I was out there. I

heard him. I heard the commotion. I saw

the snake. I knew what it was. So I got

him to the veterinarian immediately.

They got him the His face swell up, but

they got him the antivenenom and he was

good. And then he got bit again like

maybe a year later. And I brought him to

the vet cuz I said I saw him get bit by

rattlesnake. And the vet was like,

"Well, I don't see any swelling and I

don't see a whole but he had developed a

resistance to it because he had gotten

bit once." And so then I got him home

and all a sudden his face starts

swelling up. I'm like, "Ah, fuck." Then

I bring him back to the vet. Then he had

to get the ant.

>> But a goodiz dog, not

>> Yeah. He was about 90 pound dog.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And that was a western

diamondback rattlesnake, I gather.

>> California. I don't know.

>> Oh, it was in California.

>> It was in California. Oh, it wasn't out

here.

>> Oh, it was what did me then? Probably.

Southern Pacific rattlesnake. Yeah.

Okay.

>> Yeah. We We had a problem in my

California house. One of the houses that

I used to live in. It was It was There

was a lot of It was very canyonyy.

>> It was a lot of stuff back there.

Bobcats.

>> That's the same snake that bit me.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Spooky, man. We were running once. We

were running the trail and in midst

stride I realized that the log that I

thought was across the road was a giant

rattlesnake. It was [ __ ] big, man.

Like the biggest one I had ever seen out

in the wild. And the dogs didn't notice

it. They ran right over it. And then I

ran over it. I was like, "Oh, [ __ ]

man." And then I'm trying to figure out

what to do cuz I know we're going to

have to come back this way when we go

back up the hill. So I'm throwing rocks

at it trying to get it to run away.

[laughter]

[sighs]

>> Yeah. Now, I've handled a lot of

rattlesnakes in my life and cobras and

other snakes, and to get bit that way is

very unusual. Usually, people are being

jerks and idiots and drunk and handling

a snake and it bites them.

>> Where were you? Were you just walking?

>> I was hiking in the mountains in north

of LA just a bit and uh I was actually

looking for snakes cuz I snakes and I

didn't see the snakes. The snake saw me

first and I was bushwacking. I wasn't on

a trail. I didn't see it and it bit me

on my foot. So you have this lifetime

experience with reptiles and snakes and

so you just decide you must have

interacted with a lot of these really

crazy people and just decided this is

the next

>> Yeah. takes one to no one.

>> Yeah.

>> Be careful.

>> Next point of focus.

>> That's sort of where it all started.

Really?

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, listen. I I was,

you know, a closeted reptile guy living

in New York City, hanging out with, you

know, Madonna, cool people in the 80s

and 90s. I had a nightclub and I had

friends friends with lots of artists,

Andy Warhol, and I never really talked

about reptiles. Actually, Andy asked me,

"What am I going to do with my money?"

He interviewed me one time for Andy

Warhol TV, and I said, "I'm going to buy

reptiles." And I actually said, "I'm

gonna buy tortoises."

tortoises,

>> but I was pretty closeted, but I still

kept them in New York. And uh

>> you know, fast forward when I decided to

try to do a film about it, I'd been

traveling all over the world to

Madagascar and Sulowi and different

parts of South America, trying to study

reptiles and especially turtles and

tortoises that were very rare. I started

photog filming people like you know kind

of notable people Christopher Walkin and

you know Slash and uh I don't know all

kinds of people that I knew in New York

City and I would just ask them to hold a

turtle or tortoise and say some words

for like PSAs and I was doing that with

these two guys named the Safy brothers

and fast forward they now Josh has just

had a film called Marty Supreme with

Timothy Shalomé that was up for an

Oscar. Little did I know that I was

working with these kids that were going

to be these new filmmakers and we were

making these films and then we made a

short film about reptiles. It's crazy

called Trophy Hunter. It's very short.

Um, and we did that together. And then I

said to them, "Hey man, you guys are

read this new book called The Lizard

King. It's about the reptile world.

Let's do a doc about the reptile world."

And I'd already told Fischer Stevens, a

friend of mine, hey, let's do a doc

about this, you know, book The Lizard

King. And he said to me, "How are you

going to do that doc without getting

killed, Eric?" And you know, he won an

Oscar for the Cove and I thought, you

know, I'm going to get these good guys

and do a doc about reptiles. So anyway,

we started in 200.

>> Why did you think why do you think

you're going to get killed?

>> He read The Lizard King and he said, you

know, you're going to do a story about

this guy that went to prison for a

hundred years and this other guy that

you know is the Pablo Escobar reptiles

and he just said, "It's a dark world. I

don't know how you're going to do this

without getting killed."

>> So what is about the lizard world or the

reptile world that makes it so dark?

Like why are those people do you think

attracted to it?

>> Well, not all of them are scary people

and I would say a lot of them may be

misunderstood a little bit, but there's

in the case of Mario, there was a

crossover with drugs, smuggling drugs

and animals into the country. Well, for

but for background, you know what what

what is different than these other films

that we've done. You know, this was an

industry story. Um that kind of looks

back at the h, you know, past half

century. Um you know, what most people

don't know is illegal wildlife

trafficking represents about a 20

billion year industry. It's kind of

under reportported actually, uh only

after guns, drugs, and human

trafficking. And what's really

interesting about that is it's there's

there's a convergence of all of it. You

know, wildlife trafficking also involves

drugs and trafficking of guns. There's

there's a lot of mix mixture of it.

>> Whenever people are bringing in things

illegally, they tend to be a risk-taking

type

>> of course, but you know, in the in the

kind of pre, you know, customs TSA days

when as intensed as is now, it was very

easy to, you know, carry animals and

carry wildlife.

>> Yeah. That was something I didn't even

think about until I was watching. And I

was like, "Oh god, I remember those days

where they didn't check your bags and

they didn't even check your ID. You just

had a ticket

>> and you just get on the plane." So you

would just get on the plane with

lizards.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, most suitcase Yeah. strapped to

your body, right? The thing with about

what was so interesting about reptiles

in this case within the trade is they're

portable. They're nature with handles.

You go, you see in the early episode of

episode one, people traveling around the

world, you know, finding rare endangered

animals, putting in their suitcase and

bringing them back, putting them on a

price list and selling them to a

consumer. And that was the kind of early

days. I mean, the the story, The Lizard

King, but many much, you know, in our

series, it's handful of guys, mainly

guys, you know, start a multi-billion

dollar industry. And you see this kind

of innovation happen over the course of

the series as you know as the years go

on.

>> Yeah. But when we say multibillion I

have to kind of contextualize that it's

when you when people say that the

wildlife trade is multi-billion dollar

industry. You got to remember it's a lot

of its consumption. You know, the Asian

population eats a lot of turtles, a lot

of snakes, a lot of its traditional

medicine, a lot of its skins, you know,

>> and plant material,

>> alligator skin bags, crocodile skin

bags, lizard skin bags, snake skin bags.

So, it's

>> it's a lot more than just the exotic pet

industry. But that's gotten enormous in

Asia. They picked they took a page out

of our playbook about 25 years ago. You

know, China is now a huge consumer of

not just eating these reptiles, but

keeping them as exotic pets. That didn't

happen before 2530 years ago.

>> Asia. Asia.

>> Why? Why does California have a ban on

python skin? Isn't pythons are not

endangered, right?

>> Well, it depends on the type of python.

But yeah, the python skinning business

actually is where all the Burmese

pythons came from in the 70s that I had

as a kid. They would skin the pythons,

take the eggs, incubate the eggs, sell

the baby pythons to the United States

and other consumer countries that wanted

baby pythons. Um, most of the pythons

that are skinned in Southeast Asia, and

I've been to python skinning places in

Somatra, blood pythons, reticulated

pythons, Burmese pythons, but mostly

blood pythons, reticulated python

pythons. They're wild cod and most of

them are not endangered.

But they're it's but you know, there

less and less pythons out there, but

they're not endangered. Those pythons,

>> well, there's a [ __ ] ton in Florida.

That's what I don't understand. I mean,

there's this giant problem in Florida

where they're overrun with pythons. And

yet, California, you can't sell python

skins. It seems like there's a solution

there, [laughter]

you know, people want python skins. Oh,

look, a place that's overrun with

pythons. Maybe you should get your

python skin there.

>> Yeah. The cooler python skins are not

Burmese pythons, the ones in Florida.

The cooler ones people like, like Nick

Cage in what was that film where he's

wearing that python skin jacket. It's a

reticulated python. That's

>> Wild Heart.

>> That's Yeah, Wild at Heart. That's gold

and black. The cooler python skins just

happen not to be Burmese pythons which

are the ones running rampant in Florida.

Although they should make those trendy

and use Burmese pythons, but but they're

not usually. You don't r You rarely see

Bur.

>> That's That's a reticulated python.

That's not a Burmese. That That's the

one people want. That's from Southeast

Asia. That's not the one running wild in

Florida.

>> Is that That's illegal in California

right now then. That jacket.

>> Is that right?

>> I believe so. I don't believe you can

get it imported.

>> Yeah, you must. I think let's try

>> I had read something about python being

one of the things that they made

illegal. Why California bans python skin

ban dates to 1970. Oh

>> uh aimed at protecting endangered and

vulnerable species particularly the

Indian python which was on the

endangered species list. California

chose to prohibit all python products

rather than distinguished by species.

Created an extraordinarily broad statute

banning all python imports. Oh that's

interesting. I thought it was fairly

recent. Well, that's where the laws, I

think, are really screwed up. When they

basically say all pythons are bad to

sell when the Indian rock python is

endangered, and there are a few

endangered pythons, but to say all

pythons cannot be used for the skin

trade and sold in California because of

one python out of many pythons.

>> Welcome to California.

>> Yeah,

>> I happen to live there. I know what it's

like. I want I love Austin, by the way.

I might buy a house next to you. Now,

>> Austin rules, but California is just so

overregulated with everything. So,

particularly wildlife.

>> And same thing in Florida though with

with the green iguana. Um, Eric, right?

I mean, at the same time.

>> Yeah.

>> Same thing so regulation

>> wise. And again, there's 40 people eat

those.

>> There's 45 types of iguanas in the

world.

>> Did you not know that?

>> No.

>> Oh, yeah. There's a whole YouTube

community of people who hunt iguanas and

cook them in exotic ways. They make

iguana stirfry

>> in South Florida.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> it looks good. I mean, I don't know

anything about what it tastes like, but

this guy made like a stir fry over rice.

And they were eating it and they're

like, "Oh my god, this is sensational."

Like teriyak. It look very good.

>> Everyone always says croc alligator

iguana rattlesnake tastes like chicken.

>> But but yeah, they eat the tail.

>> I mean I mean I have a you can imagine I

have a really messed up algorithm from

being involved in this for so long, but

that I never came across. But the you

know the frozen they when the drop Yeah.

There we go.

>> They use the legs. They cook the legs.

>> Yeah. And the back of the tail.

>> So there's the tail. Yeah.

>> So he's got it marinating. Zip locked

it.

>> Yeah.

>> Then it looks like he's gonna

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, look. He's got the whole thing.

>> Oh, wow. Usually it's the back of the

tail like like like crocodiles. You eat

the back of the tail.

>> But it's far out. They I mean there's a

there's a

>> Wow. Look at that. He's eating the whole

thing.

>> Yeah.

>> In Mexico, I always see them make, you

know, iguana tamales out of the back

part of the iguana.

>> So you put it in a komado. Oh wow. Damn.

>> And he's got a

>> little sauce he's making here with some

butter and spices

>> basting it.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, why not if it tastes good? And

apparently it does taste good according

to all these guys that I've seen on

YouTube channels. Like they are pretty

honest about it. Like they bring it to

their family. They let their family try

it.

>> I think uh you know that might be the

only way out cuz they're everywhere in

Florida. Like they when it gets cold out

they fall out of trees.

>> They Yeah. They [laughter] fall out of

trees. I love the news reports.

>> They're [ __ ] big, too, man.

>> Yeah, they're massive.

>> There's some some channels where these

guys hunt them, and some of them are

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>> The males get crazy and they get very

orange and really big. The male iguanas,

>> they're so beautiful.

>> They're such a cool looking lizard, man.

>> There's a lot of really cool iguanas.

And in our show, we feature what's

called a Fiji Island iguano. very

endangered iguana that unfortunately

people in the private sector in this

country cannot own. Zoos can own them. I

don't know why private people can't own

them, but the San Diego zoo and this zoo

and that zoo can have feed iguanas. But

they in our show they literally, this

one guy says it's reptile magic. It's

like reptile art. I feed you aliguana.

You might want to put it up there. It's

really just the beauty of it.

>> Just the sheer beauty. The sheer beauty.

It's like lemon highlights.

>> Turquoise and green. And it's it's a

very endangered iguana.

>> Um,

>> so the Florida iguana problem, was that

all people's pets that got released?

>> Probably all of it.

>> Well, listen, also what's again going

back to the show, but you know, we the

central figure of the book is this guy

named Mike Venostrom and his dad, Ray

Van Norand. They run an enterprise

called Strictly Reptiles in Hollywood.

Right. It's in Hollywood.

>> Yeah. Hollywood, Florida.

>> Hollywood, Florida. Yeah. Um, and

they're sort of this like, you know, I I

would call it like more of a fulfillment

center for wildlife all across America.

>> Fulfillment center.

>> They are. I mean, in many way they're

>> so like it's an Amazon warehouse.

>> Click I want a tortoise.

>> They were selling 5,000 iguanas a week.

>> Well, green baby iguanas.

>> They got to that point. So, so this the

story goes dad moves to Florida, starts

a business, evolves. Um, Jurassic Park

comes out. Jurassic Park comes out,

everyone wanted a pet dinosaur. The the

the green [snorts] iguana market went on

fire. He was selling 5,000 a week. And

you know, you know, I was a '90s kid. I

I had a I had an iguana in my, you know,

my bedroom.

>> Jeremy's a virgin, but he did have a

>> I did I had a pet that unfortunately

[clears throat] passed away. The rock

thing, you know, the heated rock, you

know, that happens. But but yeah, no,

the there's sort of so so the story

>> heated rock thing.

>> No, they have this like rock thing where

it it sits on and it's

>> keeps it warm. keeps it warm and then I

think it kept on too long. I think he

>> he cooked his iguana.

>> My gu sadly

>> cooked his iguana.

>> Thanks.

>> But I've learned I've learned a lot. Um

>> but but filled with these unintended

consequences, you know. I think this

idea of a big movie coming out, the

correlation to, you know, driving, you

know, demand for pet sales.

>> Thank god people can't buy a [ __ ]

velociraptor.

>> Well, you know,

>> because people would have them. They'd

have fences set up in their yard.

>> Joe, you've had the Colossus people on

this show. I think they they want to

bring back one of those and a woolly

mammoth.

>> Well, there's no chance that they can

bring with current technology. They

don't have dinosaur DNA. It's too old.

I'm joking.

>> But they're I mean I met the direwolves.

>> It's wild. They brought back the

>> direwolf a direwolf.

>> What does that mean?

>> I mean,

>> have you talked to geneticists? What is

it? It is a bunch of different traits.

>> Don't go down that rabbit hole. It's

close to a direwolf.

>> I mean, I don't know what that means

because like we decide what a direwolf

is, what a direwolf isn't. But if you

take literal direwolf DNA that's 7,000

years old and you add it to these

greywolves and this is what they did and

they created essentially a direwolf.

It's like people are arguing over

semantics. Whatever it is that's not a

wolf. It's it's very different. It looks

different than a regular wolf. Like a

grey wolf.

>> The stature is different. It has a mane.

It's really crazy looking. They're

white. They're stockier. They they

they're built differently. Like you you

see like oh that's different.

>> Yeah. Well, like what like Maine wolves

in Argentina look very different than

our wolves. So, they're very different

types of canines, you know, wild dogs in

Africa look very different, you know,

than our, you know, so yeah.

>> But, um, yeah, I mean, one thing I'll

just say about iguanas, just since we

were on it, is that because I'm on an

organization called the International

Iguana Foundation and we protect iguanas

around the world and people get

confused. They think, "Oh, iguana,

that's so common. They're falling out of

trees in Florida." But there are a lot

of really rare, cool iguanas. There's

about 45 species and there's pink

iguanas in the Galopagus Islands, land

iguanas. There's marine iguanas. There's

a very rare high elevation pink iguana.

There's a land another land iguana in

the Gopagos. There's a uh you know

marine a marine iguana, but that lizard

was fairly recently discovered. And

there's some iguanas that were thought

to be extinct, Joe, like the K like the

Jamaican iguana. And that was thought to

be extinct forever, the Jamaican iguana.

But they found a tiny population

recently. So there's a lot of iguanas

that are in tr in trouble and you know

we should care about iguanas and they're

not just green iguanas. Yeah. That the

pink iguana that's a marine iguana and a

regular gopicus land iguana and then you

you see some of the pink form.

>> Jamie, see if you can find a video on

Florida people hunting iguanas. So

Florida people hunting giant iguanas cuz

some of them are so big you just you see

them you're like, "Oh my god." Are those

bad to eat though? The big giant ones.

>> Would you eat one being like a pet a

reptile pet guy?

>> I've Look at the size of that one.

>> Yeah, that's a male. That's a male when

they get orange like that. Yeah, that's

a big male. I

>> mean, these things are gigantic, man.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Now, that's a common green iguana. And

the males lose their green and get that

incredible yellow orange. Those are

males. Yeah.

>> Isn't that crazy how many of them there

are, though? I mean, it is just overrun

with iguanas. I guess they have no

natural predators, right? There's

nothing that eats them there.

>> Not once they get big like that. When

they're little, some birds of prey and

some snakes can eat baby iguanas, but

not once they're like that.

>> But they're pretty chill. [snorts] I

mean, they don't really do much harm.

>> Well, don't they though to people's

crops and people's houses?

>> No, they do. They do do damage. They

they they they're not supposed to be in

Florida. Let's put it that way. Iguanas

like water typically. They like to be

around water. The green iguanas. But,

you know, reptiles have a bad PR

problem. And that's why we're here, Joe.

>> [laughter]

>> We're trying to elevate the publicity of

people loving reptiles and not killing

them.

>> This dude [snorts] is all out there

killing them. Who's this? [laughter]

Who's this dude? Topshelf anglers on

Instagram. He's just

>> Oh, you can do an expedition.

>> Oh, so he's just a Florida guy that's

enjoying

also.

>> No, that now is a different that's a

called a Tosaurus. That's a type of

Central American Mexican rock iguana.

That that lizard that's not a green

iguana. So Florida has a variety.

>> Yeah, they have those as well. And they

have teos in Florida that come from

South America, a different type of

lizard that's invasive in Florida.

>> And all of it is pets.

>> Yeah. People letting go.

>> I had no idea that many people had

iguanas that it could be this big of a

problem.

>> Yeah. Pet iguanas were everywhere at one

time. Yeah.

>> And does this really

>> That's the tea. That's also invasive in

Florida.

>> That's crazy looking.

>> Yeah. I used to sleep with one of those

when I was a teenager.

>> Looks like a snake with legs. It does.

>> Yeah. Look at that.

>> Yeah. Their face, right? Totally.

>> And that lizard really loves to eat

eggs. I used to feed mine eggs. And I've

seen them in the wild eating eggs, bird

eggs, duck eggs.

>> When I lived in the valley, um there was

a reptile store. And uh it was a place

where I used to go buy goldfish cuz I

used to have piranhas. And I used to

have turtles, too. Yeah.

>> And the turtles were way more vicious

than the piranhas.

>> Those aquatic when you put goldfish in

with the turtles, turtles, it's they're

crazy, man. And they grab a hold of them

and they They're biting him. It's like

very Jurassic Park. Like you're watching

little

>> slider snapping turtle.

>> Yeah. Well, these are just little, you

know, little green sliders.

>> Sliders. Is that what they're called?

>> Um, but they had a crocodile monitor in

that place and I Yeah. I briefly thought

like, oo, maybe I could figure out an

enclosure. Put a crocodile monitor, feed

it rabbits and [ __ ]

>> Don't get bit by a crocodile monitor.

They're close to like a Komodo dragon

bite. They have scapple teeth. They are

serious getting bit by a crocodile

monitor.

>> It looked pretty vicious. I mean, they

just look like dinosaurs. It's like a

forgotten thing of the P. There it is.

>> There's a crocodile monitor. Look at

that face, man.

>> That totally looks like a dinosaur.

>> Well, there's Tommy who's who's

in episode feeding a chicken.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, Tommy. [laughter]

>> They are the weirdest [ __ ] people

because I kind of understand the chimp

people more cuz the chimp people like a

chimp is interacting with you. It's it's

a mammal. It's a primate. It's

intelligent.

>> There's a lot going on. There's emotions

and jealousy and chimps. They they're

connecting with you. These things,

they're just you're just looking into

the abyss

>> until the chimp rips your head off.

>> Yeah. Well, I'm not advocating for

people to have chimps as pets.

>> I just say I understand the appeal of a

pet chimp. I think it's a crazy idea,

>> especially a baby chimp.

>> I think if anybody's even remotely

thinking about it, they should watch Jim

Crazy.

>> Yes.

>> Um but yeah, especially the babies.

They're so cute. And then they

eventually get to the point where they

kill your neighbor. Yeah,

>> but it's just you don't want, you know,

I get I just get the appeal of it. The

appeal of the reptile thing to me is

just very strange. Like these people

love them.

>> Well, I loved what, you know, I used to

keep snakes and lizards, but I

ultimately they were my gateway drug and

then I ultimately got into tortoises

because I like the tortoises coexisting

in the garden. I like plants. like

gardens and so it didn't feel like they

were in a cage and they kind of you know

maybe I'm anthropomorphizing

my tortoises but I kind of felt like

they were having a pretty good life in

my garden so

>> for sure.

>> So I like keeping tortoises. They don't

you know want to eat a rabbit

particularly. They want to eat some

lettuce or some greens or so turtles and

tortoises is what I gravitated to. And

then I found out one day they're the

most endangered group of animals on the

planet along with primates. If you

measure it by how many turtles and

tortoises there are in the world and how

many are facing extinction along with

primates. So then I was like, okay, I

want to do something to help them. And

and this show we're doing is really to

teach people about the evolution of the

reptile trade and to make people realize

they're cool and they shouldn't be

disposable pets. And

>> also freak show.

>> And freak show, of course.

really good at freak shows.

>> As I said, it takes one to know

[laughter] one. But it's But what's

different what's different though is

that this isn't some like side hustle

for animal love gone wrong. You know, it

it's it's there's these people. There's

this the animal the the reptile people,

the her people are incredibly obsessive

about, you know, living art, about these

living things. They like the it's like a

baseball card. Like the

>> word you use the her people. Herp. Yeah.

her her

>> people. Herptologology. Amphibians and

reptiles.

>> Yeah. Um, sorry. Well, you know, Deod

the herpey people. [clears throat]

No, but um but it it's um you know, it's

a it's it's really a trade formed around

scarcity and you know, this sort of

desire and adventure people have going

out to find the rarest of the rare,

>> you know, and bringing it back and

selling it, trading it, keeping it. I'm

in that category.

>> You are in that category.

>> I'm in that category. I'm not the guy

that just wants the little pet bearded

dragon. I want the Rolls-Royce of

reptiles.

>> But it's different than like, you know,

an individual person that has an

attachment to a chimpanzeee that she saw

with, you know, watching Tarzan when she

was growing up. And she wanted to have

that in her life.

>> So, in other words, freaky people like

>> freaky people, extreme extreme

obsessions, but it's about kind of, you

know, psychology of people in this in

this particular very niche way. Well,

any time you're dealing with extreme

animal people, it's about the psychology

of the human being that's really

invested in it, right?

>> Yeah. Best in show. Yeah. Yeah. For

sure. And these are these are very

unusual people because it's a very

unusual thing to be connected to

something that really doesn't give a

[ __ ] about you. Like we're really

concerned about this pink iguana. That

pink iguana doesn't give a [snorts] [ __ ]

about people. If all the people on Earth

died, it would just keep going about its

business and not shed a tear.

>> Yeah. Well, especially things that can

kill you in this way, you know, like a

taipan or whatever. Someone playing with

that.

>> An inland taipan is a venomous snake

from Australia that may be the most

venomous snake in the world, but it's

all relative because a black mamba, you

know. Yeah, Australia has a lot of

venomous stuff.

>> Um, spiders, box jellyfish, a lot of

snakes that are very dangerous.

Australian tiger snake, brown snake,

inland taipan, they're all things that

equally can kill you. So to say one's

more dangerous than the other, they'll

all kill you.

>> Is there antivenenom for all of them?

>> No, actually. So it's a good question.

So some snakes like, you know, Texas has

a coral snake for example, a very

venomous elapid type of snake like a

cobra, not like a rattlesnake. And I

think they have less and less

antivenenom for snakes that rarely bite

people because like sea snakes, the

coral snake, which is the red, black,

and yellow one that you have in East

Texas. Um, you know, when the dog gets

bit by, you were talking about your dog

getting bit by rattlesnakes. A lot of

time the vet doesn't know because you

can't even see the bite. The snake bite

is so tiny. So some snakes do not have

antivenenom. Some really dangerous

snakes,

>> but coral snakes, they don't have

antivenenom for them. I I think I heard

that maybe not anymore. I'm sure it's

faded.

>> So, what happens if you get bit?

>> Well, there may be some antivenenom, but

there's not a lot of it. Antivenenom has

gotten very expensive and it's very

sophisticated now and it's mostly for,

you know, in the US for vipers, you

know, for rattlesnakes, you know. Um,

but I don't know. Good question. That

would be something someone smarter than

me would know about coralnake

antivenenom. But it's an elapid like a

cobra.

>> You know,

>> a friend of mine had two of them in her

carport.

Yeah,

>> they they took pictures of it and sent

it to people and everyone's like, "Yeah,

that's Keep away from that. Just

chilling in her carport."

>> Yeah.

>> But they're generally not aggressive. Is

that the deal?

>> Yeah. There's a a saying and it doesn't

fit all because there's coil snakes that

don't have this. But yellow against

black is a friend of Jack. Uh yellow and

black against red is uh anyway, I can't

even say wind up dead or something.

Yeah, you wind up dead. But it's I'm

getting it wrong. But there's a saying

and it doesn't hold true for all coral

snakes because there's some coral snakes

outside of the US that don't have that

same pattern.

>> So if there's no antivenom and they take

you to the hospital, what did they do?

>> They stopped making the coral.

>> I mean there's some they stop making it

cost.

>> Is that what it says?

>> Ineffective.

>> I think that's what I heard.

>> Cost ineffective.

>> No longer.

>> Just let people die.

>> Cost effective is a crazy thing to say

when it comes to [ __ ] keeping people

alive.

>> Wow. I was I was right for a change.

>> Capitalist [ __ ] Maybe the socialists

are right. [laughter]

that was made by

>> cost effective is crazy. So, what did

they do?

>> Uh, you know, I heard every rattlesnake

joke after I got bit and there's one

that's is these three guys are out

hiking and someone gets bit here and

they go to the doctor and the guy says,

"You got to go back and suck it out of

him and the guy just says to him, you

got you're going to die." So, maybe you

die with a coralnake.

>> Yeah.

>> Just leave you die.

>> The the thing I was we were recently

were looking at this the way of treating

rattlesnake mics. Not too long ago, by

the way, you sell these Johnson and

Johnson used to sell these kits where

you you used to have one, right? You

you'd you'd actually literally slice out

and you'd suck out the suck out the

venom out of your out of your bite.

>> Does it actually work?

>> No.

>> That was incredible about it. There's

>> when you when we were young, they had

these little rattlesnake kits. You know,

I'm a little older than you, but it was

insane what they told people to do back

then. They told you to cut yourself and

then put a tourniquet and then suck the

venom out, which is completely insane

because when a rattlesnake strikes, you

know, they never hold on a rattlesnake.

They strike and let go immediately and

then they track their prey and it's

literally like a hypodermic needle going

into your body and the, you know, the

venom is already just like when they

inject you with something, it's already

in you. You can't suck the whatever a

doctor.

>> So, what should you do if you get bit by

Ronald?

>> Be be mellow. In my case, I walked to my

car. Luckily, I wasn't too far away from

my car and I was up in the mountains

about an hour away from a hospital. I

drove Well, I drove like a bat out of

hell to the hospital, actually. But

you're supposed to be calm um and get to

a hospital. Incredible. Yeah.

>> Jeez. And it was just [ __ ] huh?

>> Well, imagine taking out the woods like

we're fine.

>> Yeah. Everything you shouldn't

Everything you shouldn't do today.

Everything you shouldn't.

>> And so you just stay mellow and get to

the hospital. And if they don't have any

antivenenom, you just die. Well, in my

case, they didn't have it in the

hospital. They had to get see highway

patrol to bring it from another from

Ventura. Um, and it took about 45

minutes and I thought I was going to die

on the gurnie. But yeah, you get to a

hospital and you get antivenenom if it's

a bad bite.

>> And if they don't have antivenenom, you

die.

>> Well, it depends on the kind of snake.

Like water moccasins usually aren't

lethal, but certain rattlesnakes can

kill you.

>> And how much time do you have from the

time you get bit where you must get the

antivenenom in you? I mean, in my case,

I swear to God, I thought I was going to

stop breathing about two hours into it.

It just slowly feels like this pressure

on your chest,

>> like you can't breathe.

>> Yeah. Like you're like you It felt like

somebody had put sandbags all over me

and like you have this pressure and you

feel like you're going to stop

breathing. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's kind of bizarre.

>> Who's that guy? Ross Ross Allen. Um he

has the world record for the most

>> Is it cobra bites?

>> No, I think you're talking about

Serpentarium. that same guy,

>> Bill Hos. Bill Hos, he lived to like a

hundred, but and I know people that

inject themselves with venom. I was in

Myanmar in Burma one time, and this guy

had snake tattoos all over him. And he

was a snake wrangler at this zoo in

central Burma, and every tattoo he had

he had put on his body, he had put some

venom in it so he could handle these

really dangerous crates, which are like

cobras. And he was this guy with all

these snake tattoos, but he had

invenimated himself so he would have

antibodies so he could handle these

snakes and if he got bit he wouldn't

die.

>> But [snorts] early roadside attractions

in South I mean that's the part about

Florida. It goes back. It's in the 50s

and 60s. It had you know Miami

Serpentarium was an amazing looking

place. Had this giant cobra um you know

with sculpture basically.

>> Here's a question. If they do that with

allergies where they give you like a

little bit of the allergen you develop a

resistance to it. Could they do that

with snakes? It's like if you live in a

snake prone area, should you do that?

>> No. But that's the idea.

>> Why wouldn't you do that? If

>> there there's a guy right now in the US

that's doing it. I think they're doing a

film upon about him injecting all these

venomous snake venoms into him like a

pin cushion. But no, I don't think

people should do it, but people do do

it. Not not a lot of people, but this

guy

>> it does build up your antibodies and you

know that you're going to come in

contact with snakes. Listen,

>> wouldn't that be is it bad for you to

do?

>> Look, the country that I think has the

most deadly snake bites is probably

India. The country where there's the

most deaths and invenimation. The snake

that probably kills more people in the

world is a puffatter in Africa. But it's

many countries. But I think India has

the highest. US, it's pretty low chance

you're going to get killed by a snake.

you're going to get killed driving your

car or shooting someone with your gun.

You know, it's highly unlikely that the

odds are very low that you're going to

die from a snake by no matter where you

live in the

>> I understand that it's all well and

good, but that doesn't comfort you if

you get bit by a snake. [laughter] Like,

oh, what are the odds?

>> Seek medical. You have to deal with it

or by one of those kids.

>> I think most people live, Joe. I think

most people I mean, there's a few people

that die this year in California. Um,

but typically it's like only a few

people a year die in the country from

snake bites. And is it generally because

they just don't get to medical treatment

in time

>> or they're older or you know or they get

bit three times you know like not just

once by the rattlesnake

>> you know you have more venom in them.

>> Is it true that the young ones give you

more venom than the old ones?

>> No young young ones have a more

condensed more dangerous venom. But big

snakes will are much more dangerous

because they can put far more venom into

you. the little ones have have a more

potent venom, but they can't inject as

much into you. So, that's kind of people

misunderstand that stat. [snorts]

>> Not that I'm a snake expert. I'm more of

a turtle expert and I I'm more of a

freak expert. So, I'm good at finding

these [laughter]

crazy people to cover.

>> Do you get uncomfortable being around

these people?

>> Ah, that's a good question. Um

because there's there's a psychological

aspect to all particularly like chimp

crazy.

>> There's there's something about those

people that makes me uneasy watching it

on TV. Like you're so far gone.

>> Like some of these people are so far

gone

>> in terms of like just being a normal

[snorts] present rational person.

>> Yeah. There's a courtship and sometimes

that courtship takes years to get

someone willing to be interviewed. It's

generally the reptile world can be very

guarded. People that have them don't

want the feds coming and taking their

rare reptiles. They don't want animal

rights groups. PETA coming and busting

them. They don't want people coming

because they're very valuable. Some

reptiles are worth a lot of money. So,

they're very guarded. and to get access

to a lot of these people took a lot of

time at times and sometimes that

relationship would go up and down and

there were times when people that I was

interviewing really did not like me.

There was something that happened and

then I would have to go there and I'd be

nervous because that person may have

been someone who did a lot of time in

prison and did some heavy things in his

life. So yeah, there are times when

you're just kind of like, you know, is

this the time I'm going to go there and

he's going to really [ __ ] me up? Why

didn't [snorts] they like you?

>> [sighs]

>> You know, man,

you know, like listen, I like this guy.

He's done a He's done what he's done in

the past. He was sentenced to 100 years

in prison. He got out for whatever

reason. But that guy that [laughter] guy

>> Wait a minute. Why did he go to jail for

100 years?

>> Well,

Mario Tawi was sentenced to 100 plus

years in prison. He got out early

because he must have had some serious

experience.

>> What was the crime?

>> Murder and drugs.

And he got out early because he you said

he had information.

>> He must have. He did 12 years and no one

knows no one knows what

>> he only did 12 years for murder and

drugs.

>> But I like him.

>> Oh, great. I I wasn't the one murdered.

I wasn't in his life back then. But he's

kind of a I He really actually does love

animals. I mean, in his way. And I was

nervous sometimes going to his place a

few times.

>> Well, why was he mad at you?

>> Oh, [ __ ] Do you remember all the times

he was mad at me? He's mad at He's

probably mad at me right now as I'm

speaking.

>> He definitely will be after the show,

probably.

>> Yeah. Well, that's this this is the next

episode. There's an entire episode that

talks about kind of the 80s in Miami and

the sort of overlap between the drug

trade and the illegal wildlife trade and

the reptile trade and he's a central

character in it. Miami. Well, he's kind

of more tangential because it's really

about this this guy Ray Van Norand guy

from New Jersey moved down to [snorts]

Florida, started a business um that

became strictly reptiles as I was

referencing. But um yeah, I mean the re

I don't think there was anything like

particular but he would get very

particular about very specific things

like if you were you could be right

about a million things that he hated but

wrong about one thing that he cared

about the most and he would categorize

you to be this person that is you know

>> there's an expression honor among

thieves and he weirdly has this kind of

honorable side

>> unredeemable. Yeah. and and certain

things I would say to him would make him

really upset. But I have to say the only

time I was ever shot at in my life was

in [ __ ] Miami. I was shot at, you

know, going to a pay phone in the early

90s in a van trying to go to a nightclub

with a bunch of people and these guys

were walking towards me and they started

just blowing out the windows of the van.

I remember I didn't go to the nightclub.

I went back to my hotel and I woke up in

the morning with that chopped air, you

know, car glass all in my hair. I had

long hair back then. I had hair back

then, but Miami was, you know, it was

pretty wild in the 80s and early 90s.

>> I have a good friend of mine, my friend

Steve did his residency, he's an

opthalmologist, did his residency in

Miami in the 80s

>> and worked in emergency rooms and he

said it was [ __ ] insane. just like so

many gunshot wounds, so many drug deals

gone bad, so many heists.

>> He said it was like an insane place to

work.

>> It's funny you say that cuz I said to

all my characters, I said, "What's it

like, you know, having been in and out

of prison so many times." He goes, "Bro,

everyone in Florida's been in prison,

you know, and I was kind of like, what's

it like?" You know, everyone in

Florida's been in prison.

>> Sunny Place with Shady People, right?

Have you seen Cocaine Cowboys?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Phenomenal, right? And that

story where you find out that the entire

graduating class of the police academy

either wound up murdered or in jail for

corruption.

>> Yeah. Have you seen Bad Lieutenant?

>> Yes.

>> I'm friends with Harvey. He's he's good

in it, man.

>> Oh, yeah. No, it's a great movie.

>> But it's there's parts of this story

that are a little like Bad Lieutenant.

You'll see in the end, you know. Well,

what you'll you'll like about this

second episode about this period, it's

from the point of view of this young at

the time, you know, coming right out of

college, young DE agent, DEA agent on

the beat chasing bad guys and he was

assigned this guy Mario Trow. The case

that was a cold case, no one could ever

touch him and you see him kind of chase

after him and, you know, understand the

whole weaving of the story. But it's a

really, you know, being around that guy

was, you know, being talk about our the

subjects in this animal world, you know,

law enforcement.

>> This guy sleeps with a gun every night

and gets literally orgasmic with the

thought of this guy coming to his house.

>> There's like a hideway.

>> The guy the guy that he put in prison

for 100 years that got out. He literally

waits. And you'll see a line in the show

that it's kind of unbelievable what he

says about that.

>> Yeah. But just, you know, he lives in

this kind of We went to go see him. He

lives in this kind of very kind of, you

know, country part of West Virginia.

And um

>> and he's good with guns.

>> Good with guns. And he would just, you

know, he [snorts] would brag about all

the gunship, you know, the bullets you

can find from this, you know, left over

from the Civil War

>> in his backyard. And, you know, he was

very, very good with the gun. We did a

lot of shooting verite with him. and um

he was just a really at this at the time

very generous with his with his time

wanting to tell his story but you know

clearly killed a lot of people and would

make some very soft references to to

that that would be very unnerving you

know like yeah how you're really great

with I've never shot a gun he's I don't

have anything against it but I've never

shot a gun and I would talk to him about

it I'm interested in it and he'd be like

yeah I've had to use it a lot you know

more than I'd like to admit

So, you know, you're in these these

places. It's it's it's, you know,

>> but what's so peculiar about this guy,

his name's Larry Loveless. He was a DEA

agent in Florida back in those days. He

put this guy in prison, you know, you

know, bringing this guy was bringing a

lot of drugs from, you know, he was

Cuban and you'll see it in episode two.

But, um, he really just doesn't

understand how the guy got out of

prison. And the fact that the very guy

that put him in prison wouldn't know

that that they like the whoever the

powers that be that put got him out of

prison after 12 years. You would think

he would know, you know, but he's he's

still to this day worried worried about

retaliation.

>> Well, to be so this was what's what's

cool is that his dad was actually the

person he was like an HR person for um

kind of the Cuban it was at the time of

the Cuban uh Bay of Pigs, you know,

invasion, that kind of era. and he was

responsible for taking care of all these

kind of Cuban exiles uh during that time

and he would he was being the one that

was kind of going house to house and

giving people checks. Um so he had this

kind of very interesting network of

people and had this incredible access

and so what what they what was been

insinuated is that you know his dad had

these relationships and knew where

everyone was and knew all these people

and had information that was useful to

the government at the time. That's the

idea. Gave information. No surprise.

>> Or he helped bring down the real Pablo

Esco Escobar. Or he knew a big drug lord

that the government wanted. They made a

deal. Who knows? But it could have been.

There's lots of theories.

>> Quite an injustice though. Like even

this guy, you know, some, you know, we

filmed

>> 200 people over how long? 15 years.

Really? The last six was in was more

intense.

>> More than 200 people

>> and you you never get everybody in.

>> Um and I remember meeting this guy Tony

Biscaro. Remember him?

>> Yeah. He was the this guy was part of he

he flew planes for drugs. You know, he

got busted with like I think 600,000,

you know, pounds of weed at the time. Uh

he served the single largest sentence

for marijuana smuggling crime. 40 years.

40 years. Got out maybe five years ago.

And could you imagine coming out of

prison for the longest sentence and then

going to Miami and you see weed stores

everywhere? [laughter] You know what I

mean?

>> You're [ __ ] life's over. You see weed

stores. It's it's like insane to me.

>> That's [ __ ] up.

>> But but that was at a time look Pablo

Escobar like there were people around

Pablo Escobar that got indicted that was

that were trafficking ivory [snorts]

horns and stuff like it was very you

know there one degree of separation for

like wildlife crime and drugs in that

era.

>> Why do you think there's that

connection?

>> Easy concealment.

>> Concealment.

>> I mean look I don't want to exaggerate.

I think it there's been connections you

know like you can put cocaine inside of

a boa constrictor. who's going to open a

box at customs or you know fish and

wildlife service and look inside the boa

constrictor. So there's some pretty

ingenious ways to

>> meaning you put it in their stomach.

>> Yeah. Like you either like force feed

the boa constrictor like you know like

you put them in those balloons, you put

cocaine in or you even

>> and then you have to cut them open to

get your cocaine.

>> Yeah. You cut them open and get your

cocaine. But even but even more

>> I remember in New York when the fish

markets used to put drugs so casually

about that by the way but fish fish

markets used to put the drugs in fish in

the in the you know in the fish market.

Yeah because no one wants to handle the

fish and open up the fish and they shove

all the drugs into the fish. So you know

like smelly dangerous animals are good

cover for drugs

>> or or even more simply you know

trafficking wildlife there was a legal

version of that. So, what they would do

is take the crates and they'd pack them

and they'd put the drugs at the bottom

and they'd put, you know, another layer

of animals and they put some they'd

[snorts] mix in some, you know,

lookalike animals that were really rare

but looked like the common animal. So,

they'd mix them together and then they

put something like, you know, spitting

cobras up the top and no one was

reaching into the crate when there was

these like very dangerous animals.

>> Many. So that's how they kind of got

they they were able to to to prey on the

lack of resources at these kind of major

ports of entry and realized that fish

and wildlife didn't really have any

resources at the time.

>> They had limited wildlife inspectors.

They had to go through these, you know,

volumes volumes of crates and they they

play these games. Many Komodo dragons

that made it into this country came in

illegally in a crate and they would just

put a little Komodo dragon in with some

other monitor lizards and the inspectors

couldn't tell the difference and they'd

go through and the Komodo dragon that

bit Sharon Stone's husband Sharon

Stone's husband at the Los Angeles Zoo

is one of those Komodo dragons.

>> So it was somebody's private collection

and then they got released to the zoo.

No, it was in a sting that's in our show

where they were bringing in illegal

animals coming from a guy in Malaysia

who's sort of the Pablo Escobar, the

kingpin globally of all the reptile

animal trade. a guy that we finally

accessed after COVID who his name is

Anson Wong and he was sort of the you

know bad guy number one in the world for

reptile and animal smuggling and so he

was by Interpole and I'll you know

>> well he did the longest longest sentence

in the US for wildlife crime ever at the

time in the '9s um he was busted in

Mexico but and then brought extradited

into the US but he was bringing in

Komodo dragons and really rare reptiles

and the zoos were the beneficiary of

those reptiles once They were

confiscated. So the LA Zoo, San Diego

Zoo, Bronx Zoo, a lot of these animals

came from reptile smugglers.

>> Wow.

>> Very much the origins of collections.

>> Yeah. For zoos.

>> And I would also imagine that the kind

of people that are really into reptiles

probably also do drugs.

>> So they probably know a lot of people in

that world.

>> Yeah. It's like a cross-section of

metal. You got a Python.

>> So there's a lot of inked guys. There's

a lot of like goth guys into

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hot snakes, which are

the venomous. A lot of bikers.

>> Hot snakes.

>> Hot snakes.

>> That's what they call them.

>> Hot snakes.

>> The kind that can kill you.

>> Yeah, they're called hot snakes.

>> Interesting.

>> But yeah, a lot of badass guys and there

was definitely drugs. Listen, I did

drugs in my life. So,

>> no way.

>> Yes.

>> Come on. [laughter]

I'll go on.

>> I've done everything. I had nightclubs

in New York City for many years, Joe.

>> Yeah. I'm I'm like, you know, embombed.

It's made me live longer.

Maybe that's [snorts] what saved you

when you got bit by the rattlesnake.

>> I probably

>> um but you got to think that the type of

people that are going to be even

interested in having a snake as a pet.

That's a very unusual person.

>> I like snakes.

>> Yeah. I don't

>> Come on. You know people that have

snakes. Kids have ball pythons. You've

got kids. They like a a baby a ball

python. They're clean. You don't have to

feed it every day like a rabbit or a

dog. You can go on vacation, leave your

ball python. They're they're they're a

good pet. A lot of snakes. I don't think

of him as a pet. I think of as a monster

that you feed that allows you, you know,

it's not big enough to eat you, so it's

allows you to feed it. And then you have

to keep it in this box, which is kind of

weird.

>> Yeah. Well, that's why I like tortoises.

You don't have to keep them in a cage or

a box

>> because a does a snake they experience

discomfort because they're in a

terrarium. Listen, there's a lot of myth

out there that, oh, snakes can live in a

little teeny like sweater box or a shoe

box and you can put them in racks like

you see in snake stores and snake

breeders.

>> The truth is real snakes in the wild do

not live in little boxes. They may

>> go in underground at certain time of

year and hibernate. They may, but they

come out and they hang out like us and

they move around. And most snakes do not

live in a little teeny box. But yes,

they can survive in a box. But there's

all different kinds of snakes. There's

racer snakes and indigo snakes and

snakes that need to move fast and go

places and and then there's some snakes

like a ball python that can be in a more

confined space, but you can't

generalize.

>> But generally, like when people keep

them as pets, they keep them in in some

kind of an aquarium, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And they should they should give

them more space. They they should

absolutely give them more space. I mean,

part of what we're trying to do in this

show is try to tell people be

responsible. Don't treat reptiles like

disposable pets, like a toy that you

break one week and then you buy another

one and you break it and the parents buy

another one. You know, they're living

creatures. The death toll when you

import these animals is amazing. I mean,

so much mortality. And we don't talk

about mortality, whether it's zoos or

people bringing in these reptiles or

even myself over the years. You ask me

what happened to that snake. Probably

died. Probably was flushed down a toilet

by someone's mom.

>> You [snorts] know, you know, like baby

green turtles that you had as a kid.

Like what happened to most of those?

>> How long do snakes look? Like how long

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>> So the longest lived animal terrestrial

animal on the planet is a giant

tortoise. They can live almost 200

years. I have tortoises that are

overundred years old.

>> What about snakes?

>> Snakes generally most snakes don't live

more than 30 to 40 years. But there are

few that might lizards can live 70

years. Some of the big land iguanas can

live a long time.

>> Those like ones in Florida.

>> Uh they can live 70 years. I don't know

about green iguanas, but there are some

that can live 50 to 70 years. Some of

the big lizards, tortoises live the

longest. Some crocodilians give live a

really long time. Snakes live the least

the the less a lesser time of compared

to most of the other reptiles.

>> That was another thing that they found

in Florida in the Everglades. They found

Nile crocodiles

>> and they think that they might have a

breeding population. There's some

suspicion, but it's basically from

people having them as pets.

>> I've swam with Nile crocodiles. That's

no joke.

>> Why'd you do that?

>> I was in Madagascar. They have a form of

Nile crocodile in Madagascar. They don't

get quite as big as the mainland crocs.

And I was looking for turtles. And then

I saw the croc. Nile crocodiles and as

you know, saltwater crocodiles are the

two crocs that really kill the most

people. You know, people come and wash

their clothing next to the shore. You

know, the croc comes up and grabs them.

You know, you really got to watch it

with Nile crocodiles. So, if they're in

Florida, they're much bigger than

American crocodiles.

>> Yeah. They have a shoot on site order

for them or they did at least in this

article that I was reading. It's from a

while back.

>> I didn't know that. Wow.

>> They found a couple of them.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I know they've captured at least

two of them.

>> Well, the biggest reptile in the world

in terms of weight, back to our size

conversation, is a saltwater crocodile,

and it's neck and neck with a

leatherback sea turtle. They're both

over 2,000 pounds. So, you imagine a

2,000

>> leather back sea turtle is that big?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I had no idea. [laughter] That's great.

I I would have never imagined that a sea

turtle would have the same body weight

as a saltwater crocodile.

>> They're neck and neck two over 2,000 lbs

both of them. That's a big big turtle.

>> Well, I know that there there's legend

right about uh Congo crocodiles and that

there's crocodiles that people had

supposedly seen, you know, back in the

early 1900s and [snorts] the 1800s that

they thought were 40t long.

>> Yeah. And the thing about crocodiles is

I don't think they die of old age. I

think they just stay alive until they

die.

>> I want to be a crocodile.

>> And they keep getting bigger. That's the

other thing. Like depending upon their

food source and how much

>> Yeah. One I think in captivity they wind

up dying. But I think there's some

there's there's some thoughts as to why

that happens. You know, how they're

actually eating or they're getting fed.

What's the difference between the way

they live in the wild?

>> But there's some accounts from back in

the day where these [snorts] guys were

on a boat and the the crocodile was

bigger than the boat they were on.

>> Yeah. I mean, the thing about

crocodilians, and I I think there's

about 27 different types, but once they

get to a certain size, you know, they're

vulnerable when they're little, right?

Like birds and fish and things can kill

them and eat them, but once they get a

certain size, you know, like you're

saying, they're pretty much invincible.

Nothing can kill them, you know. And

some of them develop a taste for people.

>> Yeah. Just movement in the water and and

just because they're an ambush predator,

right?

>> Yeah. Well, they hunt people. Um

>> and they probably hunt people.

>> My friend Jim Shaki, he got hired to go

to Africa. Um I forget what country it

was, but he got hired to kill these

crocodiles because they were praying on

people. And while he was there, someone

got snatched up

>> while he was in camp. He said everybody

there had like missing a leg, bite taken

out of their calf. Everybody was all

[ __ ] up. I was good friends with Peter

Beard and he would go to Kenya in

Ethiopia and call crocodiles and there's

a really incredible photo of him inside

a crocodile that they killed and he's

like writing in his you know journal but

he's half his body is in a huge Nile

crocodile but he would go and call them

for probably similar reason as you just

said

>> once they start targeting villagers once

they find that there's a place that they

can hunt and get regular food they're

there all the time they they're so

sneaky that you What they developed was

they these people had put posts into the

ground in the water. So into uh the the

the area where they would wash their

clothes and gather food. They

essentially built like some sort of uh

containment area where the Crocs

couldn't get through these poles. So

what the Crocs did was go around the

poles and into the water. So they had

figured it out.

>> Smart.

>> That's creepy. That's creepy. where they

they they realize like, oh, the people

go like they must have been watching and

realizing, oh, the people go into this

area, so I got to go on the ground at

night and then I'll go back under the

water and then I'll catch these [ __ ]

slipping.

>> And they're patient. They can wait

years. Intelligent.

>> They can wait a long time before they

eat anything, you know.

>> Yeah. They don't have to eat for a year,

right?

>> A big croc. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Are they intelligent?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, they they're one of the few

reptiles that actually really does

defend their babies like, you know, like

a snake. A snake doesn't do that. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Wow. That's amazing. What a dinosaur,

man.

>> What is that? A saltwater or a Nile?

>> Says saltwater crocodile. Is this in

Australia?

>> In Australia.

>> Wow. That Wow.

>> Those things ran the whole world at one

point in time.

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah.

>> It's just weird. There's still creatures

like that roaming around, you know?

That's a throwback. And there's some

really endangered crocodiles. And you'll

see in our show, I think even episode