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from New York Times opinion this is the

Ezra Klein

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show hey it is Ezra so we are working on

a bunch of other episodes about Israel

Palestine and we also have some great

shows that were recorded that were

supposed to come out with my book leave

had lasted as long as I had intended for

it to last on some other topics and

we're going to be releasing those as

events weren so this one felt important

to do right now it's between my

colleague Carlos Zada and McKay cins on

Mitt Romney McKay of course wrote the

big new Buzzy Romney book that is out I

think it shines some important light on

what the Republican party has become and

what that has meant for people who just

a couple of election Cycles ago were

literally the Republican party's leaders

watch watching Romney closely and seeing

what has happened to him and then where

he has moved in

response I think is a really interesting

way to understand actually how far the

Republican party has shifted even though

it is still called the same thing so I

think there's a lot of insight here and

I hope you enjoy

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it it's a weirdly fitting moment to

examine the life of Mitt Romney Romney

has been a governor and a US senator as

a member of the Republican party he was

even the party's Presidential nominee

and yet what he may be most remembered

for is the moment when he broke with the

GOP in February of 2020 Romney voted to

convict Donald Trump in his impeachment

trial on the charge of abusing his power

by attempting to persuade Ukraine's

government to investigate the Biden

family in that moment Romney became the

first senator in US history to vote to

remove a president of his own party from

Office McKay cins a staff writer at the

Atlantic goes deep on that decision and

many other Romney has faced and his new

book Romney a reckoning the book is in

part the product of dozens of personal

interviews as well as access to the

Senator's private journals emails and

text

messages at a time when the Republican

party took weeks to even choose a house

speaker and when it seems eager to

nominate a twice impeached and four

times indicted former president as its

standard Bearer Romney's story feels

retro he's the consumate

institutionalist in an anti-

institutionalist party and yet what's

fascinating about coin's book is that

the author pushes Romney to wrestle with

his own role even his own complicity in

what his party has become as always you

can email the show with your thoughts

and guest recommendations at Ezra

kleinow atny

times.com McKay cins welcome to the show

thanks for having me so I have to read a

lot of political Memoirs and political

biographies by journalists and

historians for my job what I love about

this book is that you've written a book

about the evolution of Mitt Romney right

his principled stands his his implicit

compromises along the way but it's also

a book about the evolution of the

Republican party and there's some

jaw-dropping moments here and there that

I I want you to explain in Greater

detail but first let's start with some

Basics so the book is Romney a reckoning

but I feel like there's multiple

reckonings going on in the book what

what reckonings are you focused on it's

a good point and I I think that

that subtitle was deliberately sort of

multifaceted right perfect yes because

the way that this book began was that I

had covered Mitt Romney for a while I

had covered his 2012 presidential

campaign I covered his speech at the

Republican convention in 2004 when I was

a senior in high school so I could say

that I've been covering bit Romney for

almost 20 years um if you go back to my

before it was uncool yes exactly that's

that's exactly right but you know I had

profiled him for the Atlantic and um I

had kind of stayed in touch with him and

after January 6th I could tell that he

was kind of going through something

there was a a kind of Reckoning

happening he was grappling with

difficult questions about what his party

had become what was happening to the

country and I sensed though he didn't

make this explicit at first his own role

in all of this right like whether he had

played a role

inadvertently in allowing the party to

get to this point and so when I

approached him I basically said I think

you might be in unique position to be a

really interesting subject for a

political biography I only want to do it

if you're ready to kind of fully tell

all the stories right be candid be

straightforward not protect your future

reelection or or whatever and he very

luckily for me sort of took that as a

challenge and started giving giving me

his journals and his emails and

obviously in the last few years he was

known as this guy who was courageously

standing up against Trump and was sort

of one of the last remaining bullworks

against you know the spread of trumpism

in the Republican party I knew that was

going to be a crucial part of the story

but how he got to that from being kind

of known as a cautious calculating

politician was the story I was sort of

most interested in at first I want to

get into that sense of his personality

right that he was this cautious

calculating guy you have a great

description early on of M you call him a

walking amalgam of Prep School manners

and Mormon niceness and the practiced

cool of the private Equity set right

which just like stuck in my head as like

yeah that's Mitt Romney but you also

raised something else that I hadn't

thought about in connection to Romney at

all and that is his anger right there's

more than a few moments when you talk

about sort of his you know this deep

well of anger his temper he has to

control when does that manifest itself

and where does it come from that

actually was something that I was

surprised to learn about because the

couple moments that we've seen him be

angry in public are sort of notable for

how out of character they seem right I

mean one of them is on the senate floor

on January 6th uh standing behind Josh

Holly as he's giving this speech and

there's this kind of famous clip of Mitt

Romney sort of GL staring at him from

behind two masks that he's wearing what

I learned from talking to him and from

reading his journals and talking to

people around him is that he does have

this temper it was one of the early

impediments to his kind of ability to

win political debates as a candidate so

when he was running for governor he

would uh do these mock debates with his

advisers he hated them because in part

he had smart advisers like Beth Meyers

who in Massachusetts kind of became his

right hand and she realized I'm going to

try to get under his skin in these mock

debates and see what happens and he

would get so angry she would you know

Trot out these like attack lines one

time he threw his notes on the floor

another time he said well if that's what

it's going to be like there's no way for

me to win we shouldn't even bother he he

would he would really get you know kind

of angry and you know I think part of it

comes from his lifetime of privilege and

wealth right he grew up in a kind of

bubble where he wasn't challenged that

often he also has sort of a quasi

aristocratic conviction in like manners

and propriety and he feels like when his

sense of propriety is being violated by

somebody else it really makes him mad

there's like an indignation to it it's

an indignation and that and that's kind

of what what was interesting about him

as a character is that he has this

righteous indignation but he can he can

also be kind of judgmental of people and

and loses temper and it doesn't always

manif EST in sort of a flattering way

you had an enormous degree of access to

Romney just like his Trove of emails

those private journals are amazing right

why do you think he was ready to do this

and why do you think he was ready to do

this with you I think it was a couple

things I think he realized he was at the

Twilight of his career right for so much

of his political career he was focused

on becoming president one day right and

he now knows that's never going to

happen so that that's part of it being

freed from the constraints of trying to

become president that matters he also

was increasingly isolated in Washington

and alienated from his party something I

learned about Mitt Romney is he really

is a team guy like naturally he wants to

be part of a team he cultivated this

close Inner Circle of advisers that

stayed with him for decades you know

he's a partisan in the sense that he

wants to pick a side and then be with

that side in some ways but he just

couldn't get on board with the Donald

Trump era of the Republican party and

because of that felt increasingly

isolated and and um was therefore not

buffeted by the Machinery of partisan

politics that would prude you from yeah

that would prevent him from kind of

telling me these stories right he didn't

really care what Lindsey Graham told him

in the caucus meetings or if joshh hly

would get mad at him like you know I

think that was part of it but I will

also say like it's not like he kind of

arrived as a subject fully ready to to

go this far it was a 2-year conversation

over 50 interviews that took sometimes

me just kind of patiently listening

sometimes me needling him a little bit

challenging him he also I mean to his

credit put in a lot of time considering

and reconsidering questions that I asked

um sometimes he would come back to me a

week later and say ah you know you asked

me this last week I don't think I fully

answered you and he'd have kind of more

thoughts but the other thing that's

happened is that Mitt Romney I write

about this throughout the book is is a

person who has had a very keen sense of

his own mortality for a long time and

this goes back to you know a car crash

that he was involved in as a Mormon

missionary as a young man but especially

I think now he he's convinced that he

only has at most 12 years left be and I

I don't I mean it sometimes these

conversations would take morbid turns

where I really didn't know how to to

respond but the men in his family have a

history of sudden heart failure his

father is the one who lived the longest

of any of them and he died at 88 so he's

convinced he has at most 12 years left

but he's thinking more about how he'll

be remembered and less about how you

know whatever he'll do will play in the

next days you know new cycle you use

this term a few times the Romney

obligation M what is that Mitt Romney

has this kind of story that he tells

about his family which is that the

Romney's have this kind of overdeveloped

outsize sense of obligation to run

toward a crisis and to try to solve the

problem that when they're called upon or

not even if they're not called upon but

when there is a crisis that needs to be

addressed they feel like they need to be

there and and uh and be in the middle of

the action even when it's risky and even

when it's unpleasant and he saw this in

his father he has stories going back

through his genealogy of you know

various uh forefathers who also had this

and he feels a strong sense of

obligation which has manifested in

various ways throughout his career I

mean one of the most obvious is his

takeover of the Olympics in Salt Lake

City right that took he was at this time

was on Pace to become a billionaire

instead is convinced by uh his wife an

and and a couple of other friends that

the Olympic Games in Salt Lake City were

in crisis there had been kind of

scandals around financial mismanagement

and bribery allegations and you know

advertisers were fleeing and he decided

Well you know like somebody needs to

turn this around it needs to be me and

he he walked away from really a lot of

money he could have made a lot more

money instead took this and and that was

kind of the argument that that an made

to him you know what do we need more

money for we have all the money we could

possibly want and he went and took this

kind of thanless job that ended up

propelling him to uh the Massachusetts

governorship but one of the most

revealing things I found in research

about this period was a quote that an

Romney gave the Boston Globe at that

time which is somebody asked why why is

your husband doing this you know why

moving across the country to Utah to

take over these games and she said he

loves emergencies and

catastrophes W which you know I I asked

him about and he kind of admitted that

on the one hand there's this strong

sense of obligation on the other hand he

also has an adrenaline rush when there's

a high stakes problem to be solved that

he can't really get anywhere

else you mentioned his father you

dedicate a lot of time to George Romney

who seems by far to be the biggest sort

of influence looming over mit's life and

often it's this kind of

inspirational presence but in some ways

it also felt like a little reproachful

like mitt is aware of the moments when

he's not living up to George's Legacy

how does George Loom over mitt the way I

think about it as I've spent time with

him and and George comes up all the time

in our conversations in his journals all

the time in the book it'sing I really

like I put a lot of George in there I

could put a lot more I mean there

there's a version of this book that it's

like a biography of the two of them

because they're so Linked In in midm at

least the way I think about it is that

he's both inspired by and at times

haunted by his dad's Legacy his father

was pioneering Auto executive then

became governor of Michigan was then

seen as the likely next Republican

nominee for president and Happ happened

to be running at a time when the

Republican party was taking its

rightward turn where you know you had

Richard Nixon's campaign running the

southern strategy white grievance became

an incredibly important uh part of the

the new and emerging Republican

Coalition but what makes George Romney

so admirable is that he kind of

emphatically stood against the rising

tide of racism and white grievance and

refused to to indulge it and in fact

pushed back against it in ways that were

pretty politically damaging to him he

refused to uh you know condemn the

people who took part in the race riots

in Detroit while running as a Republican

presidential candidate and instead

delivered an address about how we need

to look at the root causes of these

riots and White America needs to look

within itself and he launched his

campaign with a tour of the American

ghettos speaking to the inner cities

posing with you know uh left-wing

radicals arguing that you know we can

find uh Common Ground his campaign ended

up melting down though because of one

interview that he gave a radio interview

in which he was asked about uh his

changing position on the Vietnam War and

George uh said that you know I I I went

over to Vietnam with a group of other

Governors and the generals brainwashed

me and what he was trying to say is

basically the American Military and uh

the state department were selling us a a

false story spinning him and we and we

got spun and now I've realized that I

got spun and I've changed my attitude

and now I'm against the Vietnam War but

that use of the word brainwashing became

a massive story Georgia's campaign was

actually already on the way down but it

was more the final nail in the coffin

but it was you know emblematic of

George's problem as a politician but

also his most admirable trait which is

that he just sort of recklessly said

what he believed and um what mitt took

away from that is both my dad was a hero

and the embodiment of Integrity in

politics and I wish that I could be like

my dad but also the way to get elect a

president is to do the exact opposite

George was great but he blew it but he

blew it and so what mitt took away and

and he really internalize this lesson I

made sure everyone in his campaigns did

too was we have to be hyperd disciplined

we have to stick to the talking points

we have to follow where our party's base

is and we're not going to try to

heroically change the mind of Republican

primary voters we're we're going to do

what's necessary to win he took this so

seriously that when he first ran for

president in 2008 he pulled a thesis I

believe it was a BYU Master's thesis but

somebody who had basically written about

why Georgia's presidential campaign

failed printed it out and had all of his

senior advisers read it that was an

amazing I couldn't believe he had done

that and but it shows how much George

kind of loomed over Mitt Romney

throughout his career yeah here it says

the title of the 88 page paper was

George Romney in 1968 from front runner

to Dropout analysis of cause I mean

imagine like everyone of the staff

getting this 88 page you know Master's

thesis about like here's why my dad lost

and let's not do that right right but

it's it's just important to understand

because for most of his career he

essentially def find his approach to

politics in opposition to his father and

really I think the way he sees his turn

during the Trump era is a chance to

finally reach for his father's Legacy

and and live up to it of course the

difference the major overwhelming

difference is that his father did that

when the stakes were the highest when he

was running for president and that's

something that mitt didn't do when the

stakes were the highest and you know

it's funny I think that haunts him a

little bit and this was one of those

things where I was always kind of

pressing him to think harder you can

tell you can tell in the book that he

and he goes back and forth on he does he

he you know some weeks he he in our you

know weekly interviews he would seem

like he was kind of confessing

complicity and you know the parties

capture by these kind of extremist

forces by indulging them or not standing

up against them but then the other

another week he'd be yeah but I think

that might be too far and he resisted

for a long time I mean there's one

important moment that I think listeners

to this podcast will think about which

is Mitt Romney accepted Donald Trump's

endorsement in 2012 when he was running

in the Republican primary they stood on

a stage together in Las Vegas had a

whole event built around it and this was

When Donald Trump was becoming a

right-wing political celebrity with this

kind of conspiracy theory about Barack

Obama not being American I want to come

back to that moment I love what he says

in the moment when he's up there with

Trump there there are some things that

you just can't imagine happening in your

life this is one of them uh being in I

love kind of witnessing other people's

awkwardness in real time you know and

that was just one of the most awkward

moments in American politics in recent

years how did Romney

rationalize that moment yeah so he you

know first of all convinced himself that

if Trump didn't endorse him he'd endorse

somebody else and it's better for the

party better for the country if he wins

instead of n gingr or Rick Perry God he

hated n some of the meanest quotes not

just in the book but that I've ever seen

one politician say about another are

about ni Gingrich um if if that's a plug

for future readers I don't um go ahead

no but like you know he saw himself as

running against kind of a clown car of

lesser Republicans and felt like he

needed to win which is a very common

rationalization in politics he also

believed that Donald Trump was not a

serious political figure right if Bill

Maher and Kanye West can to and and

endorse Barack Obama why can't I have

The Apprentice host who cares right but

the other kind of interesting wrinkle to

this is that as he spent time with Trump

at fundraisers and stuff throughout that

campaign he actually kind of liked Trump

you know that said that he sort of

enjoyed he enjoyed he enjoyed the

company he still thought of him as a

buffoon and he didn't take him seriously

as like a businessman or anything like

that and he thought his conspiracy

theories were insane they have this kind

of there's this one scene where m tries

to like very patiently and logically

talk Donald Trump out of the birther

conspiracy theory he's like no no no

what you don't understand about

constitutional liwes and like quickly

realizes that Trump like has completely

zoned out and he's like all right never

mind but in terms of just Trump as like

one-on-one you know guy who would call

him sometimes on on the campaign Trail

it was fun and and you know there I I

found this uh this journal entry from

2012 where he kind of M kind of Rapid

eyeses about hanging out with Trump and

says you know they just don't make him

like Donald Trump anymore and you know

he says he's entertaining and you know

lifts my spirits on the campaign Trail

or whatever which I think you know when

I brought it up with him you know I

could tell he was kind of chagrined by

it but he also you know said this does

speak though to how Trump has gotten as

far as he did with the party right you

get in the room with him and he's fun to

hang out with and he's charismatic and

gossipy and he seduces people and you

know also he didn't take him that

seriously though but that's the thing he

didn't think of him as like certainly

anyone who would run for president he

just didn't he thought he was like a a

gly yeah he's a gadfly and who you know

like that's how he rationalized it this

was though one of those things that I

think like even now as he went through

this whole kind of Reckoning process we

still I think you know somewhat disagree

on on where he landed because as much as

he's embarrassed by it and retrospect in

as much as he you know wishes he could

take it back he just fundamentally

doesn't believe that accepting Trump's

endorsement and kind of welcoming him

into the campaign in 2012 had that much

effect on Trump's ultimate rise to power

forer I think it's hard to say but I

think there's more of a case than Romney

will acknowledge I think that standing

on that stage with him and making him

part of the Republican campaign

apparatus in 2012

introduced him to a lot of people in the

party and I think just make gave him a

little credibility I think Romney has a

plausible case that like he ended up

winning in this like riding this crazy

once in a generation populist wave and

maybe that's true but Romney won't fully

say I am you know responsible for

Trump's

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rise

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there's an idea that comes up a lot in

the book it's

rationalization and you see it

throughout mids life in different key

moments especially in in the political

realm when did you first begin to

understand that that would be a real

theme of this book it's interesting

because I both saw him doing it in real

time and also listen to him discuss his

own impulse to rationalize and so it

became clear to me pretty early on that

this would be an important theme of the

book it was also frankly part of what

made the book timely and interesting to

me because I think we are at this moment

moment in American politics that we

would not have gotten to if not for

hundreds of maybe thousands of people

rationalizing things that were in their

self-interest so to answer the question

more directly mitt I had heard him tell

student groups or his staff if there's

one piece of advice I can give you now

with all this hindsight that I have the

benefit of now it would be don't

sacrifice your principles at the altar

of ambition it's it's not worth it

there's this a l of this like believe me

I know it's not worth it kind of like

there's an acknowledgement that that's

something he did absolutely and and in

fact that was one of the early

conversations we had I asked him you

know I've heard you say this a bunch of

times can you give me some examples of

when you did rationalize something in

your own self-interest or sacrifice your

principles and that became the beginning

of a long running conversation that kind

of ran over the next two years because

he started with he had some immediate

ones that came to mind um you know and

not all of them are I acted more

right-wing than I was in fact when he

was running for Senate uh in

Massachusetts and in uh for governor of

Massachusetts he told me I pretended to

be pro-choice when I really wasn't right

and he he walked me through in kind of

fascinating detail how he rationalized

the position that he took right he dug

into like Mormon uh you know discourses

on the issue is and looked for loopholes

that he could find and really convinced

himself that it this was an okay

position to take but then you know later

there there were a bunch of times when

he was running for president where he

acted you know like he had these

right-wing positions that he really

didn't and part of it for him was that

he is not somebody who actually I I I

think he did he disagrees with me

slightly on this but I write in the book

that he's not somebody who takes places

a high premium on

unwavering dedication to certain policy

positions like he thinks that on most

issues there are a range of reasonable

positions and what really matters is the

execution and I think implicit to that

is if it helps me get closer to the

White House taking one position over

another what's wrong with that very

pragmatist I mean and I think that's

part of you know why he was always

tagged with this like

flip-flopper attack because he he

ultimately just that's not he's not an

ideologue he doesn't have a firm set of

policy positions I remember Anne

Romney's convention speech when it

wasn't about his beliefs as much as like

no one will work harder than Mitt Romney

you know like it was it was it was

basically saying he's just going to

outwork everyone you know because that's

the kind of guy he so like what kind of

Republican was he and then what Persona

formed as you put it I think naturally

you know coming up from where he came

from in Michigan and watching his dad he

would have described himself in the

early 2000s as probably a moderate

pragmatic Pro bus Republican right whose

Forte was budgetary issues fiscal issues

and uh stimulating you know job growth

in his State and hopefully in the

country right that in ' 08 when he

started running he thought of himself S

as like this is I I you know I'm going

to make the campaign about the things I

want it to be about right it was I had

this kind of quaint idea that you know

the presidential campaign should be

about the biggest issues that you know

that affect Americans and and it's going

to be about what what I I think is

important and what he very quickly

realized on those stages was that that's

not how you win a Republican primary

that's not how you win a you know

presidential election you you end up

having to sell yourself out little by

little and reshape your pers Persona and

I don't think that everything about him

as a 2008 presidential candidate was

false but I do think he was responding

to crowds and he kind of positioned

himself as the reaganite right-wing even

kind of culture Warrior because that was

the path for him in that in that primary

race and it came off as an authentic

that one of the most interesting uh

things that I found in his emails was a

um a long thread among his like way too

many republican political Consultants

who were working on that 2008

presidential campaign where it was

toward the end it LO it was clear that

McCain was going to win Romney was going

to have to drop out soon and so it was

now like recriminations among the

Consultants blaming each other for blame

game this is why the why the campaign

didn't work and what was really

interesting is there was a contingent of

Consultants who were saying we need to

do more to position him as the heir to

Reagan he he's you know claimed the

reaganite conservative mantle and then

steuart Stevens who uh was his longtime

adviser said the problem with that is

that he's not a movement conservative

and people can tell he comes off as

inauthentic when we position him that

way we need to stop doing that so there

was this kind of like tug OFW between

these two sides I think in 2012 when he

decided to run again he got to run the c

a campaign that was closer to what he

wanted it to be about because economic

issues work top of mind

but you know still there were all kinds

of moments in that campaign that he

wishes he could take back it's a moment

I think it's the 2012 campaign where

Romney still thought that this campaign

could be about principles and expertise

and competence and steuart Stevens is

like no this campaign like where the

party is right now this is about

identity and tribalism and grievance and

if we're going to win we're goingon to

have to steal this nomination like that

was a remarkable statement because I

think that there were there instances

where Romney is still thinking that the

budget you know like he was like the tea

party is really about fiscal discipline

you know like like I'm like what like

for real are you for real you know and

and even his and steuart Stevens is like

no that's not what this is about at all

you know and so 2012 felt like that sort

of hinge moment where where sort of mitt

didn't

quite understand or didn't want to

understand what the party was become

like people people say that it's

remarkable that after Barack Obama the

country like Donal Trump I think it's

even more remarkable that after Mitt

Romney the Republican Party nominated

Donald Trump you know like that that

transformation the most polar opposite

kinds of candidates right uh with polar

opposite World Views in a lot of ways

the same party and the same party and a

lot of the same vot I mean obviously

most of the same voters that idea that I

I titled that chapter Heist because that

really was Mitt Romney's campaign's

approach to the 2012 primaries was the

only way we win is by stealing this from

voters who really don't like Mitt Romney

right he's a Mormon in a overwhelmingly

kind of Evangelical primary base he's a

uh Massachusetts moderate in a very

conservative uh you know party and the

only way we're going to escape here is

sort of through like redirection and a

misdirection and trying to take voters

Minds off his various deficits and and

you know you know he ended up pulling it

off he won the nomination by the skin of

his teeth um but in the process I think

did so much damage to himself that it

was hard to then win in the general

election against Barack Obama why do you

think he wanted to be president is it

just the Romney obligation just like I'm

the guy who can fix things there's a

great scene when he's he's mad at his

campaign staffers for not coming up with

like a message right he's like Obama has

this whole like you know move forward

thing you know makes me look backward

like that's really smart where's my

message you know like I'm like the

message should come from the top right

like don't you have an idea why you want

to do this he thought of the kind of

lofty campaign message as just like

another thing you could Outsource to

your Consultants right and like the

reality is like the reason you're

running needs to come from the candidate

right yes the Consultants can help you

dress it up and come up with the slogan

but like you need to have the reason and

I think the reason they struggled with

that was because ultimately his reason

for running was that he just thought he

was better than everybody else at fixing

fiscal issues right like and that's just

not like a it's not a rallying cry it's

not hope and change it's like you know

put the consultant in charge for four

years he'll turn things around but the

thing is that was genuine it's

interesting his most active period of

Journal keeping was in the 2012 campaign

and I think it's because he thought he

had a pretty good shot at becoming

president he wanted to be you know ready

to write a presidential Memoir one day

if he needed to and so he kept a very

detailed day-to-day Journal which

started out in sort of travelog form

where it was like I had these meetings

went to this state whatever and then

quickly became a medium for like venting

and catharsis like at the end of a long

day he it was great for me at the end of

the day he would he would take out his

iPad that's where he would write and

just kind of write all his frustrations

with his primary candidates and his

staff and Barack Obama and you know

super interesting stuff there but you

could detect in those journal entries a

genuine desire to help people I mean

part of the the kind of campaign

apparatus was like they would bring out

these people whose small businesses had

been destroyed or who had lost their

homes and so he spent basically that

whole year meeting with people who were

really struggling in the aftermath of

the 2008 recession and he really felt

for them and he knew that he couldn't

really like in public because it would

come across as phony and he wasn't that

kind of politician but he did feel for

them and and he this is kind of the

difference between people like him and

and me frankly is that he has just this

enormous outsize confidence in his own

abilities like he really believed that

he could fix the US economy if he was

just given the chance not only that he

could that he was the only one the only

one who could exactly exactly I remember

I was reading this book and I I turned

my my wife at one point I was like I

know why M Romney wanted to be president

he just thought he'd be really good at

it you know like like like that was you

know that was kind of

[Music]

it

[Music]

there's a moment much earlier in the

book that is another one of those

jawdropping moments he's talking to a

group of you know Evangelical leaders in

South Carolina he'd been kind of

realizing that like people think

Mormonism is kind of weird and maybe

this is hurting me and then one of these

guys says to him flat out like if you

become president you will kind of

normalize Mormonism and therefore more

people will go to hell yes and not like

go to hell is a metaphor you know he

means like go to hell Capital H and I I

kept wondering you know to what extent

did he come to conclude it was a

hindrance overall in his political

Ambitions but to what extent did it also

drive him it's interesting for all of

the flip-flopping he's accused of and

all the kind of disposable policy

positions that you know he's

demonstrated throughout his life that

his faith has been non-negotiable from

the beginning right he had advisers in

2007 when he was running for president

the first time who said you know why

don't you just say

Mormonism is part of my Heritage it's

you know a speech of minimizing it right

like why don't you just say like it's

not really you know I'm a Christian you

know but like Mormon stuff is just kind

of part of my my family history and he

was like that no way that's not

happening even as he was having these

conversations with Evangelical power

Brokers and ministers and voters who are

making very clear that for them it was

non-negotiable right like voting for a

Mormon to them there was no way and that

2008 primary was kind of traumatizing

for his family I mean I I interviewed

all of his I talked to all of his sons

and his wife and they have stories about

just some of the things people would say

to them on the campaign Trail in Iowa or

South Carolina it was kind of the first

time that they encountered kind of like

visceral anti-mormon sentiment from

people because they lived in that

Community for so long they liveed in

Massachusetts where there's not a lot of

Mormons but it's also a pretty like

Progressive inclusive place I I know

this because I grew up as a Mormon in

Massachusetts and you would get the

occasional polygamy joke or whatever but

it was really just you know first of all

mostly secular and people just didn't

really care that much about your

religion in places like Iowa and South

Carolina people care a lot about your

religion and on the one hand he wasn't

going to disavow his religion but he

also had to keep seeking the

endorsements and votes of these people

who manifestly hated his religion and

it's a you know strange kind of

indignity of politics that I think a lot

of candidates are called upon to endure

I mean I think of Barack Obama certainly

you know campaigning in 2008 like in a

country as diverse and pluralistic as

hards like we ask our candidates to

endure a lot and there's another scene

later in the book where he goes to the

values voters Summit and he has to speak

right before this guy Brian fiser who's

like a you know raging like anti- Muslim

homophobic guy who's also said you know

terrible things about Mormons and Romney

finds out that he's speaking right

before him and decides like I need to

push back against this rhetoric and adds

a couple lines to his speech pushing

back against it it gets a terrible

response in the room he ends up L coming

in near last place in the straw pole at

the Val's voters Summit and he writes in

his journal afterward this is my seventh

time coming to this Summit smiling cuz

it'll be my

last and it kind of gives you a sense of

just like how much he hated that part of

of campaigning and yet in a generic

sense wouldn't like values voters be

mids people that's what's so ironic

about all of this like a Mormon

Republican is about as value Centric as

you can have and he lived a life where

he was you know father of five doting

husband never been any controversy or

Scandal about his personal life doesn't

drink doesn't smoke you know like he

should have been the model candidate for

these people but because of their their

theological differences they just

couldn't get past it it's interesting to

me how clearly Romney despises

campaigning like throughout the book he

hates Iowa and then he's like when he

has to go back to Iowa again he's he's

so miserable you know like in some ways

he's such an awkward fit for politics I

remember there's a great moment early on

which like talk about like what if

scenarios you know where he's in college

and he thinks he wants to get a PhD in

like English literature he wants to

study Steinbeck and Dickens for the rest

of his life and some Professor is like

you'll be so poor just like go to

business school you know you'll have

plenty of time to read books yeah like

go to law school or business school

chose one of those of course you went to

both yeah but I mean I I do think that

speaks to like Romney very at home in a

conference room a boardroom right I

think would have probably enjoyed a life

of you know reading books and and

teaching he's really not at home on the

campaign Trail and in fact he he's now

pretty self-aware about it there's a

funny moment I I don't actually think

this is in the book but where he was

watching Ronda Santa campaign uh early

in the the current primaries and he told

me um you know that guy looks like he's

getting ready to go to a you know dental

appointment or something and then he

kind of paused and said kind of reminds

me of myself actually oh my gosh he he

just he never liked it he knows he's

awkward he can feel himself being

awkward he but he also the other thing

is that like some of it is people assume

a level of inauthenticity that actually

isn't always there you know when he ran

for governor in Massachusetts they ran

this ad called an that was about his

like Teenage romance with an and his

like doting affection on his wife and

voters hated it and they pulled it like

very quickly because he came off as like

plastic and too perfect and fake and

people are like there's no way that's

real it actually was real that is what

he's like with an and what he said to me

is I guess I'm I'm the candidate who's

authentically inauthentic he comes from

a long line of wife guys he uh the the

Romney men R the Romney men love their

Wes performatively but also

authentically last night in preparation

for this conversation I I watched um I

watched several old Mitt Romney speeches

and one of the ones I watched was his

2016 speech denouncing Trump right he

almost seemed like he was having fun and

let me put it very plainly if we

Republicans choose Donald Trump as our

nominee the prospects for a safe and

prosperous future are greatly diminished

but you say wait wait wait isn't he a

huge business success doesn't he know

what he's talking about no he isn't and

no he doesn't he's got this little smile

half the time he like waits for people

to laugh it his on liners you know like

sometimes they don't sometimes they do

but he just he absolutely eviscerates

Trump Donald Trump is a phony a fraud

his promises are as worthless as a

degree from Trump

University so given that how on God's

Good Earth does he take the meeting to

become Trump's Secretary of State it

just seems like such a contrast to

everything he'd been doing he'd been

like behind the scenes machinations

trying to like get Cruz and Rubio and

Kasich to figure out a plan I mean he'd

been doing everything he could you know

he decided this guy was this pernicious

force a con artist dangerous to The

Republic and then like well you know but

maybe I can go work for him like how did

he come around to that process I see

that offer or kind of the dangling of

the secretary of state job in front of

Romney as sort of The Last Temptation

for Romney right um like he he had taken

this you know defiant stand against

Trump and really reamed out his

Republican friends who got on board RS

prus at one point I write about goes to

Mid and says okay well now that he's the

nominee like can we get you on board and

he laughs and rs his face and says Trump

is nuts like won't do it so then Trump

calls after he wins and says we want to

meet with you about Secretary of State

actually Mike Pence calls him Mike Pence

calls him he also despises he also

despises Pence yeah he hates everyone M

mid holds grudges well he I said he's

judgmental um so I think a couple things

were going on there one was it's hard to

remember back then but the immediate

weeks after Trump won were genuinely

scary for a lot of people like it felt

like the world was going to spin off its

axis right like we've never had like a

truly just crazy person this is the view

of a lot of people in the Oval Office

like what what's going to happen during

that transition period during that

transition period there was a very

strong sentiment of we need adults in

the room like whatever you thought of

trump in his campaign we need to get as

many adults in the room as possible

there were a bunch of people who joined

the administration in the White House at

that time with the very explicit goal of

containing Trump and making sure that

the country stayed on on track right so

that definitely was part of it I think

and and that speaks to the kind of

Romney obligation right it's going to be

embarrassing if I do this but I I have

to do it and I should say I I WR about

how he got calls from multiple former

secretaries of State including Hillary

Clinton saying if they accept this job

you have to take it but there's another

side which is he wanted the job he

wanted the power he he there's a quote

in the book where he says to me you know

wanted to be president if you can't have

president secretary of state's a pretty

good you consolation price right and so

and he was he was cley about that with

me now that like he was tempted by the

the position and ultimately he wasn't

willing to do what Trump and his Camp

kind of demanded of him which was you

need to fully retract everything you

said about me and say that I'm going to

be an amazing president um he did he did

say he went as far as he could here's

the here's the here's the here's the

this is Page 189 so this is after he has

the meeting he comes out right and he he

speaks publicly he says what I've seen

through these discussions I've had with

the president with president-elect Trump

as well as what we've seen in his speech

the night of his victory as well as the

people he selected as part of his

transition all of those things combined

give me increasing hope that

president-elect Trump is the very man

who can lead us to that better future

now you put that statement alongside the

speech he'd given just months earlier

denouncing him in every possible way and

it's just hard to believe it's the same

guy y well once again I think the

rationalization Instinct kicks in right

he basically convinces himself I need to

be in this room I need to have this job

and so I'm GNA go as far as I can to try

to get this job and that that was his

kind of audition right he gives the

speech he gets a call right you know

shortly thereafter from Trump basically

saying that's not enough you need to go

further Romney can't go further and

that's ultimately where it falls apart

now subsequently people would claim that

Trump was never going to offer him the

job this was just to toy with Romney and

to embarrass him my reporting suggests

that's not true I think that Trump was

seriously considering him in part

because if he could get some of his most

you know vocal critics uh on board then

it he would look good but I think that

that that episode was sort of The Last

Temptation Romney had to join the Trump

train right and after that point after

he doesn't get it and then after seeing

what the first 100 days of the Trump

presidency bring he's basically fully

committed to being a republican critic

of opponent of Bull workk against

trumpism when Romney decides to run for

Senate he reflects on the Yates poem uh

the the second coming and the the the

best like all conviction while the worst

are full of passionate intensity did he

see himself as the best did he see you

know did he see the Trump crowd as the

worst like what what did that what did

that mean to him that that was the very

explicit reference to that that poem and

that line in particular was that the way

he described it to me is the Matt Gates

is of the world and you know the

Charlottesville Marchers and the very

worst elements of the Republican

Coalition are empowered and On The Rise

and the people who know that racism is

wrong and who know that authoritarianism

is wrong and who believe in the

Constitution and democracy and pluralism

are being silent because they're scared

and they don't know what to do and Mitt

Romney saw himself as somebody who could

come in and be a voice for those people

and and hopefully in his mind Empower

them to speak up you know he he still

thought let me get into the Senate I was

the nominee not that long ago you know I

was the standard bearer of the

Republican party let let me see if I can

get these guys to come back to their

senses and and speak up in defense of

traditional Republican values and that

ended up being a little more difficult

than he thought it would be of course

the other famous moment in that poem

right is um Things Fall Apart the center

cannot hold mere Anarchy is loosed upon

the world did he think of himself as

holding up the center or was he still

thinking of himself as a sort of

partisan the center I don't think he

meant the center of the political

Spectrum you probably saw it more as

like the center of the Republican Party

the the kind of mainstream establishment

of the party that's what he was

representing though this brings up I

think an important Point part of why he

Romney ultimately was able to kind of

find his voice in these last few years

is because the stakes of American

politics changed and the the terms of

the debate changed such that the things

that we were debating as a country were

not marginal tax rat

Orit ruction it was like do you believe

in you a pluralis society do you believe

in the Press freedom of the press do you

know do you believe in kind of these

fundamental things that weren't really

up for debate a few years ago and now

seemed like they were and Romney while

he doesn't hold strong partisan

positions on most issues does hold

strong positions on those issues and so

I think that's part of why he now seems

so kind of animated there's a moment

when when he's campaigning

and he's asked in a rally or in some

event you know so like so like are you

going to try to shut down you know CNN

and and the New York Times you know he's

like no no why would I why would I do

that like he still seems constantly

surprised he he's very generous with the

benefit of the doubt often he wants

to think the best of people and he wants

to assume that everybody has good

intentions I think it's why some of his

critics might say he was Ill suited for

this moment in politics because assuming

bad faith in people doesn't come

naturally to him but it is true that in

so that was when he was running for

Senate in Utah and it was actually a

clarifying moment for him because this

woman asked like what are you going to

do to shut down major American News

organizations and there was Applause for

that sentiment and it was kind of a

moment where he realized the trickle

down effect of Donald Trump as president

is that these Republican voters even in

you which was a state that was you know

for a red State pretty averse to Trump

in 2016 these anti-democratic ideas were

taking root among Romney supporters and

it made him realize how precarious this

moment was for

America one thing that really stuck out

at me is that once he becomes a senator

his relationship to rationalization

changes right you know you write that

you know maybe after so many years of

allowing the petty indignities and moral

compromises to pile up he'd finally

reached his limit also you say the path

to hire office was closed now moral

tests mattered more than they once did I

didn't know what to make of that because

in some ways it's great to see sort of

Romney Unleashed you know a senator you

know it's like his his his bullworth

moment he's just sort of saying what he

really believes right but to say that

well now that the stakes are lower right

now that I I won't be president I can

really say I think and that to me

conflicted with this other thing that

Romney says to you which is that he was

less pissed off at sort of True

Believers than he was at people who were

just kind of hiding what they really

thought you know and yet hadn't he been

doing that right if he's implicitly he's

he's he's admitting that he had because

he's saying well now that I'm in the

Senate now you know and now that sort of

any other high off is is closed off to

me now I can really kind of like say

what I think he might take issue with

this character as a but to me it's clear

that part of the reason he's so

judgmental of his colleagues who say one

thing in private and then take a

different position in public is because

he recognizes a little of his past self

in them right I think we're we're often

most judgmental of Those who commit the

sins that we know we commit right and I

think that that's part of what is going

on with him um but I mean implicit in

this whole project that he marked on

with me was the idea that he he

acknowledged he he hadn't been fully

candid or fully honest with himself

during those earlier years of his his

political rise and so I you know I think

you could ding him for that but it's

also true that as he's now taking stock

of his career he's being honest about

where he fell short and I think it would

be great if a lot more people would do

that I would by the way I'll just put it

out there if anybody else wants to uh

you know embark on a 2-year uh you know

therapy session with me and then let me

write a book about it I would love m

cins is available uh for regretful

politicians everywhere um he does say it

to you in a way that that sounds like

mitt Romy he says I think I recognize

now my capacity to rationalize decisions

that are in my self-interest yes there's

a power in the admission even if it's

kind of a late in life admission well

that and when he said that to me it was

when I asked him would you have taken

the same lonely principled vote to

impeach Trump if this had been you know

decades earlier and he thought about it

and I remember we were sitting in his

Hideaway his Senate Hideway off his a

little windowless room in the in the

capital and he thought really hard about

that and he gave me that answer which I

thought was you know kind of remarkably

honest you know um for for a lot of his

career he was able to do what he thought

he needed to do to win uh by convincing

himself that what was in his best

interest was also the right thing to do

so last night I also watched his shorter

2020 speech voting to convict where he

explains his vote to convict Trump in

the in the Senate impeachment trial it

is a remarkable speech it's so different

from the 2016 speech where he's

condemning Trump more broadly you that

speech was it was almost fun but this

speech it is somber it is emotional when

we talked about his faith he he chokes

up he has to stop serious as a senator

juror I swore an oath before God to

exercise impartial Justice I am

profoundly

religious my faith is at the heart of

who I am I take an oath before God as

enormously consequential

I knew from the outset that being tasked

with judging the president the leader of

my own party would be the most difficult

decision I have ever faced I was not

wrong it is a statement of high

principle I think it's a speech people

are going to remember more than his

convention speech or his campaign

speeches or that speech condemning Trump

I think that's that's the Romney speech

and one thing I was so struck by was

something that happened just before the

speech Ward kind of leaks out that he's

going to vote to convict he's going to

explain and he gets a call from his

former running mate Paul Ryan right and

the moment you bring that up in the book

I naively assumed that Paul Ryan was

going to be like hey mitt I heard you're

going to do this I'm sure you wrestled

with this it's probably a really hard

thing I just want you to know that like

I've got your back I'm here for you like

follow your

conscience but no no the call was like

Hey you know I hear you going to take

this principal stand do you really want

to do that like is that smart is that

Savvy should you like I was shocked by

and maybe I maybe my my expectations or

aspirations for Paul Ryan or for the

kind of running mate relationship were

too high but I just I couldn't believe

that that happened what did he make of

that call so I should say first mitt was

not the one who told me first about that

call somebody else

um in his orbit who knew about it told

me about it first and then I you know

brought it up with him and I brought it

up with Ryan too who who confirmed the

call not necessarily the

characterization but the essential

details the ten the fact that that's

what he yeah and that episode is so

interesting to me because it showed

truly how alone Mitt Romney was in that

and in that vote right running mate this

is his former running mate and somebody

he he really loves like a son in some

ways like he like Paul Ryan people

didn't want him to pick Ryan right Ryan

he liked Ryan he he respected him he

felt like they had a kind of kindred

spirit thing going ony wonkiness yeah

exactly the budget the budget yep and um

and even you know like he Paul Ryan

would have like Blended in with his like

Sons as like kind of a darkhaired

blandly handsome you know like uh guy he

really admired and respected Paul Ryan

to the point where he was much less

judgmental of Ryan's capitulations to

trust than he was of other Republicans

sort of convinced himself like you know

he was the speaker of the house he kind

of had to do what he he needed to do to

to get his agenda passed and but to have

this moment I think where Paul Ryan

calls him Paul Ryan wasn't the speaker

of the house anymore he wasn't in office

anymore he had really no reason to you

know whip votes for Trump so to do that

I think showed just how out on a limb

Romney was there's another moment right

before that where he tells his senior

staff Mitt Romney that he's going to

vote to convict and one of his senior

staffers she just puts her head down in

her hands and doesn't look up for the

rest of the meeting because she's so

like disappointed in him or disappointed

in what this is going to mean for his

you know place in the party and maybe

for her future you know career prospects

but like Romney was really you know did

not have a lot of allies in this vote

besides I should say his family which is

ultimately what I think booed him

throughout this whole process like in

fact there's a moment because he go I

have his journals from when he's

throughout that impeachment uh process

that trial and he's he's agonizing every

day over how to vote and every day he's

considering the evidence and he tells an

he calls an and tells her I think I'm

going to vote to acquit and she says I'm

surprised by that and she doesn't say

anything else doesn't you know no

renders no judgment doesn't argue with

him but he immediately is like oh I need

to go back to the drawing board because

he he so much of him uh his life has

been kind of dedicated to winning and

keeping an's respect um and to a lesser

degree but still important his his sons

and he he had talked it over with his

sons and his wife and they all supported

him in this but really not that many

other people did yeah it's interesting

how many things he tried to do behind

the scenes right to stop Trump in 2016

Al also in 2020 he approaches Joe

Mansion about forming a third party he

was very active uh in that in that

effort it's funny it's one of those

things whenever a republican kind of

speaks out against Trump the immediate

kind of cynical response from a lot of

people on the left is well why why

didn't you do anything about it you know

like word words are cheap you should do

something and I I understand that

sentiment there's been a lot of that

Mitt Romney is somebody who's actually

done quite a lot um not just you know

the famous vote to impeach but behind

the scenes you can as I kind of show in

this book he he was constantly hustling

to stop Trump um in both campaigns and I

think in the same is true in this

campaign as well so you conclude with

this scene about his father's obituary

right some years ago I think his

daughter-in-law gave him the New York

Times Book of the Dead Right which is a

a collection of of sort of notable Obits

the paper had run throughout its its

history and he says she knows I'm

fascinated with this stuff among the

hundreds of obituaries covering

celebrities presidents entrepreneurs and

civil rights leaders he looked for his

dads for Mid no man loomed larger in

history than George Romney he was an

icon a legend the embodiment of

Integrity in public service but George's

entry was nowhere to be found it

bothered him at first eventually he made

his peace with it even if history only

writes one line about you he tells me

you'd like it to be a good line and when

I read that it struck me on its own but

then later when I watched his his Senate

speech he ends with a very similar

sentiment to your final line in the book

he says um this is s speech when he's

explaining why he's voting to convict uh

Donald Trump I will only be one name

among many no more no less to Future

generations of Americans who look at the

record of this trial they will note

merely that I was among the Senators who

determined that what the president did

was wrong grievously wrong we are all

footnotes at best in the anals of

history but in the most powerful Nation

on Earth

the nation conceived in Liberty and

Justice that distinction is enough for

any citizen that distinction is like the

one line right you just want your one

line to be a good one so I have no doubt

that this book will go a long way to to

shaping how we perceive the the legacy

of Mitt Romney um I hope that um unlike

his own concerns he has many many more

years of life remaining but what do you

think the first line of Mitt Romney's

obituary will be I think history is a

ruthless editor I think that you know

the more distance that we have from his

life the less and less will be

remembered about it I do think though

that whether it's his obituary or

history books 30 50 100 years from now

if he comes up it will be for that

moment of conscience toward the end of

his political career that speech on the

CER floor I agree with you will be the

thing that if there's one scene that

people remember from Mitt Romney's life

and career it'll probably be that I

obviously think there's a lot more to

say about him I wrote a book about him

but like I think that if we could all be

remembered for eventually reaching the

best version of ourselves I think that

would be wonderful and I I I think that

that would be fair for him M this has

been a real pleasure we will end as all

episodes of this show end by asking you

for three book

recommendations

okay I've got the three recommendations

here um a mix of sentimental and uh

plugging for a friend and then a little

bit of self-indulgence so first um I'm

going to recommend the last politician

by Franklin fer my colleague at the

Atlantic just came out last month about

the first two years of Biden presidency

I think uncommonly well written for an

inside the White House story and

revealed things about the president that

I didn't know uh and kind of his

character that have stuck with me um

number two number the stars by Lois

Lowry this is a shout out to my fifth

grade daughter my oldest daughter who uh

read this book last year and it's a

about a Jewish family's escape from

Denmark during World War II she started

reading this book in school was obsessed

with it and said dad you have to read it

with me so that we can talk about it so

I started reading it with her and uh

lovely book like really uh just a really

touching story and I would just say like

also given current events like

understanding the the persecution of

Jews and anti-Semitism for a child to it

was a kind of a good opening point for

those conversations the last one I I

cheated but I feel like it's okay

because I've heard you you know I think

others have cheated on this this

question too it's actually three books

all on the same theme um the plot by

Jean H coretz hell of a book by Jason

mot and less by Andrew Shan Greer all

three uh novels published in the last

few years about writers embarking on

book tours um very different stories um

I've read less it's amazing it's very

funny and and you know heartwarming and

beautiful in some of them murders happen

in some of them uh existential crises

happen and some of them uh you know uh

moments of Enlightenment occur less I I

is the one I read most recently and and

uh could I just couldn't put it down I

read the sequel uh uh less is lost um

but as a author embarking on a book tour

I I'm now hoping that I have as uh

exciting an experience as these three

fictional

characters McKay coppins author of

Romney a reckoning thank you so much for

being on the show thanks for having me

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Carlos

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this episode of the Ezra Klein show was

produced by Roland who factchecking by

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original music by Isaac Jones audience

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Herrero