You have like a board meeting with your

agents. You're like, how's that product

going? It's very very good. Listen, I

think you need to cut down on cost. I

just be like, agent, run Facebook ads.

It's like, holy [ __ ] you know? Like

just like a human that that has never

done it before. And it's also just like

it's very rare you can find somebody

that can make good creative, that can

like actually run manage the ad account,

that can analyze the data, that like can

do all those pieces. [music] So it's

Like vibe coding from zero to 80% is

pretty cool. 80 to production [music]

and live is like a chasm and unless you

know what you're doing, basically

crashed out. I got banned from Etsy for

mining their They weren't stoked about

that. I still have a ban, which is

hilarious.

Oh, man.

Oh, my goodness. One of those days, man.

>> It's you.

I know. I know. You know, totally. Yeah.

I am I don't I don't know how you are

these days, but I am in the mode where

uh 4:30 a.m. my brain goes, oh, you

should fire up some Clyde code tabs.

>> Literally I'm like in the same I woke up

at 2:30 this morning and I was like, oh,

here I could go and have this graft

agent that like does this thing.

>> totally. Yeah. And then my you know, my

wife is like, what time did you get up?

I was up at 4:30 and here's what I did.

Here's what I've already had three

coffees. Like

>> [laughter]

>> It's ridiculous. Oh. We're talking to

this We're talking to We're in this with

this private equity company and they're

like, hey, we need to like source com

you know, business owners that are

wanting to sell their businesses. And

we're like, okay, cool. How can we do

that? And this is literally like this

morning. I was like, oh, I bet you I

could go and look at the site map

changes of like business sites, like

sell my business sites. And then from

that public information, like have Exa

basically be like this company is at

this location that is described like

this. And then find the LinkedIn profile

of the person and then cold email them

and it was like, yes, was the answer.

And so literally like built that agent

this morning for them, which was

ridiculous, but I don't think people

understand what's about to happen with

all this marketing agents. That is

crazy, man. But don't you don't you in

your brain a lot of times end up

becoming the GIF of like All right, wake

up, Jarvis. Let's go. Exactly.

>> Like, you know, and you just start like

moving stuff around. So good to see you

again, sir. What would you like to build

today?

Exactly. [laughter]

Exactly. Oh,

um

You know what's funny is when I was

looking back, so I want to get into

Graft. Yep. And and and the birth of of

Graft and

what I love about it and where you guys

are headed. But

funny enough,

I was looking at your background sort

of, you know, understanding

your your trajectory.

Um

I emailed you two years ago at Swell AI

and was like, I love it. It's great.

[laughter]

And funny enough, I had found you off We

just bought it back and we're like,

we're we're resurrecting it.

We sold it to an operator and it just

kind of went to a terrible place and

we're like, all right, we just our names

were still sort of connected to it and

we're like, pretty quick we're like, all

right, we need to get it back and like

refurbish it. So That's what has been

happening for like the last two months.

It's like it was one of the biggest

pains of, you know, of podcasting

is trying trying to figure all that out.

I I love the product. And funny and then

you and I were talking about Danny

Grant today and in the email that I sent

you two years ago, I said if I found you

off the exchange with Danny on X.

>> Oh, nice.

Small world, man.

Small world. We yeah, I want to hear

like so, you know, typically one of the

things we dive into that I love, you

know, I'm I mean I love Darius CEO and

Patrol and all this, but like but what I

really love to hear about is that like

the week you you have an aha and you're

like, oh, man, is this going to be the

thing? Like am I going to buy some

domain names and now that now this is

like this is what I'm doing now. Like

I'm putting everything into the, you

know, into this basket. You know, and

then the

>> bought trackable QR code.com cuz I have

no compulsion [laughter] control cuz I'm

like, all right, I'm just

I'm literally going to have an agent

build it like I'm going to have a graph

agent like go and like build the actual

product and then market the product and

just see if we can run it autonomously,

which is hilarious. just be like, how's

it going? You have like a board meeting

with your agents.

>> You're like, how's that product going?

It's very very good. Listen, I think you

need to cut down on cost. Yeah.

Totally. But you know, more honestly,

when I'm I'm thinking about companies,

it's like either like this is a problem

that I'm facing that like, you know, and

there's a certain amount of people that

have that same profile that this like

are, you know, they're also trying to

solve the solution for.

Or it's just like based off of search

intent. Like for example, that that

domain name, like the trackable QR code,

it's like getting I think it's like

1,200 searches per month and like it's

growing really rapidly. So I'm like, oh,

this is like a problem that people are

trying to solve. When you look at the

solutions that exist that that are

before them, it's like Bitly, right? Is

an example. Um they're not really

focused on that and then it's like, oh,

who's buying this? It's like restaurants

and like, you know, companies that are

sending um

uh like I didn't realize this, but um a

lot of

um like consumer packaged goods

companies are starting to put QR codes

on their products as a way to like they

have some offer that like takes the user

further etc. Yep. And so they need a way

to like a Ralph Lauren, you know, that

sort of has like this is exactly what it

is and and that's so great because you

think being able to just actually shoot

all the stuff in your closet. Totally.

Totally. I love it. Yeah. So anyway,

stuff like that is kind of my origin of

like when I'm like, okay, is this a a

brand or a company? And I think there's

like a bunch of different components of

the you know, different levels of this

of like you know, there's a fun

side quest thing and then there's like,

oh, this is like got the biology for

like a large company. And then I I think

that's just like a pulse thing. Like I

said, you know,

call myself an entrepreneur. I just

build businesses and like but

at its core it's like you you as you do

this more and more, you start to get a

understanding of the market and like

what actually has

you know, again, the biology to be a

large organization or what's going to be

like this can be a cool side project

that makes

whatever eight grand a month and It's

got legs legs enough to get to the

eighth floor, you know, or whatever,

which could be a good flip, but then

yeah, that's cool. Yeah, so I don't know

if that answers your question directly,

but

>> [laughter]

>> I and so funny enough going back, you

know, I want to go back to to sort of

like upbringing and you know, and and

and are there parts of your DNA and your

upbringing that sort of, you know, is is

built into this. One other small world

thing is I interviewed Tara. Oh, nice.

Cool.

on the podcast. So Max, my co-founder

and I, like we we met at Ruphae Health.

I was like employee nine or 10 and he

was right after me and so we basically

our my who who recruited both of us is

named Kobe Conrad. He's running his

company now called Sunflower Sober Now

and um but anyways, he

like you needed to meet Max. I think you

guys would get along and like

immediately basically like we were both

into techno and skiing, so we just kind

of became friends. I think that I

immediately like while we were still

working at Ruphae, Wait, are we best

friends now? Yeah, basically. Yeah, I

think we are. I mean,

he probably wants to kill me some days.

He's the better half, man, where like,

you know, I'm out here just kind of

running around on the marketing side and

he's the he's the Oh, my gosh. the slow

and steady on that he's the he's the

That's Martina. That's Martina on on on

that side. I'm the one like she'll show

me something that she just built and

it's amazing. And I'm like, oh, you know

what phase seven of this could be? And

she's like, you know what? Can we just

Can we stop? Yeah. Can we just hold on

for a second? Exactly, man. Exactly. So

like wait like, you know, where where'd

you grow up and and was there anything

in in your, you know, family dynamics or

or just in the way you were built that

was like, oh, I love figuring stuff out

and, you know, solving problems or like

where do you get some of those like

Puzzles and trend analysis was always

the things I was interested in.

Like give me a bunch of data, what does

all this mean and like how do I

synthesize it?

Um I studied economics in college. I I

think I asked like I was wanting to do

engineering and then

like finance, right? And then I was like

I was like basically that the thought

was, how do I make money and how do I

have a skill to sell? Um

And really like how does money work and

how does how do I have a skill to sell?

And then I ended up getting an economics

degree,

which makes zero sense, but Anyway,

yeah,

I mean background wise, I grew up in a

small town

in North Idaho called Coeur d'Alene.

It's now become super crazy popular

since the Kardashians went there during

COVID and it's basically like turned

into this,

you know, suburb of LA and San

Francisco, which is kind of funny.

But yeah, it's like an old mining and

timber town. My parents were like

My from LA originally and then

basically we're like, we want to get out

into nature. They were

both kind of dirt bags as I would

describe them, a little hippy. Um and uh

yeah, so we did that.

My

both of them are I build companies.

That's all I really know. I've like had

maybe

I've started more of the companies than

I've had jobs.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah. Yeah, I really got

>> actually shutting them down and like,

you know, doing all the like all the

paper trying to back out of Google

Workspaces.

>> [laughter]

>> We just rolled a bunch of credit cards

like recently for a bunch of stuff cuz

we're like, we don't even know where any

of this is. And so we're just like we're

like, cool, we're just going to roll all

of these and like just see what happens.

Whatever breaks, we'll go and fix and

then, you know, restart. That's good. Um

it's kind of funny. That was literally

like we did that like two months ago. I

I had to update a credit card this

morning that was like needed it for you

know, one of the one of the companies.

But

Anyways, um yeah, so started that.

Always was just kind of like buying and

selling stuff.

Um first uh

you know, in high school I learned how

to

do like graphic design.

Kind of taught myself Photoshop and

Illustrator and then figured out how to

do screen printing and then got a direct

to garment printer. And then I was like,

how do I sell things on the internet?

And then I ended up uh

figuring out how to mine Etsy for sales

data. At the time it was public, so you

could see the best selling products and

I was basically doing a script to do

extraction for that. And then I was

pulling that uh and we would remix the

best sellers uh based off of the target

keywords that they were going after. And

um then uh from there I was like,

"Cool." I was literally like running

this out of my basement and like we were

print you know

we were like 20 and making 10 grand a

month, you feel like God, right? Um

So that was happening and then I was

like, "All right, cool. Like how do I

not do the operations?" And so a couple

It's really early on print on demand and

basically rode that wave when that

happened. Um basically crashed out. I

got banned from Etsy for mining their

data. They weren't stoked about that. Um

I still have a ban um which is

hilarious. Uh I like to every year I'll

just try to like sign up and see what

happens, but all my stuff is fine. Um

But uh yeah.

>> Lifetime Etsy ban. I don't you know, if

you need to call me after we can talk

about it. Like you know, if

>> [laughter]

>> If you um But yeah, so from that um

uh But really honestly it was the best

thing that could have happened cuz

learned that like brand was such an

important thing that you need to be

building along with selling the product.

Um I you know, I was basically just

selling commodities which is chill, but

you know, you make money doing that, but

it's if you want to build like something

that has value that kind of compounds uh

brand comes from that. Ended up working

uh

uh I was just doing like honestly I

went into the fine dining uh industry

for a minute and was like working at

this uh hotel and was like I think I

want to do this. Like it was like so

intense and like very you know

It's very intense and it was the type of

I I kind of thrive in environments like

that. So there's this like

moment where I was like, "All right, I'm

going to go. This is like what I'm going

to pursue." And I could you know, you

could go and travel on that and that's

what I was interested in, but Anyway,

yeah. Um

ended up meeting

uh uh this boss though. His name's Jeff

Reynolds um and he'd gone through Y

Combinator and you know, done a startup

um

uh like basically went out into the

valley, you know,

made God came back and was selling it to

Fortune 500 companies. Here's how you do

like digital strategy and like adoption,

right? And so Nice. Um I basically went

and uh did some contract work for him

and he's like, "Cool, here's a test." I

remember it so vividly. It was like a it

was like a bathtub manufacturer. Like so

unsexy when you think about it as a

product and he's like I was like, "Yeah,

I think Pinterest will work for it. Like

I think you can like" they were trying

to launch this new like shower base that

was like a smaller model. And I was

like, "I think we could make like a

e-book that's basically like here's how

to do like a shower, you know, in your

van or your RV." Right? Cuz I was like

this like

>> Nice. way that they were trying to do

it. I was like, "I think Pinterest would

work for this." And he's like, "Awesome,

here's the test budget." And it was like

just a stupid amount of money and cuz

it's like this massive I mean they they

sell to like Holiday Inn, right? Like

that's like you know,

the scale like the scale that we're

talking about where they're like, "Cool,

we need like you know,

>> [laughter]

>> a couple thousand shower bases." It's

like you know, or

a hundred thousand shower bases or

whatever the the size of these end up

being. So anyways, yeah, I through that

um like

built this massively list on like

from Pinterest. He's basically like,

"What are you doing right now?" And I'm

like, "I don't know, man. I'm just like

kind of [ __ ] around." He's like, "If

you want a job, like come work for me."

Um

I was like, "Cool." And so anyways uh

That's really like where I cut my teeth

and learned B2B marketing. Like how do

you sell over long sales cycles? Like

how do you do account based marketing?

Like where are all these levers that you

can pull? I mean how do you like

service, you know, large organizations,

right? With these types of services. Um

so then like four years with him uh

doing that and uh

Yeah, just basically like

my job was here are these budgets. Like

these are the outcomes they want. Like

go and figure out like how do we do

distribution and you know, it's really

just like a

I was I lived in a studio apartment and

I just worked.

>> [laughter]

>> Um Yeah, so that's the that's the hacker

apartment lifestyle.

>> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And uh

Anyways, yeah, just did that uh and then

I I uh left this company. I was just

doing consulting. I was chasing snow for

the winter. I was actually living out of

a van at the time and uh with my my

friend and we were just like chasing the

storms on the West Coast. And uh my

friend Kobe called me uh which was uh he

was working at Rupa Health and um he's

like, "Hey, what are you doing now?" And

I'm like, "Nothing, man. I'm dirt

bagging." And he's like, "Do you want to

like come help me do this? Like uh you

know, at Rupa." Um and I was like, "No,

I don't

>> [laughter]

>> I don't want a job, right? Like I'm I

don't want to do anything. I'm just I'm

you know,

I'll talk to I'll talk to you later,

right? Basically. He's like, "Let me

send you the data and you can see like

you know, what the the composition of

the company looks like from a growth

standpoint." So he sent me the data and

it was just ridiculous, right? Like it

was like a curve that just looked

stupid. And I mean it's the the the the

best curve that you can have where it's

like like slow incremental month over

month growth with like 3 to 4%

compounding. And then like you know,

this massive curve and I'm like, "What

did you do?" And he's like, "I turned on

ads, Cody." I was like, "Holy shit." And

so I literally I was like he sent me

that on a Friday. Um on Sunday I was

like, "I'm in. I'm in now." And uh yeah,

I was like again still living like in

the van at the at the time of all this.

Um And yeah, he was uh he basically um

was like, "Awesome, I'll set you up with

a call with Tara on Wednesday." I had

the call, got the offer letter Thursday,

uh bought a ticket Friday, moved to San

Francisco that Monday. Um slept on a

friend's couch for two weeks and then

basically we just went and

ran up Rupa and did that. So was there,

learned so much.

>> those things though. If you think about

you being in a van and sort of getting

that data sent over. There's that like I

get the feeling you're so tapped in also

to just your you know, that you listen

and these signals and and you know when

to sort of activate stuff, but it really

sounds like one of those where

you saw it and you went, "Okay, here we

go." Like there's there you know what I

mean? Like uh and those are so important

from an entrepreneurial perspective like

to not like sit and debate all the

things uh in your mind, right? But just

when you when you hear and feel

something, you're like, "All right,

done. Chapter as soon as you have

signal, I think that's the like most

important thing is to act on it, right?

Like and it's the hardest thing as well.

Like signal and noise especially right

now. It's so frothy. Like I you know,

what is the right thing to be building

is the hardest thing in the world cuz we

can build anything. Um I mean we

literally had a product meeting like two

weeks ago where it was like, "Fuck. Like

what do we what do we do? Do we go you

know," cuz it's just there's you can

build anything.

>> 4/7 is out now with auto approve. So who

can

>> [laughter]

>> Exactly. It's like it's like where does

this turn into? But

I I think more and more like I'm

realizing it's just like a business at

its core is always the simplest thing.

Like it's it's basically like what does

the market want to buy and like how you

know, how do I sell it? Like how do I

get in front of them basically? Um And

if you just like look at that as that

first principle, then you know,

you have all the

signal that you need for like what what

what I should be working on. And so like

we're finding this right now. Like we're

like we got we just added this agent

feature on top of us. Um we were data

pipeline data warehouse and we were

building this like BI tool. People were

interested. We you know, we're growing,

but we kept having people like, "Cool, I

have this insight now. I want to go act

on it." And so it's like, "Yeah, like

that's what everybody wants to do,

right?" And like we were seeing this

within our like even our distribution or

go-to-market where they're like, "Hey,

like I want the full system. Like I want

the

you know, I want the GTM engineering

basically." And so we started like you

know, in the last literally like two

weeks offering that as like a hey, we'll

forward deploy. We'll build out these

systems and processes for you and build

these AI, you know, agents for marketing

and it's market's just been like

everybody wants it, right? Like cuz it

it it's

you're telling me I can like

basically hire you guys and I get a team

you know, an infinite marketing team

that scales. Like that's based off of

the actual outcomes that we're looking

for and we I have that feedback loop.

And I think the thing that's changed

with all of this is like for the first

time

like there's all those AIS uh

uh like SDRs that came out in the first

like wave of all this. And uh people are

like, "Oh, like you can't have this

because it it fails." Like they like

they they and it's they they basically

like look at that as like the example of

like why this won't work in this like

system that isn't um like finite. And um

it's really funny cuz I when anybody

that has that opinion, I'm immediately

like, "Oh, you're a rookie. Like you

don't realize that like growth is just

like I'm just doing engineering, right?

Like at its core." It's like I have an

outcome that I'm trying to get. I have

limited resources of time, money, and

mental energy. And then like how am I

basically like distributing, you know,

those resources most effectively to

create that outcome? So that's just

that's just a system. If it's a system,

then I can you know, turn it into a

process into into software, etc. So

anyway, on the to go back to the AI SDR

thing uh what I find really interesting

is when you do a like a postmortem of

what actually happened, the agent was

performing unbelievably well. Like it

was getting leads. The leads were just

terrible quality. So basically it it

self-optimized into like you know, it's

it's a great example of this is like if

you run Google if you've ever ran Google

Ads, um you can have this happen where

it basically will self-optimize the ML

will self optimize into like a a a a

subset of your audience that that it's

bidding on that is like creating a

sign-up event at a cheaper cost, but

it's not it's it's like the wrong person

to get in basically. So it basically

ends up getting

>> cuz it thinks you want lowest CAC ever,

you know, exactly. And so it's like if

you have the wrong signal going back to

it, then that's like it's not the

agent's fault. It's just it's doing its

job, right? It's just like a human. It's

just basically it's optimizing for the

wrong metric. And so what we we've kind

of realized now is like if you have this

whole data like solution where it's like

all my data's here and I can provide

that to the agent and I can be like,

"Agent, I'm trying to make revenue.

Here's all of the resources that you

have available. Here's the systems that

you got." So to give an example, like I

on this live stream like two days ago I

built this AI for SEO agent. Uh or

sorry, this agent for SEO. So it

basically like does keyword research. It

researches what's ranking on page one of

Google. It then I gave it like a

transcript of me talking about this

specific topic category. Um like how AI

is changing Facebook Ads is this is

exact example just to be explicit. And

then based on that it writes the

content. It publishes the content. And

then it like calls the web indexing API

to index the content, and then we have

another agent that's then looking at the

live data,

optimizing that article based off of the

feedback loop that we're getting from

Google Search Console.

And then from that, on top of that,

there's another agent that's basically

looking at, "Okay, what pages are

actually making sign-ups?"

It's looking at the post-hoc data. What

pages are actually turning into revenue?

Let's have that go influence the next

round of creative. So, like it creates

this feedback that

when you when you look at any like good

go-to-market like system, that it's that

exact process. It's like, I try things,

I look at what works,

I do less of what doesn't and more of

what does, and I just like repeat that

growth loop. And then to make a company

grow really fast, you're basically just

layering on this growth curve, right?

So, I do that one channel, and then I

layer on channel two, and I layer on

channel three. You never stop what

you're doing, you're just layering on

these next elements. So,

um

Anyway, yeah, I I I think that it's just

like that has been the realization that

like we have come to, and I think

everybody has come to. And then the

infrastructure around that ends up being

like the hardest part, right? Where it's

like, "Okay, how do I actually give my

agents the things that they need so that

they can go and do,

you know, these tasks?" And also, it's

just like

nothing is built for this. Like

if you were if we had this conversation

like 6 months ago and somebody was like,

"Oh, should I pick HubSpot or

Salesforce?" I'm like, "Okay, it depends

on where your company size is at." But

like, you know, HubSpot hit

historically, like I would pick it cuz

the UI is more like user-friendly, and

like I you know, I can do more within

there like as a as a normie that's not

technical. Um now I'd just be like,

"Absolutely not. All you're looking for

is like what has the most APN like API

endpoints, and like what can control the

product at like the largest like scale

via the API?" And and per like because

agents are going

>> And we were talking about Life Field.

Like that's one of those I was going to

look at CRMs, and I was just meeting

with the co-founder of Life Field. And

basically what you're getting is a cloud

code plus an MCP that happens to be a

CRM. And you know what I mean? And just

being that brain instead of the you

know, all the drop-downs and the

navigation

>> in too like at this point? Like we're

like Yeah, yeah. I mean, I haven't

touched HubSpot, right? But I've been

using it. Like we're I'm in sales cycles

right now. I'm literally living out a

graph that has an API key to HubSpot,

and I'm like that is my whole

interaction with it. And then I'm like,

"Agent, like keep tabs on my deal flow.

Like tell me what I should be focusing

on, like who hasn't followed up, like

you know,

like I can build out these systems on

top of this, right?" And so

>> And this idea like 2 years ago when you

you know, when when ChatGPT really sort

of emerged into the into the zeitgeist,

this idea that like, you know, website

pages, the way that we know them now are

going to go away, but just this mythical

thing. But what's interesting, it

doesn't happen the way that you think

it's going to happen. There are no

websites. It just so happens that the

thing that you used to go in and do all

the drop-downs for, you just never touch

it anymore. Yeah, exactly. You know, I

think the other thing that's like we're

realizing too, and we're getting this

feedback from users is they're like,

"Hey, I want I want the software to

evolve and mold to be like what I need

it to be." Um so, like we built this

dashboarding solution initially, and

then we have people that are like, "Hey,

I want to I want to add this like, you

know, basically like a drop-down

filtering mechanism."

And we're over here and we're like,

"We're getting in the way of what the

user like the user can just ask the

agent to add that to the dashboard."

And then it just like does that, right?

Like we just give the agent a skill so

it knows how to like dashboard like

effectively. But then that those those

final, you know, mile

like solutions that they're trying that

are really, you know, custom and

specific to them, you have to almost

make like dynamically generating UIs to

do this. And so like how we're solving

this right now is like, "Okay, say I

want to do a dashboard." So, we built a

dashboarding product initially that's

like this like very specific like, you

know, it's like components and modules,

and it's basically just like you can

vibe code a dashboard with the idea,

right? Um

But now uh

now what like where we're going with

this is we're like, "Okay, we're just

going to give the agent like here is an

endpoint where you can create an

artifact, and like you can basically go

and design whatever dashboard like the

user wants, but you can host it here,

and like this is in the safe, you know,

space. So, it's like it's not being like

publicly created or added to like a

website, but that can be shared if you

want to. Like you can have like a

shareable link if you want to like give

that to a to somebody external.

Um but what that

quickly does is then you realize like,

"Oh, it can make any document type."

Right? So, like I'm talking about a

dashboard that's on top of your live

data. So, say you're trying to do

reporting on your paid ads, right? And

you're like, "Cool, I built a custom

reporting paid ads dashboard." But I can

then be like, "Agent, build me a slide

deck that has these charts

like as PNGs in this slide deck, and

gives a report, and like, you know, I

want you to create that on every Monday

and send that to my client." And so

because it has this dynamic UI

generation, it's like now it's like any

asset that you need that's like a

snapshot in time or a deliverable, it

has the ability to go and create that

for you. And it just turns into this

like really,

you know, I I also the surface area gets

really scary as like a as a company and

a founder I would predict this

experience with that when like the UI is

dynamically generating, and then it's

like dependent on the user to have like

the right way that it's describing the

output. But like again, what we're

finding more and more as companies are

like, "Hey, like we want this done for

us. Just like, can you just air drop in

and build out these solutions and then

maintain and run them for us? And like

instead of us going and hiring 10 people

and having to pay those salaries, you

know, we're going to pay you like 1/10th

of the cost basically to do that." Yeah,

yeah. So. And I think that, you know,

and that's where that's where you and I

sort of re-intersected was when

I was right at the place where Martin

and I spent, you know,

June through

January through March sort of heads down

rebuilding for enterprise and teams cuz

the the one-to-one accounts weren't

working.

And then it was ready, and we started

selling to businesses, and businesses

started taking off. So, we thought,

"Okay, we really need to build the

go-to-market, and it needs to be not

just me talking to people."

And so

and so I started looking around, and I I

hired a few teams. And the few teams

that came in were

as I told you, it was like it was like

the older school like, "Let's take a

list and put it into GoHighLevel,

and then let's email those people, and

let's see

if there's any movement." So, like You

know what I mean? Or whatever. And you

sort of spend like 2 weeks doing that or

whatever it is. And it's, you know, and

and so you think about those old cycles

of standing up SDRs and and AEs, and

then teaching them and training them.

They got to come in in the culture. They

got to get in a notion. They got to do

email box right or whatever. And how far

away that is from being able to spin

something up and get signal this

afternoon. Uh

and and start iterating on it is

>> has changed that too. Like we we didn't

even have this like, you know,

done-for-you service or this

forward-deployed service. And I was like

basically just like, "Do people want

this?" Like let me just like literally

put it on Twitter and LinkedIn.

And I'm going to throw up a tally form,

and we'll see like what happens. And

like we got like over 100 people to

inbound. I'm like, "Oh, there's an

appetite for this." Cuz they're like

everybody wants I think this is the

thing too with all this AI agent stuff

is like everybody wants this.

Um but they like they conceptually

understand it, but the actual like

build-out and implementation of this,

the gap between that is is so large.

They just want the outcome, and they

just want to pay for the outcome. Like

can I just buy the outcome?

>> like vibe coding, right? Like everybody

said you even had investors being like

being like, "Can't someone just vibe

code this?" And and and not

understanding the idea that like vibe

coding from 0 to 80% is pretty cool.

80 to production and live is is like a

chasm. And unless you know what you're

doing, How do I do agent evals so that

it hits brand style guidelines? Like how

do I do agent evals so that like the

image that's coming out of Nano Banana

from, you know, these two different API

endpoints that we're hitting, like

there's a feedback loop where it's like,

"Oh, you're not We have an agent that's

observing, and it's like you're not

hitting these brand style guidelines.

Like you have to go back and like do

these modifications." Cool, now it

passed that eval, goes to step two where

that's uploaded. Like all of those

pieces that you just when you get down

into like the, you know, the weeds with

it. Like cuz

you talk about like an AI agent for like

SEO as an example. And people are like,

"That's easy. Like I give it a keyword,

and it writes it." And then they do

this, and they're like it doesn't rank.

It doesn't, you know, there's

I I'm not getting anything to happen

from it. And then you like when you look

under the hood of like what is good

content, there's actually so much that's

happening to actually make that, right?

Or like what is good content?

>> between an agent conceptually, which

feels like a robot that does

instructions, which what you're talking

about is actually a

a special like um

a special team of agents with

instructions and orchestration that are

working in concert, which is totally

different, which is not what what people

understand with the idea of just agents.

For sure. We think about it as like

agents forms where they're like, and

this is like again, like

we're very early. I'm barely sleeping.

We're figuring out like how do we do all

this, right? Um

But like what this what we're realizing

is like, "Okay, for if you want if I

just be like, 'Agent, run Facebook

ads.'" It's like, "Holy [ __ ] you know?"

Like just like a human that that has

never done it before. And it's also just

like it's very it's very rare you can

find somebody that can make good

creative, that can like actually run

manage the ad account, that can analyze

the data, that like can do all those

pieces. So, it's like And you wouldn't

know that for at least two, three months

until you really got into working with

someone. Totally.

>> Yeah. And so what we're finding though

is like if you give a scope of work to

the agent where it's like, "Your job is

research, right?" So, like you are

researching the pain points of our

target customers on social media and the

outcomes that they want on social media.

That's all your job is. You just

basically like scour the internet, and

like ingest all, you know, you build a

corpus of information. So, that gets

handed off to

uh you know, the script writing agent.

And their job is to write scripts based

off of that. And uh they They like, you

know, have access to the HeyGen API so

they can make the raw video file and

then, you know, there's like a loop

where it's like make the HeyGen, you

know, make the the AI UGC ad, remove the

the silence, like add captions, okay?

That then gets like uploaded into, you

know, the Facebook ads account, totally

separate agent. Managing the ads

account, here's these rules that you

have, like if the CPM hits 50, that goes

off. If it's like, you know, you see a

a CPA of X price, you know, up basically

promote that to its own ad set, delegate

budget to that and then, you know, if

you start to see a CPMR that's going

like like higher like at the end of the

ads life cycle after 30 days, then I

want you to automatically turn that off

because it's basically we're seeing ad

fatigue happen, right? If I try to get

an agent to like think about all of that

and do all of that, impossible. If I try

to get a human to do that, impossible.

It's just very hard. And then the other

layer on top of that is like, okay, now

I have an agent that's like needs to

analyze what's actually working and give

that feedback loop to the rest of them,

so they're like ads like this work.

>> [laughter]

>> Based on what you're seeing, like you

know, how do you do that loop? And so,

how we how we're starting to approach

this is like imagine you have like just

like you would have a team, I have like

a team of agents and they're like all

listed in their own little sandbox and

they're working on, you know, their jobs

and tasks and then I have these like ICs

and then I have a manager and then above

that you probably have like, okay, like

this whole other, you know, analytics

system where it's like that's looking at

Facebook ads, it's looking at Google

ads, it's looking at SEO and looking at

the composition of the entire

organization. I think these are all the

things that are important.

>> It's not a mental model that we actually

are used to, which is why I think it's

it's so interesting that you're you're

on the like

the cusp of this wave of figuring out

how how this is all coming together.

It's not a mental model that we're used

to to think, "Hey, this afternoon over

coffee, I'm going to stand up and a

micro company of 12

>> [laughter]

>> and have them start doing all the work

and to know what to do." Also the

speed Yeah. The speed of this is crazy

too cuz like we had we, you know,

talking to a startup this morning on a

sales call and they're like, "Yo, we

need GTM like tomorrow. Like how do we,

you know, how do we get to that?" He's

like, "We got to go raise our, you know,

our A like we we have PMF but we we have

to go raise our A. We need it we need to

get velocity going." And he's like,

"What's the He's like, "What's the

onboarding look like?" And like I could

just tell he's like thinking like, you

know, 30 days or like, you know, to get

this to scale. And I'm like I'm like,

"Yo, we've we can deploy an agent in

like 40 hours. Like as fast as you want

to move, like we can do that. It's like

it's it's really just at your

discretion." And

what I'm not talking about like one

channel, I'm talking about like

all the channels. It's just the same

playbooks like

ported over. Like if it works for this

SaaS company, it's going to work for

that SaaS company, right? And then then

the problem becomes like, okay, this is

what's happening.

And everybody's doing this. Like, you

know, we fast forward 12 months or

whatever, 24 months. How do you create

differentiation? Like what is that? I

don't know. I don't I keep getting asked

this question and so I'm just like

addressing it kind of like head-on. I

have no idea where this goes. I don't

know where this ends up. I just know

right now that like this is working.

You can like

you can build you can finally do this

where like I plug in and a company is

marketing itself. Like all of the

technology exists for that. Now it's

just building the systems and the

operations around that and like the the

standards for the agents so that they

have like a caliber of work that they

have to do too. So, anyway. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Like this where you see with

with I know it's What's so funny too is

you think about it with the the life

cycles have shortened.

Right now if you said, "Where where

would you see the company in 5 years?"

It almost seems seems strange because

it's like, "Well, I think I'll have

flying cars and and all stuff like you

know, like how how fast stuff goes." But

really like where where would you see

even if you jump 6 months based on what

you've sort of learned over the past 6

months? Like where where do you see

Photographed headed? Yeah, I think we're

a bubble.

Um

I think we're first in a bubble. Like

everybody I know that's doing this type

of work is like they're like,

"This is on the horizon." And like I

think it this is a

a shift that's going to take 20 years,

right? And then like by that time

there's going to be another thing that's

the next thing. And, you know, like

hopefully I don't have to compete in

that next cycle.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah. Uh but it's going to be gnarlier

than this one, right? Yeah.

>> But but I think I think with that

though, like how I see this evolving,

um

and just like based off of like what

people are asking for and like what the

market and and what I know mainly is

like again, I know like go-to-market

agents, right? Like that's like what

we're doing. So,

um but I I think that

these companies

it's going to be just really hard to

hire this talent internally. So, you're

going to have all of these organizations

and again, they don't want they don't

want to buy like we're seeing this more

and more. They they just don't want to

buy a self-service function. They want

to buy like an outcome and then you're

just basically building virtual

employees for them. And I think that

that is more and more what's going to

happen

is like Also I think as the the shift of

understanding and learning is you

to your point about not hiring

internally, unless you have all

neurodivergence that stay up all night

all the time,

you know, it's one of those that the

company can't shift fast enough to be

able to, "All right, everyone, we're

going to start training on this like

process,

uh you know, and so you have to buy

outcomes because the only people who

understand how to do it, you know, it's

going to

3 months from now it's going to shift

when Opus 5 comes out and it's just

going to be like 100% different."

Totally. And we already see this like,

you know, we we ship a lot of what we're

doing with like the mini max 2.5. Super

capable for the cost. It's unbelievable.

Like the the cost, you know, if you just

make that assumption too, like the cost

for intelligence is going to like

approach zero. Like we're going to have

We've already seen, you know, two cycles

of this where it's like

frontier model gets released, like

open-source model gets trained off of

derivative data and they're, you know,

fast follow 3 months later and they're

at 1/20th the cost, right? And like

that's basically like you're going to

continue to see that same, you know,

like thing occur.

Um Yeah. I think that like I mean,

that's the bet that we're making as

well.

And every time that the models upgrade,

like we just see the outcomes that we

can get them like things that we can get

them to do are just that. Like it's a

step function each time, right? And with

auto approve, you can even see start to

see the future a little bit of

>> Totally. I'm going to give you

everything you need. Well, I've got

agents that will end up doing the plan.

The plan has been tested. The

the plan is bulletproof. I'm going to do

a one shot and this thing's going to go

at it for the next 2 days and then, you

know,

>> Totally. uh I built a directory site

like 2 weeks ago just to see like for

fun.

So, this is it was when I was initially

testing like Hermes. So, I was like,

"All right, can we just like have like

go scrape every business in this

category

and just like pull out everyone you can

find in the US that's in like a medical

space." Um

went and did that. And it's like, "All

right, like let's create an action plan

to build out like a directory website

that has like, you know, this structure

and on the homepage you can like filter

by location and like that those pieces.

Needs to have a login and then I wanted

like add it where it's like, you know,

they pay to have their listing show up

at the top, you know, so that like

in SEO geography. Whatever, right?

Um and gave it that plan like, you know,

dangerous permissions on cloud code and

I'm like, "Go run." And it's like I was

like, "Cool, I'll probably, you know,

end of day it'll probably be done." It

was like 45 minutes later it's like this

thing is completed, right? The agents

that like collect the data like took

time but like the actual one to get from

an output it was like nothing to build

the actual product. And I I think that

that is like, you know, is it it's a

great

great fortune-telling for like what is

what is what is coming down the road.

And like I I don't see this again, if if

you have

I'm really obsessed with like can a

company market itself? Like

like can I Like all of it exists. All

the data exists.

Like the

intelligence exists. That's all you

need.

>> Yep. And then it's just like, how do I

create that feedback loop based off of

the action? Then the hard part becomes

what is the action that I want to

happen?

So, it's like it always comes back to

human problems of like, "Okay, what am I

optimizing for?"

Um

cuz then it's like, you know, you're

pointing like a

nuclear weapon at whatever [laughter]

this thing is. And so and so it's like,

okay, if you choose wrong on like what

it's optimizing for, then it's that

you're just the outcomes aren't going to

be what you expected. And so,

uh

anyway, yeah, I I I think for us right

now like week by week it's changing and

companies like there's no way they they

can move at the velocity and speed of

this right now. So, I think there's just

an a huge for company like for startups

to like go and build these types of

I don't know what you want to call them

like agents as a service or like it's

it's there's there's all these different

terms. They're like service businesses

are the new like

>> But if you're not diving in and breaking

a bunch of stuff

and learning, then it's going to be real

it's going to be tough to catch up. You

know what I mean?

>> going to be a rude awakening.

We're we're just onboarding this company

right now. Um like this old boomer

entrepreneur um

owns like 10 like 10 businesses in his

portfolio. Um the guy that, you know, is

running point, younger guy is like

technical.

And um like the

you can just tell he's like, "I know

this is coming. I have no idea where to

start."

And like that, if you just like take

that and look at the entire market and

be like, "Okay, like that is every

person's feeling."

Um how do I go and serve them, right?

Like there's just so much to to to do

within within that. So, I I think also

like on the personal like there's things

that are just like fun.

Like you can have agents that are like

I mean, we we've been

throwing this around uh like my fiance

and I have like, can we get agents to

like just start cold emailing like

people in geographies asking them about

like things that are happening in their

community as like a a way to do polling,

right? So, like polling I used to like

call and like do thing. But like imagine

like I've been in an email chain with

this thing for like

whatever, 20 messages. And then it asked

me a question about like, you know, some

bill that's about to go through or

whatever that is it being. And like I

have this relationship

that's been cultivated at scale

like

with this, right?

Like what what happens in that that

situation? Like it like there's these

things that you can do now that are just

like incredible, right? I mean we we've

been experimenting like with that. We've

been experimenting with like can I have

like autonomous like news, right? Like

where it's like

We we started with

like podcasts where it's like a

basically like we have an agent like

research like a podcast category sorry

like I say for example it's like

e-commerce and it's like cool go find me

like weird e-commerce companies that

nobody's like heard of but that are like

growing quickly. Like one was like this

like random mushroom company functional

mushrooms from like Canada or something.

It's crazy. But they're like growing

really fast. And I'm like okay, go find

me everything you can about them. And

then I want you to write out like a

monologue script and then 11 Labs voice

put that in and then we do an email

newsletter on the back of it of like,

you know, basically promoting the

podcasts and and you know, then we you

can put ads in the email newsletter,

right? Totally autonomous running on its

own. I mean like list is at like 20,000

or something and it's just like I I

don't know what any of this looks like.

I think I think what's going to happen I

see is you're going to do this a few

times and then you're going to flip over

on the VC investment side, but you're

going to end up having these agents that

sort of like and you go

yeah, invest 2%.

Yep, [laughter] invest 5%. Like you just

start like collecting all these pieces

of companies just because of all the

signal that you're getting. Totally. I

think now too it's like you can just

touch the data of these companies and

instantly know the health of them. Like

I it's wild man. Like

if you unify all of the data and this

used to be a massive lift for

organizations, right? Like if you unify

all the data and like

>> was it Omni? No, what am I thinking of?

Like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Even the

BIs that like for a startup to get into

is like well, I talked to one it was

like all right, it's about 30 grand a

year to like get started or whatever and

you're like wait, what? But you still

need to bring in the consultants who end

up standing it up and they try and sort

of, you know, sanitize everything and I

mean it's just ridiculous amount of

money. Totally. And I this is going to

be a become a large problem too is like

the agents are assuming about the

underlying data. And so like unless

you're teaching them the ontology of the

underlying data, it becomes a massive

problem. So like a great example of this

is there's like 96 tables in Facebook

ads alone and there's like hundreds of

columns of like you know, in each of

those tables. Um

if you ask it like, you know, show me

link clicks or show me show me CPC over

time, right? There's like all link

clicks like ad link clicks Like what are

the rates and notions for every block?

Exactly. And then then maybe like adds

them together. Like you it doesn't know

like, you know, it's just it's it's it's

it's guessing off of its own training

and like what it thinks that column

title means in relationship to like what

you asked. And so what you have to do is

like you basically have to like teach it

like okay, when somebody says this they

mean this and then you can actually run

like an eval program over the top of

that where you're giving the agent more

context on like what the underlying data

set means so that in the future like

maybe it and

you know to

just give an example it's like okay,

maybe it like it it tries five times to

write this SQL query to pull in, you

know, the data that you're looking for.

Um and like that's like a failure,

right? Like it's like that's not quick.

It's not doing you know, it's being very

inefficient. But if I can show it like

hey, here's how to do that and then

basically have it test, you know,

basically runs its eval program to like

improve

when, you know, user asks for something

that's in the shape of this this is what

they mean. Here's how to write the SQL

code and then it one shots the first

time. So you can get it they can get

more performant under the hood. And I

think that's this the this whole other

thing is the agent evals of like both

the data and like the decisions it's

making on which is going to be a huge

problem because the worst thing that you

can do is make decisions on bad data.

Like that's why everybody is like

again the AIBDR thing or like I see so

many people right now that are like I

just hooked up Cloud Code to like the

Facebook ads API and they're like look

at everything I can do. And I'm like I

guarantee you the data that you're

getting out of it. Like if you're trying

to do data analytics out of the Facebook

ads API I and you're running a

legitimate account where you're like

you're spending real money. I guarantee

you that that data isn't correct. Like

you're going to be

>> You drink from a firehose and and you

don't even know what to to analyze.

>> the the like you're you're

it's just and they don't know like

they're not technical, right? Like it's

like a marketer that's doing this and so

they just like they're assuming that

this is right and it's like that is not

representative whatsoever of the actual

like in it like base data. So the

information that you're turning that

data into is entirely wrong because like

you're running into rate limits, but

it's not telling you that. It's just

like yes, here's all the data or you're

having like truncation errors when

you're using some MCP where it's like

again telling you it's all of the data,

but it's not. It's just like page one

because it has trouble with page nation

or you're like okay, uh

there's like endless, you know,

challenges that happen from this.

One we see all the time is they're

basically like just stuffing all the

data into the context window of these

agents or like of these of these models

and they're like okay, analyze this. And

it's like what? Like

this is tabular Read war and peace and

if you can tell me, you know, like you

know what's funny is with 47 coming out

with Opus 47 coming out today, I saw it

do something really unique which I was

actually working on something when the

switch happened. I was working I have a

Webflow agent that goes into Webflow MCP

and a few of our clients that we have

helped sort of level up or build their

websites for and I connected the MC the

Webflow MCP in Opus 46 and it had that

problem where it would try and go and

and take every little piece of every

little page and figure out what was

what.

I [snorts] did it today on 47 and it

said, you know what this is taking too

long and it fire crawled the whole thing

on the outside and then said okay,

here's what we do. Like it basically

knew that it was just taking a dumb

route and then it went out on the

outside and it read the pages from the

outside made markdown files from them

and then solved the problem from this

which is crazy. It's crazy. I I Uh It's

like those those are the things where

it's like it's escape patching itself in

a way that is so

like unexpected and exciting. Um I the

challenge with that though is like how

do you create safety in it? And so like

this is something that like we're

figuring out like in real time, right?

Cuz it's like there's only so much you

can do. But The repo wasn't organized

well, I deleted it. I'll make a new one

here. Like yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[laughter] Exactly. Exactly. What are

the limitations? So like we see this cuz

we interact with a lot of API keys,

right? Like it's like oh, you want to

publish something to your CMS like we

need to do that through the API key. And

um so how we're handling that is we

basically like the agent is actually

never touching an API key. We're

basically storing it in like a secrets,

you know, file that's local. We give the

agent like a, you know, a ghost key it

thinks is the Webflow key. And so like

when it's interacting and writing, you

know, the code that it means it's

basically doing that

like using that key. And then right as

the the call happens we're basically

proxying in the real key so that like

the agent is never like

interacting with it. Um and what that

creates is it's just like at least some

So it's like you don't have like who

knows where this inference is going.

Like is that API key getting served up?

You know, what like what is happening on

the outside of that? And then the other

things that we're doing is like we

actually like a

remove the agent's ability to like use

the web.

We just like gave it like fire crawl and

then it you have to approve like its

ability to go out and do specific

things. Um so that it's like again it

can't get prompt injected from a random

Reddit post that it reads and suddenly

your, you know,

Mercury bank account information is now

in some

exactly. Anyways, but I think again

these are the these are the problems

that it's like we're all facing we're

all trying to figure out and like we're

all trying to solve that are going to

just be like

trial and error. And I I think that's

also like the hard part for these

companies is like they don't even know

what the surface area from a safety

standpoint for this stuff looks like.

And we all don't, you know, we're all

just building like the best version that

we can of this. But with anything where

it's like if you're accessing the

internet, like you are a vector, right?

Like a human is too. And so it's just

thinking about it in that

in that mindset as you approach this

like with agents, you know,

working on the behalf of businesses.

Where I think it gets really exciting

though is like what we're starting to

see with these like these

services that are like for agents. Like

our friend is building this company

that's basically like it's an it's it's

data for agents, right? Like oh, you

need like

>> Email inboxes Totally. Exactly. Exactly.

>> Like so cool. Like you got you have a

Gmail box for your agent. And so then

you end up running like rock reports and

those come in via email and then the

agent can pick up that email and go

okay, I'm going to take all these things

which is amazing.

>> Exactly. Exactly. And so I think that

will be really interesting to see what

happens. And like we're also like we

want to experiment with this of like can

we like give an agent a credit card and

like it has like a $50 limit and like

we're like go do this thing. And then it

comes back and And all of a sudden

you're like steak dinner, $250.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And it was

like but it was on sale. It's like

[laughter] all right. Yeah, exactly. I

saved you so much money. Totally.

Totally.

>> Yeah, I it's it's a it's a fun period.

What would you say to someone like

So as a like typically I I ask you know,

guess who were on like if you if you

were going to have sort of tell yourself

when you were first coming up or

entrepreneurs. But I think what's

interesting now with what you're pushing

into is

I would love to hear what your advice

would be for let's say an entrepreneur

that is either early in their journey or

or has has an established company.

They're sort of going through pre-seed

or seed

and but they are

they're a founder

but they wouldn't call themselves

technical and they they maybe they use

Cloud Code or ChatGPT, but like in the

desktop or the web app and that's about

as far as they've gone. Like what would

your like okay,

this is Cody's homework for the next

month is you should go do what? Yeah, I

I think that the most valuable I mean

everybody's saying this right now, but

like I'm just going to parrot it cuz

like I'm seeing it. Like

I just had a friend who got hired at a

company. He's getting paid like 650k a

year and like literally it's because

he's a go-to-market engineer and he's

like you hire me. It's like I got 20

like work clothes and agents behind me.

It's like you're hiring a team, right?

And you know, if you're a young person

and you're like you know, I know I want

to start a company someday. Um I I want

to try to get a job at one of these

organizations that I can go and and and

you know, provide value to. Um it the

the pool of people that know how to do

marketing

and know how to use like this tooling to

actually like do the middle work for you

is like Yeah. I mean I it's a handful,

right? I can call them on my phone. Like

that's

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah. It's like it's like it's like it's

essentially it's like there's a hundred

brain surgeons that know how to do this

one very specific thing. Uh

>> And and and with that like I think that

it's going to become like more

you know, adopted. I think it's just

going to become the standard as it as it

as it starts to go through this

ecosystem, but right now the arbitrage

is that like if you become become like a

marketing engineer or go-to-market

engineer, the the GTM engineer has kind

of evolved. They're Originally that was

just like you were doing cold outbound,

but now it's like okay, you're doing

everything, right? And like the

marketing engineer is like okay, you

were just doing like paid ads

management, but now you're doing cold

outbound and like it's all it's kind of

evolving into the same, you know, role.

But I think it's there's something in

this space

>> design and development, right? You end

up having you know, my what Microsoft

just said that they basically are taking

people who do content and design and

development and they're hiring that one

person and just fusing those things

together.

>> And and and when you look back at like

the the people that always made impact,

they they typically had a combination of

skill sets. They weren't like deep T in

one thing. They were like deep T and

like two things and then that like you

know, an example of this is like the

founder of Polaroid, right? Where it's

like deep T's in a couple things and

like that's what makes this like

unbelievable company, right? Um and I I

think that that is like what's happening

here. Like if you can get pretty

competent and like you can get so far

now with Claude code. Like it's like

Again, I it's just looking back like at

my

I was like

scrapping to get YouTube videos that was

actually showing how to do stuff and now

they just like exist for literally

everything, right? Like every tutorial

that you like in a weekend you could

learn how to do paid ads

cold email

SEO

and also

you know,

probably like email nurture campaigns.

Like that there, if you have that and

you go to a company and you're like yo,

I can do this, but I can do it out of

scale because I'm like you know, using

agents for this. Like you are now like

top 1% basically. Right? Because it's

there's just so few people that

understand these pieces. Like it's and

they don't know how to deploy they don't

know how to use this new tooling that

exists. So

Yeah. Well, and I'm going to get I'm

going to give a little graph plug

because I love I love it so much, but I

also So like this is a great example of

and I'm not an engineer by trade. Like I

I poke around with everything and I I

want to understand everything. But

>> [snorts]

>> uh when I when I signed up for graph

um

there was a Saturday

uh

not too long ago that I uh sat down with

a cup of coffee in the morning and I

hooked up uh Apollo

um our Stripe two Stripes, QuickBooks,

Brex and PostHog Analytics and um by

about 2:00 p.m. had a full dashboard

command center of basically all of our

cash, our burn scenario modeling all of

the product analytics, but like all in

one thing that only my co-founder Martin

and I could log into

and I could I could click a button and

download the markdown file for all of

that scenario.

And then drop it into Claude and go what

if?

And I could what if forever. And these

are things that normally as a as a

startup founder would have been

taking a bunch of different things and

getting freelancers, getting

specialists, getting you know, and so

and now essentially with Claude code and

graph I have a command center that I

probably would be at least paying, you

know,

1,500 bucks a month for whatever plus

having specialists and analysts doing

it. So I'd probably be spending a couple

thousand dollars a month.

But that literally now it is this is

running our business, which is crazy.

It's so like

I you know, I'm building this product,

so I'm biased obviously, but like the

stuff I had to do in it like would take

me literally hours or be impossible like

previously. Like I you know, I taught

myself Looker Studio off like YouTube.

It's like

I have to click 20 buttons to get this

like filtering mechanism. Like you just

you just

>> anymore. I like graph and PostHog by the

way. Oh my god, it's it's crazy. And

like I think this is also something that

the PostHog thing I just you made me

think of this, so I just want to

piggyback off of it. The setup now is

going to happen by these agents. Like we

just I I needed to do like get uh we

switched from Amplitude to PostHog. I

was like [ __ ] I don't want to set this

up. And so I literally was like here's

the API key, just like do it. And it

went and built out like what we needed.

It had access to our codebase and you

were needed to like put the like

>> And PostHog is the best example I think

of we actually went through and I hated

like I went through the Google

Analytics, then I went to Mixpanel and I

had two consultants in two different

periods coming and

saying we're going to take a while and

analyze how all this is working or

whatever and I couldn't stand I spent so

much money on that. And then when I

dropped PostHog in

and just started watching the data over

the next little bit, it's so fascinating

to see how PostHog really is just a big

SQL lake.

Totally.

>> can just ask it all the questions. And I

think that's where and and that's very

similar to graph, right? That you're

basically like great. Now I have

everything in one place and we can ask

all the questions. I just love that

we're getting out of all these like

expensive

you know, overhead layers that that were

unnecessary. Um and now we can just get

to the data to make the decisions.

>> Totally. And it's just the time to

insight. Like we found this when we were

just running the analytics product. It's

like how do we get the first insight to

be as fast as possible? Like that was

like our like metric of success for you

know, activation.

And when you think about it like

it every person at a company your

company right now, if you're listening

to this, every person at your company

right now has a a data question that

they wish they could ask that they like

can't get to the answer to currently

because either there's not enough

bandwidth on the data team or like if

they do put a request in, it takes three

to five business days and if they have a

follow-up, it's another three to five

business days.

And

uh if also the data team is always

prioritizing whatever finance and the

CEO needs. So it's like they're getting

jumped in the line.

If you unlock them to where it's like

okay, I can now interrogate the data

that I live on top of to understand this

>> my Claude code desktop

is Reddit still our number two referrer?

And it goes hold on a second and it

checks graph

and it goes yep.

It's amazing, right? It's just like

>> That's it. Which is which is crazy. Uh

Totally. Amazing, man. Thank you again

for hosting me and sorry again about

this morning and I I No. No. No. deal

with the dog and then it was just like I

was behind on calls and the combination

of all of that and stuff. Anyway,

>> Like the the I think the life we've got

is this shell game of being like a

little bit over here, a little bit over

there, a little bit over here, you know?

And like and everything everything bumps

into place. Thanks for the time and I I

appreciate it.