welcome back to the Allin podcast the

number one business technology and

political podcast in the world I am your

host Jay Cal Jason kakanis and with us

today three of my besties you got David

freeberg cackling over there he is your

sultant of science previously known as

the queen of quinoa but he sold the Quin

Juan business made a killing in quinoa

also with us back from Italy back from

Italy shamal ptia he's at 67% button

and uh he's not happy about it but the

hair looks great you still got a little

sea salt from the the yachting I think

I'm going to try to keep my hair along

let's see what happens did you bring any

of the sea salt back with you from the

Mediterranean put it in a little bottle

to spray or no no but I do have Minal

oil oh okay great and have you showered

in the last week or is it still you got

the Mediterranean glove every day I've

showered since I've gotten back see

that's the problem you were you don't

you don't have the SE to use as a

natural you know disinfectant anot

exfoliant exfoliant also yeah look how

many buttons he's got going I know it's

just TR beginning I feel uncomfortable

for your neck I mean it's like creeping

all the way up your neck looks like a

prisoner let your winners

[Music]

ride

David we open source to the fans and

they've just gone crazy with it Love

Queen

[Music]

I walked here but I had it totally

unbuttoned and I thought this is

completely inappropriate for Meo Park in

August so I buttoned two buttons back in

business mode he's in business casual

mode he went from casual to business

okay and with us of course the Dark

Knight himself yeah the Rainman David

Sachs and we have a bestie guesty for

you folks friend of my other pod this

week in startups Reed Hoffman is here

and uh you know him as a venture

capitalist board member at Microsoft and

you the co-founder or the founder of

LinkedIn I don't know if you had a

co-founder co-founder co-founder of

LinkedIn now owned by

Microsoft he's got his own podcast

masters of scale and uh he he and David

saxs work together at

PayPal Reed give it welcome to the

program and give us a little story what

is your fondest memory or the most

quirky memory David S and that all those

weirdos I'm sorry not supposed to use

the word weird anymore I get banned on

all of those unique personalities at

PayPal tell us about that moment in time

and do you remember the first time you

met David sex yeah I met um David uh

because Peter had known him from

Stanford and hired him in um and you

know David uh very quickly because he

you know uh has a has a strong learning

curve as he plays these things kind of

got the Instinct of what the game we

were playing with PayPal was and it's

part of the reason why why I think you

know each of the execs have had you know

kind of key contributions to making um

you know kind of PayPal successful and

and David's was this kind of like um

maniacal focused on the kind of the the

cycle of how the product worked on eBay

um and like like there was just a whole

bunch of stuff I learned from him it's

part of how I track you know kind

of you know people I respect is what do

I learn from them and that was one of

the things that I would say I learned

from uh David at PayPal that's nice

David tell us your first memory of

meeting Reed Hoffman would you remember

where you were do you remember the

conversation and yeah yeah I think well

we met through Peter you know and Reed I

think Reed was on the board of was

confinity back then and then joined

full-time what were you like

28 27 29 no I mean let's see um this

would have been

2000 I I guess it would have been 27

when I first joined PayPal 27 28 I guess

something like that yeah 99 so whatever

that was yeah in any event I mean I'll

just to return the compliment you know

PayPal had all these existential issues

where you had these larger entities

trying to kill us Visa Mastercard eBay

who else oh the let goes on City Bank

yeah and uh Reed was was kind of our

Emissary who kept all these dogs at Bay

and managed to I guess be friends with

them I guess to some degree even though

they wanted to kill us and re was kind

of in charge of making sure that these

existential issues didn't blow up on us

and they didn't so we got pretty lucky

there it's it's the Will Rogers line

it's politics is the art of saying nice

doggy while you hunt for a stick tell us

like a moment read that is incredibly

memorable to you from that PayPal era

you know some existential moment or one

of the more difficult or funny moment

moments late night moments that would be

indicative of that era and whatever was

in the water that Drew all that talent

to one

place well part of it is that I mean

this is you know among the things I was

learning from from Peter was that Peter

and Max uh recruited just a tremendous

focus on on uh like intense learning

curves so you know it was one of the

things that Peter later was like okay I

guess you have to interview for being on

sports teams and so forth because this

teamwork thing does matter but like high

performers and it was kind of like a

like and that was part of the reason why

there was such intense um you know kind

of uh Innovation and capability um you

know probably the most stunning memory I

had at at at PayPal is we you know we're

all young we're all first time we're

we're kind of doing a startup that

matters you know kind of uh making this

stuff happen and we do this merger with

XTO

and and you know like pre the merger

closing um you know Elon is is saying oh

I got this CEO Bill Harris he's the best

ever that's part of the reason why you

should give so much percentage to the

company deck.com and the merger You Know

da d d d da and then after um the merger

literally the first meeting I had with

Elon is Bill Harris is a complete

disaster we need to fire him right

away like like before we get to the

first board meeting we need him fired

and I'm like uh Elon you need to talk to

Peter about

this well I mean my he is decisive

that's for sure all right well let's get

into we want you know we're going to go

a little bit mullet here fredberg we're

going to start with business and uh then

maybe we had a we had a fun meeting

about that topic at a place in paloalto

that no longer exists called Antonio's

Nut House yes exactly yes the legendary

Antonio's n house yeah and when Bill

eventually did meet his demise um at

PayPal

it was called The Nut House

coup he got whacked at The Nut House

where on the pool tables in the back you

whacked him or in the boots in the front

well it he wasn't whacked he was whacked

at a board meeting not at the nut house

but certain plans were formulated at the

the back of Antonio's Nut House it's

Antonio's Nut House is um yeah the most

unhygienic bar in the Bay Area and then

that's that's a pretty low Benchmark

let's just leave it at that we'll start

with some business here talk a little Ai

and then since two of our panelists have

a passion we'll do the party political

parties at the end everybody knows re

was a co-founder of inflection Ai and as

a general partner at Greylock and uh one

of the founding investors also in open

AI there's a good story there I'm sure

and we just got results Reed uh from

Nvidia results were good they beat

across the board stock was down after

hours

analysts said probably profit taking

putting that aside we've never seen a

chart like this in the history of uh

business I would say data seter Revenue

26.3 billion 87% of their revenue now

you remember Nvidia started obviously

with you know video games and and uh

didn't have a major Data Center business

that has exploded uh net income 16.6

billion gross margin

75% and uh here's your chart on a total

basis nvidia's Revenue scale up is

basically unlike anything we've seen But

if you look their C quarter over quarter

Revenue over the past couple years

things are starting to cool off

significantly after that giant boom R

what's your take on nvidia's just

incredible run here is it sustainable

will they have competitors and do you

think this buildout this massive

buildout we're seeing from startups to

sovereigns you know to Microsoft which

you're on the board of Google Apple Etc

is this sustainable and is this going to

keep going well I got asked that

question unsurprisingly by many public

market investors over the year yeah and

I said basically told them and say Hey

look it's sustainable for two years

which for you guys means

forever yeah eight full quarters yes

exactly so that that's Infinity right in

terms of time um you know uh Nvidia has

a very sharp you know kind of lead on

the importance of the the chips for the

training clusters um you know they're

they're effective on inference um but I

do think that as you kind of scale the

demand there'll be a lot of inference

chips uh coming in um you know I think

chamath here invested in one of those oh

um and um I think there's going to be a

bunch of those kind of coming in and and

and the bulk of the demand will be on

the inference side and then Nvidia will

have this challenge of do I try to keep

my prices and my margin or do I do what

what we like competition do I have to

respond to the competitive market and

that I think will will play out you know

start playing out probably in a year two

at the latest and then kind of go so I

think it's not sustain the the the pure

heat is not sustainable um but I think

it's you know nvidia's got a very strong

position and and um you know I

definitely I would recommend people not

be short on

Nvidia yeah today so yeah there's growth

left competition is coming and this is

probably not the type of stock you would

want to short at this moment in time

yeah uh freeberg what are your thoughts

on this buildout uh as well as the

software buildout that's occurring and

when do you think we're going to see

some competition come into the space I

don't know if this competition and the

buildout I think we talked about this in

the past I don't know if you guys saw

these quotes this week or recently on we

don't think about this build out in

terms of Roi Gavin Baker in conversation

on invest like the is that the name of

podcast y I think referen some been with

the leaders of these regarding the

buildout is so important because

ultimately if you create this quote

digital God the you know return is how

many trillions so it doesn't matter how

many tens of billions you're spending

each quarter right now you have to get

there you have to make sure you don't

miss the boat I guess Reed a question

for you you're on the board of Microsoft

still right like yes indeed as Microsoft

SAA publicly talked about how they

rationalize the investing principles

associated with building out AI

infrastructure in the cloud is it Roi

based like hey in the next two years

we're going to make this much additional

incremental operating profit ory we got

to get this thing working right right to

be more precise is the investment driven

by Roi or does everyone just say this is

so strategic we just have to win it and

we'll throw all the resources we have to

at this well so um what well one board

members speaking for Microsoft is you

know is forbidden so I'm not speaking

for Microsoft just speaking for me right

um two all all cloud computing platform

companies how are yeah what's your s on

how they're thinking it's just one of

the principles in the Microsoft thing is

the company speaks for itself board

members don't don't don't speak for them

um but you know I think SAA is like the

best public market CEO of our uh

Generation Um I think he is

stunning um in kind of blending com

combination of strategic Insight with

also kind of being you know kind of

return on Capital you know sensible

risk-taking Etc and so the actual thing

between your guys questions in terms of

because I can comment on how SAA thinks

with this stuff is he's both thinking

about like it's a platform change and

you have to be there for the platform

change for productivity for cloud Etc

and okay let's rationalize the capital

to when are we expecting Revenue how do

we get Revenue sooner to to have that as

a good productive cycle how do we um you

know be not trying to you know just uh

spend like drunken Sailors which is easy

to do right but but to to be targeting

you know kind of business outcomes and

it's part of the reason why you know

like like like you know he's very

focused on what are we doing with office

what are we doing Cloud what are we

doing with you know as opposed to like

you you you rarely hear him talking

about AGI or never digital Gods because

it's kind of the question of I am I am

focused on this in a business sense and

I think that's that's kind of the way

he's doing it but there is obviously a

you know kind of a it's hard to predict

the future when it's novel and unknown

in platforms and it's part of the reason

why you have all the hyperscalers now

you know kind of fully engaged and

intelligently engaged because you say

well if even it's just a new platform by

which you know kind of software

everything with with with a computer

unit in it whether it's a a phone or a

speaker or a computer or anything else

anything with a with a with a with a

with a kind of a CPU or a GPU gets more

intelligent like you can't miss out on

that platform um and so that's that's I

think the the thing that's motivating

everybody but it's obviously you know

how to do that smart is one of the

things that uh you know everybody is I'd

say obsessing about every

week what do you think about the open

source movement versus closed Source you

were one of the original donators to

open aai you were originally on the

board and there's a couple of ways to go

with this question but I just want to

start with forget about the corporate

structure over there we'll get to that

in a second but I want to talk

specifically about open source met is T

met is obviously far behind open aai far

behind Google Microsoft so they went

open source when you're behind you go

open source I guess is the idea here um

but they're making some big progress who

do you think is going to win this

ultimately an open- Source uh provider

of llms or proprietary closed Source

like open AI is and it's confounding to

say open AI is closed but closed

AI yeah um look from the very founding

open AI was never claiming it was going

to be open source was claiming it was

going to be one safety Open Access um

and not differential or controlling

access uh for that and I think that's

they stayed true to that principle which

is I think what the Genesis of the word

open is there and um look I think the

key thing is there's going to be winners

all over the place I think there's going

to be winners in the open source side um

and you know I don't I don't know if

llama's going to win from its open

source thing as much as it's just TR

saying hey we're training these models

so we're going to you know uh put them

out there because our closed system

closed loop you know doesn't require

selling for tokens and so forth but

there's also you know Mr all and other

folks who were doing competent models um

and then I think that the uh the but you

know there'll be wins in different ways

so it's not like I think like for

example you know I think there's going

to be a bunch of different startups

they're win whether it's coding agents

or you know kind of very specific

applications within medical or other

kinds of things and I think they will

you know generate big companies and I

think large companies like you know the

hyperscalers are going to are going to

succeed as well now in the pure model

competition the question is when do we

start seeing a a a a Asm toote to scale

and um and my guess is and you know kind

of the gbt landmarks is each order of

magnitude my guess guess is the soonest

will be

gpd6 um and it might not even it may

even be after that and that's part of

what the the bet that open Ai and

anthropic and the hyperscalers are all

making is that that that return to scale

and then that has a lot of Downstream

effects because even if you say we can

train smaller models uh to do effective

things part of what's going to be really

instrumental for training those smaller

models is the larger models so like even

if there's a bunch of smaller models

that are specifically capturing other

kinds of Market opportun ities which is

part of what I've been doing and

investing in AI since you know 2014

2015 um you know there's a there's a

there's going to be a a set of those

things that are all a whole bunch of

startup opportunities so I think it's

that the the a versus B is is is is a

good dramatic framing um but it's really

on which specific opportunities because

there's going to be wins and

opportunities across

them uh sorry just real quick do you

think there's one um llm or one found

AAL model read that effectively does

everything like a meta model that starts

to take most of the market or does

different versions of smaller models or

small agents that kind of network

together end up being the best solution

for specific applications and verticals

like how does this evolve over time like

everyone's got this concept that there's

a God model that does everything and

wins and whoever gets the god model wins

everything but the reality of software

and principles of biology would indicate

that you'll see like smaller Network

things that are better at doing things

than any one big thing and I'm to hear

your point of view on the philosophy of

that yeah I think the mistake that

people make is they think precisely it's

like the one model to rule them all it's

like sauron's ring and actually in fact

um already today like for example one of

the things that happens with all the

model providers at Microsoft and open

eye which I've seen is all sometimes Sub

in like GPD 3.5 as opposed to four to

see what the answers are because there's

a cost of compute even as you learn to

bring the cost of the compu of the

larger models down the larger models are

always going to be a lot more expensive

and by the way they're going to be more

expensive kind of probably Loosely on

the order of magnitude right so it's

like well it's 10x larger it's 10x more

expensive totally and and so when you're

trying to say hey I'm trying to make

business models work the language

translation right if I just want to do

language translation I don't need a

massive model I just need a model that's

really good at language translation

exactly and so think you're going to see

is is is networks of models and like

kind of traffic control and escalation

and all the rest and agents are not

going to be one model they're going to

be blends of models and that's one of

the reasons why you say well there's

actually in fact a lot of a lot of room

for startups because it's not like we

say well we we take gbd 7 and we just

serve it for everything it's like well

it's going to be super expensive and

there's a whole bunch of things about

like serving it more cheaply and like

for example one of the the the really

great technical papers that I love for

Microsoft is you know all you need is

textbooks it's like you can you can

train very specific models on kind of

like high quality data um along with by

the way the larger model helping train

it that all of a sudden you have a

functional smaller model and you know

the the question will be a blends of

these things so I think the the the the

multimodel model approach is I think

going to be you know quickly Universal

what is your take on I in this new era

we uh see open Ai and you're not on the

open AI board anymore right you're so

you're dependent of that even though you

made a big donation at some point

donation and investment I led the the

first commercial series first commercial

so you're an investor in it and you

donated to it but actually let's start

there what's up with that corporate

structure how do we make sense of that

something's a nonprofit you donated to

it and then you invested in it and

everybody's making money and selling and

secondary at 100 billion how does that

work in the world so um so it's it's a

51 C3 is the governor thing that's what

started and you know when you know kind

of Elon and Sam were starting this and

said look we need you know philanthropic

support and we're we're trying to make

sure that there's like open access to AI

which is going to be an instrumental

technology and we've got some great

technologists who want to come do this

we started as a as a you know kind of as

a 501c3 for doing it that that that

persists as far as I know till today

then you know one of Sam Alman 's you

know pieces of Genius was that he kind

of said look we're going to need scale

capital and I'm trying to go out to

raise and Commercial round was 600

million I'm trying to raise 600 million

philanthropy and is not working right so

so I have this idea which is the 501c3

which is doing this kind of research

mission of you know AGI for Humanity is

also producing commercial benefits and

we can create initially an LP which has

a a kind of a a a a a revenue right on

the commercial things that investors can

invest in and you know um you know Reed

it be really helpful if you led this um

because you know and I was like well but

you don't have a go to market plan you

don't have a product plan you don't have

a business plan like yeah yeah but you

know like we we need to show that we're

actually serious with the business I

said all right fine I will I will lead

it for my Foundation um you know because

even though none of these things we like

to see as investors were there but I was

like look okay I'll lead it as inv I'll

manage it as an investment but I'll do

as an investment for my Foundation um in

order to do this and um and what you

know you know kind of that was kind of

as we were beginning to get in a you

know like kind of we we hadn't seen

anything they were still doing DOTA and

and robot hands and bunch of those so

it's like we're betting on the scale

thesis of generating something magical

and so we hadn't seen gbd3 yet um and of

course once that started coming then it

was like well we need a bunch more

Capital let's do a strategic you know

you know um you know connection and

let's talk to all the hyperscalers and

let's work out a deal by which one of

them invest in us and and and then you

know the the Microsoft openi deal came

together with you know converting the lp

into a subsidiary of the nonprofit you

know kind of saying look um there's all

kinds of benefits that both open Ai and

Microsoft can get from a business deal

um and so that's that's that that's

what's led to you know the structure um

you know that I was familiar with before

the board do you what did you think of

elon's first lawsuit and then he dropped

it and then he refiled where where do

you think he's coming

from well

um what what is the uh you know I'm not

very charitable about those lawsuits um

you know I would like to be because you

know elon's one of the entrepreneurial

Heroes of our time and generation but I

think it's the I think it's you know

frankly I think probably the most thing

to say is sour grapes um because you

know for example I know Sam offered him

as much of the investment round as he

wanted right like he could have done the

whole thing he could have let it you

know it was kind of like hey look we

still love you we still and like and he

was like no it's not a company that I

control it's going to fail so I'm not

interested in investing and I was like

okay right and so now you're getting

these lawsuits that are like you know um

like I was misled it was like you were

offered everything at every opportunity

other than converting open AI into a

company that you you completely owned

and so um you know I think it's without

without basis without Merit but why do

you think he would have dropped it and

then refiled where do you think that

comes from is was is there new

information do you think or I think it

was a jurisdiction issue

Jamal oh that makes sense I got fact

that but Reed I mean Elon put in the

first what $44 million and he doesn't

have any

shares yeah I by the way put in 10

million at the same time and I don't

have any shares from those 10 million

but do you think that he kind of got

screwed because he doesn't have any

shares I mean at the time he put in the

44 million it was never going to be a

for-profit now it's a for-profit a lot

of people are profiting you know

assuming the paper Mark ends up being

realized so he doesn't own anything I

mean if you the seed investor and put up

44 million and something and then

everyone's making money and you don't

have any shares forget about the legal

technicalities wouldn't you have a

feeling of being

screwed well I look I can understand the

emotion of that but like it's not like

elon's short of money right and so if

you go look I'd like to have shares like

I did invest in the other thing I didn't

get any shares for the 10 million that I

put in and by the way it's not just

legal technicalities it's actually

really important that you're not doing

private enrichment off philanthropic

donations and so you know it's it's but

isn't that what's

happened um no from a Viewpoint of

they're held separate right um and so

you know and the 501c3 continues to to

control the um you know kind of control

the kind of the the the the mission and

Destiny and so forth and so the question

are its mission is still is still

guiding things and you're essentially

investing in that mission and you

recorded you recruited people you know

on that mission and so um you know I

think that the you know um you know I

think like I said sour

grapes uh okay so let's get into some

political stuff first I want to uh get

the IP question then I want to talk

about lenina con so how do you think

about IP in this you know briefly in

this new world open Ai and New York

Times can't come to terms New York Times

caught them red-handed cookie jar

according to their lawsuit having

indexed a ton of their content it's

pretty crystal clear that their

content's behind a pay wall and that's

how they make money I also subscribe to

chat GPT I give them 20 bucks a month

maybe 30 bucks a month for every

employee in my firm and and I get New

York Times content from there all the

time I will ask it what does the wire

cutter think is the best choice in chat

GPT I get that and then I get the answer

and I don't need my New York Times

subscription I don't visit the New York

Times anymore um feels pretty clearcut

to me but how do you think about IP

should uh an llm be able to ingest

whatever they please or should they be

required to get permission in advance

and pay a royalty to content creators

Reed

Hoffman huh well as a content creator

too look I

think I think that it tends to be a

little bit of

a look we do want content creators to

benefit economically from the work it's

part of the reason why we have copyright

it's part of the reason why we have

payrolls you know other kinds of things

that I think are are very important and

I think it's it's a complicated thing

that needs to be sorted out now that

being said I think we also want to say

that we can train these models like you

know like training is like reading and

like reading things is you know like

when something's available to be read

and you've engage in the right economic

thing for reading it I think that's a

kind of a reasonable fair use thing now

maybe we update the terms of service

maybe we update you know copyright law

or other things to say okay that now

changes you know I think we don't want

to forbid changes in the future you know

um this is like one of the problems we

get with it blocks Innovation when we do

that it blocks Innovation and you know

kind of Hollywood it blocks Innovation

and music it blocks Innovation so you

want to allow some new chain you know

changing landscape and I think this is a

changing landscape that arguably is

reading so I think that like both of

those things are true in terms of what

do we what do we want to sort through I

think that one of the reasons why this

is kind of like you know over like when

I give advice to you know various news

organizations and so say look don't try

to hold out for money on the training

side of things because you know we're

going to create synthetic data we're

going to do all kinds of other things

that are going to mean that no one's

particular data is really going to

matter what you should be is on

freshness on brand on other things and

we should work out ongoing sustaining

economic Arrangements like that that

would be my two cents you know

suggestion for it and I do think we want

to design an ecosystem that includes

that and you know when I was involved in

those Co conversations at open AI they

they agreed with that Microsoft

certainly agrees with that in terms of

you know how do we make sure that

economics are fairly apportioned and so

forth for you know what we're doing for

you know this phase of you know and

ongoing but like you know there's a

current Tech new technological wave

that's coming and how do you do that so

you know that's a messy answer but

unfortunately it's a messy subject it

it's pretty messy subject yeah before we

move to politics I just wanted to

actually ask you about inflection so is

it still running yeah and so what

basically happened there was like some

transfer payment from Microsoft and a

couple of the people like and then it

seems like whatever that deal was a

little bit seems to have been copied by

Google when they did this character AI

thing so just trying to get a sense from

you are these deals to structurally

avoid FDC scrutiny in terms of the

building blocks of it or how how did you

think about it and what is the what is

the pattern and the trend on these

things well the thing I think this

happened was you know very early days

you had things like you know we're doing

an agent and if Pi had launched before J

gbt it'd probably be in a different

circumstance but like chat gbt got the

oh my God high is the inflection AI the

inflation agent yeah and so so by the

time that Pi we got the the the trend

right and the and the interest of the

market right but we got the timing you

know too late happens with startups so

it's like okay we need to Pivot we need

to Pivot from a b Toc model to a B2B and

we have a unique model but let's sell

that to other people who already have

audiences because we're not going to be

able to easily grow our audience and

then you know once we had that as a

conversation there were employees are

like well we want to do the direct agent

thing and that's what we want to do and

maybe we'll go somewhere in order to do

that and we're like okay how do we fund

this and how do we make that work and

how do we make it work for investors and

we said hey there's a deal structure

that could work which is you know with a

you know kind of outside party you can

get paid enough in a non-exclusive IP

license and an ability to selectively

hire folks and then you can dividend

some of that out to investors so

investors you know get back a you know

kind of a 1x um and then kind of a a an

ongoing position so you know as

investors it's great to have a kind of

optionality on its B2B business

um in order to play that out and this is

a structure that works for everybody in

this pivot to be to be and that's

essentially the the the structure that

we did I see great pivot chth into Lena

Khan I think one of the things that is

quite Paradox paradoxical about your

relationship with David saak is you both

agree on something in politics which is

Lena Khan and her Concepts around future

competition and maybe how she's running

uh this issue for the United States is

leading to basically a freeze on the

market we're seeing weird deal

structures like some of the ones we're

talking about here that could have just

been

Acquisitions and I'm curious your

thoughts on what she you know this sort

of breakup of Google now we're seeing

that emerge at the same time that

they're facing the biggest existential

crisis of their career which is language

models competing with them and me I

would say half of my Google Searchers

have already moved to you know uh you

know chat GPT like services so what's

your take on Lena Khan's approach to m&a

and what impact if it's continued and

sustained will that have on Capital

allocation because I I don't know what

happened to the single and double m&a

Market but it seems to be completely

gone everything from Adobe and figma to

other uh mergers that could be happening

are essentially Frozen so what's your

take

so it was funny because I kind of made

an off-the-cuff you know kind of remark

about Lena Khan which turned into a

whole news cycle I I saw you on CNN

where they were like are you telling

Kamala and Biden what they have to do

and I'm like no because I don't believe

in that kind of Corruption of of of

Politics the only way she's gonna learn

about it is either she asked me or she

watched this television show um and um

and so so she's done a good job on the

price cartel she did a good job on the

anti competes both of which I think are

very very good for you know competitive

markets the problem is I think she has a

misunderstanding of these uh large tech

companies and um for example on the m&a

thing you know her theory is you got to

prevent the aggregation of power so you

got to you got to fight every

acquisition of note and the problem of

course is that actually quells venture

capital investment because it's like

okay um part of the the returns is if

I'm going to invest in something that

might be competing with you know one or

more of the large tech companies I need

to have acquisition exits as part of

being able to to fund enough Capital to

really make that acquisition you know

that that that that investment possibly

work because if it doesn't work I want

to be able to at least return recover my

Capital by an investment so the right

way to look at it is is there

competition amongst the top tech

companies because you know if one of

them is like squashing all the other

ones that's a problem if we're if we're

five large tech companies heading to

three then I'm much more sympathetic to

our point of view but we're actually

five heading to 10 right or five to

seven heading to 12 because like Nvidia

is now in the mix and and others I think

coming Mi is you now over 500 billion

yeah so yes and so you have this ability

so the thing is is they're competing on

the Acquisitions just like they're

competing in the Mar in the marketplace

and if you're trying to quell the whole

thing because your theory is like like

they should just you know the startup

should just be able to grow up to

compete that actually means that those

will never get the capital that they

need in order to do that which means

you're actually having the opposite of

your intent right what you're doing is

you're actually in fact making there be

less competition because you know

capitalists can't say if I'm going to

put a 100 million 500 million a billion

dollars into this company I at least

have a chance of getting my Capital back

or I can possibly create a competitor

and that's that's the reason I was

speaking out against it as an expert um

was like interesting you I saw you I

think it was a jake taper Tapper who uh

you kind of grilled I thought you did an

exceptional job of just saying listen I

made a donation this is how I feel about

it but obviously she's going to do what

she wants to do and and that's just how

politics works so uh I thought that was

actually pretty well done and I actually

appreciate you fighting for more m&a

because it would be great for the

industry Sak you wna you want to throw

up a political topic here or you want me

to no just just to stick on Lena Khan

for a second so I I agree that her

approach has been uh overly Broad and

has had a chilling effect on m&a and so

Jal like you said we've lost those base

hit Acquisitions that I think are

important to the Venture Capital Market

that help new stars get funded I mean if

the Returns on risk Capital go down

there's going to be less of it that

me'll be less be less inovation yeah so

I agree with Reed on that the area where

I'm not sure we agree is and and where I

do agree with Lena Khan is I do think

the big tech companies have too much

power I do think that they are

monopolies or have monopolies and I do

think they need to be controlled I just

think that you know I wouldn't prevent

them from doing any m&a whatsoever I'm

curious if Reed like agrees with that

that the big tech companies have too

much power or agrees with Lena Khan on

that and I guess specifically do you

think any big tech company should be

broken up if so which ones I mean I I

would actually entertain that idea of of

of deong glomera or breaking up some of

these big tech companies do you do you

think do you agree that big Tech has too

much power or

not um I think it's

TBD um but the reason I'd say look take

the opposite point of view we would say

no uh the thesis for no is that they are

very strong American comp companies that

get you know in the most cases over half

the revenue from

overseas they create uh technology

platforms that beneficially

differentiate the

US um versus you know many other uh

countries in kind of global

circumstances like the inter and other

kinds of things um I think that they are

competing ferociously with each other I

mean uh you know Jason just mentioned

that you know it's kind of like look

we've already got like chat GPT

competing with Google search and other

kinds of things and I think it's

competitive pressure right this is I

think what capitalism is about is

competitive pressure that essentially

creates the thing and that's the reason

why like if it's if if we were shrinking

like it was Google Uber Alis or I

actually frankly think that the you know

Everyone likes to talk about you know

Google you like I think the the prime

candidate is likely to be and I'm

speaking as an individual and as a

venture capitalist here is apple with

the app store right okay so wait so so

that brings up an interesting point one

of the things we've talked about in this

pod is that we shouldn't shut down m&a

but the the uh FTC should limit

anti-competitive tactics by these big

tech companies yep Apple really good

example because they drive everything

through the App Store you're not allowed

to do side loading they want to take

what is it 30% piece of any sales you're

not even allowed to have a link inside

an application to drive except to the

website yeah yeah Europe up now you can

would you at least want to crack down on

those anti-competitive tactics yeah no

for sure and look especially when is you

know we all know it's nonsense it's like

look you could just give the consumers

the option to to to allow side loading

you could just say it's technically very

simple to do and you could say look uh

we we don't want you to Sid load because

we view it to be Safety and Security but

we're giving you the option right fine

give people the option right Reed were

you surprised that then the first Target

where there was like some successful

antitrust push back was against Google

versus Apple and then second do you

think that there's a chance like a

meaningful chance that the government

tries to break Google up or do you think

it looks something maybe more similar to

what happened to

Microsoft so I think in mandating

breakups you know like I think is a um

look I think we should operate through

competitive networks and competitive

ecosystems I think it's part of what

smart about capitalism and I think

mandating breakups is only when

essentially capitalism is failing uh on

specific things you want to do the the

least the least you can to get back to

competitive networks in terms of how

you're operating and so you know when

you say hey look I iOS has this kind of

Monopoly and you say there's no side

loading you have to use app store you

have to use the payment mechanism you

know etc etc it's like well that quells

a ton of startup Innovation we all know

this as investors because we look at

anyone who's perspectively doing a

business like this and say no chance

it's you know you're you're not going to

succeed and so so then you say well

what's the least thing that we can do

right and you know a classic antitrust

like well let's break off the App Store

from Apple as well right unclear that

that would really fully work you know

that's like socialism mandating how the

thing should work let's try to get it so

that we allow competition uh to

determine these things and like for

example saying hey like you have to

allow consumers the option of side loing

you have to allow consumers the option

of installing an alternative app store

right like that kind of stuff I think

you know what's the minimal stuff I

think that's the kind of intervention we

want to have because I think there's all

kinds of benefits that come from why but

why do you think that the the case

against Apple has made less progress

than the case against Google

uh I think it's kind of it's less

politically easy right like it's kind of

like everybody loves their iOS phone and

you know there's there's there's less of

a blue and red you know kind of combo

tackle um where you know the the blue Fe

people are like hate big companies less

offensive basically you're saying yeah

yes more stylish they're they're

prettier I I kind of like your approach

though with the app store if you were to

think of least harm to the ecosystem

epic games has their own App Store for

games they charge 88% they give they

give I'm sorry they give developers 88%

they only take 12 and forcing Apple to

allow you know a startup to do an app

store would solve the entire problem and

it seems like that's where it's going to

go and all five of us would invest

instantly in an App Store that would say

0% take rate and all Advertising based

what a great idea that would be yeah GRE

I have a question

a few weeks ago you said something to

the effect very publicly that you had

had a one-h hour or multi-hour lunch

with Biden and he just seemed like super

on his game and then he was kind of

dumped was that just a moment in time

where he was really great with you or

how do you reconcile that with Pelosi

and all of these other folks and what

happened to

Biden well like most of us um I was

pretty dismayed by the debate

performance um because when I talk to

him like detailed thoughtful analysis

with no notes on Gaza questions about AI

you know and what kinds of things you

know what did I think about what the

progress you know the thing they were

doing with the volunteer commitments the

executive order and you know what kinds

of things should happen in the future

and all that kind of stuff being on the

game a little slower right than than you

know a a 50-year-old would be but but

you know like cogent and totally worth

and then you kind of uh looked at the

debate thing oh my gosh this is this is

this is a disaster um and so um it was

like look is the debate a one-off thing

is it did you were you ill you know like

trying to reconcile the two and you know

spent a little bit of time trying to

figure that out uh to to what was going

on because it was it was the first time

I'd seen something like that and you

know um you know I don't you know I'm

not enough of a DC Insider to know

exactly what the set of conclusions were

other than I you know I plotted you know

Biden for having the kind of Integrity

go look I'm maybe I'm Ill maybe I'm old

maybe I'm slower but you know the it's

about the country more than it's about

me because I'm you know not um you know

it's it's it's important to be about the

country not about yourself I'll I'll

step aside and ultimately his decision

there's nothing that anyone could force

Pelosi couldn't force it anyone else

it's ultimately his decision he came to

that decision so um you know

do you think that they should have run

an Open Primary after that and would

kamla have won an Open

Primary well it's hard to know I mean I

think they were definitely leaning

towards an Open Primary and then all the

people who would be the most natural

contenders all endorsed Kamala so um and

by the way you say what kind of

democratic process it was like well

there was a democratic process that

picked the Biden Harris ticket which

turned into the Harris Walt's ticket and

so that's not anti-democratic but I

think if you look at the sequence of

events it was kind of like well you know

we're we're going to sort out you know

what we're going to do and then you know

all of the key folks you know Shapiro

and and Whitmer and every else all

endorsed K I was like okay let's just

let's get back to you know kind of the

the choice of two candidates and so I

you know do you feel the voters felt

Reed do you think the voters felt left

out um the Democratic um

voters well I mean from Posta seems not

right with the level of kind of energy

and all the rest it seems that that that

um um that the uh that you know like the

with the pure polling and kind of level

energy and kind of what's going on

they're happy with what they got yeah

they're happy with what they got I would

have liked to have that speedrun do you

think it sets a bad

precedent that there were these back

room conversations

obviously the staff of Whitmer Moore

Shapiro their office speaks with

Democratic party leadership speak with

big donors and there was effectively a

coalescing that took place over a period

of time that said we should all stand

behind and endorse one person instead of

infighting and creating a split in the

party and does that not set a bad

precedent that there is a small group of

people in either party that in a primary

process effectively get to nominate

their candidate get their candidate to

become the nominee and therefore there's

only two people for the country to

choose from and as we have seen recently

with RFK Jr and the lawsuits against him

in being on the ballot in different

states it makes it very difficult maybe

for the people to have their choice and

is that a bad way for democracy to work

and I just love your philosophical view

on this on like what's the best way for

democracy in the United States to

work

so for the president for the president

yes we do live in a republic all right

and there there is various like you know

some people have much more influence

than others um whether it's media

platforms whether whether it's um you

know economics and ability to spend

whether it's you know a history and a

brand and and and other things and so

you know this melee and and and kind of

you know whole integration set of things

now ultimately you know voters are going

to decide in November right so you know

people do have a you know and I think

that that that staying to our Democratic

process is what's really key like you

know people going to the polls you know

I think we should want to live in a

country where everyone does you know

everyone who is who is legally allowed

to vote does vote um and I think that

that's you know ultimately good thing

now you know are there things that I

would like to change sure I'd like to

change I'd like to have rank Choice

voting you know I'd like to have open

primaries there there's a set of things

like like actually my principal

frustration in all of this stuff is you

know what's what's one of the

fundamental things the two parties agree

on that that that that shouldn't be is

that there should be only two parties

right and I think that's uh I think

that's something that you you need to

fix and you can't fix it unfortunately I

think with independent candidates

because because the whole system is

really set up uh for you know kind of

two parties and independent candidates

are almost always spoilers one way or

the other I mean like on the RFK stuff I

understand there was a bunch of

Democrats who were trying to you know

prevent him from getting on the ballot I

actually prefer him on the ballot

because I actually think his his his

antiva stance you know really fit very

well with with Trump and so I think he

was do you want to address that Reed

because I think there was a rumor that

you were funding some of these lawsuits

to keep him off the ballot or whatever

like have you spent any money to try to

impact RFK one way or the other I

wouldn't be surprised if we look at all

the money that goes to all the different

organizations if organization X kind of

had some kind of ballot thing my in my

voice and instruction was always like no

no no no don't do that that's

anti-democratic but you know you can't

control everything just like you invest

in a company and Co sometimes the

dumbass [ __ ] that you can't do anything

about because you give you give money

you give money to to folks that then

execute their own strategies so you

can't control on the ground tactics

right yeah so there's there's that

happens that you're like no don't do

that right well okay that's a good um

that's a good segue because let's talk

about the five cases against Trump there

are five lawsuits hold on jcal I don't

can we just stay on this top for a

second I think this okay so in in

Michigan Wisconsin you had Democratic

groups they fought RFK Jr's bid to get

on the ballot okay they failed now he

wants to get off the ballot but they

won't take him off now that they think

that his presence hurts Trump and at the

same time Michigan's trying to remove

Cornell West and Wisconsin's trying to

remove Jill Stein so I'm curious do you

think there's any principle on display

here besides naked partisan hackery I

mean basically the Democrats fought

having third parties on the ballot when

they thought it would hurt Biden and now

they want to keep them on the ballot

when they think it's going to hurt Trump

except for those third party candidates

who they still think will hurt Harris so

what is there any principle here or is

this just partisan hacker I I think it's

you know I I frankly you know think that

everyone who follows the legal process

to get on the ballot should be on the

ballot and you know we should follow the

legal process I'm very much of a legal

process kind of person what I'm opposed

to is like you know calling

raffensberger and asking for 11,000

votes right which is not legal right so

so like yeah sure is that is that bad

and and do I advocate against it the

answer is absolutely yes um but it's you

know follow the legal process if the

secretary of state of Colorado throws

Trump off the ballot for example is that

legal process if it's then overruled by

the Supreme Court or could we just say

substantively that states shouldn't be

removing candidates from the ballot

that's

anti-democratic uh well but you want

them to remove RFK from the ballot no

that's not what I saw I okay I'm just

trying to figure out no the the rule is

that well first of all I don't think

that Democratic groups should be suing

RFK to keep him off the ballot and

that's what he said is that Democratic

groups were suing to keep him off the

ballot and they were trying to exhaust

his resources so he couldn't mount an

effective campaign and some of those

groups you funded right so maybe you

didn't know what they were doing but in

any event I consider that to be

anti-democratic RFK is now trying to

remove his name from the ballot I think

as a candidate you're allowed to do that

and those same groups that once fought

to keep him off the ballot are trying to

keep his name on the ballot because now

they perceive yeah because now they

perceive the political calculation to be

a little different so my so I don't see

any of this as being Democratic this to

me is just partisan hackery isn't it so

can't youe that look yes fundamentally

from a Viewpoint of like like for

example my my direct actions and yes

there was you fund a whole bunch of

different groups and you have different

groups doing different things but you

funded them to do this thing that you

were thinking of and things happen it's

just like companies you know my thing

was actually in fact making people aware

of of rfk's antix you know statement his

anti-science stuff because I thought

that would be relevant in the polls in

November that that was the the actual

strategy that that I believe and I think

that would differ entially you know hit

Trump more and so therefore would be a

spoiler right as these independ are I I

have no problem with drawing attention

to issues but I I do think fundamentally

it's anti-democratic to sue third party

candidates to the point where they can't

be on the ballot okay let me ask you

directly Cornell West um there's an

effort right now to remove Cornell West

from the ballot in Michigan do you

support that or would you oppose that I

mean is that democracy but by default I

would oppose it I don't know any of the

details okay fair enough Reed I have a I

have a question for

you it's more of a statement actually

maybe I just left to get your

reaction one of the most divisive issues

that we have right now is people's

position on October 7th Israel

Palestine there is a sense that there's

a growing kind of like virent strain of

anti-Semitism in America a lot of people

point to the extreme left as as where

that's really

gestating there was thoughts that Josh

airo would have been an exceptional

candidate but one of the large reasons

why he was not really meaningfully

considered was his religion I just want

you to comment on the broad issue and

whether you see it in the Democratic

party whether you see it in the

Republican Party whether you see it at

all just give us a sense of where we

stand culturally on this

issue well so like I know Josh airo I

think he's great um you know I've had

I've broken bread with him um and you

know he was meaningfully considered um

you know I think that the um you know I

think we should be so lucky that he

would you know run for presidency

someday uh some year um you know I

actually didn't know Waltz at all and

and and you know was initially kind of

surprised because you know I was like Oh

I thought I was probably going to be

Shapiro and I was like well you know I

think it was you know probably a close

call down to those two and and it looks

like you know you know in making

decisions I think uh you know Harris you

know made a good decision with Waltz so

you know I think it's a um you know now

on the on the anti-Semitism topic I do

worry that you know broadly um we're

seeing you know kind of more rise of

anti-Semitism and that's extremely

important to fight um you know because I

think and I think there are people in in

the you know it's it's a weirdly like

like uh there's some lefties who are

doing it and there's some righties who

are doing it's both a blue and a red

issue in different different shape and I

think it's very important that we you

know we stand against that uh as a

country and so um you know I've been uh

you know kind of mostly just trying to

say hey look we gota we got to be anti

anti-racism anti-Semitism and also

anti-genocide and we got to figure that

out what do you think of kamala's uh

handling of that issue in her speech she

basically seemed to I don't know say

both sides it but she said hey you can

uh believe that the people of Gaza

should be treated more humanely and that

uh you know Israel has a right to defend

herself what do you think of her

handling I think that's rational right

like you should be anti- genocide both

of Palestinians and of Jews right and

and like like it's obviously a very very

thorny topic yes right so um so I think

you know saying that I'm going to try to

protect civilians both sides anti

genocide I think that's a human Caring

Place to be looking out for people Reed

do you think that generally speaking

Marxist socialist principles are taking

a firmer hold on the the the Democratic

party and kind of those principles are

starting to Showcase not just in the

cultural phenomena that that chamath is

referencing but also in some of the

policymaking that's going on and um

concepts of

equity rooted in concepts of social

justice ultimately rooted in Marxist

principles emerging from the Industrial

Revolution what about price fix so so as

an example the price gouging you know

price caps on food

proposal the concept of a wealth tax not

necessarily the unrealized capital gains

tax but separately a tax on wealth all

of these concepts of the degradation of

power structure through policy and in

part some have argued that the

anti-Semitism arises from these

principles and that the Jews are

considered a privileged and Powerful uh

cultural class is that is that not being

observed you not do you not think that

there's some tendencies that are

emerging in the Democratic party and may

be influenced by a louder far-left and

that far-left is becoming more loud and

and better represented in the party look

I think we should speak out against both

the far left and the far right um I

think it's important to do both and so

you know since you know uh I'm I'm I I'm

playing the Democrat here on this

conversation I'll ask you guys to play

the the the or especially Sachs play the

Republican and and speak out against the

the far right too um but the the the

short answer is yes there are amongst

the extreme left that's not everybody in

the Democratic party but the extreme

left there is um some like you know

misunderstandings about you know why

it's important to to defend you know

kind of anti- genocides like from the

river to the Seas like yeah that's a

genocidal statement don't use that one

right that understand what language

you're

using and and to be like look the you

know we've had a great genocidal moment

with you know World War II and we're

still trying to recover from it um two

you know questions around like like what

I think is a a a a foolish wealth tax

even though it's by the way narrow to

like 80% and then on like the the price

gouging stuff um you know one of the

things as I started scratching at it you

know was interesting I think this week

Kroger said yes we did actually

artificial raise prices to profit from

the pandemic you know and yeah you

should stop price gouging it's not quite

the same thing as price capping and

apparently there's laws that affect even

in Florida right or in Texas uh where

some of you know uh you guys are living

so like it's kind of um you know it's

like okay I need to understand this

issue in more depth but I don't think

it's as simplistic as the political

headlines are having it well but the

reason why Comm Harris proposed the

price fixing proposal price G whatever

you want to call it was in response to

inflation in other words we've had 20%

erosion and purchasing power over the

last four years Harris needs a response

to that so she came forward with this

new economic proposal so it's in that

context this came up this wasn't some

proposal by the far left of the party

unless you consider K Harris to be far

left I actually do but okay fair enough

but my point is just this is her

proposal and it's in response to

inflation I mean you don't you

understand what causes inflation right

it's like the government printing too

much money it's not it's not greedy

corporations raising their prices too

much I mean do you agree with that look

I agree that you have to have good

monetary policy and so I think we we

probably agree on that and I think some

printing of money is part of the normal

functioning economy but too much is is

bad and I don't think look I think Price

look part of the reason why we just

talked about antitrust stuff earlier you

do have to look at places where there's

a there's a possibility of kind of

commanding stuff from your

you're a privileged position and like

you know the like I want we all agree we

all agree that monopolies have to be

controlled no no no debate there but

that's not what's caused the inflation

right because we've had inflation of

Commodities not just Monopoly products

but Commodities like just food Staples

eggs you know chicken stuff like that

driven driven by Fuel and labor and all

the other inflationary you know

underpinnings of those markets and I

think we tried to highlight that I don't

know if you saw Elizabeth Warren's

interview on CNBC where she got taken

apart

she made some claims about profiteering

by Craft Hind and the CNBC anchor has

pointed out you actually incorrect craft

hin has seen a reduction in profit over

this period of time and so like there

were factual inaccuracies in these

belief systems but you know for me it

feels a lot like the government setting

prices in free markets is one of those

steps towards socialist principles that

worry me the most yeah and look I

generally speaking as I was saying

earlier I'm like like make sure the

network sets sorts it out versus you

know centralized control totally totally

so so it's kind of like you have to look

at is there a place where you're like

going okay that's the reason I like

focused her words were price gouging and

if you're focused on the kind of gouging

side of it is like there might be a

marketting efficiency that you're

essentially correcting then that's I

think the same kind of thing we were

talking about with like the FTC and the

Apple App Store and so forth if it's

like I'm just going to set a fixed price

on eggs right that's a bad idea and by

the way there's there bad ideas like the

wealth tax thing that I that I disagree

with her her economic thing also had

housing which I think is a you know a

good you know kind of thing to kind of

lower cost for Americans and you know

kind of make that kind of uh stable work

like I think she's she's been good on

immigration um I think this the The

Langford Cinema bill which was from you

know the the the Republican side was

something they were fully prepared to

endorse and you know Trump killed it

because he wanted to campaign on it it's

like look we care about the actual

running in the country and so you look I

think there's a bunch of good things but

if you said do I defend price capping

the answer is not as an independent

principle by itself and by the way are

there people lefties like you know a lot

of what Elizabeth Warren says about

capitalism I disagree with right I mean

I could disagree with you on the border

I think you know kamla Harris used to be

considered the borders are that's gotten

scrubbed I don't think she's done a

great job on that but whatever that I

want to go back to issues that affect

Silicon Valley 25% unrealized gains tax

uh it seems like most of Silicon Valley

almost all of it is either disagrees

with this or is up in arms about this I

think jcal you would you said that this

is disqualify line in the S it's

disqualifying for me for sure yeah so

absolutely I mean do you agree that a

large unrealized gains tax 25% would be

a disaster for Silicon Valley and the

whole startup ecosystem or I mean how do

you come down on that well as I

understand it uh on that tax as it's

proposed is you have to have um 80% % of

your net worth that's right liquid yeah

if 80% or more is

illiquid then no you get to defer the

tax but there's a penalty yeah you get

to defer the tax there's a penalty

that's right look I think it's

definitely a quelling impact and it's

definitely stupid and definitely

shouldn't happen okay you know so we get

your I think we got your position on it

it's stupid yeah we all that but then

but then why isn't it dis why isn't it

disqualifying the way that jcal says are

we just supposed to hope that Comm

doesn't do what she is saying she going

to do I'll tell you why I think that

both the Republicans and the Democrats

have realized that there's actually very

little difference on a lot of the major

things that they actually talk about so

what they're both being forced to do is

realize that because the centrality of a

bunch of the things they say are the

same they each have to go to their

flanks to get the N plus one vote and so

comma goes to the left and spouts all

this stuff that seems Marxist or

socialist or communist because she has

to get those people to vote for her

ultimately I think what ends up

happening is most of the stuff in the

middle has a decent chance of happening

the stuff at the fringes I think they

get put up Sachs almost as like a

sacrificial lamb a good example I think

is like all of the stuff that's

happening with the student loan reform a

half a trillion dollar plan it gets shot

down by the Supreme Court this new plan

another hundred billion dollar not even

being heard yet by the Supreme Court so

I think they know this I mean it's not

like the Biden Administration is dumb

the Trump Administration is not dumb

either so I think what they're doing 10

million people would be an example on

the right and taking away a woman's

right to choose would be the other one

yeah and by the way Trump has said you

keep bringing that up but Trump has said

that he would veto he would not support

a national B oh no I'm talking about

already doing he already he already

overturned Rie wi I'm talking about that

yeah and by the way issue to the states

it's not outlawing abortion and by the

way at the state people in

Austin Texas well but

that's not had a ballot initiative they

have not had a ballot initiative there

just about everywhere there's been a

ballot initiative the pro-choice forces

have won and besides that's a state

issue now jcal not federal yeah no it's

a state issue and Trump succeeded in

taking away a woman's right to choose in

Texas but one thing by the way look in

the spirit of the all-in podcast I

wanted to be clear about like there's

there's there's stuff on the on the Dem

and some of their economic policy for

the far-left people that you know kind

of you know they're advocating for that

I'm opposed to you know Saks I'd love to

hear from you what parts of Trump's

things you're opposed to here we go well

look I mean I have been consistent on

this pod for years that I thought that

the let's call it the like extreme

pro-life side was not good for the

Republican party and I've been opposed

to it um I don't think it's what J Cal

says I think that overturning roie way

did not abortion it basically returned

the issue to the states and if you look

at the referenda that have happened

they've pretty much all gone the

pro-choice Direction so I think that the

overturning of Ro weight has actually

allowed the country to sort of sort out

that issue although it's not completely

sorted out but look I would not support

a National Abortion I would not support

redering the

issue I think there's a lot of issues on

about you know War and Peace where I do

not support the you could say the

establishment con strand within the

party I do not support all these

interventions I do not support these

forever Wars and there is a big debate

in the party about that now one of the

reasons why at the end of the day I

support Trump is I know this will strike

some people as counterintuitive but I

think he is the moderate within the

Republican Party he's a moderate on

abortion I know Jak C you're still

bitter about that Supreme Court case

however he's been very very clear that

he will not support National Abortion

ban moreover he took the abortion

language out of the Republican platform

I think he's the moderate on um on

issues of of War he's he was the first

Republican candidate to run opposing

Bush's forever Wars so I give him credit

on those things on style he may not come

across as a moderate but those are style

points I think on issues he is the

moderate the the issue I have with KLA

Harris is I don't think she's a moderate

you know so like just to take this 25%

unrealized gains tax first when this

issue came up we were assured well she

doesn't really believe that even though

it was in the Democratic platform and it

was in the Biden Harris budget then

people said well maybe it's part of her

platform but it's not a priority for her

and we just had one of her like top

economic advisers come out on I think it

was CNBC defending it and her campaign

confirmed that she supports it okay so

now the argument has become well she

support it it is really part of the

platform she would do it if she could

but she's not going to be able to do it

I just don't think that's a ringing

endorsement of a of a candidate I don't

think you want to support a candidate

because they're not going to be able to

do what they really want to do do you

think she's a moderate or do you think

she's a socialist you know uh gonna take

the country very far left

way yeah but what saaks didn't address

is Trump's tariff policy which is also

inflationary almost equivalent to the

price gouging uh you know food price C I

think that they're both inflationary and

they're both bad policy that's my

personal Point View where I thought it

was going to go but anyway yeah honestly

I'm not I'm not sure what I what I think

of that proposal um you know I guess it

depends on the details I'm not endorsing

I'm not opposing it but but but just

just back to this point that should we

support KLA Harris even though we oppose

all the policies that her campaign says

she

supports because it seems like that's

the argument now is that Silicon Valley

is expected to support Harris even

though she wants and her campaign is

confirmed she wants a 44% capital gains

tax she wants a 25% unrealized gains tax

these are things that I think the vast

majority of silk Valley considers to be

disastrous for the startup ecosystem

should we support her in spite of those

things well and why look the information

did a an actual data poll as opposed to

us being talking head saying we say that

Silicon Valley does X or Y and you know

the information poll showed that There

Was You Know Much broader support for

the Democratic ticket than the

Republican ticket is that is that the

thing that Ron Conway just tweeted he

might have I don't know if he just no

that's that's

different AET that's that's a that's a

different group that's a group to

counteract you and chamath uh throwing

as fundraiser for Trump was like I think

where that came from so so but the

information a news source that that that

ran a poll you know did it objectively

ran the whole thing to to try to answer

the question came out with more folks in

favor of you know the Biden Harris

ticket than I believe why do you think

that is I think that is well because

because look taxes is an important issue

and I think if you ask any any silon

Valley business person they say look

lower capital gains promote long-term

investment ask me that's what I would

say too but you know you kind of go well

what actually in fact you most need for

business is stability uh rule of law not

grifter capitalism where it's like you

know give me a ability to my own nft uh

you know etc etc you know that's what

they go we want that and by the way we

can navigate a higher tax rate it'll be

less fast on growth and everything else

but we can still invest create

businesses you know etc etc but we can't

do it with you know kind of a uh

corroding the rule of law right like you

know I think both uh David both you and

chamath spoke out against the January 6

stuff I'm curious where you're on that

now it's still top of mind for me that's

the reason why the kind of the rule of

law thing is my red line not a tax

policy well let me ask you about that

formally here there are five cases

against Trump you have uh the

Insurrection case you have the New York

taxes case you have the hush money case

you have the EG and Carol Case uh and um

one am I missing there oh and the uh

documents case you funded like Peter

Teel funded The Gawker case uh the EG

Carol Case uh which Trump lost and uh

just to ask you why did you choose to

fund that and do you believe Trump

sexually assaulted Eugene

Carol well it's kind of not relevant

whether or not I did or not what I

funded was an ability to have you know

kind of a woman who doesn't have power

who's being threatened by a rich man

with a lot of money and power to try to

silence her to have her day in court

where 12 everyday Americans right can

come to a judgment and their judgment

was uh that there was an assault and

there was slander about the assault um

and they did it twice and so that was

the reason I funded it and you know I

think that that's important we you know

the laws apply more importantly to Rich

and powerful people than it does to poor

people um that's that's the important

about the the thing I love about America

is a rule of law system and I think

that's what's most important and that's

what's really fundamental that's my red

line relative to kind of lines and the s

that we're talking about um and you know

that's uh you know that's the reason why

the various kind of lawsuits where that

seem to be that that's what's being

emphasized then you know I'm I'm I'm

happy to support them well

you I don't see how it's rule of law

when you have a uh district attorney

Alvin brag who's elected on a promise to

get Trump he then takes what are at most

uh a a bookkeeping misdemeanor that's

past the statute of limitations that's

expired and he turns into 34 felony

charges on a legal Theory that was never

explained to the jury and then basically

Trump is convicted in a sham trial by a

hyperarcs can then run what do you think

of that on The Branding on The Branding

that he's a quote convicted felon so

there are there are four other trials we

got your first one think rule of law

hold on I don't think feedback I don't

want to get re feedback too but mean

finish my point I don't think it's rule

of law when Trump is prosecuted on a

documents charge Biden himself is guilty

of he's got all these documents in his

garage for decades which the the judge

has thrown out and we've seen a bunch of

these lawfare cases where Trump has

ultimately prevailed the judge has thr

it out or he's went on appeal so I don't

that seems to me like abuse of the legal

system for a partisan political goal not

rule of law okay so Reed there's four

other cases two of them Trump's been

convicted in two of them are outstanding

what's your take on the four cases

you've heard Sax's take so what's the

two that he's been convicted J Cal

what's the other one besides the Alvin

there's three there Alvin brag was

convicted uh and then the um Trump

organization with the CFO uh committing

tax fraud he was convicted in that one

as well or the Trump organization was

convicted and people say that's law fair

by Laticia James so guilty guilty guilty

and those three of five so what's your

take on the four that we haven't

discussed you had and heard your opinion

on Huffman so look I think it's you know