[Music]

I was just sitting here contemplating

about like how I'm going to pay back all

my student loans.

>> I've applied to over 300 jobs. I don't

have a job.

>> Student loan debt just reached an

all-time high $1.48 trillion as of June

of this year. A historic drop in US

college enrollment.

We exist to educate, to teach you how to

think, not what to think.

We'd better be thinking about big

transitions or transformations, if I can

use the word, because um there's a lot

of new competition coming into our

market.

>> Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome

Berkeley Chancellor Rich Lions and

Dartmouth President Seon Bo.

[Applause]

>> Hello, sir. Thank you for joining us.

>> Hi.

>> Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Hi.

>> Hi. Nice to see you.

>> Good to see you.

>> Hi. Good to see you.

>> Hi.

>> Thanks for being here.

>> Nice to meet you in person.

>> Nice to see you.

>> Yes.

>> Go Bears.

>> Go Bears.

>> Go Bears.

>> All right.

>> All right.

>> All right.

>> Big Green, let's not forget you, Big

Green.

>> Okay. So, um,

>> what an interesting time to lead a

university in America.

So many things to talk about, but I

wanted to start with uh the premise that

student loan debt seems to be a

challenge on the young population, the

emerging working population today. At

the same time, government research

funding seems to be getting cut back and

there seems to be questions about the

administrative overhead fees that are

getting paid. What is the business model

of the university today? The revenue and

the expenses and what does it look like

going forward from your point of view

and how are you planning for that? Let's

just start with that broad picture about

the business model and how it's

changing.

>> There's a lot to that question. I'll

I'll start and will certainly have lots

to contribute. um you know that when we

at the top level if we think about you

know how do we sustainably provide the

fundamental and translational research

that we're so good at that we're built

for the education really transformative

educational experiences that many of you

have had in these great universities um

so you know one way to think about that

is on the research side if there is less

federal funding coming in over time and

I think that's that's a good bet uh can

we partner more with with industry are

there other sources? Is there way to

gear philanthropy even more toward the

kinds of research that we need to make

sure we're doing? So, so we are thinking

about what that bundle that funding

model looks like on the research side

and on the education side as well. You

mentioned debt and and an issue that

that's become. I think what you would

find whether at Dartmouth or at Berkeley

that if you're coming to one of these

institutions from a lower income family,

uh you're probably paying no tuition and

many of them are leaving with very

little debt. So, um, to say there's all

these higher education institutions and

then to talk about averages, I think you

you would be surprised at how much

support lower income students are

getting.

>> Yeah. And I would just add to that that

I don't think education is

one-sizefits-all. And at a place like

Dartmouth, which is I would talk about

it as a different kind of ivy, it is

cheaper to go to Dartmouth if you're

lower or middle income now than it was

10 years ago. And that's because of the

philanthropy that we receive from

amazing alums and families. And that is

what we want to do. We want to make

institutions a place where anyone can go

regardless of background. Bring the best

and brightest together and send them off

without a huge debt burden. We package

without loans. A third of our students

go for free and they come out on average

making more than they would otherwise if

they hadn't gone to a school like

Dartmouth. But I think it comes down to

the institutions having some

responsibility for pushing out students

and making sure that they're not serving

them in education that then they can't

find jobs in. And so as we think about

loan burdens and others, I do believe

the institutions have a responsibility

to their students. And I think we have

to do a lot more in talking about ROI

than we do right now.

>> So just ask one follow up to that. Does

that mean that we have too many

universities in the United States and

they charge too much generally? So you

guys are leading two of the top

institutions in the United States. Are

all of the second tier, the third tier,

the fourth tier that are providing

perhaps negative ROI on the cost of

their education, do they need to kind of

get shut down or reformed or what's the

future of that?

>> I think if you aren't thinking about the

ROI and that is part of what you're

delivering, it's a fair question to ask.

And I also think that we've pushed too

many people to think that college is the

end all beall. There are different ways

to be successful in this country. I

certainly think there's a place for an

amazing elite education like Dartmouth

if we are teaching students how to think

and not what to think. But the idea that

everyone needs to go to a 4-year college

or university, I think that's outdated.

>> Let me ask you about uh different

degrees and loans and the risk that you

take. I mean, $70,000 a year tuition,

but you're not on the hook for it.

students who take these loans are on the

hook for it and their brains are not

fully developed. Would you

I can confirm this. Okay.

>> Well, the neuroscience data suggests

that your friend text isn't developed.

Boys a little bit later than girls, by

the way.

>> Yeah, you can't I did okay. Um I went to

forom. I did okay. Um the point I'm

trying to make here is shouldn't you the

university be on the hook for these

loans? And shouldn't you be responsible

for the outcomes for these students? And

would you be uh in support of having the

loans and the amount of the loans match

the desiraability of the degree and its

ability to monetize in the you know

postgraduation

>> or said differently would you guys

underwrite the loans?

>> Yeah, look I think we do at Dartmouth

because we don't our students are

packaged without loans. They don't take

out loans and in fact for a student uh

in a middle inome family lower and

middle- inome family it's about 5,000 a

year to go to Dartmouth. So we do

underwrite in that way. Now you asked

the question about other institutions

where students are coming out with high

debt and low ROI. I think it is fair to

ask what share of responsibility the

institution should take and I do think

that that's part of the reforms that we

need to think about in higher ed writ

low.

>> So you're in favor of it. I'm in favor

of the institutions having some

responsibility but and at Dartmouth we

take that responsibility very seriously.

>> Do you think they should take

responsibility? Should you take

responsibility for the outcomes? Well,

well, the word responsibility. So, I'm

I'm an economist. Is is is a

responsibility the liab the financial

liability at the end of the day or as

people have been saying, look, if if we

are not providing an economic pathway

for our students on average at Berkeley,

you're talking about Berkeley now or or

Dartmouth um you know that that people

will stop coming and they will stop

taking loans. So, that market mechanism

is working pretty well as it is and and

we are producing really wonderful

outcomes. I think the earlier question

about what about the you more than

thousand 1,000 higher ed institutions in

this country and I think there is

pressure on the whole system but um we

we are certainly making sure we have a

brand new program called social sciences

career readiness internship program and

so we are launching lots of new things

to make sure that we are providing that

kind of support. I'd push back and say I

don't think the market's working

exceptionally well because I think

students are coming out overburdened

with loans without the kind of job

prospects that we have responsibility.

>> What would happen what would happen if

we ended the federal student loan

program?

>> Yeah. I mean I think it's a interesting

thing to think about. I what I don't

want to do is throw the baby out with

the bathwater and that there are student

loan programs that are really helpful to

some students in terms of being able to

go to the school they want and to get

the education they want. Is uh is DEI

the bathwater?

>> I let me let me ask you guys actually a

question. What is the correlation

between DEI and scholarship?

>> Is there one?

>> I don't think having a diversity of

thought and thinking about merit are

mutually exclusive. I think that's a

false dichotomy. Okay.

>> We were the first Ivy League to bring

the SAT back uh at Dartmouth and many of

our peers followed. And the reason is we

looked at the data and what we sh found

was that it was a great equalizer in

finding students from lower income

backgrounds and higher income

backgrounds who are succeeding in

something that's less actually

susceptible to financial input like

letters of wreck and what you did for

the summer and a better way for us to

find lower income students who are

excelling where they are but maybe don't

have the prep or the background. So I I

think it's a false that they're mutual.

>> There was no impact to the quality of

the actual scholarship, what the

professors taught, the language that was

used, all this concept of like

microaggressions, all this stuff that

got in the way of teaching math and

science. Do you don't think that

happened?

>> No, I think that we have to focus on our

core subjects and merit. But I think the

idea that I believe in diversity. I

think we should have a diversity of

people at the d the table from lived

from lived experience to political

ideology. I think we have better

outcomes if we can sit together and push

at each other and I have conservative

views on my campus and more liberal

views on my campus and I have students

who come from veteran families and

students who come from the middle of the

country and students who come from the

coast. Bringing people together with

different perspectives allowing them to

push at each other you get the best

outcomes. And do you notice that the

schools veered away from that or

>> did we spend any period of time I'm just

curious veering away from what you just

said or no?

>> Yeah.

>> Is there nothing to see here or is

everything

>> of course no I mean I think I'd be the

first one to tell you that I think

higher education has a responsibility to

reform from within.

>> What is the reform that what happened?

>> I think we lost sight of what our

mission was. We're educational

institutions. We're not political

institutions. We're not social advocacy

organizations.

>> How did it happen? Thank you. How did it

happen?

>> And just to say when we lose sight of

that mission, people don't trust what we

produce, whether it's the students or

the knowledge.

>> How did it happen?

>> You know, there there's a lot of

theories for what exactly went wrong. I

think having strong leadership and being

clear about what your values are is a

really important point part of this. I

spent much of my academic career at the

University of Chicago and I think that's

a place that was very clear about the

fact that institutional neutrality is

the way to get the best outcomes that

it's we don't shout down speakers that

we don't set up encampments that declare

a space for one ideology

>> those are all things we've been pushing

at Dartmouth and we are excited about

where we are going and the outcomes but

we have work to do

>> Rich how should I

>> same at Berkeley

>> same at

How we doing at Berkeley, Rich?

>> Uh, hey, no, beware the caricature

problem because Berkeley undergraduates

produce more funded new businesses than

the undergraduates at any other

universities. We lift more people

further up the economic ladder than any

other university in the country. And so,

so, so the caricature problem is very

real here. Berkeley, I have been saying

very publicly that we need to I'm

agreeing with what she just said that we

need to move in the direction of view of

of institutional neutrality. I'm talking

about viewpoint diversity all the time.

Do we have some getting better to do?

You better believe we do. We were

thinking we were so tolerant. I think we

weren't very tolerant of viewpoint

diversity. And we're we have a new

course called Openness to opposing

views. It got launched this summer.

5,000 people have signed up for it. We

have something called the Berkeley

Liberty Initiative. It is exploding on

campus. Do we have people on all sides

of the spectrum? We sure do, but people

keep pointing to one side of the

spectrum. It's like, look what's going

on at today's Berkeley.

Um, how should Chimamath or I explain to

our Asian daughters or sons if they

don't make it into one of these schools

because

you have to um admit somebody for

diversity who got lower grades and a

lower SAT score. How do we explain that?

>> We don't admit in that way. We're

looking for

>> school students with great scores, great

grades, and who have grit and ambition

and allow us to bring a class together

where people can push and get make

better ideas

>> for the it's sorry it's it's been the

law since 1996 in the state of

California. We can't use race or gender

or affirmative action. It's literally

illegal. We get audited for this all the

time. So, if that's what you meant by

your question, we don't do it. And it's

part of the California master plan for

higher education that a third of our

incoming class every year are community

college transfers. They're grittier,

they're older, they're more firstgen. If

that's the diversity you're worried

about, then I have a different talking

broader not just to your universities,

but to what we've seen at other

universities. Perhaps Harvard would fall

into this category or others. And you

know, we do think about that. What are

we explaining to our kids in terms of

>> or maybe the general question what Jason

is trying to say is what message does

that give the broader American student

and the broader American parent about

what is actually happening in higher ed

when a a case like that gets litigated

to the Supreme Court.

>> Yeah. Look, again, in a place of

viewpoint diversity, you can have

different views on affirmative action

and we have different views of that on

our campus. Our goal and as we've always

done at Dartmouth is we're looking for

the best and brightest students and

that's not only just a test score or a

grade because that doesn't tell the

whole story but we're certainly bringing

students together based on all of the

things they do and we're not picking

students to fit any sort of quota or

system

>> and the University of California has

effectively been aligned with that

decision since 1997.

>> Tell us about the growth of

administrators versus professors.

There's another sort of common maybe

it's a accurate statement or a

misconception that um many of these

elite institutions in America have been

overroought by administrators and they

get in the way. They gum up the system.

They have all these ideas. They turn out

to be idiots. Ideas are idiotic. Um

that's a theory. Um

have you seen that play out at your two

fine institutions or nothing to see

there either?

>> Do you want to go first?

I I will start um we for years and we

have further to go but we have been

talking about bureaucratic burden. We

actually have an initiative and we just

call it bureaucratic burden and there is

too much of it at Berkeley. Berkeley is

a very very large organization with lots

and lots of people. So as we think about

how do we make some of the hard

decisions for for making things faster

um and we've been working very very hard

at that. clock speed of the world uh is

is is going up so fast and the clock

speed of these institutions pace for

change that gap is widening and we need

to get better at getting better. So I

promise you with AI and many other

things, it's like well academic

advising, how is that going to change

with a AI? It'll change a lot. We're

going to always need human academic

adviserss in my view, but that world is

going to change a lot. How do you

navigate what's on campus? Last point

is, you know, when you talk about the

mental health of our students, I think

if you went back to when you and I were

undergrads at our universities, the idea

that the university would would help

people with me like scaled mental health

services, they they weren't there. they

are there now. So you could say you

shouldn't be doing that but the

expectations of what we are providing

have risen quite a bit.

>> Yeah. And I'll say that I think it's a

totally fair question and we always need

to be thinking about moving our

resources more towards the academic

enterprise. I mean Dartmouth is a place

where you're in a classroom with a

faculty member and six to 20 students.

It's a very special thing that doesn't

happen at all institutions. But we also

have a lot more compliance that we have

to deal with that's come in from

government over the years that we have

to staff up to to deal with. And I like

the idea of rethinking that relationship

in a way that allows us all to do our

work better.

>> Let's talk about for one second um what

President Trump has done with his um

settlements with Colombia and the

proposed ongoing thing with Harvard.

There's going to be some settlement.

just walk us through what the

implications of that are and the cascade

effect and the waterfall as it trickles

through the you know to other

institutions and whether you guys will

have to be party to something or what

that means. Look, I believe in the

fierce independence of our educational

institutions and I worry that if we are

swaying in one direction or another

based on who is in office, then we don't

have the trust of the American people.

And I think we failed in some ways to

show that we could self-regulate and do

that ourselves. But the goal in my mind

is get to get back to a place where it's

clear that universities don't aren't

political organizations, aren't taking a

position that we are focused on bringing

the best and brightest to go out and

contribute to our democracy and we can

do that ourselves.

>> Rich.

>> Yeah. And I I think that you know if you

look at trust and confidence and when it

started to diminish across all kinds of

institutions but including higher ed you

know that that predated by quite a bit

the the election which was less than a

year ago. So I don't want to confound

things where they really shouldn't be

confounded. Why have we been losing

trust and confidence to grossly

oversimplify its cost its career and its

culture and we could go into each of

those and talk about it. the cost thing

came up, you know, are the career

opportunities there? And by culture,

it's sort of have things got too

progressive or not tolerant enough of

viewpoint diversity? Those are all

reasonable things to talk about. But um

so I think I think part of the questions

that are being asked in under this

administration and even before that,

many of them it's like, yeah, we need to

be more reflective. I I just said I

think there's too little viewpoint

diversity.

>> Let's go to let's go to culture. David,

you know, you had a um a great career at

Stanford and that was during the

politically correct era and then we saw

safe spaces trigger words and students

feeling they were being harmed by words.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on

culture on campus from your perspective

having lived through it because this

does seem to reemerge every couple of

decades.

>> Well, political correctness never ended.

It just got renamed. I mean, I think

they renamed it woke. There may have

been some other things in between. Um,

you know, Peter Teal and I wrote an

article for Stanford magazine back in, I

think it was 1995, so 30 years ago,

called the case against affirmative

action. And it was basically making the

case for completely color-blind

admissions, having it be strictly based

on merit and not taking race into

consideration. And obviously that

argument did not prevail and win the day

because we had the Supreme Court case a

couple of years ago that basically said

that I think it was at least Harvard, I

don't want to speak for every college,

but basically was still engaging in

racial discrimination. And so I think

you know that article or that argument

it clearly was losing in practice for 30

years until the Supreme Court reached

that decision. Um, so I think this is

why there's a lot of skepticism on these

issues

>> and I think you have a wave of

presidents and I think leadership

matters coming to the forefront and

talking about what we need to do in this

space. At my inauguration two years ago

I just finished my second year and I'm

the third longest serving Ivy president

right now. Um, just a side note, there's

been a bit of turnover a little bit. So,

tell us like did you watch the Claudine

Gay testimony and what did you think

when you were watching that train wreck

happen?

>> Yeah. What was going on in the group

chat

>> while it was hurdling? Yeah, the Ivy

group chat.

>> Ivy group was brick wall. Look, I mean,

I think we have a responsibility to be

different kinds of campuses. And the

testimony, I think, was an outcome of

being a campus that wasn't protecting

the people, wasn't inclusive, and wasn't

calling balls and strikes when we need

to. And we've been very clear at

Dartmouth that we value free expression,

but your free expression can't rob

others, which means no shouting speakers

down and no taking over parts of space

and declaring it for one ideology.

That's not free expression.

>> It's just John Stewart Mill's philosophy

of spheres of influence just don't

intersect with others. But let me sorry,

let me just ask one.

>> No, I just want to follow. Rich, isn't

the like best part of Berkeley shouting

over the speakers?

[Laughter]

I'm trying to get through traffic over

there sometimes and you've got a

thousand students on the freeway. It's

like kind of the tradition.

>> There's a difference between

protest protest protest is fine speech.

I think that's a really important

distinction and it's really important

for leaders to be clear. Protest is

fine. I have protests outside my office

all the time. I have students chalking

messages. That's fine. But the problem

is is when one person's free speech

takes precedence over another. And

nobody's disagreeing with that. The

Heckler's veto is something we talk a

lot about. We are coming down on people.

It's not appropriate. Right? So people

are outspoken. People are you know

that's part of Berkeley's tradition. I

will often say to people free speech

university hundreds of ways and places

to express your free speech rights and

no more tents and no more blocking say

their gate. So it's sort of like look we

we need parameters that help this to be

as constructive as possible. But the

John Stewart Mill Marketplace for for

ideas, we're trying to keep it as open

as we can. And and that is something I'm

just going to I worry about the idea for

our faculty and our community. The idea

that we're going into a world where

there are acceptable questions and

unacceptable questions.

>> That's a bad problem. That's 1984.

>> But going upstream, and I just want to

go upstream with you guys for a second.

Where's this coming from? And what's

going on in K through2?

>> Yeah. I think we don't talk about K

through2 enough. I think we really have

to go back. Our students are landing on

our campus without having civics,

without having practice engaging in

difficult conversations. I mean, I think

we really have to move backwards and not

just think about the university setting

because we're getting them much later.

And for the we train all of our students

at Dartmouth go through Dartmouth

dialogues to learn how to have

conversations with people you disagree

with. I believe it's like a muscle. You

have to train it through practice.

>> Are they showing up basically just

unprepared? A lot of them through COVID

didn't have these skills. And we've seen

this in different ways where you at one

point when we were in school, if you had

a fight with someone, you'd have it face

to face. Then it went to text messaging.

Now it goes to you leaving a long

voicemail on someone's a voice memo and

then not even engaging. And if anyone

who has teenagers out there, when I tell

my 14-year-old to pick up the phone and

call someone, what are you talking

about? You know, we have to get those

muscles back. And a university setting,

a college setting is the place to do it.

We're not just about knowledge transfer.

We're about forming the identities of

our

>> to Freeberg's point though, I just want

to ask the point of question. I think it

came out today, but uh high schoolers

are graduating woefully unprepared. It's

not just the skills of debate. This is

fundamental math, science, English, they

can't read, they can't add,

>> they can't write.

>> What what is happening in our primary

and secondary high school education

system? What is broken there that's

delivering these kids to you? so

academically unprepared. I I I I

understand emotionally, but let's just

first address the first one.

>> Why?

>> I think they're they're both. And I

mean, I'm not an expert in K through 12.

I don't have all the answers there, but

I'll say that one thing is that we're

not getting rid of income gaps in in

achievement in K through 12. Students

come into kindergarten at very different

levels depending on their parents income

and they leave at those same levels. If

we were doing something important and

successful in terms of education in the

US, we would see differences and changes

there. And I think we have a lot of work

to do to think through a K- through2

system that's not serving the entire

>> Is there any lowhanging fruit there? Is

it like having the ability to have more

tutors, extending the school day to 5:00

p.m. having summer sessions? If you

could as an, you know, educator and and

somebody who works in this field, is

there any lowhanging fruit that we could

say, "Hey, President Trump, we need a,

you know, 25 billion more dollars a year

to do this."

>> Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a great

question. I would say one thing is

making sure that we're putting good

teachers in the classroom.

>> School unions are a problem. What does

good mean?

>> Competent and able to teach at different

grade levels and the ability to

>> measure their outcome.

>> Hold students accountable and push them

forward. And my research before I became

uh a college president, I study

performance under stress and anxiety.

So, it's been helpful the last few

years. But one of my findings is around

teachers uh especially in lower grades

being really uh unprepared in terms of

math competency and transferring that on

to to young students.

>> The teachers themselves don't know how

to add.

>> Well, I think there's a very

>> No, I mean I think it but what's

interesting is there's there's probably

a very good teacher emerging which is

AI. How are you guys thinking about

whether higher education should even

exist and what the role of higher

education and classrooms and teachers

and textbooks are in a world where I

have a personal tutor available to me to

walk me through the knowledge transfer

at my own pace to think critically? AI

seems to have the potential to play so

much of the role of what higher

education and even K- through2 education

has played historically. Are you guys

calculating for your strategic planning

with AI and what does it do?

>> Absolutely. Well, I'll start I'll start

with that. Um, so my daughter just

graduated 3 months ago. I have two kids.

She just finished college and I'm

astonished by how much she has developed

and I think most parents would have a

similar experience. And I think if you

stripped out sort of the knowledge, the

part that you could easily access with

AI, she would still astonish me in how

much she has developed. that's a

residential university and all the

interactions and all the things and the

challenges and and and the the the

overcoming them. And so, you know, the

the idea people were predicting with

with massive open online courses the

death of universities 15 years ago. And

I really think that when you start

realizing that's what makes it so darn

transformative and at least any AI I've

seen so far is not getting close to what

we're able to do. I think these uniquely

human skills, there is such an important

part of a residential community that

allows that to come together. Um, I'm a

big uh proponent of of how we think

about integrating AI into what we're

doing. Dartmouth actually was the

birthplace of the term artificial

intelligence in a 1956 summer conference

where people got together and talked. We

developed basic. We were uh the first

institution to put it in all the math

classes. I thinking with technology is

so important, but there is a human

element of developing young people 17 to

25 that universities really can excel

at. And I think that's one of the

reasons that the culture issue and the

idea that we're teaching students what

to think instead of how to think I think

has hit such a an important point is

because this is exactly what we should

be doing. We should be thinking teaching

those kind of critical skills that allow

students not to be in a safe space but a

brave space where they learn how to be

uncomfortable and interact with others.

>> Fair enough. But I I predict AI will

play an important role and I predict

that the teachers unions are going to

fight tooth and nail from seeing AI show

up and it's going to challenge our

ability to kind of provide this

advantage for our students. And

meanwhile in other countries around the

world particularly looking across the

Pacific things are going to be very

different than they are here. What is

the conversation with the teachers

unions who are so politically connected

who can be so troublesome and we saw

this recently with the long shoreman's

strike that happened where they didn't

want to have automation that would

provide faster lower cost unloading and

loading of the docks and so on. it made

it really hard. What's going to happen

with respect to the teachers unions and

their ability to kind of move through

this accelerating transformation that's

going to be underway?

>> Well, I'll I'll start. I think

categories of labor across the economy

are going to be under threat. Um, so

it's it's easy to start with thinking

about organized labor, but not organized

labor is going to be terrifically under

stress. And I think that a a lot of

people are going to be pushing back on

on what's what's about to happen. So I I

think that's that's the larger frame.

It's really how jobs across white

collar. In fact, I think a lot more

unrepresented

jobs are going to disappear as a result

of AI than represented jobs over the

next 10 years. Um we don't know. But I I

I think o overframing in terms of

representation, at least for me, is

missing really the core issue here.

>> There's been a lot of talk um about

recent graduates having a hard time uh

finding jobs and that for at least male

students, the degree versus non-deree in

terms of unemployment has now shown no

difference. It used to be if you had a

degree, you had roughly double the

chance of getting a job. Are you seeing

that in the ground? I know you have

elite institutions, but are you starting

to see that even at your incredible

universities and are you concerned?

>> Yeah, I mean I think again we have to

talk about what the future of work is.

We haven't seen that at Dartmouth. Our

students are succeeding in getting jobs,

but again we're not just teaching

students how to code. Everyone who gets

an engineering degree also takes classes

across the sciences, across humanities.

We're teaching them how to think across

difference and in in many ways which I

think are these uniquely human skills I

hope that will be important for being a

leader.

>> What's on that small list of uniquely

human skills or attributes that you most

want to get into those students?

>> I really do believe that the ability to

listen and have a conversation and speak

face to face and have eye contact to

have empathy to understand that even if

I don't agree with you, you are a human.

we have these things together and we're

working towards some sort of positive

democracy I would say is at the top of

the list.

>> We've been working with that with the

two Davids. In fact, we've been working

with that.

>> It's a muscle. I think you can build it

over time.

>> They're getting there.

>> Yeah. Look, there's there's no question

I was talking to to an alum and somebody

who's close uh very senior and and I

said, "What what should be in our

strategic plan?" And he said, "Keeping

humanity relevant." If that's not a big

deal, I I don't know what is. And as we

think about the sorts of skills that

we're going to need in our students, I

think, you know, a sense of agency is is

something that pops to mind for me. It's

like a sense of agency. I kind of I I

can act on the world. I'm not act purely

acted upon and and it's partly my

responsibility and that so goes so far

beyond the way we think about education

at least traditionally as mostly

knowledge transmission. And and I think

we can do that in our classrooms. we

have some curriculum that

>> they do perceive themselves as victims

at times.

>> Let me um let me maybe shift it for the

last question uh and end maybe where we

started to end. One of the things that

has happened is that with the cost of of

higher ed, there's been the emergence

and the importance of endowments. And as

these endowments have emerged, there's

been a perception and then those things

have been laid bare that there are side

doors and back doors and all kinds of

different ways in which to get into

schools.

The Varsity Blues thing is like a

perfect example of just the manipulation

of the system that just again to your

point, people lose trust. um what role

do endowments play? How much influence

do they exert when it's good? Um when

they can't fund a budget, what happens?

Uh just walk us through that cycle where

there's a perception that they could be

doing more. Harvard's got a $55 billion

endowment. Um

but just walk us through that for each

of your institutions, how reliant you

guys are on this and and the impact it

makes on you being able to be totally

meritocratic.

Yeah, I mean I will say very clearly

that we are looking for the best and

brightest students. Our endowment is a

way that allows us to fund students

regardless of their ability to pay and

our financial aid we from our endowment

hundreds of millions of dollars each

year to support students so that they

come out without loans and they're ready

to go and that is because people believe

in the institution. So it is a way an

important way that private citizens give

back to support what they're doing. And

I think it is an extremely important to

what we do. It also funds our research.

There's a lot of talk about indirect

costs and what those actually mean. We

lose money on every research dollar we

bring in. We spend our endowment to

create the buildings, to create all of

the compliance. You can't make

discoveries in the middle of Main

Street. You've got to do that in a

scientific enterprise where we are

putting the skin in the game. And I

think it's great that people are giving

back to be able to do that. But it

doesn't drive our decisions. What I

think of it is is a support to do the

good work we need to do.

>> Yeah. And if I may just add a little

bit, I know we're out of time, but I

think, you know, our endowment per

student is is far far lower. And like

can it's it's going into scholarships

for our students and the accessibility.

It's like what's the effective cost of

these educations even with our lower

lower prices. And also on the research

end, right, we've got something called

the innovative genomics institute. A lot

of that was philanthropic capital that

came in and went into an endowment and

crisper comes out of it and some other

things that are changing the world,

right? So so it's really important that

we have that kind of funding both on the

education and research side

>> and and I just say that there's multiple

inputs into the system. I think the

endowment is important. I think having a

really robust partnership with

government that makes sense is really

important for the American innovations

and discoveries that we're doing. And

then for people who can pay the tuition,

paying tuition is another aspect of

that. But all of those come in to to try

and create what we're trying to create.

>> Before we wrap, we've um pointed out a

lot of problems and challenges and left

you guys in a kind of defense state. I I

want to just give each of you an

opportunity to talk about what you're

excited about at the university that

you're leading. Uh maybe just take a

minute. What what gives you kind of

optimism? What are you encouraged by?

What are you looking forward to

accomplishing? Uh as we kind of uh

finish up the segment.

>> Well, thanks. I'll start. You know, true

of Dartmouth as it is for Berkeley. Uh

we view these things, we hope you do,

too, as some of society's most valuable

assets. To what use shall we put them

over the next decade? That's sort of

what we've been entrusted with, right?

And so if you said on the education

front um for example economic mobility

right what would it look like to double

down on economic mobility when a third

of our our students are already transfer

students from from junior from from

community colleges it's sort of like wow

could we get even better at that I think

we can and we can do better at that

right and as we think about the research

it's like what are these fundamental

seismic shifts you're thinking about the

biology revolution or the AI revolution

or or planetary and human health I mean

these are things that you I believe we

all need these institutions to be

contributing to massively and that's

part of what's going into these

strategic plans. So um I think you

should be rooting for us.

>> We are rooting for you.

>> Yeah. And I would say a few things. One

uh Dartmouth has uh the most rural

academic medical center in the country.

We serve a huge population of people not

connected to the institution. And I'm

excited about how we double down and

make health systems better. I think

that's such an important part of what we

do as universities. And the second thing

I'll say is that I am very excited about

our students. Just one other thing that

Dartmouth is doing that is so

impressive. We have one of the only

bipartisan studentrun political unions

in the country co-chared by the

Dartmouth Conservatives and the

Dartmouth Democrats. And those students

are changing the culture at

institutions. Last year we had a debate

between Kellyanne Conway and Donna

Brazil. We had uh Cornell West and

Robbie George. They're dealing with DEI,

immigration. They are talking about the

issues and putting it out there and

they're creating a culture where it's

cool to have conversations and be

uncomfortable instead of shout each

other down. We should be excited about

that because they are the next leaders

of our free world.

>> Awesome. Thank you both. You took on

tough roles. We appreciate you being

here today. Thank you. Thanks for

coming.

Thank you. Thank you so much. That was

awesome. Appreciate it.