Christine have you ever bought something

and thought wow this product actually

made my life better totally and usually

I find those products through wire

cutter yeah but you work here we both do

we're the hosts of The Wire cutter show

from the New York Times it's our job to

research test and vet products and then

recommend our favorites we'll talk to

members of our team of 140 journalists

to bring you the very best product

recommendations in every category that

will actually make your life better the

wire cutter show available wherever you

get podcasts

[Music]

from New York Times opinion this is the

Ezra Klein show

[Music]

it is Wednesday August 21st I spent last

night at the second night of the

Democratic National Convention which was

a night of Heavy Hitters in the

Democratic Party it was a night of

Bernie Sanders of Chuck Schumer of JB

pritsker it was a night of Doug mhof who

gave a truly lovely speech about KLA

Harris but it was above all the night of

the Obamas and we'll talk about both of

them here but it was specifically I

would say the night of Michelle Obama

please welcome former First Lady

Michelle

Obama when she came out the crowd warned

her in a way it roared for no one else

at night in a way I've not heard it Roar

at this convention in a way it would not

even Roar for her husband a couple of

minutes

later hello

Chicago and the beginning of her speech

was very different than the beginning of

any other Democrat speech at this

convention something wonderfully magical

is in the air isn't it

yeah you know we're feeling it here in

this Arena but it's spreading all across

this country we love a familiar feeling

that's been buried too deep for far too

long you know what I'm talking

about it's the contagious power of

Hope the anticipation

the energy the exhilaration of once

again being on the cusp of a brighter

day the chance to Vanquish the Demons of

fear Division and hate that have

consumed us and continue pursuing The

Unfinished promise of this great nation

the dream that our parents and

grandparents fought and died and

sacrificed

for America hope is making a

comeback so I want to say a few things

about

this in this

speech which was one of the great pieces

of political oratory I have

heard the best piece of oratory at the

convention so far probably the best

there will be at the

convention Joe Biden didn't

exist you would think Donald Trump was

President right now in Michelle Obama

speech she did not do the thing other

Democrats are doing of talking about Joe

Biden's record of talking about his

sacrifice but nor did she portray Biden

and nor would Biden be portrayed across

this night as the inheritor of Obama

ISM what she did and what her husband

would do a little bit later in the

evening is pass the torch of their

movement not to Joe Biden but to KLA

Harris and Tim Walls and Michelle

Obama's speech was much more explicit

about this because functionally what she

argued was that since Obama left since

they left the White House we have been

in the Trump era in the emotional

structure of the Trump era and only now

was there really the possibility to

Vanquish it I'm joined here by my great

producer elas isth to talk about the

second night of the Democratic National

Convention Elias thank you for being

here it's great to be here so I wanted

to start with a moment on Joe Biden

because like as you said Michelle Obama

didn't mention him in her speech but

Barack Obama did and I thought the way

he honored him his choice of language

was pretty interesting Joe and I come

from different

backgrounds but we became

brothers and as we worked together for

eight sometimes pretty tough

years what I came to admire most about

Joe wasn't just his smarts his

experience it was his

empathy and his

decency and his hard earned resilience

his unshakable belief that everyone in

this country deserves a fair

shot and over the last four years those

are the

values America has needed most

so he makes a point of saying that he

and Biden are different but he also says

that Biden is what America needed the

last four years what did you make of

that there's a dynamic that you often

see in startup

companies they have as their first

leader their first CEO or founder this

Visionary charismatic leader right the

ideas guy Steve

Jobs and when that person passes from

the scene re fires gets pushed out

whatever it is they are often followed

in leadership by a stabilizer a more

managerial type somebody who doesn't

have their Glitz and their Glamour and

their Charisma and all their giant new

ideas but knows how to run an

organization was maybe their number two

before and can sort of

pull together something that had become

sort of too diffuse and was running too

hot

I I hear a bit of that in that

description of Joe Biden that what Biden

brought and remember I mean Biden runs

in

2020 I believe if Biden had been the

nominee in 2016 he would have crushed

Donald Trump and a lot of how we

understand American politics in American

political history would have been

different if you want to see a great

convention speech by the way go watch

Joe Biden's convention speech from the

2016 convention from Hillary Clinton's

convention he absolutely wrecks Donald

Trump his cynicism is

unbounded his lack of empathy and

compassion can be summed up in a phrase

I suspect he's most proud of having made

famous you're

fired I mean really I'm not joking think

about that think about that think about

everything you

learned as a child no matter where you

are

raised How can there be

pleasure in saying you're

fired he's trying to tell us he cares

about the middle class give me a break

that's a bunch of

malarkey I watched that speech and

thought this guy would beat Trump by

seven points so he runs in 2020 in a

different context but he is the

ultimately the successor as a Democratic

president to to Barack Obama and he's

not Obama what he represents is not what

made Obama an agent and a representation

of change what he represents is a kind

of return to normaly right it's the

pandemic Donald Trump is crazy here's

Joe Biden he's 77 he's been in politics

forever he's the most known quantity in

American political life he is calm he is

decent he is somebody who calls you when

there's a death in your family you can

trust him right he's not here to upend

the entire order that might have been

the right thing for 2020 but one of the

things interesting last night about the

Obama speeches is that they were passing

the mantle of change hope and change to

Kamala in a way that made it seem to me

like they believed that Biden was a sort

of pause from that right he was

something else which I think is actually

accurate Biden did a lot in terms of

policy change but in terms of what he

represented politically he was stability

he was normaly he was decency and

there's nothing wrong with that but he

wasn't the forward thrust of the

political tendency Barack Obama created

in 2008 he was

stabilization after the rupture of

Donald Trump and the pandemic and now

the sort of argument they're making

about kamla Harris isn't that it is time

to go back to a normal presidency but

it's time to go forward in the thing

that that they either started or were at

least part of so let's talk about that

thing you called it Obama ISM at the top

what is Obama ISM o that's a big

question one place I think to start with

it is to say that it is not Obama's

presidency and this was always a very

tricky place for Obama himself but I

understand Obama ISM as a form of

politics that rewrites the American

story to be at its core about pluralism

and social progress Obama ism is a

recognition that Americans hate how

politics feels right in that that first

204 speech this

dissolving of the reality of red and

blue America which I think there is a

very real reality to red and blue

America but Obama's ongoing point that

who we are in politics and who we are in

our lives feel very different from each

other that the people we are when we're

watching Fox News and MSNBC and then who

we are in our church

and our little league fields and our

ptas are so different from each other

and that the goal of politics should be

to make us feel in our politics the way

we feel in our communities right to

bring out the better

angels that are so endlessly

evident if you walk through an American

Community but then seem so

absent when you end up in politics but

then there there was also this effort to

shift the American story remember that

Obama ISM arises after George W bush and

in 2004 in one of the real low points in

my lifetime for American liberalism when

George W bush wins re-election there is

this huge narrative that what has

happened is Democrats have lost the

Heartland they've become

unpatriotic John krey is framed as this

french-speaking Cosmopolitan who you

can't really trust and Obama comes in

and he's a black man with the middle

name

Hussein who lives in

Chicago and spent much of his upbringing

abroad right it is everything that is

easy to paint as un American in the

George W bush era and what he does is he

retells the American story and puts him

and people like him at the center of it

the American story is a story of an

expanding moral Circle it is a story of

social justice movements it is a story

of real realizing that we have bonds

with people who don't look like us or

sound like us or think like us and that

the true Americans the people who are

the real Patriots are the people who've

endlessly fought in every generation to

make what America is more like what the

Declaration of Independence says it is

going to be and Obama ISM mattered

because Obama ISM one and it showed that

Democrats could reclaim that

patriotism now when you govern that's

not what you govern over but that's what

his politics were about they were about

speaking to the anger and disappointment

people had and how politics felt and

they were about reclaiming a fundamental

Narrative of America and patriotism for

a rising multiethnic

Multicultural political tendency that

did not have the numbers to Wi elections

in

1988 but did by 2008 and does now Obama

actually directly spoke to that idea in

a speech that this is a tendency that

can win our politics have become so

polarized these days that all of us

across the political Spectrum seem so

quick to assume the worst in others

unless they agree with us on every

single

issue we start thinking that the only

way to win is to scold and shame and out

yell the other

side and after a while regular folks

just tune

out or they don't bother to vote

[Music]

now that approach may work for the

politicians who just want

attention and thrive on

division but it won't work for

us to make progress on the things we

care about the things that really affect

people's

lives we we need to remember that we've

all got our blind spots and

contradictions and and

prejudices and that if we want to win

over those who aren't yet ready to

support our candidates we need to listen

to their

concerns and maybe learn something in

the

[Music]

process a after

all if a parent or grandparent

occasionally says something that makes

us

cringe we we don't automatically assume

they're bad

people we recogniz ize that the world is

moving

fast that they need time and maybe a

little encouragement to catch

up our fellow citizens deserve the same

Grace we hope they'll extend to

[Music]

us that's how we can build a true

Democratic majority the idea that if we

just listen to each other that if our

politics was less divisive that this

could build a true Democratic majority

is that his pitch do you think he really

believes that Obama like every other

politician is not so naive as to think

his politics are an 8020 or 9010

proposition even in 2008 I think he's

got something like a seveno popular vote

margin what Obama does believe is that

there's a big middle in American

politics and that you can win elections

and even win governing majorities

remember he got 60 seats in the Senate

you can win big majorities and you can

win elections by reaching out to the

people who are there to be reached out

to and by the way those are not all

people who believe in and vote for

Donald Trump they're not Maga supporters

necessarily right Republican opposition

to Barack Obama was intense during

Obama's presidency what they are the

people Obama is reaching out to there

are people who just don't like the whole

tone of politics

right they don't like the bitterness

they don't like the division they don't

like the polarization the people they

know who are into politics are

unbelievably annoying they don't like

them but I want to pull something else

out of that because that clip you played

that was the core of Barack Obama's

speech that was and he would go on to do

this very explicitly a few paragraphs

later that was Barack Obama calling back

directly to his 2004 speech to his

original concerns about polarization

about pluralism about our ability to

speak to each other there was just a big

piece in New York Magazine about obam

cor which was the sort of liberal

cultural

interpretation of Obama ISM I I sort of

disagree with this interpretation but

but this is the way they framed it it's

Hamilton it's parks and wreck it's a

bunch of culture you know it's fight

song although I really associate that

with Hillary Clinton Obamacare though is

not Obama ISM Obamacare is this thing

liberals took out of Obama ISM and made

their own and they they sort of took

this teleological Rising multiethnic

majority idea turned it into a political

Theory and into culture and made it into

something about how they were on this

Unstoppable march to a form of dominance

in America you're sort of on the train

or you were retrograde and being left

behind and Obama ISM in the speech Obama

gives at the4

that makes him into a national figure in

his 2008 campaign it wasn't about how

liberals were right at least not

exclusively it was about how you talk to

people in politics and how you frame a

politics it is about people who don't

agree with you in a way the most

contradictory political move from Obama

ISM was Hillary Clinton's deplorables

comment it's also for people who don't

remember this why when Obama was caught

at a fundraiser talking about how people

after their Manufacturing get hollowed

out become bitter and cling to guns and

religion that this was such a big

problem for him because that was also in

real contradiction to the way he talked

about talking to people and what Obama

was sort of reprising here look you're

not going to convince Donald Trump but

there is a way of talking to your

neighbors and a way of talking to people

in politics who disagree with you and

who are never going to agree with you

and are never going to be a down thee

line hardcore liberal on every issue

that is about making politics work and

making this country feel like a place we

can all live in and one mistake I think

Democrats made at many different times

was he sort of dropped that part of it

they took the winning but they didn't

take that part about how do you talk to

people who feel like they're

losing how do you include people who

don't feel

included and he was sort of a genius at

this one thing that was different in his

speech from Michelle Obama I think is he

was actually making an argument to the

party and to KLA Harris about how he

thinks they should campaign and how he

thinks they should campaign and talk to

people who don't agree with him and he's

basically saying that he wants to see

them bring back parts of what made his

early politics work that in many ways

Democratic party has dropped I mean that

that part about scolding people and

reading them out of your movement that's

a critique not of the right it's a

critique of the

left so I wanted to move now to Michelle

Obama's speech she talked thought about

values and the meaning of America but in

a way that felt pretty different from

her husband's speech you see those

values have been passed on through

Family Farms in Factory towns through

Treeline streets and crowded tenements

through prayer groups and National Guard

units and social studies

classrooms those were the values my

mother poured into me until her very

last breath

KLA Harris and I built our lives on

those same foundational

values even though our mothers grew up

an ocean

apart they shared the same belief in the

promise of this

country that's

why her mother moved here from India at

19 it's why she taught kamla about

Justice about the obligation to lift

others up about our responsibility to

give more than we

take she'd often tell her daughter don't

sit around and complain about things do

something so what do you hear there in

terms of Michelle Obama's vision of

Obama ISM one of the Striking things

about Michelle Obama's

speech was that even more so than at

past conventions and this had been a

dynamic that emerged over I would say a

series of democratic

conventions Michelle Obama

represents a related but different

political lineage now and

tradition to Barack

Obama Barack Obama is of the Obamas the

one who has this expansive optimistic

vision of America Michelle Obama is the

harder-edged

version of their politics very famously

she said when he was winning the

nomination the first time that this was

the first time she'd been proud of her

country Michelle Obama is the part of

this it does not believe America always

does the right thing that believes there

is quite a lot of racism in America

quite a lot of class war in America that

that sees America not as an arc of

History bending towards justice but as a

fight that you might lose at any minute

and that was very much what this the

speech was about to do something refrain

that was very much her argument towards

the end of the speech where she began

telling people they're going to be bad

polls and you cannot fall apart they are

going to try to destroy kamla Harris and

you cannot let them you cannot wait to

be asked to participate in this campaign

very much separately from Obama Barack

Obama who is all about the better angels

of American nature Michelle Obama is one

of the two who tends to focus on the

darker

Angels Demons of American nature and in

a way she was passing her torch somewhat

separately from her husband's torch to

kamla Harris she was saying that kamla

Harris is like her that kamla Harris

comes from a family like Michelle Obama

which is a different kind of family than

Barack Obama came from that kamla Harris

has Michelle

Obama's political history a fighting

forward in a country that was very like

not going to recognize her developing

the toughness and even this cynicism at

times of being a warrior and so for the

part of the party that actually in a way

sort of believes what Michelle Obama

believes about America rather than what

Barack Obama believes about America that

was the part of the party was being

spoken to here I think after the Trump

years that part of the party is bigger

in a way Michelle Obama's view of this

feels Less in acronis to a lot of people

than Barack Obama's sunnier View Trump

in many ways was a reputation of parts

of the Barack Obama view right I don't

think it robs it of its power but it

robs it of its almost teleological force

and here's Michelle Obama saying yeah

the person who can win this fight

because it is actually a fight is kamla

Harris because she comes from the

lineage like I do in this case like a

matriarchal lineage of people who've

been in this fight and climbing this

mountain and were never given anything

and now understand what it's going to

take to

win so have we come a long way from when

they go low we go high or is there more

continuity here these were not when they

go low we go high

speeches there was a moment in Michelle

Obama's speech where she seemed to

actually update that formula where she

began to talk not about high and low but

small and big and let me tell you this

going small is never the

answer going small is the opposite of

what we teach our kids going small is

petty it's unhealthy and quite frankly

it's

unpresidential Trump is small there's a

smallness to him his smallness is

unpresidential KLA Harris and Tim Walls

they're big they're big-hearted but it

wasn't when they go low we go high both

Michelle Obama and Barack Obama went low

there were real elbows thrown gr at

Donald Trump lowest maybe was in Barack

Obama's speech where he talked about

Donald Trump's obsession with crowd

sizes and then he made a a series of

sort of measuring motions with his hands

that suggested I would say and certainly

this was how it was received in the

arena that what Donald Trump was

fundamentally worried about was not

actually the size of his

crows both Obamas were much more in the

slipstream of where the party is now of

Donald Trump of treating him as

dangerous yes but comic and

ridiculous and old I mean Barack Obama

had a line that his act is getting stale

Michelle Obama talked about the

presidency being one of those black jobs

that Donald Trump talks about who's

going to tell him that the job he's

currently seeking might just be one of

those black

jobs so you said a moment ago that

Michelle Obama was passing the torch to

kamla Harris in this specific way but

what about Barack Obama how does Harris

fit into his vision of Obama ISM I think

this is really interesting and I mean

we're going to see because she is still

shaping who she is going to be on the

national

stage but while part of Harris's own

story is she's a very early suppor of

Barack Obama she endorses him as a

California politician when many people

don't she goes to Iowa over New Years in

8 to you know be out there campaigning

for him in the snow Harris's politics

are quite different than his and when

she is out there on the campaign Trail

right now she does not sound like Barack

Obama in 2008 or

2004 the applaus lines for Harris when

she says I am a prosecutor I put bad

people behind bars and I know Donald

Trump's type that is not Obama ISM

that's something else what's interesting

to me is that of the two of them Tim

wall is the one that has a very Obama

likee take Tim Walls is the one who is

actually playing with his own

stereotypes in an interesting way when

Obama used to be like look my name's

Barack Hussein Obama and I'm skinny and

I got funny ears and all these things

that might make you mistrust me in a

funny way while that was aimed outward

walls has been doing the same thing

aimed inward at the Democratic Coalition

like I'm a military man I'm a football

coach I you know come from a small rural

community you know I'm a like a white

guy who wears flannel and fixes your car

and where I come from we believe in

neighborliness and where I come from we

believe in helping each other and I help

found the you know the LGBT Alliance at

a small fairly rural school when that

was not a thing many people were doing

right walls with his these other people

are weird and politics doesn't have to

feel like this it shouldn't feel like

this we can just take care of each other

and be nice to each other and listen to

each other and we don't need to be

pulled in by these weirdos over here the

sort of mix of telling a story about

yourself that defies what people would

think of you and using that Defiance to

then make an argument that American

politics doesn't actually fit into the

boxes people put it into that's Obama

ISM and Obama's moment on the stage last

night where he said let me let me tell

you something I love this

guy Tim is the kind of person who should

be in politics

it sounded very genuine not him saying

Tim Walls is a great public servant

who's you know passed a lot of great

policy in Minnesota but Tim Walls like

that dude's great so Harris is different

than Obama which I think is important

you know it's a different era but

there's a strain of Obama ISM in her

there's a very potent strain of it in

her running mate and then again I I

think Harris is in the lineage of

Michelle Obama right now more than she

is in in Barack Obama and I don't think

it's an accident that Michelle Obama's

speech which just was extraordinary was

the one that connected so powerfully

last night it wasn't just because of how

good the speech was but it was because

it felt very real to the moment right

that feeling the articulated feelings of

fear and despair and anger and the need

to actually have a fight that vanquishes

Donald Trump and the forces he

represents whether or not you believe

that is possible that is authentic to

the way kamla Harris talks about

politics and people feel feel about her

so it is funny right you know I think

Barack Obama's natural relationship here

is not the top of the ticket but the

bottom of it and Michelle Obama who in

many ways has risen to represent a huge

part of the democratic Coalition in a

way that would not have been anticipated

in maybe 2008 she's the one who did the

direct passing of the torch to the the

top of the ticket so in terms of Harris

and the future of this movement I'd be

remiss if I didn't ask you about a very

different part of Barack Obama's speech

because it hits on something that is

near and dear to your heart and in doing

that we can't just point to what we've

already

accomplished we can't just rely on the

ideas of the past we need to chart a new

way forward to meet the challenges of

today and kamla understands this she

knows for example that if we want to

make it easier for more young people to

buy a home we need to build more units

and clear away some of the out dated

laws and regulations that made it harder

to build homes for working people in

this country that is a priority and

she's put out a bold new plan to you

just

that I love it welcome to the abundance

agenda Barack Obama so I noted this in

yesterday's DNC dispatch which is that

it was very striking to me that when you

looked at the kamla Harris fact sheet

for her Economic Policy

announcements increasing housing Supply

came first

how she was going to do that wasn't I

think 100% clear how much power the

federal government has to do that is not

always 100% clear but that was what came

first the problem is housing the problem

in housing is Supply she also has

subsidy ideas but that was not what she

front-loaded and here it was so notable

to me that the first

policy argument Obama makes is about

increasing housing Supply the Democratic

par is becoming more yimi I mean there's

no other way of putting that and by the

way it's not like Democrats are the only

ones to have made housing a major part

of their convention if you go back to JD

Vance's speech he also talks about

housing but what he ends up saying is

the answer for

housing is getting rid of immigrants and

if you look at project

2025 they're really making arguments

about why you want to maintain control

of housing stock at the local level

Donald Trump himself has been a very big

backer and defender of single family

zoning and meanwhile the Democratic

party which if you look at the places it

governs has been terrible in housing is

intellectually moving into the other

position where it is saying the problem

in housing is Supply there was something

that went out on the Joe Biden White

House Twitter feed that said the problem

in housing is that we need to build

build build it takes time for policy to

catch up to intellectual consensus and

rhetorical currence and so I think it

will take time for this to express

itself but I see this as genuinely huge

both that Democrats have decided housing

is this Central of a problem that it is

coming first for them and that they have

correctly I want to say this correctly

come to the view that the problem is

Supply the problem is we're not building

enough housing and that is something

that in part Democrats are responsible

for with too much red tape and too much

outdated process and too much regulation

and this is a place where the government

doesn't just need to help it needs to in

many cases get out of the way you could

see it in Harris's policies and you

heard it from Barack Obama in this

passing of the torch to the Future right

this is what a new idea is and in fact

it actually is a new idea for the

Democratic party this is not where the

Democratic party was even in the Obama

era at least not at this level of

centrality so from a policy perspective

I was

thrilled as a last question I wanted to

ask you about a moment of Barack Obama's

speech that really struck me it's when

he described a kind of spiritual

emptiness that he sees afflicting people

we live in a time of such confusion and

ranker with a culture that puts a

premium on things that don't

last money Fame

status

likes we chase the approval of strangers

on our

phones we build all manner of walls and

fences around ourselves and then we

wonder why we feel so

alone we don't trust each other as much

because we don't take the time to know

each other and in that space between us

politicians and algorithms teach us to

caricature each other it's an argument

that I've heard more often from figures

like JD Vance and the post liberals why

do you think he wanted to go there I

think the post liberals as they they now

get called have talked themselves into

believing that they were the first

people to worry about spiritual

emptiness in America and they just

weren't look I'm a pretty unabashed

defender of Obama and Obama

ISM and I think that a lot of the

narrative that has taken hold about what

his politics were what he did what his

political movement represented just

wrong this idea that what was happening

in the Obama era and in the Obama

elections was his unrelenting

technocracy it's just not accurate it is

hard to solve the problems and even

correctly talk about the problems of

modernity it always has

been the Obamas didn't invent this

either we have been worrying about this

talking about this for decades now

loneliness atomization the breakdown of

the American Family the decline of

organized religion the line of

communities you know going back to sort

of like Robert putnam's bowling alone

like modernity is not well oriented

towards Community people move around all

across the country not all people but

many people live further from families

or families are smaller they are not as

connected to Civic institutions to

religious institutions we stare at our

phones social media is a simulacrum of

human connection it is one of the only

things you can do in which you're in

constant communication with others and

end up feeling so much lonelier and so

much less understood and what I see

happening in a lot of Corners right now

is a belief that this is all somehow

newly discovered and not just newly

discovered but that it has these simple

answers right that oh the problem is

just manufacturing jobs that went to

China and if you just change trade

policy maybe you reverse these

problems and you don't and you can't and

it's a multi-headed

Hydra and Obama but not only Obama has

always spoken to this great politicians

great I think political

figures speak to the

character of the country at any given

moment they just they don't just speak

to

policy they speak to who Americans are

and and what they're worried about at

that moment in

America and Barack Obama's presidency

did not have any traction on this what

you have tools to do as president is try

to expand health insurance work on trade

policy but Joe Biden's presidency didn't

have an answer Donald Trump's presidency

didn't have an answer and to be honest

KLA Harris's presidency if she gets it

will not have an answer and nor does JD

Vance have an

answer the spiritual and communal

condition of the country is something

politicians can speak to but I don't

really believe it is something they can

solve but it is something they need to

speak to human beings do not understand

their lives

as fundamentally about policy and so if

you're trying to speak to their

aspirations and their concerns you have

to identify what they really are one of

my favorite lines at the Democratic

Convention so far was from Raphael waro

on the first night a vote is a kind of

prayer for the world we desire for

ourselves and for our children and our

prayers are stronger when we pray

together and there's a lot to that and

the problem is that it is a prayer that

will always end up being

unfulfilled because you're voting for a

president who is to pass legislation to

the House and Senate it's not God but

that doesn't mean it's not the job of

political leaders to speak to what those

prayers actually are rather than what

can actually be answered I think that's

a Fitting Place to end so thank you Ezra

thank you alias

[Music]

this episode of the eclan show is

produced and hosted by elas iswith

factchecking by Michelle Harris with

Mary Marge locker and Kate Sinclair our

senior engineer is Jeff gel our senior

editor is CLA Gordon the show's

production team also includes and Galvin

Roland who and Kristen Lynn original

music by Aman sah and Isaac Jones

audience strategy by Christine Sami and

Shannon Busta the executive producer of

new YK K's opinion audio is Andy Rose

ster

[Music]

[Music]