Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Come here. Scary. [gasps]

>> Biological war. Oh boy. Every time I

talk to you, I'm terrified.

[laughter]

>> That is my part-time job to to actually

scare Joe Rogan. If I can do that. Wow.

>> Yeah. Every time I talk to you, I'm

like, "Oh no." Last time it was nuclear

war. Oh no. Now it's biological war. Oh

no.

>> Which is actually maybe even grimmer

than nuclear cuz at least in nuclear

you're just like gone in the flash.

>> Um I did a show a while back on the

Sci-Fi Network called Joe Rogan

Questions Everything. And one of the

episodes we did was about biological

war. And so we spoke to this guy who

used to work for uh Russia uh during the

Cold War and he was talking about how

much anthrax they had and how much work

they had done on biological weapons and

it was terrifying. He said they had like

just giant vats of anthrax like enough

to kill everyone in New York City.

>> They were mil was it Ken Alabbec? Do you

know? [sighs]

>> He was Russian.

>> Russian. Yeah. There was a couple of

those Russian defector scientists who

came here and told us everything they

were doing. There was like, you know,

tons of anthrax and plague that plague.

That's actually the pathogen that I use

in the scenario I write is plague

because it's

>> so crazy scary, so dangerous,

>> sits at the top of the government's tier

one select agent of dangerous pathogens.

So, one of the things that we did during

this episode, we went to Galveastston to

I guess it's a CDC lab that they had

there. So, they have these super thick

walls and everyone's wearing space suits

and they have these tubes attached to

them and they were studying all these

different really horrible fatal

diseases. And I'm like, well, what if

this stuff gets out? Like, it's right

here. Like, what what happens if it gets

out? Like, will we take every precaution

this and that? But his concern, he said,

was not for genetically engineered

viruses. His fear was really just from

natural virus. He says that is just as

scary as anything that's out there.

>> This is the Russian scientist who

>> No, this is a different guy. This is an

American scientist.

>> Yeah, I think they like to say that, you

know, mother nature is just as powerful.

But in truth, that's actually not true

because think about what you can do with

genetic modification. Make it more

virilent, more transmissible.

>> Yes. and make it defeat existing

vaccines and antibiotics.

>> Well, we are right now in the middle of

the Fouchy hearings. So, yes, we are.

>> He is now testifying in front of

Congress and pleading the fifth about

everything, including the color of his

tie. It's very weird to watch.

>> It's uh in in one way, it's like I told

you to a lot of my liberal friends that

wanted to pretend that he was a great

guy and that he wasn't doing anything

wrong. And now that all these emails

have gotten out where it shows that he

knew that the fatality rate was much

lower than they were saying. He knew

that it [snorts] wasn't dangerous for

children, that they didn't need

vaccines. He knew that the social

distancing thing was all nonsense.

And he's got a blanket pardon for 10

years. And the thing is, it's like these

people get money for research. And

that's what they do. They do research.

So if you get money and you get grants

for research, well, you're going to go

do research. And if your research is

gain of function research that makes

viruses more infectious to human beings

and you know you have to do it because

that's your job. That's what you do.

That's what you studied. That's what you

went to school for. Like what a crazy

thing we're doing.

>> It is bananas. And it's also I mean it

was really unfortunate. I thought that

yesterday he took the fifth cuz I for

one just want to hear

call me Pauliana the truth be told you

know. Well, he's not going to tell you

the truth no matter what. He's going to

obiscate and dance around it and use

words that don't totally apply to what

he's saying and just ramble on. And

>> I mean, CO absolutely could have been

this incredible lesson for all of us. I

mean, the nightmare that it was

>> and instead were just left. I mean, can

you believe that we still with all the

power of national security that we still

allegedly do not know where the virus

came from?

>> Don't we

>> definitively? I mean, definitively,

people certainly have their ideas,

>> but I think it's high probability that

it came from the Wuhan lab. I I I think

most experts are now saying that. And I

think the only reason why they weren't

saying that was because of Fouchy and it

was really because that he had funded

this through the Eco Health Alliance.

>> Look, I say that in a very like 90,000

foot neutral way. In other words,

>> every sub I leave co that part of it out

of my book. It becomes like a like a

metaphor that underpins the narrative

and people end up reading the book and

going, "Wow, I actually think

differently about COVID." which was kind

of my intention, but every subject

matter expert I spoke to encouraged me

to put in the book that almost certainly

it was a lab leak. Like it's just but

but so when I say we still don't know

that's in a bit of error quotes meaning

how is it that someone can't how does it

all rest on Fouchy who had reasons to

mislead us? We know that from looking at

what what's been released. How can it be

that he's the only one with the alleged

answer to it all?

>> Well, I mean, the other scientists that

were investigating it from the

beginning, you know, when they examined

the virus, they were saying that all

indications that it had been manipulated

and they were pretty public about that

and then they weren't and then they

changed their tune. It's just when you

have power and you have influence like

he did and the power to make or break

careers in the medical world where these

people are terrified. You know, they're

already dealing with uh malpractice

insurance which is very high. They

already have very high student debt,

student loan debt, and it's it's a bad

situation for them. and they're not

going to stick their neck out to, you

know, risk their everything that they've

worked for for 20, 30, whatever years

for this thing. And that's what most

people did. Most people just stuck their

head in the sand and, you know,

>> I sort of went along with a party line,

which is also

>> really crazy when you drill down on how

dangerous biological weapons are. I mean

look, most of the people I talked to

said gain of function is a euphemism for

biological weapons engineering.

>> Right. Right.

>> Period. Full stop.

>> And a lot of it is fun funded by the

>> And that Yes. And and and what's crazy

is that these are people that have

worked for Obama just as much as you

know all sides of the aisle working the

real people who are not as you say they

don't have something to gain

financially.

>> Well we should say that Obama actually

stopped gain of function research when

he was in office which was a very wise

thing for him very wise by by you know

his decision. So what do you make of the

fact that like Obama stopped this

>> dangerous research also called dual use

research of concern he stops it

>> and then suddenly it becomes a partisan

issue that republic only one side of the

aisle decides that I mean that's what

confuses me because if the real if you

look at the facts the very knowledgeable

people that are wellinformed by people

who don't have financial gain know that

gain of function is essentially weapons

engineering.

>> Yes. And the thing is they're doing gain

of function to make these viruses more

trans transmissible supposedly so that

they can come up with cures but they

didn't have any cures. And but I think

it's like okay that also sounds great

for them to say we're trying to work on

cures but they're leaving out a really

important point is that in order for us

to find a cure we have to make the

pathogen more virilent more

transmissible. We have to make something

for example airborne that wasn't

airborne

>> right

>> we have to demonstrate that it could

cause a pandemic. You see that a lot in

the literature in order to figure out

how to cure it. Well, that's a catch 22.

That's incredibly dangerous.

Like, we have to actually make a weapon

to be able to defeat a weapon.

That's actually what is being said,

>> right? But it it seems like there's a

lot of going on and that really

what they're trying to do is make better

diseases that work better and they can

use them. Like this is part of the

argument about whether or not Lyme

disease was engineered.

>> And there's a lot of evidence that

points to the fact that it was. And one

of the reasons for it is this Plum

Island laboratory that's right off the

coast of Lime, Connecticut, where the

disease was really first named in the

1970s or whatever it was.

>> Yeah.

>> And so they were doing gain of function

research. They were doing biological

research on ticks in order to infect

ticks with diseases and then they would

drop them out of airplanes and overwhelm

the medical establishment in these

areas. And the idea was that if you're

fighting the enemy, you can fly over,

dump a bunch of ticks on them, they all

get these horrible diseases, everyone's

sick, you don't have an effective

fighting force.

>> I mean, it's like we need to create a

counter measure, but first we need to

create the weapon.

>> I don't even know if they think that far

ahead. I think a lot of it, I'm just

guessing, but I think a lot of it is

just what what I was saying earlier.

There's people and their job is to to do

this kind of research and they want

grants and they want funding and they

want and then there's other people that

can profit off of this of this these

grants and this funding and creating

labs and doing all this stuff and they

just start doing it and they come up

with reasons why it should be done. And

then of course you have military people

that want the military applications of

these diseases and so they they help

facilitate it and they don't even think

what what is this how does this play

out? They think about their own

interests their their own short-term

benefits of having these things and they

just continue the research. They

continue to work and the fact that they

even push back on the idea that it was a

lab leak so hard when you have a lab

right where it was leaked. I mean, right

where it started happening, you've got a

lab there. And then the famous John

Stewart bit that he did on the Co Bear

show, which is hilarious.

>> Yep.

>> I mean, that's it's crazy. It's the

Wuhan Institute for

>> Corona virus research. Yes.

>> And that's where you get a Corona virus

leak. I mean, look, this is like where

you really have to think the country's

going to hell in a handbag. That people

stop being able to like form an opinion

based on the facts in front of them,

even if it isn't popular with their best

friend.

>> Well, it's their party, right? It's

their ideology. They they've committed

to one side or another. And either you

you know, you're with the team or you're

not with the team. And if you're with

the team, you have to accept all the

things the team says

>> at your own peril.

>> I mean, you know, it's an existential

risk.

>> Do you know what the case fatality rate

for COVID was? Like the case fatality

rate, it means how many people out of a

100 people that get COVID die?

>> How many?

>> One.

>> One. Case fatality rate of one.

Pneumonic plague, which I write about in

biological war. Mother nature's

pneumonic plague.

100 out of 100 die.

100% case fatality rate. Unless you get

antibiotics

within 24 hours, then it's about a 15%

case fatality rate. But guess what gain

of function does? You can learn how to

outf fox antibiotics

so that you can turn mother nature's

pneumonic plague which used to be

curable with antibiotics to have no

cure. That's the threat level we're

dealing with. And meanwhile people are

taking sides about

what we're talking about a lab leak that

pretty obviously was a lab. Well, first

of all, I didn't realize that CO's

fatality rate was that high. I thought

it was much lower than that.

>> It's about 1%. Well, here's why. Okay,

so one in 100 people who manifested

COVID got it. But CO is also

>> one in 100 people who manifested CO

died.

>> Died. Yes. So like I don't know.

>> Was it really that much?

>> That is the CDC even defense department

statistic. But also keep this into

consideration. Many many people who had

COVID were never symptomatic,

>> right?

>> Like including my fa my 83 year old

father and my son, one of my two sons,

they could both test positive for COVID

and have no symptoms,

>> right? But isn't that a function of the

PCR test being really not designed for

testing for active diseases? And there's

false positives of the PCR test was

somewhere in the 80%.

>> Huge. Huge. I mean, you're I think

bringing up the most important point

about biology,

which is that there's so much

uncertainty. There's so much

uncertainty. I mean, you and I could get

the same pathogen in our lungs. Our

immunity systems are totally different.

Our physiology is different.

So there's no you uncertainty would be

something that you would think would be

sort of factored into public health

officials talking about things like

we're not sure if dot dot dot but

instead they act with this crazy

certainty which is bogus.

>> Well the big the big problem with that

is profit right? There's there was a lot

of profit in being able to point towards

one very particular method, one very

particular treatment and this was the

only treatment and you have to take this

treatment and this treatment is going to

make people an insane amount of money

but that's not why they're pushing it.

They're pushing it for public health.

They really care about you even though

they're going to make hundreds of

billions of dollars.

>> It's the case fatality rate. Is that

what you're saying?

>> Yeah. It says it's 0.1% which was a

fraction of the 1% estimated early in

the pandemic.

>> Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I

thought it was onetenth of 1%.

>> So that makes more sense to me because

otherwise you would have so many people

dead.

>> You know, if you think about 300 million

people, that means we'd have three

million people dead because most people

caught CO.

>> It's interesting because the CDC still

says it's 1%.

>> I think they're full of

>> right?

>> I think they're full of I think

they're just I think the mismanagement

and the just the overall strategy for

dealing with it and dealing with people,

the lockdowns, keeping kids out of

school, masking, all of it was so bad.

It's it's so indefensible that one of

the wildest things now is during this fi

Fouchy trial.

>> You're not seeing any coverage of it on

mainstream media except I saw one of

those stupid panel shows on CNN where

they were saying, "No one cares about

this. We should care about what's

happening right now. America doesn't

care about what happened 5 years ago.

Hey, there's a congressional hearing

going on where a guy's testifying in

front of Congress who got a 10year

complete 10-year immunity for all the

crimes that he possibly could have

committed when he wasn't convicted of

any crimes, which is an incredible

precedent that's never happened before.

You've never had a guy get pardoned for

something that he was never convicted of

for 10 years, anything he did in 10

years. And then you have that same guy

testifying in front of Congress,

pleading the fifth that what color his

tie is. If you don't think that's news,

you're out of your mind. And you

shouldn't be calling yourself the news

cuz you're just a propaganda arm for

whatever pharmaceutical company is

paying for your advertisements. This

you're what you're doing is nonsense.

This is definitely not news. That's a

big issue for most Americans who went

through that. people who lost their

jobs, people who had to take a vaccine

in order to go to work and got sick from

it. People who they couldn't fly, they

couldn't travel, they were vilified,

they were called plague rats because

they were questioning these things. And

here we are. Here we are with CNN

saying, "This is not a big deal. Why are

we concentrating on this? We have so

many issues right now plaguing this

country." Yeah, guess what? We can

concentrate on those, too. We can look

at everything. That's what you're

supposed to do. That's what the news is

supposed to be. you're supposed to be

telling. You're not supposed to be the

arbiters of what we can and can't

concentrate on. That's ridiculous,

>> you know. But what's interesting is I

think the lack of news ends up making

people more curious. So, in other words,

people go to other sources of

information. If they're not going to get

it from CNN, they're going to look for

it themselves because we're naturally

curious, especially something like

COVID. So, I think I kind of get the

sense that people tow certain groups of

people, certainly not me, because you

don't know what my politics are, but

they will tow the party line, but then

they have their own opinion privately.

>> Yes.

>> Um, which is unfortunately what we also

saw from Dr. Fouchy, but that's a

completely different point because he's

a public health official and he

shouldn't be, you know, speaking out of

one side of his mouth and writing in his

journal another thing that he really

thinks. But I think that this human

instinct to want to know the truth about

what happened

must prevail, right? And and that so but

my original point was like

>> why is Dr. Fouchy allegedly the only one

who can really tell us about the Wuhan

lab? Like where's the CIA? Where's the

ODNI? Where's DoD? Where are other

organizations that you know have that

information?

>> Yeah,

>> you know they do. If Fouchi had it, they

had it. Why aren't they bringing that to

the public domain right now?

>> That's a very good question. So, I want

to ask you about this book. Like, what

was your motivation for writing it? How

did you get involved in this? Like, I

know you you pick a subject and you go

deep and you dive deep and then you

write your book. So, why biological war?

>> Yep.

My first six books were written in the

past tense like you know the Nazi

scientists who came to America Area 51.

Um the Pentagon's brain the nuclear war

and biological war are written in the

future. They're scenarios based on

Pentagon war games. And that was me

realizing like there are major

existential threats right now speeding

up at the rate of science which is going

faster every day literally. And so I

modeled the two books after Pentagon war

games and got access to people who

actually run these games at the Pentagon

and learned the sort of holy

People are preparing for the worstc case

scenario and no one knows about it.

>> Is that their job though? I mean that is

their job. They have to be preparing for

the worst case scenario.

>> The real question is are you preparing

by creating it? the defense department

or us.

>> Well, whoever's Yeah. Oh. Um, well, what

I wanted to do first of all was like I'm

just naturally curious. So, I wanted to

know like what are they what how does

that preparation play out? Um, the most

shocking thing about nuclear was to find

out like, oh, there is no plan because

we're all dead. That's literally the

quote from the FEMA director. There is

no population protection planning after

a nuclear strike because everyone's

dead. Don't forget your morals and hope

you stocked Pedialyte. That's what he

told me. Okay.

Bio is totally different.

>> Why Pedialyte?

>> Pedialyte. You know that stuff you give

your kids to drink? Yeah. Electrolytes.

>> Yeah. Not just kids

>> or or [laughter]

you right. That's what he's

>> athletes take it when they cut weight.

>> It's been a while since I've been an

athlete, but yeah. Um, so yeah, that's

what he said. It was like, wow, that's

what they're thinking about nuclear.

It's just

>> why though?

>> I guess for the electrolytes,

>> does that protect I know what is it

iodine that people tell you to take.

>> I always got the sense that the ped I

should have done a follow-up question,

Joe. Why? Why Pedite? I always got the

sense in the same way that when your

kids are babies and they get diarrhea

that you give them pedialyte to like you

know re get their system filled with

necessary electrolytes. M

>> so that's and I also got the sense that

it was like hydration and you know

better than water

>> god

>> but bio I learned is completely

different animal because what they're

really worried about is the secondary

effect of panic and anarchy and that was

really interesting to me because having

written all these books about you know

the defense department and the CIA the

programs are very, you know, they're

very structured and ordered and they

don't take place in the homeland because

we're always fighting wars overseas.

>> So to learn about a program that would

go down in the continental United States

where you know the insurrection act gets

declared, P commatatus gets lifted, the

military takes over um dot dot dot and

then it goes from there. third act of

the book. Spoiler alert, that was

shocking to me. And it was equally

shocking that I could actually get this

information. A lot of it's classified,

but the names of some of the programs

are unclassified. So, the officials that

I interviewed took me up to the edge of

what can be legally known. And I also

got the sense of like oh that the sense

that these former officials are

conveying is the public should know

about this.

My personal interpretation is like let's

stop arguing about stuff that like

doesn't matter and get to the facts and

start realizing where the real threats

are. So their real fear is worrying

about the the aftermath,

worrying about chaos in the streets,

rioting, looting. That's the real fear.

>> That's the real fear. You can search up

any of So there's unclassified pandemic

plans which are done by like FEMA, DHS.

They're always done by former officials,

former SECF, former CDC director sitting

around a table running a war a pandemic

planning game. They do them at the

defense department and they call it a

biological catastrophe war game. Those

are declassified.

All of them that I was looking at

go through the series of events, you

know, outbreak, infection, sort of

everyone trying to mitigate the the the

the release, the spread, and then it

gets to a certain point, in my scenario,

it's day six cuz pneumonic plague is

fast.

There's a point in all these plans where

anarchy and chaos takes over and the war

game ends. ends like, "Oh, and now we're

done here." And I would say as the

journal, like to myself, what happens

next? What happens next? And why aren't

we learning about it? And

>> they don't have any plans for what

happens after anarchy and chaos.

>> They do. They just don't they just don't

have it in the declassified games. And

that's what there's a plan called the

devolution plan.

>> Oh,

>> eyebrows up for a reason.

>> I don't like that word. Think about

evolution. Now put a D in front of it.

>> Yeah.

>> Instead of going forward, you're going

backward.

>> So you've heard of DEFCON, right? Okay.

So Defcon, defense readiness condition.

There's five.

>> Five is the lowest. That's like normal

every day. At 911, we were at three.

Defcon one means nuclear war. There's a

separate structure of readiness

condition called COG con.

probably haven't heard of it because

it's classified.

Stands for continuity of government

readiness condition.

It's got four levels.

Four is every day. One

is insurrection.

The insurrection act gets declared.

Kogcon one is in effect and the

devolution plan happens which I learned

means a subset of pre-desated officials

they know who they are they've signed

contracts they've rehearsed it

go out in the words of the former FEMA

director Kogcon one you send your

devolution crews out they go out to a

hot site warm site or cold site

underground bunkers located around the

United States. This is from an actual

FEMA chief telling me this.

And they set up how to run the

government because the idea is all the

regular government people will probably

be dead of anarchy, insurrection,

pneumonic plague.

>> So they have bunkers

>> and those are classified.

>> The bunkers are

>> where they are. Do you remember there

was the the bunker during after 911

where Dick Cheney was in the bunker?

Yeah. But George Bush was just like

hanging out.

>> They left him I think they left him in

Texas or you know he was on his ranch.

[laughter]

>> He was just out there in the world.

>> You know what I I had someone tell me

where he was and I went through like a

problem with like legal whether I could

say this. So I had to say I was told but

you know it's not verified something

like that. But um one of the CIA spy

pilots, Ken Collins, he famously flew

the ox cart out at Area 51. He told me

that on 911, George Bush was driving

around in Texas, maybe it was in

Florida, in the back of a laundry truck.

That's how they kept him hidden.

>> What?

>> A So did they just have it look like a

laundry truck and it outfitted with like

regular seats in the back and that's how

they drive them around?

>> I mean,

>> a [laughter] bulletproof laundry truck.

No, I think he got like I think it was

like what do we do with him and that

that was what was available. It was a

laundry truck. That's what I was told by

like a very reliable source

>> that was available meaning there was

nothing else available that was

incognito.

>> They were trying to transport him to the

doomsday plane which is where he ended

up going into the doomsday plan and

flying around in circles.

>> They thought that like a caravan of SUVs

would be too obvious.

>> Yes.

>> Wow. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

So, you learn really pretty quickly that

there's all these plans in place, but

then it becomes like ad hoc or like on

the fly in an actual crisis or

emergency.

>> Whoa.

>> Yep. But, okay. You're referring to

Mount Weather. That's where Dick Cheney

went.

>> Okay. What is that?

>> So, Mount Weather is in the mountains

outside of DC. It's like

>> there's mountains outside of DC,

>> right in the Blue Ridge Mountains.

>> Oh, how far are those?

>> 175 miles.

>> Okay.

>> Um, so the Pentagon has an alternate

command center called Raven Rock.

Underground bunker.

>> Okay.

>> That sounds like it's right out of a

video game. It sounds Raven Rock.

[laughter]

>> They probably have put it in a That's a

real like It used to be classified and

no one used to know about it and now

it's kind of like out there. The

official

>> Is this it, Jamie? This is the bunker.

>> Oh, we have a map of it.

>> Yeah,

>> we got blueprints.

>> All sorts of information about it. What

do you want to know? [laughter]

>> 51 miles from DC.

>> How deep does it 51 miles from DC?

>> At least seven levels.

>> Wow.

>> The Oval Office would be at the bottom.

>> That's crazy.

>> So that's where that's where Cheney was

on 911.

>> So is that where like a nuclear bomb

can't get to it?

>> A nuclear bomb would take it all out. In

nuclear war, I'd destroy all of those. I

mean, I don't destroy them. I show you

how they would be destroyed. Russia

would put like five nuclear bombs on

Ravenrock and it would just

>> just boom boom boom boom.

>> That would be it.

>> And also the fires alone would just

incinerate everyone inside.

>> Also like how are you getting your air?

>> Yeah.

>> Where's your air coming from? Your air

is going to be contaminated with nuclear

fallout, right?

>> Yes.

>> Is this what it looks like?

>> I don't know. There's a bunch of Some of

those pictures were coming from Tumblr,

so I don't know what [laughter] else I

think. I think they take the real the

real pictures and then they turn them

into, you know, comic books. But um

>> but you can see some of

>> So look how it's got this like entrance

carved into the side of the mountain

with a big cement wall and he goes

through that.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, we were talking about this um

the other day. Um we we're talking about

Darren Cuyu.

>> Do you know what that is?

>> It's a an underground facility that's in

Turkey. And

>> yes, I do know about that. that they

found by accident. What was it? The

1970s. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter and gasps]

>> They used it. It was being used to hide

people up until the 1920s.

>> Whoa.

>> Yeah. People like the Greeks were hiding

from people invading Greece.

>> So it can

>> or Turkey, I guess,

>> house 20,000 people under there. And

they really don't know why they made it

or who made it.

>> It's

>> Turkey is crazy. It's such a old

civilization with like layers upon

layers upon layers of Just when you

think it's really old, it gets even

older.

>> Well, that's gocappy, right? Where they

they had to redate.

>> Well, they still resist it. What what

constitutes modern civilization or

civilization in general. They were

they're still trying to say some

archaeologists are hanging on tooth and

claw trying to say that hunter gatherers

made these enormous stone columns with

3D drawings that

>> seem to be a calendar of some sort of a

cataclysmic event. So some of the

pictures we were just looking at from

Mount Weather maybe not accurate because

it's also used in the TV show the 100.

>> Oh yeah. So

>> but it is a real

>> but yeah that that's probably where they

get it from. So what we were looking at

I think was the stuff from the TV show.

>> What is that? What's the 100? Uh like a

show like Silo or something where people

you know 100 people left or something

like that I think.

>> Oh that's what we had Tim Robbins on and

we were talking about Silo. [sighs] Have

you seen that show Silo? Not yet.

>> Really good show. It's on Apple and it's

essentially about an underground

civilization that survives some sort of

cataclysm. They don't exactly say in the

beginning. I'm early on the show. They

don't say what the cataclysm is, but

these people have to live like deep deep

deep underground in these

self-containing facilities and you can't

go outside or you die.

>> Um,

>> yes. Reddit about it. So Darren Cuyu

could house 20,000 people and they had

>> they had pastures or or they had storage

like for cattle and grain and water and

wine and oil presses. It was like crazy

>> And how many thousands of years is it?

They don't even know.

>> They don't know. They don't know who

made it. They didn't know it existed.

They found it. Imagine a a guy, the

initial story was that his chickens had

gone through a hole and he's like,

"Where's these chickens going?" They

never come back. [laughter] And then

>> the disappearing Turkish chickens.

>> So, they knock down these walls and then

they find this thing and they haven't

even explored all of it. They They don't

even have all of it explored yet. It's

insane. It's so big and it's just there

and they don't know why and they don't

know who made it and they don't know

what they were hiding from. This is what

it looks like.

>> Yeah, it's incredible.

>> It's really crazy cuz it's absolutely

enormous.

>> Is this Darren Kui right here? This is

uh like some of the tunnels.

>> Yeah, it's I get confused since they've

only done 10% of it. Like that's

obviously a fake, but I don't know how

much of that is what it is cuz it's

supposed to be underground, right?

>> Yeah, that doesn't look real. That that

seems like somebody made that up. But

the actual image is like that's an image

which is the best Darren Cuyu

underground right there. Point to Yeah,

right there.

That's uh what it really looked like. So

imagine they find this underground and

they don't even know how old it is

because if you find some stuff, you

can't carbonate the walls. You can't

carbonate the carvings. So they have to

find things that are left there. But if

people were hanging out there until the

1920s, like so they really don't even

know if you find something how old it

is. You can guess, but you don't know

like how old was the building when this

person was there. Was it thousands of

years old already? They don't know.

>> Yeah. It's interesting how the

archaeologists that have a like have

skin in the game with with an other

theory resist that and it takes a while.

It's like with Gobeclet, you know, now

there's

>> um investigations going on,

archaeological digs nearby

>> and lo and behold, they're finding other

things which makes me feel like Yeah.

All over the place. Of course, it didn't

exist on its own.

>> Yeah. Of [clears throat] course,

>> some kind of advanced civilization has

neighbors

>> 11,000 plus years ago.

>> So crazy.

>> It's so weird because we keep pushing

the dates further and further back. Like

Graham Hancock always says, stuff just

keeps getting older. And so it makes you

wonder like, have we gone through

something like this before? Whether it's

a natural catastrophe or whatever it

was, you know,

>> remember when we were kids, it was like

the Lasco caves were the oldest thing

ever. I I can't I don't even remember in

France. Remember the drawing of the

bull? Right. Right. Right.

>> I remember that from the history books.

>> That's from that um Herszog documentary.

>> Yes. It's a great one. Amazing.

>> Has he been on this show?

>> No. I want to get him on. I love that

guy.

>> He's the neighbor of my kids.

>> Whoa.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, I don't want to say where he

lives. People go find him. [laughter]

But that's pretty

>> in LA. So, we'll track him down. He's my

favorite documentarian.

>> Oh, absolutely. Grizzly Man's one of my

favorites of all time. Grizzly Man is

epic.

>> Yeah,

>> it's

>> Have you seen Happy People?

>> No.

>> That's a great one, too.

>> Is that new?

>> No. No. It's a few years old. It's Life

in the Tiger. Happy People, Life in the

Tiger. It's about these uh people that

live in Siberia off the Tiger River. And

they're like the happiest people. And

all they do is like hunt and fish and

trap and uh they get together. They have

really strong community. They drink and

they're laughing and they have like no

mental illness. It's it's really weird

as he documents it. He has such Have you

seen little deer needs to fly?

>> No.

>> Oh my god. The only man rescued from

Laos during the Vietnam War. And Herzog

go he's died since Deer. But Herzog goes

with him back into the jungle.

>> Wow.

>> Oh my god. You're going to love it. It's

a treat that you haven't seen it yet.

Little Deer needs to fly.

>> That guy is such a world treasure.

>> Oh my god. Just his voice

>> and like his perspective on everything.

Just when you think just when I think I

know what he's going for, he takes you

like on a complete left turn

>> and you're left like at least for me

thinking about the world in a completely

new original way.

>> Yeah. So these caves in France, they

thought that that was the old but that

was really old, right? Wasn't Wasn't

that like 30 plus thousand year old

drawings?

>> I think maybe Jamie can check for us. I

think they were like 7,000 BC, you know?

So like

>> I think they were older than that.

>> Discovered 1940 by four teenagers closed

in 63

created around 17,000 years ago.

>> 17,000. Okay. Yeah,

>> that's it. God, I thought it was older.

>> That's just a quick explanation.

>> This is the Warner Herszog documentary.

I thought they were like literal cavemen

made it.

>> Well, I mean,

>> so that's only 17,000 years ago.

>> That's what that says. Interesting. God,

I really thought it was a lot older than

that.

>> But then they come up with like the hand

on the cave in Indonesia. I think that's

40,000

>> believed to be 19,000 years ago. That's

interesting. So at one point in time

they thought that was the oldest

>> when I was a kid. I remember that like

>> it's not quite what it says. Says the

painting for the site were duplicated

with the same materials which were used

to believe like

>> which were used 19,000 years. That

doesn't mean

>> Oh, right.

>> It could still be older,

>> right? They knew that they used them

19,000 years ago, but they could have

used them a lot earlier.

>> Right. Right. We don't have documents.

Crazy stuff though. Just imagine like

living back then.

>> It is wild when you think about the

underground bunkers now and you kind It

kind of has this spooky echo as an

archetype of

>> hiding,

>> hiding from the dangers. Yeah. Having a

shelter

>> and hiding from the the the whole that

trope that thought of a bunker

>> is, you know, there's a lot of uh

supposedly wealthy people. Well, they

are wealthy, but supposedly they have

these underground bunkers.

>> That's what you always hear. These rich

people, these billionaires are setting

up bunkers in New Zealand because they

know something's coming. Like, oh,

Jesus.

>> Right.

>> Right. Good luck getting there in time.

>> Yeah. Right. Right. If a goes down

and you happen to be in Hawaii and you

got to get to New Zealand.

>> Also, your bodyguards are a lot stronger

than you are.

>> Well, wouldn't you bring them with you?

>> Yeah, but it's going to be every man for

themsel.

>> Well, wouldn't you have a if you're

going to have that kind of money to make

a Wouldn't you have a bunker that could

house a few hundred people so that you

could,

>> you know, nobody gets insurrection in

your movement?

>> I mean, I suppose if you bring

everybody's family, you have to have a

lot of preparing for this. That's what

really kept taking me back to those docu

the documents in the defense department

about fear of infection creates anarchy

and insurrection because this idea of

like fear of infection.

>> People begin to their mind actually

begins to change in the studies under

scarcity,

>> right?

>> And scarcity coupled with fear of

infection. It's so visceral. It's like

it's as much of an archetype as the

bunker being infected,

>> right? very very different than being

shot at, right? You get the sense if

you're if you can get into the bunker,

if you're being attacked with a physical

weapon, okay, I'm safe now. Close the

doors, make a fire. But with fear of

infection, I mean, a biological weapon

or any pathogen from is a living

munition. It self-replicates and it's

got an incubation period.

>> So then it act right. So then you can be

infected and not know it while it's

incubating inside of your body and then

you infect a bunch of other people as

well.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And we saw during COVID how

aggressive people got screaming at

people for not wearing masks and and you

know that was as far as pandemics go.

Fairly mild.

>> Yeah. Fairly mild. Like I mean if you go

with the CDC's 1% or your.1%

of the or or you know right perplexities

one I mean you're talking about a

nothing burger compared to compared to

plague pneumonic plague and there you

know I mean look I also write in the

book and this has never been reported

before because I interviewed CIA

officers who both debriefed the Soviet

defectors and also people who chased

WMD in the hands of terrorists during

the war on terror. And I specifically

didn't want to write that scenario

because it's so loaded to go with like

terrorist youth use of a biological

Asian. But I give you little history

lessons when I stop the drama. One of

which involves an al-Qaeda terrorist

that was captured. She's actually now in

Texas in a mental institution for the

rest of her life. Her name's Aia Sadiki.

She's an MIT trained biologist

related by marriage to Khaled Shik

Muhammad. Okay. And she was leading the

biological weapons program. This is

according to the CIA officers.

>> She was trained at MIT.

>> She was trained at MIT and then she went

back to Pakistan. She was the first

woman on the FBI's most wanted terrorist

list.

>> How come they have her in a mental

institute?

>> Cuz they caught her. And then this part

is reported. They caught her and

somehow, again, the air quote, somehow

she got a hold of a Marine's rifle and

fire and was firing at the FBI agents

interviewing her. This is all public.

And she was shot. They took her to the

United States, gave her a trial, decided

she was insane, put her in a mental

institution.

But what had never been revealed before

my book is that in her handbag, she had

plans to create a genetically modified

pathogen that mixed rabies with

chickenpox.

>> Think about that. Imagine airborne

rabies. Rabies like pneumonic plague is

one of the only other pathogens that has

a 100% death rate without

countermeasures.

and rabies, like when you see it in

animals. I've never actually encountered

a rabbit animal in the in the wild as as

much as I know.

>> Um, but when you see them, they they

want to infect something else. They get

hyperaggressive. They want to bite you.

>> So, if they bite you, they give it to

you, which is really crazy.

>> Like, this this disease makes them throw

their own safety out the window and just

go after people and try to bite them. I

mean, it's like a it's like rabies is a

s like now its own ra a rabid animal.

You know, you think of it of it's so

visceral. It's going to come at you with

its infected saliva. I almost went with

the rabies scenario because I I always

in these scenarios tie them to actual

events that have happened so that

there's so that readers don't go like

this is Annie Jacobson's dystopian

imagination as much as they say oh she's

following what you know science this is

science fact not science fiction and so

when I learned about that plan for to

for the genetic modification of rabies

and chicken airborne rabies but then I

thought

>> how far did she get along wrong with

this?

>> That is classified, Annie. You know, but

I did get a second person, David

Realman, who's the adviser to the

president on biodefense, to confirm with

me that that was actually located in her

handbag and caused serious concern.

>> Well, now imagine if they never found

her, they never caught her and she

completed that.

>> I mean, it's really terrifying.

>> It wipes [snorts] out most of the

country

>> and also just in the most horrific way.

I mean, you know, like having to like

look at your pet and be like, is my pet

rabbit? It's just

>> Jesus could catch it, too.

>> Another project.

>> Oh, she had another project.

>> Multiple projects, apparently.

>> She had collected materials on viruses

for biological warfare. And one of her

projects is finding its way to infect

America's poultry supplies with an

antibbody that would allow chickens to

pass salmonila onto humans more easily.

She later destroyed her work after

suspecting Abu Lubab was hoping to

double cross her and turn her into the

United States authorities.

>> This is a long Wikipedia with quite a

bit of twist and turns. I'm surprised

it's not a movie. It's a lot going on.

>> Oh my god. And that's one person that we

caught. Now, that's not like this is the

only time they thought of that. This is

the only person that they tried to

recruit to do this kind of stuff.

There's probably someone out there right

now. Mhm.

>> Hence your book.

>> I [clears throat] mean, I interviewed

this guy, very famous, legendary CIA

officer named Ralph Moat Larson, and he

led the

counterw team, right? So, he would go to

places basically like with a bunch of

ground branch guys, CIA paramilitary

guys behind him. He was kind of like the

intelligencia at the front to try to

negotiate with al-Qaeda weapons makers,

biological weapons makers, and say like,

"You can't do this. It's going to kill

all of us." And he he told me a couple

stories, and I write them like history

lessons in the book. Once he went to

Sudan and met with uh the top biological

weapons maker for al-Qaeda and like, you

know, it's just chilling. It's basically

you get the feeling like that Rol said I

got them to agree to stop temporarily

>> temporarily.

>> Temporarily.

[sighs]

>> Sorry, Joe. This is the nightmare stuff.

>> So, what do they think that they're

going to do if they get into these

bunkers?

This is the thing. It's like if society

completely collapses and anarchy just

sweeps the nation and you've got cities

on fire and people killing people and

looting, eventually they're going to run

out of food. Eventually there's going to

be no infrastructure. You've got no

power. You've got no one who's taking

care of the water. No one's taking care

of the satellites. No one's taking care

of anything. The cell phone towers are

down.

>> What are these people in the bunker

going to do? Are they going to reinvent

society?

>> Well, that's the plan down the road. But

before

>> Do they have that? They have part five

of the devolution plan is called

reconstitution.

>> Oh Jesus.

>> So they're going to reconstitute the

government like rise again like a

phoenix from the ashes. But before that

I also learned the government has issued

the rather the Pentagon has issued 1.7

million gas masks to its personnel. So

they fan out across the states, but they

can not really handle the numbers of

people who are actually going to die

pretty quickly. So instead, what their

job is is to protect the critical

infrastructure, all that stuff you

exactly mentioned.

>> So they're just

just assuming that most people are going

to die.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the quote.

This is the exact quote from Colonel Tom

Hehard, who ran uh catastrophic nuclear

and biological war games at the Pentagon

for Do you have you ever heard of a very

famous guy? They called him Yoda at the

Pentagon. He died like a couple years

ago at age 100. His name is Andy

Marshall.

>> No.

>> He ran the office of net assessment.

Talk about a euphemism like or like a

cloaked. That's where they did all the

wargaming. And Marshall, Andy Marshall

did this in the 70s all the way through

his recent death. And Tom Hehard worked

for him. It's in the office of the

Secretary of Defense. So what Hehard

told me is in the event of a biological

catastrophe. And by the way, that

includes not just an attack, but an

incident. And an incident means a lab

leak. Okay? So in the event of a

catastrophic biological incident,

there is very little you can do to

protect the homeland. Only things you

can do to mitigate extermination

>> of the human race.

>> That's his quote.

>> Mitigate extermination.

>> Mitigate extermination.

>> So you want to keep as many people alive

as possible, but it's probably going to

be a very small amount. And it's

probably just going to be the 1.7 people

with the gas mask and a whole bunch of

like Macavelian solopsis.

>> Do you imagine if our society had to be

reinvented

with only people that work in the

government? [laughter]

>> Can you imagine some of the most

incompetent, crooked people in the world

and that's the new society? Well, I have

a feeling most of the bureaucrats would

die because I don't think they could,

you know, take care of themselves,

right? I think the people that would

live would be those well-trained

soldiers.

>> Well, that's not bad. That's probably a

better scenario.

>> But the other problem you're looking at

is reproduction because there's 17%

females in the military.

>> That's not good.

>> That's not good. And then the other

problem is that the other people who are

left that are not in the military are

imagine the skills you have to have to

be able to like deal with fear of

infection

in a manner that you basically have to

be able to as it was said to me kill

people on site like not even worrying

about whether this is where it really

feels like the walking dead or you know

an apocalyptic movie. 28 Days Later was

based on that. But 28 Days Later was a

lab leak.

>> Yes. Yes. That's it.

>> Remember it was called Rage. It was

something they were doing with

chimpanzees and chimpanzeee bite

somebody.

>> That's how it opens.

>> And it spreads.

>> Those are great films.

>> Those are great. You see the new one?

>> Amazing. No, I haven't seen the new one.

>> Oh, the new one. Parts one and two. I

mean,

>> there's parts one and two of the new

ones.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, is it two-parter?

>> Two-parter. They they released them like

six months apart. Oh, God. They're

incredible. I mean,

>> just get worn out from those kind of

movies.

>> I mean, it's a certain You have to have

a certain

>> Yeah,

>> there's no happy ending.

>> I don't I mean, Joe, I'm an eternal

optimist, believe it or not. I really

am.

>> That's crazy considering your work,

>> but I just figure all of this is a

cautionary tale. And I also figure it's

better to know than to

>> Well, it's better to inform. And I think

you do an amazing job of that. And I

think you're a very important person in

that regard. you inform people of these

things that you really should be

considering that I mean your nuclear war

book freaked a lot of people out that

were kind of you know nuclear war was in

the back of their mind you know yeah

it's a possibility but hey we haven't

done it we dropped a couple of bombs

during the world war II and that's it

we're done with that

>> you know you said something to me last

time we spoke about the nuclear war book

that really stayed with me and it has an

interesting kota so you were like Annie

I couldn't read nuclear war. It freaked

out a lot of my friends. I can't read

it. And then you explained why. And you

said, I'm paraphrasing you, but you

said, I think about those people at

Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they were

just going about their daily life

and all of a sudden they're incinerated.

And that really stayed with me. And I

thought about it. Here's the kod.

The survivors are called habacha. That's

what they call themselves. It's like

survivors of the nuclear bomb. So now

since it was 80 years ago, they're all

like 81 to 90 plus.

And they were stigmatized throughout

their youth because the idea was you're

radioactive, you can't reproduce, you're

sort of, you know, there's like a a

malignant a malignant thing attached to

you. This is what they told me. and I

met them and they um I was invited to

Hiroshima to be the keynote speaker with

the Habacha for the 80th anniversary of

the bombing.

>> What did they say the experience was

like in terms of being maligned? Like

what what was happening to them?

>> Well, the sense I got was very much that

they believed that was accurate. They

had no other information.

They had no other information other than

people telling them, you know,

>> they were radioactive.

>> Yeah. Now, what was also interesting is

a couple of the younger people who were

who don't remember who were like

infants,

their mothers, like let's say one parent

died and another so their one the living

parent would shield them from that by

never telling them that they were

haboka.

So then they had this whole other kind

of realization later in life when they

learned and some of I mean those stories

were like incredible because you're

learning about how like a parents love

for a child means not telling them what

you think would make them feel

stigmatized. But yet you've them

explaining to me that they felt that

stigma throughout their life anyways not

knowing why. I never even would have

considered that stigma. I would have

considered survival's guilt, survivors

guilt, which people do have if you're a

part of a disaster and you're one of the

ones that lived.

>> Yeah.

>> People get survivors guilt. But I never

would have thought of the the stigma of

being maligned as an infected

radioactive person.

>> And Japan has such a different culture.

I couldn't have imagined that either

until I heard it firsthand from the

experience of the survivors.

They sent some of them to an island.

>> Like banished as if you're a leper.

[snorts]

>> How much is this Iran thing freaking you

out?

>> The war?

>> Yeah.

>> Look, I mean, when anyone starts a war,

that's not necessary.

That's the wrong word for it, but you

know, just like this is the whole It's

just a terrible, terrible, terrible

idea. That just seems to me like the

opposite of what the Department of

Defense, it's why I continue to call it

the Department of Defense, by the way,

because it still is in my mind and

certainly until Congress changes the

name,

um, you know, it's supposed to be for

defense,

>> right? So

I think so so much of what I have

written about all the wars since World

War II, I've interviewed hundred or more

people for each of my eight books who

have been in every war. And the big

shift for me like understanding a a

change in mindset was

the Bush Cheney administration

starting the Iraq war. Like I really

believe that many of the problems we're

experiencing today as a society stem

from that. And that has to do with the

fact of all the soldiers that I've

interviewed.

Um there's a there's a completely

different perspective on the government

from those who fought in the wars

leading up to the war on terror.

And the people who

most of them, you know, many of these

people too, like they're mad.

They're really mad that they were used.

That's a sense that I get now, not

everyone, but a majority

are very angry and feel used. And that

is a fundamental warping of what the

military is.

>> Yeah, without a doubt. And also no clear

way to resolve this at all.

>> Yes.

>> And it seems like our stock piles are

running dry.

You know, we're

bases are getting blown up by drones.

>> I heard, you know, um I heard Joe Kent,

who was the number two at ODNI, who

resigned. I heard him say a really

interesting thing

about the warrior class that I hadn't

you know when you just like have all

this information but you didn't put

something together and then you hear it

and you're like of course and what Joe

said was one of this was in reference to

Trump maybe saying there was going to be

or someone in this administration saying

there should be a draft and everyone

freaking out and saying like that's you

know that's outrageous and Joe Kent's

point was really interesting. He said

there should be a draft but not for

reasons you think. And he said

presently America has a warrior class

and Joe Kent is in it. Meaning you know

these are like a don't have the exact

statistic 1% less than 1% of families

who are in the military. And he said

Kent said you know we socialize with one

another. Our kids socialize with one

another. We go to school with one

another. We go to war with one another.

We talk together. We have parties. And

we know something about America that is

completely foreign to all the other

families. And it's a it's there's

something wrong with that. And I've

really thought about that a lot since

and I agree with him. And his point

about the draft was

if everybody

knew and experienced what we experience

in our families talking about war versus

peace.

Wars would be looked at differently.

>> Instead of thinking we should go to war

like a Lindsey Graham type perspective

whereas no real skin in the game. He's

not going to go get shot. No one he

knows is going to go get shot.

Yeah,

>> absolutely.

>> Makes sense.

>> So, that's kind of my answer to, you

know, and I like I I'll see a headline

that's like the war in Iran cost us XYZ

billion dollars and it's like it doesn't

even mention all the people dying. You

know, there's like 10 and and yes, the

Americans, but like it's just talk about

misreporting,

>> right? It's just talking about money,

which is crazy.

>> Which is crazy. Which is crazy.

And then it also the real problem is it

makes America an enemy and it makes us

less safe because America has done this

thing this unprovoked attack and so now

they have a reason to attack back. It

it's it's very like slippery, you know?

It's like untrustworth. I mean, I always

go back to like the way you behave with

your family is the way that you should

present to the world. Otherwise, you're

being a hypocrite. [snorts]

And the idea that we're we as a country

are kind of like you're not really sure

what we're up to. And and then it's

changing. It's like radically changing.

one the pendulum swings so far from what

one administration's

um you know list of really important

things is to another. I mean it must

from an outside perspective

it must be really schizophrenic looking.

>> Yeah.

So to get back to your book, um how many

different countries do we know are

involved in this kind of biological war

research?

>> So for starters, biological war is

illegal. Biological weapons are illegal,

unlike nuclear weapons, believe it or

not, are perfectly legal for the

countries that have them. Wrap your head

around that. But everybody signed a

treaty in 1972 called the biological

weapons convention treaty saying we will

not make biological weapons. They are

odious to the conscience of mankind.

At that point the Soviets signed the

treaty cross their fingers behind their

back and made a ginormous biological

weapons program that you talked about

earlier. Okay. America allegedly

destroyed her arsenal of of of

biological weapons, which took 219 weeks

to destroy, by the way. Um, and not for

another 20 years did we learn that

actually the Soviets were running this

biological weapons program. And we only

learned it because of the Soviet

defectors. The CIA had no idea. Defense

Department had no idea. So we had

completely stopped all of that work

>> according to the documents, according to

anyone you interview. We had stopped

biological weapons.

>> What year was this whole? [snorts]

>> Nixon made a declaration in 1969. Like

we're just giving up our biological

weapons program. And then everyone else

followed suit and the treaty came about

in 1972.

>> But the Soviets continued their work.

The Soviets not only continued, they

just like they like went bang on it and

they later called it their Manhattan

project.

>> And weren't there boweapons labs in

Ukraine?

>> You're talking about recently?

>> Yeah. That the United States was

involved in.

>> What there are are there are biolog

there are biosafety labs. Okay. So your

original question was where are they

around the world? So, so they're they're

illegal. But what isn't illegal cuz this

is a carve out in the treaty. You can do

research for prophylactic purposes for

medical counter measures. That's the

carve out. So that's where we've gotten

to gain of function. You see

>> like, oh, we're just doing this for

prophylactic purposes.

>> That's how the DoD gets involved.

>> Okay. So

before 9/11, 9/11 factors into this and

so does Dick Janie because before 9/11,

America had two BSL for labs, bio safety

level four. That's the highest level.

That's like you saw the suits, the

tubes, your arms are in the boxes.

You're taking a sha chemical shower

before you go in. America had two. One

at Fort Dietrich, that's the DoD's lab.

one at the CDC in Atlanta. That's the

civilian lab. 9/11 happens. Remember the

anthrax attacks

>> never solved. Thank you, FBI.

Dick Cheney personally is terrified of

bioweapons.

and he spearheads the efforts for this

giant biological military-industrial

complex that then takes off and begins

with billions of dollars pumped into

gain of function type research and

America goes from having two BSL labs to

having 15 and the world follows suit. So

there are 110

BSL4 labs around the world including in

countries that are at war.

>> And this is all post Bush

administration.

>> Post Bush ad. That is when it took off.

That is when it took off.

>> Wow.

>> So America has a hand in the blossoming

of this problem. Most certainly. And

then when you find out that so you think

BSL4 okay well BSL3 that just must be

like you know chickenpox no in the BSL3

labs you can work with plague anthrax

haunt virus like serious diseases that

allegedly have cures

and so you know how many BSL3 labs there

are in the United States of America

right now

>> how many

>> 1,500

>> 1,500

Oh,

>> and around the world there are 3,500.

90% of them have no guidelines for

safety.

>> Did you hear about the story where there

was a man in Vegas that had a bolab in

his garage

>> in California? In California?

>> Both. Both. Both.

>> Another one.

>> They're both there. And they were

seemingly linked.

>> Oh boy. [clears throat]

>> Possibly tied to California case.

Federal Chinese investigation.

>> Yeah. Wait till I show you what's at the

bottom, too. [snorts] Oh boy. Jamie, why

you doing this to me?

>> O,

>> no case appeared filed in state federal

court as of Sunday.

>> Like it's and I didn't really see a

follow-up.

>> I haven't seen the dead mice, Jamie.

What are the What's with the dead mice?

>> Thousand dead mice. There's vials

including HIV, malaria.

>> Well, the crazy thing is the guy who

they caught, they didn't arrest him.

Like there was an Israeli guy. So, this

says Chinese investigation, but one of

them was a guy who was an Israeli guy

who they caught and they sent him away.

He just they didn't prosecute him. He

took off.

I mean, this stuff is so thinly reported

and it's always got like a giant

sensationalist clickbait type headline

and people read about it and know about

it a little bit and then the real

reality behind it, I think, gets

completely lost, which is that the

bottom line is that the barrier to entry

in the biological weapons field is so

incredibly low.

It's horrifying. Like, think about what

you need to have a nuclear weapon.

>> A lot.

>> I mean, look at Iran right now. Okay,

you have to have enriched uranium or

plutonium. You have to have visile

material. Then you have to have a weapon

system. You have to have an ICBM or a

submarine or a B2 bomber.

Nuclear weapons are tightly controlled

by a nation's command and control

structure.

All subject matter experts I interviewed

for this book expressed their serious

concern that the barrier for entry is so

low that basically a given computational

systems AI enabled bio

basically a high school student with

limited knowledge of biology can make a

bioweapon in their basement

or in the Vegas apartment building.

Well, this guy had it in his garage

and they caught him.

>> And what was he doing? Do we know?

>> I don't know. They they they referenced

it as a storage facility.

>> And they said that was

>> I was Yeah, it said storage facility.

>> Yeah, it said not a laboratory. Adding

that the samples and equipment suggested

no active work was happening there. But

it says I think the question is why does

somebody have these materials in a

private residence? It's not a doctor,

not a lab, not a licensed medical

facility of any sort. This uh guy

>> and it's a great question and I wonder

what the answer is.

>> Um I also think it was like an Airbnb or

something. [laughter]

>> That's kind of like the it gets lost in

like who owned the LLC, who owned it.

They said the guy who was running it

doesn't own it. And

>> 1200 samples. Oh god.

>> So this is what was he doing?

>> What was he doing?

>> I don't know. But I think they released

him. That's what's crazy.

the guy in Vegas was released. Is that

correct?

>> That's what I was trying to say. When I

Googled that, I didn't really see a

followup on like anything updated or new

since

>> I'm pretty sure they I'm pretty sure the

guy in Vegas was an Israeli citizen and

he was released. So, the question is

like what was he doing

>> and he was caught? But that's just one

guy that was stupid and got caught. How

many people are doing that? How many l

are there? Sleeper labs all across the

country.

>> Ory Solomon charges dropped. It says on

the property manager.

>> Whoopsies.

>> Maybe it's just because he's the

property manager.

>> Yeah, no big deal. He didn't do anything

>> without prejudice. Still faces criminal

charge in Clark County for improper

disposal of hazardous waste.

>> But didn't he leave and go back to

Israel?

>> Oh, I mean, this is just I'm looking at

the

>> I think that [snorts] was the

allegation. He's due back in court on

June 4th, which was

>> months ago.

>> Yeah. So, I don't that's See, I didn't

see anything about it. I'll look it up.

>> Yeah. Nothing to see here. It says an

Israeli citizen, right? Did it say that?

Go back to Right. We just

>> citizen on a non-immigrant visa is not

allowed to possess firearms. Prosecutors

say multiple guns were seized from his

home. [laughter]

>> Well, you got to have guns if you've got

plague.

>> You got to look out for your for your

stock.

>> Guard your plague.

>> But, you know, I stayed away from that

kind of lone actor crazy because It's a

lone actor.

>> I mean, exact. You don't know. And

>> well, if it was, would you think they'd

let him go?

>> That's That's my question. If it's a

lone actor, would they really let him go

or is he connected to somebody and

that's how he got out? I mean, one of

the problems of the overpoliticization

of everything is that it just seems like

anything important becomes splatter and

becomes secondary to some of these other

concerns that seem to take headlines,

right? Like that should be a big story.

And yet all any of us ever heard was,

"Did you hear about the crazy bolab?"

>> Right?

I can tell you that the bigger story is

really, at least to my eye, you know,

because this is another one. Oh, thank

God nothing got out. Thank god no one

was infected. But the real issue is what

happens if someone does get what happens

if a pathogen gets seated in the

community, right?

>> And an outbreak starts to move to an

epidemic. And you know the I write in

the end of the book, Joe, the point is

not panic. This is of course after I

take you through like the worst

dystopian nightmare ever. The point is

pressure. Pressure to understand the

threat, the the labs around the world,

the bureaucracy involved, all the

different problems that would come up of

mitigating the threat so that you can be

informed and also say like, wait a

minute, something really needs to be

done and needs to be looked at here. and

PE and instead people are arguing about

the most obvious thing in the world to

my eye. You know what happened in the

Senate yesterday? Like that is pretty

obvious. What happened? What is being

covered up? We were misled. And yet all

of this in I'm not saying to skip over

it, you know, but

it's it's like how much effort do we put

on something

without a resolution? That's what

confounds me.

>> Yeah, it's a really good question. And

the fact that there's so many labs in

this country and that they've all sprung

up post 2001.

>> They moved that Plum Island lab, by the

way, to Kansas

and it open it either just opened or is

about to open. It cost an extraordinary

amount of money.

>> And are they doing the same research?

>> Yes. Yep. They moved it off of Plum

Island and now it's in Kansas.

>> Do you know anything about this alpha

gal tick? This lonear tick that gives

people this uh allergy to red meat.

>> A little bit. A little bit in as much

that it's a parasite which is different,

you know, if it's a bug, which is

different than a germ. Um, but I think

it speaks to

this idea that sort of there are natural

things that are happening in our

environment

and then there are also unnatural things

and the inability to differentiate

between them or trust. Look, so much of

all this has been about trust the

science and then okay, we can't trust

the science unfortunately

around CO and we're all waiting for a

reckoning around CO. It's obviously not

coming anytime soon. And in the

meantime, you have, you know, the

lettuce outbreak, you have the

alphaagal, you have legionnaire's

disease from data centers in your,

there's an influx of

health concerns coming from mother

nature herself.