There's a much more recent study that

took again older adults and randomized

them across three different groups. One

was like a low-intensity group. Another

group basically did kind of zone 2 type

work on a treadmill three times a week.

And the third group did um a

high-intensity interval training

intervention which was the Norwegian 4x4

protocol. So 4 minutes at 85 to 95% of

maximum heart rate. They had a 3minut

rest in their protocol. They did that

four times over.

>> That was three times a week.

>> Three times a week for 6 months. That's

that's pretty intense. But what they

showed was that that highintensity

interval training group, they improved

their fitness just as well as the zone 2

group, interestingly, but they had much

better improvements in hypocample

function and maintenance of hypocample

structure and MRI scan. And they

maintained that benefit for 5 years

after the six-month intervention. So

they worked really hard for 6 months,

but that that benefit was maintained for

for a really long period of time.

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based [music] tools for everyday

life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Tommy Wood. Dr. Tommy Wood

is a medical doctor and neuroscience

researcher at the University of

Washington in Seattle. He is also the

chief science officer of BetterBrain, a

company that provides free brain health

coaching. Tommy is an expert in

neuroplasticity and human performance

and how science-based protocols can be

used to improve your focus, ability to

learn, and skill expression. His work

applies to everyone from the novice to

the elite expert, and for all kinds of

skills, cognitive, language skills,

athletic, and creative endeavors. Today,

we discuss the brain states that favor

learning and importantly, how to get

yourself into those states. We also

discuss how to get the most from a

learning session. for instance, how long

that session should last, how many

sessions to do per day, and perhaps most

importantly, how to tune your mind and

body to get better at learning. That's

something we don't often hear in the

context of learning and neuroplasticity,

that our brain circuits for focusing and

learning are also capable of plasticity,

meaning you can literally get better at

getting better. Today, we discuss things

like flow states and something called a

clutch state, which is a seldom

mentioned but critical brain state to

accelerate learning and performance. In

fact, a clutch state is the state that

you want to seek to learn and perform at

your best. We also discuss how different

types of physical exercise from long

slow cardio to brief high-intensity

cardio and different forms of resistance

training each open the window for

distinct types of neuroplasticity and

learning. So, this goes way beyond the

general discussion about exercise

improving your brain. We get really

granular about exactly what types of

things to do to improve your brain in

specific ways. As a career

neuroscientist who has worked on and

taught neuroplasticity for decades now,

it's rare that I encounter someone with

as deep knowledge about the real science

and application of learning and

plasticity as Tommy has. He's also

extremely unique because he has a ton of

knowledge about new science-based

protocols for plasticity. And he's also

an athlete. We discuss that a little bit

at the end as well. So today you will

hear a lot of information that I am

confident you have not heard on this

podcast or anywhere else frankly about

exercise, mental training, nutrition and

supplementation and much more and how

you can leverage each alone and in

combination to learn new skills with

accelerated speed, precision and

durability over time. I should also

mention that Tommy recently released a

new book that he wrote entitled The

Stimulated Mind: Futureproof Your Brain

from Dementia and Stay Sharp at Any Age.

It's an excellent book if you're

interested in following up on today's

discussion and learning more about how

you can make your brain better at any

age. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr. Tommy

Wood. Dr. Tommy Wood, welcome.

>> So amazing to be here. Thanks so much

for having me.

>> Man, this is my favorite topic in the

entire world. What is more interesting

than neuroplasticity, right? The brain

is so interesting, but its most

interesting feature in my opinion

anyway, is that it can change itself.

>> Essentially, that's its core most

important function. If it can't do that,

literally none of the other functions

matter. You could you could argue and

it's something that we have to be able

to do right until the end of our end of

our lives.

You have an eclectic research tapestry,

right? Today we're going to talk about

neuroplasticity, what it is, what it

isn't, how to access it for men, for

women, different ages, and you also are

a high performance coach. You're also a

competing natural strongman.

>> Uhhuh.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Uh does that mean lifetime no gear?

>> Lifetime. Well, it's tested. I Yeah.

Lifetime no gear for me personally, but

it's a drug tested version of the

strongman sport. So yeah, if you uh if

you compete in natural strongman, then

you you get tested.

>> Great. So we'll we'll talk about that.

I'll resist the temptation to talk about

your two boxer [snorts] pups because I'm

a dog lover. That's a different episode.

Neuroplasticity. I know what it means to

me. How do you conceptualize it? How do

you think people should think about it

in terms of wanting to learn things and

not forget things?

I essentially just think of it as the

brain

responding to inputs in order for us to

then be able to better navigate and

survive our environment. And that's why

I think it's such a fundamental part of

what the brain does. And essentially

every time you learn something, interact

with something, remember something, the

principles of neuroplasticity are

engaged, right? you are making new

sinapses or strengthening sinapses,

weakening other synapses. A lot of

people don't realize that particularly

brain development, but then also the

refining of functions in the brain

through neuroplasticity includes the

pruning or removal of signapses. Often

we think about it's all about growth and

new connections, but actually it also

involves the refining or removal of of

other connections that aren't needed.

That's that's a massive part of of brain

development in the first place. And this

is a process that's essentially

continuously on ongoing and you can

think of it as it primary role is so

that you can navigate survive the world

around you and that's through learning

skills through remembering people and

things and facts. Um, and

where I one of the one of the things

that's most interesting to me about

neuroplasticity

and the way we think about our brains

over time is that I think people have uh

conflated

neurogenesis and neuroplasticity. Mhm.

[snorts]

>> So when we're thinking about brain

development, we're thinking about um

then also brain function over with with

with age and either cognitive decline or

maintaining cognitive function. We

thought that the adult brain was was

fixed, right? Um or or then it was fixed

and then it lost function. And this goes

all the way back to Kahal who said the

adult brain is immutable, right? He told

us that you got into adulthood, it

finished developing and then it was kind

of done. He then at other times also

said that changes in the connections

between neurons could explain learning.

And so there he's talking about

neuroplasticity. But we we kind of got

this idea that the brain was essentially

fixed as an adult and then you know

couldn't change anymore. But that can't

be true because you still learn and

remember things on a daily basis as as

an adult. One of the things that I think

we've gotten um confused about is the

fact that the adult brain does not make

new neurons in many places, right? maybe

in the alactory bulbs in the dentus of

the hippocampus, but tiny tiny number.

>> Yeah. But like compared to the rest of

the brain, they're not you're not really

making new cells. And so because of

that, we thought, well, we can't then

grow and adapt or change our brains as

adults. But just because we have a fixed

relatively fixed number of cells doesn't

mean that we can't change the

connections between those cells. And

that's happening all the time. And that

is, you know, the main principle of

neuroplasticity.

>> Yeah, I like your definition. Um, in

part [clears throat] because I agree

with it. in part because it encapsulates

a lot of uh things including u helping

to clear up this misconception that you

know we generate new neurons. I think

>> the attractiveness of the new neuron

idea is just uh it's so sticky.

>> Um and so we would all love to believe

that.

>> Yeah.

>> But maybe there's good reason why we

don't add new neurons. Maybe maybe it's

uh not adaptive, right? Adding new

elements to a circuit is

>> maybe not the best way to change a brain

circuit. I think people also like the

idea that, you know, every organ in our

body turns over its cells. That we're

not the same person literally that we

were. The brain is same cells you were

born with, minus a bunch of them that

die off, as you pointed out. And thank

you for mentioning pruning and the and

the removal of connections as a

fundamental uh aspect of plasticity in

terms of um motor skill learning. Um

let's say I decide I'm going to um

practice billiards.

>> Mhm. and I'm okay now. Hang in there.

But let's say I want to get really good

as I learn and get better and better.

Can we reliably say that uh most of my

improvement is the removal of

inappropriate action and therefore

synaptic connections.

>> I don't know whether it's the majority.

You might know whether it's the

majority, but I think that there

certainly you it requires both, right?

the either the development or

strengthening of new connections and

then the removal of other connections

that decrease accuracy say or that don't

allow you to do the exact motion that

you were intending to do. This, like I

said, kind of goes all the way back to

the development of motor skills, say in

childhood, right? The brain has kind of

finished developing new neurons sometime

around 2 or 3 years old, right? Beyond

that point, you're actually primarily

removing connections in order to refine

[snorts] uh functions based on the

exposures that you have, be they

language, motor, social skills, which is

what the brain is essentially developing

during that time period. So then that

continues throughout our entire lives.

And I think that uh something that

happens later in life, one of the

reasons why we may lose function is

because we stop giving the brain inputs

to maintain a given function. Therefore,

that pruning continues, right? I don't

need to learn know how to do this. So,

I'm going to refine that away. That's

kind of the developmental theory of

aging or part of the developmental

theory of aging. So in that you know

when you're learning a skill as an adult

or anytime a big part of refining that

motor patterns that you're developing

has to be the removal of connections

that are or you know the down

reggulation of connections that aren't

allowing you to to do the skill that you

want to do. If you were to tell people,

look, you want to keep your brain as

young as it can possibly be relative to

your chronological age,

>> you should what?

>> Like it it so this is a general brain

health question, but really I'm

specifically asking about plasticity

[clears throat]

>> and let's make it multiple choice and

then you can add things to it. Okay,

>> you should exercise. So it can be

multiple things and then we'll talk

about which types of exercise. you

should continue to do the things that

you already know how to do.

>> Yeah.

>> And then third option um not mutually

exclusive with the others of course is

uh you should try to do new things that

you can't already do.

>> I I still toil with this when I look at

the literature on neuroplasticity and

aging,

>> right? Like yes, use it or lose it is

true,

>> but we're also told that novelty and

trying things that we're not good at is

an essential component of building out

brain circuits, continuing to make them

function better as we get older. So, how

do you how do you think about all of

that? I'll partly answer your last

question and then maybe give a framework

for how I think about it. So when you

look at a combination of epidemiological

studies and intervention studies in

older adults, everything about

maintaining cognitive function later in

life, you definitely see that those who

continue to engage in hobbies and

activities that are cognitively engaging

or cognitively demanding and that can be

lectures, that can be um volunteering,

that can be you know reading crosswords,

that kind of stuff. those individuals

tend to either have slowed rates of

decline or better maintenance of

function over time and or lower rates of

dementia. That's of course

observational, right? But that's usually

people continuing to engage in the

things that you know they've already

been doing, right?

>> So they're holding on to what they've

got.

>> Holding on to what they've got by

continuing to do that.

>> Okay. Now, of course, it could partly be

reverse causation because if you're

maintaining function, then you will

you're more likely to continue to do the

things that that you enjoy doing, right?

So, there's probably it probably goes in

both both directions. However, there's

an increasing body of literature that

shows that by engaging older adults in

novel cognitive activities, you see

improvements in function. So that can be

language learning. Uh that can be uh

complex like coordinative movement or

exercise. You see the same things with

um like musical training like people

learning a new musical instrument or

learning um musical theory trying to

identify different patterns in music.

And you see in randomized control trials

improvements particularly in executive

function that seems to be most common

across those different interventions.

But you're seeing um improvements in

cognitive function with novel cognitive

stimuli. Uh there's a lot of uh recent

trials that have also used types of

brain training um things like the

pointer trial that was here in the US

maintain your brain which is a massive

online study done in Australia recently

and that's sort of broad cognitive

training with like an online cognitive

training platform. So again it's it's a

new uh or novel um intervention or

exposure that seems to provide a

stimulus that improves function. So, I

think both can be or do seem to be

important.

>> I'm excited to share with you that my

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It provides a deep dive into and clear

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>> Can I ask what um for an example of

maybe one or two of the things that were

in that large-scale trial from

Australia, like just at a at a very top

contour level, um older adults, meaning

65 and older, um are doing what? The

maintain your brain uh study was

actually it was um sort of midlife kind

of uh 50s and 50s and 60s mainly and

they actually had interventions across

four different domains based on risk

factors within that given individual. So

they had uh dietary a dietary

intervention, they had physical

activity, they had um cognitive

behavioral therapy for those who had um

you know some potentially some mental

health um concerns and then they had uh

online brain training. Uh there was

something similar done in the pointer

trial uh which was in older adults now

60s and 70s that was done here in the US

that was a replication of an older trial

called the finger trial that was done in

Finland but what those guys did was

something very similar. So it's uh diet,

exercise, uh monitoring and and treating

uh cardiovascular risk factors and then

brain training. So what the brain

training looks like um so the points

trial is a good example. They did um

they used a platform called Brain HQ

>> which is an HQ

>> Brain HQ um which was uh developed based

on the work of Mike Mzinich um who's you

know like one of the godfathers of

learning and neuroplasticity right um

and they

do various tasks primarily focused on

developing and maintaining processing

speed. Um, some of that evidence goes

all the way back to an older trial

called active that was done in the US in

the '90s. It was still the biggest ever

trial of like pure cognitive brain

training again in older adults. So 60s

and 70s. They had three different um

training groups. The uh and then a

control group. Uh the training groups

did memory training and kind of like you

know pneumonics, memory palaces, that

kind of stuff to help them remember.

There was reasoning training which is

kind of like looking looking for

patterns in numbers and letters. And

then there was processing speed training

where in this example it's visual

processing speed. So things flash up on

a screen in increasingly small uh

increments. So could be hundreds of

milliseconds. And as you get better at

doing it, that time gets shorter and you

have to remember what you saw and where

you saw it on a screen. They just

published a secondary analysis of the

active trial that showed that um those

who did processing speed training with

uh booster sessions at one and three

years had a significantly decreased risk

of dementia 20 years later. Um and

they've done some other studies showing

that that kind of training improves

co-allergic signaling in the forebrain

um which we know is susceptible to um

the processes of dementia. So in

particular, it's this training uh to be

able to improve either visual or

auditory processing speed, which is not

something that you know, as you get

older, you tend to not do activities

that require you to process information

quickly. Like driving is probably the

the main one, but you can do it in

sports and music and and other

scenarios, but if you're not doing those

things, processing speed tends to drop

off sometime around 60 years old. When

you say uh well I say processing, you

say processing [laughter]

uh processing speed. Um are you talking

about reaction time, improving reaction

time or pushing people to um stay at the

edge of of reaction time? And when I say

stay at the edge, I should clarify for

people some task where if you go too

fast, you make errors. If you go too

slow, there's also a penalty

>> in this scenario. And there are, you

know, studies that look at these

different functions over time. Probably

the biggest one looked at uh data that

came from the implicit association test

people might have heard of where you get

um show these pictures of different

things and depending on how quickly you

respond it tells you something about

like your implicit um you like your

implicit thought processes. Um they took

some of the data from that. Um this is

published in one of the nature journals

a few years ago. And what they showed

was that um you can separate out

reaction time versus processing speed

because reaction time is just is a is a

very um just the basic of response to a

visual stimulus whereas processing

requires you is is based on how quickly

you can process and remember the

information that you're seeing. You

actually think Yeah. So [snorts] what

they showed in this study was that

reaction time kind of slowly decreases

on average in a population of it was

about 1.2 million people slowly

decreases in sort of like from about our

30s and then and then maybe decreases

even more once we get past about 60.

>> Processing speed on average tended to be

more stable until about 60 years old and

then tends to drop off. So in what

you're doing in these um training

modalities is you're being shown

information

for a very short period of time and then

having to remember what it was you saw

and where you saw it. Um so requires you

to actually think and you know remember

process the information rather than just

like responding to a stimulus.

>> So for people that want to jump to the

okay what do I do? Um,

can we conclude? Okay, if you like

crossword puzzles, keep doing them, but

do really hard ones for you. If you like

lifting weights, continue to challenge

yourself with those. If you like to run,

you know, push harder. Or should it be

we shift domains? You like to lift and

run, great. Start swimming again,

Andrew. I'm telling myself, I used to I,

you know, I just noticed over time, it's

it's such a cliche of aging, right? um

that you one does tend to become more

narrow quote unquote set in their ways.

You like what you like, you don't want

like what you don't. You get busier.

Probably don't actually get busier, but

you convince yourself, well, do I'm

doing these things and I do plenty of

them, so but I'm not doing these other

things. Or for those of us, I think this

is everybody. If they really ask

themselves an answer honestly,

>> you'd love to hold on to your motor

function and cognitive function as long

as you can,

>> maybe even improve it. Should we push

ourselves to do something that's really

far outside the box or maybe sort of

current skill adjacent? So, I think of

those three categories. What What do the

data say? If you want the greatest

effect for the minimum amount of time,

assuming you're still going to do all

the stuff you normally do, you're going

to add something else.

>> Should it be something really different,

slightly different, or just push harder

in the thing you do?

>> I think it's going to depend a little

bit on what it what it is the things

that you currently do, right? So like

crosswords are a good a good example.

Even if you're doing hard ones, if you

look at the work of people like uh

Gloria Mark, the things like crossword

and sudoku, they're less of like a true

cognitive challenge, right? It's it's

almost has more of like a meditation

meditative like effect, right? Which can

be a good thing, right? So you're

focused but not challenged really. uh

whereas if we're trying to build

capacity, you need to spend some time

doing something where you are both

focused and challenged um cognitively.

So that can come from um learning new

skills be they motor, language, social

um and ideally as broad as possible

because you're going to get better like

overall stimulus as well as kind of like

broader potential for for transfer into

other areas of of daily life. In

reality, the narrowness of the response

or the breadth of the response is

proportional to the narrowness or the

breadth of the stimulus, right? So, you

could get really good at one very

specific thing or you could try and

learn a new skill that requires a that

involves a wide variety of tasks. So,

I'll give like like an example is

learning a new ball sport, right? that

is going to require multiple assets of

motor skills, social skills. Um, it's

going to include both visual and

auditory processing that's going to get

faster and faster and harder and harder

the better you get. So, something like

that uh creates a much broader stimulus

um than you know if you get very good at

one very specific brain training task on

like one computer program, right? This

is one of the main arguments against

online or you know digital brain

training is that you get very good at

doing that one specific thing but it

doesn't transfer over to other areas of

your life. Whereas some of these broader

more complex ultimately more human

skills probably give us much broader

transfer as well as you know you know

because of the the multiple pathways or

networks that are being activated.

>> If my interpretation of what you said is

correct, pick something hard.

>> Yeah. Ideally, pick something that's a

bit outside or really outside your

current skill set. Uh that involves

motor and cognitive aspects like maybe

um and that's kind of tricky to to find,

right? I mean, with sport stuff, it

feels motor and cognitive because you

have to learn the rules of the game. You

have to in some cases interact with

others. with cognitive stuff. Um the

motor skills involved in writing or

turning a page, they're not that

significant, right? Um even with a video

game, I know [clears throat] video games

can improve reaction time and visual

search and things like that, but

basically your thumbs get real real

good. I actually went to a video game

competition. They have teams. A kid that

used to work for me, I was like, "What

do you want for kind of end of year

gift?" and he's like, I really want to

go to this video game championship. And

the kids actually who compete warm up

their hands.

>> The kids in the audience like have these

styrofoam things so they clap so they

don't make noise. So they and it was a

whole thing.

>> Yeah.

>> So I don't want to take anything away

from the the real sport. I I discovered

that is playing video games, but

>> mostly what was moving was thumbs and

fingers, not a lot of large scale motor

activity. Yeah. So, if you had to maybe

[clears throat] throw out three or four

things that are particularly potent

plasticity inducers, what would those

be?

>> This definitely doesn't have to be super

complicated. So, like the things that

you mentioned earlier, so because you

mentioned exercise and then skills,

right? And so, you could do those things

separately, right? I would maybe we'll

get into why aerobic and strength

training do different things to

different parts of the brain, right? So,

ideally, you do a little bit of both. if

you don't feel super compelled to go and

start a new sport, but you're getting

these inputs from elsewhere. Um, and so

you you would rather say learn a new

language, right, which we have which we

have some good evidence for, then that

combination is great. But if you're

thinking about some of the things that

we have very good evidence for that kind

of hit multiple um networks at the same

time, dancing is probably number one.

Lots

>> learning a new dance.

>> Learning a new dance. solo or with

someone else? I'm sure we're half

joking, but some people dance on their

own. Some people dance with someone

else.

>> So, like dancing on your own in your

living room, highly encouraged, right?

It's a great form, physical activity.

It's fun. You of course the um the best

evidence is for ballroom and line

dancing, which generally requires and so

there are meta analyses of these

interventions in older adults showing

that ballroom and line dancing have the

greatest effect on cognitive function.

And so both of those require other

people as well as learning you know

various sets of of movements. So you

have a you have skill learning you have

social interaction and you have a

physical activity component. There's

probably also the musical component

right you have to listen for the timing

of the music and those kinds of things

that that is its own skill set. So

dancing has a a large body of evidence

behind it. But then I think you know in

the exercise realm you've got all the

sort of ball sports, board sports, team

sports. Um, I think skateboarding would

be a great example. As long as you wear

a helmet and don't hit your head uh too

often. You know, most martial arts,

again, as long as somebody's not

punching you in the face too much.

>> Something like Brazilian

>> jiu-jitsu. Exactly. So, like you're um

there's a physical component, there's a

complex motor skill component. Usually,

there's a social component, there's a

there's a lot of uh responding, reacting

to the environment or your opponent. Uh,

right. So then talking about processing

speed again but then beyond that there's

some really interesting data on some

other creative arts that do seem to have

some effect on um you know network

stability and function in the brain

particularly the networks like the front

of prioral network that we know is

really important for like focus and

attention and its function does tend to

decrease with age. Um so uh things like

like creative or or visual arts um some

maybe some similar effects of learning a

language um

again um uh similar effects from

learning to play video games. Yes of

course there's no like big motor

patterns involved but you're having to

do um you know solve complex problems

you know uh react quickly to to a

changing environment that that kind of

stuff. So that's, you know, eight or

nine different things that that somebody

could try. And like just one of those, I

think, is going to be a new skill, a new

stimulus, often happens in a social

environment. Um, a number of different

things happening at the same time.

>> Any particular uh instruments?

>> I don't think anybody's looked at

instruments like the difference in

different instruments. So I would say

no. Pick pick one that you would that

you feel motivated and interested to

learn.

>> Yeah. dancing by oneself has a lower

shame quotient.

>> Well, the shame quot I think might be

might be important, right? the um you

know there's the discomfort of making

mistakes and we know how critical that

is for learning and so like you're I

think some of that can be important too

but if you do it in a in a class

everybody else is a beginner you're all

doing it together maybe that adds a fun

component because you can laugh at each

other when you don't get it right you

know so a few uh years ago I wrote a

paper with my colleague Josh Tknet about

this idea that um potentially one of the

reasons why we lose lose cognitive

function as we get older is because we

stop giving our brain novel inputs or

complex inputs that help maintain

function, drive neuroplasticity. And I

think one of the reasons that that

happens is because adults hate being bad

at things, right? You just like this

thought like you you you just imagined

it, right? I'm in a dance class and I'm

going to suck at dancing, right? I

imagine that I'm going to take my wife

to to a tango class. It's something I've

always wanted to do.

When I go in the first time, I imagine

I'm going to be like Arnold

Schwarzenegger and Jam Lee Curtis in

True Lies. Do you ever see that movie?

But anyway, so right at the beginning,

they're like they're spies and they're

doing the tango at this, you know, like

gangsters mansion or something. And it's

like he leans her over, she grabs the

rose from the table in her in her mouth.

Like I'm going to try that. I'm going to

drop my wife and she's going to hit her.

She's going to be mad at me and lots of

people are going to see and I'm going to

feel stupid, right? And [snorts] so

that's why we don't do those things. But

it's so critical to driving those

processes of learn of neuroplasticity

that we make those mistakes that we have

to kind of let go of some of that that

we feel as adults like we we think that

everybody expects us to be good at

everything and the best at everything

and you know we shouldn't fail we

shouldn't make mistakes but as you have

covered many times um it's so critical

to to do that and so I think

acknowledging that shame component

exists and leaning into it is going to

be a really important important part of

trying to maintain this function over

time.

>> Couple of quick anecdotes and then some

encouragement to do the tango class. Um

I'll start with tango. My grandparents

on my Argentine side did tango until

they're into their 80s.

>> So it can be done but they learned it

rather young. Um

>> and Tim Ferrris as I recall talked about

this one of his books. Yeah, he learned

tango. And um and that gets to the other

point which is I want to talk about sex

differences in uh results of experiments

on in plasticity but when you dance the

sorts of dances that we're talking about

so salsa tango

>> typically this is you know traditionally

the male leads

>> um years ago I had a girlfriend who was

really into salsa so I went salsa

dancing with her in the Bay Area one

night and it's it's a tricky thing if

you're not skil salsa dancer because

basically you're taking your girlfriend

to go dance with a bunch of other men,

you know, and then you you until you

learn. So the the it's it's there are

conditions that make it harder, social

conditions that make it harder for men

to learn than women to learn particular

types of dance, unless as Tim did, he

got a dance coach, a female dance coach

to teach him how to lead and then he

learned how to lead and then he was able

to dance tango competitively. I think I

have that right, Tim. They'll correct me

in the comments, but as as I recall,

that's the story. So there's that. Um

not that following is is trivial. It

requires some skill. But there the if

the person again traditionally the male

can't lead the whole thing it it doesn't

work

>> right. So um I just made you more

nervous about going to this class but

you should do it because um I had a

roommate when I was a posttock who was a

neurology resident at UCSF and she would

go do tango late at night and she would

come back a different person. And so

this is like the other piece here is you

know it seems that when we are trying

something truly new that involves

interactions with other people and we go

into that willingness to

enter beginner's mind or whatever it is

embrace the shame and as we start to get

even just a little bit better at

something. I mean it almost seems like

there's this kind of halo around the

rest of our life. We go to work the next

day differently. We interact with people

differently. like our nervous system is

changed. What do you think that is? I

mean, we can make up stories about

chemicals and maybe we should because

they're likely to be true. What do you

think that is? That like general change

in arousal like you're sleeping better,

you're you're more excited for the other

things in life when you're trying to

learn tango and you get just a little

bit better. What is that?

>> I don't think I would make up anything

about about chemicals. I think you could

boil a lot of it down to we like to be

good at stuff and we like to overcome

things, right? There's just like this

this like core need to be challenged and

then to overcome those challenges. And I

think there's a lot of downstream

effects of of not doing that and they

could be um you know related to mental

health. It could also be related to

physical health, right? because we think

about physical and and um cognitive or

or um you know stressor psychological

related challenges and and the process

of overcoming them because that's what

really drives you know a lot of physical

or or mental psychological growth and I

think that's something that you know

fundamentally is part of what we need on

a daily basis and so you did this thing

that you were bad at and you got better

at it and you proved to yourself hey I'm

capable I'm able to overcome challenges

is I'm able to you know engage and and

and do difficult things and I think the

psychological benefits of that you just

that process of engaging with a

challenge overcoming it uh working hard

to do that um I think that's just you

know almost like a core psychological

need that we have and then that

transfers to all these other things oh

yeah I can do these hard things I'm

going to do that other thing I'm excited

to try something else that's difficult

I'm excited to challenge myself again

and it needs to be something that feels

feels uh meaningful, feels difficult

enough that you have the ability to

overcome with some dedicated practice or

you know focus time working on it. If

it's too hard, right, you can have the

opposite effect, right? Like making

something so difficult somebody can't do

it and they just fail again and again

and again and again, right? That that

can obviously have the opposite effect.

But something that you know you can get

better at, you know, you can work on,

you can see progress, right? I think all

of that then has all these knock-on

effects.

>> Maybe we could talk about flow for a

second. you know, one of the most

bastardized terms in uh neuroscience

performance psychology and the rest.

When Cheeks Mahai talked about it

initially, um when he really defined the

term, it was about um being engaged in a

process where you have a certain level

of skill, but the thing you're trying to

do is just beyond your skill level. So,

really striving a bit and that kind of

general sense of well-being that can

come from that. Nowadays, I think people

assume flow is when you are able to do

something in the absence of kind of

feeling of effort. It's like you just

you you get the magic power kind of

thing, which is not what flow was

originally intended to to mean. I'd like

to know how you think of this concept of

flow and whether or not it's even a

meaningful term. And I I you know I tip

my hat to Stephen Cutotler and others

who have written about it and and

studied it and

>> a great respect for Stephen and um what

he's done uh with the concept and and uh

and I think it's a meaningful concept

but I don't think we really know how to

define it. And I think this is important

in the context of plasticity because I

think what we see in Harry Potter movies

and sci-fi and um you know fight club

and everything else is that suddenly

we're just going to be endowed with

these powers just because we want them

and need them and that is not how it

works.

>> Yeah.

>> So is flow an expression of skill or is

it the striving to attain a skill?

>> I think of flow as the maximal

expression of a complex learned skill.

like you said, you're like right at the

edge of your capabilities, but you're

still managing to maintain um maintain

function whatever whatever skill it is

that you're you're performing at.

The thing that really frustrates me is

that

because of that or you know some version

of their definition of flow, people like

well I've always got to search for flow

like everything happens in flow and like

we need to be in flow all the time which

doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

There's two different parts of this. So

one is that people assume that for

optimal performance you need to be in

flow. That is not true. Um flow is one

version of your of your of of being able

to you know perform at the best of your

abilities. If you think about this in

terms of sports performance there might

be broadly two states associated with

top level performance. One is flow

states the other is clutch states. And

so a clutch state um you are still at

the optimal level of arousal right if we

think about the arousal curve and

performance which we can come back to

but so at the optimal level of arousal

which is required for you know you to

perform the skill that you're trying to

perform but when you're in a clutch

state it still feels like hard work

right so like there are you you could

talk to any athlete about a time that

they um they performed well they won

they you know they did at the best of

their abilities but it was hard

cognitive work it hard physical work. It

was a slog, but they still managed to

perform well. That's a that's a clutch

state. And people can perform at the

best of their abilities in clutch

states. Um, and you know, even though

they're not in flow, it's not all coming

to them easily, right? It requires them

to like really focus and work hard to

get get the job done. And both of those

are perfectly reasonable states in which

to perform. And assuming that you have

to be in flow to perform just isn't true

if you look at like how you know

athletes perform in the moment. The

other side of it is that some people

have intimated that flow is required for

learning or like optimal learning

happens in flow which doesn't make any

sense. Right? If we if we talked about

making mistakes and errors and friction

required for learning that is not

conducive to flow because it's uh it can

be stressful, it could be frustrating

and sort of the other side of that is if

you know flow is expressing your skill.

If you want to get better at that skill,

you have to work even further beyond

your current capacities which which will

move you out of flow, right? because of

like the friction, the mistakes and the

errors that come from that. So I think

yeah, flow is super interesting and I I

wouldn't pretend to be an expert in

flow, but there are all these other

states where learning happens, where

performance happens that aren't flow and

that's fine, too, right? But sometimes

it's hard and that's okay.

>> I'm so glad you're here. I I've been

looking for this conversation for well

since I started the podcast because I

completely agree about flow and the

misunderstanding of the concept of of

flow. I've never heard of a clutch

state. Um is that a term that you coined

or something?

>> No, no, it's in the sports psychology

literature. They'll talk about

>> that's why I haven't seen it. Yeah, cuz

I'm very familiar with the

neuroplasticity literature, but I've

I've never heard of it. Maybe I'm just

not up to date on my reading. But um

thank you for introducing clutch state

which is when one is performing well but

it's it is involving and this is a term

I did make up sort of some limbic

friction like you have to push yourself

you're feeling constrained it's that

you're at that edge where it's there's

real challenge you're not you're

definitely not in flow.

>> Yeah. Uh, fantastic clutch state

everyone. Um, learn it, know it, embrace

it, um, live there for some period of

time in your life across your lifespan.

Uh, and you'll be better off. I I I mean

that. Maybe we could drill into this a

little bit more because you know several

times on this podcast or more we've

talked about the anterior midsulate

cortex the structure that you know

maintains size and super aers who take

on hard things and

you know this area of the brain that

seems associated with tenacity which

when stimulated people feel like an

impending challenge there's actually

neurosurgery experiments done by Joe

Parvey at Stanford people feel like oh

there's an impending challenge I'm going

to lean into it this is sounds more like

the clutch state than certainly and flow

state. So maybe the thing we need to

embrace is the clutch state. It's pretty

catchy. It's not quite as catchy as

flow, but but I I like it because um

it has an element of like friction kind

of written into it. You heard it first

from Tommywood folks uh not me. A good

friend who uh comes from the special

operations community. Uh we talked about

>> performance uh years ago and he said,

"Well, there's unskilled, skilled,

mastery, and virtuosity." M okay cool

and he said virtuosity is when someone

who has mastery pushes out to an edge of

effort

where they're sort of inviting in the

unknown. They don't quite know what

they're going to do next. They they have

some semblance of an idea like they're

not being um haphazard

>> but there's an inviting in of the

unknown and they find themselves at a

new level.

I've probably mentioned this documentary

four times in the last four episodes,

but when Andy Stumpf, former uh tier one

SEAL operator, came on this podcast,

former wings sutor,

>> Red Bull High Performance team came on

here, he suggested a podcast that I'm

now suggest he suggested, excuse me, a

documentary that I highly recommend,

which is The Dark Wizard, which is about

Dean Potter, who was a free climber, a

free solo climber, turn wings, etc. And

you see in that documentary how somebody

who's pushing to their edge

and a little bit beyond where the

consequences the death consequence is

able to access levels of skill that are

like jaw-dropping I think even to him.

>> Mhm.

>> So does that make sense? Like is that

sort of how you think about unskilled

skilled mastery virtuosity? Do you think

virtuosity is like where someone's like,

"All right, I've mastered this thing.

Now put me in a situation or I'll put

myself in a situation where I don't know

what's going to happen and maybe it'll

all go wrong, but when it doesn't, new

levels of performance emerge

>> as it's described that way." Um, because

you people might talk about virtuosos in

a skill just because like they're so

much better than everybody else, right?

But like that that that

definition requires a specific scenario

and moment of performance, right?

>> So then that sounds a lot like how I

would think about flow,

>> right? And so like when you when you

look at some of the classic descriptions

from individuals who've been in that

kind of level. So like um there's

there's one from so I I do a lot of work

in Formula 1. So there's one from Aton

Center where he's

>> from who? I'm sorry. and Senna. Um,

>> the driver.

>> The driver.

>> Sra.

>> Yeah. Senna. Senna. Excuse me. Sra is

David Senna. The great podcaster. He's

the He's the virtuoso of of uh

performance and business and finance

podcasting.

>> Don't let any of your uh F1 loving

friends hear that part of the podcast.

>> No, no, I like Sen. [laughter]

Some people consider him to be the the

the best Formula 1 driver of all time.

He died tragically in a in a crash. Um

but there's this um famous quote from

him where he's driving in the Monaco

Grand Prix and basically what he

describes is that he's like going faster

and faster and faster. He's like this is

beyond my capabilities. Like he doesn't

feel like he's actually connected to

doing the thing. It's just kind of like

happening. It's exact it's exact like

he's going seconds faster around the lap

than anybody else. And so like that's

kind of what like he is so good, right?

he achieved mastery and in that in that

moment he's displaying virtuosity in

that kind of um in that under that kind

of definition and so like that that

feels like there's a lot of overlap

there.

>> Yeah. Ever since seeing this uh Dark

Wizard uh documentary which I've watched

twice all the way through because it has

a mental health component. It's a it's a

brilliant and beautifully shot

documentary recently released. I um I

think about this virtuosity thing like

constantly. Uh, but I I love this notion

of the clutch state because it sounds to

me that

that's the state that we want to seek.

And the assumption is that high

performers are in this relaxed, mellow

state, but I'm guessing they spend a

significant amount of time there and

drilling the really boring stuff to make

sure they can get there. Yeah.

>> Um, Twilight Tharp, who's in her 80s,

uh, worldass choreographer,

sat in the chair that I'm in and

described the daily routine of her

worldass dancers. They go through the

most basic drills

>> every single day, but every iteration

for hours upon hours upon hours before

they begin quote unquote practice,

right? Before before they try and

embrace the the new performance piece.

>> Mh. but over and over and over often

after multiple hours of morning exercise

I think we we don't see all of that

foundational work and that it needs to

be maintained which raises a question do

we always need to maintain uh practice

the fundamentals

>> before I answer your question I think

there's there's another useful thing

just kind of to remember that relates to

all of this from you know in um you know

athletes and sports particularly on the

training side there's this general idea

of thirds right? A third of your

sessions,

>> training, um, learning, whatever it is,

are going to feel great. You're going to

feel really good. You're just going to

get stuff, you know, immediately. It's

going to just come to you. Um, a third

will just be average, right? And a third

are just going to suck and you just have

to show up and get it done.

>> But this is all in the same day or this

week across across the week, across

months, across years, right? This stuff

undulates. And the the the main reason

why I say that is because

related to this sort of glorification of

flow is this idea that these things

should just like always come easily to

us. But that's completely antithetical

to the idea that we have to work hard

and challenge ourselves in order to

build capacity drive neuroplasticity. So

there's kind of this weird tension

between what people are seeking versus

what is actually just the part of the

the grind of getting better and you know

o over time and sometimes it is a grind

and that's you know again that's okay

doesn't mean you're doing it wrong you

maybe it means you're doing it right

when you then think about maintaining

the fundamentals I think yes but

probably it's going to depend on the

scenario that that you're that you're

thinking about um because sometimes the

skill that you're performing, the

fundamentals are kind of baked into that

in in some way. So, it kind kind of

depends on what the what the

fundamentals really are. Maybe, you

know, if it's um so I'm thinking about

one specific study that was done in in

pianists. Um so this is kind it was kind

of related to the Ericson studies in uh

in violinists, right? But this time they

were looking at uh pianists. And so they

had four they had four groups uh older

and younger. So the younger was like 20s

and 30s, older were 50s and 60s, expert

and amateur pianists. And so the experts

came from um German like music

conservatories. Um and then they they

looked at um sort of basic skills

related to um you know moving the

fingers and other things that that you

you would do playing the piano. And um

so they were like very task specific

skills related to piano playing. And

what they [snorts] found was that the

most important predictor of how well

somebody performed at those piano

specific skills was not their age, it

was how much they practice. So it's just

that getting those reps in helps you

maintain those sort of like basic

functions. And maybe right when you're

playing very complex piano pieces,

you're encompassing all those

fundamentals anyway, right? You don't

need to you don't need to like do your

you don't need to do your scales every

day because some of that stuff is kind

of built in. But you will also see

people as they warm up say you maybe

they will do scales and things cuz

that's part of just like you know the

the warm up maybe part maybe that's

routine right this is me getting in the

mo in in the mode of you know playing a

complex piece but then maybe some of it

is just kind of helping to maintain

those fundamental skills. I'd like to

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>> So, now's your opportunity to kill the

10,000 hours. I mean, I know other

people have attempted to, but what what

does that really boil down to? Is it

simply that about 8 hours a day of

practice for a dedicated period of time

is what leads to rapid plasticity and

that's what was measured or is there

really a a some sort of rule about time

under uh seeking clutch state? The

simple answer is what the study showed

was that 10,000 hours was the average

amount of time that an expert violinist

had spent practicing by the time they

reached 20 years old. That's what the

study showed. They weren't even experts

by that point. That was how much they'd

practiced, you know, essentially in

their youth. So that number of hours

doesn't even translate over to true

expertise in violinists in this one

specific example. So I don't think

there's some fixed number of hours uh

required. It is interesting. Other parts

of that study kind of looked at the the

the practice routines of these expert

violinists and what they found was that

they tended to practice for about two

sessions of 60 to 90 minutes a day. And

I think that's a pretty good rule,

right? If you're going to do something

hard, you're pushing beyond your current

skill level, focusing for 60 to 90

minutes, maybe with, you know, a couple

of breaks in there, um, a couple of

times a day, that's probably about as

much as most people can do. And I think

that also relates to how we perform on a

day-to-day basis in other areas of life,

right? We kind of expect that we can go

to work and we can work really hard for

eight hours straight during the day, but

like the brain doesn't really work like

that. If we're doing hard um, cognitive

work, right? you're being you're focused

and highly challenged as you might be if

you're a um you know a future virtuoso

on the violin. You're trying to you know

really practice and push yourself. You

can only really do that for you know

chunks of 20 to 30 minutes maybe a

couple of times of the break right? So

like that's why Pomodoro, even though

there's no like good studies on the

Pomodoro technique, like for those time

periods, you know, 25 minutes with a

5-minute break a few times, they do kind

of fit into that kind of rhythm that

translates over to multiple areas where

we might want to use our brains. Um, and

just remember that hard cognitive work

and that process of learning can only

really happen in those kinds of size of

of chunks if you want to do them

sustainably.

>> Yeah. Before I started writing my book,

somebody uh who's published several uh

very well-received books said, "You can

only write for about four solid hours

per day

>> uh broken up into a couple of sessions."

>> I was like, "Come on." I mean, like I'm

I'm not trying to boast, but I used to

go into the lab and sit down and work on

a grant for six hours or something like

that. And I started thinking like, was

it really six hours? Go in there, see my

students and postocs, sit down. Okay,

then there's lunch. I need to walk my

dog. Yeah. you know, and there were some

late nights, but then the next morning

I'm kind of dragging because I was in,

you know, in my office really late and

you you get real honest with yourself

real quick and you go, "Oh, okay." In

the periods of time where I definitely

pushed to the 6 8 10 12 hours of just

non-stop work as a deadline approached,

there was a compensatory drop in output

after after you clicked send. And so I I

think

>> you're right. They're right. It's

somewhere between maybe I mean you're

saying 60 to 90 minutes and they're

saying 4 hours, but not a whole lot more

than that for real focused in clutch

state work.

>> Yeah.

>> So really digging in and no

distractions, no phone, no checking your

text messages, just you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you ever give yourself uh forced

constraints to get real work done?

>> Not to force it. I will say that um one

of the best ways to like truly get

deep focused work done is to eliminate

distractions, right? That's one of the

most important things that you can do.

So close the email. I like put my phone

in a different room or something because

like nowadays your own, you know, close

Slack, I have Slack, Teams, my lab and I

uh we uh interact on, you know, we

message back and forth on WhatsApp. Like

there's email. I've got like five or six

different ways that people can like

constantly try and get my attention,

right? So, like eliminating distractions

is really important. And again, I return

to Gloria Mark's work. She wrote an an

excellent book called Attention Span if

anybody's like really interested in

this. Um, but you get used to a pattern

of distraction such that when you're um

not actually being distracted, you will

distract yourself,

>> right?

>> Um, and but you can be trained out of

that as well. But so you know that thing

where you're trying to do work and you

like reach for your phone for no reason.

It's because your brain is kind of used

to this pattern of you around about now

I'm somebody will text me or send me an

email and I'll and I'll reach my my

phone. So you you go looking for it

>> even if it hasn't happened. But again

you can train yourself out of that if

you if you have periods where you're not

getting constantly distracted. So I will

eliminate notifications. Um, but at

least for me, what I found is that if I

if I have a ton of friction in terms of

trying to get something done, I will

usually step away from it. Um, because

there's something in there that just

like needs to click or come back before

I can like really engage in it. Or

>> if you're at a sticking point.

>> Yeah. Mhm.

>> So if if I'm at a sticking point or it's

like if something feels like it's just

not coming in the moment, uh I will

usually switch over to to to something

else, which is also kind of a normal

it's a it's it's one of a a possible set

of patterns of work, which is that you

have two or three projects you're

working on on any given time. If one

just like isn't quite working, then you

can switch over to the other one and

come back to it. [snorts] And then like

the alternative is that when the

deadline is so close and uh you know

this often happens with a with a grant

deadline or you know when I was writing

my book and there's a you know a book

deadline and you I've got to get this to

my editor in um how however many days or

hours

I I tend to just not need to to

eliminate those things because I'll I'll

just I'll just focus in like I I I don't

feel that kind of draw to be distracted

by other things. But that usually only

happens for relatively short periods of

time, right? It's going to be a day or

two or hours during a day rather than,

you know, extended periods of time.

>> Are you familiar with this recent study

about phone on the table, phone in the

bag? We would just remind people that if

you're your phone has to be out of the

room, even if it's in your bag beneath

your chair turned off,

>> you can still focus, but there's a a

cost.

>> Your cognitive flexibility, etc. really

suffer. So that means that the brain is

unconsciously expecting a call. You're

sort of waiting for it. And and the way

you describe this attentional break

expectation thing um that we get

entrained to interruptions is uh really

interesting. Um maybe this is why

meditation is such a useful tool for

improving focus is that it's just a

forced no breaks

>> yeah thing. Although it's pretty easy to

drift in meditation if you are not used

to doing 20 minutes of meditation. You

sit down to do that you set the timer

like your brain can end up way off the

trail. there could be some benefit to

that as well, right? Because there's,

you know, without kind of building that

in and I and I don't routinely meditate,

but um unless you have some parts of

your day where actually you're not

either putting in information,

distracting yourself, thinking about a

specific thing, right? You don't

necessarily get that time to integrate.

Um, you know, that's kind of, you know,

the classic is you come up with your

best ideas in the shower, right? because

that's actually the time when you don't

have your phone on you and you're not

watching TV and you're not doing all

these other things, you know, at the at

the same time. So maybe yes, that's not

what meditation is formally for, but it

could potentially be beneficial if your

if your mind's going to wander, you

know, making new connections, um you

know, coming up with new ideas, having

that space and time to do it, you know,

could potentially be beneficial, too.

>> In these studies, these large scale uh

trials, what was the diet intervention?

Can we distill it down to some things

that um everyone should do or ought to

consider?

>> Most interventions in the sort of um

cognitive and psychological space are

focused on some version of the

Mediterranean diet. Um there's uh the

mind diet um Mediterranean intervention

to prevent neurogenerative delay. It

came out of the Rush U memory and aging

project and it's basically just a

version of the um Mediterranean diet

kind of focused on um dementia

prevention and and the way they

initially created it was they looked at

foods that people ate more or less of

and created a score and those who had a

higher score tends to you know had a

lower risk of later de dementia. It

wasn't an intervention when it was when

it was first um developed but that was

kind of the version. And it it's kind of

combination of the Mediterranean diet

and the DASH diet which is um like a a

anti-hypertension blood pressure

treatment type diet. So it's uh you know

seafood, vegetables, berries, whole

grains, that kind of stuff.

>> Not too much uh saturated fat or animal

protein.

>> And so this is very similar to the diet

they used in the Smiles trial which was

the first randomized control trial in

depression that showed significant

improvements in in mood symptoms. I

think the the principles are useful, but

there's not necessarily a huge amount of

evidence to say that like this is the

way that you you should or you have to

eat uh to maintain cognitive health.

There was actually um a big trial of the

of the mind diet. It was published in

the New England Journal of Medicine a

couple of years ago and they compared uh

the mind diet to standard caloric

restriction. Um and actually they saw

similar benefits in both in both groups.

There have been big observational

studies that have looked at how much

their diet looks like a Mediterranean

diet. And those whose diets look more

like Mediterranean diets, yes, they have

a lower risk of dementia. Of course,

right, this is observational data,

right? So, it's not you can't say it's

causal. But what's interesting in some

of these studies, so a big one that came

out of the UK bio bank was that they um

took out individual uh foods or food

components of the Mediterranean diet to

see if that changed the relationship

between the Mediterranean diet and

dementia risk. And there was no food or

you know olive oil or food group or you

eating more or less meat that changed

the relationship between the

Mediterranean diet and dementia risk. So

what that tells me is it's much more

about whole foods. they're nutrientdense

rather than avoiding any you have to eat

you have to consume lots of olive oil

right or you have to restrict meat

because if those things are eaten in the

context of all this other stuff it's

really that bigger context of diet

quality and nutrient density that really

matters so the the parts of diet that I

think about are the you know there's

three so there's energy there's

nutrients and then there's overall

dietary pattern. So, one of the

confounding things about that trial I

told you about the mind diet versus

caloric restriction is you're like,

well, the mind diet should win out,

right? How does caloric restriction do

just as well? And [snorts] in the kind

of average population,

we tend to have some issues with

metabolic health and have been in a

state of chronic energy excess for some

period of time. There's been some very

nice studies that have looked at brain

aging and brain volume or brain reserve

um across different populations. There

was um there was uh one group that

looked at different um tribes in

Bolivia, the Bolivian Chiman who are

hunter gatherer group, the Metan who are

kind of an intermediate group between

sort of the Chiman and like a standard

kind of industrialized group and then

industrialized humans in the US and

Europe. And what they found is there's

kind of this um bell-shaped curve

between energy availability and brain

volume. And in general, brain volume,

right, the more the better, right, we

think. And so if you're chronically

calorically restricted, your brain is

smaller um because you just don't have

the resources to invest in, you know,

the structure um and to maintain it. At

the other end, you see the same thing.

So if you're chronically in a chronic

state of chloric excess, you also tend

to have a smaller brain on average. And

this is related to metabolic disease um

you know and you know potentially and

what comes with it um higher levels of

inflammation high blood pressure things

like that that we know can negatively

impact the brain. So the most important

thing and I think this is where some of

the benefits of caloric restriction

happened in that in that trial compared

to the mind diet was that you know

people's cognition improved just because

they decreased their energy intake to a

point that was you know more you know

was essentially kind of what their brain

kind of needed or you know kind of

supported their overall physical health

which then affects you know cognitive

health and and brain volume and and

brain function. So the first thing to do

is to make sure that you're eating

enough but not too much right and that's

very simplistic but like energy is

really critical energy availability not

too low not too high then the next thing

that you need is there is is nutrients

we know there are several critical

nutrients for uh related to cognitive

function and risk of dementia. Um the

ones that we have the best evidence for

are vitamin D, iron, omega-3 fatty

acids, uh the B vitamins uh involved and

the B vitamins involved in methylation.

So particularly B12 and folate also

potentially B6 and riboflavin although

that might depend a little bit more on

on the individual. Then there are some

other nutrients that you know have some

pretty good evidence for them. So many

of the antioxidant uh polyphenols things

that you get from berries, coffee, tea,

chocolate, the carotenoids that make

things orange, yellow and red. Um

lutein, zeazanthin, aazanthin if it

comes from seafood that's that's what

makes shrimp and salmon pink. Um and

then you know some other aspects like

dietary fiber seems to have you know

some some benefits as well.

>> Not magnesium.

>> So magnesium is absolutely absolutely in

there in there too. Um and in general I

think um and the so magnesium uh zinc um

then there's some of the structural

lipid components things like choline and

ethanolamine that you might get from um

nuts and seeds or eggs. They have some

slightly less you like less evidence.

you really when you're looking at um

brain changes over time and dementia

risk, but they certainly do seem to be

related to to cognitive function. So,

there are some studies that show that

those who have lower magnesium intakes

tend on average to perform less well on

some some cognitive function tests. So,

all of those do seem to be important. I

have two questions about nutrients and

brain health in the short and

[clears throat] long term. And they have

to do with interactions between

nutrients,

>> which at least to my understanding are

rarely explored. You know, you'll see

studies of supplementing omega-3 or

having people eat some fatty fish or or

less and so on, but rarely in the

presence or absence of some other

vitamin that, you know, that can

potentially impact the same pathways. So

there's synergy. There's also, you know,

necessity. So that could impact results.

The other piece is on what time scale

are these nutrients needed and on what

time scale are they metabolized? So

maybe to just kind of drill into the

second question first. So you know I'm

not out here as like the defender of

supplements, but I've been taking

supplements in various forms and eating

whole foods and eating as generally

healthily. You know, less so when I was

younger, but still pretty healthy and

more so as I get older. But here's where

my brain goes. Wait, whole food is

great, but let's say dark leafy greens

have a bunch of things in them that are

fundamentally important for brain and

bodily health. Great. And they have

fiber, etc.

How many times a week am I eating dark

leafy greens? Let's say I do Monday,

Tuesday, Wednesday. I'm great. But then

I'm traveling on, you know, Thursday,

Friday. Should I be just supplementing

Thursday, Friday? Am I good until the

next week? I think one of the reasons

why eating really well, I think everyone

knows what that means, not enough

calories, not too many, mostly whole

foods, etc., enough vegetables, fruits,

and high quality protein and quality

fats.

I think the reason why supplements still

become enticing to me, maybe even

necessary, is because you can take them

every day very easily. So you can make

sure that you're in range and maybe

above range. So let's take one of these

things. Okay, omega-3 fatty acids. I I

believe that the data are pretty

compelling. They can be helpful for

health, maybe even brain health.

Certainly, I believe that. But let's say

the early part of my week is omega-3

rich and the later part of my week is

omega-3 poor.

Am I good? Versus, you know, spreading

it out across the week. it just becomes

difficult to eat in a truly healthy way

if uh if it's the case that it has to be

consistent every 24 hours. So what do we

know?

>> So again, I think we're often tempted to

over complicate this and try and think,

oh, you know, I have to hit all these

things at this interval and if I can't

do that, then I have to supplement. And

in reality, we probably have more buffer

in the system than than we realize. So,

um, omega-3 fats is a really good

example. Your adapose tissue, your fat

tissue is a depo. You know, it kind of

stores excess omega-3s. I actually wrote

a paper on this with a colleague of

mine, Rory Heath, a few years ago. The

longchain omega-3s that we have in our

in our fat stores um may help to explain

why supplementation does or doesn't work

in some of these trials because

>> some people just have more kind of

hanging around. And if you eat more than

you need on one day,

um especially in a state of caloric

excess, um that's going to be stored in

your fat tissue. And then when uh you're

sleeping or when you uh initiate uh

lipolysis, the breakdown of fat. So