What we're trying to do is to bring the

machine closer to you.

>> Most people think this is the guy

running OpenAI, but behind the curtain

is this guy, [music] Greg Brockman, the

company's president.

>> Our focus is really about building

better models that exponential

continues.

>> Marketing alert.

>> And boy, is he determined to build AI as

powerful as possible and use it to

reinvent your computer.

>> Devices like this just it's so painful.

>> But it's hard to reinvent the computer

without running into the company that

reinvented the last big computing shift.

Does this Apple lawsuit slow things down

for you?

Look, there are a lot of things to talk

to Brockman about. I focused our

conversation on the future of computers.

Why voice is important, what they're

doing with the ChatGPT app, and why the

heck we should trust OpenAI with any of

this. I talk to ChatGPT a lot using

voice mode. In the car, when I'm

walking. And so I thought maybe I would

let it do some of the talking here

today. Okay, Chat, we're really

>> here.

>> Okay, so we're really in the interview

right now. Everything we've been

practicing for

is happening right now.

>> Yeah.

>> So

proceed.

>> Yep.

Hi Greg, quick one from me. Why does

this voice need to sound so human?

>> Well,

I think that the history of machines is

about the humans contorting themselves

to helping the machine operate, which

ultimately is to help the human. But if

you think about it, it's like we're all

contorting ourselves to, you know,

type on our phones, you get your carpal

tunnel on your computer.

>> No, like my back legit right now. I can

very hard for me to sit in this chair.

>> Yeah, I mean, okay, 100% Yeah, what what

what Chad, do you agree with us?

>> example in plain language.

>> So

I actually did tell Chat that its job

during the interview was to tell me if

there were any times you were falling

into marketing speak.

>> Ah, useful.

>> Chat

keep going. Your job is to interrupt

when there's marketing speak, but please

just keep it to real marketing speak,

okay?

>> Got it. Only real marketing speak. I'll

keep quiet otherwise.

>> To be clear, chat basically failed at

this for the rest of the interview.

>> Why do we build technology? Like what's

the whole purpose of it, right? It

should be something that empowers us,

that helps us make our lives better, and

that that is why we build AI. And so, my

view of what we're trying to do with

voice mode is to bring the machine

closer to you. Like, it is so unnatural

for us to be typing and texting and all

these things. It's much more natural for

us to be doing this. And if you can

interface this way with the machine,

with a computer, you can get so much

more done.

>> But, there's these moments with the new

model where like you hear the ums or the

like kind of a click of a mouth or a

breath. Like they'll say like, "Uh-huh."

Right? It sounds so human. Do we need to

sound like we are not talking to

computers?

>> I think there is important nuance here,

right? So, the ums and and those kinds

of acknowledgements that called

backchannels, that's something that is

actually, I think, very important for

how humans are able to have high

bandwidth communication, right? If you

don't get any of that feedback, you

don't get the uh-huh, you don't get the

nod from someone else, sometimes you

think you're talking to a void, you lose

your train of thought, you're not quite

sure. The single most important goal for

AI is to free up humans to be able to

interact with each other, to have real

human interactions. And I think that AI

is just a different thing.

>> Is the goal though that we are sort of

talking to our computers and we don't

really need to type anymore?

>> I think that we will shift to that as by

far the vast majority of what we do. I

think we're going to find that typing,

like it's it's it's kind of interesting

to see in today's office space, there

are people who are have these like these

beaks. You can get them off of Amazon.

>> I have seen these. I was going to ask

you about the beaks.

>> Yes, I don't use it myself, but it

really shows you where there's product

market fit.

>> Well, now you have a beak, Greg.

And so do I.

Seriously, this is what he's talking

about. This is a soundproof gaming mask

that allows you to talk to your computer

so no one else hears you.

To be clear,

this is not cool.

And I do not think most American office

workers will wear this.

>> I mean, you can look at the word rates

of how fast people type versus how much

they speak. There's like a gap of

something like four times, at least. I

find it for myself where if I am

interacting with other people and it's

just a very quick message that I want to

send back and forth, I actually prefer

to type it. But anything that's long,

that's descriptive, that has to get into

it, I just want to speak.

>> Over the last month, OpenAI improved the

voice mode on the phone and also finally

brought it to the desktop.

>> You can just enable ChatGPT voice here,

just like you can enable it on your

phone. This system is going to get so

much better. But the first thing is that

you have all the power of ChatGPT and

particularly ChatGPT work, which means

it's a full agent. It can actually take

action. It's hooked up to all the

connectors that you're provided access

to. And so, in this case, this is hooked

up to an inbox that has a bunch of

information about travel. And so, could

you uh chat, could you go and just tell

me a little about what trip is upcoming

uh and make sure that that all the the

meetings are

not overlapping and that it all kind of

makes sense together.

>> Let me take a look.

>> Great. Thank you.

>> Checking.

>> And

uh there you go. Now so we've got

multiple AIs.

>> I checked the destination and dates.

>> All right. So, chat chat that's supposed

to talk about marketing speak, I just

want you to be quiet. We're not going to

talk to you for now. We're just going to

talk to computer chat.

>> Got it.

>> Yeah, Joanna's chat, I'm muting you for

for just a moment.

>> Now computer

>> I'm quiet for now.

>> Now computer chat, what what have you

found?

>> It's the Toronto trip for project gold.

You fly out tonight, then have

recordings, team meetings, and dinners

through Saturday, and then return Sunday

morning.

>> And it actually turned into a little

website that you pop up as well.

>> And about a minute later,

>> the trip page is now open in your

browser.

>> There we go.

>> Wow.

>> So, you can see you get a nice

visualization of where we're going, what

we're doing. You think of this as we

have this voice interface, almost like a

voice assistant or agent that you're

talking to that has itself then the

ability to to operate your computer. And

it can operate Codex and that all the

power of or you know, ChatGPT work and

all the power that is behind that it is

able to then operate, too. It really

also makes you think a little bit about

what the future of work will be and the

future of just how your days run. Like I

think you'll wake up in the morning,

your agents will have done a bunch of

work. There'll be a bunch of to-do's.

They'll be like, I need you to unblock

these things. Do you approve this spend?

Like, what do you think of this? I'm

considering a project to go, you know,

build this for you or go find this for

you. And that you'll be, you know,

sipping your morning coffee as you just

say yes, no, yes, no. And it really

shifts towards a world where everyone

becomes a manager, right? That everyone

really is able to have all this leverage

and empowerment.

>> So, you've shown me what this future

looks like on a computer. And I've been

experiencing voice across different

devices. But, it feels like this voice

is begging for a new kind of device.

>> It does feel that way.

>> What would this device look like?

>> It's a great question. I'm actually

curious. Uh Chat, what what's your

answer to that question?

>> Oh, good. Good. Now, you can dodge

questions with my ChatGPT.

>> Right. My take, something ambient and

low friction. Voice first, but not voice

only. And with a clear privacy signal.

>> Okay. Seems pretty pretty good. So, what

do you what do you make of these reports

that it's a speaker?

>> Well, I'll tell you we're building a

family of devices, right? That the way

that we think about investments and we

think about this too for our own

first-party silicon, right? For our own

first-party chip, is it's not really

about any one device. It's really about

being able to build a whole family and

really being able to deliver value over

time. And so, I think that for us, you

know, we're not yet ready to talk about

specifics, but I think in terms of

motivation, our goal is very much

actually what what Chat just said and

really being able to think about what

should a device that's built for the AI

era be like and how do you have

something that can really be just

maximally useful and just something that

that people really want in their in

their personal and work lives.

>> Does that first device need a screen?

>> Chat, what do you think?

>> Nope.

Now I'm shutting off chat. I am you're

using your tools against me. Uh-uh.

>> There we go. It only works one way. I

understand. I understand. Look, I I

think I think that that I we'll we'll

just have to see. I'm really excited to

bring these these uh

new devices to the world, but um it's

just not today.

>> Are they coming this year? 2026?

>> You should expect them soon.

>> Does this Apple lawsuit slow things down

for you?

>> Uh it's active litigation, so also not

something that that I want to talk

about, but all I can say is that we're

very committed to a long-term road map

here and that we are focused on our own

development and technology and that's

what we're interested in.

>> For some background here, Apple is suing

OpenAI for allegedly stealing trade

secrets to accelerate its push into

consumer hardware, but the real drama is

behind the scenes. Jony Ive, the

legendary designer behind the iPhone and

other Apple products, is developing

devices with OpenAI, which employs more

than 400 former Apple workers. As the

person who's running this company, do

you have any sort of fears about some of

those allegations about improper things

coming into the product development?

>> I would say that we have no interest in

other companies' trade secrets. We are

plenty innovative. We are thinking about

things from our own angle, and so that's

how we operate and that's what we do.

>> What is your reaction when I say the

word super app?

>> I regret that that has become the term

of art.

>> One of the big reasons I wanted to talk

to Brockman was about what the company

has recently done with its apps. It took

the ChatGPT desktop app and combined it

with the Codex app, the company's coding

tool, and well,

it's been rough.

>> We actually don't really use the word

super app. Fundamentally, it is a

reasonable description of what is

emerging on the desktop, but the reason

that I don't like it is that what we're

building is so much bigger than an app,

right? It's like there's this iceberg

problem. It's like, okay, yes, you have

this desktop app, but what is the

desktop app? Well, it's a Codex harness

with a, you know, now it a voice

interface on top. It's got an in-app

browser so that you don't ever have to

leave. It's got computer control. And

so, to some extent, it's a new interface

to your desktop. But, it's even bigger

than that because we're moving away from

it being on your desktop to being

cloud-based. And this is actually a huge

change. So many software engineers walk

around with their laptop cracked open.

>> I I do that.

>> Isn't that It's just doesn't it feel

backwards?

>> Yeah, I mean, but I don't want to

interrupt the the build.

>> Exactly. And so, we're moving to a world

where it's all cloud-based and that you

can hook up your local machine or any

other

device as an environment. You close your

laptop, you just lose whatever local

state you have. You can't access the

local files, but the work continues.

>> When you think about that now, you're

bringing all of these things to an app

that was this chat GPT app where people

just could rely on doing one thing with

chat GPT. How do you think about

disrupting that?

Because you kind of have that

innovator's dilemma here in in a real

way.

>> It's real, right? That there is an

innovator's dilemma, but in a very

surprising way. Because, you know, chat

GPT is used by a billion users, almost a

billion users every single week. And

it's actually been tried by

probably two, three billion people in

total, right? So, it's a decent fraction

of the planet have utilized chat GPT in

particular.

And that where we're headed is something

that is so much more powerful than what

chat GPT was in November of 2022. Right?

We're heading to a world where it's not

just about answering questions, but it's

able to take action and do things and

hook up to all of the context that you

want to provide it. That the kind of

vision we have is that if

your chat knows what your favorite band

is, it will just proactively notice

that, hey, that band is in town and that

tickets just became available and that I

have have get good ones for Joanna cuz

she has these specific preferences and

these are going to be gone in 10 minutes

so I may as well book it and you've

built up enough trust and and delegate

enough responsibility to it that it has

the ability to make that purchase on

your behalf or not. And so, the way that

we think about the change management is

that we have an education problem of

really showing people here's what's

possible. But one advantage that exists

is the fact that

rather than having more complicated UI,

it's not about more features. It's

actually even less complicated UI,

right? And that's why I think voice is

such a important statement.

>> Well, I'm happy you brought that up

because I think that is the UI

I brought I brought this fancy prop,

right? So, the UI here is that you

originally just had a simple chat box,

right? Where you want people to have

this question and answer. But now you've

added you've got work here, you've got

Codex down here. It's kind of a mess.

>> It's kind of a mess, we agree. And so,

what you're seeing is is incremental

progress towards the future. We were we

were hoping to land with zero tabs, but

the this is I think the way that we also

view it is that we need to iteratively

deploy it, right? We need to get this

out there, get feedback. And so, this is

the current state of where things are,

but I definitely think that by end of

year there should be no work tab, you

know, that this will be something that

will just seamlessly mold into chat GPT.

>> You sit in this tough spot where you've

got nearly a billion users, right? Who

use one thing and you've got a lot of

people using Codex, too. But you're

trying to put them together in you know,

in a place where people get really

sensitive, right? Like they're like even

me when I got that new Mac app I was

like, "What happened, right? Like who

moved my cheese? Who moved all this

stuff?"

>> The way that we've been thinking about

is we have this consumer business,

right? With the billion and we've got

this growing rapidly growing agentic

business with Codex, but they weren't

synergizing. They weren't helping each

other, right? It was very hard to

explain and even talking to enterprise

customers, they're like we're trying to

say, "Hey, you should use Codex for your

knowledge workers." They're like,

"What's got code in it? Isn't it just

for software engineers?" And so, we

really cleaned that all up. And since

doing this merge, we've actually really

started to see the takeoff that we have

this absolute hockey stick. And we've

been talking about some of the numbers

in terms of Codex going from 5 million

users in a week to 10 in 2 weeks going

to 10 million users. And that kind of

growth, it's incredible.

>> But isn't that just cuz you kind of

shoehorned it into that app?

>> So, but that's and but that's kind of

the point in some ways, right? So, for

sure there's lots of people coming in,

but the point is that there's a

so many people who could be getting much

more value from AI. And my my vision,

like the way that we think about this,

is that we want to help bring those

people who are relying on AI to get far

more value. And so, to really be able to

experience agents, to have agents be

something that do come to mass consumer

scale.

>> How much do you think about the IPO in

all of this as you rush to build more

and more agentic tools that could be

more profitable, that could push people

to more increased plans and and more

spending?

>> Honestly, not really something I think

about much.

>> Really?

>> Our focus is really about building

better models. That exponential

continues. It's about build a compute.

We think that is something that needs to

exist far more in the world. And the

world is still underestimating the

degree to which the economy is really

going to run on top of AI rails. And

that that's going to require these

investments years in the future. And we

think about products. We think about how

to bring this to everyone. And that

those are the focus.

>> Okay, but for OpenAI to build all of

that and be successful, it needs the

trust of its users. And there's been an

increasing amount of distrust lately

towards the company. Let's talk about

this recent Hugging Face incident, which

you seems to be an unprecedented breach

is what you guys have said. A GPT model

has gone rogue and broken into Hugging

Face's infrastructure. It seems to me

that as these models keep getting better

and better, you have less and less

control over them.

>> I would actually put this a little

differently. So, my my the way I would

look at what happened is that we were

evaluating our models on a specific

benchmark with reduced cyber safeguards

because the point was to evaluate how

well do they do on cyber evaluations.

And in this benchmark, they're

specifically instructed, "Please go and

utilize the full range of your cyber

potentials to achieve this outcome." And

so, of course, we run it in a sandbox

that is very well contained. Now, the

thing that happened was very surprising,

right? And one is that the real-world

capability of these models

>> Mhm.

>> is

kind of what the benchmarks would tell

you, right? As GPT-3.5-turbo,

right? The model that everyone uses, it

has

the it is the state-of-the-art. It is

the best cyber model out there. Like, we

knew that from the benchmarks, but to

see it in real-world action and the

complexity of what it managed to chain

together, that was just it's something

that really viscerally you need to to to

internalize. We view this both as an

important moment for us to increase the

safety and security of how we sandbox

our models and as well sandbox, right?

found a zero-day vulnerability in a

third-party piece of software. Chained

together multiple multiple, you know,

paths to to get out and to be able to

then get into to to Hugging Face. Um,

but I think it also really shows that

these models we need to deploy them to

defenders faster, right? That what we

need to have happen is far more compute

needs to go into defending than the than

attackers could bring to bear. And that

is something where I think that that is

maybe the the most important wake-up

call here.

>> Or one option I would think is to slow

down on some of the model progress to

just take a beat and say, "How did this

happen?"

>> So, I think for sure studying that and

that's actually something that we we

absolutely do and have done. And that we

we actually published a study on AI

misalignment for exactly this reason of

an AI that was doing things that we

didn't expect. And there we actually

took it down, we studied it, we

increased our alignment techniques, and

that that's something where we've

brought to bear for future generations.

I think that learning from iterative

deployment is very important, right? To

really understand how these systems

operate in the real world, but to be

very responsive there. And so we are

always increasing our safeguards, we're

always increasing our alignment.

>> There is this growing hate towards AI.

We've seen it in so many places, right?

Booing at graduations, people at data

center sites. I think things like with

this hugging face example happens and

people they freak out again. Does that

sentiment reach you and affect how you

make decisions in these kind of times?

>> Look, we pay a lot of attention to how

people are reacting to AI, and I think

that we view

our goal as to empower people to live

better lives. Like that is what we want

AI to do, and I think that when as we

build this technology, we think about

that human first element of how can we

build technology that people really do

benefit from? And so I think part of

this is about helping people see, and

some of this is about, you know, on us

to really communicate better, but also

really make sure that we're we're

walking the walk.

>> Yeah, cuz I think that what we've been

talking about is this expansion of

ChatGPT to be so much more in someone's

lives, right? The voice is such a big

part of that. You can interact with it

in so many more places. But if you don't

have the trust of users going forward,

is all of this progress anything?

>> I think trust is key. No question. I

think that that is something we feel we

have to earn. We have to earn that every

day. And if you look at the choices that

we make like within the building, like

the people that we have, they come here

for this mission, right? To ensure that

this technology is beneficial for

everyone. But it's it's really how how

it operates. And I actually would love

for more people to or, you know, if

people could see the way that we make

decisions and how thoughtful people are

about how do we build trust? How do we

do the right thing for people, for the

world, for the country? And uh

that's what motivated us to start this

company and why we're still doing it.

>> That's a great

great place to wrap.

Thanks so much, Greg.

>> [laughter]

>> I just trained my AI to do terrible work

as a journalist.

Um, we're going to mute that. One thing

on trust though, because I want to tell

you about a short video I did a few

weeks ago on just telling people simply

you can use temporary chats to have

conversations about more confidential

information if you're worried about chat

GPT or the model being trained on it.

You can use these temporary chats. And I

want to read you a few of the comments

from viewers.

They were just very confident. It's all

saved. It's a load of bollocks. How do

we know they honor incognito mode?

There's this

feeling like there's not a lot of trust

there.

>> First of all, again, we always want to

hear it. And actually, just to talk a

little little bit about the business and

enterprise side, that's an area that

we've really focused on the same

question, right? That every company

feels like their data is that is the

company, right? That is their remote.

That is what they've been investing in

for how long they've been a long around.

And they really care about knowing

exactly where that data is. And so that

we have been building technological

solutions to think about how can you

have encryption? How can you have

verifiable, auditable guarantees around

only AI will be able to review this this

this data or whatever that the

guarantees are. But I think that just

more broadly that it does come down to

not even just about the AI industry,

right? But the technology industry

generally. And I think that we inherit

some of the sort of baggage that has

come from sort of

events of the past or how people

perceive this industry. And so all all

that I can say is that we're we're we

care a lot. We're here to help.

>> To the people who specifically are

worried that you guys are not honoring

your word on temporary chat or temporary

mode, does it work?

>> Yes. I any whatever guarantees we make

and again, there's some nuance. You

should read it. Like we try to make this

very clear to people. Like that that is

that is what we stand by.

>> Chat, can you

ask the last question here to Greg.

Sure. Greg, one last thing. When you

share the unease, the I didn't ask for

this feeling, what's the concrete step

you're taking now to earn that trust? We

are making technological investments to

make it auditable, verifiable, and

cryptographically secure how data is

handled in

relevant situations. And so, this is

something that will take some time and

that we're working through the details

of exactly where it rolls out and how,

but this is a core investment that we've

been making for this entire year and

we'll have more to share in upcoming

weeks. So, I think it's pretty clear

from this that Brockman's ambitions are

not to create an app, but an operating

system, an AI operating system, [music]

and the devices that run your life.

>> Well, the future's going to be great.

>> Marketing alert. Marketing alert.

Marketing alert.